April 28, 2024 • 27 mins
Cholesterol has been demonized for decades, but have we been wrongfully vilifying eggs, dairy, and red meat? John Propper and I, Justin Gaines, invite you to challenge the status quo as we unravel the misconceptions about saturated fats and their impact on heart health. Our in-depth discussion peels back layers of dietary dogma, starting with Ancel Keys' skewed research that shaped public opinion for generations. As we navigate the historical and current scientific landscapes, you'll discover why it's crucial to merge modern findings with the wisdom of our ancestors' diets. We also scrutinize the influence of popular trends like keto and examine the reliability of tests used to monitor cardiovascular well-being. By the end of our talk, you'll be armed with a fresh perspective on what truly constitutes a heart-healthy lifestyle.
The plot thickens as we dissect the essential yet controversial role of cholesterol in our bodies, and the widespread use of statins. John and I take a hard look at the vital functions cholesterol plays in hormone transportation and neuron protection, prompting you to ponder if statins' 'garbage truck' approach to cholesterol management is always justified. We clarify the differences between esterified and de-esterified cholesterol and how our bodies adeptly adjust cholesterol synthesis in response to what we consume. Diving deeper, we shine a light on the oversights of standard cholesterol testing, advocating for a more sophisticated interpretation of results that can steer us away from unnecessary medical interventions. Together, we invite you to join this critical conversation and empower yourself with knowledge that could redefine your approach to heart health.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to the Balance Blueprints podcast,
where we discuss optimaltechniques for health and
finances and then break it downto create an individualized and
balanced plan.
I'm your host, john Propper,here with my co-host, justin
Gaines.
In this episode, justin and Italk about the introduction to
cholesterol, why certain foodslike eggs, dairy and meat have
been demonized if they're reallyas bad as we think and some
(00:22):
common tests we can go into tocheck if we're really at risk
for heart disease.
Thanks for listening and wehope you enjoy.
We'll do a little overview oncholesterol and foods that have
been demonized for a while andfoods that people still think
are bad for them.
Unfortunately, the common oneswell, any food that contains
(00:44):
saturated fat.
So whole milk, whole dairyproducts, eggs, red meat.
I think we're slightly gettingaway from it, but that's mainly
because people have jumped tothe complete opposite of the
spectrum and their snacks aresticks of butter.
Right, yeah, everybody in thatketo trend does a dirty keto,
(01:06):
yeah, yeah, keto is probably theone that.
Yeah, dirty keto is probablythe one that really, really
combated it to start.
But either way, there's amiddle ground, like we always
talk about.
But these foods have beendemonized and said they're
terrible and going to causeheart disease for so long.
And I just kind of want to doan intro because there's a lot
we'll get into in terms ofcholesterol statins tests you
(01:30):
can do for yourself routinetests that you can get at the
doctor so you don't have to payanything extra and you can just
look at some different numbers.
They don't look at a bunch ofsupplements that can help.
But today we'll just, like Isaid, do the very intro, base
level stuff.
Let's do it.
But, yeah, so I think thebiggest event that first
(01:50):
happened was there was aresearcher, ansel Keys, and I
won't get into his whole story,but basically what he did was
there was a president at thetime who had a heart attack, so,
like they made that theirmission.
And there was a president atthe time who had a heart attack,
so they made that their mission.
I can't remember who it was,but they made that their mission
to figure out what causes heartdisease, because it was a huge
(02:12):
event.
So Ancel Keys was a researcher,went to different countries in
Europe and concluded that thepeople, the rich people that eat
high animal products, saturatedfat, they have higher rates of
heart disease than the poorpeople who eat grains and less
animal products.
I very, very much encouragepeople to look into the research
yourself.
(02:33):
I'm not going to get into howmany flaws it had, but the
biggest known flaw is hecherry-picked his data and, for
example, a country like Francethat did not go with his
hypothesis at all.
They eat very high saturatedfat foods and they had one of
the lowest rates of heartdisease and he just said that
must not.
Something must be wrong, so I'mnot going to use that data,
(02:55):
point.
He did that with a couple othercountries too and came back
published his data, came backpublished his data and basically
we've been stuck on this,making all of our regulations
and nutrition research and rulesbased on this very flawed data
and for some reason people can'tcatch up with the times.
So that's where this idea ofsaturated fat is bad came from.
(03:18):
And I think he was awell-respected researcher and
stuff and I don't think it washis mission to get it wrong on
purpose, but we haven't goneback and and adjusted it have
there been other, like researchstudies that disprove, or you
know or continue to prove.
Speaker 2 (03:37):
You know one side or the other on this yeah, so I
mean, it's that that tough?
Speaker 1 (03:43):
So definitely, just to answer your question, yes,
there's tons of research thatshows that it's not the
saturated fat.
Saturated fat, in many cases,in terms of butter or CLA, which
is a type of saturated fat, isactually beneficial for the
heart.
So there's a lot of sciencethere.
And then you know you stillhave funded science.
(04:03):
Well, both are funded, both arebiased.
So you have science on bothsides saying it's good science
today coming out saying it'sstill bad.
Excuse me, we should be vegan.
And that's where I tell peoplemix the science with some common
sense and ancestral wisdom.
Like crisco was invented, Ithink, in the 60s and 70s.
(04:24):
So you know, first of all, if Ihave to say a food was invented
, right, red flag already right,right red flag and foods that
have been around for millenniaare being told.
You know, we're being told,don't eat those, those cause
heart disease.
It's like do what you want with.
(04:46):
So I mix all of those togetherbecause research, unfortunately,
these days can be biased, butyes, it is unfortunate that you
know there's.
Speaker 2 (04:53):
There is the scientific process.
However, you can prove whateveryou want to prove, depending on
what you put in as inputs, ifyou have.
Speaker 1 (05:01):
You know a rationale, that you're trying to come out
with something you're trying tosupport like you said, what you
put in or what you leave out,you know, I mean, like a lot of
people just leave outinformation and then it it's
crazy.
Speaker 2 (05:15):
So so that's all that we know what caused, like the
flaw in his study so.
Speaker 1 (05:26):
So there's a one thing I'll get into next.
I think that will help, andthen I just think that he I'd
have to look again.
The biggest one is I just knowhe left out the stuff that
didn't agree with his study, soI don't really think he had a
strong conclusion of likeconfirmation bias yeah, yeah, he
(05:48):
didn't have a strong conclusionof this causes heart disease.
He was.
He was set in stone on like.
This must be it.
How do I prove that?
And you know, when we do thescientific method, it should be
the opposite.
It should be open-minded towhat is causing this.
It could be anything right thisis my hypothesis.
Speaker 2 (06:06):
Let's prove it right or wrong and then re-evaluate
the hypothesis, not the oppositeshould be open minded to what
is causing this.
Speaker 1 (06:09):
It could be anything.
Speaker 2 (06:10):
Right, this is my hypothesis.
Let's prove it right or wrongand then reevaluate the
hypothesis.
Not this is my outcome.
Speaker 1 (06:13):
My hypothesis will be my outcome.
Right, right.
But if we prove it right andour hypothesis is our outcome, a
lot more benefits for us as anindividual.
Speaker 2 (06:21):
Right, right.
Yeah, there's that pride piece,yeah.
Speaker 1 (06:24):
Yeah, individual, right right.
Yeah, there's that pride piece,yeah, and I'm sure money and
research grants, so he'll getall that.
Speaker 2 (06:30):
Yeah, that's true.
Speaker 1 (06:31):
That's true, I suppose yeah if you can say that
I think this is what it is,then now I'm going to prove it.
Yeah, so yes, again, I suggestpeople to look into that Tons of
information on it.
I just there's so much to learn.
I don't want to learn hisentire backstory, but I've read
it before.
There's a lot of goodinformation.
And a thing that was widelymissed is in the 60s and 70s
(06:56):
when all of this was going on.
So smoking was really, I think,also growing at this time, and
we know when smoking first cameout there were billboards and
ads and doctors promoting it.
So it wasn't.
(07:16):
And now we know obviously it'svery bad for you and it's bad
for heart disease and bloodpressure.
So that was overlooked a lotand could have been another
strong player in why maybe wesaw rates of heart disease
increase at the same time of himlooking for a cause.
So that's one possible to alsokind of build off.
(07:39):
Your question is one possibleavenue you could go down right,
right, because was he doing?
Speaker 2 (07:44):
was he doing his research on like humans as this
test group, or was it?
Speaker 1 (07:49):
yeah, so it.
It wasn't like, uh, it wasn't aresearch or it wasn't a study
where it was an experiment,double blind.
It was all observational study.
He just went into humanpopulations in different
countries, observed what theyate and saw, if they, yeah, yes,
it wasn't okay, so it's like itwas like americans have this
(08:10):
problem.
Speaker 2 (08:11):
What is not in diets in countries that don't have
this problem or in areas thatdon't have this problem yeah,
pretty much areas yeah okaygotcha.
Speaker 1 (08:20):
Yeah.
So he would be like oh, thiscountry doesn't have a lot of
heart disease, they don't seemto eat a lot of.
Speaker 2 (08:26):
So there was no control, there was only
observation of variables.
No control on variables.
Speaker 1 (08:31):
Yes, so which that's you know I'm not saying that to
discount all of that are allstudies that are observational,
but they're a starting point.
Speaker 2 (08:41):
Well, and the issue with observational studies is
the inherent bias, especiallywhen you're doing something like
that.
You're literally taking a mapand saying let's look at the
statistic.
Let's look at one statistic.
Let's look at heart disease andheart attacks, coronary artery
disease.
Let's look at that.
Okay, where is it high, when isit low?
Now let's go observe thosepeople.
Speaker 1 (09:01):
Right, and you know how many millions of variables
are in people's lives.
Speaker 2 (09:06):
Even just geographic variables.
We're talking 70s, so airpollution wasn't Well.
Air pollution in the 70s andwhatnot would have been still
pretty rampant.
Indoor and probably not whereyou are.
Depending on where you were,you could have very rural
outdoorsy places and then veryrampant places with high
(09:26):
pollution, and that's notsomething that would have been
taken into consideration.
Speaker 1 (09:30):
Yeah, a million factors, and that's why it is
interesting.
There's a lot of books on it, alot of stories on it, and it's
pretty hard, when people haveeven gone through his research
and done research on hisresearch, to analyze it.
And you can read those studiesas well.
It doesn't look good for him.
(09:51):
So, yeah, that's interesting,but that's kind of where all of
this, I think, came from.
Also, side note, we did switchforms of light into energy, so
like we were burning oils a lotand well, the light bulb and
electricity and that stuffbecame a lot more mainstream.
(10:11):
So what you'll hear a lot aswell whether this is true or not
, but it does make sense is theindustry that was burning oils
for light had a lot of excessoil.
Now, what do we do with this?
Because we switched toelectricity, light bulbs, all
that, and they switched thoseoils into an edible oil, which
(10:34):
is yourco canola oil, thesevegetable oils you'll even see
videos that vegetable oil.
Actually its first use was tolubricate engines.
So, like they had an excess ofthese oils and instead of not
selling them anymore, theyfigured out how can we adapt and
change them into something wecan still sell.
So, as a business model, a plusinteresting, interesting yeah,
(11:00):
so is that when we saw a changein fast food and fry food as
well yeah, like mcdonald's usedto use beef fat and then they
switched to more of, yeah, thevegetable oils way cheaper.
They like to.
It's promoted as vegetable andthat's why they piggybacked off
that research of animal productsare bad.
Eat these vegetable oils thatwe've made for you, so you can
(11:24):
patent those.
You can't patent a cow fat.
So, yeah, those kind of wenttogether.
And then another thing that waswidely missed was sugar.
At this time again, I encouragepeople to look into this
research.
It's crazy.
The sugar industry was bribingand putting lots of money
(11:44):
towards researchers to makesugar look good and if it did
look bad, to not publish thatresearch.
So sugar was a huge problem interms of heart disease, diabetes
.
But it was a huge industry.
It still is, and you can seemany doctors, many researchers
that were paid off.
If you want to look it up, tohide research, to not release
(12:06):
the research that showed sugarwas bad or to promote sugar.
So again, at the same time,smoking sugar, all these other
things, vegetable oils beingcreated I'm not saying it.
Vegetable oils being createdI'm not saying it's a conspiracy
.
I'm not saying they want ussick.
I'm most likely saying it was amoney thing.
It made them a lot of money andthey wanted to continue making
a lot of money.
So right right it's bad timingfor all a lot of oils are.
Speaker 2 (12:30):
Those are unsaturated fats, right, most of those oils
yes, most of them, yeah, arepolyunsaturated fats.
Speaker 1 (12:36):
And an easy thing.
If you know, we're beginner athome.
Saturated fats are usually hardat room temperature.
You know your butter won't melt, your coconut oil, animal fat
if it's warm out they'll startto get melty.
Polyunsaturated fats, likevegetable oils, or
monounsaturated fat, like oliveoil, those are liquid at room
(12:57):
temperature.
I think polyunsaturated fatswill actually even be liquid if
you put them in the fridge likevegetable oils.
If you have a good qualityolive oil, it will get thicker
in the fridge not solid, though,right not solid, but pretty
cloudy and dense.
Speaker 2 (13:15):
Olive oil is thick to begin with.
Speaker 1 (13:19):
Yeah, the good stuff?
Well, because if you buy cheapolive oil, it basically becomes
a cheap vegetable oil.
Speaker 2 (13:27):
Yeah, it's just mono.
Speaker 1 (13:29):
Yeah, they process it a lot and make it thin and
clear, so we could do a wholedifferent episode on vegetable
oils and all that stuff.
Speaker 2 (13:39):
Right, right, right.
We're getting a little detourout here.
Speaker 1 (13:42):
But this is good because this is the basic
information of why are thesethings demonized?
Why are we still told todaythat we shouldn't eat these
foods that humans have beeneating since day one?
This goes back to a lot of.
Also, what made humans humans?
Some people argue it was magicmushrooms.
Some people argue I'm in thecamp of it was a lot of seafood
(14:04):
because of the brain buildingnutrients in that.
So you know these foods thathave saturated fat in them are
not going to cause us harm.
So, moving on to the next step,if you go to the doctors, we're
kind of talking about all ofthis because I want to promote
eating these traditional,healthy foods that are demonized
.
But also, statins are a hugething right now where super
(14:25):
prescribed tons of people are onthem and I'd say they're over
prescribed to a point where yourcholesterol is getting slightly
high.
Let's just put you on a statinand see what happens and there's
a lot of problems with thesedrugs and statins, those are the
blood thinners.
Speaker 2 (14:41):
I could be completely .
I'm shooting from the hip here.
Yeah, no, no, I'm only thinkingbecause I actually I don't.
Speaker 1 (14:47):
I got to remember.
I don't think I know the exactmechanism on how statins work.
I know some of their negativeside effects, but they just I
got my computer here.
Speaker 2 (14:56):
I can look it up.
What are?
Speaker 1 (14:57):
yeah, they lower cholesterol.
Speaker 2 (14:59):
You'd have to look up how I just yeah, what are
statins and how do they work?
Statins are a class of medicineused to lower cholesterol.
Okay, we know that.
Uh, while some of thecholesterol in your blood comes
from food, most is made by theliver.
Statins work by reducing theamount of cholesterol made by
the liver and helping the liverremove cholesterol that is
(15:20):
already in the blood.
Speaker 1 (15:22):
Okay.
So basically I guess a garbagetruck for cholesterol I mean for
this podcast anyways, I thinkthat's a great description of
you.
Take this pill.
It's going to mimic a moleculein your body that is telling
your body make less cholesterol,because that is a big
misconception.
I think that's a greatgoing-off point.
There's a couple here, butfirst one being is most of your
(15:47):
cholesterol comes from beingmade in the body, not from your
food.
So this is a drug and this isan industry telling you we want
to decrease cholesterol, whenit's one of the most important
molecules in the body, whichhelps transport hormones around,
helps protect neurons and thebrain's made of it.
(16:08):
So this is an importantmolecule that we don't really
just want to willy nilly take apill pill for if we're on the
fence, if you go to your doctor,cholesterol might be high and
we'll get into.
Is your cholesterol actuallyhigh or are they just very
overprescribed?
But to go off that, a quickthing is there's two types of
cholesterol.
(16:28):
There is I think it's righthere.
Yeah, there's two types ofcholesterol.
There's esterified.
Now, esterified cholesteroljust means it's attached to
another molecule.
And then there's de-esterified,which is unattached, so the
body can only use freecholesterol or de-esterified, so
(16:52):
it's not attached to anothermolecule.
And in food most of thecholesterol is esterified.
So that means it's a lot harderfor the body to use cholesterol
from food.
Not saying it's impossible, notsaying it doesn't have an
effect, but it has to uncoupleit, yes.
So not only does the body haveto de-esterify cholesterol from
(17:13):
food, that cholesterol thencompetes with already
cholesterol in the body.
So it's kind of I guess I don'treally know how to say it in a
good way but its absorption isvery poor compared to the
cholesterol your liver isalready making.
So when people put a lot ofweight on saturated fat
cholesterol, Well, it soundslike that's how the pills.
Speaker 2 (17:35):
That's why the pill works is because it binds to it,
and it makes it so that youknow it doesn't have something
bound to it, and so then yourbody can't absorb it, Whereas if
it wasn't anything bound to it,your body could absorb it,
which now makes sense on why itbinding to the enzyme is
important.
Speaker 1 (17:50):
Yeah, and 80% of your cholesterol.
I know I said the number 80,for that's how much your brain
is, but 80% of the cholesterolis made by your intestines and
liver.
And here's the thing is if youstart to eat a lot of
cholesterol and you haven'tbefore you start to eat a lot of
foods with saturated fat, yes,you may see your cholesterol go
(18:11):
up, but the body will then startto make less.
It will adjust.
So this is a lot of things.
That people forget about, toois if you're not eating enough
cholesterol, which is verydamaging when we get into that,
but your body will ramp upproduction and make more.
If you start to eat more of itbecause you're getting it from
your diet, your body can lowerand make less.
So a lot of things get missedhere.
(18:34):
With cholesterol tests, whichwe'll get into, how much diet
actually affects your serumcholesterol?
Is that really even important?
Because we'll talk aboutdifferent types of cholesterol.
Everyone knows LDL and HDL.
This is what you get done atthe doctors but is that even
enough information to tell youif you're having problems or not
?
I'll tell you the answer rightnow no, it's not, and I guess
(18:58):
this is probably a good jumpingoff point if we'll just do a
quick introduction of all that.
So to wrap this up, not go toolong, because this is going to
be multiple episodes You'll goto the doctor say you're worried
about your cholesterol.
They're going to give you atotal cholesterol test and HDL
and LDL.
Now if we think aboutcholesterol because that's what
(19:21):
if we boil it down to all ofsaturated food, the concern is
high cholesterol, heart disease,heart failure, death.
So we're talking aboutcholesterol there are these
molecules that transport othermolecules throughout the body,
like little cars that transportyou to different places, because
it protects them and youcouldn't get there without them.
So they allow them to enter andleave.
(19:44):
We want these molecules to benice, big and fluffy like clouds
.
So if you have a lot ofcholesterol, it's not as bad as
what type of cholesterol is it?
So if your cholesterol is nice,big, fluffy, moves along,
(20:07):
that's different than thecholesterol being plaque-like.
So you've heard of plaque, sosmall dots that stick and cause
problems.
So when we go to the doctor andwe get this test total
cholesterol, hdl, ldl that saysnothing about the size of our
cholesterol, the particles, howmany particles and that's where
(20:29):
we kind of go wrong is we thenprescribe medication off of a
test that doesn't tell us enoughinformation.
So just to start there.
I think we'll get into it a lotmore in the other episodes, but
just to start, there is.
I strongly recommend, if yourdoctor does want to talk to you
about a statin or talk to youabout your cholesterol is too
high is I strongly recommendasking for in-depth tests like
(20:52):
particle size, vldl there's aton of different types of LDLs,
because it's not just about that.
Or, if that's extra money andyou don't have it, a really good
way to test at home.
If you want to look at a recentblood test you got, say, from
the doctor, or you go and theywant to look at your total
(21:14):
cholesterol, ldl.
Hdl a better marker because thiswill be done on a normal
cholesterol test is look at yourtriglycerides over your HDL.
So this ratio is a betterpredictor for heart disease than
any of the others on the normalpanel and we want it to be
around two or less.
So, say, your triglycerides are100 and your HDL is 50.
(21:37):
That's a good ratio, so, andanything less than that.
So that's a great at-home test,very practical.
You're worried about it.
You're concerned.
Maybe you're on the fence andyour doctor wants to put you on
a statin and you don't.
You don't know if you shouldlook at your triglycerides.
That's always done on a normalcholesterol test.
(21:58):
Divide it by your HDL and ifit's around two or less you're,
you're good to go.
It's a better predictor ofheart disease.
If you're over that, well, theeasiest thing we could do is
lower triglycerides, and we'llget into that.
It's mainly about eating sugarand not fat, as crazy as that
sounds.
Speaker 2 (22:17):
We might want to split this and bring it back in,
but what does cholesterolactually do with the body?
So all it really does.
What is its purpose?
Why do we need it?
Speaker 1 (22:27):
yeah.
So the main things I would sayis it's a protective molecule,
so cholesterol covers neurons.
So we know neurons are going tosend signals throughout the
body and say if anyone has dealtwith nerve pain or something
like that, we don't want thosenerves being damaged.
(22:48):
So cholesterol is one function,is it coats neurons, protects
them.
Another thing is it transportshormones.
So to have proper hormonefunction we need cholesterol to
be transporting testosterone.
Have proper hormone function,we need cholesterol to be
transporting testosterone,estrogen, progesterone.
(23:08):
It's a transporter of all thosehormones and we know how
important hormones are forhealth.
And then it's one of the mainmolecules that makes up our
brain.
So this is all off memory soI'm going to see if I can find
it here, but these are the mainpoints.
So protective layers for thebrain, just what the brain is
made out of.
I don't think we have to gointo why your brain is important
(23:30):
.
Speaker 2 (23:32):
But we have to.
Speaker 1 (23:35):
I mean, there's already some brain problems, but
those are the three main thingsthat I always remember of like
what is cholesterol?
What's it do?
Why is it good?
Yes, and it also plays a rolein the transmission of
neurotransmitters.
So, it's very important in yourcentral nervous system.
(23:55):
This has approximately 25% ofthe total amount of cholesterol
present in humans is localizedto the brain organ.
Speaker 2 (24:17):
That's why there's a huge link between statins and
Alzheimer's.
I mean, you are affectingpeople's memories.
I was just going to say, yeah,alzheimer's depression, anxiety,
like a lot of these mentalthings, like that's on a huge
upward trajectory and you wonderwhy people do so well on a
carnivore diet.
Speaker 1 (24:29):
Yeah, why they have better mental clarity.
And what?
Yeah, it's, it's because, oh,you're giving your brain
nutrients it needs.
Speaker 2 (24:36):
And it also says it's key in the production of
vitamin d, which just kind ofbrings brings our topics all
full circle on how much we parton light and vitamin D
production.
Speaker 1 (24:47):
Yeah, that's a huge one that slip Huge one.
Speaker 2 (24:50):
Just trying to connect the dots here, because
vitamin D is one of the waysvitamin D production is one of
the ways you're loweringcholesterol, if cholesterol is
used to produce vitamin D.
So if you don't have lightexposure.
Your body has a reservoir ofcholesterol that it needs to
produce vitamin D.
Speaker 1 (25:07):
You're not getting light exposure.
Speaker 2 (25:08):
So it's never depleting that and that's just
sitting there.
Speaker 1 (25:12):
Yeah, that's a genius statement Because one of the
researchers I've seen they'relike one of the best ways to
lower your cholesterol go out inthe sun.
It will use it up to createvitamin D, but people aren't
going out in the sun.
It will use it up to createvitamin d, but people aren't
going out in the sun I feel likeit's something we don't talk
about you know?
Speaker 2 (25:26):
no, it's cholesterol is like demonized, but it's like
to a point where it's almostlike, oh, I should eliminate
cholesterol completely, which Iguess if your body's producing
most of it and your body canproduce it on its own with a
proper diet, then I guess that'swhy eliminating it is the
mindset, but I feel like wedon't even know what it does.
(25:46):
I mean, like if somebody saidto me what does cholesterol do,
I'd be like I don't know.
It's in my food.
Speaker 1 (25:51):
Right, it's in eggs and I don't want to have a lot
of it.
Speaker 2 (25:54):
Like you know what I mean, Like that's what we're
taught.
Speaker 1 (25:56):
And that's the sad part, because the more research
you do, it really seems likethis is one of the most
important molecules for humansto live well, healthy and
function.
Speaker 2 (26:06):
It's crazy how simple all of it is when you just put
it all together.
Speaker 1 (26:11):
That's why I'm almost wanting to get out of it,
because I'm like it's literallylike, just do these things and
you'll be healthy and I don'twant to argue it.
Speaker 2 (26:23):
But the problem is all the misinformation that's
out there that you're constantlyfighting with.
I know, but that's a freakingbattle.
You can't make money offtelling people go out in the sun
, eat whole foods and just enjoylife like make sure you get 10
000 steps get an hour ofsunlight exposure every day.
I'm super excited for ouradditional parts on this because
(26:44):
it seems like there's a lot touncover because we're told so
little about it.
Speaker 1 (26:49):
It'll be good.
So that was a good mishmash ofjumping around, but hopefully
that gets people excited sowe'll go more into it.
Speaker 2 (26:57):
I know I'm amped up.
Speaker 1 (26:59):
Love it.
Thanks for listening to ourpodcast.
Speaker 2 (27:03):
We hope this helps you on your balance freedom
journey.
Speaker 1 (27:05):
Please share your thoughts in the comments section
below.
Speaker 2 (27:07):
Until next time, stay balanced.
Welcome to the Balance Blueprints podcast,
where we discuss optimaltechniques for health and
finances and then break it downto create an individualized and
balanced plan.
I'm your host, john Propper,here with my co-host, justin
Gaines.
In this episode, justin and Italk about the introduction to
cholesterol, why certain foodslike eggs, dairy and meat have
been demonized if they're reallyas bad as we think and some
(00:22):
common tests we can go into tocheck if we're really at risk
for heart disease.
Thanks for listening and wehope you enjoy.
We'll do a little overview oncholesterol and foods that have
been demonized for a while andfoods that people still think
are bad for them.
Unfortunately, the common oneswell, any food that contains
(00:44):
saturated fat.
So whole milk, whole dairyproducts, eggs, red meat.
I think we're slightly gettingaway from it, but that's mainly
because people have jumped tothe complete opposite of the
spectrum and their snacks aresticks of butter.
Right, yeah, everybody in thatketo trend does a dirty keto,
(01:06):
yeah, yeah, keto is probably theone that.
Yeah, dirty keto is probablythe one that really, really
combated it to start.
But either way, there's amiddle ground, like we always
talk about.
But these foods have beendemonized and said they're
terrible and going to causeheart disease for so long.
And I just kind of want to doan intro because there's a lot
we'll get into in terms ofcholesterol statins tests you
(01:30):
can do for yourself routinetests that you can get at the
doctor so you don't have to payanything extra and you can just
look at some different numbers.
They don't look at a bunch ofsupplements that can help.
But today we'll just, like Isaid, do the very intro, base
level stuff.
Let's do it.
But, yeah, so I think thebiggest event that first
(01:50):
happened was there was aresearcher, ansel Keys, and I
won't get into his whole story,but basically what he did was
there was a president at thetime who had a heart attack, so,
like they made that theirmission.
And there was a president atthe time who had a heart attack,
so they made that their mission.
I can't remember who it was,but they made that their mission
to figure out what causes heartdisease, because it was a huge
(02:12):
event.
So Ancel Keys was a researcher,went to different countries in
Europe and concluded that thepeople, the rich people that eat
high animal products, saturatedfat, they have higher rates of
heart disease than the poorpeople who eat grains and less
animal products.
I very, very much encouragepeople to look into the research
yourself.
(02:33):
I'm not going to get into howmany flaws it had, but the
biggest known flaw is hecherry-picked his data and, for
example, a country like Francethat did not go with his
hypothesis at all.
They eat very high saturatedfat foods and they had one of
the lowest rates of heartdisease and he just said that
must not.
Something must be wrong, so I'mnot going to use that data,
(02:55):
point.
He did that with a couple othercountries too and came back
published his data, came backpublished his data and basically
we've been stuck on this,making all of our regulations
and nutrition research and rulesbased on this very flawed data
and for some reason people can'tcatch up with the times.
So that's where this idea ofsaturated fat is bad came from.
(03:18):
And I think he was awell-respected researcher and
stuff and I don't think it washis mission to get it wrong on
purpose, but we haven't goneback and and adjusted it have
there been other, like researchstudies that disprove, or you
know or continue to prove.
Speaker 2 (03:37):
You know one side or the other on this yeah, so I
mean, it's that that tough?
Speaker 1 (03:43):
So definitely, just to answer your question, yes,
there's tons of research thatshows that it's not the
saturated fat.
Saturated fat, in many cases,in terms of butter or CLA, which
is a type of saturated fat, isactually beneficial for the
heart.
So there's a lot of sciencethere.
And then you know you stillhave funded science.
(04:03):
Well, both are funded, both arebiased.
So you have science on bothsides saying it's good science
today coming out saying it'sstill bad.
Excuse me, we should be vegan.
And that's where I tell peoplemix the science with some common
sense and ancestral wisdom.
Like crisco was invented, Ithink, in the 60s and 70s.
(04:24):
So you know, first of all, if Ihave to say a food was invented
, right, red flag already right,right red flag and foods that
have been around for millenniaare being told.
You know, we're being told,don't eat those, those cause
heart disease.
It's like do what you want with.
(04:46):
So I mix all of those togetherbecause research, unfortunately,
these days can be biased, butyes, it is unfortunate that you
know there's.
Speaker 2 (04:53):
There is the scientific process.
However, you can prove whateveryou want to prove, depending on
what you put in as inputs, ifyou have.
Speaker 1 (05:01):
You know a rationale, that you're trying to come out
with something you're trying tosupport like you said, what you
put in or what you leave out,you know, I mean, like a lot of
people just leave outinformation and then it it's
crazy.
Speaker 2 (05:15):
So so that's all that we know what caused, like the
flaw in his study so.
Speaker 1 (05:26):
So there's a one thing I'll get into next.
I think that will help, andthen I just think that he I'd
have to look again.
The biggest one is I just knowhe left out the stuff that
didn't agree with his study, soI don't really think he had a
strong conclusion of likeconfirmation bias yeah, yeah, he
(05:48):
didn't have a strong conclusionof this causes heart disease.
He was.
He was set in stone on like.
This must be it.
How do I prove that?
And you know, when we do thescientific method, it should be
the opposite.
It should be open-minded towhat is causing this.
It could be anything right thisis my hypothesis.
Speaker 2 (06:06):
Let's prove it right or wrong and then re-evaluate
the hypothesis, not the oppositeshould be open minded to what
is causing this.
Speaker 1 (06:09):
It could be anything.
Speaker 2 (06:10):
Right, this is my hypothesis.
Let's prove it right or wrongand then reevaluate the
hypothesis.
Not this is my outcome.
Speaker 1 (06:13):
My hypothesis will be my outcome.
Right, right.
But if we prove it right andour hypothesis is our outcome, a
lot more benefits for us as anindividual.
Speaker 2 (06:21):
Right, right.
Yeah, there's that pride piece,yeah.
Speaker 1 (06:24):
Yeah, individual, right right.
Yeah, there's that pride piece,yeah, and I'm sure money and
research grants, so he'll getall that.
Speaker 2 (06:30):
Yeah, that's true.
Speaker 1 (06:31):
That's true, I suppose yeah if you can say that
I think this is what it is,then now I'm going to prove it.
Yeah, so yes, again, I suggestpeople to look into that Tons of
information on it.
I just there's so much to learn.
I don't want to learn hisentire backstory, but I've read
it before.
There's a lot of goodinformation.
And a thing that was widelymissed is in the 60s and 70s
(06:56):
when all of this was going on.
So smoking was really, I think,also growing at this time, and
we know when smoking first cameout there were billboards and
ads and doctors promoting it.
So it wasn't.
(07:16):
And now we know obviously it'svery bad for you and it's bad
for heart disease and bloodpressure.
So that was overlooked a lotand could have been another
strong player in why maybe wesaw rates of heart disease
increase at the same time of himlooking for a cause.
So that's one possible to alsokind of build off.
(07:39):
Your question is one possibleavenue you could go down right,
right, because was he doing?
Speaker 2 (07:44):
was he doing his research on like humans as this
test group, or was it?
Speaker 1 (07:49):
yeah, so it.
It wasn't like, uh, it wasn't aresearch or it wasn't a study
where it was an experiment,double blind.
It was all observational study.
He just went into humanpopulations in different
countries, observed what theyate and saw, if they, yeah, yes,
it wasn't okay, so it's like itwas like americans have this
(08:10):
problem.
Speaker 2 (08:11):
What is not in diets in countries that don't have
this problem or in areas thatdon't have this problem yeah,
pretty much areas yeah okaygotcha.
Speaker 1 (08:20):
Yeah.
So he would be like oh, thiscountry doesn't have a lot of
heart disease, they don't seemto eat a lot of.
Speaker 2 (08:26):
So there was no control, there was only
observation of variables.
No control on variables.
Speaker 1 (08:31):
Yes, so which that's you know I'm not saying that to
discount all of that are allstudies that are observational,
but they're a starting point.
Speaker 2 (08:41):
Well, and the issue with observational studies is
the inherent bias, especiallywhen you're doing something like
that.
You're literally taking a mapand saying let's look at the
statistic.
Let's look at one statistic.
Let's look at heart disease andheart attacks, coronary artery
disease.
Let's look at that.
Okay, where is it high, when isit low?
Now let's go observe thosepeople.
Speaker 1 (09:01):
Right, and you know how many millions of variables
are in people's lives.
Speaker 2 (09:06):
Even just geographic variables.
We're talking 70s, so airpollution wasn't Well.
Air pollution in the 70s andwhatnot would have been still
pretty rampant.
Indoor and probably not whereyou are.
Depending on where you were,you could have very rural
outdoorsy places and then veryrampant places with high
(09:26):
pollution, and that's notsomething that would have been
taken into consideration.
Speaker 1 (09:30):
Yeah, a million factors, and that's why it is
interesting.
There's a lot of books on it, alot of stories on it, and it's
pretty hard, when people haveeven gone through his research
and done research on hisresearch, to analyze it.
And you can read those studiesas well.
It doesn't look good for him.
(09:51):
So, yeah, that's interesting,but that's kind of where all of
this, I think, came from.
Also, side note, we did switchforms of light into energy, so
like we were burning oils a lotand well, the light bulb and
electricity and that stuffbecame a lot more mainstream.
(10:11):
So what you'll hear a lot aswell whether this is true or not
, but it does make sense is theindustry that was burning oils
for light had a lot of excessoil.
Now, what do we do with this?
Because we switched toelectricity, light bulbs, all
that, and they switched thoseoils into an edible oil, which
(10:34):
is yourco canola oil, thesevegetable oils you'll even see
videos that vegetable oil.
Actually its first use was tolubricate engines.
So, like they had an excess ofthese oils and instead of not
selling them anymore, theyfigured out how can we adapt and
change them into something wecan still sell.
So, as a business model, a plusinteresting, interesting yeah,
(11:00):
so is that when we saw a changein fast food and fry food as
well yeah, like mcdonald's usedto use beef fat and then they
switched to more of, yeah, thevegetable oils way cheaper.
They like to.
It's promoted as vegetable andthat's why they piggybacked off
that research of animal productsare bad.
Eat these vegetable oils thatwe've made for you, so you can
(11:24):
patent those.
You can't patent a cow fat.
So, yeah, those kind of wenttogether.
And then another thing that waswidely missed was sugar.
At this time again, I encouragepeople to look into this
research.
It's crazy.
The sugar industry was bribingand putting lots of money
(11:44):
towards researchers to makesugar look good and if it did
look bad, to not publish thatresearch.
So sugar was a huge problem interms of heart disease, diabetes
.
But it was a huge industry.
It still is, and you can seemany doctors, many researchers
that were paid off.
If you want to look it up, tohide research, to not release
(12:06):
the research that showed sugarwas bad or to promote sugar.
So again, at the same time,smoking sugar, all these other
things, vegetable oils beingcreated I'm not saying it.
Vegetable oils being createdI'm not saying it's a conspiracy
.
I'm not saying they want ussick.
I'm most likely saying it was amoney thing.
It made them a lot of money andthey wanted to continue making
a lot of money.
So right right it's bad timingfor all a lot of oils are.
Speaker 2 (12:30):
Those are unsaturated fats, right, most of those oils
yes, most of them, yeah, arepolyunsaturated fats.
Speaker 1 (12:36):
And an easy thing.
If you know, we're beginner athome.
Saturated fats are usually hardat room temperature.
You know your butter won't melt, your coconut oil, animal fat
if it's warm out they'll startto get melty.
Polyunsaturated fats, likevegetable oils, or
monounsaturated fat, like oliveoil, those are liquid at room
(12:57):
temperature.
I think polyunsaturated fatswill actually even be liquid if
you put them in the fridge likevegetable oils.
If you have a good qualityolive oil, it will get thicker
in the fridge not solid, though,right not solid, but pretty
cloudy and dense.
Speaker 2 (13:15):
Olive oil is thick to begin with.
Speaker 1 (13:19):
Yeah, the good stuff?
Well, because if you buy cheapolive oil, it basically becomes
a cheap vegetable oil.
Speaker 2 (13:27):
Yeah, it's just mono.
Speaker 1 (13:29):
Yeah, they process it a lot and make it thin and
clear, so we could do a wholedifferent episode on vegetable
oils and all that stuff.
Speaker 2 (13:39):
Right, right, right.
We're getting a little detourout here.
Speaker 1 (13:42):
But this is good because this is the basic
information of why are thesethings demonized?
Why are we still told todaythat we shouldn't eat these
foods that humans have beeneating since day one?
This goes back to a lot of.
Also, what made humans humans?
Some people argue it was magicmushrooms.
Some people argue I'm in thecamp of it was a lot of seafood
(14:04):
because of the brain buildingnutrients in that.
So you know these foods thathave saturated fat in them are
not going to cause us harm.
So, moving on to the next step,if you go to the doctors, we're
kind of talking about all ofthis because I want to promote
eating these traditional,healthy foods that are demonized
.
But also, statins are a hugething right now where super
(14:25):
prescribed tons of people are onthem and I'd say they're over
prescribed to a point where yourcholesterol is getting slightly
high.
Let's just put you on a statinand see what happens and there's
a lot of problems with thesedrugs and statins, those are the
blood thinners.
Speaker 2 (14:41):
I could be completely .
I'm shooting from the hip here.
Yeah, no, no, I'm only thinkingbecause I actually I don't.
Speaker 1 (14:47):
I got to remember.
I don't think I know the exactmechanism on how statins work.
I know some of their negativeside effects, but they just I
got my computer here.
Speaker 2 (14:56):
I can look it up.
What are?
Speaker 1 (14:57):
yeah, they lower cholesterol.
Speaker 2 (14:59):
You'd have to look up how I just yeah, what are
statins and how do they work?
Statins are a class of medicineused to lower cholesterol.
Okay, we know that.
Uh, while some of thecholesterol in your blood comes
from food, most is made by theliver.
Statins work by reducing theamount of cholesterol made by
the liver and helping the liverremove cholesterol that is
(15:20):
already in the blood.
Speaker 1 (15:22):
Okay.
So basically I guess a garbagetruck for cholesterol I mean for
this podcast anyways, I thinkthat's a great description of
you.
Take this pill.
It's going to mimic a moleculein your body that is telling
your body make less cholesterol,because that is a big
misconception.
I think that's a greatgoing-off point.
There's a couple here, butfirst one being is most of your
(15:47):
cholesterol comes from beingmade in the body, not from your
food.
So this is a drug and this isan industry telling you we want
to decrease cholesterol, whenit's one of the most important
molecules in the body, whichhelps transport hormones around,
helps protect neurons and thebrain's made of it.
(16:08):
So this is an importantmolecule that we don't really
just want to willy nilly take apill pill for if we're on the
fence, if you go to your doctor,cholesterol might be high and
we'll get into.
Is your cholesterol actuallyhigh or are they just very
overprescribed?
But to go off that, a quickthing is there's two types of
cholesterol.
(16:28):
There is I think it's righthere.
Yeah, there's two types ofcholesterol.
There's esterified.
Now, esterified cholesteroljust means it's attached to
another molecule.
And then there's de-esterified,which is unattached, so the
body can only use freecholesterol or de-esterified, so
(16:52):
it's not attached to anothermolecule.
And in food most of thecholesterol is esterified.
So that means it's a lot harderfor the body to use cholesterol
from food.
Not saying it's impossible, notsaying it doesn't have an
effect, but it has to uncoupleit, yes.
So not only does the body haveto de-esterify cholesterol from
(17:13):
food, that cholesterol thencompetes with already
cholesterol in the body.
So it's kind of I guess I don'treally know how to say it in a
good way but its absorption isvery poor compared to the
cholesterol your liver isalready making.
So when people put a lot ofweight on saturated fat
cholesterol, Well, it soundslike that's how the pills.
Speaker 2 (17:35):
That's why the pill works is because it binds to it,
and it makes it so that youknow it doesn't have something
bound to it, and so then yourbody can't absorb it, Whereas if
it wasn't anything bound to it,your body could absorb it,
which now makes sense on why itbinding to the enzyme is
important.
Speaker 1 (17:50):
Yeah, and 80% of your cholesterol.
I know I said the number 80,for that's how much your brain
is, but 80% of the cholesterolis made by your intestines and
liver.
And here's the thing is if youstart to eat a lot of
cholesterol and you haven'tbefore you start to eat a lot of
foods with saturated fat, yes,you may see your cholesterol go
(18:11):
up, but the body will then startto make less.
It will adjust.
So this is a lot of things.
That people forget about, toois if you're not eating enough
cholesterol, which is verydamaging when we get into that,
but your body will ramp upproduction and make more.
If you start to eat more of itbecause you're getting it from
your diet, your body can lowerand make less.
So a lot of things get missedhere.
(18:34):
With cholesterol tests, whichwe'll get into, how much diet
actually affects your serumcholesterol?
Is that really even important?
Because we'll talk aboutdifferent types of cholesterol.
Everyone knows LDL and HDL.
This is what you get done atthe doctors but is that even
enough information to tell youif you're having problems or not
?
I'll tell you the answer rightnow no, it's not, and I guess
(18:58):
this is probably a good jumpingoff point if we'll just do a
quick introduction of all that.
So to wrap this up, not go toolong, because this is going to
be multiple episodes You'll goto the doctor say you're worried
about your cholesterol.
They're going to give you atotal cholesterol test and HDL
and LDL.
Now if we think aboutcholesterol because that's what
(19:21):
if we boil it down to all ofsaturated food, the concern is
high cholesterol, heart disease,heart failure, death.
So we're talking aboutcholesterol there are these
molecules that transport othermolecules throughout the body,
like little cars that transportyou to different places, because
it protects them and youcouldn't get there without them.
So they allow them to enter andleave.
(19:44):
We want these molecules to benice, big and fluffy like clouds
.
So if you have a lot ofcholesterol, it's not as bad as
what type of cholesterol is it?
So if your cholesterol is nice,big, fluffy, moves along,
(20:07):
that's different than thecholesterol being plaque-like.
So you've heard of plaque, sosmall dots that stick and cause
problems.
So when we go to the doctor andwe get this test total
cholesterol, hdl, ldl that saysnothing about the size of our
cholesterol, the particles, howmany particles and that's where
(20:29):
we kind of go wrong is we thenprescribe medication off of a
test that doesn't tell us enoughinformation.
So just to start there.
I think we'll get into it a lotmore in the other episodes, but
just to start, there is.
I strongly recommend, if yourdoctor does want to talk to you
about a statin or talk to youabout your cholesterol is too
high is I strongly recommendasking for in-depth tests like
(20:52):
particle size, vldl there's aton of different types of LDLs,
because it's not just about that.
Or, if that's extra money andyou don't have it, a really good
way to test at home.
If you want to look at a recentblood test you got, say, from
the doctor, or you go and theywant to look at your total
(21:14):
cholesterol, ldl.
Hdl a better marker because thiswill be done on a normal
cholesterol test is look at yourtriglycerides over your HDL.
So this ratio is a betterpredictor for heart disease than
any of the others on the normalpanel and we want it to be
around two or less.
So, say, your triglycerides are100 and your HDL is 50.
(21:37):
That's a good ratio, so, andanything less than that.
So that's a great at-home test,very practical.
You're worried about it.
You're concerned.
Maybe you're on the fence andyour doctor wants to put you on
a statin and you don't.
You don't know if you shouldlook at your triglycerides.
That's always done on a normalcholesterol test.
(21:58):
Divide it by your HDL and ifit's around two or less you're,
you're good to go.
It's a better predictor ofheart disease.
If you're over that, well, theeasiest thing we could do is
lower triglycerides, and we'llget into that.
It's mainly about eating sugarand not fat, as crazy as that
sounds.
Speaker 2 (22:17):
We might want to split this and bring it back in,
but what does cholesterolactually do with the body?
So all it really does.
What is its purpose?
Why do we need it?
Speaker 1 (22:27):
yeah.
So the main things I would sayis it's a protective molecule,
so cholesterol covers neurons.
So we know neurons are going tosend signals throughout the
body and say if anyone has dealtwith nerve pain or something
like that, we don't want thosenerves being damaged.
(22:48):
So cholesterol is one function,is it coats neurons, protects
them.
Another thing is it transportshormones.
So to have proper hormonefunction we need cholesterol to
be transporting testosterone.
Have proper hormone function,we need cholesterol to be
transporting testosterone,estrogen, progesterone.
(23:08):
It's a transporter of all thosehormones and we know how
important hormones are forhealth.
And then it's one of the mainmolecules that makes up our
brain.
So this is all off memory soI'm going to see if I can find
it here, but these are the mainpoints.
So protective layers for thebrain, just what the brain is
made out of.
I don't think we have to gointo why your brain is important
(23:30):
.
Speaker 2 (23:32):
But we have to.
Speaker 1 (23:35):
I mean, there's already some brain problems, but
those are the three main thingsthat I always remember of like
what is cholesterol?
What's it do?
Why is it good?
Yes, and it also plays a rolein the transmission of
neurotransmitters.
So, it's very important in yourcentral nervous system.
(23:55):
This has approximately 25% ofthe total amount of cholesterol
present in humans is localizedto the brain organ.
Speaker 2 (24:17):
That's why there's a huge link between statins and
Alzheimer's.
I mean, you are affectingpeople's memories.
I was just going to say, yeah,alzheimer's depression, anxiety,
like a lot of these mentalthings, like that's on a huge
upward trajectory and you wonderwhy people do so well on a
carnivore diet.
Speaker 1 (24:29):
Yeah, why they have better mental clarity.
And what?
Yeah, it's, it's because, oh,you're giving your brain
nutrients it needs.
Speaker 2 (24:36):
And it also says it's key in the production of
vitamin d, which just kind ofbrings brings our topics all
full circle on how much we parton light and vitamin D
production.
Speaker 1 (24:47):
Yeah, that's a huge one that slip Huge one.
Speaker 2 (24:50):
Just trying to connect the dots here, because
vitamin D is one of the waysvitamin D production is one of
the ways you're loweringcholesterol, if cholesterol is
used to produce vitamin D.
So if you don't have lightexposure.
Your body has a reservoir ofcholesterol that it needs to
produce vitamin D.
Speaker 1 (25:07):
You're not getting light exposure.
Speaker 2 (25:08):
So it's never depleting that and that's just
sitting there.
Speaker 1 (25:12):
Yeah, that's a genius statement Because one of the
researchers I've seen they'relike one of the best ways to
lower your cholesterol go out inthe sun.
It will use it up to createvitamin D, but people aren't
going out in the sun.
It will use it up to createvitamin d, but people aren't
going out in the sun I feel likeit's something we don't talk
about you know?
Speaker 2 (25:26):
no, it's cholesterol is like demonized, but it's like
to a point where it's almostlike, oh, I should eliminate
cholesterol completely, which Iguess if your body's producing
most of it and your body canproduce it on its own with a
proper diet, then I guess that'swhy eliminating it is the
mindset, but I feel like wedon't even know what it does.
(25:46):
I mean, like if somebody saidto me what does cholesterol do,
I'd be like I don't know.
It's in my food.
Speaker 1 (25:51):
Right, it's in eggs and I don't want to have a lot
of it.
Speaker 2 (25:54):
Like you know what I mean, Like that's what we're
taught.
Speaker 1 (25:56):
And that's the sad part, because the more research
you do, it really seems likethis is one of the most
important molecules for humansto live well, healthy and
function.
Speaker 2 (26:06):
It's crazy how simple all of it is when you just put
it all together.
Speaker 1 (26:11):
That's why I'm almost wanting to get out of it,
because I'm like it's literallylike, just do these things and
you'll be healthy and I don'twant to argue it.
Speaker 2 (26:23):
But the problem is all the misinformation that's
out there that you're constantlyfighting with.
I know, but that's a freakingbattle.
You can't make money offtelling people go out in the sun
, eat whole foods and just enjoylife like make sure you get 10
000 steps get an hour ofsunlight exposure every day.
I'm super excited for ouradditional parts on this because
(26:44):
it seems like there's a lot touncover because we're told so
little about it.
Speaker 1 (26:49):
It'll be good.
So that was a good mishmash ofjumping around, but hopefully
that gets people excited sowe'll go more into it.
Speaker 2 (26:57):
I know I'm amped up.
Speaker 1 (26:59):
Love it.
Thanks for listening to ourpodcast.
Speaker 2 (27:03):
We hope this helps you on your balance freedom
journey.
Speaker 1 (27:05):
Please share your thoughts in the comments section
below.
Speaker 2 (27:07):
Until next time, stay balanced.
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