April 22, 2024 • 33 mins
In this episode, esteemed psychologist Dr. Marie-Helene Pelletier joins us to share invaluable insights on preventing burnout and fostering resilience.
Drawing from her wealth of experience, Dr. Pelletier offers actionable strategies tailored to high-performing professionals. In an era characterized by incessant communication and escalating workloads fueled by technology, Dr. Pelletier highlights the importance of strategic resilience-building.
Learn how daily self-monitoring of energy levels can serve as a powerful early warning system, enabling individuals to detect burnout before it spirals into exhaustion and cynicism.
Website: Mark Williams
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Check out Mark's Book: Lead, Don't Manage: 12 Lessons in Creating a Leadership Culture Based on Core Values
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Mark Williams (00:07):
You're listening to Balance, Not Burnout, a
podcast helping leaders rethinkthe speed of their business. And
I'm your host Mark Williams.
Join me as I explore the powerof a more intentional, balanced
approach to leadership. Thanksfor listening.
Marie-Helene Pelletier (00:25):
Hey, everybody, welcome to Balance,
Not Burnout Season Two. Today,Episode Six, we're going to talk
a little bit about a lot moreabout burnout. So sometimes
burnout creeps into our lives,but we can work ahead to make
sure it doesn't happen. Today,I'd like to introduce Dr.
Marie-Helene Pelletier. She's apsychologist with a systems mind
(00:47):
and has both a PhD and an MBA.
She has over 20 years ofexperience as a practicing
psychologist and as a seniorleader in the corporate
insurance, governance andhealthcare sectors. And he has
unique talents is bringingtogether workplace and
psychology. And she's really aspecialist with burnout. She
even has her own book. So Dr.
Marie, welcome. And you can callme an age. Thank you, Mark. It's
(01:10):
an absolute pleasure to be herewith you. So I'd love to know
what got you interested inburnout and a little bit about
your background and how youended up doing what you're
doing? Yes. By chance, you know,early in my career, me and my
now husband moved in northernQuebec as small remote area. And
(01:31):
early in my career, I had thechance because I was there to
work in many different areas asa early psychologist, and one of
them was employee and FamilyAssistance Programs. And there,
and that's now quite a few yearsago, I could see how if people
were able to access resourcesearly, they could truly change
(01:53):
the course of where otherwisethings would have gone. So the
impact of being able to bepreventative. And so that's what
got me got me there, then havinglived in northern, I decided to
do my PhD research on at thetime what was called telehealth,
which was providing services viavideoconferencing that was
considered pre embryonic at thetime. And then that required a
(02:15):
lot of management. So I decidedto study management.
And with these tools, thencontinued with my career.
Mark Williams (02:24):
So I, normally I started the podcast, I'm going
to insert it here. Because wetalk about burnout, I'd love to
know, on a personal level,assume it's a Saturday or Sunday
morning, and you have noresponsibilities. I'd love to
know what a perfect Saturdaymorning is for you. And with
whom and what you would share itwith.
Marie-Helene Pelletier (02:45):
Oh, well, it also will depend on
what else has happened in theweek. But an example of what
that could look like. I tend towake up very early before anyone
else is awake. So that's a timewhere I usually like to go for
my physical exercise outside,ideally, either in the nature or
(03:07):
just outside. Sometimes I'llhave time to also do a little
yoga, little meditation beforeand my little sometimes it's
four minutes, but it's acombination I love, then there
will probably be time withfamily and friends during that
they ideally unscheduled,because the rest of my time
tends to be very scheduled. Yes,I would agree makes it ideal.
Mark Williams (03:30):
So it's interesting what you do. i It's
you're mixing both the corporateworld and psychology which I
find super interesting. From myperspective, we've done that a
little bit with salespeople.
We've done training seminars onthe psychology of where to sit
at a sales meeting or bodylanguage, for example, or
reading people's. how peoplemake decisions, right? Always
(03:54):
offer things in sets of threebecause most people like
options, right? That kind ofpsychology, but yours is a
little bit different. So whydon't you talk a little bit
about how you use yourbackground and your knowledge in
the corporate world? Yes,
Marie-Helene Pelletier (04:09):
I, I use it to you sometimes people think
I'm an organizationalpsychologist, right, someone
that focuses on the psychologyof the organization. I'm not.
I'm a clinical and counselingpsychologist who has also the
management background. So Ifocus my support, even though I
absolutely fully understand thatthis is a system. So we have
(04:30):
individuals teams and theorganizational culture and they
all interact and I work with allreally, but my unique angle is
how can we help the individualsespecially the professionals and
leaders here who are highperformers and delivering so
much to make sure that theyretain their resilience and
(04:51):
build it and sustain it overtime, so that they can continue
to do what they're fabulous atand what they want to contribute
to it. Describe
Mark Williams (05:01):
for me the definition in your mind of one
of these professionals burningout?
Marie-Helene Pelletier (05:08):
Yes.
Well, if if we start from theactual definition of burnout,
maybe that's just started therebecause we use burnout. All day
every day. Yes. But there is adefinition. And it's supported
by the World Health Organizationthree main criteria. One, we're
exhausted second, notnecessarily in order. But the
(05:29):
second criteria is we'recynical. So we've lost hope that
anything's going to change. Andthe third is, it's impacting our
performance. Now, burnout doesnot appear instantly in builds
over time, which means if welook, we're going to see the
signs earlier. So before beingfully exhausted, here, we have
(05:50):
less energy, we're a bit moretired, right? Before we're
cynical, we're not feeling thelove as much less engaged. And
before we see major performanceproblems, you can start seeing
more unusual for you thingsfalling through the cracks. We
all have some at times, ofcourse, we all know where that
line is, when we're starting to,I don't know, send the wrong
(06:12):
proposal to the wrong client.
That's not the usual fallingthrough the cracks, right? So
you can catch these signs there.
Mark Williams (06:23):
Do you find right now? I find it's increasing. And
I don't know if that's throughmy lens. But is there more work
for you like, are you findingmore and more people are burning
the candle at both endsstarting? There's a cynicism and
I would argue that there's acynicism kind of engulfing the
(06:43):
world right now it feels alittle bit more cynical. So I'm
curious if you're seeing a risein what in our definition of
burnout, and then we're going totalk about how we can prevent
it, hopefully. So is there a lotof need for your work?
Marie-Helene Pelletier (06:57):
areas?
There is and more even moreexciting for me there's more of
an interest in catching thingsearly, protecting yourselves
early taking the lead on how wecan at least mitigate some of
these factors. We know fromresearch that it because one of
the challenges with burnout iswe definitely have more people
(07:18):
everywhere saying that they aremore burnt out when they say
that. However, if you're justasked, Are you burned out? Mark,
quite likely you're thinkingabout am I exhausted? And you
may say yes. Which actually doesnot mean you meet all three
criteria, right? Sure. So we arerunning a bit into this kind of
(07:38):
thing, like, you know, hugenumber of people reporting
burnout, but sometimes it's justare you burnt out? Yes or no.
Sometimes it's using a fullvalidated, reliable tool that
makes us see that it is actuallymeeting burnout. Sure. Now, the
other thing too, is that, doesit matter less if you're telling
yes, you're exhausted? Yeah.
It's also important, right? Evenif you're so so anyway, it's
(08:02):
semantics at some point, bottomline is, we are talking more
about mental health in for anumber of reasons. The pandemic
is one of them, it's Onepositive aspect, we are talking
more about it. And in we'repaying more attention within
ourselves as well. So whether wetalk or not, we are more self
(08:23):
aware, we could be even more inmy opinion. We talk more about
it. And but even when we'relooking at full, you know, very
reliable, valid tools, we areseeing an increase in burnout as
well. So yes, it is somethingfor us to pay attention.
Mark Williams (08:39):
Yeah, I'll even say for me and my employees. If
I look at technology, it has, ithas made our lives much easier.
In some respects, I would alsosubmit it may have made our
lives a little more difficult.
And I'll give you a few examplesof that. And also what I
expected my employees,customers, and even my employees
can reach me in a various numberof ways, way more ways. And when
(09:01):
I first started to work, there'semail, there's a text message,
there's through our intranet atwork. So I'm being bombarded by
messages in various locations,as opposed to just used to be on
my voicemail at work or in anemail or in a letter. Now I get
100 emails a day, I'm getting 30voicemails a day, I'm getting
(09:22):
text messages throughout theday, I get LinkedIn messages
throughout the day. Technologyhas also made our jobs a little
bit easier. But now we're askingmore of our employees, I think
because we have sped up thesystem. And so for many of our
employees, we've raised the barif you used to be able to
process 30 applications a week.
Now I can process 60 Because oftechnology. So now there is a
(09:45):
there's a little bit more of aworkload. There's more
communication. There's, we'reexpecting a little bit more. So
I fully understand that. And I'msure that led to and I want to
make sure we talk about yourbook. So Dr. Pelkey ama He has
released a new book, Theresilience plan, a strategic
approach to optimizing your workperformance and mental health.
(10:08):
So let's talk a little bit aboutyour book, the inspiration
behind the book and the value ofthe book.
Marie-Helene Pelletier (10:13):
And when you were talking about a moment
ago about, we've raised the bar,it's true for all the reasons
you just described, it's alsoraised for other reasons, we've
got even more of technology andAI coming into our professional
and personal lives, that willalso demand a lot of changes
(10:35):
adaptability for all of us. Andso the key thing is, if we're
raising that bar, we also wantto raise the resilience. Because
if we only raise the bar andkeep resilience, the same, this
is not going to
Mark Williams (10:50):
recipe for a good direction for disaster for sure.
Right.
Marie-Helene Pelletier (10:53):
And that's in part sometimes what
happens when people sometimessay, Okay, why is should we need
to be strategic about ourresilience is, is that not
pathetic? Like, should we notjust be fine, and we've been
fabulous, and we're continuingto be as fabulous, not pathetic,
it's just that this sport herehas changed. If we were just
(11:17):
going for walks before, nomatter what we are wearing in
our, you know, in terms ofshoes, probably fine. But we
afford deciding to go run, youknow, a marathon or something
like this wrong idea to go inany shoes here, you need to have
the equipment and other piecesof equipment as well. So same
(11:37):
thing here, we've got we'veraised the bar, there are more
demands, some, sometimes it'sthe in part where we're at in
our career, sometimes it's acombination of more demands on
the personal and theprofessional side, for all of us
we're getting we have more likesocietal changes, like the
pandemic, like the AI. And sotherefore, the level of demands
(12:00):
we're facing is much higher. Andif we're not taking deliberate
action, proactive, ideally, thenwe're a bit more at risk. And if
we aren't taking these actions,which is the essence of the
book, then we've got a chance todefinitely mitigate the risks
and quite potentially lead howmuch resilience we have and can
(12:22):
sustain over time.
Mark Williams (12:23):
So talk a little bit about the inspiration for
the book. Yeah,
Marie-Helene Pelletier (12:27):
it's working with my clients, my
executive executive coachingwork, and my speaking work,
professionals and leaders thataccomplish so much all day,
every day. And they get to thatpoint where they just need
something to give them an edge.
And, and then they realize allthese pieces about, okay, I need
to do something, but I don'thave time. I don't know what
(12:49):
exactly what do I do? And thenthey would come to me sometimes
and say, Well, I mean, it can'tbe that complicated. Look at all
the things I have sustained sofar. Oh, the ways in which,
hello, I have been resilient,right? I've
Mark Williams (13:05):
been successful, it's been working for me, right?
Everything's great.
Marie-Helene Pelletier (13:08):
I am that guy like I am that person,
or that woman. And so, and thenI would still keep up. And
because they are so accomplishedin a number of ways. It almost
looks too simple to them.
They're like, Yeah, I'm alreadylike this. And then here's the
the analogy that led to the bookis I tell them, I'd say, Look,
if you were in the business herein business, in general, in your
(13:28):
in your organization, you're youhave a great idea on a certain
new product or service, wouldyou just have that great idea
and implement? Or would you havethat great idea and look at who
else is providing this? How muchare they charging for it, who is
paying for it? What forces inthe future could in fact, you
(13:49):
would look at all this, that'sthe context. Sure. Same here,
you would be strategic, we needto do the same here, we need to
look at our overall context andbuild a strategy. And that's as
I was using this analogy, andmore people saying, after
working with them on buildingtheir strategy here, they would
say, I'm so glad I've got thisnow moving forward. And I so
(14:11):
wish I had this earlier in mylife. And then hearing this a
few times just led to finding away. super
Mark Williams (14:20):
interesting. So let's talk about if you don't
mind, don't want to give awaythe book, obviously. But that's
given up. Let's give enough awayfor people wanting to buy it. So
let's talk a little bit aboutthat strategic plan, if you
don't mind or maybe the basicsof the plan, and how someone can
get started and why they wouldwant to buy the book.
Marie-Helene Pelletier (14:38):
Well, and there are I'll give you even
some some ideas of evenexercises you could try now even
without the book so you knowwhat we really want. What I'm
really after is even more peoplethinking strategically about
their resilience and takingaction. And so however you get
there, that makes me happy. Butin the book, what I've done is
I've extracted some Some of thetools, some of the things we use
(15:02):
on the business side, andtranslated them for hear our
context, because they resonatewith anyone in business, they
resonate with anyone who even ifyou're not in business, they
make instinctual sense, they arevery easy to get. So I get
people to first write down theirmain values, what's most
important for them in life?
Mark Williams (15:24):
On a personal level?
Marie-Helene Pelletier (15:25):
Meaning so what's in everything to me,
okay? Could be, you know,someone may say, what's
important to me is influence. Itmay be power kinds of things
they associate with their work.
And it may also include family,it may include health, it may
include travel, whatever, yep,everything. Then I get them to
do an exercise where they write,again, we go writing because you
(15:47):
need to externalize this, we usethis often in psychology for all
kinds of other circumstances, itdoes help us take a distance see
if and plus you don't need torethink about it tomorrow. It's
in writing two columns, lookingat your current in this current
context, your current sources ofsupply, what gives you energy,
(16:07):
okay. And your current sourcesof demands, what demands energy.
Now, I usually say this peoplejust like you right now, you're
nodding, yeah, I'm you know,sure. Sure. Well, here's the
thing. highly performing peopletend to overestimate their
sources of supply and underestimate their sources of
(16:29):
demands. Sure, as if we'repositively bias that's in part
what pushed us forward, right?
Right, oh, I don't need to dothis, I'm fine. And this demands
not too big. I'm doing it and wecarry on. And it's been very
helpful. However, can't sustainthis forever. You know,
sometimes I ask people, you lookat their list of supply, and
(16:51):
they're like, oh, yeah, youknow, bike ride three times a
week. And I say, Okay, looksgood. How many times in the past
week, last seven days? And thenthey say, well, actually, the
last week has been very busy. Sono, well, in general, well, then
it doesn't go on that list, youneed to get very real with
yourself. And that's when peopleswitch to that very real, what
(17:13):
goes on this list, that itallows them to see how, number
one, this doesn't quitecorrespond to their list of
values of five minutes ago, andit looks off, right? Then we'll
look at their context. And Iwon't go into details there. But
very similar to what we would doin business. In a SWOT analysis.
This time, we're looking at yourpersonal context, internal and
(17:35):
external. And then with this, webuild a strategy look just like
we would do in business pillars,tactics or actions under each
pillar. And that's what you gofor. But here, the actions will
not be huge and aspirational,they will be extremely doable,
because what we want this tomove you to action and build
(17:56):
that sense of self efficacy.
Mark Williams (17:58):
So you're real. I love the SWOT analysis. So
you're literally building aplan, much like I would for a
strategic plan at work, ourstrengths, our weaknesses, our
challenges, right and ouropportunities. So you're
literally looking at your lifelike you would your business.
Yes. Yeah. I love that. And canit be that simple? Is it that
(18:21):
simple? Because you opened up bysaying that it almost sounds too
easy. I just don't take the timeto do it, which is, I think some
part of your message, correct?
Marie-Helene Pelletier (18:29):
That's right. And it is, it does not
take a long amount of time. It'san investment that requires a
bit of self awareness, a bit ofdoing the work. But ya know, in
the book, I propose exercises,they usually take 510 I think
the longest is 15 minutes,maybe. So they don't take that
long of a reflection. But thenyou do have a plan that you know
(18:51):
where you're going, you can leadthis mean, if you think of it on
the business side, doing astrategic plan, I mean, could be
made to be a very complicatedendeavor. It could also be
fairly straightforward. Sure. Sosame thing here, but it changes
everything.
Mark Williams (19:09):
In at work, we have something called KPIs key
performance indicators, it'sour, our map, if you will, or a
snapshot in time of showing thehealth of the business, and
every business has their own andoftentimes its profit revenue
expense that the easy things.
equate that to my life, which Ithink if I think I understand
(19:30):
might be back to the energylist. Right? So here are all the
things I'm feeling and arewanting, and all the things that
are taking my energy. And nowI'm going to build this SWOT
plan on either increasing myenergy reducing my demands, or
demands. Thank you. So is thatultimately kind of what you're
(19:50):
trying to build here?
Marie-Helene Pelletier (19:53):
I think it could be one because I think
I mean, the what is for sure isthat just is like a strategic
plan here in business needs tobe measured in terms of its
efficacy and updated over time.
You would want to do that here,in terms of how exactly you
measure it. Which KPIs are youusing? It may differ from one
person to the next. I think formany Yes, it could be that, that
(20:18):
scale of how much energy do Ifind I have zero to 10 scale,
and I'm just checking in withmyself on a daily basis. That
could be that it could be fordifferent people may look
different. For example, someoneI worked with, did this whole
reflection about their valuesand their case, they valued
family, they also valued thework they were doing that they
(20:41):
enjoyed, okay, then they lookedat their supply and demand
realize that there was nothingtruly no time with family
members, no time with the kidsand all the time with their
partner. There was nothing rightnow. And that's, that's how life
looked like. And so, for thisperson, part of one of their
pillars became family,literally. And some of their
(21:02):
actions here was initially oncea week leave work at whatever
that particular time was, theydecided it was five leave at
five no matter what, telleveryone I've got a personal
commitment. It was not like anappointment. But it was this
person's commitment to goingback and being with their
family. And so for this person,their KPI may be how many
(21:27):
checkmarks do I have in the pastmonth of the one day a week that
I left at five? Sure. Okay, soit may depend.
Mark Williams (21:38):
Let's talk a little bit about results. We're
in a results oriented business,and you're working with people
who are results minded. Yeah.
Great, I'll read the book, I'lldo some exercises, what should I
expect? What's my expectation,when it's over?
Marie-Helene Pelletier (21:55):
You will, that you can build your
strategic plan to be specific tobe with the goal here to be
increased my resilience. If thatwas your goal, and you've built
this plan, according to yourvalues, your context and all
this, then you will see anincrease in your resilience.
(22:16):
Okay. So your ability to gothrough the challenges and still
meet, meet them with energy andcome out even stronger will be
there. For some people, theywill decide that their strategic
plan will be more specific to aspecific to a sub area, if I can
call this, they may say Ialready know I need to work on
(22:38):
my boundaries, and my plan isgoing to be about increasing
boundaries. And my pillars willbe specific about this
boundaries at work boundaries athome boundaries about my
personal self care, for example.
So for this person, then whatthey may expect is just see
themselves move in a directionof even more boundaries. So it
will depend on what your plansfocused on. But you should see
(22:58):
movement in that direction. Justlike in business, if you're
making a strategic plan to sellsomething, you're gonna sell
more of it. And if you're not,when you're assessing, then that
means there's something in theplan that was not you missed or
something changed. And you needto just
Mark Williams (23:14):
what have you find? What have you found there
some of the biggest obstaclesthat you've run into with
working in the corporate worldwith both with what you do the
consulting work and the book?
Well, there is a
Marie-Helene Pelletier (23:27):
more there is actually an interest in
people doing it for themselvesand helping others do it. I
think that in some cultures thatmay be a, they may be early in
these types of conversations.
What's friendly with withapproaching it from a resilience
from a strategic perspective isthat it's using language we
(23:48):
already use in other areas. Soit makes it a bit easier and
obstacle might have been if thetopic was treated even more
clinically, potentially, thenthat would make it would the
content will be equally valid,probably. But the words here
would be too far from the wordsthat we use for them to be easy
(24:11):
to bring in our daily. Sosometimes that's a bit of that
stigma that is less now thanwhat it was and probably will be
less than another five years. If
Mark Williams (24:24):
corporately I feel good. So I feel good about
where I am businesses good. I'moptimistic. But in my personal
life, I may be burned out there.
Yeah. Do you? Is there still abenefit to the book number one,
and I would imagine there'sstill a benefit to doing the
SWOT analysis and everythingelse, just on a personal level.
What takes my demands? Where doI feel deficient? I'm assuming
(24:47):
that regardless of where you arein life, you could be burned out
either corporately, personallyor both, or not at all,
professionally, but personally.
Marie-Helene Pelletier (24:58):
Yes, EDM I mean be technical. And the
term burnout as defined by theWorld Health Organization is
actually an occupationalphenomenon. So technically, it's
more related to your work. Butif we use the word of it more
broadly in terms of beingexhausted, for example, for all
the energy, cognitive, emotionalbehavioral, that we invest, say,
(25:19):
in taking care of aging parentssupporting a friend who's moving
to a new country, and and thenmoving our child from outside
the home to their first yearuniversity, all of this will be
very demanding, right. But youknow, emotions don't stay in
their lane, right? So even ifwork is going great, and home or
(25:42):
personal life is verychallenging. Sometimes we think
that we can keep things in theirlane. But the reality is that
lanes all in Mark that lanes allNMH here, and therefore they are
actually together. So yes, ifwe're finding that right now,
from a corporate professionalperspective, things are actually
(26:04):
really going great. And we'rehaving challenging challenges
here. It's still all in the sameperson absolutely need the
resilience. Ben, this one may bemore require more actions for
you to change on the personalside, in this case, but that's
it.
Mark Williams (26:20):
What little tidbits of advice could you
offer our listeners that areinterested in the topic, but
want to get their feet wet? Arethere things that they can do at
home or questions they can askthemselves or tips and tricks
that might lead them to move ina certain direction?
Marie-Helene Pelletier (26:40):
I know, and love that. Because that's
sometimes that that's how westart, right? We even if the
full deal would be fantastic.
The reality is, number one, ourlife lives are full. So we need
to start small to build thatmomentum within ourselves. I'll
give you two ideas that I like.
(27:01):
One is not just I like researchand support as well. The first
is, and it's the beginning of somany things. It's this that self
awareness. You know, we talkabout it quite a bit in the
context of emotionalintelligence, for example. But
truly, again, if I use abusiness analogy, you know, when
in business, would we ever say,You know what, I don't need to
(27:23):
know how things are going rightnow. Just let me know if there's
a crisis. Yep. No, we wantinformation. We want to deal
with things early. We want toavoid the crisis. Same thing
here. So why not print acalendar from the internet
posted on a wall that you visiteach night where you brush your
teeth, maybe every night, a zeroto 10 scale, put a number, how
(27:44):
was your energy level todayaverage? Simple, it will take
you two seconds. But that willstart giving you it will be
internally consistent, becauseit's only you rating it each
time. And you'll see it eight,seven and a half, seven, six and
a half, seven, six and a half,six, you'll catch it before
you're down here. Sure. So So Iwould say that, that self
(28:10):
awareness would be a key piece,and I'm sorry, remind me of your
question. I got distracted by myown. So
Mark Williams (28:16):
that was that was the first tip. Great trick,
right? So not even a trick,great tip. So watch. Try to
mindfully monitor your your,your feeling your your your
tiredness, your exhaustion, youryour enthusiasm for work, you're
asking people to be mindful ofthat in a in a very specific
(28:37):
way. And a calendar, doing thaton a daily basis is one great
idea. Fantastic. Any other tipsthat someone might be able to
look at, or monitoringthemselves? And they may go,
Hey, maybe it's time for me todo a little work on myself?
Marie-Helene Pelletier (28:50):
I know exactly. You could then Well,
you could do that exercise wediscussed earlier writing down
your supply and demand becausethat's one that very
consistently of all of thesethey work well together. But if
you're going to do just one,that may be the one to start
with. Because for many peoplethey've told me just doing this
shifted and give me give me gaveme sorry, an idea of something I
(29:13):
can try. So that's that's a bitperhaps, when and then a third
one I would say is, you know,when we're and we've heard this,
especially in the context ofpandemic, that research saying
that, Oh, if we're going toincrease our resilience, there
are four areas that if we investin these areas, we're more
likely to increases likeexercise, nutrition, sleep and
(29:35):
time with people we enjoyspending time with. And that's
an example of how all of thesethings look so simple. And we
all do them to some degrees.
We're like, well, was that goingto change? If I pay more
attention to any of these? Itwill. And so if you're wondering
what to do, my my audiences ofhigh performing people most of
the time did they have some formof exercise going on? On very
(29:58):
often it's very active exercise,cycling, running, you know,
hiking, whatever. Meditation isoften the piece that they know
would be good for them. And theyhave not yet turned to or they
tried and hated it, or theytried and they think they're not
good at it because their brainwas going. And but research is
solid in this area. And if youstart small and change, change
(30:22):
your success criteria successand meditation is not it, I will
encourage you to consider thisat least to start. Don't see
success as was I an eight plusstudent at calming my brain? No.
success here is did you pressplay on? Because many will use
that in app? Did you press playand stay sitting here? Just
(30:44):
trying to do it for this entiretime? Doesn't matter if your
brain went away? Did you do theinstructions? Putting it back
when you did? If you did thatfull marks?
Mark Williams (30:56):
Interesting.
Interesting. You say this, mytherapist would I am Liz
literally listening to his voiceas you speak, telling me to
attempt meditation. In he wouldhe would say is even if it's not
meditation, but you can findfive or 10 minutes alone with no
distractions, no noise, nomusic, no phone, just by
(31:18):
yourself with your thoughts,your in your step in the right
direction. Would you agree withthat? I
Marie-Helene Pelletier (31:27):
would agree with this. Another example
of action sometimes that thatI'll recommend is, if there is
an activity you do in life rightnow that you often do while
doing something else, listeningto music, listening to a
podcast, not yours, Mark, Mark,you'll always want to listen to
my podcast. But if there is anactivity where you could
(31:48):
actually just do the one thingnot do to take a pause, actually
just listen to mark podcast atone point. And then just go walk
your dog just be with your dog,that dog and podcast going on at
the same time. Right? You'remore present in that one moment.
And your brain will thank youbecause brain prefers one thing
(32:09):
at a time.
Mark Williams (32:10):
Awesome. Awesome.
Awesome. So let's close withwhere can we find your book?
Where can we find you? And wewill have, we'll post a once we
post the podcast, we'll have allof these links. But where can we
find the book? Where can we findyou?
Unknown (32:24):
Yes, everything at theresilienceplan.com If you go
to theresilienceplan.com You'llfind the book when I do me and
you can find me on LinkedIn toalways love connecting over on
LinkedIn.
Mark Williams (32:37):
Well, the summarize if any of the
listeners are feeling a littlebit exhausted, maybe starting to
feel a little cynical. Maybeit's affecting your performance.
There might be burnout that'sbeginning. And even if it's not,
if it's just one of the three,perhaps taking a look or
listening to some of the tips ortaking some of the ideas that MH
(32:58):
has has recommended might startin a different direction. So I
want to thank MH for being onthe show. super thrilled to have
you on thank you again. Thankyou, Mark. And for everyone
else. This is Balacne, NotBurnout. We'll talk to you
Thanks for listening. If youthink balance is as important as
I do, at work and all throughoutyour life. Help the show out by
(33:19):
leaving me a five star reviewfollowing me on social media or
sharing the podcast with someoneyou think would appreciate it.
If you have comments orquestions. I'd love for you to
join the conversation with me onLinkedIn. I want to thank OBI
Creative for producing thepodcast and Swells Beats for
getting the music for me. Thanksfor sharing your time with me
today. And until next time, thisis Mark signing off
You're listening to Balance, Not Burnout, a
podcast helping leaders rethinkthe speed of their business. And
I'm your host Mark Williams.
Join me as I explore the powerof a more intentional, balanced
approach to leadership. Thanksfor listening.
Marie-Helene Pelletier (00:25):
Hey, everybody, welcome to Balance,
Not Burnout Season Two. Today,Episode Six, we're going to talk
a little bit about a lot moreabout burnout. So sometimes
burnout creeps into our lives,but we can work ahead to make
sure it doesn't happen. Today,I'd like to introduce Dr.
Marie-Helene Pelletier. She's apsychologist with a systems mind
(00:47):
and has both a PhD and an MBA.
She has over 20 years ofexperience as a practicing
psychologist and as a seniorleader in the corporate
insurance, governance andhealthcare sectors. And he has
unique talents is bringingtogether workplace and
psychology. And she's really aspecialist with burnout. She
even has her own book. So Dr.
Marie, welcome. And you can callme an age. Thank you, Mark. It's
(01:10):
an absolute pleasure to be herewith you. So I'd love to know
what got you interested inburnout and a little bit about
your background and how youended up doing what you're
doing? Yes. By chance, you know,early in my career, me and my
now husband moved in northernQuebec as small remote area. And
(01:31):
early in my career, I had thechance because I was there to
work in many different areas asa early psychologist, and one of
them was employee and FamilyAssistance Programs. And there,
and that's now quite a few yearsago, I could see how if people
were able to access resourcesearly, they could truly change
(01:53):
the course of where otherwisethings would have gone. So the
impact of being able to bepreventative. And so that's what
got me got me there, then havinglived in northern, I decided to
do my PhD research on at thetime what was called telehealth,
which was providing services viavideoconferencing that was
considered pre embryonic at thetime. And then that required a
(02:15):
lot of management. So I decidedto study management.
And with these tools, thencontinued with my career.
Mark Williams (02:24):
So I, normally I started the podcast, I'm going
to insert it here. Because wetalk about burnout, I'd love to
know, on a personal level,assume it's a Saturday or Sunday
morning, and you have noresponsibilities. I'd love to
know what a perfect Saturdaymorning is for you. And with
whom and what you would share itwith.
Marie-Helene Pelletier (02:45):
Oh, well, it also will depend on
what else has happened in theweek. But an example of what
that could look like. I tend towake up very early before anyone
else is awake. So that's a timewhere I usually like to go for
my physical exercise outside,ideally, either in the nature or
(03:07):
just outside. Sometimes I'llhave time to also do a little
yoga, little meditation beforeand my little sometimes it's
four minutes, but it's acombination I love, then there
will probably be time withfamily and friends during that
they ideally unscheduled,because the rest of my time
tends to be very scheduled. Yes,I would agree makes it ideal.
Mark Williams (03:30):
So it's interesting what you do. i It's
you're mixing both the corporateworld and psychology which I
find super interesting. From myperspective, we've done that a
little bit with salespeople.
We've done training seminars onthe psychology of where to sit
at a sales meeting or bodylanguage, for example, or
reading people's. how peoplemake decisions, right? Always
(03:54):
offer things in sets of threebecause most people like
options, right? That kind ofpsychology, but yours is a
little bit different. So whydon't you talk a little bit
about how you use yourbackground and your knowledge in
the corporate world? Yes,
Marie-Helene Pelletier (04:09):
I, I use it to you sometimes people think
I'm an organizationalpsychologist, right, someone
that focuses on the psychologyof the organization. I'm not.
I'm a clinical and counselingpsychologist who has also the
management background. So Ifocus my support, even though I
absolutely fully understand thatthis is a system. So we have
(04:30):
individuals teams and theorganizational culture and they
all interact and I work with allreally, but my unique angle is
how can we help the individualsespecially the professionals and
leaders here who are highperformers and delivering so
much to make sure that theyretain their resilience and
(04:51):
build it and sustain it overtime, so that they can continue
to do what they're fabulous atand what they want to contribute
to it. Describe
Mark Williams (05:01):
for me the definition in your mind of one
of these professionals burningout?
Marie-Helene Pelletier (05:08):
Yes.
Well, if if we start from theactual definition of burnout,
maybe that's just started therebecause we use burnout. All day
every day. Yes. But there is adefinition. And it's supported
by the World Health Organizationthree main criteria. One, we're
exhausted second, notnecessarily in order. But the
(05:29):
second criteria is we'recynical. So we've lost hope that
anything's going to change. Andthe third is, it's impacting our
performance. Now, burnout doesnot appear instantly in builds
over time, which means if welook, we're going to see the
signs earlier. So before beingfully exhausted, here, we have
(05:50):
less energy, we're a bit moretired, right? Before we're
cynical, we're not feeling thelove as much less engaged. And
before we see major performanceproblems, you can start seeing
more unusual for you thingsfalling through the cracks. We
all have some at times, ofcourse, we all know where that
line is, when we're starting to,I don't know, send the wrong
(06:12):
proposal to the wrong client.
That's not the usual fallingthrough the cracks, right? So
you can catch these signs there.
Mark Williams (06:23):
Do you find right now? I find it's increasing. And
I don't know if that's throughmy lens. But is there more work
for you like, are you findingmore and more people are burning
the candle at both endsstarting? There's a cynicism and
I would argue that there's acynicism kind of engulfing the
(06:43):
world right now it feels alittle bit more cynical. So I'm
curious if you're seeing a risein what in our definition of
burnout, and then we're going totalk about how we can prevent
it, hopefully. So is there a lotof need for your work?
Marie-Helene Pelletier (06:57):
areas?
There is and more even moreexciting for me there's more of
an interest in catching thingsearly, protecting yourselves
early taking the lead on how wecan at least mitigate some of
these factors. We know fromresearch that it because one of
the challenges with burnout iswe definitely have more people
(07:18):
everywhere saying that they aremore burnt out when they say
that. However, if you're justasked, Are you burned out? Mark,
quite likely you're thinkingabout am I exhausted? And you
may say yes. Which actually doesnot mean you meet all three
criteria, right? Sure. So we arerunning a bit into this kind of
(07:38):
thing, like, you know, hugenumber of people reporting
burnout, but sometimes it's justare you burnt out? Yes or no.
Sometimes it's using a fullvalidated, reliable tool that
makes us see that it is actuallymeeting burnout. Sure. Now, the
other thing too, is that, doesit matter less if you're telling
yes, you're exhausted? Yeah.
It's also important, right? Evenif you're so so anyway, it's
(08:02):
semantics at some point, bottomline is, we are talking more
about mental health in for anumber of reasons. The pandemic
is one of them, it's Onepositive aspect, we are talking
more about it. And in we'repaying more attention within
ourselves as well. So whether wetalk or not, we are more self
(08:23):
aware, we could be even more inmy opinion. We talk more about
it. And but even when we'relooking at full, you know, very
reliable, valid tools, we areseeing an increase in burnout as
well. So yes, it is somethingfor us to pay attention.
Mark Williams (08:39):
Yeah, I'll even say for me and my employees. If
I look at technology, it has, ithas made our lives much easier.
In some respects, I would alsosubmit it may have made our
lives a little more difficult.
And I'll give you a few examplesof that. And also what I
expected my employees,customers, and even my employees
can reach me in a various numberof ways, way more ways. And when
(09:01):
I first started to work, there'semail, there's a text message,
there's through our intranet atwork. So I'm being bombarded by
messages in various locations,as opposed to just used to be on
my voicemail at work or in anemail or in a letter. Now I get
100 emails a day, I'm getting 30voicemails a day, I'm getting
(09:22):
text messages throughout theday, I get LinkedIn messages
throughout the day. Technologyhas also made our jobs a little
bit easier. But now we're askingmore of our employees, I think
because we have sped up thesystem. And so for many of our
employees, we've raised the barif you used to be able to
process 30 applications a week.
Now I can process 60 Because oftechnology. So now there is a
(09:45):
there's a little bit more of aworkload. There's more
communication. There's, we'reexpecting a little bit more. So
I fully understand that. And I'msure that led to and I want to
make sure we talk about yourbook. So Dr. Pelkey ama He has
released a new book, Theresilience plan, a strategic
approach to optimizing your workperformance and mental health.
(10:08):
So let's talk a little bit aboutyour book, the inspiration
behind the book and the value ofthe book.
Marie-Helene Pelletier (10:13):
And when you were talking about a moment
ago about, we've raised the bar,it's true for all the reasons
you just described, it's alsoraised for other reasons, we've
got even more of technology andAI coming into our professional
and personal lives, that willalso demand a lot of changes
(10:35):
adaptability for all of us. Andso the key thing is, if we're
raising that bar, we also wantto raise the resilience. Because
if we only raise the bar andkeep resilience, the same, this
is not going to
Mark Williams (10:50):
recipe for a good direction for disaster for sure.
Right.
Marie-Helene Pelletier (10:53):
And that's in part sometimes what
happens when people sometimessay, Okay, why is should we need
to be strategic about ourresilience is, is that not
pathetic? Like, should we notjust be fine, and we've been
fabulous, and we're continuingto be as fabulous, not pathetic,
it's just that this sport herehas changed. If we were just
(11:17):
going for walks before, nomatter what we are wearing in
our, you know, in terms ofshoes, probably fine. But we
afford deciding to go run, youknow, a marathon or something
like this wrong idea to go inany shoes here, you need to have
the equipment and other piecesof equipment as well. So same
(11:37):
thing here, we've got we'veraised the bar, there are more
demands, some, sometimes it'sthe in part where we're at in
our career, sometimes it's acombination of more demands on
the personal and theprofessional side, for all of us
we're getting we have more likesocietal changes, like the
pandemic, like the AI. And sotherefore, the level of demands
(12:00):
we're facing is much higher. Andif we're not taking deliberate
action, proactive, ideally, thenwe're a bit more at risk. And if
we aren't taking these actions,which is the essence of the
book, then we've got a chance todefinitely mitigate the risks
and quite potentially lead howmuch resilience we have and can
(12:22):
sustain over time.
Mark Williams (12:23):
So talk a little bit about the inspiration for
the book. Yeah,
Marie-Helene Pelletier (12:27):
it's working with my clients, my
executive executive coachingwork, and my speaking work,
professionals and leaders thataccomplish so much all day,
every day. And they get to thatpoint where they just need
something to give them an edge.
And, and then they realize allthese pieces about, okay, I need
to do something, but I don'thave time. I don't know what
(12:49):
exactly what do I do? And thenthey would come to me sometimes
and say, Well, I mean, it can'tbe that complicated. Look at all
the things I have sustained sofar. Oh, the ways in which,
hello, I have been resilient,right? I've
Mark Williams (13:05):
been successful, it's been working for me, right?
Everything's great.
Marie-Helene Pelletier (13:08):
I am that guy like I am that person,
or that woman. And so, and thenI would still keep up. And
because they are so accomplishedin a number of ways. It almost
looks too simple to them.
They're like, Yeah, I'm alreadylike this. And then here's the
the analogy that led to the bookis I tell them, I'd say, Look,
if you were in the business herein business, in general, in your
(13:28):
in your organization, you're youhave a great idea on a certain
new product or service, wouldyou just have that great idea
and implement? Or would you havethat great idea and look at who
else is providing this? How muchare they charging for it, who is
paying for it? What forces inthe future could in fact, you
(13:49):
would look at all this, that'sthe context. Sure. Same here,
you would be strategic, we needto do the same here, we need to
look at our overall context andbuild a strategy. And that's as
I was using this analogy, andmore people saying, after
working with them on buildingtheir strategy here, they would
say, I'm so glad I've got thisnow moving forward. And I so
(14:11):
wish I had this earlier in mylife. And then hearing this a
few times just led to finding away. super
Mark Williams (14:20):
interesting. So let's talk about if you don't
mind, don't want to give awaythe book, obviously. But that's
given up. Let's give enough awayfor people wanting to buy it. So
let's talk a little bit aboutthat strategic plan, if you
don't mind or maybe the basicsof the plan, and how someone can
get started and why they wouldwant to buy the book.
Marie-Helene Pelletier (14:38):
Well, and there are I'll give you even
some some ideas of evenexercises you could try now even
without the book so you knowwhat we really want. What I'm
really after is even more peoplethinking strategically about
their resilience and takingaction. And so however you get
there, that makes me happy. Butin the book, what I've done is
I've extracted some Some of thetools, some of the things we use
(15:02):
on the business side, andtranslated them for hear our
context, because they resonatewith anyone in business, they
resonate with anyone who even ifyou're not in business, they
make instinctual sense, they arevery easy to get. So I get
people to first write down theirmain values, what's most
important for them in life?
Mark Williams (15:24):
On a personal level?
Marie-Helene Pelletier (15:25):
Meaning so what's in everything to me,
okay? Could be, you know,someone may say, what's
important to me is influence. Itmay be power kinds of things
they associate with their work.
And it may also include family,it may include health, it may
include travel, whatever, yep,everything. Then I get them to
do an exercise where they write,again, we go writing because you
(15:47):
need to externalize this, we usethis often in psychology for all
kinds of other circumstances, itdoes help us take a distance see
if and plus you don't need torethink about it tomorrow. It's
in writing two columns, lookingat your current in this current
context, your current sources ofsupply, what gives you energy,
(16:07):
okay. And your current sourcesof demands, what demands energy.
Now, I usually say this peoplejust like you right now, you're
nodding, yeah, I'm you know,sure. Sure. Well, here's the
thing. highly performing peopletend to overestimate their
sources of supply and underestimate their sources of
(16:29):
demands. Sure, as if we'repositively bias that's in part
what pushed us forward, right?
Right, oh, I don't need to dothis, I'm fine. And this demands
not too big. I'm doing it and wecarry on. And it's been very
helpful. However, can't sustainthis forever. You know,
sometimes I ask people, you lookat their list of supply, and
(16:51):
they're like, oh, yeah, youknow, bike ride three times a
week. And I say, Okay, looksgood. How many times in the past
week, last seven days? And thenthey say, well, actually, the
last week has been very busy. Sono, well, in general, well, then
it doesn't go on that list, youneed to get very real with
yourself. And that's when peopleswitch to that very real, what
(17:13):
goes on this list, that itallows them to see how, number
one, this doesn't quitecorrespond to their list of
values of five minutes ago, andit looks off, right? Then we'll
look at their context. And Iwon't go into details there. But
very similar to what we would doin business. In a SWOT analysis.
This time, we're looking at yourpersonal context, internal and
(17:35):
external. And then with this, webuild a strategy look just like
we would do in business pillars,tactics or actions under each
pillar. And that's what you gofor. But here, the actions will
not be huge and aspirational,they will be extremely doable,
because what we want this tomove you to action and build
(17:56):
that sense of self efficacy.
Mark Williams (17:58):
So you're real. I love the SWOT analysis. So
you're literally building aplan, much like I would for a
strategic plan at work, ourstrengths, our weaknesses, our
challenges, right and ouropportunities. So you're
literally looking at your lifelike you would your business.
Yes. Yeah. I love that. And canit be that simple? Is it that
(18:21):
simple? Because you opened up bysaying that it almost sounds too
easy. I just don't take the timeto do it, which is, I think some
part of your message, correct?
Marie-Helene Pelletier (18:29):
That's right. And it is, it does not
take a long amount of time. It'san investment that requires a
bit of self awareness, a bit ofdoing the work. But ya know, in
the book, I propose exercises,they usually take 510 I think
the longest is 15 minutes,maybe. So they don't take that
long of a reflection. But thenyou do have a plan that you know
(18:51):
where you're going, you can leadthis mean, if you think of it on
the business side, doing astrategic plan, I mean, could be
made to be a very complicatedendeavor. It could also be
fairly straightforward. Sure. Sosame thing here, but it changes
everything.
Mark Williams (19:09):
In at work, we have something called KPIs key
performance indicators, it'sour, our map, if you will, or a
snapshot in time of showing thehealth of the business, and
every business has their own andoftentimes its profit revenue
expense that the easy things.
equate that to my life, which Ithink if I think I understand
(19:30):
might be back to the energylist. Right? So here are all the
things I'm feeling and arewanting, and all the things that
are taking my energy. And nowI'm going to build this SWOT
plan on either increasing myenergy reducing my demands, or
demands. Thank you. So is thatultimately kind of what you're
(19:50):
trying to build here?
Marie-Helene Pelletier (19:53):
I think it could be one because I think
I mean, the what is for sure isthat just is like a strategic
plan here in business needs tobe measured in terms of its
efficacy and updated over time.
You would want to do that here,in terms of how exactly you
measure it. Which KPIs are youusing? It may differ from one
person to the next. I think formany Yes, it could be that, that
(20:18):
scale of how much energy do Ifind I have zero to 10 scale,
and I'm just checking in withmyself on a daily basis. That
could be that it could be fordifferent people may look
different. For example, someoneI worked with, did this whole
reflection about their valuesand their case, they valued
family, they also valued thework they were doing that they
(20:41):
enjoyed, okay, then they lookedat their supply and demand
realize that there was nothingtruly no time with family
members, no time with the kidsand all the time with their
partner. There was nothing rightnow. And that's, that's how life
looked like. And so, for thisperson, part of one of their
pillars became family,literally. And some of their
(21:02):
actions here was initially oncea week leave work at whatever
that particular time was, theydecided it was five leave at
five no matter what, telleveryone I've got a personal
commitment. It was not like anappointment. But it was this
person's commitment to goingback and being with their
family. And so for this person,their KPI may be how many
(21:27):
checkmarks do I have in the pastmonth of the one day a week that
I left at five? Sure. Okay, soit may depend.
Mark Williams (21:38):
Let's talk a little bit about results. We're
in a results oriented business,and you're working with people
who are results minded. Yeah.
Great, I'll read the book, I'lldo some exercises, what should I
expect? What's my expectation,when it's over?
Marie-Helene Pelletier (21:55):
You will, that you can build your
strategic plan to be specific tobe with the goal here to be
increased my resilience. If thatwas your goal, and you've built
this plan, according to yourvalues, your context and all
this, then you will see anincrease in your resilience.
(22:16):
Okay. So your ability to gothrough the challenges and still
meet, meet them with energy andcome out even stronger will be
there. For some people, theywill decide that their strategic
plan will be more specific to aspecific to a sub area, if I can
call this, they may say Ialready know I need to work on
(22:38):
my boundaries, and my plan isgoing to be about increasing
boundaries. And my pillars willbe specific about this
boundaries at work boundaries athome boundaries about my
personal self care, for example.
So for this person, then whatthey may expect is just see
themselves move in a directionof even more boundaries. So it
will depend on what your plansfocused on. But you should see
(22:58):
movement in that direction. Justlike in business, if you're
making a strategic plan to sellsomething, you're gonna sell
more of it. And if you're not,when you're assessing, then that
means there's something in theplan that was not you missed or
something changed. And you needto just
Mark Williams (23:14):
what have you find? What have you found there
some of the biggest obstaclesthat you've run into with
working in the corporate worldwith both with what you do the
consulting work and the book?
Well, there is a
Marie-Helene Pelletier (23:27):
more there is actually an interest in
people doing it for themselvesand helping others do it. I
think that in some cultures thatmay be a, they may be early in
these types of conversations.
What's friendly with withapproaching it from a resilience
from a strategic perspective isthat it's using language we
(23:48):
already use in other areas. Soit makes it a bit easier and
obstacle might have been if thetopic was treated even more
clinically, potentially, thenthat would make it would the
content will be equally valid,probably. But the words here
would be too far from the wordsthat we use for them to be easy
(24:11):
to bring in our daily. Sosometimes that's a bit of that
stigma that is less now thanwhat it was and probably will be
less than another five years. If
Mark Williams (24:24):
corporately I feel good. So I feel good about
where I am businesses good. I'moptimistic. But in my personal
life, I may be burned out there.
Yeah. Do you? Is there still abenefit to the book number one,
and I would imagine there'sstill a benefit to doing the
SWOT analysis and everythingelse, just on a personal level.
What takes my demands? Where doI feel deficient? I'm assuming
(24:47):
that regardless of where you arein life, you could be burned out
either corporately, personallyor both, or not at all,
professionally, but personally.
Marie-Helene Pelletier (24:58):
Yes, EDM I mean be technical. And the
term burnout as defined by theWorld Health Organization is
actually an occupationalphenomenon. So technically, it's
more related to your work. Butif we use the word of it more
broadly in terms of beingexhausted, for example, for all
the energy, cognitive, emotionalbehavioral, that we invest, say,
(25:19):
in taking care of aging parentssupporting a friend who's moving
to a new country, and and thenmoving our child from outside
the home to their first yearuniversity, all of this will be
very demanding, right. But youknow, emotions don't stay in
their lane, right? So even ifwork is going great, and home or
(25:42):
personal life is verychallenging. Sometimes we think
that we can keep things in theirlane. But the reality is that
lanes all in Mark that lanes allNMH here, and therefore they are
actually together. So yes, ifwe're finding that right now,
from a corporate professionalperspective, things are actually
(26:04):
really going great. And we'rehaving challenging challenges
here. It's still all in the sameperson absolutely need the
resilience. Ben, this one may bemore require more actions for
you to change on the personalside, in this case, but that's
it.
Mark Williams (26:20):
What little tidbits of advice could you
offer our listeners that areinterested in the topic, but
want to get their feet wet? Arethere things that they can do at
home or questions they can askthemselves or tips and tricks
that might lead them to move ina certain direction?
Marie-Helene Pelletier (26:40):
I know, and love that. Because that's
sometimes that that's how westart, right? We even if the
full deal would be fantastic.
The reality is, number one, ourlife lives are full. So we need
to start small to build thatmomentum within ourselves. I'll
give you two ideas that I like.
(27:01):
One is not just I like researchand support as well. The first
is, and it's the beginning of somany things. It's this that self
awareness. You know, we talkabout it quite a bit in the
context of emotionalintelligence, for example. But
truly, again, if I use abusiness analogy, you know, when
in business, would we ever say,You know what, I don't need to
(27:23):
know how things are going rightnow. Just let me know if there's
a crisis. Yep. No, we wantinformation. We want to deal
with things early. We want toavoid the crisis. Same thing
here. So why not print acalendar from the internet
posted on a wall that you visiteach night where you brush your
teeth, maybe every night, a zeroto 10 scale, put a number, how
(27:44):
was your energy level todayaverage? Simple, it will take
you two seconds. But that willstart giving you it will be
internally consistent, becauseit's only you rating it each
time. And you'll see it eight,seven and a half, seven, six and
a half, seven, six and a half,six, you'll catch it before
you're down here. Sure. So So Iwould say that, that self
(28:10):
awareness would be a key piece,and I'm sorry, remind me of your
question. I got distracted by myown. So
Mark Williams (28:16):
that was that was the first tip. Great trick,
right? So not even a trick,great tip. So watch. Try to
mindfully monitor your your,your feeling your your your
tiredness, your exhaustion, youryour enthusiasm for work, you're
asking people to be mindful ofthat in a in a very specific
(28:37):
way. And a calendar, doing thaton a daily basis is one great
idea. Fantastic. Any other tipsthat someone might be able to
look at, or monitoringthemselves? And they may go,
Hey, maybe it's time for me todo a little work on myself?
Marie-Helene Pelletier (28:50):
I know exactly. You could then Well,
you could do that exercise wediscussed earlier writing down
your supply and demand becausethat's one that very
consistently of all of thesethey work well together. But if
you're going to do just one,that may be the one to start
with. Because for many peoplethey've told me just doing this
shifted and give me give me gaveme sorry, an idea of something I
(29:13):
can try. So that's that's a bitperhaps, when and then a third
one I would say is, you know,when we're and we've heard this,
especially in the context ofpandemic, that research saying
that, Oh, if we're going toincrease our resilience, there
are four areas that if we investin these areas, we're more
likely to increases likeexercise, nutrition, sleep and
(29:35):
time with people we enjoyspending time with. And that's
an example of how all of thesethings look so simple. And we
all do them to some degrees.
We're like, well, was that goingto change? If I pay more
attention to any of these? Itwill. And so if you're wondering
what to do, my my audiences ofhigh performing people most of
the time did they have some formof exercise going on? On very
(29:58):
often it's very active exercise,cycling, running, you know,
hiking, whatever. Meditation isoften the piece that they know
would be good for them. And theyhave not yet turned to or they
tried and hated it, or theytried and they think they're not
good at it because their brainwas going. And but research is
solid in this area. And if youstart small and change, change
(30:22):
your success criteria successand meditation is not it, I will
encourage you to consider thisat least to start. Don't see
success as was I an eight plusstudent at calming my brain? No.
success here is did you pressplay on? Because many will use
that in app? Did you press playand stay sitting here? Just
(30:44):
trying to do it for this entiretime? Doesn't matter if your
brain went away? Did you do theinstructions? Putting it back
when you did? If you did thatfull marks?
Mark Williams (30:56):
Interesting.
Interesting. You say this, mytherapist would I am Liz
literally listening to his voiceas you speak, telling me to
attempt meditation. In he wouldhe would say is even if it's not
meditation, but you can findfive or 10 minutes alone with no
distractions, no noise, nomusic, no phone, just by
(31:18):
yourself with your thoughts,your in your step in the right
direction. Would you agree withthat? I
Marie-Helene Pelletier (31:27):
would agree with this. Another example
of action sometimes that thatI'll recommend is, if there is
an activity you do in life rightnow that you often do while
doing something else, listeningto music, listening to a
podcast, not yours, Mark, Mark,you'll always want to listen to
my podcast. But if there is anactivity where you could
(31:48):
actually just do the one thingnot do to take a pause, actually
just listen to mark podcast atone point. And then just go walk
your dog just be with your dog,that dog and podcast going on at
the same time. Right? You'remore present in that one moment.
And your brain will thank youbecause brain prefers one thing
(32:09):
at a time.
Mark Williams (32:10):
Awesome. Awesome.
Awesome. So let's close withwhere can we find your book?
Where can we find you? And wewill have, we'll post a once we
post the podcast, we'll have allof these links. But where can we
find the book? Where can we findyou?
Unknown (32:24):
Yes, everything at theresilienceplan.com If you go
to theresilienceplan.com You'llfind the book when I do me and
you can find me on LinkedIn toalways love connecting over on
LinkedIn.
Mark Williams (32:37):
Well, the summarize if any of the
listeners are feeling a littlebit exhausted, maybe starting to
feel a little cynical. Maybeit's affecting your performance.
There might be burnout that'sbeginning. And even if it's not,
if it's just one of the three,perhaps taking a look or
listening to some of the tips ortaking some of the ideas that MH
(32:58):
has has recommended might startin a different direction. So I
want to thank MH for being onthe show. super thrilled to have
you on thank you again. Thankyou, Mark. And for everyone
else. This is Balacne, NotBurnout. We'll talk to you
Thanks for listening. If youthink balance is as important as
I do, at work and all throughoutyour life. Help the show out by
(33:19):
leaving me a five star reviewfollowing me on social media or
sharing the podcast with someoneyou think would appreciate it.
If you have comments orquestions. I'd love for you to
join the conversation with me onLinkedIn. I want to thank OBI
Creative for producing thepodcast and Swells Beats for
getting the music for me. Thanksfor sharing your time with me
today. And until next time, thisis Mark signing off
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