May 27, 2025 • 19 mins
Are you trapped in an endless cycle of learning without implementation? For ambitious women, personal development can become a sophisticated form of self-sabotage when we prioritize knowledge acquisition over taking action.
In this revealing conversation, we explore the surprising ways high-achieving women hide behind qualifications instead of putting their wisdom into practice. We trace this pattern back to educational systems that reward perfection and comprehensive preparation—qualities that eventually become barriers to professional advancement. While women have made tremendous strides in education over the past century, many find themselves paralyzed by decision-making and terrified of imperfection in professional settings.
The wisdom shared goes beyond simple advice, offering a crucial distinction between information gathering and true wisdom. As we discuss, knowledge without action is just information—wisdom emerges when you combine learning with lived experience and your unique perspective. This distinction becomes even more crucial in the age of AI, where your implementation skills and human judgment offer your true competitive advantage.
We challenge listeners to embrace "messy first drafts" and to shrink the time between learning something and implementing it. The workplace doesn't demand perfection; it rewards speed of implementation and the confidence to make your work visible. For those who recognize themselves in this pattern, we offer practical strategies to break free, including our burnout archetype quiz to identify if you're a "Self-Help Scholar."
Ready to stop hiding behind more learning and start implementing what you already know? Take one piece of wisdom from this episode and put it into action within 24 hours. Your future self will thank you for valuing progress over perfection.
To view the Transcript from this week's episode, visit our Balance & Beyond Podcast webpage: https://www.balanceinstitute.com/podcast/2025/99
To discover your Burnout Archetype, take our short quiz here! https://www.balanceinstitute.com/burnout-quiz
Thank you for joining us today on the Balance and Beyond Podcast. We're so glad you carved out this time for yourself!
If you’re keen to dive deeper into our world, here are our socials where you can discover more about the toolkit that has helped thousands of women create a life of balance.
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Thanks again for tuning in, and we'll see you next time on the Balance & Beyond Podcast!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jo (00:03):
Welcome to Balance and Beyond, the podcast for
ambitious women who refuse toaccept burnout as the price of
success.
Here we're committed toempowering you with the tools
and strategies you need toachieve true balance, where your
career, relationships andhealth all thrive and where you
have the power to define successon your terms.
I honor the space you'vecreated for yourself today, so
(00:25):
let's take a breath and diveright in.
If you've ever Googled, am Iburnt out at 3 am but felt like
none of the answers, really fit.
This is for you, becausepersonal growth, professional
development for high-achachieving women can actually
(00:46):
become the most sophisticatedform of self-sabotage.
Today I'm joined by thewonderful Sabina, and Sabina
juicy topic, isn't it?
Sabina (00:56):
Oh, isn't it just?
I know this pattern very well,both within myself, my own
journey, and with so many of theclients that I get to work with
.
It's yeah, it's fascinating.
Jo (01:12):
And so let's really name this pattern.
What is the pattern that we seewhen people are spending a lot
of investing a lot of time,energy and money in continual
learning?
Sabina (01:24):
Yes, Well, I would like to zoom out and put this into
context of women in educationover the last 100 years.
If you think back to, say, 100years ago, I'm talking about
industrialised, you know Westernsociety we didn't really have
(01:46):
access to the same opportunitiesas men in terms of education,
in terms of having your own bankaccount.
But when we're talking abouteducation and self-help, we've
made so much progress, and Ithink I've read somewhere that
over I think it's over 60% ofpostgrad master's degrees are
(02:13):
now taken by women, and I thinkwomen are actually overtaking
men in undergrads as well.
This is in the Western world,so it's phenomenal that women
are now having theseopportunities and seizing it by
the reins.
However, what we're talkingabout in the context here in
(02:33):
this episode, is that where doesit become a hindrance, where
does it become a self-sabotagemechanism to stop you from
actually achieving what it isthat you want to do, by perhaps
hiding behind anotherqualification or thinking that
you have to get anothercertification or some more
(02:54):
letters after your name?
And it's this fine balance,isn't it?
Yeah?
Jo (03:00):
Yeah, absolutely.
If I had a dollar for everywoman that said if I just had an
MBA, then I'll be moreconfident.
And we know that it's not theMBA that actually gives you the
confidence.
It's the person or the identitythat you now believe you have
and the worth you now believeyou have because of some letters
(03:21):
after your name.
So I think what's, I guess, animportant caveat here is that
we're not saying that educationis bad.
As you said, education has beena really important part of that
.
Pretty much all of our team.
We are constantly looking toeducate ourselves and grow.
And what can we learn?
We've got this insatiablecuriosity.
However, what we see is thatwomen hide behind more
(03:46):
qualifications, more doing, andwhat they're missing is the
actual implementation ofwhatever they've learned,
because that's a whole differentskill set, isn't it, Sabina?
It's not just the learning.
We can learn things, we canabsorb them, but putting them
into practice can actually beharder.
That's right.
Sabina (04:05):
So there's a difference between information gathering,
stockpiling and consuminginformation and credentials and
actually putting them intoaction, because it's not the
qualification or the certificatethat matters, it's what does
that allow me to do.
(04:29):
Matters, it's what does thatallow me to do.
And the reality is nowadays weare moving at such a fast pace
that you might spend three yearsstudying something and then in
another two years it's beensuperseded by something else.
Again, I'm not saying we shouldnot be studying, but if we're
hanging our hat and our worthand our value and our
contribution on our scholarlyachievements or leaning so
(04:52):
heavily on them, you're sort ofmissing a trick.
It's knowledge without actionis really just information,
information, and so the key isyou want to act on the
information that you arelearning, but you also want to
combine it with your own lifeexperience, and that's what's
(05:14):
wisdom.
And people can tell when youare showing up and sharing your
expertise from a place ofsharing your expertise, from a
place of academic, conceptual, aconceptual place, or where,
when it's actually embodiedlived experience.
And I think that that's a trickthat women are sometimes
(05:36):
missing though, those women wholet's call them a self-help,
self-help junkie or aqualification junkie.
Jo (05:46):
Yeah, I still remember a very defining moment in my
university.
I was doing my master's and Iwas in a marketing master's of
marketing and the teacher, whohad only ever been an academic,
was telling us how to run acampaign and I had been working.
And I said to him no, no, no,no, no, that's not how it works.
(06:06):
And he said yes, it is.
And I said I'm working in a bigglobal insurance company.
I would never get any of thispast risk and that's not
actually going to work.
And he couldn't actually answerthe question because he was
talking from a.
Here's the theory and I had a.
I've tried to put that theory,get the theory, got it.
(06:27):
I've put it in a real lifeapplication and it actually
doesn't work in theory.
You have to do this to it andyou have to do that and you have
to do that.
And I ended up because I was theonly one in the class who had a
proper job, you would say, inthe field that we were doing the
masters in.
I ended up taking over theclass and teaching everybody
about yep, here are the concepts, great concepts.
(06:52):
Here is my experience of howthat translates in real life.
And then it turns out.
There was one other person whowe became good friends.
She was also working in adifferent sector and she said
yeah, yep, that's how it worksin Joe, this is how it works in
mine.
So, to your point, this iswhere we can take the knowledge.
But when we only keep thinkingthat the answer is more
knowledge, more knowledge, moreknowledge, learn more, learn
more, and don't actually takethe time to put them in and get
(07:12):
that beautiful sense of wisdom,we are completely missing a
competitive advantage.
Sabina (07:19):
That's exactly right, and I sometimes call this
designing at the whiteboard.
So you've got to learn, you'vegot to do your due diligence
right, but when you are perhapsgetting stuck in this continual
loop of over-preparing andtheorizing and imagining
outcomes A, b, c, d et cetera,hypothesizing it's called
(07:42):
designing at the whiteboard.
What is really needed is totake that knowledge and data and
learning and start implementingand getting these feedback
loops.
So quicker and quicker feedbackloops are needed to be able to
make progress.
And we're talking about youknow.
Are you someone that feels likeyou're just busy, busy, busy
(08:05):
spinning your wheels but neveractually getting seen or making
progress?
Well, this is one of the clues.
Are you taking what you knowand implementing it, and even
making mistakes?
But the point is you're stilllearning by implementing.
Jo (08:21):
We often see perfectionism come into play here, don't we
when it's?
I've learned it, but until Iknow how to do it perfectly, I'm
not going to actually put it inplace.
So we have these crazy highexpectations of ourselves of how
it has to be.
We won't tolerate failurebecause we're afraid of that.
So we believe, and we see thishappen in corporate all the time
(08:42):
.
Well, let me just get moreinformation.
More information will help memake the decision.
More information will reduce mychance of failure.
But when the good old 80-20rule applies, probably 20% of
the information or knowledge orgrowth that you need is you know
.
That's what's going to comevery, very quickly.
So it's all about how do I justget what's the most information
?
And if I actually go andimplement that, that's going to
(09:05):
drive real change.
Cause I know many peoplepersonally who say they want to
change.
They tell everyone they want tochange.
They're the most knowledgeableabout everything and they are
still the same as where theywere.
Sabina (09:19):
They just can't do it, and this is not to shame anyone,
but again I want to pull, zoomout and look at well, what are
we taught in education?
Let's look at how girls learnin education, and we know that
boys generally I'm stereotypinga little bit but they learn
differently.
They have different learningstyles.
Each individual has a differentlearning style.
(09:40):
But how are we rewarded withinthe education system?
You've got an A, you've got agold star.
You know how many people do weknow in our world that say they
just want a pass mark, butactually they're secretly
looking for a high distinction,or you know, I've been guilty of
that as well.
Right, but we are taught withinthe education system.
(10:04):
Reward and merit comes fromgetting the highest perfect
grade possible.
You suddenly then come out ofthe system and go into the
workplace and into the widerworld and what we've been
conditioned to see as success,the best grade possible or
perfection suddenly it doesn'ttranslate, or it gets you to a
(10:25):
certain point in your career,and then it's, then it's
actually not helping.
And then you're trying evenharder to be perfect, still not
getting the results.
And then you're like I don't, Idon't know what to do anymore.
And it's not your fault.
We've been conditioned to begood girls and to you know,
(10:46):
appease or get the recognition,shall we say, of our teachers or
lecturers.
We're always looking for thatvalidation, and what we actually
need to be doing in theworkforce and in life is be
learning how to challenge andinfluence.
So take what you need to, butlearn to execute, challenge and
(11:11):
influence.
Jo (11:14):
And that can be uncomfortable for people.
Right, it's easier to stay inthe learning loop that confront
I might make a mistake or I'mgoing to have to confront
someone I'm going to have tostep into conflict.
I have to make a decision andback myself, even without all
the information, knowing thatit's probably not perfect, and
that is really hard for us.
(11:34):
We've often not beenconditioned to sit in that place
.
It feels very foreign to mostwomen.
We start pushing them to do itinside our programs, Like what?
You want me to pick one?
Which one should I pick?
Just damn well, pick one.
But what if I picked the wrongone?
Just pick one.
And they literally can't pickone from six.
They're paralyzed withindecision because what if I get
(11:54):
it wrong?
And what if I regret my choice?
And like, wow, okay, this isthe pattern that we see.
You can't just pick one in anyarea of life.
Right, We've literally had thissituation.
I give you six options, pickone.
Oh, can you tell me more abouteach one?
No, just pick one.
So this is this pattern, againand again.
Sabina (12:19):
Yeah, absolutely.
And this, I think, also tiesinto something else which is
really relevant to women thisidea of being visible or not
bragging too much.
So again, at school, it's getyour head down, be a good girl,
get the good marks, get a pat onthe back and then move on to
the next thing.
Girl, get the good marks, get apat on the back and then move
(12:40):
on to the next thing.
And one thing that we likesaying don't we is get a messy
first draft in.
It's good enough.
You know, done is better thanperfect.
And so, again, when you'retranslating this into real life,
beyond the world of academia,is do good work and make it
visible.
That's what's required.
(13:00):
That's the step change.
Not do good work and keeptinkering with it in the
background until you can'tpossibly finesse anything else
and then launch it or show it toyour manager or your team.
Launch it or show it to yourmanager or your team.
(13:22):
No, do good enough.
I can hear people cringing.
What are you talking about,sabina?
I can't do that.
And and you know that withinreasons certain certain
professions.
You know lawyers, accountants.
I know you're going to be goingwell, you don't know what
you're talking about, but,generally speaking, what if you
flipped it to do good work andmake it visible, so that you are
demonstrating your progress andvalue and not trying no one is
(13:44):
looking for you to demonstrateperfection.
I'm sorry, newsflash, that'snot what your employer wants.
Your employer wants speed ofimplementation and the ability
to be able to back yourself andcollaborate with other people.
Jo (14:00):
And I'm sure most employers and even most women, once they
learn how to do this, wouldrather not do an MBA and
actually do something that'sgoing to drive change.
We've had people that have cometo us and, yes, they've done
some work with us, but that'sbeen over, say 12 weeks, and
they've gone.
Oh my God, I did an MBA.
That was three years and I gotmore out of the 12 weeks than I
(14:23):
did in three years, because thatwas just so much learning and
no integration, noimplementation, no actual boots
on the ground.
Instead of saying, how do I, ifI'm going to learn, I want to
close the loop here.
We often talk about shrinkingthe amount of time between when
you learn something and when youimplement it, so the faster you
can bring that loop.
(14:44):
Not learn about it for a yearand then maybe in one more year
when it's perfect, try it, learnit within 20 minutes, give it a
shot, give it a crack.
You're going to stuff it up,that's okay, but the only way is
to practice.
Sabina (14:58):
Yeah, that's the irony, isn't it?
Unless you get it out there andget some feedback, you're not
going to be able to finesse it,so it's going to take you longer
to be perfect.
Just something else that yousaid there, jo.
Another trap with the personwho always wants to be doing
more qualifications or self-help, is that's absorbing from your
(15:20):
external, looking to an outsideauthority, shall we say, and
being that almost likedeferential Yep, you're the
authority, I'm going to take iton board, and then I'm going to
follow in your footsteps.
And again, that's the stepchange.
You need to be able to absorbwhat's needed, but then almost
(15:43):
alchemize it within yourself andthen share that knowledge with
your intuition, with your flavor, with your experience, and then
put it out.
And that is a very importantskill in the age of AI, because
that's what brings your uniqueperspective.
(16:04):
It is mind-blowing mind-blowingwhat AI can now speak and
seemingly think.
However, you still have tobring your human and your unique
flavor, and so if you aresimply absorbing rote from
external sources, you are goingto make yourself defunct.
(16:27):
You've got to run it throughyour own internal system and
make it yours, but alsoimplement it and make it public
and visible.
Jo (16:39):
Yeah, brilliant call out on AI, because this is one of the
biggest trends, I think,potentially of our generation in
terms of how work is done, thespeed of output.
And if we don't own thathumanity and again, all the
knowledge, people now can go anddo a three-year MBA, or they
can ask ChatG, gpt, and it willspit out just as good answer.
So the question of how do I getspeed from this, how do I make
(17:03):
this wisdom, how do I implementit and bring my human to it, is
going to be a really, really bigcompetitive advantage if you
want to rise, if you want to besomeone who's able to reach your
potential and see what'spossible from a career
perspective or in life moregenerally.
So, sabina, one last keytakeaway for somebody who's
(17:23):
there maybe pondering doing anMBA or pondering I need to
listen to more and more podcasts.
Granted, this is a podcast, butthis is a better one.
What do they need?
What's one takeaway they can do?
Actually, how about we try this?
They listen to a podcast rightnow.
What do we want them to do withsome information they've got
from this podcast, so thisdoesn't just become one more
piece of information theyconsume?
Sabina (17:44):
Yes.
So maybe think about some ofthe concepts that we shared.
Pick something that might berelevant to you.
So, are you someone whooverprepares?
Is there something that youcould ship off your desk more
quickly?
Are you someone that defers toexternal authorities more than
(18:04):
trusting your own gut?
Are you someone who doesn'tlike to put out messy first
drafts?
Whatever it is, if somethinghas struck a chord with you in
what we've shared today, pickone thing and see how you can
start to make a change and applyit in the next 24 hours in your
(18:29):
life, whether it's at home, atwork.
Maybe it's something you'restudying.
If you're studying, how can youabsorb something and then teach
a concept to someone?
Actually speak it out loud intothe world.
So play with these ideas andpick something to do.
Jo (18:47):
I love it, Get into action.
This is what we want to do.
And if you are wondering, do Ihave this pattern?
You might already know theanswer, but you are welcome.
You are invited to take ourburnout archetype quiz.
We'll put the links in the shownotes.
But find out if you are aself-help scholar which is one
(19:07):
of our key burnout archetypes,one of the ways that women burn
out and if you find out you are,you're going to get access to
your own secret podcast episode,designed just for you.
If you're not a self-helpscholar, there are five others.
So take the quiz, check out thelinks and we'll see what you
are.
Thanks for joining me, SabinaTay.
A great topic and lookingforward to some implementation
(19:30):
from our listeners.
Thanks for joining us today onthe Balance and Beyond podcast.
We're so glad you carved outthis time for yourself.
If you enjoyed this episode,please share it with a friend
who might need to hear thistoday.
And if you're feeling extragenerous, leaving us a review on
your podcast platform of choicewould mean the world to us.
If you're keen to dive deeperinto our world, visit
(19:53):
balanceinstitutecom to discovermore about the toolkit that has
helped thousands of women avoidburnout and create a life of
balance and beyond.
Thanks again for tuning in andwe'll see you next time on the
Balance and Beyond podcast.
Welcome to Balance and Beyond, the podcast for
ambitious women who refuse toaccept burnout as the price of
success.
Here we're committed toempowering you with the tools
and strategies you need toachieve true balance, where your
career, relationships andhealth all thrive and where you
have the power to define successon your terms.
I honor the space you'vecreated for yourself today, so
(00:25):
let's take a breath and diveright in.
If you've ever Googled, am Iburnt out at 3 am but felt like
none of the answers, really fit.
This is for you, becausepersonal growth, professional
development for high-achachieving women can actually
(00:46):
become the most sophisticatedform of self-sabotage.
Today I'm joined by thewonderful Sabina, and Sabina
juicy topic, isn't it?
Sabina (00:56):
Oh, isn't it just?
I know this pattern very well,both within myself, my own
journey, and with so many of theclients that I get to work with
.
It's yeah, it's fascinating.
Jo (01:12):
And so let's really name this pattern.
What is the pattern that we seewhen people are spending a lot
of investing a lot of time,energy and money in continual
learning?
Sabina (01:24):
Yes, Well, I would like to zoom out and put this into
context of women in educationover the last 100 years.
If you think back to, say, 100years ago, I'm talking about
industrialised, you know Westernsociety we didn't really have
(01:46):
access to the same opportunitiesas men in terms of education,
in terms of having your own bankaccount.
But when we're talking abouteducation and self-help, we've
made so much progress, and Ithink I've read somewhere that
over I think it's over 60% ofpostgrad master's degrees are
(02:13):
now taken by women, and I thinkwomen are actually overtaking
men in undergrads as well.
This is in the Western world,so it's phenomenal that women
are now having theseopportunities and seizing it by
the reins.
However, what we're talkingabout in the context here in
(02:33):
this episode, is that where doesit become a hindrance, where
does it become a self-sabotagemechanism to stop you from
actually achieving what it isthat you want to do, by perhaps
hiding behind anotherqualification or thinking that
you have to get anothercertification or some more
(02:54):
letters after your name?
And it's this fine balance,isn't it?
Yeah?
Jo (03:00):
Yeah, absolutely.
If I had a dollar for everywoman that said if I just had an
MBA, then I'll be moreconfident.
And we know that it's not theMBA that actually gives you the
confidence.
It's the person or the identitythat you now believe you have
and the worth you now believeyou have because of some letters
(03:21):
after your name.
So I think what's, I guess, animportant caveat here is that
we're not saying that educationis bad.
As you said, education has beena really important part of that
.
Pretty much all of our team.
We are constantly looking toeducate ourselves and grow.
And what can we learn?
We've got this insatiablecuriosity.
However, what we see is thatwomen hide behind more
(03:46):
qualifications, more doing, andwhat they're missing is the
actual implementation ofwhatever they've learned,
because that's a whole differentskill set, isn't it, Sabina?
It's not just the learning.
We can learn things, we canabsorb them, but putting them
into practice can actually beharder.
That's right.
Sabina (04:05):
So there's a difference between information gathering,
stockpiling and consuminginformation and credentials and
actually putting them intoaction, because it's not the
qualification or the certificatethat matters, it's what does
that allow me to do.
(04:29):
Matters, it's what does thatallow me to do.
And the reality is nowadays weare moving at such a fast pace
that you might spend three yearsstudying something and then in
another two years it's beensuperseded by something else.
Again, I'm not saying we shouldnot be studying, but if we're
hanging our hat and our worthand our value and our
contribution on our scholarlyachievements or leaning so
(04:52):
heavily on them, you're sort ofmissing a trick.
It's knowledge without actionis really just information,
information, and so the key isyou want to act on the
information that you arelearning, but you also want to
combine it with your own lifeexperience, and that's what's
(05:14):
wisdom.
And people can tell when youare showing up and sharing your
expertise from a place ofsharing your expertise, from a
place of academic, conceptual, aconceptual place, or where,
when it's actually embodiedlived experience.
And I think that that's a trickthat women are sometimes
(05:36):
missing though, those women wholet's call them a self-help,
self-help junkie or aqualification junkie.
Jo (05:46):
Yeah, I still remember a very defining moment in my
university.
I was doing my master's and Iwas in a marketing master's of
marketing and the teacher, whohad only ever been an academic,
was telling us how to run acampaign and I had been working.
And I said to him no, no, no,no, no, that's not how it works.
(06:06):
And he said yes, it is.
And I said I'm working in a bigglobal insurance company.
I would never get any of thispast risk and that's not
actually going to work.
And he couldn't actually answerthe question because he was
talking from a.
Here's the theory and I had a.
I've tried to put that theory,get the theory, got it.
(06:27):
I've put it in a real lifeapplication and it actually
doesn't work in theory.
You have to do this to it andyou have to do that and you have
to do that.
And I ended up because I was theonly one in the class who had a
proper job, you would say, inthe field that we were doing the
masters in.
I ended up taking over theclass and teaching everybody
about yep, here are the concepts, great concepts.
(06:52):
Here is my experience of howthat translates in real life.
And then it turns out.
There was one other person whowe became good friends.
She was also working in adifferent sector and she said
yeah, yep, that's how it worksin Joe, this is how it works in
mine.
So, to your point, this iswhere we can take the knowledge.
But when we only keep thinkingthat the answer is more
knowledge, more knowledge, moreknowledge, learn more, learn
more, and don't actually takethe time to put them in and get
(07:12):
that beautiful sense of wisdom,we are completely missing a
competitive advantage.
Sabina (07:19):
That's exactly right, and I sometimes call this
designing at the whiteboard.
So you've got to learn, you'vegot to do your due diligence
right, but when you are perhapsgetting stuck in this continual
loop of over-preparing andtheorizing and imagining
outcomes A, b, c, d et cetera,hypothesizing it's called
(07:42):
designing at the whiteboard.
What is really needed is totake that knowledge and data and
learning and start implementingand getting these feedback
loops.
So quicker and quicker feedbackloops are needed to be able to
make progress.
And we're talking about youknow.
Are you someone that feels likeyou're just busy, busy, busy
(08:05):
spinning your wheels but neveractually getting seen or making
progress?
Well, this is one of the clues.
Are you taking what you knowand implementing it, and even
making mistakes?
But the point is you're stilllearning by implementing.
Jo (08:21):
We often see perfectionism come into play here, don't we
when it's?
I've learned it, but until Iknow how to do it perfectly, I'm
not going to actually put it inplace.
So we have these crazy highexpectations of ourselves of how
it has to be.
We won't tolerate failurebecause we're afraid of that.
So we believe, and we see thishappen in corporate all the time
(08:42):
.
Well, let me just get moreinformation.
More information will help memake the decision.
More information will reduce mychance of failure.
But when the good old 80-20rule applies, probably 20% of
the information or knowledge orgrowth that you need is you know
.
That's what's going to comevery, very quickly.
So it's all about how do I justget what's the most information
?
And if I actually go andimplement that, that's going to
(09:05):
drive real change.
Cause I know many peoplepersonally who say they want to
change.
They tell everyone they want tochange.
They're the most knowledgeableabout everything and they are
still the same as where theywere.
Sabina (09:19):
They just can't do it, and this is not to shame anyone,
but again I want to pull, zoomout and look at well, what are
we taught in education?
Let's look at how girls learnin education, and we know that
boys generally I'm stereotypinga little bit but they learn
differently.
They have different learningstyles.
Each individual has a differentlearning style.
(09:40):
But how are we rewarded withinthe education system?
You've got an A, you've got agold star.
You know how many people do weknow in our world that say they
just want a pass mark, butactually they're secretly
looking for a high distinction,or you know, I've been guilty of
that as well.
Right, but we are taught withinthe education system.
(10:04):
Reward and merit comes fromgetting the highest perfect
grade possible.
You suddenly then come out ofthe system and go into the
workplace and into the widerworld and what we've been
conditioned to see as success,the best grade possible or
perfection suddenly it doesn'ttranslate, or it gets you to a
(10:25):
certain point in your career,and then it's, then it's
actually not helping.
And then you're trying evenharder to be perfect, still not
getting the results.
And then you're like I don't, Idon't know what to do anymore.
And it's not your fault.
We've been conditioned to begood girls and to you know,
(10:46):
appease or get the recognition,shall we say, of our teachers or
lecturers.
We're always looking for thatvalidation, and what we actually
need to be doing in theworkforce and in life is be
learning how to challenge andinfluence.
So take what you need to, butlearn to execute, challenge and
(11:11):
influence.
Jo (11:14):
And that can be uncomfortable for people.
Right, it's easier to stay inthe learning loop that confront
I might make a mistake or I'mgoing to have to confront
someone I'm going to have tostep into conflict.
I have to make a decision andback myself, even without all
the information, knowing thatit's probably not perfect, and
that is really hard for us.
(11:34):
We've often not beenconditioned to sit in that place
.
It feels very foreign to mostwomen.
We start pushing them to do itinside our programs, Like what?
You want me to pick one?
Which one should I pick?
Just damn well, pick one.
But what if I picked the wrongone?
Just pick one.
And they literally can't pickone from six.
They're paralyzed withindecision because what if I get
(11:54):
it wrong?
And what if I regret my choice?
And like, wow, okay, this isthe pattern that we see.
You can't just pick one in anyarea of life.
Right, We've literally had thissituation.
I give you six options, pickone.
Oh, can you tell me more abouteach one?
No, just pick one.
So this is this pattern, againand again.
Sabina (12:19):
Yeah, absolutely.
And this, I think, also tiesinto something else which is
really relevant to women thisidea of being visible or not
bragging too much.
So again, at school, it's getyour head down, be a good girl,
get the good marks, get a pat onthe back and then move on to
the next thing.
Girl, get the good marks, get apat on the back and then move
(12:40):
on to the next thing.
And one thing that we likesaying don't we is get a messy
first draft in.
It's good enough.
You know, done is better thanperfect.
And so, again, when you'retranslating this into real life,
beyond the world of academia,is do good work and make it
visible.
That's what's required.
(13:00):
That's the step change.
Not do good work and keeptinkering with it in the
background until you can'tpossibly finesse anything else
and then launch it or show it toyour manager or your team.
Launch it or show it to yourmanager or your team.
(13:22):
No, do good enough.
I can hear people cringing.
What are you talking about,sabina?
I can't do that.
And and you know that withinreasons certain certain
professions.
You know lawyers, accountants.
I know you're going to be goingwell, you don't know what
you're talking about, but,generally speaking, what if you
flipped it to do good work andmake it visible, so that you are
demonstrating your progress andvalue and not trying no one is
(13:44):
looking for you to demonstrateperfection.
I'm sorry, newsflash, that'snot what your employer wants.
Your employer wants speed ofimplementation and the ability
to be able to back yourself andcollaborate with other people.
Jo (14:00):
And I'm sure most employers and even most women, once they
learn how to do this, wouldrather not do an MBA and
actually do something that'sgoing to drive change.
We've had people that have cometo us and, yes, they've done
some work with us, but that'sbeen over, say 12 weeks, and
they've gone.
Oh my God, I did an MBA.
That was three years and I gotmore out of the 12 weeks than I
(14:23):
did in three years, because thatwas just so much learning and
no integration, noimplementation, no actual boots
on the ground.
Instead of saying, how do I, ifI'm going to learn, I want to
close the loop here.
We often talk about shrinkingthe amount of time between when
you learn something and when youimplement it, so the faster you
can bring that loop.
(14:44):
Not learn about it for a yearand then maybe in one more year
when it's perfect, try it, learnit within 20 minutes, give it a
shot, give it a crack.
You're going to stuff it up,that's okay, but the only way is
to practice.
Sabina (14:58):
Yeah, that's the irony, isn't it?
Unless you get it out there andget some feedback, you're not
going to be able to finesse it,so it's going to take you longer
to be perfect.
Just something else that yousaid there, jo.
Another trap with the personwho always wants to be doing
more qualifications or self-help, is that's absorbing from your
(15:20):
external, looking to an outsideauthority, shall we say, and
being that almost likedeferential Yep, you're the
authority, I'm going to take iton board, and then I'm going to
follow in your footsteps.
And again, that's the stepchange.
You need to be able to absorbwhat's needed, but then almost
(15:43):
alchemize it within yourself andthen share that knowledge with
your intuition, with your flavor, with your experience, and then
put it out.
And that is a very importantskill in the age of AI, because
that's what brings your uniqueperspective.
(16:04):
It is mind-blowing mind-blowingwhat AI can now speak and
seemingly think.
However, you still have tobring your human and your unique
flavor, and so if you aresimply absorbing rote from
external sources, you are goingto make yourself defunct.
(16:27):
You've got to run it throughyour own internal system and
make it yours, but alsoimplement it and make it public
and visible.
Jo (16:39):
Yeah, brilliant call out on AI, because this is one of the
biggest trends, I think,potentially of our generation in
terms of how work is done, thespeed of output.
And if we don't own thathumanity and again, all the
knowledge, people now can go anddo a three-year MBA, or they
can ask ChatG, gpt, and it willspit out just as good answer.
So the question of how do I getspeed from this, how do I make
(17:03):
this wisdom, how do I implementit and bring my human to it, is
going to be a really, really bigcompetitive advantage if you
want to rise, if you want to besomeone who's able to reach your
potential and see what'spossible from a career
perspective or in life moregenerally.
So, sabina, one last keytakeaway for somebody who's
(17:23):
there maybe pondering doing anMBA or pondering I need to
listen to more and more podcasts.
Granted, this is a podcast, butthis is a better one.
What do they need?
What's one takeaway they can do?
Actually, how about we try this?
They listen to a podcast rightnow.
What do we want them to do withsome information they've got
from this podcast, so thisdoesn't just become one more
piece of information theyconsume?
Sabina (17:44):
Yes.
So maybe think about some ofthe concepts that we shared.
Pick something that might berelevant to you.
So, are you someone whooverprepares?
Is there something that youcould ship off your desk more
quickly?
Are you someone that defers toexternal authorities more than
(18:04):
trusting your own gut?
Are you someone who doesn'tlike to put out messy first
drafts?
Whatever it is, if somethinghas struck a chord with you in
what we've shared today, pickone thing and see how you can
start to make a change and applyit in the next 24 hours in your
(18:29):
life, whether it's at home, atwork.
Maybe it's something you'restudying.
If you're studying, how can youabsorb something and then teach
a concept to someone?
Actually speak it out loud intothe world.
So play with these ideas andpick something to do.
Jo (18:47):
I love it, Get into action.
This is what we want to do.
And if you are wondering, do Ihave this pattern?
You might already know theanswer, but you are welcome.
You are invited to take ourburnout archetype quiz.
We'll put the links in the shownotes.
But find out if you are aself-help scholar which is one
(19:07):
of our key burnout archetypes,one of the ways that women burn
out and if you find out you are,you're going to get access to
your own secret podcast episode,designed just for you.
If you're not a self-helpscholar, there are five others.
So take the quiz, check out thelinks and we'll see what you
are.
Thanks for joining me, SabinaTay.
A great topic and lookingforward to some implementation
(19:30):
from our listeners.
Thanks for joining us today onthe Balance and Beyond podcast.
We're so glad you carved outthis time for yourself.
If you enjoyed this episode,please share it with a friend
who might need to hear thistoday.
And if you're feeling extragenerous, leaving us a review on
your podcast platform of choicewould mean the world to us.
If you're keen to dive deeperinto our world, visit
(19:53):
balanceinstitutecom to discovermore about the toolkit that has
helped thousands of women avoidburnout and create a life of
balance and beyond.
Thanks again for tuning in andwe'll see you next time on the
Balance and Beyond podcast.
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