January 26, 2021 • 48 mins
On this Back Story Dana Lewis speaks to the daughter of Boris Nemtsov who was murdered in front of the Kremlin. Zhanna speaks of a the birth of a new national political movement in Russia and the desire to remove Putin.
And The Former Prime Minister Mikhail Kasyanov calls on the EU to pursue sanctions to force the release of jailed opposition leader Alexei Navalny.
Plus, analysis of what comes next by Russia expert Alex Kokcharov.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Your father was killed on the 27th of February,
2015 in front of the Kremlin gundown there.
It must've been a terriblemoment for you and probably
still is.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
It was, uh, uh, the most dramatic moment, uh, in my
life.
I think it was, uh, and it isstill, it's a big tragedy for
myself.
And at the same time, it was adecisive moment.
Speaker 1 (00:33):
Hi everyone.
And welcome to backstory.
I'm Dana Lewis.
On this edition, we talked to ayoung lady whose father was one
of the leading oppositionfigures in Russia.
And for speaking up and speakingout in Putin's Russia, it cost
him his life.
Also the former prime minister,who later tried to run for
president and unseat Putin.
(00:54):
He speaks on the recentdemonstrations across the
country corruption in thejailing of opposition figure
Alexei, Navalny, and an expertview on what happens now or at
John, and then SOF joins us nowfrom Nizhny Novgorod John, how
(01:14):
are you?
I'm fine.
Thank you.
And you very well.
I mean, it, it, your father waskilled on the 27th of February,
2015 in front of the Kremlin gundown there.
It must have been a terriblemoment for you and probably
still is.
Speaker 2 (01:31):
It was, uh, uh, the most dramatic moment, uh, in my
life.
Um, so you wanna, you want totalk about my feelings, what I
felt when I, uh, learned that myfather had been assassinated?
Yes, I think it was, uh, and itis still, it's a big tragedy for
(01:55):
myself.
And at the same time, it was adecisive moment.
Uh, back then, uh, there was onequestion, should I, uh, keep,
uh, silent or should I act, andback then it was a moral choice
(02:17):
for me.
And I understood perfectly well,uh, those risks, which are
normally associated with, uh,being outspoken in Russia.
Uh, and so I thought forprobably one or two days and
(02:37):
realized that, uh, I would becalled otherwise, uh, it would
be a betrayal of my father, andthat's why I, uh, played an
active role in the wholeinvestigation.
Of course, it was pretty clearfor me that no proper would be
(03:00):
conducted, uh, but I did what Icould to push it forward.
So we initiated, uh, and weemployed some mechanisms of
international oversight, uh, ofthis investigation and the
parliamentary assembly of thecouncil of Europe, uh, approved
(03:22):
of a resolution.
And it basically outlined, uh,uh, those drawbacks, which, uh,
they were in the wholeinvestigation.
Speaker 3 (03:34):
So the drug that the chief drawback would be if the
state doesn't want to cooperateand they're not sincere in
finding the killer is they'renot going to be found,
Speaker 2 (03:44):
They are not sincere.
They can do that.
I think it's not a complicatedcase for them, uh, but, uh, they
don't want to, uh, identify mostof months, or of course they
don't want to identify themotive behind the investigation.
These two questions, uh, stillremain and answered.
(04:09):
So we, uh, had, uh, the sameprocedure at, uh, there at the
OSI.
So, uh, we have the officialposition of two important
international organizationsregarding this investigation,
but I still believe, uh, that,uh, the truth will come out.
(04:32):
Uh, but I understand that isalmost impossible that we will,
uh, get the truth under thecurrent political leadership in
Russia
Speaker 3 (04:43):
Who killed your dad.
Do you think
Speaker 2 (04:50):
You wanna, you wanna, you want me to say that, uh,
they S uh, killing was, um, uh,authorized or directly ordered
by legitimate Putin?
I don't know because we, uh, no,uh, we, we don't know a lot, or
we know very little about allthe circumstances, uh, of, uh,
(05:15):
of, of this murder, of thisbrutal murder.
Uh, we know some, uh, somepeople who were directly
involved and, uh, they were bythe way identified, but, uh,
Speaker 3 (05:30):
Well, these are, these are the guys, these are
the guys who pulled the trigger.
Speaker 2 (05:33):
I mean, I mean, we have to basically, uh, not we,
but the central investigativecommittee has to, uh,
interrogate, uh, rums on Kuduro,uh, who I believe was directly
involved in my father's asdestination.
And it was my request.
(05:55):
I filed this requests on anumber of occasions, but of
course the central investigativecommittee, uh, does not do its
job properly and they are doingit intentionally because, uh,
effectively, uh, there, uh, topRussian officials blocked this
investigation and it is itself acrime to block, uh, criminal
(06:20):
investigations and at least, uh,and I, I said it six years ago
and I would like to repeat itright now that[inaudible] best
political responsibility for myfather's murder.
Speaker 3 (06:37):
I knew your dad.
And, uh, I liked him a lot as ajournalist for NBC.
I was based there originally in1998 when the financial crash
happened.
Uh, and he was one of the firstpeople I interviewed and he
talked about how he was removedas deputy prime minister,
because he wanted to close allthe banks down, all of these
(06:58):
corrupt dozens and dozens ofbanks.
And, uh, they were trying toclean up the system and in the
end, Yeltsin buckled under thepressure probably of oligarchy.
And, uh, but, but then Ifollowed your father also in
Sochi when he ran for mayor, um,and asked him why you, you know,
look, he was a governor of newJanine Novgorod region, and then
(07:19):
he was deputy prime minister,and then suddenly he's running
for mayor in Sochi.
And the question was why, andobviously we knew the Olympics
were going to go there, but, um,following him around in Sochi
and Gary Kasparov was there.
Um, and he just said, look, wehave to start somewhere again to
build a bridge of democracy, afree media, um, and then return
(07:47):
Russia to back to developmentagain, instead of this stillborn
dictatorship.
Um, and he was deeply inspiredto do that.
So it's a terrible loss forRussia, because if he had stayed
as a, as a big political playerin Russia, don't you think it
would be a very differentcountry today?
Speaker 2 (08:10):
So, first of all, I would like to follow up on, uh,
your, uh, uh, most recentremarks and just add to it that
my father, uh, also, uh,participated in the original
elections in the city ofjaroslava and in 2013, he won
their elections.
He had got elected to the, uh,regional parliament or, uh, of
(08:35):
the province of Urus Lovell.
And he worked there quiteeffectively, I should say yes.
And, uh, I think that, uh, hewas not, uh, an arrogant person
and he, uh, wanted to dosomething, uh, on any level and
he was effective and he had alot of experience in government
(08:58):
governance, uh, for example, theregion of[inaudible].
Um, so, uh, it's difficult.
Uh, I would say yes, if, if myfather, uh, had been elected
president, uh, in 2000, we wouldhave lived in a totally
different country.
(09:19):
Uh, of course,
Speaker 3 (09:21):
What was the point of, and by the way, many people
thought that Boris Yeltsin wasgrooming him to take over, um,
and that he would be presidentone day.
And so it was this greatopportunity missed by, I think a
lot of people think, but whatwas the point of silencing him,
uh, within assassination,because he had been critical of
the administration and Putin andthe Kremlin for many years, what
(09:42):
was the point of it?
Speaker 2 (09:46):
We can make guesses, but we cannot be so sure of our
guesses.
Uh, so you know that, uh, Russiais a repressive state, uh, it's
governed by an autocrat.
And of course, all, uh, leadersof the Russian opposition are
(10:09):
under threat and on the attack,they can be killed.
They can be thrown into prison,they can be poisoned.
So it was the case with Alex[inaudible], uh, he was poisoned
with Navi, choke a nerve agent,but he managed to survive and
was a miracle.
(10:29):
So it is how old, uh, autocraticStates, uh, behave.
There is nothing new about it.
They're afraid of losing powerand the ultimate goal for any
older crowds and put in is by noway, an exception is to retain
(10:50):
power presumably full life.
So, and of course they areafraid of, uh, any people who,
uh, oppose, who are critical ofthe government, uh, why they,
why they, why they chose myfather as a target that I don't
know, I want to get an answer tothis question.
(11:10):
It's an important question.
Uh, but he was the powerfulvoice and he was, he was an
experienced politician.
Speaker 3 (11:19):
He was a powerful voice for sure.
And I completely agree with you,John.
And some people say maybebecause that's when the invasion
of Ukraine was taking place inthe Crimea and he had, he had
certain facts on what wassticking out.
Speaker 2 (11:31):
I would, I would, I would, I would say different
things regarding what you'vejust said about Ukraine.
Yes.
He was working, uh, on aninvestigative report about
Russia's involvement, uh,military actual involvement into
Ukraine, but, uh, you have tobear in mind.
(11:52):
Uh, their political are in 2014and 2015.
It was very different from whatis happening now because Putin,
uh, has lost a lot of hislegitimacy since 2015.
So not back then.
Uh, the level of support ofPutin was really high.
It was literally 87%.
(12:13):
So, and, uh, he, uh, of coursein this environment, it was way
easier to attack, uh,opposition, politicians.
And I also think that probablyputting head something personal
with my father, because myfather, uh, I would put it this
way.
(12:34):
I made really impolite remarks,uh, uh, in regard to Putin, uh,
and probably he was reallyoffended with his remarks.
I think that he takes a lot ofthings really personally,
Speaker 3 (12:48):
If I can ask you then, are there parallels with
Alexei Navalny because Nevadaneeds video of corruption in the
Kremlin and Putin Putin'swallets, where he talks in
names, names about people whohave kept money and shadowy
offshore companies for VladimirPutin, this billion dollar
palace.
I mean, he is called him a thiefand basically called him a mafia
(13:12):
leader.
Um, it is very personal.
Speaker 2 (13:15):
I would S I would add to that.
He calls him a very old man, andthat is really personal.
Uh, I cannot, I cannot translateit into English directly, uh,
but he, uh, he refers to him as[inaudible].
I have to, if you, if you can,if you can translate it, uh,
(13:38):
please do that.
So, uh, I think that he regardsNovalis as his enemy number one,
and of course it's because, uh,of Nevada is, uh, investigations
into grant corruption in Russia.
And of course, because of hispersonal, uh, attacks, uh, that
(14:01):
are that target mainly put, yes,I absolutely agree.
And also Nevada, he is a verypowerful politician.
Uh, he has a network of officesall across Russia and his
infrastructure is extremelyefficient.
So he managed to bring togetheractive people, very capable of
(14:26):
working and very passionateabout, uh, bringing change to
Russia.
Uh, of course all these factorscontributed to what had happened
to all[inaudible].
I mean, his attempted poisoning.
Speaker 3 (14:41):
Do you fear for his safety in prison now because
they tried to poison him inAugust?
Um, they have, he has since comeout with this videotape
embarrassing, the, and Putin andall of the people around Putin,
um, including the federalsecurity service, uh, you know,
all sorts of people ingovernment, um, what's going to
(15:02):
happen to him.
Speaker 2 (15:04):
Oh, well, I would refrain from making predictions.
Um, I am extremely worried.
Uh, I think that, uh, there arereal threats, uh, for him, and
that was the reason why I joinedthe protest in[inaudible].
(15:26):
I think our active, um,engagement can save his life.
And I'm not an exception.
I'm a citizen of my country.
Uh, I don't want my country tobe, uh, an unlovable state.
I want my country to be ademocratic state, and I want,
(15:49):
uh, our rights as citizens to beobserved by the authorities.
And of course, I feel verypersonal about Aloxi whom I
regard as my friend.
So we, uh, we were in touchbefore his detention.
So we met on a number ofoccasions and I do, I truly
(16:10):
believe that he, uh, I wouldlike him to be our next
president.
Speaker 3 (16:17):
What do you think is going to happen with these
demonstrations?
They are calling for more ofthem.
Do you think that the, and howis the Kremlin going to deal
with it?
Speaker 2 (16:26):
Oh, I am not.
Uh, um, pre-school who is put inspooks, man.
So you have to ask him about,uh, about, uh, their plans.
So my plan is the giant, uh,demonstrations on the 31st of
January in support of Alexinawildland and in support, uh, of,
(16:51):
uh, the idea that we should getrid of our older credit regime,
and we should, uh, bring change,bring democratic change to our
country.
So, uh, I know one, the onething as we are talking right
now, these news came, um, Ithink one hour, two hours ago.
(17:13):
So, um, he is, uh, Allison,Yvonne is not on the arrest till
, uh, the 15th of February.
So they hearing, uh, regarding,uh, his, um, suspended sentence,
uh, is scheduled for the 2nd ofFebruary.
Uh, but also, uh, there gonna beanother hearing on the 28th of
(17:38):
January.
So, uh, they are going to, uh,consider whether his current
arrest, uh, is in with our laws.
And so I think that is, it is areaction to massive protest that
we had last Saturday.
(17:58):
So I think that's a sign thatthe authorities I afraid of are
big crowds and they cannotignore, uh, our views, our
opinions, and the fact thatthousands of people took to the
streets, not only in mostconsent Petersburg, but the
(18:19):
nutrient auger, the biggestdemonstration, and now in the
history of our city andeverywhere in big cities, in
small cities everywhere, I thinkwe are witnessing now
affirmation of a nationwidemovement.
It is what, uh, we didn't haveseveral years ago.
Now it might evolve into yes, anationwide movement against the
(18:42):
current political regime.
Speaker 3 (18:44):
If your father was alive today, what would he be
saying?
Do you think,
Speaker 2 (18:49):
He'd be saying
Speaker 3 (18:52):
These demonstrations about an avant that they knew
each other?
Of course,
Speaker 2 (18:56):
Of course they work with the charter.
My father was very supportive orlike Saint of Alexander valine,
uh, or he would have joined theprotests for sure.
I think that he would, uh, havebeen real outspoken.
Uh, he would do everything to,uh, defend Alexina volley
because he always, uh, he alwaysdefended all political prisoners
(19:21):
and he, uh, participated in oneman protests in support for
political product, uh, prisonersall the time.
I think that, uh, he would havebeen really inspired with what,
uh, I swore last Saturday, verymartial arts,
Speaker 3 (19:40):
Knowing your dad.
I think he would be inspired.
I know he was tough and he wasopen and democratic, and I think
he would be very proud of genreNimsoft today.
So,
Speaker 2 (19:52):
So probably I will have a chance to ask him one day
though.
I'm not a religious person.
Speaker 3 (19:58):
Are you going to last question?
I know you've done journalism.
Are you going to go into,
Speaker 2 (20:04):
I'm still a journalist?
What
Speaker 3 (20:06):
Are you going to go into politics in Russia?
Speaker 2 (20:09):
Uh, no.
Uh, so I basically, I foundedthe bore center foundation for
freedom in Germany.
It's registered in Germany and,uh, now I'm focused on the
development of the abortions offoundations of freedom.
And I find this job reallyinteresting.
And I think, uh, we ha we don'thave a lot of impact because we
are a smaller organization, butwe have some input and I want to
(20:32):
grow this organization to makeit really impactful.
We have very few organizationssuch as the bore center
foundation.
Uh, it's a policy organization.
Yes, we are focused on educationon journalism next like that.
I am a journalist, uh, uh, till2020, I worked for Dutch Valley,
the German public broadcaster.
(20:53):
I interviewed the world leaders,um, in many, in many countries
of the world.
Um, now I'm, I'm a freelancejournalist and I am working on
my own projects.
Uh, basically all these projectsand I'm in English.
So I want to switch to Englishlanguage, journalism, wish me
(21:15):
luck,
Speaker 3 (21:16):
Good luck.
And really it was a privilegeknowing your dad and it's
wonderful meeting you.
And thank you so much on it.
Speaker 2 (21:24):
Thank you very much.
Have a nice day.
Good luck to you.
Speaker 3 (21:32):
All right, Mikhail, Cassiana joins me now from just
outside of Moscow.
He is a Russian politician whoserved as the prime minister, uh
, from 2000 to 2004.
And I've interviewed him manytimes and respect his opinion
very deeply on what's happeninginside Russia, Mikhail, some
stunning events, uh, on theweekend.
When you take a look at the, notjust the numbers of people, but
(21:55):
when you take a look at thelandscape of protests, I mean,
close to a hundred of them,right across the country.
Speaker 4 (22:01):
Yes.
Landscape geography as like wesay, geography is amazing.
It's never happened before inRussia in the last, last 20
years.
In fact, it's more than the 500cities in the old Russia, just,
uh, on the streets of conduit,more than a hundred cities,
people appear to, to protest, toprotest against, uh, against
(22:25):
what's what going on in Russia,in the country and protests
against arrest of AlexanderBerlin.
Speaker 3 (22:32):
What got them out there?
Is it just Navani's arrest or isthere more to it
Speaker 4 (22:38):
Deeper in fact, people already are tied to of,
um, uh, uh, and the discontentsby the circus radiating.
It has been the Kool-Aid that.
And, uh, um, I will say a littleless behavior of, of, of
authorities on many, manyrespects.
Uh, uh, I would say, uh, of, ofauthorities to establish some
(23:00):
kind of a channel forcommunication with the, with the
society.
And, uh, uh, I would say elegantbehavior, et cetera, et cetera.
But the three gov, this wasarrested of[inaudible] who after
poisoning came back to Moscowand was arrested at the airport.
People were shocked, shocked bythat.
(23:20):
And a blast on that off therecent, the movie, I would say
video reach a place, an interim[inaudible] about the corruption
route here, man, the game, ofcourse, uh, just added to these
two disrespect as well, too.
Speaker 3 (23:39):
I sat through that entire video.
Um, and I was, I thought it wasremarkable.
It's very detailed on thecorruption of, of Putin, uh,
people around him, hundreds ofmillions of dollars taken this
palace near the black sea, youknow, Putin shrugged it off this
week and kind of smirked.
(23:59):
And as you said, arrogantlyresponded, you know, maybe one
day he'd like to have a winery,but, uh, the Kremlin has just
said, all of this is false andfiction.
Is it fiction?
Or is it real?
Speaker 4 (24:12):
Yeah, all people of course believe is real.
It's not necessarily to beregistered as a, as ownership
box.
In fact, just two minutes, twomain factors that, that, uh, the
, the sky was locked aroundthat.
And, uh, but for, for, for, for,for aircraft and the final
quarter,
Speaker 3 (24:31):
No fly zone by the FSB, the federal security
service,
Speaker 4 (24:35):
Uh, it was done officially by ministry of
transportation because of theirauthority.
But of course, uh, uh, of courseI'm the, I'm the security and
the whole, the whole area isunder security of FSB or secret
service, which protects thepeople.
Um, high-level people around it.
That's why people, people ofcourse have no doubts, uh,
(24:56):
about, about it
Speaker 3 (24:57):
And are people outraged.
I mean, you know, people arestruggling during the pandemic.
The economy's not good, theirstagnation in Russia.
I think that when they take alook at this monstrous palace
that, you know, it looks likeanother Versailles, they must be
furious.
Speaker 4 (25:16):
There's not, there's not a real, I would say a major
aspect, as I said, that was likea trigger or just a decent old,
or let's say discom thing todiscontent and the people, uh,
uh, unacceptable behavior ofauthorities, et cetera.
But, you know, just corruptionin Russia is always was a
(25:38):
problem.
And, uh, a majority of, um, of,um, the generations they lived
during the corruptions of duringSoviet period.
Speaker 3 (25:47):
I mean, it's one thing, if you have corruption by
bandits, it's another thing, ifyour leader is seen to be
stealing billions of dollarsfrom people though,
Speaker 4 (25:55):
Well, young people for new generation who don't
have this in there and theirmemories, of course, for them,
it's like explosion for, for, uh, teenagers and on a cheek talk,
uh, just, uh, different moviesand the different placement
there, of course just, uh, verymuch created the whole
atmosphere around it.
(26:16):
But as I say, that's not themain issue for majority of those
people who were in the streets.
Um, now last Saturday, um,mainly that is, uh, um, uh, I
would say, uh, discontent ismaturing in their minds.
And that's what I would like tosay.
Just the main, the main issuefor these 2021 East just
(26:38):
constitutional events, electionsto state Duma.
And that could be, I would saythe critical point for the whole
historical, I would say, periodof Russia at this moment.
And this,
Speaker 3 (26:51):
The thing is that you have parliamentary elections,
the Duma, and they're coming upin September and what what's at
stake here.
Speaker 4 (26:59):
Yeah, that's, that is that's when, uh, that is the
issue when, uh, that is thepoint when people started to
understand that, uh, theirconstitutional rights, they
watch our storm or authoritiesdon't allow at all, or in
principle, don't allow people toexpress their, the, the, the, uh
, uh, position, uh, to expresstheir opinion.
(27:21):
They don't allow oppositionparties to participate.
They don't allow a position thatcandidates to participate in
elections, or even for those, uh, few, uh, which they allowed to
come in.
They just then falsified theresults.
That's what, uh, it happened inDecember, 2011 and could happen
(27:43):
2022.
Speaker 3 (27:44):
You ran for president.
So
Speaker 4 (27:48):
Parliamentary elections, when it goes in
present, they cut me fromelections.
When my supposed to grow, theyon the earliest stage one month
after registration, they caughtme because just them, the stood,
that could be a danger, but Imean, I mean, in December, 2010,
2011, there were, there was aresults.
There was a bill I'm in threeelections.
(28:09):
And then at that time, um, uh, Iwould say hundred thousand
people in Moscow appeared, uh,Pete on the streets to protest.
And at that time, uh, I, sorry,just put started to somehow to
relax the situation.
Uh, he made a decision to, Iwould say, ease registration on
(28:29):
political parties and some otherminor things.
But then when demonstrationsdisappeared from Moscow streets,
they stopped all those changesand even, uh, squeeze the whole
environment, they won't fillthem all
Speaker 3 (28:44):
Very quickly.
What do you think of Nevani?
You know, him, you've met withhim many times.
You were in a coalition with himwhere you, at one point what's
what's, what's your take on him?
I mean, he bravely came back.
I don't think a lot of people,
Speaker 4 (28:58):
His breath cross on.
That's no doubt about that.
Even for many, many people whodoubt about his, I would say
political, I would say strength.
So political political position,because sometimes people
criticize for him, for him forextreme rights, expressions, or
extreme lefts expressions, etcetera, et cetera.
But he's really a real leader ofthe, of the protests on the
(29:23):
street progress.
He's the leader of this and he'sleader of youth.
That's definitely, there is noany other of such a, I would say
it was such a popularity andhe's very brave person.
And because of his coming back,many people who didn't support
him right now change theattitude to miss Nevada that's.
Speaker 3 (29:44):
So in that video, then we'll come back to that
video for a moment.
I mean, she called Putin,abandoned a thief.
He listed all of the people withtheir pictures, with their
names, the so-called wallets,the people who store the
administration, not theadministration store, the
president's money illegally inthe shadows.
(30:08):
That seems like an act of,
Speaker 4 (30:11):
As I say, there is no doubt that a in the, right now,
the bright sister presented of aposition and no one is a, I
would say, have doubts about it.
Now that's never going to getout of prison.
Uh, I don't, I mean, the prison,
Speaker 3 (30:30):
Is he ever going to be allowed out of prison after
doing that video?
Speaker 4 (30:35):
That's interesting story right now, there is a
discussion about that.
In fact, I will tell you on thisstage, that behavior of Portugal
and the sorority with respect to, um,[inaudible] needs, I would
say freedom depends on theposition of, uh, leaders of
European union, uh, for Russia,for Puccio positional European
(30:57):
union.
It's very important Russianeconomy in a very poor position
at this moment.
And, uh, at least not inrelations, economic relations in
particular with European union,that's important issue for Mr.
Porter.
And that's why, that's why, uh,he, I feel he wants and his
(31:17):
people around.
They want, they want nobody toput the, to put to jail for a
long time, but the situationcould change.
They could somehow to reconsidertheir emotional or you to this
move in.
And somehow, somehow just to geta little bit back to the reality
(31:38):
and to even legal justice and torelease him from these, that
would say, uh, convincing whatthey just artificially created
on this stage.
And, uh, but in any case hewould not be released, uh,
completely, but it could be, hecould be put on the, in the, in
the, in that arrested at home,but not in jail.
Speaker 3 (32:00):
So you're saying the EU, which is wobbly and wavering
on Russia and sanctions.
And they met this week and theykind of came up with no
decision, which is pretty commonfor the EU, but they are going
to come to Russia.
You urge them to take thosesanctions.
Otherwise, if they don't keepthe pressure on Nevada and he
(32:22):
may spend a long time in prison,
Speaker 4 (32:23):
I have to express just the whole, the whole, I
would say, Oh, to, to, to what'shappened around my body.
When it, first of all, at theissue, number one, that is, uh,
application of, uh, of, of nerveagent luggage that is
prohibited.
And I, as I understand from allthose reports, that there is no
(32:45):
doubts of, um, uh, uh,organization of, uh, recognition
of chemical weapons that thepost maybe joked, and there was
application of this in Russia isthe same
Speaker 3 (32:56):
Chemical weapons convention.
Speaker 4 (32:59):
That is a violation of the month on national law.
That's the issue number one,which could be considered.
And secondly, of course, moreinternal issue like Noah and his
arrests there, the human rightsabuse, et cetera, but the
previous, the, the, the, the,the, the, the primary issue, of
course, Navy Nichelle,
Speaker 3 (33:18):
Ricardo Cassiana hallways, and Hunter to talk to
you.
Good to see you.
Speaker 4 (33:22):
Thank you very much.
Speaker 3 (33:27):
Alex Cook chiro is a political risk analyst, and he
knows Russia well, Belarus andother parts of Eastern Europe.
Hi, Alex, pretty remarkablescenes we've seen, uh, in Moscow
and right across the country allthe way up to a lot of our
stock.
Speaker 5 (33:45):
Uh, yes, it was quite sizable turn out, uh, in more
than a hundred cities across thecountry from Vladivostok and
Yakutsk in Eastern Russia, uh,in Yakutsk people, uh, turned up
to protest despite minus 52degrees Celsius, uh, all the way
to the Western cities ofColombian grads, Saatchi and St.
(34:07):
Petersburg.
So we wanted significantturnout.
Speaker 3 (34:11):
What do these demonstrations represent?
Is this just about the jailingof Nevada County, or is it more,
Speaker 5 (34:17):
It is a combination of factors and arrest of Nevada
was one of those factors.
Another factor was a release of,um, a film by Nevada, the steam
about allergic, uh, corruption,uh, in the Russian
administration and allergicunexplained wealth enjoyed by
(34:40):
Alex.
Have you seen the video?
Yes.
I've seen the video.
Uh,
Speaker 3 (34:43):
I think most people, I mean, I think we have to talk
about it for a minute, becausejust saying there's a film out
there is not enough.
First of all, it is almost twohours.
It is very detailed by Alexa andthe Valley and his team going
through Putin's accumulation ofextreme wealth, um, over 20
(35:08):
years.
And he named his names, he doesflow charts on, he calls them
his wallets.
Uh, he shows this palace that hehas built near the black sea
that supposedly could be abillion dollars by their
numbers, interior pictures,orders for furniture.
(35:29):
And I mean, he really directlygoes after president Putin
saying that he's a thief andhe's surrounded by thieves any
stolen from the country.
And people have to go to thestreet and fight this so that
the thievery ends it's verypowerful.
Speaker 5 (35:46):
It is.
And, uh, it's, it's a very, youknow, uh, very interested in
film and dozens of millions ofpeople worldwide, not only in
Russia have watched it, uh, itis obviously the blockbuster of,
uh, uh, you know, of Russia in2021.
It's been watched by nearly ahundred million people, which is
remarkable when, when you thinkabout it, if she
Speaker 3 (36:10):
Gonna get out of jail, I mean, I think that Putin
and the Kremlin knowing them theway I do, and I was in the
country for 12 years.
Um, the Putin's can not takethis not personally.
Um, and I think they're going tothrow away the key.
Speaker 5 (36:28):
I think it is increasingly likely that Nevada
only will remain in prison foran extended period of time.
The fact that he was reportedlytargets of an assassination back
in August last year when, uh, hewas poisoned re again,
reportedly with a Novick choppychemical agents back inside in
(36:49):
Siberia suggests that, uh, youknow, the rust, some strong, um,
decisions, uh, which are made byvery senior people in Russia,
uh, regarding the Valley,
Speaker 3 (37:05):
He says Putin would have had to sign off.
There's just, nobody else wouldhave allowed a political
assassination to take place.
Speaker 5 (37:11):
Uh, pretty much so.
Yes.
And, uh, it does sound crediblethat, uh, um, an order of
political assassination of thismagnitude would come from very
high up in the Russian, in theRussian leadership,
Speaker 3 (37:27):
If you're good at managing risk and assessing risk
in Russia, is this just anotherattack or do you consider it a
new chapter because we've hadjournalist and it pulled a coast
Gaia that was shot at herapartment before because of her
reporting on Chechnya, Boris,Nimsoft an opposition figure
killed, I mean, literally rightin front of the Kremlin.
(37:50):
Um, but I mean, the Valley is avery high profile opposition
figure for them to take him outnow.
For what reason?
Why,
Speaker 5 (38:03):
Honestly, we don't know why, you know, if there was
an assassination order, uh, wedon't know why the timing was in
August, 2020.
The fact that Nevada hassurvived it and recovered and
decided to come back to Russia,um, obviously sends a strong
signal to the Kremlin that heintends to fight, and he intends
(38:26):
to, uh, continue his oppositionto the Kremlin and to poutine.
And it only sends signals to theKremlin that, uh, in order, uh,
to mitigate, uh, Nevada andother opposition figures, uh,
the criminal Kremlin must dosomething.
And I think it looksincreasingly likely that he will
(38:46):
stay in prison for an extendedperiod of time.
And the fact that, you know, Ithink the fact that the way this
large protests, uh, it's only,uh, it's only adds to this
because if now Nevada said free,it would suggest that the
protests work and that theKremmling, uh, can be pressured
(39:09):
into releasing, uh, arrested,uh, political opponents by
large-scale turnouts, uh, uh,during protests.
Speaker 3 (39:18):
Do you think that the Kremlin and Putin are caught in
a corner?
I mean, they said that theywould arrest him the Valley.
If he came back, probably hopingthat he wouldn't come back, he
came back, he forced their hand,and now they're stuck because if
they let them out, they look toosoft and that's not a good thing
in Russia if they keep them in,it's going to keep firing the
street and protests.
Speaker 5 (39:39):
Yes.
But I think, I think thecalculation is very similar with
calculations, which werehappening back in 2003 with, uh,
businessmen Mikhail.
Khodorkovsky there have beenthreats of his arrest, which he
ignored.
And he came back to Russia.
And despite the fact that he wasgiven multiple warnings, that
(40:00):
there will be prosecutionagainst him, unless he stops
pursuing political goals, uh,and leaves the country
altogether.
Uh, he would face an arrest.
He disobeyed, he decided tocontinue, uh, with his political
agenda and he was arrested andhe spent more than 10 years in
(40:22):
prison.
And I think it's increasinglylikely I see these parallels
with Khodorkovsky.
And I think it's increasinglylikely that the Kremlin will,
uh, we'll, we'll keep Navantiain prison for an extended period
of time.
Despite the fact that, uh,eight, eight, eight is likely to
be a trigger to, uh, protests.
Speaker 3 (40:45):
How do you read Novotny?
I mean,
Speaker 5 (40:47):
Kremlin's perspective, the protests are
not life-threatening.
They were not yet the way theywere quite significant, quite
large, but, uh, you know, inMoscow, there are different
estimates between 20 and 40,maybe 50,000 people turned up 15
million people, 50, even 50,000is not significant for protests.
(41:10):
So from Kremlin's perspective,uh, Nevada only doesn't come on
the streets.
Um, so, uh, he cannot mobilizeenough people to create genuine
threats to the Kremlin,
Speaker 3 (41:24):
But he's a popular figure.
And they've just made a verypopular now.
I mean, they've made them, somepeople have even used the word
Mandela.
I don't think he's Mendelafigure yet, but he's certainly
in re in Russia terms, he's nota holder Kowski who was a rich
oligarch who ran oil companiesand was arrested off his private
jet.
I mean, Nevada money is, is apretty common guy.
He's a lawyer.
(41:44):
And you know, he's not livingbeyond his means.
And suddenly a lot of Russianswill identify with him and
support him.
I mean, you've got videos on TikTOK where school kids are taking
down portraits of Putin andputting up portraits of Nevada
County and they have receivedmillions of views.
Speaker 5 (42:01):
Yes, nav only is quite popular, but we have to
remember that his popularitymostly lies with the urban
middle is in Moscow St.
Petersburg and other largercities across Russia.
And he is still some way offfrom, you know, popularity
amongst various social classesacross the country, live in, you
(42:26):
know, across different types oflocalities.
Speaker 3 (42:29):
Although you saw protests and 11 times zones.
I mean, I don't want tooverstate the demonstrations
either because I think they arestill relatively small, but the,
the width and the breadth ofthem across the country shows
you that he is tapped intodigital media.
He is tapped into social media,um, and people now are not
getting their news on Navalnyfrom the main Kremlin television
(42:52):
stations who get theirprogramming from the Kremlin.
I mean, this guy has realsupport out there in social
media with young people, uh,with different age groups in the
demonstration.
So you can't exactly put a limiton this and say, it's going to
end a certain way.
We really don't know, do we it'sthe beginning.
Speaker 5 (43:12):
Yes.
Uh, and I'm not going to disputethis, uh, the fact that these
protests took place across theentire country in, in very
diverse cities.
And, uh, there were, you know, alot of protests, a lot of
protests who actually turned upfor the first time to protest,
which I think is quiteimportant.
(43:33):
Uh, but from the prominenceperspective, it's still not
enough to, um, to generategenuine threats to the continued
, uh, uh, rule of the, of theruling elite.
So of Putin and hisadministration
Speaker 3 (43:48):
Read is right.
And I think the Kremlin will digin here and they're not going to
give any ground which leads tomore confrontation and more
demonstrations in the meantime,last question to you because you
deal with risk and you, you dealin, uh, with corporate risk as
well.
A lot of people, I mean, foreigncompanies, a lot of them left
Russia anyway, with, with thefirst rounds of sanctions.
(44:10):
But do you think that there willbe more sanctions because there
are certainly a call for that?
Speaker 5 (44:15):
Well, we've seen these calls for more sanctions
by the European unionspecifically in response to, um,
you know, to, to, to, to, toNevada is the rest and to the
use of heavy force againstprotestors.
But also we have to rememberthat, uh, there are calls, um,
for new sanctions in the U S andthey STEM from, uh, other things
(44:40):
, uh, which also includeallegations of cyber attacks by,
uh, reportedly Russian actorsagainst us government and us
private sector funds.
Uh, the cyber attacks, well,very much large scale, and there
have been statements from the,at that time.
It was still, um, we, uh, teamof, uh, president elect by the
(45:04):
now president Biden that therewill be consequences and that
there will be, uh, sanctionscoming in response to these, um,
incidents.
So I think we're likely to seemore threats of sanctions and
potentially more sanctions.
But the big question is what thesanctions will be from the
(45:25):
European union.
I think personal sanctionsagainst individuals in the, uh,
in the criminal administrationare more likely rather than, uh,
economic sanctions.
There are a lot of businessinterests in the European union,
which, uh, still favor doingbusiness in Russia.
We know that Russia stillsupplies a lot of gas and oil to
(45:46):
the European union and theinfrastructure projects in
place, despite the fact thatthat's subject to us sanctions.
Um, so I think is going to be avery mixed picture.
Uh, the European union sanctionsare less likely to be economic
and more personal targetedsanctions against the specific
individuals.
Speaker 3 (46:05):
Let's end where we started when you saw those
images on the weekend and howmany different cities they were
in and watch them unfold throughthe day.
What was your reaction?
What did you think?
Speaker 5 (46:21):
It was impressive.
I expected that there will beprotests, uh, on, on that day,
but I didn't expect that theywill be, you know, across the
entire country across, uh, somany cities, over a hundred
cities across Russia, and theywill be such a big turnout.
And also I got the impressionthat the protesters this time
(46:46):
around, uh, appear to besomewhat more assertive in their
actions and less frightened ofthe police.
And this could mean that couldbe, can be potential change in
the way these protests, uh, uh,take place in the coming weeks.
It will be another protest on31st of January.
It's a good
Speaker 3 (47:05):
Point because I was watching in Moscow where they
were fighting back with policeSt.
Petersburg, where they werepelting them, showering them,
burying them with snowballs andfighting and pushing.
And, uh, yeah, it's, it's gotthe potential to kind of spin
into a more violent showdown asthese continue Alex Cook tariff.
(47:29):
Thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (47:30):
Thank you so much.
Thanks a lot.
Have a good evening.
And that's our second backstoryon Russia unrest.
So much to play for in thecountry.
Putin is getting old and itfeels like he's been the
president forever 20 years isforever polls show.
Most Russians want change.
And the question is, will therebe a peaceful transition or just
(47:52):
more repression and stagnationin that great country?
I'm Dana Lewis, please subscribeto the podcast and I'll talk to
you again.
Your father was killed on the 27th of February,
2015 in front of the Kremlin gundown there.
It must've been a terriblemoment for you and probably
still is.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
It was, uh, uh, the most dramatic moment, uh, in my
life.
I think it was, uh, and it isstill, it's a big tragedy for
myself.
And at the same time, it was adecisive moment.
Speaker 1 (00:33):
Hi everyone.
And welcome to backstory.
I'm Dana Lewis.
On this edition, we talked to ayoung lady whose father was one
of the leading oppositionfigures in Russia.
And for speaking up and speakingout in Putin's Russia, it cost
him his life.
Also the former prime minister,who later tried to run for
president and unseat Putin.
(00:54):
He speaks on the recentdemonstrations across the
country corruption in thejailing of opposition figure
Alexei, Navalny, and an expertview on what happens now or at
John, and then SOF joins us nowfrom Nizhny Novgorod John, how
(01:14):
are you?
I'm fine.
Thank you.
And you very well.
I mean, it, it, your father waskilled on the 27th of February,
2015 in front of the Kremlin gundown there.
It must have been a terriblemoment for you and probably
still is.
Speaker 2 (01:31):
It was, uh, uh, the most dramatic moment, uh, in my
life.
Um, so you wanna, you want totalk about my feelings, what I
felt when I, uh, learned that myfather had been assassinated?
Yes, I think it was, uh, and itis still, it's a big tragedy for
(01:55):
myself.
And at the same time, it was adecisive moment.
Uh, back then, uh, there was onequestion, should I, uh, keep,
uh, silent or should I act, andback then it was a moral choice
(02:17):
for me.
And I understood perfectly well,uh, those risks, which are
normally associated with, uh,being outspoken in Russia.
Uh, and so I thought forprobably one or two days and
(02:37):
realized that, uh, I would becalled otherwise, uh, it would
be a betrayal of my father, andthat's why I, uh, played an
active role in the wholeinvestigation.
Of course, it was pretty clearfor me that no proper would be
(03:00):
conducted, uh, but I did what Icould to push it forward.
So we initiated, uh, and weemployed some mechanisms of
international oversight, uh, ofthis investigation and the
parliamentary assembly of thecouncil of Europe, uh, approved
(03:22):
of a resolution.
And it basically outlined, uh,uh, those drawbacks, which, uh,
they were in the wholeinvestigation.
Speaker 3 (03:34):
So the drug that the chief drawback would be if the
state doesn't want to cooperateand they're not sincere in
finding the killer is they'renot going to be found,
Speaker 2 (03:44):
They are not sincere.
They can do that.
I think it's not a complicatedcase for them, uh, but, uh, they
don't want to, uh, identify mostof months, or of course they
don't want to identify themotive behind the investigation.
These two questions, uh, stillremain and answered.
(04:09):
So we, uh, had, uh, the sameprocedure at, uh, there at the
OSI.
So, uh, we have the officialposition of two important
international organizationsregarding this investigation,
but I still believe, uh, that,uh, the truth will come out.
(04:32):
Uh, but I understand that isalmost impossible that we will,
uh, get the truth under thecurrent political leadership in
Russia
Speaker 3 (04:43):
Who killed your dad.
Do you think
Speaker 2 (04:50):
You wanna, you wanna, you want me to say that, uh,
they S uh, killing was, um, uh,authorized or directly ordered
by legitimate Putin?
I don't know because we, uh, no,uh, we, we don't know a lot, or
we know very little about allthe circumstances, uh, of, uh,
(05:15):
of, of this murder, of thisbrutal murder.
Uh, we know some, uh, somepeople who were directly
involved and, uh, they were bythe way identified, but, uh,
Speaker 3 (05:30):
Well, these are, these are the guys, these are
the guys who pulled the trigger.
Speaker 2 (05:33):
I mean, I mean, we have to basically, uh, not we,
but the central investigativecommittee has to, uh,
interrogate, uh, rums on Kuduro,uh, who I believe was directly
involved in my father's asdestination.
And it was my request.
(05:55):
I filed this requests on anumber of occasions, but of
course the central investigativecommittee, uh, does not do its
job properly and they are doingit intentionally because, uh,
effectively, uh, there, uh, topRussian officials blocked this
investigation and it is itself acrime to block, uh, criminal
(06:20):
investigations and at least, uh,and I, I said it six years ago
and I would like to repeat itright now that[inaudible] best
political responsibility for myfather's murder.
Speaker 3 (06:37):
I knew your dad.
And, uh, I liked him a lot as ajournalist for NBC.
I was based there originally in1998 when the financial crash
happened.
Uh, and he was one of the firstpeople I interviewed and he
talked about how he was removedas deputy prime minister,
because he wanted to close allthe banks down, all of these
(06:58):
corrupt dozens and dozens ofbanks.
And, uh, they were trying toclean up the system and in the
end, Yeltsin buckled under thepressure probably of oligarchy.
And, uh, but, but then Ifollowed your father also in
Sochi when he ran for mayor, um,and asked him why you, you know,
look, he was a governor of newJanine Novgorod region, and then
(07:19):
he was deputy prime minister,and then suddenly he's running
for mayor in Sochi.
And the question was why, andobviously we knew the Olympics
were going to go there, but, um,following him around in Sochi
and Gary Kasparov was there.
Um, and he just said, look, wehave to start somewhere again to
build a bridge of democracy, afree media, um, and then return
(07:47):
Russia to back to developmentagain, instead of this stillborn
dictatorship.
Um, and he was deeply inspiredto do that.
So it's a terrible loss forRussia, because if he had stayed
as a, as a big political playerin Russia, don't you think it
would be a very differentcountry today?
Speaker 2 (08:10):
So, first of all, I would like to follow up on, uh,
your, uh, uh, most recentremarks and just add to it that
my father, uh, also, uh,participated in the original
elections in the city ofjaroslava and in 2013, he won
their elections.
He had got elected to the, uh,regional parliament or, uh, of
(08:35):
the province of Urus Lovell.
And he worked there quiteeffectively, I should say yes.
And, uh, I think that, uh, hewas not, uh, an arrogant person
and he, uh, wanted to dosomething, uh, on any level and
he was effective and he had alot of experience in government
(08:58):
governance, uh, for example, theregion of[inaudible].
Um, so, uh, it's difficult.
Uh, I would say yes, if, if myfather, uh, had been elected
president, uh, in 2000, we wouldhave lived in a totally
different country.
(09:19):
Uh, of course,
Speaker 3 (09:21):
What was the point of, and by the way, many people
thought that Boris Yeltsin wasgrooming him to take over, um,
and that he would be presidentone day.
And so it was this greatopportunity missed by, I think a
lot of people think, but whatwas the point of silencing him,
uh, within assassination,because he had been critical of
the administration and Putin andthe Kremlin for many years, what
(09:42):
was the point of it?
Speaker 2 (09:46):
We can make guesses, but we cannot be so sure of our
guesses.
Uh, so you know that, uh, Russiais a repressive state, uh, it's
governed by an autocrat.
And of course, all, uh, leadersof the Russian opposition are
(10:09):
under threat and on the attack,they can be killed.
They can be thrown into prison,they can be poisoned.
So it was the case with Alex[inaudible], uh, he was poisoned
with Navi, choke a nerve agent,but he managed to survive and
was a miracle.
(10:29):
So it is how old, uh, autocraticStates, uh, behave.
There is nothing new about it.
They're afraid of losing powerand the ultimate goal for any
older crowds and put in is by noway, an exception is to retain
(10:50):
power presumably full life.
So, and of course they areafraid of, uh, any people who,
uh, oppose, who are critical ofthe government, uh, why they,
why they, why they chose myfather as a target that I don't
know, I want to get an answer tothis question.
(11:10):
It's an important question.
Uh, but he was the powerfulvoice and he was, he was an
experienced politician.
Speaker 3 (11:19):
He was a powerful voice for sure.
And I completely agree with you,John.
And some people say maybebecause that's when the invasion
of Ukraine was taking place inthe Crimea and he had, he had
certain facts on what wassticking out.
Speaker 2 (11:31):
I would, I would, I would, I would say different
things regarding what you'vejust said about Ukraine.
Yes.
He was working, uh, on aninvestigative report about
Russia's involvement, uh,military actual involvement into
Ukraine, but, uh, you have tobear in mind.
(11:52):
Uh, their political are in 2014and 2015.
It was very different from whatis happening now because Putin,
uh, has lost a lot of hislegitimacy since 2015.
So not back then.
Uh, the level of support ofPutin was really high.
It was literally 87%.
(12:13):
So, and, uh, he, uh, of coursein this environment, it was way
easier to attack, uh,opposition, politicians.
And I also think that probablyputting head something personal
with my father, because myfather, uh, I would put it this
way.
(12:34):
I made really impolite remarks,uh, uh, in regard to Putin, uh,
and probably he was reallyoffended with his remarks.
I think that he takes a lot ofthings really personally,
Speaker 3 (12:48):
If I can ask you then, are there parallels with
Alexei Navalny because Nevadaneeds video of corruption in the
Kremlin and Putin Putin'swallets, where he talks in
names, names about people whohave kept money and shadowy
offshore companies for VladimirPutin, this billion dollar
palace.
I mean, he is called him a thiefand basically called him a mafia
(13:12):
leader.
Um, it is very personal.
Speaker 2 (13:15):
I would S I would add to that.
He calls him a very old man, andthat is really personal.
Uh, I cannot, I cannot translateit into English directly, uh,
but he, uh, he refers to him as[inaudible].
I have to, if you, if you can,if you can translate it, uh,
(13:38):
please do that.
So, uh, I think that he regardsNovalis as his enemy number one,
and of course it's because, uh,of Nevada is, uh, investigations
into grant corruption in Russia.
And of course, because of hispersonal, uh, attacks, uh, that
(14:01):
are that target mainly put, yes,I absolutely agree.
And also Nevada, he is a verypowerful politician.
Uh, he has a network of officesall across Russia and his
infrastructure is extremelyefficient.
So he managed to bring togetheractive people, very capable of
(14:26):
working and very passionateabout, uh, bringing change to
Russia.
Uh, of course all these factorscontributed to what had happened
to all[inaudible].
I mean, his attempted poisoning.
Speaker 3 (14:41):
Do you fear for his safety in prison now because
they tried to poison him inAugust?
Um, they have, he has since comeout with this videotape
embarrassing, the, and Putin andall of the people around Putin,
um, including the federalsecurity service, uh, you know,
all sorts of people ingovernment, um, what's going to
(15:02):
happen to him.
Speaker 2 (15:04):
Oh, well, I would refrain from making predictions.
Um, I am extremely worried.
Uh, I think that, uh, there arereal threats, uh, for him, and
that was the reason why I joinedthe protest in[inaudible].
(15:26):
I think our active, um,engagement can save his life.
And I'm not an exception.
I'm a citizen of my country.
Uh, I don't want my country tobe, uh, an unlovable state.
I want my country to be ademocratic state, and I want,
(15:49):
uh, our rights as citizens to beobserved by the authorities.
And of course, I feel verypersonal about Aloxi whom I
regard as my friend.
So we, uh, we were in touchbefore his detention.
So we met on a number ofoccasions and I do, I truly
(16:10):
believe that he, uh, I wouldlike him to be our next
president.
Speaker 3 (16:17):
What do you think is going to happen with these
demonstrations?
They are calling for more ofthem.
Do you think that the, and howis the Kremlin going to deal
with it?
Speaker 2 (16:26):
Oh, I am not.
Uh, um, pre-school who is put inspooks, man.
So you have to ask him about,uh, about, uh, their plans.
So my plan is the giant, uh,demonstrations on the 31st of
January in support of Alexinawildland and in support, uh, of,
(16:51):
uh, the idea that we should getrid of our older credit regime,
and we should, uh, bring change,bring democratic change to our
country.
So, uh, I know one, the onething as we are talking right
now, these news came, um, Ithink one hour, two hours ago.
(17:13):
So, um, he is, uh, Allison,Yvonne is not on the arrest till
, uh, the 15th of February.
So they hearing, uh, regarding,uh, his, um, suspended sentence,
uh, is scheduled for the 2nd ofFebruary.
Uh, but also, uh, there gonna beanother hearing on the 28th of
(17:38):
January.
So, uh, they are going to, uh,consider whether his current
arrest, uh, is in with our laws.
And so I think that is, it is areaction to massive protest that
we had last Saturday.
(17:58):
So I think that's a sign thatthe authorities I afraid of are
big crowds and they cannotignore, uh, our views, our
opinions, and the fact thatthousands of people took to the
streets, not only in mostconsent Petersburg, but the
(18:19):
nutrient auger, the biggestdemonstration, and now in the
history of our city andeverywhere in big cities, in
small cities everywhere, I thinkwe are witnessing now
affirmation of a nationwidemovement.
It is what, uh, we didn't haveseveral years ago.
Now it might evolve into yes, anationwide movement against the
(18:42):
current political regime.
Speaker 3 (18:44):
If your father was alive today, what would he be
saying?
Do you think,
Speaker 2 (18:49):
He'd be saying
Speaker 3 (18:52):
These demonstrations about an avant that they knew
each other?
Of course,
Speaker 2 (18:56):
Of course they work with the charter.
My father was very supportive orlike Saint of Alexander valine,
uh, or he would have joined theprotests for sure.
I think that he would, uh, havebeen real outspoken.
Uh, he would do everything to,uh, defend Alexina volley
because he always, uh, he alwaysdefended all political prisoners
(19:21):
and he, uh, participated in oneman protests in support for
political product, uh, prisonersall the time.
I think that, uh, he would havebeen really inspired with what,
uh, I swore last Saturday, verymartial arts,
Speaker 3 (19:40):
Knowing your dad.
I think he would be inspired.
I know he was tough and he wasopen and democratic, and I think
he would be very proud of genreNimsoft today.
So,
Speaker 2 (19:52):
So probably I will have a chance to ask him one day
though.
I'm not a religious person.
Speaker 3 (19:58):
Are you going to last question?
I know you've done journalism.
Are you going to go into,
Speaker 2 (20:04):
I'm still a journalist?
What
Speaker 3 (20:06):
Are you going to go into politics in Russia?
Speaker 2 (20:09):
Uh, no.
Uh, so I basically, I foundedthe bore center foundation for
freedom in Germany.
It's registered in Germany and,uh, now I'm focused on the
development of the abortions offoundations of freedom.
And I find this job reallyinteresting.
And I think, uh, we ha we don'thave a lot of impact because we
are a smaller organization, butwe have some input and I want to
(20:32):
grow this organization to makeit really impactful.
We have very few organizationssuch as the bore center
foundation.
Uh, it's a policy organization.
Yes, we are focused on educationon journalism next like that.
I am a journalist, uh, uh, till2020, I worked for Dutch Valley,
the German public broadcaster.
(20:53):
I interviewed the world leaders,um, in many, in many countries
of the world.
Um, now I'm, I'm a freelancejournalist and I am working on
my own projects.
Uh, basically all these projectsand I'm in English.
So I want to switch to Englishlanguage, journalism, wish me
(21:15):
luck,
Speaker 3 (21:16):
Good luck.
And really it was a privilegeknowing your dad and it's
wonderful meeting you.
And thank you so much on it.
Speaker 2 (21:24):
Thank you very much.
Have a nice day.
Good luck to you.
Speaker 3 (21:32):
All right, Mikhail, Cassiana joins me now from just
outside of Moscow.
He is a Russian politician whoserved as the prime minister, uh
, from 2000 to 2004.
And I've interviewed him manytimes and respect his opinion
very deeply on what's happeninginside Russia, Mikhail, some
stunning events, uh, on theweekend.
When you take a look at the, notjust the numbers of people, but
(21:55):
when you take a look at thelandscape of protests, I mean,
close to a hundred of them,right across the country.
Speaker 4 (22:01):
Yes.
Landscape geography as like wesay, geography is amazing.
It's never happened before inRussia in the last, last 20
years.
In fact, it's more than the 500cities in the old Russia, just,
uh, on the streets of conduit,more than a hundred cities,
people appear to, to protest, toprotest against, uh, against
(22:25):
what's what going on in Russia,in the country and protests
against arrest of AlexanderBerlin.
Speaker 3 (22:32):
What got them out there?
Is it just Navani's arrest or isthere more to it
Speaker 4 (22:38):
Deeper in fact, people already are tied to of,
um, uh, uh, and the discontentsby the circus radiating.
It has been the Kool-Aid that.
And, uh, um, I will say a littleless behavior of, of, of
authorities on many, manyrespects.
Uh, uh, I would say, uh, of, ofauthorities to establish some
(23:00):
kind of a channel forcommunication with the, with the
society.
And, uh, uh, I would say elegantbehavior, et cetera, et cetera.
But the three gov, this wasarrested of[inaudible] who after
poisoning came back to Moscowand was arrested at the airport.
People were shocked, shocked bythat.
(23:20):
And a blast on that off therecent, the movie, I would say
video reach a place, an interim[inaudible] about the corruption
route here, man, the game, ofcourse, uh, just added to these
two disrespect as well, too.
Speaker 3 (23:39):
I sat through that entire video.
Um, and I was, I thought it wasremarkable.
It's very detailed on thecorruption of, of Putin, uh,
people around him, hundreds ofmillions of dollars taken this
palace near the black sea, youknow, Putin shrugged it off this
week and kind of smirked.
(23:59):
And as you said, arrogantlyresponded, you know, maybe one
day he'd like to have a winery,but, uh, the Kremlin has just
said, all of this is false andfiction.
Is it fiction?
Or is it real?
Speaker 4 (24:12):
Yeah, all people of course believe is real.
It's not necessarily to beregistered as a, as ownership
box.
In fact, just two minutes, twomain factors that, that, uh, the
, the sky was locked aroundthat.
And, uh, but for, for, for, for,for aircraft and the final
quarter,
Speaker 3 (24:31):
No fly zone by the FSB, the federal security
service,
Speaker 4 (24:35):
Uh, it was done officially by ministry of
transportation because of theirauthority.
But of course, uh, uh, of courseI'm the, I'm the security and
the whole, the whole area isunder security of FSB or secret
service, which protects thepeople.
Um, high-level people around it.
That's why people, people ofcourse have no doubts, uh,
(24:56):
about, about it
Speaker 3 (24:57):
And are people outraged.
I mean, you know, people arestruggling during the pandemic.
The economy's not good, theirstagnation in Russia.
I think that when they take alook at this monstrous palace
that, you know, it looks likeanother Versailles, they must be
furious.
Speaker 4 (25:16):
There's not, there's not a real, I would say a major
aspect, as I said, that was likea trigger or just a decent old,
or let's say discom thing todiscontent and the people, uh,
uh, unacceptable behavior ofauthorities, et cetera.
But, you know, just corruptionin Russia is always was a
(25:38):
problem.
And, uh, a majority of, um, of,um, the generations they lived
during the corruptions of duringSoviet period.
Speaker 3 (25:47):
I mean, it's one thing, if you have corruption by
bandits, it's another thing, ifyour leader is seen to be
stealing billions of dollarsfrom people though,
Speaker 4 (25:55):
Well, young people for new generation who don't
have this in there and theirmemories, of course, for them,
it's like explosion for, for, uh, teenagers and on a cheek talk,
uh, just, uh, different moviesand the different placement
there, of course just, uh, verymuch created the whole
atmosphere around it.
(26:16):
But as I say, that's not themain issue for majority of those
people who were in the streets.
Um, now last Saturday, um,mainly that is, uh, um, uh, I
would say, uh, discontent ismaturing in their minds.
And that's what I would like tosay.
Just the main, the main issuefor these 2021 East just
(26:38):
constitutional events, electionsto state Duma.
And that could be, I would saythe critical point for the whole
historical, I would say, periodof Russia at this moment.
And this,
Speaker 3 (26:51):
The thing is that you have parliamentary elections,
the Duma, and they're coming upin September and what what's at
stake here.
Speaker 4 (26:59):
Yeah, that's, that is that's when, uh, that is the
issue when, uh, that is thepoint when people started to
understand that, uh, theirconstitutional rights, they
watch our storm or authoritiesdon't allow at all, or in
principle, don't allow people toexpress their, the, the, the, uh
, uh, position, uh, to expresstheir opinion.
(27:21):
They don't allow oppositionparties to participate.
They don't allow a position thatcandidates to participate in
elections, or even for those, uh, few, uh, which they allowed to
come in.
They just then falsified theresults.
That's what, uh, it happened inDecember, 2011 and could happen
(27:43):
2022.
Speaker 3 (27:44):
You ran for president.
So
Speaker 4 (27:48):
Parliamentary elections, when it goes in
present, they cut me fromelections.
When my supposed to grow, theyon the earliest stage one month
after registration, they caughtme because just them, the stood,
that could be a danger, but Imean, I mean, in December, 2010,
2011, there were, there was aresults.
There was a bill I'm in threeelections.
(28:09):
And then at that time, um, uh, Iwould say hundred thousand
people in Moscow appeared, uh,Pete on the streets to protest.
And at that time, uh, I, sorry,just put started to somehow to
relax the situation.
Uh, he made a decision to, Iwould say, ease registration on
(28:29):
political parties and some otherminor things.
But then when demonstrationsdisappeared from Moscow streets,
they stopped all those changesand even, uh, squeeze the whole
environment, they won't fillthem all
Speaker 3 (28:44):
Very quickly.
What do you think of Nevani?
You know, him, you've met withhim many times.
You were in a coalition with himwhere you, at one point what's
what's, what's your take on him?
I mean, he bravely came back.
I don't think a lot of people,
Speaker 4 (28:58):
His breath cross on.
That's no doubt about that.
Even for many, many people whodoubt about his, I would say
political, I would say strength.
So political political position,because sometimes people
criticize for him, for him forextreme rights, expressions, or
extreme lefts expressions, etcetera, et cetera.
But he's really a real leader ofthe, of the protests on the
(29:23):
street progress.
He's the leader of this and he'sleader of youth.
That's definitely, there is noany other of such a, I would say
it was such a popularity andhe's very brave person.
And because of his coming back,many people who didn't support
him right now change theattitude to miss Nevada that's.
Speaker 3 (29:44):
So in that video, then we'll come back to that
video for a moment.
I mean, she called Putin,abandoned a thief.
He listed all of the people withtheir pictures, with their
names, the so-called wallets,the people who store the
administration, not theadministration store, the
president's money illegally inthe shadows.
(30:08):
That seems like an act of,
Speaker 4 (30:11):
As I say, there is no doubt that a in the, right now,
the bright sister presented of aposition and no one is a, I
would say, have doubts about it.
Now that's never going to getout of prison.
Uh, I don't, I mean, the prison,
Speaker 3 (30:30):
Is he ever going to be allowed out of prison after
doing that video?
Speaker 4 (30:35):
That's interesting story right now, there is a
discussion about that.
In fact, I will tell you on thisstage, that behavior of Portugal
and the sorority with respect to, um,[inaudible] needs, I would
say freedom depends on theposition of, uh, leaders of
European union, uh, for Russia,for Puccio positional European
(30:57):
union.
It's very important Russianeconomy in a very poor position
at this moment.
And, uh, at least not inrelations, economic relations in
particular with European union,that's important issue for Mr.
Porter.
And that's why, that's why, uh,he, I feel he wants and his
(31:17):
people around.
They want, they want nobody toput the, to put to jail for a
long time, but the situationcould change.
They could somehow to reconsidertheir emotional or you to this
move in.
And somehow, somehow just to geta little bit back to the reality
(31:38):
and to even legal justice and torelease him from these, that
would say, uh, convincing whatthey just artificially created
on this stage.
And, uh, but in any case hewould not be released, uh,
completely, but it could be, hecould be put on the, in the, in
the, in that arrested at home,but not in jail.
Speaker 3 (32:00):
So you're saying the EU, which is wobbly and wavering
on Russia and sanctions.
And they met this week and theykind of came up with no
decision, which is pretty commonfor the EU, but they are going
to come to Russia.
You urge them to take thosesanctions.
Otherwise, if they don't keepthe pressure on Nevada and he
(32:22):
may spend a long time in prison,
Speaker 4 (32:23):
I have to express just the whole, the whole, I
would say, Oh, to, to, to what'shappened around my body.
When it, first of all, at theissue, number one, that is, uh,
application of, uh, of, of nerveagent luggage that is
prohibited.
And I, as I understand from allthose reports, that there is no
(32:45):
doubts of, um, uh, uh,organization of, uh, recognition
of chemical weapons that thepost maybe joked, and there was
application of this in Russia isthe same
Speaker 3 (32:56):
Chemical weapons convention.
Speaker 4 (32:59):
That is a violation of the month on national law.
That's the issue number one,which could be considered.
And secondly, of course, moreinternal issue like Noah and his
arrests there, the human rightsabuse, et cetera, but the
previous, the, the, the, the,the, the, the primary issue, of
course, Navy Nichelle,
Speaker 3 (33:18):
Ricardo Cassiana hallways, and Hunter to talk to
you.
Good to see you.
Speaker 4 (33:22):
Thank you very much.
Speaker 3 (33:27):
Alex Cook chiro is a political risk analyst, and he
knows Russia well, Belarus andother parts of Eastern Europe.
Hi, Alex, pretty remarkablescenes we've seen, uh, in Moscow
and right across the country allthe way up to a lot of our
stock.
Speaker 5 (33:45):
Uh, yes, it was quite sizable turn out, uh, in more
than a hundred cities across thecountry from Vladivostok and
Yakutsk in Eastern Russia, uh,in Yakutsk people, uh, turned up
to protest despite minus 52degrees Celsius, uh, all the way
to the Western cities ofColombian grads, Saatchi and St.
(34:07):
Petersburg.
So we wanted significantturnout.
Speaker 3 (34:11):
What do these demonstrations represent?
Is this just about the jailingof Nevada County, or is it more,
Speaker 5 (34:17):
It is a combination of factors and arrest of Nevada
was one of those factors.
Another factor was a release of,um, a film by Nevada, the steam
about allergic, uh, corruption,uh, in the Russian
administration and allergicunexplained wealth enjoyed by
(34:40):
Alex.
Have you seen the video?
Yes.
I've seen the video.
Uh,
Speaker 3 (34:43):
I think most people, I mean, I think we have to talk
about it for a minute, becausejust saying there's a film out
there is not enough.
First of all, it is almost twohours.
It is very detailed by Alexa andthe Valley and his team going
through Putin's accumulation ofextreme wealth, um, over 20
(35:08):
years.
And he named his names, he doesflow charts on, he calls them
his wallets.
Uh, he shows this palace that hehas built near the black sea
that supposedly could be abillion dollars by their
numbers, interior pictures,orders for furniture.
(35:29):
And I mean, he really directlygoes after president Putin
saying that he's a thief andhe's surrounded by thieves any
stolen from the country.
And people have to go to thestreet and fight this so that
the thievery ends it's verypowerful.
Speaker 5 (35:46):
It is.
And, uh, it's, it's a very, youknow, uh, very interested in
film and dozens of millions ofpeople worldwide, not only in
Russia have watched it, uh, itis obviously the blockbuster of,
uh, uh, you know, of Russia in2021.
It's been watched by nearly ahundred million people, which is
remarkable when, when you thinkabout it, if she
Speaker 3 (36:10):
Gonna get out of jail, I mean, I think that Putin
and the Kremlin knowing them theway I do, and I was in the
country for 12 years.
Um, the Putin's can not takethis not personally.
Um, and I think they're going tothrow away the key.
Speaker 5 (36:28):
I think it is increasingly likely that Nevada
only will remain in prison foran extended period of time.
The fact that he was reportedlytargets of an assassination back
in August last year when, uh, hewas poisoned re again,
reportedly with a Novick choppychemical agents back inside in
(36:49):
Siberia suggests that, uh, youknow, the rust, some strong, um,
decisions, uh, which are made byvery senior people in Russia,
uh, regarding the Valley,
Speaker 3 (37:05):
He says Putin would have had to sign off.
There's just, nobody else wouldhave allowed a political
assassination to take place.
Speaker 5 (37:11):
Uh, pretty much so.
Yes.
And, uh, it does sound crediblethat, uh, um, an order of
political assassination of thismagnitude would come from very
high up in the Russian, in theRussian leadership,
Speaker 3 (37:27):
If you're good at managing risk and assessing risk
in Russia, is this just anotherattack or do you consider it a
new chapter because we've hadjournalist and it pulled a coast
Gaia that was shot at herapartment before because of her
reporting on Chechnya, Boris,Nimsoft an opposition figure
killed, I mean, literally rightin front of the Kremlin.
(37:50):
Um, but I mean, the Valley is avery high profile opposition
figure for them to take him outnow.
For what reason?
Why,
Speaker 5 (38:03):
Honestly, we don't know why, you know, if there was
an assassination order, uh, wedon't know why the timing was in
August, 2020.
The fact that Nevada hassurvived it and recovered and
decided to come back to Russia,um, obviously sends a strong
signal to the Kremlin that heintends to fight, and he intends
(38:26):
to, uh, continue his oppositionto the Kremlin and to poutine.
And it only sends signals to theKremlin that, uh, in order, uh,
to mitigate, uh, Nevada andother opposition figures, uh,
the criminal Kremlin must dosomething.
And I think it looksincreasingly likely that he will
(38:46):
stay in prison for an extendedperiod of time.
And the fact that, you know, Ithink the fact that the way this
large protests, uh, it's only,uh, it's only adds to this
because if now Nevada said free,it would suggest that the
protests work and that theKremmling, uh, can be pressured
(39:09):
into releasing, uh, arrested,uh, political opponents by
large-scale turnouts, uh, uh,during protests.
Speaker 3 (39:18):
Do you think that the Kremlin and Putin are caught in
a corner?
I mean, they said that theywould arrest him the Valley.
If he came back, probably hopingthat he wouldn't come back, he
came back, he forced their hand,and now they're stuck because if
they let them out, they look toosoft and that's not a good thing
in Russia if they keep them in,it's going to keep firing the
street and protests.
Speaker 5 (39:39):
Yes.
But I think, I think thecalculation is very similar with
calculations, which werehappening back in 2003 with, uh,
businessmen Mikhail.
Khodorkovsky there have beenthreats of his arrest, which he
ignored.
And he came back to Russia.
And despite the fact that he wasgiven multiple warnings, that
(40:00):
there will be prosecutionagainst him, unless he stops
pursuing political goals, uh,and leaves the country
altogether.
Uh, he would face an arrest.
He disobeyed, he decided tocontinue, uh, with his political
agenda and he was arrested andhe spent more than 10 years in
(40:22):
prison.
And I think it's increasinglylikely I see these parallels
with Khodorkovsky.
And I think it's increasinglylikely that the Kremlin will,
uh, we'll, we'll keep Navantiain prison for an extended period
of time.
Despite the fact that, uh,eight, eight, eight is likely to
be a trigger to, uh, protests.
Speaker 3 (40:45):
How do you read Novotny?
I mean,
Speaker 5 (40:47):
Kremlin's perspective, the protests are
not life-threatening.
They were not yet the way theywere quite significant, quite
large, but, uh, you know, inMoscow, there are different
estimates between 20 and 40,maybe 50,000 people turned up 15
million people, 50, even 50,000is not significant for protests.
(41:10):
So from Kremlin's perspective,uh, Nevada only doesn't come on
the streets.
Um, so, uh, he cannot mobilizeenough people to create genuine
threats to the Kremlin,
Speaker 3 (41:24):
But he's a popular figure.
And they've just made a verypopular now.
I mean, they've made them, somepeople have even used the word
Mandela.
I don't think he's Mendelafigure yet, but he's certainly
in re in Russia terms, he's nota holder Kowski who was a rich
oligarch who ran oil companiesand was arrested off his private
jet.
I mean, Nevada money is, is apretty common guy.
He's a lawyer.
(41:44):
And you know, he's not livingbeyond his means.
And suddenly a lot of Russianswill identify with him and
support him.
I mean, you've got videos on TikTOK where school kids are taking
down portraits of Putin andputting up portraits of Nevada
County and they have receivedmillions of views.
Speaker 5 (42:01):
Yes, nav only is quite popular, but we have to
remember that his popularitymostly lies with the urban
middle is in Moscow St.
Petersburg and other largercities across Russia.
And he is still some way offfrom, you know, popularity
amongst various social classesacross the country, live in, you
(42:26):
know, across different types oflocalities.
Speaker 3 (42:29):
Although you saw protests and 11 times zones.
I mean, I don't want tooverstate the demonstrations
either because I think they arestill relatively small, but the,
the width and the breadth ofthem across the country shows
you that he is tapped intodigital media.
He is tapped into social media,um, and people now are not
getting their news on Navalnyfrom the main Kremlin television
(42:52):
stations who get theirprogramming from the Kremlin.
I mean, this guy has realsupport out there in social
media with young people, uh,with different age groups in the
demonstration.
So you can't exactly put a limiton this and say, it's going to
end a certain way.
We really don't know, do we it'sthe beginning.
Speaker 5 (43:12):
Yes.
Uh, and I'm not going to disputethis, uh, the fact that these
protests took place across theentire country in, in very
diverse cities.
And, uh, there were, you know, alot of protests, a lot of
protests who actually turned upfor the first time to protest,
which I think is quiteimportant.
(43:33):
Uh, but from the prominenceperspective, it's still not
enough to, um, to generategenuine threats to the continued
, uh, uh, rule of the, of theruling elite.
So of Putin and hisadministration
Speaker 3 (43:48):
Read is right.
And I think the Kremlin will digin here and they're not going to
give any ground which leads tomore confrontation and more
demonstrations in the meantime,last question to you because you
deal with risk and you, you dealin, uh, with corporate risk as
well.
A lot of people, I mean, foreigncompanies, a lot of them left
Russia anyway, with, with thefirst rounds of sanctions.
(44:10):
But do you think that there willbe more sanctions because there
are certainly a call for that?
Speaker 5 (44:15):
Well, we've seen these calls for more sanctions
by the European unionspecifically in response to, um,
you know, to, to, to, to, toNevada is the rest and to the
use of heavy force againstprotestors.
But also we have to rememberthat, uh, there are calls, um,
for new sanctions in the U S andthey STEM from, uh, other things
(44:40):
, uh, which also includeallegations of cyber attacks by,
uh, reportedly Russian actorsagainst us government and us
private sector funds.
Uh, the cyber attacks, well,very much large scale, and there
have been statements from the,at that time.
It was still, um, we, uh, teamof, uh, president elect by the
(45:04):
now president Biden that therewill be consequences and that
there will be, uh, sanctionscoming in response to these, um,
incidents.
So I think we're likely to seemore threats of sanctions and
potentially more sanctions.
But the big question is what thesanctions will be from the
(45:25):
European union.
I think personal sanctionsagainst individuals in the, uh,
in the criminal administrationare more likely rather than, uh,
economic sanctions.
There are a lot of businessinterests in the European union,
which, uh, still favor doingbusiness in Russia.
We know that Russia stillsupplies a lot of gas and oil to
(45:46):
the European union and theinfrastructure projects in
place, despite the fact thatthat's subject to us sanctions.
Um, so I think is going to be avery mixed picture.
Uh, the European union sanctionsare less likely to be economic
and more personal targetedsanctions against the specific
individuals.
Speaker 3 (46:05):
Let's end where we started when you saw those
images on the weekend and howmany different cities they were
in and watch them unfold throughthe day.
What was your reaction?
What did you think?
Speaker 5 (46:21):
It was impressive.
I expected that there will beprotests, uh, on, on that day,
but I didn't expect that theywill be, you know, across the
entire country across, uh, somany cities, over a hundred
cities across Russia, and theywill be such a big turnout.
And also I got the impressionthat the protesters this time
(46:46):
around, uh, appear to besomewhat more assertive in their
actions and less frightened ofthe police.
And this could mean that couldbe, can be potential change in
the way these protests, uh, uh,take place in the coming weeks.
It will be another protest on31st of January.
It's a good
Speaker 3 (47:05):
Point because I was watching in Moscow where they
were fighting back with policeSt.
Petersburg, where they werepelting them, showering them,
burying them with snowballs andfighting and pushing.
And, uh, yeah, it's, it's gotthe potential to kind of spin
into a more violent showdown asthese continue Alex Cook tariff.
(47:29):
Thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (47:30):
Thank you so much.
Thanks a lot.
Have a good evening.
And that's our second backstoryon Russia unrest.
So much to play for in thecountry.
Putin is getting old and itfeels like he's been the
president forever 20 years isforever polls show.
Most Russians want change.
And the question is, will therebe a peaceful transition or just
(47:52):
more repression and stagnationin that great country?
I'm Dana Lewis, please subscribeto the podcast and I'll talk to
you again.
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