SPIRALLING WAR - ISRAEL, LEBANON AND IRAN

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What does Israel hope to achieve with its limited ground operation in Lebanon, and how is Iran’s involvement shaping the conflict? Join us as we tackle these pressing questions with former Israeli Army Colonel Miri Eisen, who provides exclusive insights into Israel's defense strategies and the broader geopolitical landscape.  

The ongoing humanitarian crisis in Lebanon is heartbreaking and deserves global attention. This episode highlights the severe displacement of over a million people, compounded by Lebanon's economic collapse and political instability.  Dana Lewis talks to UNHRC's Rula Amin. 

And, Hassan Nasrallah, assassinated by Israel, led the Hezbollah for 32 years.  He was a key actor for Iran's meddling in Syria, Lebanon, and a role model for other extremist groups including ISIS and Al Qaeda.  I discuss his violent legacy with writer Kareem Shaheen.

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Episode Transcript

Dana Lewis (00:00):
Talk about Lebanon, if you will, as we speak today.
I mean there's a lot happening,right.
So now Israel is saying,suggested going to be a limited
operation, because you know,once these things start, they

(00:29):
don't tend to be very limited.

Miri Eisan (00:31):
First of all, the intention is important and clear
.
It is being stated as a limitedoperation, both in its scope,
the amount of forces and in itslength, meaning how long it will
take and how deep they're goinginto Lebanon.
They're talking aboutcross-border attacks.

Rula Amin (00:47):
So, on one hand, in terms of the Israeli bombardment
and the number of people killed, this is much bigger than what
we saw in 2006 war, which wasconsidered to be a very vicious
war, and, just to give you oneexample, in one day more than
550 Lebanese and refugees werekilled.

Kareem Shaheen (01:11):
So in one day, the soul of Hezbollah.
He created the machinery of theorganization that went on to
become a linchpin of Iran'spower projection in the region.
He was instrumental in thepreservation of Bashar
al-Assad's regime in Syria.

Dana Lewis (01:32):
Hi everyone and welcome to another edition of
Backstory.
I'm Dana Lewis.
This week, Lebanon, theHezbollah in Israel and you
can't speak about the Hezbollahwithout discussing Iran.
Iran has launched almost 200missiles at Israel, retaliation
for the killing of Hezbollahleader Hassan Nasrallah.
If you want to know more aboutwho Nasrallah was, we lead you

(01:57):
through that with Kareem Shaheen.
The Israeli ground attackinside Lebanon, displacing more
than a million people.
So we talked to the UN'srefugee spokesperson, Rula Amin,
but first former Israeli ArmyColonel Miri Eisen.
Miri Eisen is a former IsraeliArmy Colonel and was the foreign

(02:18):
media advisor for PrimeMinister Ehud Olmert in Israel,
and she has a background inintelligence.
Minister Ehud Olmert in Israel,and she has a background in
intelligence.
And, Mary, I've watched youover the years and greatly value
your comments and perspective.
First of all, a missile attackfrom Iran and that is overtaking

(02:38):
events in Lebanon right now.
Are you comfortable, Are yousafe where you are?

Miri Eisan (02:44):
I always feel more comfortable in Israel than
anywhere else.
This country, in that sense,the Israelis around me, and the
defense systems which are thatbasic reason why there's been
such a difference in just thenumbers of casualties, is
because of that defense and I amgoing to continue to believe in
that defense.
I think that the Iranians are ahorrible threat and I think

(03:06):
that we'll withstand that.
So I'm comfortable.
If there is an air raid siren,then you'll hear it together
with me and I will go to thesafe place inside my own house.

Dana Lewis (03:14):
Don't hesitate to run from this interview.
No, it's okay.
What would Iran be trying toaccomplish right now?
This is payback for Nasrallah.

Miri Eisan (03:25):
I'm not even sure if it's Nasrallah or if it's the
very high-ranking IranianRevolutionary Guard that was
killed together with Nasrallah.
I'll remind everybody that theattack that Iran has already
done directly against Israel onthe night of April 13th 14th,
was done after Israel had killeda top Iranian Revolutionary
Guard officer in Damascus.
So in that sense, they did itthen and I think they'll do it

(03:47):
now.
Is it a shorter time period?
Well, it's also HassanNasrallah, but I would say it's
for both and that is their modusoperandi.
I can't say I know more thanthat.
I know that most countries docopycat things, meaning I expect
something similar to April 13th14th, but I don't know.

Dana Lewis (04:10):
Gary has said there'll be consequences.
This time Israel hascapabilities, essentially saying
that they're going to hit themback this time.
Was there, in the wake of theApril attack in which Britain
and America and other allieshelped intercept some of those
missiles along with Israel?
Was there a conversation inIsrael that Iran should have
been penalized in a more seriousway?

Miri Eisan (04:30):
In Israel.
We're constantly talking aboutthe Iranians in that sense how
they're getting out of this withsupplying the weapons, giving
the ideology, the backing, thetraining to all of these proxies
.
All of these missiles, uavs,suicide drones, you name it all
of them are being supplied byIran.
So certainly it's a question ofwhy are they the ones who get
out of it every time?

(04:51):
Having said that, iran is overa thousand miles away from
Israel and having said thatbefore yesterday, israel
attacked in Yemen, and that'salso over a thousand miles away
from Israel.

Dana Lewis (05:05):
Talk about Lebanon, if you will, as we speak today.
I mean, there's a lot happeningright.
So now Israel is saying they'regoing forward with a ground
operation.
You must take a big breath andwonder how dangerous that will
be.
And is this really, as theIsraeli government spokesman has

(05:28):
suggested, going to be alimited operation?
Because, you know, once thesethings start, they don't tend to
be very limited?

Miri Eisan (05:37):
First of all, the intention is important and clear
.
It is being stated as a limitedoperation, both in its scope,
the amount of forces and in itslength, meaning how long it will
take and how deep they're goinginto Lebanon.
They're talking aboutcross-border attacks.
Today, dana, as we're speakingand this was Daniel Hagari,
brigadier General, idfspokesperson has been very busy

(05:58):
today and today, just an hourago, he posted and I highly
recommend everybody go look atit.
He put out a series of shortclip movies that are of Israeli
troops who have done in the last200 days, while Hezbollah was
attacking Israel, while Israelwas acting on the ground in the
Gaza Strip and not responding inthat sense to Hezbollah, they

(06:22):
went into a series ofunderground attack tunnels that
Hezbollah built from Lebanoninto Israel and there's all
sorts of different footage ofthis, of the soldiers going down
into them, showing thedifferent weapon arsenals,
showing the openings, going fromthe children's room under the
bed down into the undergroundtunnel.
So when we talk about thatground incursion and the fear of

(06:45):
what will happen there, we arealready in that sense into that
action there, trying to destroythe Radwan force, that's, the
Hezbollah force, the Radwanforce capabilities on the ground
, so that they will not be ableto do an October 7th attack.

Dana Lewis (07:01):
Right, and he made a point of that.
He made a point of that.
He said this is more than justabout missiles being fired into
Israel, which no country wouldput up with, but the fact that
their intelligence is that theywere planning an October 7th
style massacre in Israel to becarried out by the Hezbollah.

Miri Eisan (07:20):
And they were training for it and they built
all of the attack tunnels andthey had the weaponry for it,
that's the motorcycles and thepickup trucks.
You know, that's like whatlooks kind of sexy.
I'm talking about the ATGMs,the anti-tank guided missiles,
the different type of weaponry,all of the different things.
And they have found and exposedand again, I recommend going to
look at it, it's a lot offootage.

(07:40):
They've exposed the maps ofHezbollah.
The operation was calledOperation Liberation of the
Galilee and Hassan Nasrallahhimself spoke about this
operation, showed maps of it andwe, the IDF forces, have found
this in these undergroundHezbollah Lebanese tunnels on
the Lebanese side in the lastfew months.

Dana Lewis (08:01):
Okay, if we thought the tunnel situation in Gaza
was complicated and you've beenfighting in there for almost a
year what could this look likein Lebanon?
I mean, it could be a honeycombof Hezbollah launch platforms
and weapons storage that can goon for miles and can draw the

(08:25):
Israeli army further and furtherinto a kind of ground hell
there.

Miri Eisan (08:31):
First of all, we've learned lessons over the last 11
months.
We've been fighting on theground in the Gaza Strip in the
last 11 months and the biggestchallenge is the combination,
dana, meaning it's not just theunderground, subterranean, it's
also the urban civilian areathat's above it when it's
outside, in the middle ofnowhere, the caves of Osama bin
Laden, that's one thing, butwe're talking right now and

(08:53):
that's also a terrorist right.
That's also horrible.
Here we're talking about all ofthese different tunnels
underneath the towns andvillages and the idea of troops.
These are special forces thatwent into it and took,
considering that Hezbollah,until two weeks ago, fired, as

(09:27):
you said before, 8,000 rocketsinto Israel, and in the last two
weeks it started firing the midand long range rockets,
including today when I was in anair siren.
And now we're waiting for theIranian rockets and missiles and
UAVs and suicide drones to cometowards Israel.

Dana Lewis (09:43):
Right, it just keeps getting worse.
So doesn't that strengthen theposition by a lot of diplomats
in different countries that sayyou're not going to eliminate
Hamas, you're not going toeliminate Hezbollah in the north
?
What you really need is aceasefire and then probably some
kind of peace plan withPalestinians to put out the fire

(10:04):
, not as the flames arespreading right now.

Miri Eisan (10:07):
I think that you can say that when you aren't an
Israeli.
I think you can say that whenyou are in Canada, the UK and in
Europe and around the world.
I live here and when you lookat what was on the other side of
the Israeli border, the type ofattack that Hezbollah was
planning, was implementing, wasready to do an October 7th
attack on steroids times 10against Israeli communities and

(10:31):
I just want to remind you thatthe Hamas attack was into Israel
and Israeli communities onOctober 7th and it was.
Could it have been worse?
Yes, it could have also beenHezbollah.
To sit and say ceasefire is tosay that we agree that this
non-state terror military armythat's what it is a terror
military army.
It's not the state's army has aright to be there.

(10:55):
Be that it should deter us.
I think that that is actually ahorrible thing.
It's saying it's okay forIsrael to have that on the other
side and at the end, maybe onOctober 7th will happen.
I can't live with that.
Here.
You need to destroy thecapabilities.
It isn't about destroying theideology.
It's about destroying thecapabilities.
Their ideology calls for ourdestruction.

(11:15):
So all of the lovely people,including myself, who want peace
, who want two states who want aresolution for the Palestinians
.
I separate between what I'mtalking about and between what
Hezbollah and Hamas both say,which is the destruction,
annihilation of the state ofIsrael.

Dana Lewis (11:31):
You worked for a prime minister who supported a
two-state solution.

Miri Eisan (11:35):
Absolutely.

Dana Lewis (11:36):
Do you have a?
Prime minister now that youthink is leading you in a good
direction.

Miri Eisan (11:41):
It's not about that.
At the end of the day, thereare 5 million Palestinians who
deserve their own future.
My problem right now is thatthe extreme, very extreme
ideological voices that don'tonly say Israel is the worst
place on earth, theydelegitimize our right to exist,
they say we don't have a rightto exist and they also state
very clearly, in very clearvoices, that the way to achieve

(12:03):
their state, instead of Israel,is through the use of force.
And in that sense, I'm like I'mgoing to talk to the people who
are willing to talk to me, butI am going to listen, after
October 7th, to those who calledfor my destruction, because I
am one of those who thought thatHamas, as the responsible
authority in the Gaza Stripresponsible authority in the
Gaza Strip would change its path.

(12:24):
And what I got in my mistake notjust the IDF's mistake or
Mary's mistake is that I thoughtthat they would be responsible
and authority, and what theybuilt was years of a kind of
plan that Hezbollah has beenbuilding, which is to attack, to
destroy in a barbaric way andat the end, the idea is to
destroy me.
I'm not going to acquiesce withthat.

(12:46):
I don't think Prime MinisterOlmert would acquiesce with that
.
Having said that, at the end,yes, we will arrive at some kind
of resolution, but don't makeme the one.
Sorry, I'll say this otherwiseI'm not the one who is going to
help establish a Palestinianstate and that that state is
going to call for my destruction.

Dana Lewis (13:07):
I'm not going to help.
Do that?
Colonel Eisen, will you tell mewhat your worst, your best case
scenario is in Lebanon?
If you go in, dismantle some ofthe tunnels you've already
dealt?
The Israeli army has alreadydealt a seismic blow to the
leadership of Hezbollah.

(13:27):
How does it end?
If you paint a rosy picture?
What would it be?

Miri Eisan (13:34):
Dana.
We've been in a war for a year.
There are no more rosy pictures.
It's a war.
War is horrible.
So what we're talking about isthe scenario that, in this war,
is something that I, for Israel,would see as an achievement.
So for me, it would be A theexposure of what Hezbollah was
planning to do without Hezbollahdoing it.

(13:56):
That's a very importantachievement.
Until now, for 11 months, I'vebeen talking about Hezbollah.
Everybody has talked about theGaza Strip and, in this case,
about the casualties in the GazaStrip, and I've talked about
Hezbollah, and they're firing in.
I want us to expose whatthey've done and that we're
starting to do today in a veryvisual way.
Second aspect is to physicallydestroy the arsenals of weapons,

(14:19):
the tunnels themselves, thedifferent aspects that are
adjacent to the border.
I don't aspire to destroy allof Hezbollah's capabilities in
Lebanon, but through exposing itand destroying the ones that
are right next to Israel.
For me, the best achievementwould be to hear world leaders
calling Hezbollah a terrororganization, understanding what

(14:41):
that means and what it is.
Which they do which most of themdo.
Well, the governments do.
The achievements would be tonot see young, liberal,
progressive, amazing youngpeople.
I have kids those age who areall fighting right now because
they have no choice.
And I say that they're notflying a Hezbollah flag because
they think that that's cool orneat.

(15:02):
Hezbollah is a horrific terrororganization supplied and
trained by Iran.
And, yes, the Shiites ofLebanon are oppressed.
Let's put a difference betweenthe oppression of the Shiites of
Lebanon and between whatHezbollah stands for.

Dana Lewis (15:18):
How do you stop going over the next hilltop?
And so further, my fear deeper,and that's okay, let's deal
with that, Sorry.

Miri Eisan (15:26):
So I said that's the scenario that I'd like us to do
.
I'll add in that what I'd likeit is that we will be the mature
adult and I have no other wayto put it to know that when
we've done what we want toachieve, that we stop.
This is not about the countryLebanon, the prime minister that
everybody seems to vilify, butthe prime minister, he has said

(15:47):
that himself.
Every single person in Israelin authority has said this is
not about the country Lebanon,it's not about the people of
Lebanon and I know that soundshorrible, because we're
attacking in Lebanon, destroythis terror army going in to
destroy their weapons, theirtunnels, their caches, all the
different communications andcontrols, and then be the mature

(16:10):
adult and go out.
And what I worry is becausewhen you go in, as you said
before, you start something, youdon't know where it will lead.
I'm worried about surprisesthat Hezbollah has in store for
us, because everybody preparessurprises and you need to adapt,
and that those surprises can behorrific in high-intensity

(16:30):
warfare.
And so I worry about those andI want to hope that we will
still be the mature adult andnot get, not just bogged down.
I don't want a buffer zone, Idon't want us to stay there.
I want us to go in, expose anddestroy expose it's very
important and then to come backout.

Dana Lewis (16:48):
Mary, last question to you You've lived, you have
an intelligence background, youknow Lebanon quite well.
You've seen this, what a lot ofpeople would describe as a
failed state, unable at varioustimes to fill this void and to
push its army and take controlof Lebanon and create security

(17:09):
for Lebanese people.
Right, because if there arerockets going over the Israeli
border, you know that on theLebanese side something's going
to be coming back, and so it'sup to the Lebanese government to
somehow become strong enough tosecure Lebanon for its own
people.
It just seems like we getfurther and further away from

(17:29):
that.
So I always wonder how much.

Miri Eisan (17:33):
It's a real crisis and I wonder how much.
In that sense, I always saybecause we do, as Israelis, get
blamed for everything, including, I mean, this war is our fault
and I'm like you're right, weexist.
If we didn't exist, everythingwould be wonderful.
That was me being verysarcastic, but when it comes to
the country next to us, lebanon,lebanon is a complex country.
Israel has had a complexrelationship.

(17:54):
Most Lebanese view Israel asbeing the one who is the
responsible one for all of theirwoes, and I'm going to say,
sadly, we are responsible forsome of their woes, but they
have lots of woes that havenothing to do with us their
failure in the last four yearsas a government to put together
a government.
In that fact, what happenedinside the Beirut port, the way

(18:15):
that they addressed COVID theirfinance crashed and burned not
connected to Israel.
I would say to the Lebanese goand look at Hezbollah.
What were they doing, bothinside the port and in other
areas?
There are this non-state entity, but they are Lebanese and I
don't have an answer for it.
At the end, when I look at allof the Middle East, lebanon is

(18:37):
such a unique, different MiddleEastern country.
It has such diverse, differentvoices and I hope that they'll
come up with one where Israel isnot the problem.
Rather, perhaps something jointcould become part of a
resolution and I would love tosee that and that's called
easier said than done andfurther away, because right now
we are in a real war Not that wehaven't been in a real war for

(19:00):
the last, and we have been forthe last 12 months and all of
this is something that we needto address in the future.

Dana Lewis (19:06):
Mary Eisen, thank you so much.
Great pleasure to talk to you.

Miri Eisan (19:09):
Thank you so much.

Dana Lewis (19:14):
Rula Amin is a former correspondent for CNN and
Al Jazeera and she is now thespokesperson for the UNHCR
Refugee Agency, and she's basedin Amman, jordan.
Hi Rula, hello, you have, look,so much experience in the
region and I've known you foryears and you've covered a lot
of the conflicts.

(19:35):
We often headline these storiesof what's happening in Lebanon
more refugees on the move.
It's a crisis and I thinkpeople's eyes glaze over.
Can you give me someperspective on how big this is

(19:55):
and how much bigger it may getas it is unfolding as we speak?

Rula Amin (20:01):
So when we talk about how big, there are different
issues that we can use toillustrate that.
So, on one hand, in terms ofthe Israeli bombardment and the
number of people killed, this ismuch bigger than what we saw in
2006 war, which was consideredto be a very vicious war, which

(20:22):
was considered to be a veryvicious war, and just to give
you one example, in one day,more than 550 Lebanese and
refugees were killed.
So in one day, and that's alarge number for a very small

(20:43):
country like Lebanon, that isonly about 5 to 6 million people
.
The other thing is to rememberwhy this is causing so much
suffering is that before thiscrisis began, lebanon was going
through a very severesocioeconomic crisis.
Inflation is so high At $1 usedto make, you know, we would
exchange $1 for 1,500 Syrianliras.

(21:03):
We would exchange $1 for 1,500Syrian liras.

Dana Lewis (21:05):
That has jumped between 100,000 and 150,000,
sometimes 70,000, but you can Afinancial collapse in Lebanon
really.

Rula Amin (21:16):
A financial collapse.
So that means not only peopledon't have the resources, but
also the government'sinfrastructure to provide basic
services has also been crippled.
And this crisis comes.
It starts in October.
We start seeing peopledisplaced, fleeing the bombings,
but it was mostly concentratedin the south and it was a little

(21:39):
bit more targeted.
So until last week we saw about111,000 Lebanese and refugees
who had to flee their homes.
That's, you know it's a largenumber, but that happened over
months and then within one week,we are now talking about almost

(22:01):
the government says a millionpeople displaced.
The UN estimates is more than300,000, maybe 400,000.
Every day the number increases,but it's definitely hundreds of
thousands of people who had toflee.
It's definitely hundreds ofthousands of people who had to
flee, which means these people,you know, left their homes in a
hurry.
They couldn't pick up anything.
Basically, some even forgottheir civil documents, because

(22:26):
sometimes they get this warningfrom the Israeli army that they
need to leave immediatelybecause the bombing is going to
start in minutes.
So they just run, many of them.
They don't carry any clothes,any spare clothes and, with the
expanding of targets and areasthat are being targeted by the
Israeli army, their choice ofwhat is a safe spot and where is

(22:47):
a safe place that we can run to.
That choice has been shrinkingbecause the areas that are not
being targeted are alsoshrinking.

Dana Lewis (22:55):
Yeah, as we were getting ready to do the
interview.
Sorry to jump in, but the IDFon the ground was ordering the
evacuation of at least 27villages in South Lebanon north
of the Israeli-Lebanese border.
And when you look at those 27villages it's an area some 30

(23:16):
miles north of the border.
That's a huge area.

Rula Amin (23:20):
Yes, and even the bombings.
Before that, they had beenexpanded to other areas, like
the southern suburbs of Beirut,the Beqa.
And one thing to keep in mind,too, when we talk about the
scope of this conflict is thatbefore this crisis started,
lebanon hosted at least amillion and a half Syrian
refugees who had fled the war inSyria in the past few years,

(23:45):
crossed to Lebanon to findsafety, to find shelter.
They thought they areprotecting their families In
addition to Iraqi refugees,palestinian refugees.
So Lebanon used to host thelargest number of refugees in
comparison to its per capita inthe world, that's, the largest

(24:05):
number of refugees hosted in onecountry per capita in the world
.
So now we're not looking onlyat Lebanese who had to flee, but
we're also talking about peoplewho had come, who fled Syria to
come to Lebanon, for example,and now they are reliving the
experience.
They thought they are bringingtheir families here to protect
them from the violence in Syriaand suddenly they see these

(24:27):
bombs falling on them.
They run and they keep onrunning because every day when
they go to one place and thetargeting area is expanded, they
have to flee again.
The government did expand, triedto accommodate, so they
established these almost 800makeshift shelters, but it's
basically schools that are nowhousing all these people who

(24:51):
fled.
But it's not enough, becausethe number, according to the
government, is reaching a 1million.
We're not so sure.
It's not enough, because thenumber, according to the
government, is reaching a onemillion.
We're not so sure.
It's all estimates, but it'shundreds of thousands of people.
So they have been sleeping inthe open air along the corniche
in Beirut.
They need everything they needcash, assist, they need water,
they need food, they needmattresses, they need blankets,

(25:14):
they need diapers, they needmedicine, they need medical care
, they need blankets, they needdiapers, they need medicine,
they need medical care and, mostof all, they want to feel safe.
They want to be protected.
So most of the people have beenon the move for days now, some
of them more than 100,000 atleast, and we think the number
could be.
By the end of today we jump to180,000.

(25:35):
By the end of today we jumpedto 180,000.
Most of them sorry those peopleLebanese and Syrians chose to
cross the border into Syria.
So on one hand, you haveLebanese fleeing into Syria and
you have Syrians who fled Syriato Lebanon in the past few years
now finding it that it's betterfor them to cross back to Syria

(25:57):
to try to avoid and escape theviolence and the bombs.

Dana Lewis (26:02):
You know, yeah, it's what a disaster.
And I was listening to the IDFspokesman.
Haghari did a live newsconference which was carried in
many different places, and hewent way out of his way to talk
about the fact that, you know,many of these homes in South
Lebanon were staging areas forthe Hezbollah.
Many of them have tunnelsunderneath them, many of them

(26:23):
are weapons storage facilities.
You know, in essence he linksthe people and the population of
South Lebanon with the terror,as he calls it, spread by the
Hezbollah.
So it paints not a very goodpicture of the people who are on

(26:46):
the move.
But you can't do that to amillion people, can you?

Rula Amin (26:51):
You know I'm here representing a humanitarian
agency, and so what we say inthese situations is that, no
matter what are thecircumstances, the protection of
civilians during conflict isstipulated by international law,
and that law had been put therespecifically to address

(27:11):
situations like intenseconflicts like what's happening
now.
The warring parties have a dutythey must do everything
possible to avoid targetingcivilians and they need to
ensure the protection ofcivilians.
What we are seeing on thestreets of Lebanon, in the
shelters, are whole families,women, children, teenagers,

(27:36):
elderly so all kinds ofpopulations on the run and
fleeing, and what they'retelling us is they feel that
they, the civilian population,has borne the brunt of this
conflict and this war so far.
And every day the conflictcontinues, there will be more

(27:57):
people who are losing theirlives, more people displaced,
the needs will grow more.
Now, a humanitarian agency, aidagency like UNHCR, we're on the
ground and we've been inLebanon for decades, mostly
helping vulnerable refugees andLebanese and Lebanese.
Now we're still on the ground,providing water, you know,

(28:17):
providing blankets, mattresses,sleeping mats, helping repair
shelters, helping equip thesemakeshift schools on how to be
safe for people to come in.
But that's not enough, becausethe numbers increase by the day
and so are their needs.
So today, the UN humanitarianagencies in Lebanon, they made
this appeal to the internationalcommunity and they said we need

(28:39):
over $420 million to be able torespond to the needs of this
displaced population and thepeople who have not been
displaced, because there arepeople who are still in their
homes but maybe get displaced,but they can't go to work.
They need aid.
I'll give you an example thosepeople, for example, who crossed

(29:04):
the border into Syria.
So I have UNHCR colleagues whoare on the ground in Syria and
they are trying to help.
So we provide water, food,blankets, mattresses.
We establish these big tents,rub holes, we call them for
people to stay in and to sparethem the sun as they are being
processed.
But we're giving them this kindof assistance on the day they
arrive.
And they arrive exhausted,traumatized.

(29:27):
Many of them have reached theborder by foot, those who even
took transportation.
It took them hours to get tothe border and they really don't
have a plan for the next day.
They don't know what will theirnext day look like.
As we are speaking, like earlythis morning, there was an
Israeli attack on the capital,damascus.

(29:48):
Now this is one of the areasthat these people who are
fleeing the bombing in Lebanonare heading to.
So it's really becoming it'syou feel that the Lebanese, the
refugees who are hosted inLebanon, they're all stuck in
this very cruel situation wherethey can't find safety anywhere.
Lebanon is a very small countryand they don't have the means,

(30:10):
you know, to buy a plane ticketand go to Cyprus, for example.
They don't have the means torent an apartment because of the
economic situation that wasprevailing inside Lebanon before
this.
So you can see that thecivilian population, really they
have been suffering immensely.
They are terrified, feel veryvulnerable and they need urgent

(30:34):
help.

Dana Lewis (30:38):
I put you on the spot and asked you to predict
where this is going to go,because as news correspondents,
we covered lots of these rightand they are different every
time and they are distinct everytime, but they are also some of
them run in parallel with oneanother.
The Israelis are saying limitedground operation Raids they are

(31:00):
using the term raids, whichwould suggest they go in with
special forces, they try todismantle part of the Hezbollah
launch areas and staging areasand then they maybe go out again
.
The reality is, in pastconflicts in Lebanon, the go-out
part, the go-back part, is longdelayed and doesn't happen in

(31:26):
some cases for years.
That is a very big problem forseveral million people.

Rula Amin (31:34):
Yes, you know we work with UNHCR.
We work with refugee situationsaround the globe and
unfortunately, in the past years, the number of years where
people stay displaced before itbecomes safe to go back for them
to their original towns andvillages is now almost 10 years.
That's a long time.

(31:55):
It's a long time because people, when they run, they have
nothing with them In thebeginning.
The international communitysometimes is committed and they
start providing assistance, butwith every passing year the
support for them decreases whiletheir needs increase, because
whatever means they had, even ifthey had sold their own golden

(32:16):
bracelets they have exhaustedtheir personal means to be able
to survive.

Dana Lewis (32:21):
And they're out of the headlines and support
decreases.
People tire of it.

Rula Amin (32:27):
It may be charitable in the beginning, but over time…
and the crisis emerges, it's inthe headlines because of the
politics and they are forgottenand then they're left on their
own to try to make ends meet toprotect their children.
When we say we don't have theresources to meet all the needs,
that's a dangerous situation,because what does it mean?

(32:49):
It means these families theystop eating proper food or the
parents stop eating so that theycan feed their children.
The nutritious food is notavailable anymore.
When the kids get sick, theycan't take them to a doctor.
They sometimes have to drop outof school because they need to
go to work to assist the parents.
These are consequences thataffect not only the present time

(33:14):
, but it has effect throughoutgenerations of people in the
region and beyond.
The Syria crisis, for exampleit's been going on for 13 years
and until this day, there are7.2 million people displaced
inside Syria and there are morethan 5 million Syrian refugees
just in the countriessurrounding Syria Jordan, turkey

(33:37):
, lebanon, iraq and Egypt.
That's a huge number.
That means there aregenerations of children who
haven't been able to go toschool, who have not had the
right food to be healthy, andthis will affect the whole
region.
It doesn't affect this onepopulation.

Dana Lewis (33:54):
So you really, when you listen, even if there is
sympathy for Israel, which hashad shelling on its northern
border for a year, since October7th, and the Hamas raid into
southern Israel and thekidnapping of Israelis, even if
you sympathize with the factthat Israel has a right to take
action against the Hezbollah,you have to discuss

(34:17):
proportionality and thus thecalls around the globe by many
different governments callingfor a ceasefire now, because
they're saying you're nevergoing to dismantle Hezbollah,
all of it, and you can't do thisto the people now that are
caught in the crossfire.
You can only go so far, andthey are probably already going

(34:38):
far enough by launching thisground operation today as we
speak.

Rula Amin (34:43):
You know, as a humanitarian agency, is where we
are on the ground in so manydifferent conflicts.
We always say humanitarian aidcannot end the suffering of
people, it can only ease some ofit.
But, the only way, the onlysolution to end people's
suffering and the consequencesis to end these conflicts and to

(35:03):
be, you know, to be probablymore blunt, is to try to preempt
these conflicts and avoid themerupting from the first place,
because the minute it startsit's so hard to roll the ball
back.
And now what we are dealingwith in Lebanon is displaced
Lebanese, displaced refugees whoare making very difficult

(35:26):
choices on where to go and howcan they go.
Who will receive them?
What is a safe spot?
So we are seeing this as peoplehave carried their children
from one street to another, fromone corner in Beirut to another
, trying to stay safe.
They hear the news the minuteyou hear about a ground invasion

(35:47):
.
They are not sitting there andassessing whether it's going to
be limited, five kilos, 10 kilos.
All they know is that this isan escalation, it's going to
bring more intensification ofthe bombing and duration of this
war and again they are soterrified.

Dana Lewis (36:06):
And, by the way, even if you get a ceasefire and
you know this better than meeven if you get a ceasefire in
place, what are they going tohave to go back to?

Rula Amin (36:16):
That's another thing.
You know.
We, our colleagues, met peoplewho are Syrian refugees, who
were crossing the border back toSyria, and we asked them where
are you going?
And they said we don't know.
All we know is that we'rerunning from the bombs.
We will try to get to our townsand villages.
We're not sure if our homes arestill standing.

Dana Lewis (36:39):
But for today, this is what we're doing to run away
from the violence.
Yeah, man, I guess any of uswho have children and loved ones
you just try to move yourfamily and get the hell out of
an emerging hell around you.

Rula Amin (36:51):
And you know there's so many civilians who have been
killed and it's not somethingthat one has to work very hard
to prove.
We lost two of our colleaguesin UNHCR.
One is a UNHCR colleague whohas been working with UNHCR for
12 years.
She was at her home in the Beqa.
The airstrike hit her building.
Her husband and one of thechildren were rescued, but they

(37:14):
are in a critical situation andshe and one of her children you
know they passed away.
We lost them under the rubble.
We have another colleague alsowho was in a cafe.
It got struck and he was killed.
So we know of many cases wherethese people are.
The civilians are paying a very, very high price for this

(37:36):
conflict and they just want itto end.
For now they're looking for asafe spot, they want to protect
their children, they need allkinds of assistance and that's
why we say, you know, we call onthe international community,
countries with influence, likethe United States, who always
say we have two appeals.
Like the United States, whoalways say we have two appeals

(37:59):
One is to provide the financialresources that are needed for us
to be able to continue meetingthe needs, to continue
delivering assistance, and theother thing is to pressure the
parties to end this today,before tomorrow.

Dana Lewis (38:11):
Yeah, because they're just going to get in
deeper and deeper.
Rula, you and I have coveredconflicts like that and the idea
of any short war.
I haven't seen one, even thoughthey're always headlined as
that and limited incursions.
So, rula Amin with the UNHCR,rula, it's great to talk to you.
Thank you so much.

Rula Amin (38:30):
Thanks for having me.

Dana Lewis (38:31):
Thanks for having me.
Kareem Shaheen is a newsletterseditor for New Lines magazine
and he joins us from Quebec,Canada.
Hi, Kareem, and I shouldmention you were a Guardian
reporter and you were based inBeirut for many years.

Kareem Shaheen (38:51):
Correct.
Thank you for having me, Dana.
Yeah, I was based in Beirut forthe Guardian and then later on
in Istanbul and right now I'mthe newsletters editor but also
the Middle East editor at themagazine.
So I'm kind of responsible forour Middle East coverage and we
do mostly long form journalism,you know, for people who want

(39:14):
something a little bit more, Notlong enough, because just
before the interview, I wastelling you you have to write
your book now, right?

Dana Lewis (39:24):
So let me ask you you've written an essay that I
read the other day on thekilling of Hassan Nasrallah,
which I consider to be asignificant event because he's
the head of Hezbollah, but youwent sort of way beyond,
probably, and see him as a muchweightier leader than maybe we

(39:45):
give him credit for.

Kareem Shaheen (39:47):
Correct.
Yeah, I mean, I think hisinfluence over Hezbollah is very
much, as we said in the piece,the soul of Hezbollah.
He created the machinery of theorganization that went on to
become a linchpin of Iran'spower projection in the region.
He was instrumental in thepreservation of Bashar
al-Assad's regime in Syriathrough his intervention of it.

(40:11):
It he's very much a figure thatwas ever-present, that was
culturally incrediblysignificant for both Lebanon and
for the rest of the region,whether you hated him or whether
you supported his campaignagainst Israel by any Arab force

(40:45):
.
And he was obviouslyinstrumental in Israel's
withdrawal from Lebanon back in2000.
Back in 2000,.
Israel's occupation of Lebanon,starting in 1982, was a key
event that led to the creationof Hezbollah.
He, you know, up until theearly 2010s, hezbollah's leader,

(41:07):
was probably the most popularArab leader in the region and
you know his legacy, obviouslyin Lebanon was very complicated
because of the brutality thatHezbollah visited on its
opponents inside the country,the political assassinations
they carried out against liberalpoliticians who opposed them
and who opposed theirstranglehold over Lebanon.
Uh, and obviously for the, forthe people who saw them as uh,

(41:31):
as a sectarian militia primarily, rather than a, a movement that
was meant to resist Israel'soccupation and they had the guns
, you know, so they could alwaysintimidate anyone that opposed
them inside Lebanon.
But for the rest of the region,you know, up until 2011,.
He was someone who was seen asone of the few Arab leaders who

(41:51):
was willing to stand up toIsrael and to its leaders, who
was willing to stand up toIsrael and to its actions in the
region.

Dana Lewis (42:02):
But after the war in Syria began and Hezbollah
joined, yeah, I wanted to askyou about Syria, because that's
where the love for Nasrallah ifthere is love for him in the
Middle East turns pretty sour.
I mean, he is responsible forthe killing of tens of thousands
and helping the Assad regime inSyria for killing tens of
thousands of Syrians during theSyrian civil war.

Kareem Shaheen (42:25):
Correct.
Yeah, I mean, we comparedNasrallah in the piece to Gamal
Abdel Nasser, the infamousex-Egyptian president who was
very much synonymous with thedream of pan-Arab nationalism
and the unification of the Arabworld.
And you know, nasser lost everysingle war he went to with
Israel, but he's still reveredby many figures in the region,

(42:48):
by many ordinary people in theregion.
Nasrallah occupied a verysimilar space.
They carried out immensebrutality against their
opponents in Lebanon, but theyalso trafficked in this currency
that, according to them,represented Arab dignity, which

(43:08):
is that there were no Arableaders who were willing to
stand up to Israel, except forNasrallah and before him, nasser
.
And you know the fact that heended up joining the war in
Syria.
I mean, hezbollah carried outsome, you know, horrible crimes
in the course of the conflict.
You know they starved Syriancivilians in this border town

(43:31):
called Madaya that, you know,for a brief amount of time, was
the focus of international mediaattention.
That you know literallybesieging people and starving
them to death.
You know, in addition to thefact that they just you know
they propped up this regime, itwas in defense of the
indefensible, you know, as wesaid, in peace.
So you know, at that pointHezbollah became much more

(43:54):
broadly seen in the region as aninstrument of Iranian power
projection and essentially asectarian militia that was no
different than any other.
You know, brutal occupation inthe region.

Dana Lewis (44:06):
So can you explain this paragraph that you wrote in
the essay?
And I'll just read it, and I'lljust read it.
He provided the ideological andoperational template for
militias and Islamist groupsthat stretched far beyond
Hezbollah.
Even extremist groups likeal-Qaeda and Islamic State group
have borrowed from his playbook, imitating Hezbollah's ability

(44:27):
to merge military action withpolitical legitimacy and mass
mobilization, and even emulatinghis style and persona, I mean
what was so different about whathe was doing?

Kareem Shaheen (44:44):
Correct?
Yeah, I mean.
Hezbollah, you know, has alwaysbeen a dual political and
military organization in Lebanon.
You know it was a grassrootsorganization.
That, yes, they became anIranian client, but they were
founded due to real grievancesin Lebanon, whether that had to
do with the ongoing civil warand the destruction that was
happening in Lebanon in the1980s, whether it has to do with

(45:06):
the Israeli occupation ofLebanese land and whether it had
to do with the marginalizationof Shiites in Lebanon, you know,
who were always, you know kindof not part of the elite power
structure in the country,grassroots movement that still

(45:38):
has, you know, roots all acrossSouth Lebanon and the southern
suburbs of Beirut.
You know where the party'sconstituents lived and were
based.
But you know, in addition tothat, there was a lot of
logistical efforts.
I mean, hezbollah was, you know, for the longest time seen as
this crown jewel in Iran'smilitia network, and for good

(45:59):
reason.
They had established thisdeterrence to the archenemy that
even all these terrorist groupsthat terrorize civilians all
across the region they stillclaim that to be their highest
ideal the liberation ofJerusalem.
Meanwhile, hezbollah was one ofthe few militias that was
actually in combat with Israelon a regular basis.

Dana Lewis (46:22):
They went out of In a fearsome way and put the
Israeli army back on their heelsmore than once.

Kareem Shaheen (46:28):
Correct and that's why for them, you know
they used to tout the 2006 waras the divine victory, even
though you know much of Lebanonwas destroyed in the course of
Israel's, you know, aerialcampaign over Lebanon and over
Beirut.
You know they were able to holdthe Israeli suspense and they
won by denying Israel the aimsthat they had stated, you know,

(46:48):
when they launched the 2006campaign.
But you know Hezbollah has usedthis position, you know, as a
way to also spread its influencefar and wide.
You know they were training allthese Iraqi militias, iraqi
Shiite militias.
They were, you know, trainingthe Houthis in Yemen.
They obviously, you know,intervened in the war in Syria

(47:11):
and were an instrumental part ofthe campaign there and of
training other groups andprofessionalizing them to allow
for greater Iranian powerprojection in the region.
So they both inspired thosegroups and were directly
involved in improving theircapabilities.

Dana Lewis (47:31):
And over your many coffees and getting to know the
Lebanese as well as you did bybeing based in Beirut, was there
a lot of resentment indifferent areas of Lebanon, of
the state within the state.
I mean.
The Hezbollah essentially hashijacked the state, not allowed
government to function, has beena violent organization within

(47:55):
Lebanon itself.

Kareem Shaheen (47:57):
Correct.
Yeah, but you know, as withanything Lebanon, it was a
polarizing question.
You know there were people whodirectly benefited, obviously,
from Hezbollah's power.
There were people who, you know, would think of the struggle
against Israel as being theparamount cause in the Arab

(48:19):
world, and so they were preparedto overlook Hezbollah's crimes
in Syria and its assassinationof opposition politicians
because it was in service ofpreserving this resistance to
Israel.
And obviously, there were thevictims of Hezbollah's actions.
You know whether that was theLebanese politicians and their

(48:41):
families who were killed byHezbollah, whether it was the
people who felt that Lebanon'sdevelopment and Lebanon's
realization of Lebanon'spotential, both politically and
economically, was stymied byHezbollah's allegiance to a
foreign power.
There were the Lebanesenationalists, you know, who felt
that the country should besovereign.

(49:03):
You know that the nation stateshould be sovereign and that it
should have power over itsforeign policy and its borders.
And therefore, you know,hezbollah should be disarmed
because it was bullying the restof the Lebanese.
So you know, and there wereobviously the people who saw it
in more religious terms, youknow that Hezbollah was
essentially a Shiite millenarianmovement that you know,

(49:27):
preserved Shiite supremacy bothin Lebanon and across the rest
of the region.
So there were many diverseviewpoints on this and there
wasn't one belief, one way orthe other, that predominated.

Dana Lewis (49:42):
How earth-shaking do you think?
The assassination of Nasrallah?
Many of the top leaders, manyothers are in hospital, even
low-level lieutenants, fieldlieutenants, are in the hospital
because of, you know, withthese explosion of pagers.
This is pretty jarring to thatorganization.

(50:03):
How debilitating is it?
And and followed up as we speak, the israelis are launching a
ground war today, howeverlimited they claim it may be
yeah, it's, it's enormous.

Kareem Shaheen (50:16):
I mean, there's no denying that this was a an
enormous victory for for israeland, uh, and a major defeat for
hezbollah.
I think hezbollah is, uh isfacing a um, uh, you know,
crossroads right now.
Uh, the party and the movementis trying to absorb the shocks,
uh, the repeated shocks.
In fact, I mean, if you lookback, it's only been a week

(50:38):
since the Pager's attack, whichwas an extraordinary event
Moving at lightning speed,correct?
Yeah, I mean, it's anextraordinary event, and
Israel's decapitation of theleadership is not something that
is just limited to Nasrallah.
Obviously, as you alluded to,they essentially assassinated
the entirety of the top militaryechelon of the party and a lot

(51:00):
of their political leaders.
So whether how much of thecommand and control structure
continues to exist, who'scalling the shots, who's going
to call the shots in a few weeksis very much an open question
and I think, as well as on andis on the defensive right now,
they're in the position wherethey're, you know, trying to
absorb all of these shocks andand and trying to see if the, if

(51:24):
the party survives intact, youknow, after this campaign is is
over and whether this campaignends up being over, but it is
worth remembering that Hasbllahwas born out of Israel's ground
invasion of Lebanon in 1982.

Dana Lewis (51:40):
They changed out the PLO and they got the
Hezbollah.

Kareem Shaheen (51:42):
Correct, and so you know what the Israelis end
up with after Hezbollah.
Post-nasrallah is very much anopen question.
Ground invasions are veryfinicky.
You know, there's alwaysanother hill to take over
because the guys over the nexthill are threatening your

(52:05):
positions.

Dana Lewis (52:07):
And you get an army gets sucked in further and
further.

Kareem Shaheen (52:11):
Correct.
Yeah, and as the economistcorrespondent in Israel, anshul
Pfeffer, said today, israel isvery good at invading, but they
don't always have an exit plan.
And whether that exit plancomes under the guns of the next
iteration of whatever movementemerges out of the ashes of the

(52:36):
conflict right now is very muchup to the question.

Dana Lewis (52:39):
Is there a big danger there for Israel, do you
think?
When you look at what happenedto American forces in Iraq, for
instance, there are militiasthat are sympathetic to the
Hezbollah in Iraq, in Syria.
They are funded, they aretrained by Iran.
This doesn't easily end, and ifIsrael wades too deep in that

(53:00):
water, I wouldn't say they woulddrown, but I would say that
they can find themselvesfighting for air.

Kareem Shaheen (53:09):
Look, I mean, the challenge is that there's no
denying that what israelachieved over the past week, um,
in lebanon anyway, uh is, um,is an immense strategic and
tactical success.
Um, I mean, they, theyperceived hasbullah as their
greatest uh rival in the region,um, in the immediate

(53:29):
neighborhood anyway, um, youknow, outside of iran, uh, and,
and they, they truly uh, theparty, like right now, the party
does not have the capacity torespond to Israel in the same
way it would have if it stillretained its leadership, if it
still retained its arsenal.
And so Israel is going to takethe lesson from this that

(53:50):
violence does work, you know, asa solution.
The problem is that Israel iskind of stumbling from operation
to operation, where they seeeverything, as you know, the
square peg problem, whereviolence is the only solution to
everything.
And so they're going, they'relurching from war to war, from
military operation to militaryoperation, without any end game

(54:12):
in sight, and eventually thiswill catch up to them.
Because you know, if youalienate all of your neighbors,
if you alienate all the partners, potentially, you know for
peace, by going ahead andinvading Lebanon, or you know
assassinating all of these topleaders.
The thing is, you know what theIsraelis have proven is that

(54:33):
nobody's out of reach, right?
You know, they assassinatedQasem Soleimani back in 2020.
It was the Americans whoassassinated Qasem Soleimani
back in 2020, and Iran did notrespond.
Then Israel assassinated IsmailHaniyeh, the leader of Hamas.
You know, a few months ago InIran, nothing happened exactly,
and now it was Nasrallah's turn,you know, and so the Israelis

(54:56):
are very much saying that nobodyis out of our crosshairs.
And eventually, this orgy ofviolence.
What is it going to lead to?
What is the end game as aresult of it?
Ismail Hani's assassination ledto Nasrallah's assassination,
and the assassination ofHezbollah stopped military
echelons.

(55:16):
Nasrallah's assassination nowleads to a ground invasion.
And then what will the groundinvasion lead to after that?
So there's clearly no end gamethat the Israelis have, even if
the violence is working in theshort term.
And so if there is no plan forwhat peace looks like in the
aftermath of all of thisviolence, then where are we
going?
You know what's the end goal?

(55:37):
I think it's a huge problem andyou know there are no scenarios
that are, you know, out of theimagination now, because Israel
is ready to do anything.

Dana Lewis (55:51):
What would be your worst case scenario?

Kareem Shaheen (55:55):
what would be your worst case scenario, if I
mean, if Israel continues alongthis path, you know you very
quickly end up in a situationwhere the only way to stability
and peace in the region may bemutually assured destruction.
You know, if Israel perceivesthat it has the power and the
righteousness and the ability topursue all of these enemies

(56:16):
through these military means andthe only way to deter Israel,
you know, and this includes alsoits Gulf partners, you know,
and other states that don't havea quarrel with Israel, but if
Israel is willing to pursuethese sorts of military aims
against any organization orstate or party that opposes

(56:37):
Israel's regional policies, thenthe only deterrent is for
everyone to have nuclear weapons, everyone to have an arsenal
that can have the capacity todeter Israel truly from military
adventurism.

Dana Lewis (56:52):
I guess Israel would melt this down right now,
though, and say, hey, they'vebeen shooting rockets at us for
a year over our northern border.
The shooting has to stop, andwe don't care if they're in
support of Palestinians in Gazaor not.
No country would put up withthat, and that's what we're
going to do, and a lot of peoplewill sympathize with them.

Kareem Shaheen (57:13):
Correct.
Yeah, and that's what theAmericans are saying right now.
You know which is uh, which isthat?
Uh, yeah, we don't want aregional war in the middle East,
but you know Israel has a rightto defend itself.
Um, but equally uh, you know,if you consider the other side
of it, um, you know Israel uh isessentially uh terrorizing much

(57:39):
of Lebanon.
I mean, you know the attacksare not limited to the south,
where they want to establish.
You know deterrence over there.
You know there's a millionLebanese civilians who want to
leave their homes.

Dana Lewis (57:46):
A million and that rolls off our tongues pretty
quick, right, but a millionpeople on the move who will
probably have no homes to goback to, by the way, even if you
get a ceasefire in place now,because a lot of it's being
destroyed and it's only a smallcountry.

Kareem Shaheen (58:02):
It's a million people out of a population of 4
million.
It's literally a quarter of thecountry has fled, you know, as
a result of these attacks, youknow, 100,000 people have
crossed over into Syria, forGod's sake, you know, and that's
where they're seeking shelterand safety.
You know, this is a countrythat's been in economic freefall

(58:23):
for years, where you knoweveryone is impoverished, where,
you know the country has beensuffering for such a long time.
And, don't get me wrong, Ithink that the solution right
now is for, you know, for thespace to be created for Lebanon
to reclaim its own sovereignty.
You know, this is a goldenopportunity, I think, for the

(58:47):
Lebanese states to be empowered,for the Lebanese military to
take control over its borders.
Except, you know, nobody cares.
The only thing that matters isthose short-term gains of, you
know, which leader has beenassassinated, which bombing
operation has been successfuland the chess-beating part of

(59:11):
war, you know, and nothing elsematters.
No political solution, nothing.

Dana Lewis (59:16):
Wouldn't that be wonderful for Lebanon.
If this is a turning point,inflection point to, to steal
somebody else's term Um, if thisis a great inflection point for
Lebanon to to take sovereigntyand control and to be able to
get its government working againand remove, I mean Hezbollah

(59:37):
has been part of the paralysis.

Kareem Shaheen (59:40):
Correct.
Yeah, I mean.
Except, you know, in all thesesituations, you know the region
is run by middle managers.
You know it's not run by actualleaders with a vision.
You know, I mean Netanyahu islurching from war to war because
it's essential for itspolitical survival currently and
there is no end game in place.
And so this idea that we mightlook for an opportunity or a

(01:00:03):
silver lining within thisabsolute catastrophe that's
occurring and trying to figureout a way for the Lebanese state
to exist in its aftermath isvery much not a question that's
on the mind of Westernpolicymakers or Israeli
policymakers, largely becauseArab lives don't really matter.
You know it's unfortunate.

(01:00:25):
In their view, correct?
Yeah, of course.
Yeah, as an Arab myself, Icertainly hope that my life does
matter.
But you know, it's anunfortunate reality in this
world that Hezbollah is payingfor its crimes against Lebanese
civilians and against Syriancivilians of the poorest parts

(01:00:46):
of Beirut, you know, andvaporizing six or seven
apartment buildings in theprocess, and nobody's talking
about that, nobody cares aboutthe people who were there,
because, you know, nasrallah wasthe ultimate target and he was

(01:01:07):
killed, and that's obviously amonumental event for the region.
But the reality is that it wasa mass casualty event in which,
uh, you know, a huge number ofcivilians was was vaporized by
it, and, and that you know thenumber of people who've been
killed in lebanon uh, already,uh, rivals, uh, the number of
people who died in the entiretyof the 2006 war, which lasted a

(01:01:29):
whole month, um, and, and thesame number of people have
already been killed in about aweek of hostilities.

Dana Lewis (01:01:36):
And unfortunately if I would add my comment none
of these conflicts, whether itbe in Gaza or the West Bank, or
in Syria or in Lebanon, none ofthem, unfortunately end with
moderates being strengthened.
It's people who are very angry,who have lost loved ones.

(01:01:56):
It breathes and empowers hatredin the region and Netanyahu,
despite standing on the podiumsaying he's just defending
northern Israel right now, hasprobably not been one of the
greatest detractors from anykind of peace process with

(01:02:18):
Palestinians and others.

Kareem Shaheen (01:02:20):
So yeah, yeah, you're absolutely right.
I mean, the Jordanian foreignminister was at the UN recently
and you know the UN GeneralAssembly meetings and he sounded
incredibly irritated by, youknow, questions related to peace
in the region, because he wassaying that you know, I'm

(01:02:41):
representing a group ofcountries that have repeatedly
said that they're willing toguarantee Israel's security,
that they're willing tocompletely normalize with Israel
in exchange for a Palestinianstate, for a Palestinian state.
And the reality is that theagenda that Netanyahu is
pursuing in the region of thisperpetual war is because he does

(01:03:02):
not want a two-state solution,he does not want a solution for
the Palestinians, he wants towin it all and he does not have
an endgame in sight.

Dana Lewis (01:03:11):
And as a result, we're suffering problems.
Our next interview with Karimis going to be what does win it
all mean?
But nobody's quite sure whatthat looks like, but probably
just stagnation and ignoring thePalestinian problem, which
Netanyahu has done for hisentire career.
But hey, man, thank you so much.

Miri Eisan (01:03:33):
It's a pleasure.

Kareem Shaheen (01:03:34):
Thank you for having me.

Dana Lewis (01:03:36):
Do the Lebanese book and let me know.
Thank you so much for having me, dan.
I appreciate it.
Thank you, take care, andthat's our backstory this week,
thanks to our terrific guests.
If you like the podcast, shareit with someone else.
I'm Dana Lewis.
Thanks for listening.
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