September 25, 2025 • 23 mins
Ever felt trapped in a supervisory relationship that's stunting your growth rather than fostering it? You're not alone. In this candid conversation, we pull back the curtain on toxic supervision practices that plague the mental health profession.
Clinical supervision should be a developmental journey where new clinicians discover their unique therapeutic voice. Instead, too many face micromanagement disguised as "support" that creates clones rather than competent, independent practitioners. We explore how supervisors who constantly shift expectations create anxiety-producing environments where supervisees chase approval rather than focusing on clinical growth. When your supervisor doubles as your employer, those dual roles can create a perfect storm of boundary violations and conflicting priorities.
The power imbalance in supervision is real and undeniable. Many associates and provisionally licensed professionals fear speaking up about inadequate supervision or inappropriate behavior, worried about retaliation that could delay their licensure journey. Particularly troubling is the practice of threatening to withhold verification of supervision hours – an abuse of authority that creates fear instead of fostering development.
For supervisors recognizing these patterns in themselves, we offer solutions rather than shame. Connect with communities like our Texas Supervisor Coalition, utilize resources like the Clinical Supervision Survival Guide, or join our monthly consultation groups. Developing as a supervisor is a process, but that growth shouldn't come at your supervisee's expense.
Stay tuned for our follow-up episode where we'll provide concrete strategies for supervisees to advocate for themselves in challenging supervision situations. Whether you're providing supervision or receiving it, remember that the relationship should fundamentally serve the growth of the clinician and the wellbeing of their clients.
Get your step by step guide to private practice. Because you are too important to lose to not knowing the rules, going broke, burning out, and giving up. #counselorsdontquit.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
okay, hey, I'm dr kate walker, and welcome to this
episode.
We're trying to talk about in avery positive way, believe it
or not toxic supervisor traits.
So so, before you you just go,wait what I mean, think about it
for a second from.
Uh, wait, how do I want toframe this?
(00:24):
Let me start that again.
Okay, hey, it's Dr Kate Walker.
Say my name, right?
Hey, it's Dr Kate Walker.
Welcome to the podcast.
(00:49):
This one is kind of near anddear to our hearts because we
train supervisors, we trainmental health professionals how
to supervise so that they canthen meet the requirements for
their state to supervise othermental health providers, and so
we, I know, feel like we do apretty good job, right, jennifer
?
I mean, you know the reviews aregood, all the things, and then
you know, we still hear aboutsupervisees who are in
(01:12):
situations that just aren't good.
And so having an episode likethis where we talk about
supervisor traits to look outfor and I've done episodes like
this, you know sort of like,okay, here's some warning signs,
what makes a bad supervisor,etc.
But I wanted to dive a littlebit deeper and, jennifer, you're
(01:33):
going to talk about thesethings in terms of kind of what
you're seeing out there becauseyou see so many comments on the
internet and you're such a hugepart of going through all the
assignments with our graders youknow understanding sort of
where people are missing themark.
(01:53):
I mean I know you have talkedabout a bunch of stuff with me
and you get a little frustratedwhen you see what supervisors
you know, or I should saysupervisors-to-be are trying to
maybe put in their contracts ormaybe what they're trying to put
in their plan or how they'reconceptualizing a particular
(02:14):
ethical dilemma.
And I mean I know you get alittle frustrated sometimes.
Speaker 2 (02:19):
Sometimes.
I mean it's the age old whenthere's good there's bad.
I mean it's the age old wherethere's good there's bad.
So for every great supervisorthere is pretending like there
might not be an as great asupervisor.
That's just not reality.
So it's nice to be able to kindof help supervisees know what
to look for and be aware of andknow that they're being seen and
(02:42):
heard and that theirperspective matters.
Speaker 1 (02:45):
Absolutely, and that's a great thing we're going
to talk about too.
You know associates you domatter, and provisionally
licensed folks in other statesyou do matter.
This is, in most cases, anexperience that's required for
you to upgrade to your fulllicense and you can feel
handcuffed, you can feel likeyou're in a situation that you
(03:07):
can't speak up, you can't beassertive, you can't advocate
for yourself, and that's notokay.
And I'm always going to try tosay and and you know supervisors
, they progress developmentallyjust like our new licensees do,
and so, in our course, you knowsupervisors, they progress
developmentally just like ournew licensees do, and so in our
(03:28):
course, you know, we use theterm developmental levels level
one, level two and level threeand we kind of meld all of the
developmental models into thatkind of verbiage.
But as a new supervisor, ifyou're level one and you're
(03:55):
making legitimate level onemistakes, you need to be in
connection in community withgroups like ours.
I mean we have the Facebookgroup, the Texas Supervisor
Coalition.
I wrote a book, the ClinicalSupervision Survival Guide.
We have groups of the Texascounselors creating badass
businesses.
We have this podcast.
I mean, if there's one thingJennifer and I do is we've made
it our calling to put resourcesout there for you level one
(04:16):
supervisor and for you level twosupervisor.
We get it, you're progressing,and maybe you're not doing
everything perfectly, and that'sokay to a point, until it
causes harm and that's whatwe're really talking about today
, when what you're doing couldbe or is causing harm to your
(04:38):
supervisee.
And, of course, I have askedChatGPT for help and Jennifer
and I we talked about thisbeforehand we're like OK, what
do we like?
What do we want to include?
So this is a curated ChatGPTlist.
So number one ismicromanagement masked as
support.
(04:58):
Right, I'm just helping, I'mjust trying to help you along
little supervisee.
Why is that important, jennifer?
Speaker 2 (05:06):
Well, it's important for a lot of reasons.
You know, you come out of gradschool and you take your NCE and
you get your supervisor and youget your license and you start
kind of getting your feet wetand part of that developmental
process is discovering who youare as a therapist.
(05:27):
Who are you going to be as aclinician?
I'm not going to be like mysupervisor.
I'm going to learn from mysupervisor and I'm going to grow
from my supervisor.
But my supervisor is notcreating clones, and so when
you're being micromanaged, itcan be made to feel like, a your
clinical decision making isn'tsound and, b that you need to be
(05:52):
the next Susie Smith therapistextraordinaire.
And as a supervisor, you don'twant to replicate yourself.
I think as a supervisor, one ofthe greatest things you can do
is help your associate developwho they are and that's not
going to look just like you.
And so when you'remicromanaging those clinical
(06:13):
decisions, you're hindering thatgrowth that your supervisee
could potentially have, becauseyou're trying to make them make
every decision as would you andthey're not and they shouldn't.
Speaker 1 (06:27):
OK, I can hear the supervisors now.
Ok, but what about all theliability?
I have to look at every singlething they're doing.
If I miss something then theworld's going to end.
And OK, you know, liability ispart of the job.
But we know, developmentally,they, being the folks who are
(06:48):
under your license, they'resupposed to push back, they're
supposed to become like you said.
They're developing their ownidentity, their own theory,
their own ways of doing things.
And when you micromanage,you're undervalued, giving them
the impression just like if you,you know, keep cutting your
kids meat till they're 15 yearsold, I mean, what is that
telling your kid, right?
I mean you aren't helping yoursupervisee by micromanaging.
(07:12):
All right, so, moving on,inconsistent expectations.
So one day it's this, but thenI'm going to take the bullseye
and I'm going to move it overhere, and then I'm going to move
it up here and I'm going tomove it down there.
I mean this is kind of obviouswhy this is important, right?
Speaker 2 (07:29):
Yeah, and it's really just frustrating.
You say move the bullseye, Isay move the goalposts further
down, and it's almost likeyou're dangling that carrot that
they're never going to be ableto achieve and that creates a
lot of anxiety because then itturns into the supervisees just
trying to chase your approval asopposed to again develop
(07:54):
clinically.
So if I don't know what yourexpectations are, then my focus
shifts to trying to meet setexpectations, whatever those are
, and I stopped caring abouttrying to make sound clinical
decisions and trying to developas a therapist, because now I've
got to make my supervisor happyand they don't seem like
(08:16):
they're ever happy and I'm justchasing you know, all these
carrots everywhere.
So, yeah, it's not ideal.
Speaker 1 (08:24):
Yeah, so no isomorphism there, no counter
transference at all, right, ohmy gosh, dad, I can't please you
Right, and this you know, whenwe the inconsistent expectations
, it's funny.
I was consulting on a case lastweek and I happened to mention,
hey, there's no contract, andthe attorney was like what I'm
(08:49):
like?
Well, no, there's no contracthere and actually there's no
rule that requires a contract.
But if you want to make sureyour expectations are out there
and transparent and yoursupervisee has a chance at
meeting your expectations,develop a freaking contract and
(09:10):
a plan and this isn't ACEs, bestpractices, it's something that
we teach in the 40-hour training, and so when you know that was
that's one of the biggest pointsthat we make in our 40-hour
training you will leave with acontract that has your
expectations for everything fromattendance to payment if you're
exchanging payment, to how tomake up a supervision to, I mean
(09:33):
, what theory is available, youknow, for you to learn.
We want those expectations tobe transparent and not movable,
because we're preserving therelationship.
Right, that's our job,supervisors.
Okay, so this one oversteppingprofessional boundaries Now,
(09:56):
this is probably going to hityou, supervisor business owners,
right in the jaw, because thisisn't just overstepping
boundaries like, hey, it's fiveo'clock, let's go get a drink,
or oh, it's supervision, butfirst look at all of my Avon
products.
I mean, yes, those things areterrible.
(10:16):
Supervisors don't do that.
But this has more to do withdual relationships, right?
So, jennifer, talk a little bitabout that.
Speaker 2 (10:26):
Oh, this one's such a sticky topic Because a lot,
like you said, a lot ofpractices have built a model
around being a practice ownerand also providing clinical
supervision.
(10:49):
Clinical supervision andeverybody there I said that word
everybody goes into that withthe belief that I can separate
the two roles and andeverything's great and dandy and
wonderful until you, who are astickler for showing up at 8am
every day, and that is apriority, and you, you're great
at showing up at 8am, and thenyou have a supervisee that rolls
in at 8 am every day, and thatis a priority, and you're great
at showing up at 8 am, and thenyou have a supervisee that rolls
in at 8.15 and 8.30.
(11:12):
How do you separate, excuse me,how do you separate being their
administrative supervisor andsaying, hey, this is an
expectation, I need you here ateight o'clock, and that not kind
of blurring into their clinicalapproach, because what if
they're a great therapistclinically?
And so yeah it.
I mean, that's just one example, but we're human and I think
(11:37):
everybody needs to take a lookat like what, what am I as a
person?
And if, if I am the type ofperson that it would be
difficult to differentiatebetween, your clinical skills
are fantastic and I'm not goingto let the bias of you showing
up at eight or five every dayimpact that.
But that's a question peoplehave to ask themselves because
(12:00):
it gets real sticky.
And what if you are a greatclinician and you show up to
work late?
I wouldn't want my evaluationas an associate being dinged
because my boss is mad that Ishowed up at 8.05.
Speaker 1 (12:16):
Yeah, and, and you, let's say, I mean I'm going to
expand that because, as abusiness owner, what if you need
that person to do other things,like, okay, I need you to be in
charge of the keys, or I needyou to help with marketing and
write five blogs this month, orI need you to help me with this
(12:37):
grant writing project, okay, andthen if I don't, am I suddenly
a bad clinician on my nextevaluation In small towns?
Please hear me, we are here tosupport you If you are a
business owner and thesupervisor that's.
You know.
I know in Texas, with LPC anyway, dual roles are not prohibited.
(13:00):
They are to be managed.
Lmft not so much.
Lmft is like no dual roles.
So it's just, you have to bevery, very careful, almost to
the point of gosh, I don't know.
I mean I would sit down.
You know we talked abouttransparency, contract for
clinical work, policy andprocedures manual for employment
(13:23):
, and that's what we teach atKay Walker Training in the
40-hour training.
We are very, very clear aboutif somebody tries to put
something in the contract theclinical contract between the
supervisor and supervisee thatreally belongs in the policy and
procedures manual, and you knowthat's what we help with.
We can't go in there into yourbusiness after you've gotten
(13:45):
your s and be like oh hey, youknow what, you're still blurring
those lines.
Speaker 2 (13:50):
Uh, you probably should back off, and you know
but again, dress code is one Isee a lot in contracts.
Um, they will.
They will not be anadministrative supervisor, they
will just do clinical and theywill try to put in their
contract.
What their associate is allowedto wear to supervision Seems
(14:11):
normal, right Like businesscasual, or you, your associate,
what they're allowed to wear toclinical supervision.
Or are they an employee andthat's a standard practice of
your group practice that thereare only jeans on Friday?
And if that's the case, youneed to move that into a
(14:34):
separate document that addressesthings like policies and
procedures.
Speaker 1 (14:39):
Yeah, and if you're wondering where Jennifer and I
are getting these idea of what'sclinical, what's administrative
, go to your favorite assessment.
I mean one that we talk about alot at Kay Walker Training is
the CCSR, and if you Google that, you will see an amazing PDF of
an assessment that's commonlyused to evaluate associates and
(15:01):
pre-grad interns, to evaluateassociates and pre-grad interns
there.
That's all you, I mean, that'sreally all you can ask and put
in your contract for clinicalwork, and there's nothing in
that about you know dress codesor showing up on time.
Now can those things becomeclinical issues?
Of course they can, but as thesupervisor, starting with that,
(15:22):
okay, these are the expectations.
They're not going to movearound.
These are my boundaries andlet's go from there as you
develop from level one to leveltwo to my colleague interns out
(15:43):
there with their ears perked up,and maybe even we've got some
folks who are in situationswhere they're like, ooh, this
sounds a little too familiar andI don't know if it's a good
thing, but we're going to.
I want to talk about one moreand let's see where is it.
Speaker 2 (15:56):
I mean we may have to have a part two.
Speaker 1 (15:58):
Oh, I think we're going to have to have a part two
.
Speaker 2 (16:00):
Because there's some really good things and yeah,
yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:06):
I mean.
Take part two.
Speaker 2 (16:09):
I'm not dancing, though, no way I know, I'll
think it's with you, thank you.
Speaker 1 (16:14):
All right.
One last one Chronicunavailability.
You know, in Gateworkertraining 40-hour training we
talk about direct and vicariousliability.
Direct liability means there'sa rule you ain't doing it and
dot dot dot.
There is a rule that tells thesupervisor when they should be
(16:40):
available, how often they shouldbe available, because it
correlates to the number ofsupervision hours the
associate's supposed to begetting Supervisor.
If you aren't available and youdo a lot of the, hey, you know,
you did great this week.
Just, you know what we'll callthis one signed, we'll call this
a supervision day.
Or you in Texas, you have tohave four hours in a month if
(17:02):
you're an LPC associate andsupervisor looks down and it's
like oh, there's two weeks leftin the month and we didn't get
all the hours.
Oh man, nevermind, we're good,just let's call it good.
Those types of things.
That is complaint worthy.
That's.
That is no bueno.
(17:23):
So if you're an associate andyou're hearing this and you're
recognizing, oh dang, mysupervisor isn't available, I'm
lucky if I get two or threehours.
Or all of my time is spent ingroup.
That's not okay either.
So these toxic supervisortraits, you know this is our
(17:48):
number one job.
Supervisors, we have basicallyone job and that is to protect
the relationship, to make surewe create a space so that our
supervisees are open and honestand transparent with us, so we
can facilitate their growth.
Yes, we are also responsiblefor liability and our
supervisees, clients and on andon, but it starts with that
(18:10):
relationship.
And so if you're a superviseeand you're sitting there going,
yeah, kate, okay, but I'm inthat situation, what do I do?
And of course, I'm looking overhere at my notes because we are
going to have a part two andit's going to be about how to
speak up, and that's not easy,right, jennifer?
Speaker 2 (18:32):
No, and the biggest fear, I think, for a lot of
supervisees is retaliation andpushback.
There is a power imbalance.
There is unequivocally a powerimbalance.
We can pretend we can say, butthere is, and a lot of
associates and supervisees canfeel like if I say something,
(18:55):
what will the fallout be?
How will this impact me?
Will they?
You know, one of the lines thatI see in a lot of contracts is
is if the supervisor has anyconcerns about the clinical
skills of the supervisee, I willrefuse to sign off on hours.
And I, I, yeah, and I always, Ialways say if your supervisee
(19:21):
attends supervision, you cannotrefuse to sign off on hours.
Right there, if you leave thatline in your contract, you're
telling your supervisee I holdall the power and if I don't
like something you're doing,good luck getting those hours,
because I'm not signing off onthem and you don't want to enter
(19:42):
into any relationship on dayone with that hanging over your
head.
You can remediate, you candiscuss.
There are so many things inplace to protect supervisors.
If they have concerns about theclinical abilities of their
associates, Right, butthreatening hours should never
be one of them.
Speaker 1 (20:03):
No, no.
And how many times do we see atthe end of supervision?
Or you know if, if supervisiondoesn't end well and the
supervisor's like, well, fine, Ijust won't turn in the hours,
well, again, here we are.
You in Texas, anyway, for LPCand LMFT you had 30 days, that's
it.
(20:23):
And so you're hanging on tothose records because you're
going to show them who's boss.
You're just going to be the onewho ends up in trouble.
And again, we don't want toleave you hanging supervisors.
This is not about shaming you.
This is not about you knowsaying, oh, you know, look,
you're doing it wrong.
Well, it kind of is, but wehave resources.
(20:46):
I will never give you a problemwithout a solution.
Right, and the solution is getin community.
Get in community.
I mean, if it's not mine, findsomething like mine.
I mean, we have so many folks inthe Texas Supervisor Coalition
Facebook page who are willing tohelp out and answer questions.
(21:07):
It's a zero-snark zone.
You get forms, you getresources.
We don't put anything behind apaywall in that Facebook group.
And if you're not a Facebooker,well, come to the monthly
consultation groups.
We do that.
It's usually the last Monday ofevery month.
You just go to the websitekatewalkertrainingcom.
You can find the link to getyour ticket to that.
(21:30):
And again, it's a wonderfulsupportive place.
We don't record it.
There are zero replays.
It's just a safe place for youto say hey, I thought I knew
this rule, I thought I was doingit right.
I don't think I am, and help medo better.
And we got you.
We absolutely will wrap you upin the Texas Supervisor
(21:53):
Coalition cozy arms of community, and we will help you make good
choices so that if you're doinga toxic trait I mean it's kind
of like parenting I mean, youknow, welcome to the club, we're
all going to mess up, but, likeI tell my kids, ignorance is
not a defense to prosecution.
Speaker 2 (22:12):
No no no, it is not.
Speaker 1 (22:19):
And if you guys are listening to this and you are
following Kate Walker trainingand all the things we do, you
guys know a lot of stuff.
So let's make some positivechanges and we will get to
supervisees.
If you're in the situation andyou're afraid to speak up, we're
going to give you some tools onthe next episode.
So, hey, thanks for watching,moving on and moving forward.
(22:40):
See you later.
okay, hey, I'm dr kate walker, and welcome to this
episode.
We're trying to talk about in avery positive way, believe it
or not toxic supervisor traits.
So so, before you you just go,wait what I mean, think about it
for a second from.
Uh, wait, how do I want toframe this?
(00:24):
Let me start that again.
Okay, hey, it's Dr Kate Walker.
Say my name, right?
Hey, it's Dr Kate Walker.
Welcome to the podcast.
(00:49):
This one is kind of near anddear to our hearts because we
train supervisors, we trainmental health professionals how
to supervise so that they canthen meet the requirements for
their state to supervise othermental health providers, and so
we, I know, feel like we do apretty good job, right, jennifer
?
I mean, you know the reviews aregood, all the things, and then
you know, we still hear aboutsupervisees who are in
(01:12):
situations that just aren't good.
And so having an episode likethis where we talk about
supervisor traits to look outfor and I've done episodes like
this, you know sort of like,okay, here's some warning signs,
what makes a bad supervisor,etc.
But I wanted to dive a littlebit deeper and, jennifer, you're
(01:33):
going to talk about thesethings in terms of kind of what
you're seeing out there becauseyou see so many comments on the
internet and you're such a hugepart of going through all the
assignments with our graders youknow understanding sort of
where people are missing themark.
(01:53):
I mean I know you have talkedabout a bunch of stuff with me
and you get a little frustratedwhen you see what supervisors
you know, or I should saysupervisors-to-be are trying to
maybe put in their contracts ormaybe what they're trying to put
in their plan or how they'reconceptualizing a particular
(02:14):
ethical dilemma.
And I mean I know you get alittle frustrated sometimes.
Speaker 2 (02:19):
Sometimes.
I mean it's the age old whenthere's good there's bad.
I mean it's the age old wherethere's good there's bad.
So for every great supervisorthere is pretending like there
might not be an as great asupervisor.
That's just not reality.
So it's nice to be able to kindof help supervisees know what
to look for and be aware of andknow that they're being seen and
(02:42):
heard and that theirperspective matters.
Speaker 1 (02:45):
Absolutely, and that's a great thing we're going
to talk about too.
You know associates you domatter, and provisionally
licensed folks in other statesyou do matter.
This is, in most cases, anexperience that's required for
you to upgrade to your fulllicense and you can feel
handcuffed, you can feel likeyou're in a situation that you
(03:07):
can't speak up, you can't beassertive, you can't advocate
for yourself, and that's notokay.
And I'm always going to try tosay and and you know supervisors
, they progress developmentallyjust like our new licensees do,
and so, in our course, you knowsupervisors, they progress
developmentally just like ournew licensees do, and so in our
(03:28):
course, you know, we use theterm developmental levels level
one, level two and level threeand we kind of meld all of the
developmental models into thatkind of verbiage.
But as a new supervisor, ifyou're level one and you're
(03:55):
making legitimate level onemistakes, you need to be in
connection in community withgroups like ours.
I mean we have the Facebookgroup, the Texas Supervisor
Coalition.
I wrote a book, the ClinicalSupervision Survival Guide.
We have groups of the Texascounselors creating badass
businesses.
We have this podcast.
I mean, if there's one thingJennifer and I do is we've made
it our calling to put resourcesout there for you level one
(04:16):
supervisor and for you level twosupervisor.
We get it, you're progressing,and maybe you're not doing
everything perfectly, and that'sokay to a point, until it
causes harm and that's whatwe're really talking about today
, when what you're doing couldbe or is causing harm to your
(04:38):
supervisee.
And, of course, I have askedChatGPT for help and Jennifer
and I we talked about thisbeforehand we're like OK, what
do we like?
What do we want to include?
So this is a curated ChatGPTlist.
So number one ismicromanagement masked as
support.
(04:58):
Right, I'm just helping, I'mjust trying to help you along
little supervisee.
Why is that important, jennifer?
Speaker 2 (05:06):
Well, it's important for a lot of reasons.
You know, you come out of gradschool and you take your NCE and
you get your supervisor and youget your license and you start
kind of getting your feet wetand part of that developmental
process is discovering who youare as a therapist.
(05:27):
Who are you going to be as aclinician?
I'm not going to be like mysupervisor.
I'm going to learn from mysupervisor and I'm going to grow
from my supervisor.
But my supervisor is notcreating clones, and so when
you're being micromanaged, itcan be made to feel like, a your
clinical decision making isn'tsound and, b that you need to be
(05:52):
the next Susie Smith therapistextraordinaire.
And as a supervisor, you don'twant to replicate yourself.
I think as a supervisor, one ofthe greatest things you can do
is help your associate developwho they are and that's not
going to look just like you.
And so when you'remicromanaging those clinical
(06:13):
decisions, you're hindering thatgrowth that your supervisee
could potentially have, becauseyou're trying to make them make
every decision as would you andthey're not and they shouldn't.
Speaker 1 (06:27):
OK, I can hear the supervisors now.
Ok, but what about all theliability?
I have to look at every singlething they're doing.
If I miss something then theworld's going to end.
And OK, you know, liability ispart of the job.
But we know, developmentally,they, being the folks who are
(06:48):
under your license, they'resupposed to push back, they're
supposed to become like you said.
They're developing their ownidentity, their own theory,
their own ways of doing things.
And when you micromanage,you're undervalued, giving them
the impression just like if you,you know, keep cutting your
kids meat till they're 15 yearsold, I mean, what is that
telling your kid, right?
I mean you aren't helping yoursupervisee by micromanaging.
(07:12):
All right, so, moving on,inconsistent expectations.
So one day it's this, but thenI'm going to take the bullseye
and I'm going to move it overhere, and then I'm going to move
it up here and I'm going tomove it down there.
I mean this is kind of obviouswhy this is important, right?
Speaker 2 (07:29):
Yeah, and it's really just frustrating.
You say move the bullseye, Isay move the goalposts further
down, and it's almost likeyou're dangling that carrot that
they're never going to be ableto achieve and that creates a
lot of anxiety because then itturns into the supervisees just
trying to chase your approval asopposed to again develop
(07:54):
clinically.
So if I don't know what yourexpectations are, then my focus
shifts to trying to meet setexpectations, whatever those are
, and I stopped caring abouttrying to make sound clinical
decisions and trying to developas a therapist, because now I've
got to make my supervisor happyand they don't seem like
(08:16):
they're ever happy and I'm justchasing you know, all these
carrots everywhere.
So, yeah, it's not ideal.
Speaker 1 (08:24):
Yeah, so no isomorphism there, no counter
transference at all, right, ohmy gosh, dad, I can't please you
Right, and this you know, whenwe the inconsistent expectations
, it's funny.
I was consulting on a case lastweek and I happened to mention,
hey, there's no contract, andthe attorney was like what I'm
(08:49):
like?
Well, no, there's no contracthere and actually there's no
rule that requires a contract.
But if you want to make sureyour expectations are out there
and transparent and yoursupervisee has a chance at
meeting your expectations,develop a freaking contract and
(09:10):
a plan and this isn't ACEs, bestpractices, it's something that
we teach in the 40-hour training, and so when you know that was
that's one of the biggest pointsthat we make in our 40-hour
training you will leave with acontract that has your
expectations for everything fromattendance to payment if you're
exchanging payment, to how tomake up a supervision to, I mean
(09:33):
, what theory is available, youknow, for you to learn.
We want those expectations tobe transparent and not movable,
because we're preserving therelationship.
Right, that's our job,supervisors.
Okay, so this one oversteppingprofessional boundaries Now,
(09:56):
this is probably going to hityou, supervisor business owners,
right in the jaw, because thisisn't just overstepping
boundaries like, hey, it's fiveo'clock, let's go get a drink,
or oh, it's supervision, butfirst look at all of my Avon
products.
I mean, yes, those things areterrible.
(10:16):
Supervisors don't do that.
But this has more to do withdual relationships, right?
So, jennifer, talk a little bitabout that.
Speaker 2 (10:26):
Oh, this one's such a sticky topic Because a lot,
like you said, a lot ofpractices have built a model
around being a practice ownerand also providing clinical
supervision.
(10:49):
Clinical supervision andeverybody there I said that word
everybody goes into that withthe belief that I can separate
the two roles and andeverything's great and dandy and
wonderful until you, who are astickler for showing up at 8am
every day, and that is apriority, and you, you're great
at showing up at 8am, and thenyou have a supervisee that rolls
in at 8 am every day, and thatis a priority, and you're great
at showing up at 8 am, and thenyou have a supervisee that rolls
in at 8.15 and 8.30.
(11:12):
How do you separate, excuse me,how do you separate being their
administrative supervisor andsaying, hey, this is an
expectation, I need you here ateight o'clock, and that not kind
of blurring into their clinicalapproach, because what if
they're a great therapistclinically?
And so yeah it.
I mean, that's just one example, but we're human and I think
(11:37):
everybody needs to take a lookat like what, what am I as a
person?
And if, if I am the type ofperson that it would be
difficult to differentiatebetween, your clinical skills
are fantastic and I'm not goingto let the bias of you showing
up at eight or five every dayimpact that.
But that's a question peoplehave to ask themselves because
(12:00):
it gets real sticky.
And what if you are a greatclinician and you show up to
work late?
I wouldn't want my evaluationas an associate being dinged
because my boss is mad that Ishowed up at 8.05.
Speaker 1 (12:16):
Yeah, and, and you, let's say, I mean I'm going to
expand that because, as abusiness owner, what if you need
that person to do other things,like, okay, I need you to be in
charge of the keys, or I needyou to help with marketing and
write five blogs this month, orI need you to help me with this
(12:37):
grant writing project, okay, andthen if I don't, am I suddenly
a bad clinician on my nextevaluation In small towns?
Please hear me, we are here tosupport you If you are a
business owner and thesupervisor that's.
You know.
I know in Texas, with LPC anyway, dual roles are not prohibited.
(13:00):
They are to be managed.
Lmft not so much.
Lmft is like no dual roles.
So it's just, you have to bevery, very careful, almost to
the point of gosh, I don't know.
I mean I would sit down.
You know we talked abouttransparency, contract for
clinical work, policy andprocedures manual for employment
(13:23):
, and that's what we teach atKay Walker Training in the
40-hour training.
We are very, very clear aboutif somebody tries to put
something in the contract theclinical contract between the
supervisor and supervisee thatreally belongs in the policy and
procedures manual, and you knowthat's what we help with.
We can't go in there into yourbusiness after you've gotten
(13:45):
your s and be like oh hey, youknow what, you're still blurring
those lines.
Speaker 2 (13:50):
Uh, you probably should back off, and you know
but again, dress code is one Isee a lot in contracts.
Um, they will.
They will not be anadministrative supervisor, they
will just do clinical and theywill try to put in their
contract.
What their associate is allowedto wear to supervision Seems
(14:11):
normal, right Like businesscasual, or you, your associate,
what they're allowed to wear toclinical supervision.
Or are they an employee andthat's a standard practice of
your group practice that thereare only jeans on Friday?
And if that's the case, youneed to move that into a
(14:34):
separate document that addressesthings like policies and
procedures.
Speaker 1 (14:39):
Yeah, and if you're wondering where Jennifer and I
are getting these idea of what'sclinical, what's administrative
, go to your favorite assessment.
I mean one that we talk about alot at Kay Walker Training is
the CCSR, and if you Google that, you will see an amazing PDF of
an assessment that's commonlyused to evaluate associates and
(15:01):
pre-grad interns, to evaluateassociates and pre-grad interns
there.
That's all you, I mean, that'sreally all you can ask and put
in your contract for clinicalwork, and there's nothing in
that about you know dress codesor showing up on time.
Now can those things becomeclinical issues?
Of course they can, but as thesupervisor, starting with that,
(15:22):
okay, these are the expectations.
They're not going to movearound.
These are my boundaries andlet's go from there as you
develop from level one to leveltwo to my colleague interns out
(15:43):
there with their ears perked up,and maybe even we've got some
folks who are in situationswhere they're like, ooh, this
sounds a little too familiar andI don't know if it's a good
thing, but we're going to.
I want to talk about one moreand let's see where is it.
Speaker 2 (15:56):
I mean we may have to have a part two.
Speaker 1 (15:58):
Oh, I think we're going to have to have a part two
.
Speaker 2 (16:00):
Because there's some really good things and yeah,
yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:06):
I mean.
Take part two.
Speaker 2 (16:09):
I'm not dancing, though, no way I know, I'll
think it's with you, thank you.
Speaker 1 (16:14):
All right.
One last one Chronicunavailability.
You know, in Gateworkertraining 40-hour training we
talk about direct and vicariousliability.
Direct liability means there'sa rule you ain't doing it and
dot dot dot.
There is a rule that tells thesupervisor when they should be
(16:40):
available, how often they shouldbe available, because it
correlates to the number ofsupervision hours the
associate's supposed to begetting Supervisor.
If you aren't available and youdo a lot of the, hey, you know,
you did great this week.
Just, you know what we'll callthis one signed, we'll call this
a supervision day.
Or you in Texas, you have tohave four hours in a month if
(17:02):
you're an LPC associate andsupervisor looks down and it's
like oh, there's two weeks leftin the month and we didn't get
all the hours.
Oh man, nevermind, we're good,just let's call it good.
Those types of things.
That is complaint worthy.
That's.
That is no bueno.
(17:23):
So if you're an associate andyou're hearing this and you're
recognizing, oh dang, mysupervisor isn't available, I'm
lucky if I get two or threehours.
Or all of my time is spent ingroup.
That's not okay either.
So these toxic supervisortraits, you know this is our
(17:48):
number one job.
Supervisors, we have basicallyone job and that is to protect
the relationship, to make surewe create a space so that our
supervisees are open and honestand transparent with us, so we
can facilitate their growth.
Yes, we are also responsiblefor liability and our
supervisees, clients and on andon, but it starts with that
(18:10):
relationship.
And so if you're a superviseeand you're sitting there going,
yeah, kate, okay, but I'm inthat situation, what do I do?
And of course, I'm looking overhere at my notes because we are
going to have a part two andit's going to be about how to
speak up, and that's not easy,right, jennifer?
Speaker 2 (18:32):
No, and the biggest fear, I think, for a lot of
supervisees is retaliation andpushback.
There is a power imbalance.
There is unequivocally a powerimbalance.
We can pretend we can say, butthere is, and a lot of
associates and supervisees canfeel like if I say something,
(18:55):
what will the fallout be?
How will this impact me?
Will they?
You know, one of the lines thatI see in a lot of contracts is
is if the supervisor has anyconcerns about the clinical
skills of the supervisee, I willrefuse to sign off on hours.
And I, I, yeah, and I always, Ialways say if your supervisee
(19:21):
attends supervision, you cannotrefuse to sign off on hours.
Right there, if you leave thatline in your contract, you're
telling your supervisee I holdall the power and if I don't
like something you're doing,good luck getting those hours,
because I'm not signing off onthem and you don't want to enter
(19:42):
into any relationship on dayone with that hanging over your
head.
You can remediate, you candiscuss.
There are so many things inplace to protect supervisors.
If they have concerns about theclinical abilities of their
associates, Right, butthreatening hours should never
be one of them.
Speaker 1 (20:03):
No, no.
And how many times do we see atthe end of supervision?
Or you know if, if supervisiondoesn't end well and the
supervisor's like, well, fine, Ijust won't turn in the hours,
well, again, here we are.
You in Texas, anyway, for LPCand LMFT you had 30 days, that's
it.
(20:23):
And so you're hanging on tothose records because you're
going to show them who's boss.
You're just going to be the onewho ends up in trouble.
And again, we don't want toleave you hanging supervisors.
This is not about shaming you.
This is not about you knowsaying, oh, you know, look,
you're doing it wrong.
Well, it kind of is, but wehave resources.
(20:46):
I will never give you a problemwithout a solution.
Right, and the solution is getin community.
Get in community.
I mean, if it's not mine, findsomething like mine.
I mean, we have so many folks inthe Texas Supervisor Coalition
Facebook page who are willing tohelp out and answer questions.
(21:07):
It's a zero-snark zone.
You get forms, you getresources.
We don't put anything behind apaywall in that Facebook group.
And if you're not a Facebooker,well, come to the monthly
consultation groups.
We do that.
It's usually the last Monday ofevery month.
You just go to the websitekatewalkertrainingcom.
You can find the link to getyour ticket to that.
(21:30):
And again, it's a wonderfulsupportive place.
We don't record it.
There are zero replays.
It's just a safe place for youto say hey, I thought I knew
this rule, I thought I was doingit right.
I don't think I am, and help medo better.
And we got you.
We absolutely will wrap you upin the Texas Supervisor
(21:53):
Coalition cozy arms of community, and we will help you make good
choices so that if you're doinga toxic trait I mean it's kind
of like parenting I mean, youknow, welcome to the club, we're
all going to mess up, but, likeI tell my kids, ignorance is
not a defense to prosecution.
Speaker 2 (22:12):
No no no, it is not.
Speaker 1 (22:19):
And if you guys are listening to this and you are
following Kate Walker trainingand all the things we do, you
guys know a lot of stuff.
So let's make some positivechanges and we will get to
supervisees.
If you're in the situation andyou're afraid to speak up, we're
going to give you some tools onthe next episode.
So, hey, thanks for watching,moving on and moving forward.
(22:40):
See you later.
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