October 30, 2025 • 27 mins
Power and pay should never silence honest supervision, yet that’s exactly what happens when your supervisor is also your boss. We take you inside the messy overlap of employment and clinical supervision and lay out a simple blueprint to protect ethics, growth, and income without burning bridges.
We start by drawing a bright line between two documents most people blur: the clinical supervision contract and the policies and procedures manual. One governs evaluation, documentation, and remediation; the other covers schedules, dress codes, write-ups, and progressive discipline. Then we tackle the landmines—mid-contract rate hikes, clawbacks passed to associates, and the myth that hours can be held hostage. You’ll hear how to set stable payment terms, define “timely” access to supervision records, and create remediation plans that build competence instead of fear.
We also unpack the W-2 vs 1099 decision with a clear control lens: if you set schedules, restrict methods, and review records, you likely have an employee, not a contractor. That choice impacts taxes, benefits, records custody, subpoenas, and HIPAA responsibilities. To make dual roles workable, we share practical systems: split meetings into admin then clinical, start the supervision clock only when clinical begins, label agendas by role, and document goals and feedback every session. The mindset shift matters most—coach toward a future colleague rather than punish from a hierarchy.
Whether you’re a small-town agency owner wearing two hats or an associate vetting your first role, you’ll leave with concrete steps to protect your license path and your paycheck: what to ask for in contracts, how to assess classification, where to set boundaries, and when to walk away. If the goal is a thriving practice and a strong professional reputation, clarity beats charisma every time.
If this was helpful, follow the show, share it with a colleague who needs cleaner supervision systems, and leave a quick review so more therapists can find it. Grab the free “10 Delegation Quick Wins for Counselors” at KateWalkerTraining.com/bonus and tell us: what boundary will you set this week?
Get your step by step guide to private practice. Because you are too important to lose to not knowing the rules, going broke, burning out, and giving up. #counselorsdontquit.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_01 (00:00):
Supervisors, the best way to stay out of trouble
if you know you're going to bein a dual relationship.
And I'm talking to you, smalltown agency owner.
I get that.
You're in a small town, you'vegot to wear two hats.
I've been there.
A lot of supervisors have beenthere.
I want you to listen to mywords.
SPEAKER_00 (00:24):
Welcome to Badest Therapists, building practices
of life.
It's all about working smarter,not harder.
And here's your host, Dr.
Kate Walker.
SPEAKER_01 (00:39):
You want to hear something scary?
If you run a group practice andalso supervise your associates,
you're wearing two hats, bossand clinical supervisor.
And let's be honest, that canget messy and scary fast.
Today, Jennifer and I talk aboutthe systems that make this dual
role clearer, safer, and lessstressful for everyone involved.
(01:02):
And don't miss the mid-roll formy freebie, 10 delegation quick
wins for counselors atKateWalkerTraining.com slash
bonus.
Now, let's get to work.
Hey, I'm Dr.
Kate Walker with Kate WalkerTraining, and this is Jennifer
Murray Fairchild.
(01:23):
And if you don't know us,welcome.
I'm so glad you're here.
We're continuing ourconversation about bad
supervision.
And bad supervision can comefrom a lot of places.
So today we're going to drilldown on this idea of how dual
roles can get you in trouble.
So if you're listening to thisin Texas, what you need to know
(01:46):
here is we're talking about LPCsupervision because dual roles
are permitted.
They just must be managed.
If you're an LMFT in Texas, asof this recording, dual roles
are not permitted.
In social work, I believe dualroles, that's so hard to say,
(02:06):
are also not permitted.
So you may be thinking, well,why am I even listening to this?
What does it mean?
Hey, if you're working for yoursupervisor, your supervisor is
in a dual role.
They are your boss and they areyour clinical supervisor.
So you know what this means fromcounseling, where it, right?
(02:27):
It's prohibited in every mentalhealth arena I'm aware of in
every state that I'm aware of.
You cannot have a dual role withyour client because it's
unethical.
It's not right, right?
Picture, you know, you're goingto counsel someone and then in
an hour they're going to fixyour car, right?
(02:49):
You can't have that dualrelationship and continue to be
very therapeutic, right?
Maybe you wouldn't challengethem in the way they need to be
challenged in counseling becauseyou're afraid they won't fix
your car well or something likethat.
So dual relationships muddy thewaters.
So this podcast isn't going toadvocate for or against dual
(03:15):
relationships and supervision,but as you can tell from the
title, we are going to drilldown on what gets you in
trouble.
And we've seen a lot of stuff onthe internet about problems that
for me personally can be tracedback to the dual role.
And Jennifer, you're going totalk about some things that we
(03:38):
see in the 40-hour training whenfolks are designing their
contract and their supervisionplan.
Uh, because that starts theconversation.
If you plan on hiring yoursupervisee, you've got to lay
the grounds, just like if youwere going to go work anywhere,
you need to have a good jobdescription and a good contract.
(03:59):
So, first things first, we talkabout having a good clinical
contract.
And if you're going to be abusiness owner, have a policy
and procedures manual.
Two very, very different things.
And so, Jennifer, talk aboutwhere we have to correct people
if they're trying to put boththings into the clinical
(04:22):
supervision contract.
SPEAKER_02 (04:24):
Well, a good rule of thumb is if it is something that
I could write you up for at anormal job, then that's probably
something that needs to go intopolicies and procedures.
So you'll find things like, Iexpect my associates to come to
supervision dressed in business,casual.
Well, that's an administrativething.
(04:45):
And while some people havepreferences, clinical
supervision doesn't enter thearena of, you know, regulating
what somebody's wearing.
They'll say things like, youknow, if two supervision
sessions are, if you're late,then I'm going to write you up.
Things that that are that aregoing to draw you in a punitive
(05:09):
nature, that's kind of where ifI if I need to reprimand your
work behaviors, that's going togo into policies and procedures.
If I'm dealing with yourclinical behaviors, that stuff
needs to go into a contract.
You know, what is your lateno-show cancellation policy?
That's a great thing to have inthere because I need to know and
(05:30):
you need to know what's going tohappen if you're late.
And we have a plan to mitigatethat.
So those are kind of some of thebigger ones I see.
I love when they say, you know,you have to wear business casual
supervision.
SPEAKER_01 (05:42):
Or else what?
Yeah.
I mean, and one of the things,if you look at a very
well-researched, very valid,reliable instrument called the
CCSR that Dr.
Gary Lamby developed, you willsee there are criteria on that
instrument that relate to, Iwill just call it like agency
(06:04):
behavior, you know, being ableto get along in a setting, in a
work setting, right?
We're our background, at leastin Texas, clinical mental
health, you know, our roots arein agencies.
And how you behave in your breakroom, associates and
supervisors, can reflect how youact with your clients or in
(06:26):
supervision.
So, you know, being able as asupervisor to say, hey, you've
been late to work, is that aclinical issue or is that an
administrative issue, right?
They're dual roles.
It can become a clinical issuefor sure.
In fact, we have a module onthat in our online 40-hour
(06:46):
training to become a supervisor.
We talk about someone who'schronically late for supervision
or, like Jennifer mentioned,they no show without an
explanation, or, you know, thatneeds to be addressed because
it's really classic level twobehavior when they're kind of
over it.
They're kind of, okay, I don'tknow if I want to do this
anymore.
(07:06):
So as a boss, if they'rechronically late, would you
write them up?
Would you give them a verbalwarning?
Would you say, okay, threestrikes and you're out?
Because here's the problemSupervision is like, I don't
want to call it a marriagebecause you are supposed to
break up after the hours areconcluded, right?
But the idea is to stay togetherand here's the word, remediate.
(07:32):
We're looking to remediatebehaviors so that this person
develops into your colleague.
At work, it's more like, okay,strike one, strike two, strike
three, go find another job.
And the problems that we see,well, this is just one.
You know what?
When you fire them from the jobin Texas, you're still the
(07:55):
supervisor, right?
So it's it's a completelydifferent mechanism that I don't
even want to get into here onhow to terminate supervision if
you are the supervisor.
So this idea of having a policyand procedures manual to
outline, we call it aprogressive discipline.
Well, we don't call it that.
(08:16):
Everybody calls it that.
A progressive discipline plan,right?
I have verbal warning, writtenwrite-up, whatever, you're
fired.
Well, your clinical contract isgoing to talk about how we're
going to evaluate you, thenwe're going to remediate, and
then what comes next so that Ican grow you into my calling.
(08:37):
So, Jennifer, am I hitting it?
Anything you would add to that?
SPEAKER_02 (08:41):
Well, no, you you covered it great.
And the especially like the lateno-show stuff, I think it can be
difficult to separate that oneparticularly because being
punctual and on time and showingup to meetings is a very much
ingrained in our society.
(09:02):
So your natural tendency is tolean towards, I'm going to
punish that.
And you can't.
SPEAKER_01 (09:51):
And I said, Well, she should have asked or talked
to her supervisor, right?
So the conversation is key here.
Now, associates, I want toempower you right now.
You know, we just did an episodeon toxic supervision behaviors.
And we did an episode on how toand when to speak up to your
(10:12):
supervisor.
Advocating for yourself iscrucial here.
And so I hope you're listeningto this.
And if you're thinking, oh mygosh, this sounds like my
supervision situation, have theconversation.
I want to empower you to dothat.
I totally get it.
If it's intimidating, if it'sscary to do so, you know, and
(10:34):
supervisors, if you're listeningto this and you're thinking, I
need to change a couple ofthings, yeah, you better change
a couple of things becausewhat's happening, and I'm not
gonna read the verbiagedirectly, but there are
associates who feel thatsupervisors are being predatory.
So for example, you know, youmess with somebody's money,
(10:55):
there's gonna be a problem.
So if you have put into acontract, hey, supervision, I
will charge you this, or it willcome out of your paycheck like
that, and on and on we go.
And then all of a sudden,supervisee shows up and you're
like, hey, I'm raising my rates.
If you want to continue with me,pony up, right?
(11:17):
Or you don't know how toreinforce no, no, or or a
clawback, you know, uh, with LPCassociates, they're not able to
get paneled as of thisrecording, but you know, their
services can be reimbursed byinsurance.
So if there's a clawback, whatif the supervisor's gonna say,
hey, you're not gonna get paidfor the next couple of weeks
(11:37):
because we had a clawback,you're messing with somebody's
money, and then you're gonna goback and tell your supervisee,
hey, be open with me.
How's it going?
I promise.
I mean, gosh, that reminds me ofmy when my parents like asked me
if you've used weed before whenI was 14.
SPEAKER_02 (11:57):
They're like, be honest with us.
Well, you you did, you made onereally good point, and I forgot
to address it a while ago.
Supervisors forget that this isa temporary relationship, and
the goal is to make thisindividual your colleague.
And if you treated me like crapwhen I was an associate, to all
(12:18):
of a sudden now I'm an LPC andI'm fully licensed and now I'm
worthy and you're gonna be nice.
I don't find that I'm probablygonna have a lot of respect for
you.
And I'm gonna always remember,yeah, that's that supervisor
that was awful to me.
So you prevent the ability tobuild and network and connect
and have great colleagues whenyou supervise from this
(12:40):
hierarchy, punitive, I'm gonnapunish you vantage.
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01 (12:49):
More and more counselors are walking away from
group practices and evenplatforms like Headway because
the systems just don't work.
If you're ready to build yourown support, my free guide, 10
Delegation Quick Wins forCounselors, shows you exactly
what tasks you can hand off thisweek to save time and stay HIPAA
(13:10):
compliant.
Grab it now atKateWalkertraining.com slash
bonus.
So, okay, what have we learnedso far?
Associates, there aresituations, at least in Texas,
as of this recording, where youcan work for your supervisor.
(13:31):
Okay, totally legal, totallyokay.
But Jennifer and I want to giveyou things to be aware of and to
look out for.
And supervisors, while you'relistening to this, I want you to
be taking notes, hit pause, goback and listen to it again.
So, number one, have a contract.
Supervisees, look at thatcontract, read that contract.
(13:55):
And if you are also going towork for your supervisor, say,
hey, where's the policy andprocedures manual?
Right.
And some things to look for in apolicy and procedures manual are
who's the records custodian?
What happens if there's aclawback?
What happens if I don't tuck myshirt in?
Right?
All of the things related toyour money, your time, things
(14:18):
that can get written up.
And then ask your supervisor,explain remediation to me.
How do I know if I'm notmastering a skill and you're
gonna remediate me?
And will this affect my job?
The answer should be no, itshouldn't affect your job unless
you do something extremelyterrible, like have sex with
(14:39):
your client or do all thethings.
But Jennifer, what would you addto that?
SPEAKER_02 (14:44):
The one thing that I see more often than not is the I
call it the hour, like holdingyour hours hostage.
Because a lot of supervisorsthink if me, the supervisor, has
any sort of concern about yourclinical abilities, I may not
sign off on your hours.
(15:04):
But what supervisors forget isif I attended supervision and I
saw clients, then thatsupervisor is still liable for
all of those hours.
And the big question is, iswell, you didn't sign off on
them, but you were liable.
And then you enter the wholerealm of, well, not all
(15:26):
supervisors are created equally.
And what if the supervisordecides they don't like me and
they just refuse to sign off onmy hours?
Again, now you're messing withmy money and my ability to get
fully licensed.
And it just, it's just never agood look.
It's never a good look to saythat I could refuse.
That just screams, I'm large andin charge.
SPEAKER_01 (15:47):
Yeah, you I mean, you can't even withhold
someone's paycheck because youdidn't like the way they they
stock the shelves, right?
I mean, you don't mess withpeople's money ever.
I just good rule of thumb.
I want to talk about a littlebit, a tiny bit, 1099 versus
W-2.
(16:07):
Now, if you want moreinformation on this, we've done
podcast episodes, we've hadexperts come in and talk in
other webinars, we've hadattorneys come in.
And if you're going to respondto this episode, well, how do I
do it?
And is this person the W-2?
Our answer is always going to beit depends.
Go call your lawyer.
Here's the thing talking toassociates.
(16:28):
If you be hired by yoursupervisor, look at your
classification very, verycarefully.
Right?
1099 may seem like, oh, that'sI'm free.
That's so wonderful.
I'm 1099.
I can do what I want.
But yeah, Jennifer's alreadyshaking her head.
I mean, the problems with thisare, Jennifer.
SPEAKER_02 (16:52):
We get this so much, so much.
And it's very difficult to takea definitive stance on it,
right?
Because you are going to findpeople on both sides that will
give you plenty of evidence tosupport whichever they want.
So I kind of always tell people,you know, go to the IRS
checklist and answer thosequestions.
(17:12):
That's going to tell you realquick.
Number two, I have takencontracts for 1099 contractors
and dump them into Chat GPT andsaid, is this contract a good
contract for 1099?
And Chat GPT will rattle allkinds of things out.
So, I mean, if you don't know,that's a good starting place.
(17:34):
But I always just ask thisquestion, you know, counselors,
you you make a statement, I'mjust gonna ask you a question.
How can an associate essentiallyreally work as a 1099 contractor
when there has to be oversight?
If somebody has to sign off onyour records, if somebody it has
(17:55):
to review your records, if youhave to authorize for somebody
to be able to look at yourrecords, how are you a
contractor?
Because a contractor worksindependently and I could have
my dog write my notes if Iwanted to.
Give her a pen and trainer, andbecause a contractor can hire
anybody to do anything.
(18:16):
And if I can't hire the workout,that's always kind of my biggest
one.
If I if I cannot hire thatworkout, then I probably gonna
steer clear of that one.
But you know.
SPEAKER_01 (18:25):
Yeah, I mean, if you're working for your
supervisor, they are controllingyour work.
So the idea that your supervisorwould want to hire you as a 1099
contract, again, we're notattorneys.
Take that to Chat GPT, take thatcontract.
It will start with chat and justsay, is this a 1099 contract?
(18:46):
I mean, without, you know, theW-2 classification, nobody's
taken out for your benefits,nobody's looking out for you
with Social Security, all of thethings with 1099, you have to
take out your own tax money, allof the all, then that leaves the
big question (19:03):
who is the records custodian?
Because in Texas, as of thisrecording, if you are an LPC
associate, you can be thecustodian of your own records.
So when that subpoena comes toyour supervisor's practice for
those records, who gets thesubpoena?
Are you on the hook?
Is you practice on the hook?
(19:23):
And and we've talked about thatbefore too.
So again, just please take alook at your contract.
And I hope there aren't peopleout there going, wait, I never
got a contract.
Oh my goodness.
Stop, hit pause, go talk to yoursupervisor who's hired you and
say, Where is my employmentcontract?
(19:44):
Okay.
Employment contract, clinicalcontract, all of these things,
and they don't have to be set instone, but they have to be clear
so that associates, you canagree.
That's one of the things I waslooking at this morning.
You know, a big complaint herein Texas, not a formal complaint
necessarily, but our associateswho feel like the finances, what
(20:09):
they're being charged forsupervision is too high or it
changes.
Well, associates, that startswith that contract.
And if you are interviewing witha supervisor who doesn't have a
contract or who doesn't have inwriting what their fees are and
all the late cancel no-showthings, Jennifer was talking
about it.
Run, you know, hang up thephone, stop the Zoom call, walk
(20:31):
out of the office, whateveryou're doing, stop and get
another supervisor.
There are no limits totechnology.
You can be anywhere and have asupervisor anywhere.
If I'm talking about Texas now,other states, it may be
different.
So please, I'm gonna tell youhow to feel.
Please don't feel like you haveto keep somebody just because
(20:53):
you have walked through the doorand you shook their hand, right?
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (20:58):
You don't owe them and they don't owe you.
Like the relationship has to beof a benefit.
And yeah, absolutely.
If you go in and they don't havetheir documentation in place,
you just say thank you so muchfor your time and you keep
looking.
SPEAKER_01 (21:12):
So, how to stay out of trouble.
Supervisors again, keeplistening.
So I want you associates to lookfor a clear role division.
That means a contract and apolicy and procedures manual.
I want you to have clearlyidentified how much you make,
how much supervision is going tocost, how those records are
(21:35):
going to be kept.
I want clear communication aboutrecords, how you can get your
records.
Another issue with supervisionis in Texas the way it's
written.
If a supervisee asks forsupervision records, supervisor
has to give it in a timelymanner.
Nobody knows what timely is.
(21:56):
So ask your supervisor to definethat.
If I need my records, how can Iget them?
I know when I was supervisingassociates, I made them take the
original of everything.
And I'm the one that kept theelectronic copy.
Every time we left supervision,everybody had a copy of their
records.
And then when we went tovirtual, I didn't do it very
(22:18):
long virtually, but it was thesame thing.
Everybody had a copy of theirrecords.
What am I missing, Jennifer?
SPEAKER_02 (22:24):
I think you covered.
I mean, because we just talkedabout 1099 W 2.
The one thing when you talkabout records and in the
contracts, a lot of people willsay, you know, head of HR, or
especially I see this with a lotof school counselors who are
also fully licensed and they'reproviding both roles in a school
district, they will makesomebody within the school
(22:45):
district their recordscustodian.
And that's fine.
I discourage it because yourassociate is on a timeline and
God forbid something happened toyou and they're close to the end
of their five years.
Well, somebody in anadministrative or HR role or
somewhere, you know, way up highin another building on the other
(23:05):
side of town doesn't understandthe urgency.
So you you never want to assigna records custodian that could
potentially hold up yourassociate getting their records
that they have to have in orderto get full licensure.
So you want to pick somebodythat's going to be pretty quick
and efficient about it becausewe always think, oh, you know,
(23:26):
HR director.
Well, the HR director's got amillion other things going on,
and that's probably not the topof their list.
And you never want yourassociate in a bad spot.
SPEAKER_01 (23:33):
Good point.
Long and short supervisors, thebest way to stay out of trouble
if you know you're going to bein a dual relationship.
And I'm talking to you, smalltown agency owner.
I get that.
You're in a small town, you'vegot to wear two hats.
I've been there.
A lot of supervisors have beenthere.
If you can hire someone tomanage your employees, do that.
(23:58):
I mean, if it's anywhere in yourbudget, just have another person
and stay out of that chain ofcommand.
If it's not possible, then Iwant you to listen to my words.
You look at your supervisees andyou say, okay, for 10 minutes,
we're going to talk aboutadministrative issues.
Ready, set, go.
Okay, we're talking about keys,we're talking about tucking in
(24:20):
shirts, we're talking aboutparking spots, we're talking
about the coffee in the breakroom.
Somebody tries to ask about aclient, you say, no, no, no.
Administrative.
And then when time, 10 minutes,okay, now we're doing clinical
work.
And the clock starts forsupervision when you start the
clinical work.
(24:42):
So, I mean, you should begetting all kinds of creative
juices flowing right now, right?
You can have a weekly staffmeeting that is administrative
and completely out of the realmof clinical.
So I'm trying to help you withthis idea, not just work on
paper, but also how to make sureyou're representing yourself to
your supervisees, either astheir boss or as their clinical
(25:07):
supervisor.
And it's a work in progress,right?
And I hope that we get lots ofcomments on this episode.
It's tricky.
If you're in the Facebook group,Texas Supervisor Coalition, I'd
love to hear you guys talk aboutthis.
It is, it just evolves.
And as long as there are dualrelationships, we'll have some
difficulties.
(25:27):
So start with the contract,start with the policy and
procedures.
Associates, take that stuff andrun it through Chat GPT.
And if there's nothing, ifthere's no contract and no
policy and procedures associate,just hang up the phone.
Just go look someplace else.
All right, that's it.
(25:48):
If you needed more informationabout how to talk, how to speak
up, what are toxic supervisionbehaviors, check out our other
episodes and we will see youlater.
Bye.
Thanks for listening to BadassTherapists Building Practices
That Thrive.
If you're frustrated with lowpay, confusing policies, or lack
(26:12):
of support in your grouppractice, you're not alone.
And you don't have to do this byyourself.
Don't forget to grab today'sfree resource at KateWalker
Training.com/slash bonus.
And if you're ready for thecoaching, CEs, and templates
that actually make privatepractice sustainable, join us
inside the Step It Upmembership.
Until next time, keep building apractice and a career that lets
(26:35):
you thrive on your own terms.
If you love today's episode, besure to leave a five-star
review.
It helps other badass therapistsfind the show and build
practices that thrive.
Big thanks to Ridgely Walker forour original fun facts and
podcast intro, and to CarlGuyanella for editing this
(26:58):
episode and making us soundamazing.
See you next week.
Supervisors, the best way to stay out of trouble
if you know you're going to bein a dual relationship.
And I'm talking to you, smalltown agency owner.
I get that.
You're in a small town, you'vegot to wear two hats.
I've been there.
A lot of supervisors have beenthere.
I want you to listen to mywords.
SPEAKER_00 (00:24):
Welcome to Badest Therapists, building practices
of life.
It's all about working smarter,not harder.
And here's your host, Dr.
Kate Walker.
SPEAKER_01 (00:39):
You want to hear something scary?
If you run a group practice andalso supervise your associates,
you're wearing two hats, bossand clinical supervisor.
And let's be honest, that canget messy and scary fast.
Today, Jennifer and I talk aboutthe systems that make this dual
role clearer, safer, and lessstressful for everyone involved.
(01:02):
And don't miss the mid-roll formy freebie, 10 delegation quick
wins for counselors atKateWalkerTraining.com slash
bonus.
Now, let's get to work.
Hey, I'm Dr.
Kate Walker with Kate WalkerTraining, and this is Jennifer
Murray Fairchild.
(01:23):
And if you don't know us,welcome.
I'm so glad you're here.
We're continuing ourconversation about bad
supervision.
And bad supervision can comefrom a lot of places.
So today we're going to drilldown on this idea of how dual
roles can get you in trouble.
So if you're listening to thisin Texas, what you need to know
(01:46):
here is we're talking about LPCsupervision because dual roles
are permitted.
They just must be managed.
If you're an LMFT in Texas, asof this recording, dual roles
are not permitted.
In social work, I believe dualroles, that's so hard to say,
(02:06):
are also not permitted.
So you may be thinking, well,why am I even listening to this?
What does it mean?
Hey, if you're working for yoursupervisor, your supervisor is
in a dual role.
They are your boss and they areyour clinical supervisor.
So you know what this means fromcounseling, where it, right?
(02:27):
It's prohibited in every mentalhealth arena I'm aware of in
every state that I'm aware of.
You cannot have a dual role withyour client because it's
unethical.
It's not right, right?
Picture, you know, you're goingto counsel someone and then in
an hour they're going to fixyour car, right?
(02:49):
You can't have that dualrelationship and continue to be
very therapeutic, right?
Maybe you wouldn't challengethem in the way they need to be
challenged in counseling becauseyou're afraid they won't fix
your car well or something likethat.
So dual relationships muddy thewaters.
So this podcast isn't going toadvocate for or against dual
(03:15):
relationships and supervision,but as you can tell from the
title, we are going to drilldown on what gets you in
trouble.
And we've seen a lot of stuff onthe internet about problems that
for me personally can be tracedback to the dual role.
And Jennifer, you're going totalk about some things that we
(03:38):
see in the 40-hour training whenfolks are designing their
contract and their supervisionplan.
Uh, because that starts theconversation.
If you plan on hiring yoursupervisee, you've got to lay
the grounds, just like if youwere going to go work anywhere,
you need to have a good jobdescription and a good contract.
(03:59):
So, first things first, we talkabout having a good clinical
contract.
And if you're going to be abusiness owner, have a policy
and procedures manual.
Two very, very different things.
And so, Jennifer, talk aboutwhere we have to correct people
if they're trying to put boththings into the clinical
(04:22):
supervision contract.
SPEAKER_02 (04:24):
Well, a good rule of thumb is if it is something that
I could write you up for at anormal job, then that's probably
something that needs to go intopolicies and procedures.
So you'll find things like, Iexpect my associates to come to
supervision dressed in business,casual.
Well, that's an administrativething.
(04:45):
And while some people havepreferences, clinical
supervision doesn't enter thearena of, you know, regulating
what somebody's wearing.
They'll say things like, youknow, if two supervision
sessions are, if you're late,then I'm going to write you up.
Things that that are that aregoing to draw you in a punitive
(05:09):
nature, that's kind of where ifI if I need to reprimand your
work behaviors, that's going togo into policies and procedures.
If I'm dealing with yourclinical behaviors, that stuff
needs to go into a contract.
You know, what is your lateno-show cancellation policy?
That's a great thing to have inthere because I need to know and
(05:30):
you need to know what's going tohappen if you're late.
And we have a plan to mitigatethat.
So those are kind of some of thebigger ones I see.
I love when they say, you know,you have to wear business casual
supervision.
SPEAKER_01 (05:42):
Or else what?
Yeah.
I mean, and one of the things,if you look at a very
well-researched, very valid,reliable instrument called the
CCSR that Dr.
Gary Lamby developed, you willsee there are criteria on that
instrument that relate to, Iwill just call it like agency
(06:04):
behavior, you know, being ableto get along in a setting, in a
work setting, right?
We're our background, at leastin Texas, clinical mental
health, you know, our roots arein agencies.
And how you behave in your breakroom, associates and
supervisors, can reflect how youact with your clients or in
(06:26):
supervision.
So, you know, being able as asupervisor to say, hey, you've
been late to work, is that aclinical issue or is that an
administrative issue, right?
They're dual roles.
It can become a clinical issuefor sure.
In fact, we have a module onthat in our online 40-hour
(06:46):
training to become a supervisor.
We talk about someone who'schronically late for supervision
or, like Jennifer mentioned,they no show without an
explanation, or, you know, thatneeds to be addressed because
it's really classic level twobehavior when they're kind of
over it.
They're kind of, okay, I don'tknow if I want to do this
anymore.
(07:06):
So as a boss, if they'rechronically late, would you
write them up?
Would you give them a verbalwarning?
Would you say, okay, threestrikes and you're out?
Because here's the problemSupervision is like, I don't
want to call it a marriagebecause you are supposed to
break up after the hours areconcluded, right?
But the idea is to stay togetherand here's the word, remediate.
(07:32):
We're looking to remediatebehaviors so that this person
develops into your colleague.
At work, it's more like, okay,strike one, strike two, strike
three, go find another job.
And the problems that we see,well, this is just one.
You know what?
When you fire them from the jobin Texas, you're still the
(07:55):
supervisor, right?
So it's it's a completelydifferent mechanism that I don't
even want to get into here onhow to terminate supervision if
you are the supervisor.
So this idea of having a policyand procedures manual to
outline, we call it aprogressive discipline.
Well, we don't call it that.
(08:16):
Everybody calls it that.
A progressive discipline plan,right?
I have verbal warning, writtenwrite-up, whatever, you're
fired.
Well, your clinical contract isgoing to talk about how we're
going to evaluate you, thenwe're going to remediate, and
then what comes next so that Ican grow you into my calling.
(08:37):
So, Jennifer, am I hitting it?
Anything you would add to that?
SPEAKER_02 (08:41):
Well, no, you you covered it great.
And the especially like the lateno-show stuff, I think it can be
difficult to separate that oneparticularly because being
punctual and on time and showingup to meetings is a very much
ingrained in our society.
(09:02):
So your natural tendency is tolean towards, I'm going to
punish that.
And you can't.
SPEAKER_01 (09:51):
And I said, Well, she should have asked or talked
to her supervisor, right?
So the conversation is key here.
Now, associates, I want toempower you right now.
You know, we just did an episodeon toxic supervision behaviors.
And we did an episode on how toand when to speak up to your
(10:12):
supervisor.
Advocating for yourself iscrucial here.
And so I hope you're listeningto this.
And if you're thinking, oh mygosh, this sounds like my
supervision situation, have theconversation.
I want to empower you to dothat.
I totally get it.
If it's intimidating, if it'sscary to do so, you know, and
(10:34):
supervisors, if you're listeningto this and you're thinking, I
need to change a couple ofthings, yeah, you better change
a couple of things becausewhat's happening, and I'm not
gonna read the verbiagedirectly, but there are
associates who feel thatsupervisors are being predatory.
So for example, you know, youmess with somebody's money,
(10:55):
there's gonna be a problem.
So if you have put into acontract, hey, supervision, I
will charge you this, or it willcome out of your paycheck like
that, and on and on we go.
And then all of a sudden,supervisee shows up and you're
like, hey, I'm raising my rates.
If you want to continue with me,pony up, right?
(11:17):
Or you don't know how toreinforce no, no, or or a
clawback, you know, uh, with LPCassociates, they're not able to
get paneled as of thisrecording, but you know, their
services can be reimbursed byinsurance.
So if there's a clawback, whatif the supervisor's gonna say,
hey, you're not gonna get paidfor the next couple of weeks
(11:37):
because we had a clawback,you're messing with somebody's
money, and then you're gonna goback and tell your supervisee,
hey, be open with me.
How's it going?
I promise.
I mean, gosh, that reminds me ofmy when my parents like asked me
if you've used weed before whenI was 14.
SPEAKER_02 (11:57):
They're like, be honest with us.
Well, you you did, you made onereally good point, and I forgot
to address it a while ago.
Supervisors forget that this isa temporary relationship, and
the goal is to make thisindividual your colleague.
And if you treated me like crapwhen I was an associate, to all
(12:18):
of a sudden now I'm an LPC andI'm fully licensed and now I'm
worthy and you're gonna be nice.
I don't find that I'm probablygonna have a lot of respect for
you.
And I'm gonna always remember,yeah, that's that supervisor
that was awful to me.
So you prevent the ability tobuild and network and connect
and have great colleagues whenyou supervise from this
(12:40):
hierarchy, punitive, I'm gonnapunish you vantage.
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01 (12:49):
More and more counselors are walking away from
group practices and evenplatforms like Headway because
the systems just don't work.
If you're ready to build yourown support, my free guide, 10
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(13:10):
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bonus.
So, okay, what have we learnedso far?
Associates, there aresituations, at least in Texas,
as of this recording, where youcan work for your supervisor.
(13:31):
Okay, totally legal, totallyokay.
But Jennifer and I want to giveyou things to be aware of and to
look out for.
And supervisors, while you'relistening to this, I want you to
be taking notes, hit pause, goback and listen to it again.
So, number one, have a contract.
Supervisees, look at thatcontract, read that contract.
(13:55):
And if you are also going towork for your supervisor, say,
hey, where's the policy andprocedures manual?
Right.
And some things to look for in apolicy and procedures manual are
who's the records custodian?
What happens if there's aclawback?
What happens if I don't tuck myshirt in?
Right?
All of the things related toyour money, your time, things
(14:18):
that can get written up.
And then ask your supervisor,explain remediation to me.
How do I know if I'm notmastering a skill and you're
gonna remediate me?
And will this affect my job?
The answer should be no, itshouldn't affect your job unless
you do something extremelyterrible, like have sex with
(14:39):
your client or do all thethings.
But Jennifer, what would you addto that?
SPEAKER_02 (14:44):
The one thing that I see more often than not is the I
call it the hour, like holdingyour hours hostage.
Because a lot of supervisorsthink if me, the supervisor, has
any sort of concern about yourclinical abilities, I may not
sign off on your hours.
(15:04):
But what supervisors forget isif I attended supervision and I
saw clients, then thatsupervisor is still liable for
all of those hours.
And the big question is, iswell, you didn't sign off on
them, but you were liable.
And then you enter the wholerealm of, well, not all
(15:26):
supervisors are created equally.
And what if the supervisordecides they don't like me and
they just refuse to sign off onmy hours?
Again, now you're messing withmy money and my ability to get
fully licensed.
And it just, it's just never agood look.
It's never a good look to saythat I could refuse.
That just screams, I'm large andin charge.
SPEAKER_01 (15:47):
Yeah, you I mean, you can't even withhold
someone's paycheck because youdidn't like the way they they
stock the shelves, right?
I mean, you don't mess withpeople's money ever.
I just good rule of thumb.
I want to talk about a littlebit, a tiny bit, 1099 versus
W-2.
(16:07):
Now, if you want moreinformation on this, we've done
podcast episodes, we've hadexperts come in and talk in
other webinars, we've hadattorneys come in.
And if you're going to respondto this episode, well, how do I
do it?
And is this person the W-2?
Our answer is always going to beit depends.
Go call your lawyer.
Here's the thing talking toassociates.
(16:28):
If you be hired by yoursupervisor, look at your
classification very, verycarefully.
Right?
1099 may seem like, oh, that'sI'm free.
That's so wonderful.
I'm 1099.
I can do what I want.
But yeah, Jennifer's alreadyshaking her head.
I mean, the problems with thisare, Jennifer.
SPEAKER_02 (16:52):
We get this so much, so much.
And it's very difficult to takea definitive stance on it,
right?
Because you are going to findpeople on both sides that will
give you plenty of evidence tosupport whichever they want.
So I kind of always tell people,you know, go to the IRS
checklist and answer thosequestions.
(17:12):
That's going to tell you realquick.
Number two, I have takencontracts for 1099 contractors
and dump them into Chat GPT andsaid, is this contract a good
contract for 1099?
And Chat GPT will rattle allkinds of things out.
So, I mean, if you don't know,that's a good starting place.
(17:34):
But I always just ask thisquestion, you know, counselors,
you you make a statement, I'mjust gonna ask you a question.
How can an associate essentiallyreally work as a 1099 contractor
when there has to be oversight?
If somebody has to sign off onyour records, if somebody it has
(17:55):
to review your records, if youhave to authorize for somebody
to be able to look at yourrecords, how are you a
contractor?
Because a contractor worksindependently and I could have
my dog write my notes if Iwanted to.
Give her a pen and trainer, andbecause a contractor can hire
anybody to do anything.
(18:16):
And if I can't hire the workout,that's always kind of my biggest
one.
If I if I cannot hire thatworkout, then I probably gonna
steer clear of that one.
But you know.
SPEAKER_01 (18:25):
Yeah, I mean, if you're working for your
supervisor, they are controllingyour work.
So the idea that your supervisorwould want to hire you as a 1099
contract, again, we're notattorneys.
Take that to Chat GPT, take thatcontract.
It will start with chat and justsay, is this a 1099 contract?
(18:46):
I mean, without, you know, theW-2 classification, nobody's
taken out for your benefits,nobody's looking out for you
with Social Security, all of thethings with 1099, you have to
take out your own tax money, allof the all, then that leaves the
big question (19:03):
who is the records custodian?
Because in Texas, as of thisrecording, if you are an LPC
associate, you can be thecustodian of your own records.
So when that subpoena comes toyour supervisor's practice for
those records, who gets thesubpoena?
Are you on the hook?
Is you practice on the hook?
(19:23):
And and we've talked about thatbefore too.
So again, just please take alook at your contract.
And I hope there aren't peopleout there going, wait, I never
got a contract.
Oh my goodness.
Stop, hit pause, go talk to yoursupervisor who's hired you and
say, Where is my employmentcontract?
(19:44):
Okay.
Employment contract, clinicalcontract, all of these things,
and they don't have to be set instone, but they have to be clear
so that associates, you canagree.
That's one of the things I waslooking at this morning.
You know, a big complaint herein Texas, not a formal complaint
necessarily, but our associateswho feel like the finances, what
(20:09):
they're being charged forsupervision is too high or it
changes.
Well, associates, that startswith that contract.
And if you are interviewing witha supervisor who doesn't have a
contract or who doesn't have inwriting what their fees are and
all the late cancel no-showthings, Jennifer was talking
about it.
Run, you know, hang up thephone, stop the Zoom call, walk
(20:31):
out of the office, whateveryou're doing, stop and get
another supervisor.
There are no limits totechnology.
You can be anywhere and have asupervisor anywhere.
If I'm talking about Texas now,other states, it may be
different.
So please, I'm gonna tell youhow to feel.
Please don't feel like you haveto keep somebody just because
(20:53):
you have walked through the doorand you shook their hand, right?
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (20:58):
You don't owe them and they don't owe you.
Like the relationship has to beof a benefit.
And yeah, absolutely.
If you go in and they don't havetheir documentation in place,
you just say thank you so muchfor your time and you keep
looking.
SPEAKER_01 (21:12):
So, how to stay out of trouble.
Supervisors again, keeplistening.
So I want you associates to lookfor a clear role division.
That means a contract and apolicy and procedures manual.
I want you to have clearlyidentified how much you make,
how much supervision is going tocost, how those records are
(21:35):
going to be kept.
I want clear communication aboutrecords, how you can get your
records.
Another issue with supervisionis in Texas the way it's
written.
If a supervisee asks forsupervision records, supervisor
has to give it in a timelymanner.
Nobody knows what timely is.
(21:56):
So ask your supervisor to definethat.
If I need my records, how can Iget them?
I know when I was supervisingassociates, I made them take the
original of everything.
And I'm the one that kept theelectronic copy.
Every time we left supervision,everybody had a copy of their
records.
And then when we went tovirtual, I didn't do it very
(22:18):
long virtually, but it was thesame thing.
Everybody had a copy of theirrecords.
What am I missing, Jennifer?
SPEAKER_02 (22:24):
I think you covered.
I mean, because we just talkedabout 1099 W 2.
The one thing when you talkabout records and in the
contracts, a lot of people willsay, you know, head of HR, or
especially I see this with a lotof school counselors who are
also fully licensed and they'reproviding both roles in a school
district, they will makesomebody within the school
(22:45):
district their recordscustodian.
And that's fine.
I discourage it because yourassociate is on a timeline and
God forbid something happened toyou and they're close to the end
of their five years.
Well, somebody in anadministrative or HR role or
somewhere, you know, way up highin another building on the other
(23:05):
side of town doesn't understandthe urgency.
So you you never want to assigna records custodian that could
potentially hold up yourassociate getting their records
that they have to have in orderto get full licensure.
So you want to pick somebodythat's going to be pretty quick
and efficient about it becausewe always think, oh, you know,
(23:26):
HR director.
Well, the HR director's got amillion other things going on,
and that's probably not the topof their list.
And you never want yourassociate in a bad spot.
SPEAKER_01 (23:33):
Good point.
Long and short supervisors, thebest way to stay out of trouble
if you know you're going to bein a dual relationship.
And I'm talking to you, smalltown agency owner.
I get that.
You're in a small town, you'vegot to wear two hats.
I've been there.
A lot of supervisors have beenthere.
If you can hire someone tomanage your employees, do that.
(23:58):
I mean, if it's anywhere in yourbudget, just have another person
and stay out of that chain ofcommand.
If it's not possible, then Iwant you to listen to my words.
You look at your supervisees andyou say, okay, for 10 minutes,
we're going to talk aboutadministrative issues.
Ready, set, go.
Okay, we're talking about keys,we're talking about tucking in
(24:20):
shirts, we're talking aboutparking spots, we're talking
about the coffee in the breakroom.
Somebody tries to ask about aclient, you say, no, no, no.
Administrative.
And then when time, 10 minutes,okay, now we're doing clinical
work.
And the clock starts forsupervision when you start the
clinical work.
(24:42):
So, I mean, you should begetting all kinds of creative
juices flowing right now, right?
You can have a weekly staffmeeting that is administrative
and completely out of the realmof clinical.
So I'm trying to help you withthis idea, not just work on
paper, but also how to make sureyou're representing yourself to
your supervisees, either astheir boss or as their clinical
(25:07):
supervisor.
And it's a work in progress,right?
And I hope that we get lots ofcomments on this episode.
It's tricky.
If you're in the Facebook group,Texas Supervisor Coalition, I'd
love to hear you guys talk aboutthis.
It is, it just evolves.
And as long as there are dualrelationships, we'll have some
difficulties.
(25:27):
So start with the contract,start with the policy and
procedures.
Associates, take that stuff andrun it through Chat GPT.
And if there's nothing, ifthere's no contract and no
policy and procedures associate,just hang up the phone.
Just go look someplace else.
All right, that's it.
(25:48):
If you needed more informationabout how to talk, how to speak
up, what are toxic supervisionbehaviors, check out our other
episodes and we will see youlater.
Bye.
Thanks for listening to BadassTherapists Building Practices
That Thrive.
If you're frustrated with lowpay, confusing policies, or lack
(26:12):
of support in your grouppractice, you're not alone.
And you don't have to do this byyourself.
Don't forget to grab today'sfree resource at KateWalker
Training.com/slash bonus.
And if you're ready for thecoaching, CEs, and templates
that actually make privatepractice sustainable, join us
inside the Step It Upmembership.
Until next time, keep building apractice and a career that lets
(26:35):
you thrive on your own terms.
If you love today's episode, besure to leave a five-star
review.
It helps other badass therapistsfind the show and build
practices that thrive.
Big thanks to Ridgely Walker forour original fun facts and
podcast intro, and to CarlGuyanella for editing this
(26:58):
episode and making us soundamazing.
See you next week.
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