October 20, 2023 • 26 mins
Join us as we traverse the complex terrain of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict with Yossi Beilin, a key figure in crafting the original Oslo peace accords. Yossi's insightful reflections on the current crisis in Gaza shine a light on the international outcry and the potential routes towards a resolution.
Beilin blames Israeli P.M. Netanyahu for the current crisis in Israel, and for allowing Hamas to strengthen, ignoring what was a ticking time bomb in Gaza.
Now is the time he says to come to a two state solution agreement.
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Episode Transcript
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Dana Lewis (00:30):
Hi everyone and welcome to another edition of
Backstory.
I'm Dana Lewis.
Israel, under tremendouspressure to call it all off yes,
(00:54):
the most deadly, atrocious,bloody, barbaric attack on
Israeli since the Holocaust byHamas.
But the international outcryover Israel's attack on Gaza to
remove Hamas is unprecedented,too Spiking because of a bomb
attack on a Gaza hospital.
Israel blames Islamic Jihad,palestinians blame Israel.
(01:15):
The pressure on Arab leadersincreasing by the day, by their
own residents, the threat ofthis conflict spreading only
growing.
But Israel's lost over athousand people to a terrorist
organization that is committedto its destruction.
On this backstory, I talked toan Israeli who was one of the
great voices for peace, withactual, practical ideas on how
(01:39):
to make it happen, not to allowthe entire region to be hijacked
by the extremists.
That's what's happening rightnow.
But Yossi Baylan, an architectof the original Oslo peace
accords, believes that themajority of Palestinians and
Israelis deserve their voice tobe heard and if they get a
chance to speak through this war, it will be about a peaceful
(02:02):
solution.
Have a listen, because Baylanis specific about what a peace
treaty can look like.
Yossi Baylan is a formerJustice Minister and Deputy
Minister.
Foreign Minister of Israel.
He participated in the backchannel negotiations that
(02:24):
eventually led to the adoptionof the 1993 Oslo Accords, a
framework agreement to end thePalestinian-Israeli conflict.
Welcome, mr Baylan, thank you.
Thank you for having me, andyou are, if I may personally say
, one of the most measured,sober, reasonable voices from
Israel that, as a journalist,I've had the pleasure to
(02:46):
interview you many times,especially during my time in
Jerusalem.
Can I first of all just getyour reaction to this crisis in
Gaza, especially in light of thefact that President Biden has
just landed?
Arab leaders have canceledmeetings with him because of
this bombing that has occurredat the Gaza hospital, where both
(03:07):
sides are accusing the otherone of being responsible for it.
Yossi Beilin (03:12):
Yeah, of course it is not Israel.
I'm convinced that the optionwhich was showed by the Israeli
Army spokesman about an Islamicjihad-failed rocket which was
launched and did this crazy,crazy damage to innocent people,
(03:37):
that this is the right one.
Israel will never do somethinglike this intentionally, and you
know Israel.
It made many mistakes and itbut nothing like that could be
(03:59):
done.
I mean, all these events happenregretfully.
Civilians are the victims.
This is one of them and you arecrying for the victims, but it
doesn't mean that Israel doessuch things.
Even if there were peoplehiding in the hospital and for
(04:24):
Israel it would be essential toeliminate them there would have
been some warning.
I mean, there is no chance thatout of the blue, an Israeli
rocket will be launched to ahospital.
Dana Lewis (04:42):
This is just, in many ways, starting, isn't it?
Because the ground war hasn'teven taken place.
Israeli forces, which areassembling outside of Gaza, are
not on the move.
We all assume that they will be.
This is only going to get worsein terms of the propaganda that
Hamas and people who supportHamas are using.
(05:05):
It will get worse, will it not?
Yossi Beilin (05:08):
I can imagine, yes , people will be killed,
regretfully, on both sides.
Dana Lewis (05:16):
And why is that a danger to your neighbors?
Whether it be Egypt whichcanceled meetings with President
Biden, or yeah, doing.
Yossi Beilin (05:26):
Dale and.
Dana Lewis (05:26):
Jordan, or I mean, where does it place them in
terms of the pressure that theyare under with their own street
and public?
Yossi Beilin (05:33):
Exactly, it is the public opinion.
They understand that it is notIsrael, including Abu Mazen, I
can assure you.
But he cannot just ignore itand have diplomatic meetings
while something like thishappens and the people in the
street believe that it is theIsraelis who did it.
Dana Lewis (05:53):
Do you believe there's another way to take
Hamas out in Gaza, or is ourboots on the ground the only
solution?
It's the only solution.
Yossi Beilin (06:06):
It's the only solution.
I mean, there is another way todeal with the matter and to say
, okay, we should again findsome Modoso Vivendi with the
Hamas and, despite all thesethings, we will ignore it and
we'll negotiate with them ofcourse indirectly, because they
(06:27):
will never talk to Zionists andthen we will wait for the next
round.
I'm not there.
I'm not there anymore.
This was my view in the past.
I always preferred, of course,as you know, not to have a
violent and counter violentconflict if possible, but this
(06:50):
time, after what they did onSaturday, two weeks ago, enough
is enough.
You cannot go on like nothing.
You have to get rid of thisleadership, to paralyze it and
to replace it by others.
It can be the PalestinianAuthority, which is the best
(07:10):
option, and if not, perhaps aconsortium of Arab countries
like Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Jordanor others, or maybe the UN can
do something there.
As long as it is not Israel,it's fine with me.
Dana Lewis (07:32):
Don't you have to have a solution before you go in
there?
Yossi Beilin (07:36):
How?
What kind of a solution, withwhom?
With the Hamas, you mean?
Dana Lewis (07:42):
No, I mean, don't you have to know what the end
game is before you go in thereto remove Hamas?
Yossi Beilin (07:47):
You must, of course.
Actually, the world goes to warwithout even thinking about the
morning after, and this is whyI am talking about it all the
time In the media, in Israel,abroad.
The morning after is moreimportant than anything else.
If you don't know how to end it, don't enter.
(08:11):
You must know what is your aimat least.
Maybe you will not achieve it,but what is your aim?
Just to get rid of the Hamaspeople is not enough.
Dana Lewis (08:25):
Then you get rid of Hamas.
Do you think that that'sachievable?
And then, do you have anybelief that Abu Mazin's Fata
organization, the PLO, couldcome in there?
And again, because a lot ofpeople don't remember, they were
already there and in fact morethan 50% of Gazans weren't even
(08:47):
born when the Asura Erafats,Fata were on the ground.
But do you think that, inpractical terms, Fata could go
in and fill that vacuum?
A more secular, a more a power,an entity that is willing to at
least recognize the state ofIsrael and have peace
negotiations?
Yossi Beilin (09:06):
Yeah, and much more pragmatic.
I mean, that is, those who tryto portray the Hamas and Fata,
if they are from the same familyand want the same thing, how
those who did not want to havean agreement, like Netanyahu
himself.
He even preferred Hamas for awhile because he thought that if
(09:28):
Hamas is not demanding a state,then it is better for Israel,
which was stupidity.
Stupidity and dangers.
And he allowed them to staythere and to enhance the rule in
Gaza and to get the money fromQatar and whatever, rather than
(09:49):
to try and confront them.
I can understand thatconfronting them is very
difficult because it is costly.
The death toll will be paid, Imean, no question.
But to think that there arebetter counterparts?
Dana Lewis (10:12):
than the PLO.
This is stupidity.
Do you blame Prime MinisterNetanyahu for the intelligence
failure for?
Yossi Beilin (10:21):
blaming him, the intelligence failure.
You know, I blame him, but Imust tell you something about it
.
The main blame is about thepolicy, the ideology, the belief
that you can have peace withother Arab states and to leave
(10:41):
the Palestinian problem for theend.
This is the problem, you know.
The intelligence.
Of course, when something likethis happens, the intelligence
is to be blamed and all thosewho were above the heads of the
intelligence may pay the price.
But this is much more difficultto blame, because what happened
(11:05):
on Saturday, on the 7th ofOctober, is so unexpected.
It is a real black swan out ofthe blue.
There was not even a triggerfor this.
You could say, yeah, theyreacted to something, nothing
(11:25):
whatsoever.
These guys prepared themselvesfor a long while for a crazy
attack, beheading babies.
Who would think about suchthings, such acts?
It's really beyond any horizonof pragmatic people.
(11:46):
Of course, netanyahu will notremain the Prime Minister, I can
assure you, and he will pay theprice.
But this is not the main thing,because nobody could expect
something like that.
Dana Lewis (12:07):
Pardon, who pushed the launch button?
Do you think Iran Like why yousaid it was out of the blue, a
Black Swan event?
There was nothing explainable,there was no trigger.
So why now?
And who do you think initiatedit?
Yossi Beilin (12:25):
I know, I don't.
I tend to think that it isHamas, I mean, but maybe they
were directed by Iran.
In my view, this is almostsecondary to the main thing that
we have to make peace with thePLO.
They are our partners and withthem I believe that we can solve
(12:47):
the Palestinian issue by having, and the Israeli problems by
having, a two-state solution.
The biggest blame that Iattribute to Netanyahu is that
he did, since he did not want topartition the land and didn't
(13:07):
understand that, if he doesn'tpartition the land, there will
be no Jewish state, because theminority of Jews will, God
forbid, control a majority ofPalestinians.
Because he did not want to takethis needed decision, he was
ready to bypass it by otherideas, not understanding what
(13:31):
he's doing.
This is, I believe, a muchbigger accusation than saying
that he is in charge of the factthat the intelligence was not
aware of what was prepared underour laws.
Dana Lewis (13:47):
You were in the government when Yitzhak Rabin,
the Prime Minister, wasassassinated.
You, shimon Peres, rabinhimself, were saying at the time
over and over again if we don'tdo this now, the state of
Israel will eventually bethreatened that we can't go on
(14:11):
fighting in the occupation, andthat's why the Oslo Accords were
in many ways, supported by theIsraeli public at the time and
Netanyahu, who said he would notturn back the peace process.
I mean, if there was anybody atthe top of the pyramid who did
that, it was Netanyahu, was itnot?
Yossi Beilin (14:33):
Undoubtedly he is.
The Israeli should be blamedfor actually swathing the Oslo
Agreement by saying I'll do itmy way.
If you remember, as the head ofthe opposition, he promised to
cancel the agreement.
Then, when he became PrimeMinister, he understood that
this is impossible, or maybethis is not the best idea, and
(14:55):
he said to himself he's not astupid guy.
Why should I cancel it if I canjust block it by saying that I
will move if they move?
So, and who is the judge?
Whether they did the writings,the Palestinians?
He is the judge, was it working.
Dana Lewis (15:17):
When you look back at the redeployment, when you
look back at the joint patrols,there's a generation you'll see
that have forgotten all of thisright.
Yossi Beilin (15:25):
No, not.
Dana Lewis (15:26):
And even the reporters on the ground now.
I mean, there are a generationof journalists who were never
there.
For any of this Was itinitially working?
Did you think that?
That peace plan?
Not all of it and there wereshortcomings, but you were on
the right track.
Yossi Beilin (15:43):
Yes, this was our feeling in the 90s, but I must
say that very soon after theOslo agreement, in the massacre
in Hebron, when an Israelidoctor, an army officer, killed
29 Palestinian worshippers, Ibegan to have my doubts whether
(16:04):
it would be possible toimplement the agreement.
And violence played a very,very crucial role in our story,
and those who did not want thepartition of the land on both
sides used to say okay, you seenow.
You see, now that you exposethe other side, they don't want
(16:28):
it.
They are the violent andeventually we find ourselves in
the current situation where aninterim agreement of five years,
which had to end by May the 4th99, is still the one behind the
Palestinian parliament, thePalestinian government, the
Palestinian presidency and allthese things.
(16:50):
So they have the tools thatthey got in the interim
agreement, but this is somethingthat cannot prevail for 30
years and shouldn't prevail for30 years and should be replaced
by a permanent agreement andmaybe, maybe, the dark moment in
which we live today will allowus to get back to the peace
(17:13):
talks with another government inIsrael and hopefully with.
I'm trying to convince peoplethat it would be possible to
have an Israeli Palestinianconfederation, the Holy Land
confederation, something whichis offered by a group of
Palestinians led by Dr HibaHusayni and myself and others,
(17:38):
so that the issue of thesettlements will not play a role
, because this is the biggestobstacle for peace right now.
It may not be.
It may not have been theobstacle in 93.
It was a major issue, but itwas not a sine qua non-for peace
.
But now it is, and the way thatwe are suggesting is that all
(18:02):
the Palestinians, the Israeliswho will find themselves on the
other side of the new borderthat we will draw with the
Palestinians meaning in thePalestinian state will be
allowed to remain there asIsraeli citizens and Palestinian
permanent residents, and thesame number of Palestinians will
(18:22):
be allowed, or Palestiniancitizens will be allowed, to
Israel as Israeli permanentresidents.
If you do something like this,this is not the only reason for
the confederation, but I willnot get into details.
But if you do something likethis, you take off the table at
(18:42):
the major impediment for peacefor any Israeli future prime
minister, and if you do that, Ibelieve that we can really use
the black moment in order tomake peace, because usually you
make peace after war.
Dana Lewis (19:04):
Last question to you.
I've heard you say it inanother interview and I was
somewhat surprised, but you werevery firm about it.
Can you just explain reallyquickly that you believe that in
fact all of these people whosay, oh, peace process is
impossible, the agreement willtake?
You know what is the agreementgoing to be.
It'll be years in the making,but in fact you've said, if I
(19:26):
understand you, hawks havecontinued on anyway, despite the
violence, and in fact most ofthe agreement is doable right
now.
Yossi Beilin (19:35):
No question, I mean in 93, if you asked me what
is going to be the solution, Ipersonally would say the
two-state solution.
This was not the official viewof my government, which was very
careful not to refer to thepermanent agreement before time.
But I did, but I could not giveyou all the details.
(20:01):
But since then, in the last 30years, we had very important, I
believe, attempts.
The most important one is theClinton parameters of 2000.
My humble contribution was myagreement with Abu Mazen in 95,
the Berlin Abu Mazen agreementof 95.
Another is the Genevainitiative of 2003.
(20:24):
And you have today a verysignificant material of things
which were agreed upon,including the issue of Jerusalem
and refugees, and you name itIn Geneva.
You have 500 pages of annexes.
(20:45):
So we go to the details of thedetails.
So nobody can say, oh, we neednow 20 years in order to write
an agreement.
No, if you are serious and youare ready to do that, it can
take a year and you can take thegovernment material.
Not everything is stillrelevant as it was years ago.
(21:08):
Adopt it and go for peace.
I mean it will be the two-statesolution on the 67 borders, with
land swaps, whether it will beaccording to the Geneva
initiative or another initiative, but it will be something
between 2% and 4% of the landfor full compensation, and the
(21:29):
refugees will mainly come to thePalestinian new state and not
to Israel.
But there will be some otherarrangements for them and, of
course, compensation financialcompensation and in Jerusalem,
the Temple Mount will be underthe Palestinian sovereignty, but
(21:53):
they will not change the statusquo and the boiling wall will
be under Israel I mean, this isthe big thing and the Arab
neighbors in East Jerusalem willbe under the Palestinian state
and the Jewish neighbors will beunder Israel.
(22:15):
I mean, we know the solution,we really know the details of
the solution and we are speakingabout drafts or agreements
which were really adopted byboth sides not the lunatics, not
the lunatics, not Ben Gvill andnot the lunatics on the other
(22:36):
side, but they were agreed upon.
So it should be the victory ofsanity and we should be much
more careful than before aboutthose who try to kill any
agreement and even to sacrificetheir life in order not to have
(23:00):
the partition.
Yeah.
Dana Lewis (23:03):
Take the voice away from the extreme minority on
both sides that have hijackedthe entire peace process.
You see, Beilin, it's really anhonor to talk to you.
Thank you so much.
Thank you, thank you.
And that's our backstory on theIsraeli-Palestinian conflict
and the war in Gaza.
It will only escalate in thecoming days as Israeli forces
move on the ground into the GazaStrip.
(23:25):
Interruptions are expected inthe West Bank, possibly Lebanon
drawing in the Hezbollah.
So many dangers ahead and, ofcourse, the war in Gaza will be
brutal.
I'm Dana Lewis, thanks forlistening and I'll talk to you
again soon.
Music, music, music, music,music, music, music, music,
(27:04):
music, music, music.
Hi everyone and welcome to another edition of
Backstory.
I'm Dana Lewis.
Israel, under tremendouspressure to call it all off yes,
(00:54):
the most deadly, atrocious,bloody, barbaric attack on
Israeli since the Holocaust byHamas.
But the international outcryover Israel's attack on Gaza to
remove Hamas is unprecedented,too Spiking because of a bomb
attack on a Gaza hospital.
Israel blames Islamic Jihad,palestinians blame Israel.
(01:15):
The pressure on Arab leadersincreasing by the day, by their
own residents, the threat ofthis conflict spreading only
growing.
But Israel's lost over athousand people to a terrorist
organization that is committedto its destruction.
On this backstory, I talked toan Israeli who was one of the
great voices for peace, withactual, practical ideas on how
(01:39):
to make it happen, not to allowthe entire region to be hijacked
by the extremists.
That's what's happening rightnow.
But Yossi Baylan, an architectof the original Oslo peace
accords, believes that themajority of Palestinians and
Israelis deserve their voice tobe heard and if they get a
chance to speak through this war, it will be about a peaceful
(02:02):
solution.
Have a listen, because Baylanis specific about what a peace
treaty can look like.
Yossi Baylan is a formerJustice Minister and Deputy
Minister.
Foreign Minister of Israel.
He participated in the backchannel negotiations that
(02:24):
eventually led to the adoptionof the 1993 Oslo Accords, a
framework agreement to end thePalestinian-Israeli conflict.
Welcome, mr Baylan, thank you.
Thank you for having me, andyou are, if I may personally say
, one of the most measured,sober, reasonable voices from
Israel that, as a journalist,I've had the pleasure to
(02:46):
interview you many times,especially during my time in
Jerusalem.
Can I first of all just getyour reaction to this crisis in
Gaza, especially in light of thefact that President Biden has
just landed?
Arab leaders have canceledmeetings with him because of
this bombing that has occurredat the Gaza hospital, where both
(03:07):
sides are accusing the otherone of being responsible for it.
Yossi Beilin (03:12):
Yeah, of course it is not Israel.
I'm convinced that the optionwhich was showed by the Israeli
Army spokesman about an Islamicjihad-failed rocket which was
launched and did this crazy,crazy damage to innocent people,
(03:37):
that this is the right one.
Israel will never do somethinglike this intentionally, and you
know Israel.
It made many mistakes and itbut nothing like that could be
(03:59):
done.
I mean, all these events happenregretfully.
Civilians are the victims.
This is one of them and you arecrying for the victims, but it
doesn't mean that Israel doessuch things.
Even if there were peoplehiding in the hospital and for
(04:24):
Israel it would be essential toeliminate them there would have
been some warning.
I mean, there is no chance thatout of the blue, an Israeli
rocket will be launched to ahospital.
Dana Lewis (04:42):
This is just, in many ways, starting, isn't it?
Because the ground war hasn'teven taken place.
Israeli forces, which areassembling outside of Gaza, are
not on the move.
We all assume that they will be.
This is only going to get worsein terms of the propaganda that
Hamas and people who supportHamas are using.
(05:05):
It will get worse, will it not?
Yossi Beilin (05:08):
I can imagine, yes , people will be killed,
regretfully, on both sides.
Dana Lewis (05:16):
And why is that a danger to your neighbors?
Whether it be Egypt whichcanceled meetings with President
Biden, or yeah, doing.
Yossi Beilin (05:26):
Dale and.
Dana Lewis (05:26):
Jordan, or I mean, where does it place them in
terms of the pressure that theyare under with their own street
and public?
Yossi Beilin (05:33):
Exactly, it is the public opinion.
They understand that it is notIsrael, including Abu Mazen, I
can assure you.
But he cannot just ignore itand have diplomatic meetings
while something like thishappens and the people in the
street believe that it is theIsraelis who did it.
Dana Lewis (05:53):
Do you believe there's another way to take
Hamas out in Gaza, or is ourboots on the ground the only
solution?
It's the only solution.
Yossi Beilin (06:06):
It's the only solution.
I mean, there is another way todeal with the matter and to say
, okay, we should again findsome Modoso Vivendi with the
Hamas and, despite all thesethings, we will ignore it and
we'll negotiate with them ofcourse indirectly, because they
(06:27):
will never talk to Zionists andthen we will wait for the next
round.
I'm not there.
I'm not there anymore.
This was my view in the past.
I always preferred, of course,as you know, not to have a
violent and counter violentconflict if possible, but this
(06:50):
time, after what they did onSaturday, two weeks ago, enough
is enough.
You cannot go on like nothing.
You have to get rid of thisleadership, to paralyze it and
to replace it by others.
It can be the PalestinianAuthority, which is the best
(07:10):
option, and if not, perhaps aconsortium of Arab countries
like Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Jordanor others, or maybe the UN can
do something there.
As long as it is not Israel,it's fine with me.
Dana Lewis (07:32):
Don't you have to have a solution before you go in
there?
Yossi Beilin (07:36):
How?
What kind of a solution, withwhom?
With the Hamas, you mean?
Dana Lewis (07:42):
No, I mean, don't you have to know what the end
game is before you go in thereto remove Hamas?
Yossi Beilin (07:47):
You must, of course.
Actually, the world goes to warwithout even thinking about the
morning after, and this is whyI am talking about it all the
time In the media, in Israel,abroad.
The morning after is moreimportant than anything else.
If you don't know how to end it, don't enter.
(08:11):
You must know what is your aimat least.
Maybe you will not achieve it,but what is your aim?
Just to get rid of the Hamaspeople is not enough.
Dana Lewis (08:25):
Then you get rid of Hamas.
Do you think that that'sachievable?
And then, do you have anybelief that Abu Mazin's Fata
organization, the PLO, couldcome in there?
And again, because a lot ofpeople don't remember, they were
already there and in fact morethan 50% of Gazans weren't even
(08:47):
born when the Asura Erafats,Fata were on the ground.
But do you think that, inpractical terms, Fata could go
in and fill that vacuum?
A more secular, a more a power,an entity that is willing to at
least recognize the state ofIsrael and have peace
negotiations?
Yossi Beilin (09:06):
Yeah, and much more pragmatic.
I mean, that is, those who tryto portray the Hamas and Fata,
if they are from the same familyand want the same thing, how
those who did not want to havean agreement, like Netanyahu
himself.
He even preferred Hamas for awhile because he thought that if
(09:28):
Hamas is not demanding a state,then it is better for Israel,
which was stupidity.
Stupidity and dangers.
And he allowed them to staythere and to enhance the rule in
Gaza and to get the money fromQatar and whatever, rather than
(09:49):
to try and confront them.
I can understand thatconfronting them is very
difficult because it is costly.
The death toll will be paid, Imean, no question.
But to think that there arebetter counterparts?
Dana Lewis (10:12):
than the PLO.
This is stupidity.
Do you blame Prime MinisterNetanyahu for the intelligence
failure for?
Yossi Beilin (10:21):
blaming him, the intelligence failure.
You know, I blame him, but Imust tell you something about it
.
The main blame is about thepolicy, the ideology, the belief
that you can have peace withother Arab states and to leave
(10:41):
the Palestinian problem for theend.
This is the problem, you know.
The intelligence.
Of course, when something likethis happens, the intelligence
is to be blamed and all thosewho were above the heads of the
intelligence may pay the price.
But this is much more difficultto blame, because what happened
(11:05):
on Saturday, on the 7th ofOctober, is so unexpected.
It is a real black swan out ofthe blue.
There was not even a triggerfor this.
You could say, yeah, theyreacted to something, nothing
(11:25):
whatsoever.
These guys prepared themselvesfor a long while for a crazy
attack, beheading babies.
Who would think about suchthings, such acts?
It's really beyond any horizonof pragmatic people.
(11:46):
Of course, netanyahu will notremain the Prime Minister, I can
assure you, and he will pay theprice.
But this is not the main thing,because nobody could expect
something like that.
Dana Lewis (12:07):
Pardon, who pushed the launch button?
Do you think Iran Like why yousaid it was out of the blue, a
Black Swan event?
There was nothing explainable,there was no trigger.
So why now?
And who do you think initiatedit?
Yossi Beilin (12:25):
I know, I don't.
I tend to think that it isHamas, I mean, but maybe they
were directed by Iran.
In my view, this is almostsecondary to the main thing that
we have to make peace with thePLO.
They are our partners and withthem I believe that we can solve
(12:47):
the Palestinian issue by having, and the Israeli problems by
having, a two-state solution.
The biggest blame that Iattribute to Netanyahu is that
he did, since he did not want topartition the land and didn't
(13:07):
understand that, if he doesn'tpartition the land, there will
be no Jewish state, because theminority of Jews will, God
forbid, control a majority ofPalestinians.
Because he did not want to takethis needed decision, he was
ready to bypass it by otherideas, not understanding what
(13:31):
he's doing.
This is, I believe, a muchbigger accusation than saying
that he is in charge of the factthat the intelligence was not
aware of what was prepared underour laws.
Dana Lewis (13:47):
You were in the government when Yitzhak Rabin,
the Prime Minister, wasassassinated.
You, shimon Peres, rabinhimself, were saying at the time
over and over again if we don'tdo this now, the state of
Israel will eventually bethreatened that we can't go on
(14:11):
fighting in the occupation, andthat's why the Oslo Accords were
in many ways, supported by theIsraeli public at the time and
Netanyahu, who said he would notturn back the peace process.
I mean, if there was anybody atthe top of the pyramid who did
that, it was Netanyahu, was itnot?
Yossi Beilin (14:33):
Undoubtedly he is.
The Israeli should be blamedfor actually swathing the Oslo
Agreement by saying I'll do itmy way.
If you remember, as the head ofthe opposition, he promised to
cancel the agreement.
Then, when he became PrimeMinister, he understood that
this is impossible, or maybethis is not the best idea, and
(14:55):
he said to himself he's not astupid guy.
Why should I cancel it if I canjust block it by saying that I
will move if they move?
So, and who is the judge?
Whether they did the writings,the Palestinians?
He is the judge, was it working.
Dana Lewis (15:17):
When you look back at the redeployment, when you
look back at the joint patrols,there's a generation you'll see
that have forgotten all of thisright.
Yossi Beilin (15:25):
No, not.
Dana Lewis (15:26):
And even the reporters on the ground now.
I mean, there are a generationof journalists who were never
there.
For any of this Was itinitially working?
Did you think that?
That peace plan?
Not all of it and there wereshortcomings, but you were on
the right track.
Yossi Beilin (15:43):
Yes, this was our feeling in the 90s, but I must
say that very soon after theOslo agreement, in the massacre
in Hebron, when an Israelidoctor, an army officer, killed
29 Palestinian worshippers, Ibegan to have my doubts whether
(16:04):
it would be possible toimplement the agreement.
And violence played a very,very crucial role in our story,
and those who did not want thepartition of the land on both
sides used to say okay, you seenow.
You see, now that you exposethe other side, they don't want
(16:28):
it.
They are the violent andeventually we find ourselves in
the current situation where aninterim agreement of five years,
which had to end by May the 4th99, is still the one behind the
Palestinian parliament, thePalestinian government, the
Palestinian presidency and allthese things.
(16:50):
So they have the tools thatthey got in the interim
agreement, but this is somethingthat cannot prevail for 30
years and shouldn't prevail for30 years and should be replaced
by a permanent agreement andmaybe, maybe, the dark moment in
which we live today will allowus to get back to the peace
(17:13):
talks with another government inIsrael and hopefully with.
I'm trying to convince peoplethat it would be possible to
have an Israeli Palestinianconfederation, the Holy Land
confederation, something whichis offered by a group of
Palestinians led by Dr HibaHusayni and myself and others,
(17:38):
so that the issue of thesettlements will not play a role
, because this is the biggestobstacle for peace right now.
It may not be.
It may not have been theobstacle in 93.
It was a major issue, but itwas not a sine qua non-for peace
.
But now it is, and the way thatwe are suggesting is that all
(18:02):
the Palestinians, the Israeliswho will find themselves on the
other side of the new borderthat we will draw with the
Palestinians meaning in thePalestinian state will be
allowed to remain there asIsraeli citizens and Palestinian
permanent residents, and thesame number of Palestinians will
(18:22):
be allowed, or Palestiniancitizens will be allowed, to
Israel as Israeli permanentresidents.
If you do something like this,this is not the only reason for
the confederation, but I willnot get into details.
But if you do something likethis, you take off the table at
(18:42):
the major impediment for peacefor any Israeli future prime
minister, and if you do that, Ibelieve that we can really use
the black moment in order tomake peace, because usually you
make peace after war.
Dana Lewis (19:04):
Last question to you.
I've heard you say it inanother interview and I was
somewhat surprised, but you werevery firm about it.
Can you just explain reallyquickly that you believe that in
fact all of these people whosay, oh, peace process is
impossible, the agreement willtake?
You know what is the agreementgoing to be.
It'll be years in the making,but in fact you've said, if I
(19:26):
understand you, hawks havecontinued on anyway, despite the
violence, and in fact most ofthe agreement is doable right
now.
Yossi Beilin (19:35):
No question, I mean in 93, if you asked me what
is going to be the solution, Ipersonally would say the
two-state solution.
This was not the official viewof my government, which was very
careful not to refer to thepermanent agreement before time.
But I did, but I could not giveyou all the details.
(20:01):
But since then, in the last 30years, we had very important, I
believe, attempts.
The most important one is theClinton parameters of 2000.
My humble contribution was myagreement with Abu Mazen in 95,
the Berlin Abu Mazen agreementof 95.
Another is the Genevainitiative of 2003.
(20:24):
And you have today a verysignificant material of things
which were agreed upon,including the issue of Jerusalem
and refugees, and you name itIn Geneva.
You have 500 pages of annexes.
(20:45):
So we go to the details of thedetails.
So nobody can say, oh, we neednow 20 years in order to write
an agreement.
No, if you are serious and youare ready to do that, it can
take a year and you can take thegovernment material.
Not everything is stillrelevant as it was years ago.
(21:08):
Adopt it and go for peace.
I mean it will be the two-statesolution on the 67 borders, with
land swaps, whether it will beaccording to the Geneva
initiative or another initiative, but it will be something
between 2% and 4% of the landfor full compensation, and the
(21:29):
refugees will mainly come to thePalestinian new state and not
to Israel.
But there will be some otherarrangements for them and, of
course, compensation financialcompensation and in Jerusalem,
the Temple Mount will be underthe Palestinian sovereignty, but
(21:53):
they will not change the statusquo and the boiling wall will
be under Israel I mean, this isthe big thing and the Arab
neighbors in East Jerusalem willbe under the Palestinian state
and the Jewish neighbors will beunder Israel.
(22:15):
I mean, we know the solution,we really know the details of
the solution and we are speakingabout drafts or agreements
which were really adopted byboth sides not the lunatics, not
the lunatics, not Ben Gvill andnot the lunatics on the other
(22:36):
side, but they were agreed upon.
So it should be the victory ofsanity and we should be much
more careful than before aboutthose who try to kill any
agreement and even to sacrificetheir life in order not to have
(23:00):
the partition.
Yeah.
Dana Lewis (23:03):
Take the voice away from the extreme minority on
both sides that have hijackedthe entire peace process.
You see, Beilin, it's really anhonor to talk to you.
Thank you so much.
Thank you, thank you.
And that's our backstory on theIsraeli-Palestinian conflict
and the war in Gaza.
It will only escalate in thecoming days as Israeli forces
move on the ground into the GazaStrip.
(23:25):
Interruptions are expected inthe West Bank, possibly Lebanon
drawing in the Hezbollah.
So many dangers ahead and, ofcourse, the war in Gaza will be
brutal.
I'm Dana Lewis, thanks forlistening and I'll talk to you
again soon.
Music, music, music, music,music, music, music, music,
(27:04):
music, music, music.
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