April 14, 2024 • 40 mins
Hello Backstory fans! Welcome to the Season 11 finale. Join us as we share our reflections and excitement as we close out the season and commemorate the 50th anniversary of the classic TV series, Little House on the Prairie. What sets this episode apart is none other than the special guest, Karen Grassle, popularly known as Ma Ingalls. We look deep into her journey in the industry and her amazing contributions to the prairie's endless tales, among her other pursuits. The discussion touches on the series' unforgettable final episode – a classic that still sparks curiosity decades later, and also peels back the layers of Karen's path – from her love for performing to her interest in writing and storytelling. As we dig into her amazing career, Karen shares her humble persona, creative drive, and the process of writing her memoir. Her resilience, curiosity, and love of lifelong learning give you a profound insight into her life in and beyond the screen.
This episode also serves as a big thank you to our dedicated listeners who have supported us in creating a platform showcasing the stories behind memorable TV series, actors and actresses, amazing musicians, authors, with the occasional random crazy episode by us, and is a perfect endcap to a great Season 11.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Hey everybody, it's Kat, and I want to welcome you to this episode of Backstory Sessions.
I'm joined today by my co-host, Matt. Hey, Matt. Hey, Kat. Hey, everyone. How are you?
Well, here we are again at the end of a season. Yep, end of season 11.
(00:20):
It's really, it seems like it only just began in a way.
Yeah, these past few months have gone really fast.
They really have and you know
i i think we can tie that probably into today's
guest because you know little house on
the prairie is celebrating 50 years and
(00:41):
that does not in my mind seem at
all possible that it could be that long yeah
it was what 50 years since it came out right yes and i you know i think it lasted
nine seasons so you know that's a that's a big part of your childhood really
if you think about it yeah i mean if you watched it religiously sure.
(01:05):
Yeah so you know i i
mean time is just like that isn't it it's i
don't know i mean in some ways it
seems like another lifetime that
i watch little house on the prairie you know like now
i watched it as an adult in the reruns and
things like that but you know it just
(01:28):
um then other times it's like you
know wow that can't be 50 years i
mean 50 years yeah it's like uh
when you see those things like this song
turns 30 years old this you know it's
like what yeah so
you know and then you turn to the oldie station and
(01:51):
yes yes the classic yeah i
know so it's just amazing but
i mean this has been a great season we've got
to revisit happy day yep and
now little house on the prairie which you
know we have had guests from little house on the prairie before
(02:11):
but there's just something special about having ma angles and also you know
in the 50th anniversary yeah yeah it's pretty cool it's uh kind of interesting
you know we said this we said this for like when we talked to artemis.
It's sort of surreal talking to people that you, you know, kind of knew growing up, you know.
(02:38):
Yeah. And it's, I don't know.
I never, ever, when we started the podcast, thought that we would be,
you know, just interviewing pieces of history, really.
I mean, these are iconic TV shows and actors, musicians as well,
we've had that are just...
(03:00):
You know, they're a part of history of American entertainment. Yep, it is pretty cool.
Yeah. So, I mean, it would be great because we're, you know,
as we said, this is the end of season 11.
We're coming back in a month on Mother's Day.
So, this would have been a great coming back on Mother's Day episode, too.
(03:24):
Because, you know, I think Carolyn Ingalls was, you know, she was like the epitome
of the mom that you would want to have, you know, on Little House.
She was just always so caring and understanding and calm.
You know, the whole like prairie could be burning up and blowing away or the
(03:49):
savages coming or, you know, whatever, you know, bears.
Bears or i mean just everything that she
had to encounter and she just like i got
this yeah yeah she was uh definitely
uh a role model i would guess so
i'll be curious you know like where does she where does she find where did she
(04:11):
find that strength for the character because definitely if i saw a bear coming
or any of the things she encountered that would be the end of me so.
I would not cut out for the prairie days let's just say that yeah i don't know
(04:33):
how i would fare either i mean i'd miss the internet.
You'd miss more than that you'd be out chopping wood yeah yeah,
And, you know, like how you don't like winter. And, I mean, look at the winters
they had. Yeah, that's true. I mean.
You have to go out to use the bathroom.
(04:54):
Yeah, okay. Well, you're certainly not making it easy to like the olden days.
No, but, you know, then there's like the quilt. Like, I don't know.
Quilts feel so good, you know, of the, like, snuggly and knowing it was a handmade quilt.
(05:14):
And, you know, they had the fireplace and Paul played the fiddle and, you know.
Yeah, it was a lot of work for sure. Yeah.
Hey, maybe, you know, you can play the guitar. So close enough.
But we, you know, besides the stuff that has gone on on the podcast,
(05:38):
we've both been extremely busy.
And so it's you know it's kind
of like our prairie days i guess yes and
uh yeah the last four well i guess the last four months have been extremely
busy as you said yes very very busy and you know when we come back we'll have
(06:01):
news about the pitch and if tri-county mystery meets his,
you know successful in uh pulling out
one of the first second or third places yeah
yeah that's coming up in a couple weeks and uh
you have a new show uh that's going to be opening tomorrow actually be over
(06:23):
when we come back but the next two weeks new two weekends it is you know going
Going to be in Barberville,
Kentucky, and then Corbin, Kentucky at the train station.
So busy times, busy times. The week after that is the pitch.
And, you know, then we just have a little chance to, like, have a breather and get back to recording.
(06:52):
Yeah, back to recording, back to the next show.
We'll be rehearsing, you know, in May. May, so... Oh, did you write another
one, or is that... So we are writing, you know, because we are always having
to stay ahead of the game.
So by the end of April, the new script will be written. We'll be having auditions.
(07:16):
Then May will be spent getting that together. And June will be performance dates again.
Oh, what's the kind of thing? And also, this time, for the first time ever,
we're having a full-length drama.
Really in july oh yeah yeah boxes yeah boxes so i mean tri-county mystery meets is busy,
(07:41):
what's the what's the next play gonna be dana so
we want to keep that surprise for right now
until we announce that for the auditions but
you know it will be a comedy and it's gonna be
a lot lot of fun because we we try to make summer
you know super fun and the shows
so they're all
(08:03):
fun in their own way but we we kind of make it like summer fun well that's cool
so i mean as far as backstory goes by the time we return we should have some
you know some new stuff going on we'll We'll have the website up and running, finally.
Yes. That'll be interesting. And maybe some merchandise available,
(08:27):
T-shirts and that sort of thing, for those who are interested in that.
And some new theme music, I think, will be ready by then.
It's going to be really cool. I look forward to 12.
It's been wonderful, the 11 that we've been able to do. We had great memories,
great guests, and, you know, we still like each other.
(08:56):
That's kind of key.
Even if you are exasperating you
know we make it so yeah yeah
so this this episode is karen grassley
is that yeah how you say your last name yeah and
we are excited to have
(09:18):
her yeah it's gonna be a good episode
for sure well uh you
know let's see what ma ingles has to
tell us and also you know she has
done so many other things and little house on the prairie
and certainly that was a huge career
break i guess but you
(09:39):
know she's done a lot of things and we're going to talk to her about those
and she has a book out and you know just
hear this fascinating story yep should
be should be good as i said before we go
i just wanted to thank the listeners for a
great season you know you're helping us
grow and we really appreciate your continued support
(10:02):
and you know we look forward to starting season
12 on mother's day maybe we'll do something
special for that i don't know we should yeah yeah we'll see i have to think
of something so and also ghana we have to like give another shout out because
they have moved into the a tie for the number two position.
(10:26):
No, that's true. Yeah. Yeah. So just so, just as a, you know,
a little backstory for that.
We get a list of countries where the podcast is heard.
And I think there's like typically like 40 something countries that,
uh, you know, people listen to us.
(10:47):
And so obviously the U S is number one.
And number two is typically been like the UK.
And then from there, what's that?
And sometimes Australia would. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah, so for some reason, we don't know why,
(11:08):
but Ghana has been hovering around number three or number four,
and usually it changes a little bit every month, but this month they're tied
for second with England, so we'll see how that goes.
We may be in second now. Go to Ghana, you know, like tell all your friends. Right, yeah. Yeah.
(11:30):
So anyway, thank you for all, you know, for all the people who listen to us.
You know, we do this for you and, you know, we started it as shameless self-promotion,
but I've certainly evolved into something a lot more.
And, you know, we appreciate the opportunity to entertain you and,
(11:51):
you know, tell you some of the backstories of people that you know,
and even those that you don't know. So thank you.
Yeah and thank you cat i mean i couldn't do this without you and you know you
couldn't do it without me either so i knew i was gonna say am i dying and then
(12:12):
when you said that i'm like okay now i'm good.
Anyway, we'll see you on Mother's Day, and let's talk to Karen and get the backstory
of what she's up to. Great. Sounds great.
Karen, I want to welcome you to Backstory Sessions.
(12:32):
It is so exciting and an honor to have you as our guest today.
Thank you so much. But, well, you know, I have been dying to ask someone this,
and you are the first Karen that we have ever had as a guest.
So I just, I mean, I'm curious, you know, does the name Karen, has that changed?
(12:55):
You know, now that people use it sort of as a, you're being a Karen,
like this, you know, do you laugh about that or find it interesting or?
Well, at first I didn't know what they meant.
And then I read some descriptions of some women who would fit my description, white,
(13:20):
blonde, privileged, behaving in ways that are really embarrassing in public places.
And I was given to understand that that's Karen behavior. So, I think...
What happened is that the name became very popular,
(13:40):
and the people who are of the description I just made behaved badly,
and then it became a thing.
So as far as I'm concerned, I don't even think about the pejorative of the name.
(14:01):
I love my name, and I think the pejorative sense of it will pass and move on
to something else, you know?
Yeah, maybe it'll be like, you know, Kathy or another name in the future.
Well, this is 50 years since The Little House on the Prairie,
(14:21):
and I guess I can't believe it's been 50 years.
What does this seem like to you, time-wise? Oh, it definitely seems like 50 years to me.
You know, I've done a lot of living since the first airing of Little House on the Prairie.
(14:44):
So, yeah, it's a long time ago for me, definitely. Definitely.
So the ending, let's talk about that.
And, you know, I guess that was somewhat controversial at the time to blow up the town.
Did you know that was going to be the ending? Like how much in advance did you
(15:09):
know that was the way the show would end?
Well, we got the script, you know, so of course we knew.
As soon as we were sent the script and invited to do it.
And for me, I thought, oh, it's such a shame to blow up all those memories.
(15:30):
But that was the decision that Mike made.
Did he ever share, like, why that he felt that was the direction it should go?
No. Yes. You know, I guess it's, I don't know, it's just one of those memorable
endings to shows. And I was just curious how you thought about that being. Well, we were sad.
(15:55):
We were sad because it put such a final cap on the show,
whereas the Waltons, for example, could go on doing the occasional special for
Christmas or some other special event,
and there would be a reason for the cast to come back together.
(16:20):
Other but that was clearly not going to happen
for a little house so that was sad
you know because it was really goodbye and and we were all standing there crying
oh i can't imagine i'm sure the audience of course you know as we watched it
(16:40):
who did not really expect that to be the outcome come,
I'm sure, a lot of tears there as well.
Do you hear, I'm sure you've heard from the fans over the years.
Do they share your sentiment that it was just such a sad thing to see?
(17:00):
Well, everybody doesn't understand why. Everybody wants to know why.
And I don't know the answer to that in the script. But,
The town would rather blow itself up than let somebody else have it.
And so I think that says something about Mike's sense of possession of that
(17:26):
set and those buildings.
Well, so recently, was it all of it or a part of it was reconstructed?
At least your home, I think. Well, it was painted on huge murals,
the little house, the barn, and some of the town buildings.
(17:49):
And then they were stretched and hung up in the places where they existed on
the ranch in the old days.
And so it looked very real from a distance.
Also what was done were
reconstructions of the interiors
(18:12):
of the little house and the mercantile and
those were shown in the community
center in Simi Valley in the
town for the fans to be
able to go and see what they looked
like in scale you know which they were very true to scale So that was quite
(18:35):
a nice feature of this celebration that Simi Valley Chamber and a number of
members of the cast of Little House put on.
And was that just like last month or very recently, I think?
Yeah, that was about three weeks ago. go. Wow.
(18:55):
How did that feel like walking into there? I mean, was it like walking back in time in a way?
Well, I didn't find it emotional.
I found it well done.
But I think Good Morning America was filming us and I think they thought we
(19:22):
were going to collapse and cry and carry on when we saw it.
But really, we just saw it and said, oh, boy, they really did a good job and,
looked around and didn't know what to say, didn't have any lines.
Have to write your own. You know.
(19:46):
Yeah. So, yeah. Was there an object that caught your eye more so than anything else?
Well, yes, there was. Because you might remember from the show, on the mantle,
there was the Little Shepherdess ceramic that Carolyn carried with her on all
(20:10):
of their moves and always would put up on the mantle.
And the artist who had painted the beautiful murals also created out of clay
and fired and painted a little shepherd, a little shepherdess.
(20:31):
So I was very surprised to see her.
Not, you know, she didn't look exactly the same, but she was the same idea.
And I must say that was one thing that, If I had been asked if I would like
to have something from the show, I might have asked for the shepherdess or my black boots.
(20:56):
Yeah. Yeah. That was going to be one of my questions if you did ask to take
something when the show ended.
But that's a lot of detail, you know. I mean, so, wow, they really did sound
like do a very nice job with.
Oh, yeah. They did a beautiful job. There's a man named Eric Caron who lives
(21:18):
in Canada who does miniatures of all the little house buildings.
They are just exquisite.
And they asked him to use his skill in measurement and construction to help
build these big facsimiles.
(21:41):
So he did, and he enjoyed it very much.
Well, this is just really great. And well, do you have you stayed in touch with
the family or, you know, the children over the years?
Well, what happened was that after, I don't know, maybe 15,
(22:05):
20 years, we began to be invited to reunions at, I think the first one was in
Sonora, where we had shot the pilot.
And then fans would be invited to come and we would do panel discussions and
(22:27):
answer questions and sign autographs and things like that.
And that gave us an opportunity to connect with each other,
for me to connect with the now adults who had been the children and to learn
about their lives and also to hear more about what their experience had been at the time,
(22:54):
but that they would not have been able to talk about at the time. Sure.
Well, let's talk about your backstory, like go back to when you were a child.
Did you always want to be an actress?
Oh, probably, but I didn't know it. so I loved dancing I took lessons and my
(23:20):
teacher was very gifted and we did a lot of performing,
I did performances in Sunday school both singing and being in little plays with a moral to them,
at home I had one of those felt boards that you could put figures on and make
(23:42):
up stories so I I would do that.
I was just very expressive, you know.
I would organize the kids into various kinds of skits.
You be the father, you be the mother. This is the setup of the situation.
Stuff like that. And you were a director, too, it sounds like. Yeah, I was very bossy.
(24:11):
Well how did it happen that you decided this was going to be your career well
i i had done plays all through middle school or rather junior high we called
it and through high school but when i I got to college,
the school I had chosen was famous for its theater department,
(24:36):
but they had a rule that first semester freshmen could not be in plays.
So I was frustrated and I,
got busy on the school paper instead. But when I got to Berkeley,
I said, okay, now I'm really going to bear down and study here.
(24:56):
And I'm going to see if I can get good grades and going to stay away from that
theater department over there by the, yeah, it's very close to the English department
where a lot of my classes are.
And they'd have a poster saying auditions. And I'd walk by those posters and
(25:16):
I'd say, I'm not going there. I'm going to the library and study.
And I managed that for probably two semesters.
And then I did a play.
A friend of mine called me up and read the last scene of Look Back in Anger,
(25:41):
which was a very hot play at the time.
Was part of the angry generation in england
and i heard this
scene read and the next day i went
to the auditions and won the lead female part and that that was basically all
she wrote you know after that i went to pasadena house in the summer and at
(26:06):
the end of that course i called my parents parents collect,
of course, because we didn't all have phones in those days where we could talk forever long distance.
Right. And said, I'm not going back to school. I have to be an actress.
And what did they? My mother was like, this was the death knell.
(26:31):
You know, she'd been hoping against hope against this. Right.
So she said, now, Karen, we'll discuss it when we come down to see your play.
We're not going to discuss this on the phone. I said, no, no,
no, no. You always said you wanted me to be happy.
Well, this is what makes me happy.
(26:53):
So they saw that I was just honor bound to do this.
And then they gave me wonderful support.
They were great. They were great.
So how do you get from there to Little House? What made you audition for that show?
Well, many years, you know. I started in a theater in San Francisco.
(27:18):
I went back and got my degree at Cal.
I had a Fulbright to Lambda in London.
I did repertory theater, stock theater, Broadway.
Went back to England, taught. Did Shakespeare there.
And then I was in Los Angeles to do an independent movie.
(27:41):
The movie fell through and I was stranded. I didn't have any more money.
I had spent all my savings on this Shakespeare company.
And I was ready to quit the business. And I got the call to go and see about this new series.
Wow. That title sounds so saccharine. God, I don't think I'll like this.
(28:08):
And of course, it was my big break.
Did you think ever Athena in the early stages that it was going to become as iconic as it has?
No, never dreamed of it. Never, never.
Uh-uh. Were you like the character or was it something that was very different from you?
(28:34):
Oh, totally different, but I have those things within me, and I'm an actress, so...
I drew very much on my own mother for the characterization.
Well, that must have pleased her, I would think, you know.
That's really an honor, I think, when you have that model, I guess, to pull from.
(29:01):
Yeah, she was an outstanding person. and
well so you know
in talking about how you you know
would write the plays and put direct the
people you know the children there must have been a writer in you as well because
now you've gone on to write your own memoir yes well I had when I was a sophomore
(29:26):
in college I was in a writing seminar,
and I was feeling torn between the writing and the acting.
But then when I got into that play, the die was cast.
It was so clear that this was where I really felt at home.
(29:48):
But over the years, I co-wrote that movie for NBC, Battered,
about domestic violence and always kept journals.
And I tried writing various plays and things like that over the years.
When you're not acting, then you need an outlet for your creative energy.
(30:11):
So I would write. and that held up well for me when it came time to write the
memoir because I had so much in my memory from having written so much down. Sure.
Well, how did you decide of all the things what you're going to include?
(30:37):
Oh, that's a good question. Well, I didn't decide at first.
I just started writing, writing, writing, memory after memory after memory as
they popped up into my mind.
And I joined a class in memoir writing and began to read other people's work
(31:00):
and learn what is a memoir.
And then I co-founded a writing group and we wrote memoir together and helped
each other improve our work. and some of us took class after class with this
one teacher we really liked.
And in fact, we are still meeting. We have been meeting for 14 years.
(31:27):
Isn't that something? Yeah, three of us have published, no, four of us have published books.
None of us were writers when we started.
So it's a serious little group there.
And after writing and writing and writing, a friend of mine in the group said
(31:47):
to me, Karen, do you know what your themes are?
And I said, no, I have no idea.
I'm hoping to find out what they are. You know, I'm just writing, writing, writing.
And gradually themes began to emerge and I began to understand what the book was about.
(32:10):
And it helped a
lot because once you know where you're
going then it's easier to decide
what helps get you there and what you
have to you know let go of so was
it hard for you to be vulnerable and share like intimate details of your you
(32:36):
know of your life yes it was very hard And I think that's one reason it took so long to write it,
was because I had to keep peeling the layers to reveal more,
to be more vulnerable.
(32:56):
But once it was out there, you know, it was like, oh, okay, now it's all out there.
People can make of it whatever they make of it. But, you know, it was kind of a relief.
I was going to ask if it maybe felt that way, like once you're finally rid of
(33:20):
it, you know, once you put it out, then you're free of it, I guess, in some ways.
It's true. It's true. And plus, the very fact of writing,
we all found very, very healing in confronting these places in our pasts that
you don't bring up at the dinner parties, you know.
(33:44):
But that we would share with each other in our writing. Matt, what do you think?
So I wanted to go back to Little House for a sec, just for one second.
So you grew up in California and graduated from Ventura High School, I see.
(34:04):
And I was just wondering, how do you think you would fare as a pioneer woman?
Oh, I would have died young.
No seriously those women
were tough they were tough you know
i mean i think it
(34:25):
was when i was around uh maybe 14
15 i had a terrible case of
strep throat well in those days
it would have killed you yeah that's true no antibiotics
and you know those
buck boards those are not very comfortable so as
(34:46):
you go bouncing bouncing across the land
unimproved land oh my
god i was like as we would
do that hal burton was mike's stand-in
and stuntman and he would drive that that
upboard and oh my god i would bounce bounce and
(35:07):
i would think oh those ladies were so tough and and
it's because they were tough they could actually settle the country yeah yeah
yeah i was just curious about what you know about that and then uh the other
thing i saw is that you So you graduated from Berkeley with a degree in English and drama,
(35:31):
and you have that in common with Kat, because she used to be an English teacher
and drama teacher. Oh, is that right?
That's true. Yeah, 20 years or 25 years, isn't it? Well, that's wonderful.
An English teacher is really something. something.
(35:53):
Hey, I really do feel that way.
Yay. And then the other thing is I saw you lived in Louisville and Kentucky for a while.
Yes, you know, there's a very, very well-known theater there called Actors Theater
of Louisville. It has an international reputation.
Where are you guys, actually?
(36:14):
I am in Kentucky, and Matt's in Pennsylvania.
Oh, I see. So you know about Actors Theater if you're in Kentucky.
Yes. Yeah, so I went there to work at Actors Theater while my child was still in grammar school.
And was able to live in an
(36:37):
ordinary house in an ordinary neighborhood
and drive to work
at the theater and have my child
in school and have almost like
a normal life for an actor this
is something very difficult to achieve you know
(36:57):
yeah so it was it
was very attractive to me to go there and
have that opportunity how long were
you there six years cool and
then what was the other thing oh so
what what is next for you i mean we're winding down
on time so uh i just i don't know matt
(37:20):
you know this is an actor's life we
never know what's next are you
still are you still auditioning or well when
anybody will ask me or or sometimes i just get an offer to do like an independent
(37:40):
movie i have one that's available on amazon called not to forget get in which I play an elderly,
demented lady with a lot of money.
And that was a really fun character.
So, no, I don't know what's next. I was at home about two years ago, and.
(38:08):
Twiddling my thumbs and got a phone call from my agent saying,
they want you to come to Canada and do on Golden Pond.
But you'll have to be there next week. I was like, excuse me?
Well, it turned out that Michael Learned
(38:29):
had been booked to do this
play with this company actually before
the the pandemic and they'd been waiting
for the pandemic to pass so that
they could do this production and they were going
into rehearsal next week so she was
home packing to fly to canada and she fell and broke her wrist so she had to
(38:55):
call them and say i can't come she was broken hearted and so they called me
and i was thrilled of course i felt bad for michael but not that bad.
All right cat we got time for one more question from you,
(39:16):
i i guess you know i i just wonder like as you look back over all the things
that you've done in life you know do you do you see the the themes like you
talked about that for your memoir are,
what are the themes you see of your life?
Well, I really think I had a commitment
(39:36):
to learning and to
knowing myself and uncovering
what was hidden in the
unconscious and in my
secrets and becoming a more
conscious human being so that
I could be a part of the solution rather
(39:59):
than a part of the problem well it
is such an honor that we got to speak
with you today you know thank you for sharing these stories and your thoughts
about the long career that you have and you know just uh like the the human
(40:19):
side for us thank you thank Thank you so much for inviting me.
I've really enjoyed talking with the two of you.
Come back anytime and see us. We really appreciate you coming back. Thank you.
Hey everybody, it's Kat, and I want to welcome you to this episode of Backstory Sessions.
I'm joined today by my co-host, Matt. Hey, Matt. Hey, Kat. Hey, everyone. How are you?
Well, here we are again at the end of a season. Yep, end of season 11.
(00:20):
It's really, it seems like it only just began in a way.
Yeah, these past few months have gone really fast.
They really have and you know
i i think we can tie that probably into today's
guest because you know little house on
the prairie is celebrating 50 years and
(00:41):
that does not in my mind seem at
all possible that it could be that long yeah
it was what 50 years since it came out right yes and i you know i think it lasted
nine seasons so you know that's a that's a big part of your childhood really
if you think about it yeah i mean if you watched it religiously sure.
(01:05):
Yeah so you know i i
mean time is just like that isn't it it's i
don't know i mean in some ways it
seems like another lifetime that
i watch little house on the prairie you know like now
i watched it as an adult in the reruns and
things like that but you know it just
(01:28):
um then other times it's like you
know wow that can't be 50 years i
mean 50 years yeah it's like uh
when you see those things like this song
turns 30 years old this you know it's
like what yeah so
you know and then you turn to the oldie station and
(01:51):
yes yes the classic yeah i
know so it's just amazing but
i mean this has been a great season we've got
to revisit happy day yep and
now little house on the prairie which you
know we have had guests from little house on the prairie before
(02:11):
but there's just something special about having ma angles and also you know
in the 50th anniversary yeah yeah it's pretty cool it's uh kind of interesting
you know we said this we said this for like when we talked to artemis.
It's sort of surreal talking to people that you, you know, kind of knew growing up, you know.
(02:38):
Yeah. And it's, I don't know.
I never, ever, when we started the podcast, thought that we would be,
you know, just interviewing pieces of history, really.
I mean, these are iconic TV shows and actors, musicians as well,
we've had that are just...
(03:00):
You know, they're a part of history of American entertainment. Yep, it is pretty cool.
Yeah. So, I mean, it would be great because we're, you know,
as we said, this is the end of season 11.
We're coming back in a month on Mother's Day.
So, this would have been a great coming back on Mother's Day episode, too.
(03:24):
Because, you know, I think Carolyn Ingalls was, you know, she was like the epitome
of the mom that you would want to have, you know, on Little House.
She was just always so caring and understanding and calm.
You know, the whole like prairie could be burning up and blowing away or the
(03:49):
savages coming or, you know, whatever, you know, bears.
Bears or i mean just everything that she
had to encounter and she just like i got
this yeah yeah she was uh definitely
uh a role model i would guess so
i'll be curious you know like where does she where does she find where did she
(04:11):
find that strength for the character because definitely if i saw a bear coming
or any of the things she encountered that would be the end of me so.
I would not cut out for the prairie days let's just say that yeah i don't know
(04:33):
how i would fare either i mean i'd miss the internet.
You'd miss more than that you'd be out chopping wood yeah yeah,
And, you know, like how you don't like winter. And, I mean, look at the winters
they had. Yeah, that's true. I mean.
You have to go out to use the bathroom.
(04:54):
Yeah, okay. Well, you're certainly not making it easy to like the olden days.
No, but, you know, then there's like the quilt. Like, I don't know.
Quilts feel so good, you know, of the, like, snuggly and knowing it was a handmade quilt.
(05:14):
And, you know, they had the fireplace and Paul played the fiddle and, you know.
Yeah, it was a lot of work for sure. Yeah.
Hey, maybe, you know, you can play the guitar. So close enough.
But we, you know, besides the stuff that has gone on on the podcast,
(05:38):
we've both been extremely busy.
And so it's you know it's kind
of like our prairie days i guess yes and
uh yeah the last four well i guess the last four months have been extremely
busy as you said yes very very busy and you know when we come back we'll have
(06:01):
news about the pitch and if tri-county mystery meets his,
you know successful in uh pulling out
one of the first second or third places yeah
yeah that's coming up in a couple weeks and uh
you have a new show uh that's going to be opening tomorrow actually be over
(06:23):
when we come back but the next two weeks new two weekends it is you know going
Going to be in Barberville,
Kentucky, and then Corbin, Kentucky at the train station.
So busy times, busy times. The week after that is the pitch.
And, you know, then we just have a little chance to, like, have a breather and get back to recording.
(06:52):
Yeah, back to recording, back to the next show.
We'll be rehearsing, you know, in May. May, so... Oh, did you write another
one, or is that... So we are writing, you know, because we are always having
to stay ahead of the game.
So by the end of April, the new script will be written. We'll be having auditions.
(07:16):
Then May will be spent getting that together. And June will be performance dates again.
Oh, what's the kind of thing? And also, this time, for the first time ever,
we're having a full-length drama.
Really in july oh yeah yeah boxes yeah boxes so i mean tri-county mystery meets is busy,
(07:41):
what's the what's the next play gonna be dana so
we want to keep that surprise for right now
until we announce that for the auditions but
you know it will be a comedy and it's gonna be
a lot lot of fun because we we try to make summer
you know super fun and the shows
so they're all
(08:03):
fun in their own way but we we kind of make it like summer fun well that's cool
so i mean as far as backstory goes by the time we return we should have some
you know some new stuff going on we'll We'll have the website up and running, finally.
Yes. That'll be interesting. And maybe some merchandise available,
(08:27):
T-shirts and that sort of thing, for those who are interested in that.
And some new theme music, I think, will be ready by then.
It's going to be really cool. I look forward to 12.
It's been wonderful, the 11 that we've been able to do. We had great memories,
great guests, and, you know, we still like each other.
(08:56):
That's kind of key.
Even if you are exasperating you
know we make it so yeah yeah
so this this episode is karen grassley
is that yeah how you say your last name yeah and
we are excited to have
(09:18):
her yeah it's gonna be a good episode
for sure well uh you
know let's see what ma ingles has to
tell us and also you know she has
done so many other things and little house on the prairie
and certainly that was a huge career
break i guess but you
(09:39):
know she's done a lot of things and we're going to talk to her about those
and she has a book out and you know just
hear this fascinating story yep should
be should be good as i said before we go
i just wanted to thank the listeners for a
great season you know you're helping us
grow and we really appreciate your continued support
(10:02):
and you know we look forward to starting season
12 on mother's day maybe we'll do something
special for that i don't know we should yeah yeah we'll see i have to think
of something so and also ghana we have to like give another shout out because
they have moved into the a tie for the number two position.
(10:26):
No, that's true. Yeah. Yeah. So just so, just as a, you know,
a little backstory for that.
We get a list of countries where the podcast is heard.
And I think there's like typically like 40 something countries that,
uh, you know, people listen to us.
(10:47):
And so obviously the U S is number one.
And number two is typically been like the UK.
And then from there, what's that?
And sometimes Australia would. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah, so for some reason, we don't know why,
(11:08):
but Ghana has been hovering around number three or number four,
and usually it changes a little bit every month, but this month they're tied
for second with England, so we'll see how that goes.
We may be in second now. Go to Ghana, you know, like tell all your friends. Right, yeah. Yeah.
(11:30):
So anyway, thank you for all, you know, for all the people who listen to us.
You know, we do this for you and, you know, we started it as shameless self-promotion,
but I've certainly evolved into something a lot more.
And, you know, we appreciate the opportunity to entertain you and,
(11:51):
you know, tell you some of the backstories of people that you know,
and even those that you don't know. So thank you.
Yeah and thank you cat i mean i couldn't do this without you and you know you
couldn't do it without me either so i knew i was gonna say am i dying and then
(12:12):
when you said that i'm like okay now i'm good.
Anyway, we'll see you on Mother's Day, and let's talk to Karen and get the backstory
of what she's up to. Great. Sounds great.
Karen, I want to welcome you to Backstory Sessions.
(12:32):
It is so exciting and an honor to have you as our guest today.
Thank you so much. But, well, you know, I have been dying to ask someone this,
and you are the first Karen that we have ever had as a guest.
So I just, I mean, I'm curious, you know, does the name Karen, has that changed?
(12:55):
You know, now that people use it sort of as a, you're being a Karen,
like this, you know, do you laugh about that or find it interesting or?
Well, at first I didn't know what they meant.
And then I read some descriptions of some women who would fit my description, white,
(13:20):
blonde, privileged, behaving in ways that are really embarrassing in public places.
And I was given to understand that that's Karen behavior. So, I think...
What happened is that the name became very popular,
(13:40):
and the people who are of the description I just made behaved badly,
and then it became a thing.
So as far as I'm concerned, I don't even think about the pejorative of the name.
(14:01):
I love my name, and I think the pejorative sense of it will pass and move on
to something else, you know?
Yeah, maybe it'll be like, you know, Kathy or another name in the future.
Well, this is 50 years since The Little House on the Prairie,
(14:21):
and I guess I can't believe it's been 50 years.
What does this seem like to you, time-wise? Oh, it definitely seems like 50 years to me.
You know, I've done a lot of living since the first airing of Little House on the Prairie.
(14:44):
So, yeah, it's a long time ago for me, definitely. Definitely.
So the ending, let's talk about that.
And, you know, I guess that was somewhat controversial at the time to blow up the town.
Did you know that was going to be the ending? Like how much in advance did you
(15:09):
know that was the way the show would end?
Well, we got the script, you know, so of course we knew.
As soon as we were sent the script and invited to do it.
And for me, I thought, oh, it's such a shame to blow up all those memories.
(15:30):
But that was the decision that Mike made.
Did he ever share, like, why that he felt that was the direction it should go?
No. Yes. You know, I guess it's, I don't know, it's just one of those memorable
endings to shows. And I was just curious how you thought about that being. Well, we were sad.
(15:55):
We were sad because it put such a final cap on the show,
whereas the Waltons, for example, could go on doing the occasional special for
Christmas or some other special event,
and there would be a reason for the cast to come back together.
(16:20):
Other but that was clearly not going to happen
for a little house so that was sad
you know because it was really goodbye and and we were all standing there crying
oh i can't imagine i'm sure the audience of course you know as we watched it
(16:40):
who did not really expect that to be the outcome come,
I'm sure, a lot of tears there as well.
Do you hear, I'm sure you've heard from the fans over the years.
Do they share your sentiment that it was just such a sad thing to see?
(17:00):
Well, everybody doesn't understand why. Everybody wants to know why.
And I don't know the answer to that in the script. But,
The town would rather blow itself up than let somebody else have it.
And so I think that says something about Mike's sense of possession of that
(17:26):
set and those buildings.
Well, so recently, was it all of it or a part of it was reconstructed?
At least your home, I think. Well, it was painted on huge murals,
the little house, the barn, and some of the town buildings.
(17:49):
And then they were stretched and hung up in the places where they existed on
the ranch in the old days.
And so it looked very real from a distance.
Also what was done were
reconstructions of the interiors
(18:12):
of the little house and the mercantile and
those were shown in the community
center in Simi Valley in the
town for the fans to be
able to go and see what they looked
like in scale you know which they were very true to scale So that was quite
(18:35):
a nice feature of this celebration that Simi Valley Chamber and a number of
members of the cast of Little House put on.
And was that just like last month or very recently, I think?
Yeah, that was about three weeks ago. go. Wow.
(18:55):
How did that feel like walking into there? I mean, was it like walking back in time in a way?
Well, I didn't find it emotional.
I found it well done.
But I think Good Morning America was filming us and I think they thought we
(19:22):
were going to collapse and cry and carry on when we saw it.
But really, we just saw it and said, oh, boy, they really did a good job and,
looked around and didn't know what to say, didn't have any lines.
Have to write your own. You know.
(19:46):
Yeah. So, yeah. Was there an object that caught your eye more so than anything else?
Well, yes, there was. Because you might remember from the show, on the mantle,
there was the Little Shepherdess ceramic that Carolyn carried with her on all
(20:10):
of their moves and always would put up on the mantle.
And the artist who had painted the beautiful murals also created out of clay
and fired and painted a little shepherd, a little shepherdess.
(20:31):
So I was very surprised to see her.
Not, you know, she didn't look exactly the same, but she was the same idea.
And I must say that was one thing that, If I had been asked if I would like
to have something from the show, I might have asked for the shepherdess or my black boots.
(20:56):
Yeah. Yeah. That was going to be one of my questions if you did ask to take
something when the show ended.
But that's a lot of detail, you know. I mean, so, wow, they really did sound
like do a very nice job with.
Oh, yeah. They did a beautiful job. There's a man named Eric Caron who lives
(21:18):
in Canada who does miniatures of all the little house buildings.
They are just exquisite.
And they asked him to use his skill in measurement and construction to help
build these big facsimiles.
(21:41):
So he did, and he enjoyed it very much.
Well, this is just really great. And well, do you have you stayed in touch with
the family or, you know, the children over the years?
Well, what happened was that after, I don't know, maybe 15,
(22:05):
20 years, we began to be invited to reunions at, I think the first one was in
Sonora, where we had shot the pilot.
And then fans would be invited to come and we would do panel discussions and
(22:27):
answer questions and sign autographs and things like that.
And that gave us an opportunity to connect with each other,
for me to connect with the now adults who had been the children and to learn
about their lives and also to hear more about what their experience had been at the time,
(22:54):
but that they would not have been able to talk about at the time. Sure.
Well, let's talk about your backstory, like go back to when you were a child.
Did you always want to be an actress?
Oh, probably, but I didn't know it. so I loved dancing I took lessons and my
(23:20):
teacher was very gifted and we did a lot of performing,
I did performances in Sunday school both singing and being in little plays with a moral to them,
at home I had one of those felt boards that you could put figures on and make
(23:42):
up stories so I I would do that.
I was just very expressive, you know.
I would organize the kids into various kinds of skits.
You be the father, you be the mother. This is the setup of the situation.
Stuff like that. And you were a director, too, it sounds like. Yeah, I was very bossy.
(24:11):
Well how did it happen that you decided this was going to be your career well
i i had done plays all through middle school or rather junior high we called
it and through high school but when i I got to college,
the school I had chosen was famous for its theater department,
(24:36):
but they had a rule that first semester freshmen could not be in plays.
So I was frustrated and I,
got busy on the school paper instead. But when I got to Berkeley,
I said, okay, now I'm really going to bear down and study here.
(24:56):
And I'm going to see if I can get good grades and going to stay away from that
theater department over there by the, yeah, it's very close to the English department
where a lot of my classes are.
And they'd have a poster saying auditions. And I'd walk by those posters and
(25:16):
I'd say, I'm not going there. I'm going to the library and study.
And I managed that for probably two semesters.
And then I did a play.
A friend of mine called me up and read the last scene of Look Back in Anger,
(25:41):
which was a very hot play at the time.
Was part of the angry generation in england
and i heard this
scene read and the next day i went
to the auditions and won the lead female part and that that was basically all
she wrote you know after that i went to pasadena house in the summer and at
(26:06):
the end of that course i called my parents parents collect,
of course, because we didn't all have phones in those days where we could talk forever long distance.
Right. And said, I'm not going back to school. I have to be an actress.
And what did they? My mother was like, this was the death knell.
(26:31):
You know, she'd been hoping against hope against this. Right.
So she said, now, Karen, we'll discuss it when we come down to see your play.
We're not going to discuss this on the phone. I said, no, no,
no, no. You always said you wanted me to be happy.
Well, this is what makes me happy.
(26:53):
So they saw that I was just honor bound to do this.
And then they gave me wonderful support.
They were great. They were great.
So how do you get from there to Little House? What made you audition for that show?
Well, many years, you know. I started in a theater in San Francisco.
(27:18):
I went back and got my degree at Cal.
I had a Fulbright to Lambda in London.
I did repertory theater, stock theater, Broadway.
Went back to England, taught. Did Shakespeare there.
And then I was in Los Angeles to do an independent movie.
(27:41):
The movie fell through and I was stranded. I didn't have any more money.
I had spent all my savings on this Shakespeare company.
And I was ready to quit the business. And I got the call to go and see about this new series.
Wow. That title sounds so saccharine. God, I don't think I'll like this.
(28:08):
And of course, it was my big break.
Did you think ever Athena in the early stages that it was going to become as iconic as it has?
No, never dreamed of it. Never, never.
Uh-uh. Were you like the character or was it something that was very different from you?
(28:34):
Oh, totally different, but I have those things within me, and I'm an actress, so...
I drew very much on my own mother for the characterization.
Well, that must have pleased her, I would think, you know.
That's really an honor, I think, when you have that model, I guess, to pull from.
(29:01):
Yeah, she was an outstanding person. and
well so you know
in talking about how you you know
would write the plays and put direct the
people you know the children there must have been a writer in you as well because
now you've gone on to write your own memoir yes well I had when I was a sophomore
(29:26):
in college I was in a writing seminar,
and I was feeling torn between the writing and the acting.
But then when I got into that play, the die was cast.
It was so clear that this was where I really felt at home.
(29:48):
But over the years, I co-wrote that movie for NBC, Battered,
about domestic violence and always kept journals.
And I tried writing various plays and things like that over the years.
When you're not acting, then you need an outlet for your creative energy.
(30:11):
So I would write. and that held up well for me when it came time to write the
memoir because I had so much in my memory from having written so much down. Sure.
Well, how did you decide of all the things what you're going to include?
(30:37):
Oh, that's a good question. Well, I didn't decide at first.
I just started writing, writing, writing, memory after memory after memory as
they popped up into my mind.
And I joined a class in memoir writing and began to read other people's work
(31:00):
and learn what is a memoir.
And then I co-founded a writing group and we wrote memoir together and helped
each other improve our work. and some of us took class after class with this
one teacher we really liked.
And in fact, we are still meeting. We have been meeting for 14 years.
(31:27):
Isn't that something? Yeah, three of us have published, no, four of us have published books.
None of us were writers when we started.
So it's a serious little group there.
And after writing and writing and writing, a friend of mine in the group said
(31:47):
to me, Karen, do you know what your themes are?
And I said, no, I have no idea.
I'm hoping to find out what they are. You know, I'm just writing, writing, writing.
And gradually themes began to emerge and I began to understand what the book was about.
(32:10):
And it helped a
lot because once you know where you're
going then it's easier to decide
what helps get you there and what you
have to you know let go of so was
it hard for you to be vulnerable and share like intimate details of your you
(32:36):
know of your life yes it was very hard And I think that's one reason it took so long to write it,
was because I had to keep peeling the layers to reveal more,
to be more vulnerable.
(32:56):
But once it was out there, you know, it was like, oh, okay, now it's all out there.
People can make of it whatever they make of it. But, you know, it was kind of a relief.
I was going to ask if it maybe felt that way, like once you're finally rid of
(33:20):
it, you know, once you put it out, then you're free of it, I guess, in some ways.
It's true. It's true. And plus, the very fact of writing,
we all found very, very healing in confronting these places in our pasts that
you don't bring up at the dinner parties, you know.
(33:44):
But that we would share with each other in our writing. Matt, what do you think?
So I wanted to go back to Little House for a sec, just for one second.
So you grew up in California and graduated from Ventura High School, I see.
(34:04):
And I was just wondering, how do you think you would fare as a pioneer woman?
Oh, I would have died young.
No seriously those women
were tough they were tough you know
i mean i think it
(34:25):
was when i was around uh maybe 14
15 i had a terrible case of
strep throat well in those days
it would have killed you yeah that's true no antibiotics
and you know those
buck boards those are not very comfortable so as
(34:46):
you go bouncing bouncing across the land
unimproved land oh my
god i was like as we would
do that hal burton was mike's stand-in
and stuntman and he would drive that that
upboard and oh my god i would bounce bounce and
(35:07):
i would think oh those ladies were so tough and and
it's because they were tough they could actually settle the country yeah yeah
yeah i was just curious about what you know about that and then uh the other
thing i saw is that you So you graduated from Berkeley with a degree in English and drama,
(35:31):
and you have that in common with Kat, because she used to be an English teacher
and drama teacher. Oh, is that right?
That's true. Yeah, 20 years or 25 years, isn't it? Well, that's wonderful.
An English teacher is really something. something.
(35:53):
Hey, I really do feel that way.
Yay. And then the other thing is I saw you lived in Louisville and Kentucky for a while.
Yes, you know, there's a very, very well-known theater there called Actors Theater
of Louisville. It has an international reputation.
Where are you guys, actually?
(36:14):
I am in Kentucky, and Matt's in Pennsylvania.
Oh, I see. So you know about Actors Theater if you're in Kentucky.
Yes. Yeah, so I went there to work at Actors Theater while my child was still in grammar school.
And was able to live in an
(36:37):
ordinary house in an ordinary neighborhood
and drive to work
at the theater and have my child
in school and have almost like
a normal life for an actor this
is something very difficult to achieve you know
(36:57):
yeah so it was it
was very attractive to me to go there and
have that opportunity how long were
you there six years cool and
then what was the other thing oh so
what what is next for you i mean we're winding down
on time so uh i just i don't know matt
(37:20):
you know this is an actor's life we
never know what's next are you
still are you still auditioning or well when
anybody will ask me or or sometimes i just get an offer to do like an independent
(37:40):
movie i have one that's available on amazon called not to forget get in which I play an elderly,
demented lady with a lot of money.
And that was a really fun character.
So, no, I don't know what's next. I was at home about two years ago, and.
(38:08):
Twiddling my thumbs and got a phone call from my agent saying,
they want you to come to Canada and do on Golden Pond.
But you'll have to be there next week. I was like, excuse me?
Well, it turned out that Michael Learned
(38:29):
had been booked to do this
play with this company actually before
the the pandemic and they'd been waiting
for the pandemic to pass so that
they could do this production and they were going
into rehearsal next week so she was
home packing to fly to canada and she fell and broke her wrist so she had to
(38:55):
call them and say i can't come she was broken hearted and so they called me
and i was thrilled of course i felt bad for michael but not that bad.
All right cat we got time for one more question from you,
(39:16):
i i guess you know i i just wonder like as you look back over all the things
that you've done in life you know do you do you see the the themes like you
talked about that for your memoir are,
what are the themes you see of your life?
Well, I really think I had a commitment
(39:36):
to learning and to
knowing myself and uncovering
what was hidden in the
unconscious and in my
secrets and becoming a more
conscious human being so that
I could be a part of the solution rather
(39:59):
than a part of the problem well it
is such an honor that we got to speak
with you today you know thank you for sharing these stories and your thoughts
about the long career that you have and you know just uh like the the human
(40:19):
side for us thank you thank Thank you so much for inviting me.
I've really enjoyed talking with the two of you.
Come back anytime and see us. We really appreciate you coming back. Thank you.
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Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
The Nikki Glaser Podcast
Every week comedian and infamous roaster Nikki Glaser provides a fun, fast-paced, and brutally honest look into current pop-culture and her own personal life.