Solving Separation Anxiety!

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:01):
Welcome to the show everybody. How are you guys doing?
Doing good, doing good. How about you guys?
I'll just say I like these, likethese cold opens where we just
push the button in the middle ofa sentence and it just starts.
It's kind of fun. I don't know if you get to call
that a cold open. Is that really what a cold open?
I have no idea what a cold open is.
I just it just I said it came out.

(00:22):
What would you call this? I don't know, I guess
interruptive opening. I'm pretty sure.
Like a cold open is like when there's a a like a dialogue or
there's like a monologue. Oh yeah, this is not that.
Not that. Well, it's not interruptive
because he said he was going to start it.
And then I feel like, Nelson, you tried to throw something out
there at the last second to like, throw us off our game.

(00:44):
So I think like you did it. I'm.
Definitely not interruptive. That is true.
Now that you've said that, that is exactly what happened.
As I was pushing, he's like, so did you do this the other day?
Yeah, that's what happened. I did.
That did happen. That absolutely happened.
So how are your days? Anything cool?
What's going on? Let's start with you, Vloss.
What's up in Florida? Why are you wearing pink?

(01:06):
That's new. That is.
New So I felt like we're always just wearing black, which I get
that most of our suburban caninestuff is black, but I felt like
we need to bring some color to the podcast.
So I felt like this is the most colorful shirt I have and that's
why I picked it. Mission accomplished.
Strange that you own that shirt.I'm not going to lie to you.

(01:27):
Why is that? I don't know.
I don't feel like I ever see color on you.
Oh, I look great in pink. I mean, sure, it's a great
complexion. I get it.
I personally. Really goes with my stick and
tevender. But you know, I keep that for
special occasions I could see. Salmon much more than the bright
pink, but to each their own. Is is this really that different

(01:49):
from salmon? Like, I know some people can't
see it because they're just listening, but to me this is
pretty close to salmon. I don't think so.
I don't wear salmon because that's the color of my skin
already. It would just like blend in and
that looks pink to me. I'm convinced that salmon and
pink are the same thing. Salmon would have a little more
orange in it, is that what you're saying?

(02:10):
Like a creamsicle kind of color.Yeah, a little, just lighter
pink. OK.
What about you, Nelson? You're wearing a boring color
like always, Gray. I am wearing one of the greatest
colors ever. OK, suburban canine colors.
And I like it. Have I ever told you that I just
I absolutely love the color pattern or the color palette of
suburban canine? It's.

(02:31):
Perfect. I think we've discussed that.
I'm I'm pretty partial to it as well.
We should make an orange shirt. I'll wear it.
Did you talk about the other choices we had when we picked
these? The let's let's convo that.
What did we say? What?
Let's witty banter that that shirt.
Is that what? You're talking about.
Just our logo in general and ourcolors, like we had a designer

(02:52):
make a bunch of different options, right?
And just in our exact logo, there were, I don't know, maybe
5 or 6 choices. And my favorite besides this one
was like a, a medium blue and sort of like an electric green.
I thought it was really cool. So we were almost that.
And I have one of the shirts. Didn't didn't go that way.

(03:16):
So we have a shirt, Nelson, I'vegot in my closet.
Maybe I'll wear it. It's like an electric blue with
the orange, and it looks pretty sharp.
And we were pretty close. I think that was the second
contender. And then we settled on, I like
boring colors like you do, Nelson.
I was like, you know what? Black or charcoal and orange.
Done. Done.
Perfect. No.

(03:36):
What's been going on in your day?
Tell us anything exciting. I just picked up a German
Shepherd puppy and that is very,very exciting.
It's three months old and it likes to grab people by the
ankle as they walk past. Pretty.
Sounds like a young German Shepherd.
Yeah, for sure, except that thisone does not have separation

(03:56):
anxiety or anything remotely annoying yet.
So super happy about that. That would have been such a good
tie in today's to the episode. That would been great.
It would have been, but it's. Not well.
I filmed a YouTube video today on a dog that steals things,
runs to his cage and then bites the owners if they try to get

(04:17):
him out and I think it turned. It's going to be a good video
and it doesn't need any editing,so I'm going to post it tonight
or tomorrow. But so we shoot this video, the
dog gets the rawhide, hides in the cage.
I had to like slip lead it, get it out, didn't want to drop it.
And you know, a whole whole big thing.
And I end the video and I was explaining like it's not done at
this point. Like the dog looks calm right
now, but if you try to pet him right now, he might bite you,

(04:40):
right? Or you try to walk in front of
him right now, he's still kind of looking at that bone.
He might bite you. So I close on that and Kara was
filming. So she turns off the camera and
like, the clients are standing right there.
And I went to walk in front of the dog.
He made a move for the bone. I stopped him, and then he threw
himself at me and I had to, you know, stop him with the leash.

(05:00):
I was like, this is literally like 10 seconds after the
camera's off. And it would have been so
amazing because it was like exactly what I just pointed out
could happen and then the dog did it.
What kind of dog was it? Big old doodle.
They rescued him and he's just like he'll, he'll turn out fine,
but he's, he's something right now.
I feel like I'm seeing a lot of doodles with crazy behavioral

(05:21):
issues lately. Yeah, dude, this dog eats whole
bananas. He steals bananas off the
counter, runs to the crate and then eats some peel and all.
And then he takes gogurts and like, takes them to his cage and
then eats the wrapper. The whole packet just eats the
yogurt. You said the thing about bananas
like you're surprised he doesn'tpeel them.
Did you think he was going to peel them?

(05:42):
Well I would think he actually wouldn't eat it.
Or like just smash it up like he's eating the entire peel.
Mean monkeys don't do that. I feel like he would have peeled
it. It wouldn't have looked pretty,
but I feel like he would have ripped it to shreds and then
only ate the good part. The sugary part?
Yeah, just like dogs when they crack the eggs and eat the eggs

(06:03):
instead of the shell. Or bunnies when they bite the
head off and then lick, lick theneck hole.
Yeah. All right, well, let's get into
separation anxiety. This was another of your babies,
Nelson. This was another one of.
My or was. It isn't it great that you could
just like throw out an idea of hey, this would be interesting

(06:24):
and boom, it's yours now. I love it, man.
When you're on the Suburban Canine podcast, the sky is the
limit. You say something, it is.
The limit. Yeah, separation.
Exactly. Oh, go for it.
Well, I just want. Could you define it like?
What is it? Is it when when you removed
anxiety from a dog? Is that what it is?
Oh, wow, that's a really good question.

(06:45):
Hey, before we do that, let me throw out, I forgot to mention
we've had some questions on. So I'm on another podcast.
I think we've made mention of ita few times, but having given
the name, I really discussed it.It is called Dog Pro Radio.
It is the official podcast of the IACP, super good show.
I would suggest checking it out or you know, we've had some good

(07:05):
guests. We had Tom Davis on, we've had
Doctor Melanie UDA on. Super interesting.
Some other people that were alsogreat.
We just filmed with Robert Cabral a couple days ago and
that'll be going live either this week or next week.
So some really good guests. Very different than this show
where we're not talking through how to fix problems.
We are talking with experts in the field and seeing what they

(07:27):
want to talk about South very different feel but a lot of fun
and we'll link it in the show notes and it's also a related
show to this so you can find it pretty easy.
But Dog Pro Radio. I got a question about Dog Pro.
Yeah, let's hear it. You guys released 2 episodes
last week within like 20 minutesof each other.
It was super overwhelming. What's?

(07:47):
Up with the Doctor Udo ones. Yeah, it was so overwhelming.
Like Part 2, How are you supposed to listen to two
episodes in like an hour? I'll tell you why that happened.
I don't post them or upload but it happened because the first
one was only an hour and it ended and it was like that was

(08:09):
the loudest. Nelson moved real sneaky to open
a can. Like even I could see him like
purposely trying to not show that his arm is moving and he
literally opens it like 1/4 inchfrom his mic.
That was the loudest thing I've.Ever.
It's like super far away. I I feel like we're all over the
place, but now that you've opened the can, go ahead and
plug your energy. Drink and you're absolutely

(08:31):
correct, it is an energy drink. Today is Ghost.
That's the same one as last. Time.
It's one of my favorites. By made.
I feel like that was subtle. Nelson's like I'm sick of
hearing Covey talk about dog proradio.
Let's get to my energy drink. Let's move this on.
No, actually, I like that podcast.
It's it's fun to listen to whileI'm driving.

(08:53):
So 1 episode was an hour with Doctor ODA.
Way too short. We ended and it was like how did
we only schedule an hour for this?
I think it was just like everyone was busy that day.
We scheduled an hour and it feltso short, so we did another one.
I think the next one is like a couple hours, so it probably
should have just been a three hour one in the first place.
You know, I feel like you guys definitely should have spaced

(09:15):
that out, you know, that way it's like you're hyping them up
for the next one. That was I, yeah, I guess I, you
know, I'm not involved in the posting, but that was an open.
That was a question, right, of when should it be done?
But I think the thought was a lot of people might listen to
the first hour and if they didn't know there's a Part 2, be
like, well, I'm left with more questions than answers.
I don't feel satisfied right now.

(09:36):
And that's the motto of Dog Pro Radio is we will satisfy you as
a listener. You're supposed to do a little
teaser at the end and then drag people along for like a week at
least. That would have been good.
We didn't know it was a 2 parterwhen we filmed it, though.
All right? We figured that out when we got
off and we're like, hey, this isa 2 parter.
That is always kind of a tough question though, right?

(09:57):
Because like, especially these days, everybody's so used to
streaming where you just watch the whole season, you know, in
one run, as opposed to when we were growing up and you actually
had to wait. And then it was summer and you
didn't get a new one for like 9 weeks.
Oh, that was brutal, wasn't it? Yeah.
We might have people mutiny. We're at 10 minutes.

(10:19):
We haven't even talked. We you haven't even defined
separation anxiety yet, like Vloss said.
But what I want to say is what it does when you tease them is
it makes them subscribe. People who listen who haven't
subscribed, they're going to have to subscribe so that they
can then find Part 2 when it's released.
So just so you guys know the audience, we have some awesome
stuff planned, so make sure to subscribe.

(10:42):
Oh wow, we do have some awesome stuff planned.
I'm with you on that. See how I do?
Yeah, there's going to be a Part2 to this video, so make sure
you make sure that you subscribeso that it comes out.
Right now, after a 10 minute opening, I think people might be
like, you know what? How do I not get notified of
Part 2? Maybe Part 2 is where we
actually talk about separation anxiety.

(11:02):
Yeah, there you go. OK.
All right, Nelly. Separation anxieties satisfy the
people. That sounds inappropriate.
So separation anxiety I would define as nervous.

(11:25):
Yeah. Like a nervous feeling that
people or dogs can get when theyare not in the presence of
whatever it is that they fixate on.
So specifically for dogs, it's typically owners or the family.
Sometimes it's just people in general, but where they don't
feel comfortable being alone andthey start to become, you know,

(11:47):
you can't use the word in the definition, but like they start
to get very, very anxious and worried and stressed when.
They're all separated. By themselves, yeah.
Specifically me. So you know specifically when
dogs are separated from me? So I want I'm going to talk
through today how I like to fishfix separation anxiety without

(12:10):
obedience commands. That's actually going to be no.
I do want to throw out there though, I feel the exact
opposite about this. I as I do about resource garden
is fixing separation anxiety without obedience commands to me
would be way harder than resource garden because of the
power of stay and how needed it is, you know?

(12:31):
What I like to do in my life is say I'm going to be contrarian
to someone and then completely agree with them.
So, you know, like the whole, the whole obedience thing.
What we said was that your life would be a little bit harder if
you didn't teach it, but that itis possible to fix some
behaviors where, I don't know, Ifeel like food aggression would

(12:54):
be a little bit tougher than separation anxiety.
Separation anxiety, I feel like you could fix without a stay and
without obedience commands, it would just be forever.
So no, no reasonable person would do that much training.
And I feel like that's where most people kind of failed,
right? And and that's why as a trainer,

(13:14):
we would have to do obedience commands because no one's going
to pay us long enough to actually fix it without.
And it's not fair to the dog with what the weight would look
like. So yeah, this one.
To me, obedience is basically essential.
Yeah, especially they like the heel is crucial.
Yeah. And then back to definitions.

(13:36):
I like your definition, Nelson. But what I would like when I'm
dealing with a client we have and I know you see the same
thing. We have no idea what they mean
when they say separation anxietybecause it could mean literally
anything and it could run the gambit from I am upstairs and my
dog's barking because he wants to see what I'm doing to he is
in the crate and he has broken his teeth and there's like thick

(13:59):
mucousy saliva, giant puddles ofit when I come back and he's
like wild eyed, panting, franticand or breaks out and hurts
himself or whatever. And then everything in between.
And I think as people listen today, we really need to make
sure we're making it clear what level of anxiety we're talking
about because there's it's really runs the gambit here.

(14:22):
Yeah, I think that's a a fairpoint to make for sure.
And you know, the the symptoms Iguess are usually kind of
consistent. It's just to what crazy degree
did one dog get to versus another?
So typically you're going to hear a lot of barking, a lot of

(14:44):
vocalization, sometimes not barking, it's just whining or,
or crying. Drooling is one that I see all
the time. It's it's probably one of the
bigger indicators of whether it's like the fear of missing
out. They just they want to be by you
because they're nosy or bored asopposed to actually feeling
anxious. Breaking their teeth is

(15:06):
definitely one I say breaking out of the cage and in any way,
right, any kind of attempt. So pacing or clawing at a a cage
or trying to, you know, bite it open or even doors, right.
So whenever I think about it, I typically do think about it in a
crate. But if you don't use a crate,
you know they'll they'll be scratching at the doors and
they'll be trying to bite their way through.

(15:29):
So you pointed out their fear ofmissing out, but fear of missing
out itself isn't separation anxiety, right?
Like to me, the symptoms you were presenting start to show
separation anxiety, but fear of missing out itself isn't.
And then the other term that I hear thrown around there that I
think you could sort of correlate with fear of missing

(15:51):
out would be like a Velcro dog. So like, is a Velcro dog
automatically going to have separation anxiety?
I don't think so, you know, I guess it's motivation, you know,
is the motivation getting to someone or something to eat, you

(16:12):
know, calm their mind or get away from, you know, again, the
stress that they're feeling or is it, I don't know, I, I say
more playful, but maybe that's not the right word.
But is it just, hey, sounds likeyou're having fun and I'm not
and I'm kind of pissy about the whole situation, but I'm not
necessarily so stressed or fearful that I, I think I'm

(16:33):
going to die or something. I'm just bored.
That's usually kind of how I would split that up.
So what's hard is it runs the gambit, right?
Just like reactivity where you can, like we talked about, you
can have a dog who's reactive onleash according to the owner.
And the dog just pulls and is really excited to see new dogs

(16:55):
all the way up to the dog that like actually wants to kill
another dog, right? And they say it's reactive and
then you find out it's highly aggressive.
So when you know, trying to figure out when I, when I see a
new client and they say my dog is separation anxiety, it
doesn't really matter if it is separation anxiety or not,
right? It's like, do we create a good
plan for them? I'll generally tell them if the

(17:16):
dog is just barking when they goupstairs, I'll tell him like,
that's not separation anxiety, that's just he's demanding that
he wants to be with you, he likes you and he wants to be up
there and see what you're doing.And that's going to be easy to
fix. And then when I see what I
consider real separation anxiety, which is has to some
level of anxious fear, then I'lltell him like, this is actually

(17:38):
separation anxiety and it's luckily fairly minor or
unfortunately it's, you know, extreme.
It's going to be a lot of work to fix.
You know. Sure can be in some ways it
doesn't matter much. But I would say today maybe we
rule out the ones that are not separation anxiety.
You know, the dog who's just like barking when the owner's
upstairs, Or the Velcro dog and talk through dogs with actual

(18:01):
separation anxiety. Yeah, for sure.
But I think it was worth, you know, like separating them
because again, for a lot of, I don't know so much about the
listeners, but definitely a lot of our clients do have a
difficulty kind of separating the two or or at least being
able to kind of correctly diagnose which one's happening.
Is my dog just kind of being a punk, or is my dog actually

(18:25):
worried about the fact that it'sleft alone?
Yeah. I just want to throw out there
that there are a ton of Velcro dogs that would not have any
symptoms of separation anxiety whatsoever.
Agreed. Curl up on the old couch and be
like no, I'm good here until youget back.

(18:46):
Yep. Well, Nelson, what percentage of
dogs, when you come in for separate separation anxiety, are
already on drugs? I would say, you know, thirty
4050%, you know, I think it's pretty darn common.
And even if not prescribed, you know, like the CBD gummies are

(19:08):
starting to make a huge come, you know, I guess not a
comeback, but they're starting to make a huge presence for what
I call kind of normal people, right?
And so it seems like everybody'strying to do something or I
remember the Thunder jackets. You remember those those.
Used. To be a really, really common
calming diffusers. Yeah, I just saw Nick one, one

(19:33):
of the trainers with Suburban Canine.
He tagged me in a post of one ofthe new diffusers of the
hundreds and of different diffusers that are out there.
So are we talking about all those things as a part of
medication or are we singling out like pharmaceutical meds?

(19:54):
I. Think that's a good question.
Because if, if we're talking about all those other things as
well, I'd say 85% of dogs are using something.
I agree with Nelson that probably like in my mind, I was
going to say 45% if we're talking just pharmaceuticals.

(20:14):
Yeah, it's crazy how how common,you know, the pharmaceutical
stuff is, is kind of there. It's, you know, for some vets
it's the answer for everything, right?
You know, I feel like it gets prescribed quite a bit.
And that's what frustrates me when it's been, there's no
training plan, there's no anything.
The dogs just put on Clomacom orProzac or something and he's on

(20:37):
it for six months and then they call the trainer and they're
like, he's on this drug and it hasn't fixed it.
And like, big surprise, like I if, if you could just put the
dog in Clomacom and this disappeared, then, you know,
everybody would do it and there wouldn't be separation anxiety
anymore. So I don't know if I've ever
talked to someone who said yeah,like it fixed the problem.

(21:00):
It is pretty crazy the the mind frame that they are all in
though. I agree with you completely.
I've never seen anyone using anything you know, whether it's
the Thunder shirts, the diffusers, the CBD gummies, the
actual pharmaceuticals or anything like that.
I've never come to a house, talked to the people and they
say hey, you know, my vet told me to use these and that way we

(21:25):
could start training. It's always this didn't work and
so now we need to try something else.
Yeah. The only ones I've seen that say
start train, you know when they meet with a veterinary
behaviorist and they pay $500, they get their prescription to
their drugs and then the the veterinary behaviorist says,

(21:46):
Yep, your dog has separation anxiety, kind of already knew
that. He broke out of his cage and
destroyed the house and shit everywhere.
So he has separation anxiety andyou should go find a trainer to
train with because I don't do training.
I'm a veterinary behaviorist. I'll tell you what the behavior
is though. So one thing I'd throw out there

(22:07):
though, you know, while we're being somewhat negative to these
things, what I generally tell myclients is like, if you're
starting to see that any of these things help you, I don't
think there's that much of a problem with using them.
Now the pharmaceuticals themselves, I think you should
definitely be working away from,but things like Thunder Shirt or
a diffuser, I don't think those are as big of a deal to

(22:30):
necessarily try and work away from.
Now with all of them, I still think you need to train the dog
through it, right? So, and that's what you guys
were saying, but I'd also just throw out there.
I don't tell somebody like, oh, get rid of that diffuser.
That's junk. It doesn't do anything.
Get rid of the Thunder shirt. That's never going to help the
dog, right? If you see some of those things
helping them, I don't think there's any problem with using

(22:50):
them. And then when we get to the
pharmaceuticals that I feel a little bit different, but all
the other ones, I think if if itworks, try it.
So I agree, actually, I agree completely specifically because
we excluded the pharmaceutical side.
But yeah, I mean, there's reallyno downside to using a diffuser.
There's already a little bit of training you're supposed to do

(23:13):
with the Thunder shirt and I'm I'm game.
Even if it does absolutely nothing, it's not ruining the
training and the slightest. So if it makes people feel
better, go for. It am I the only one picturing
Vloss in like a bright pink Thunder shirt?
You aren't now. You know this one sort of loose,

(23:36):
so it's not anything like a. Thunder, right?
But I'm picturing you like in a bright pink mesh Thunder shirt.
I'll work on getting that. I'd love it.
So you know, as far as the drugsgo, when I have a client, you
know the the dog comes in and that it's already on drugs.
I don't tell them you should getthe dog off drugs right away.
I think we should at that point just start training and figure

(23:56):
it out from there. What frustrates me is how it
quickly dogs get put on drugs, right?
And I'm sure I don't have a percentage I could give you.
I'm sure there's a small subset that should be and it is
helpful, but not the not the levels that were seen.
And I feel the same way about children.
The number of kids that are put on some sort of drug is

(24:17):
absolutely insane. And I'm sure there are some that
for sure need it, but not 30% orwhatever that you know the
percentage is. It's crazy.
So I don't advocate for people to get off of it right away, but
I just wish they would try training first because dogs have
been around for a really, reallylong time without needing drugs.
And we have to look at it and say, how much of This Is Us

(24:41):
creating this problem as humans,right?
I mean, we're not exercising them.
We're putting them in a cage toomuch.
We're not giving it. We're not training them.
We're not. And I'm saying we I'm using that
loosely because I mean, me, but a lot as a society, that's what
we're doing. And then we're like, why?
He's got bad separation anxiety,Like he's getting literally
nothing a dog needs in his day-to-day life.

(25:02):
And then big surprise, like there's some fallout from that.
I mean, I think that's 100%, right.
I mean, like we as society or asthe humans in the relationship
are 100% responsible for the anxiety and really kind of all
anxiety, right? There's a, there's a little bit

(25:23):
of a Gray area maybe for aggression, just because, you
know, the stock that we started with was also aggressive, you
know, so like how much can you really get rid of that?
But I, I really do think, I mean, from from the breeding to
the socializing to, you know, just raising up your dog in
general, because it's not alwayspuppies, right?
Could be any dog. We're we're certainly at fault.

(25:47):
And the way that we kind of moremodern society treats dogs, it
absolutely kind of caters to having more behavioral issues
and then which really props up all of the medicine.
And obviously as soon as you getmoney into it, you know, like

(26:07):
doctors start pushing stuff. I mean, it's for sure we're to
blame, no question. Nelson bring it in the can the
doctor conspiracy. Big Pharma.
Big Pharma, no question. Lost, looking like you were
going to say something. Well, I think you guys also
touched on what I think is the number one contributor to to

(26:30):
separation anxiety and it would be the increase in people
working from home. So, you know, you said we're
making an environment that's farmore likely to cause this or
these issues to start to happen.I think I've seen with that
shift, especially around COVID, I mean, you have the COVID dogs,
but the increase in separation anxiety because people are
always around their dogs has just gone through the roof.

(26:53):
So I agree with you that that's a factor, but I'd say a bigger
factor, and I think everyone's going to agree with me here,
would be red dye #40 it's like we know that is a big look at
the charts as the, as we've usedmore red dye 40 as a society,
the cases of separation anxiety have gone up.

(27:15):
The charts are just correlated perfectly.
You know, it's like it's a big talking point for the kids
school and all the teachers are advocating that you don't send
them with any kind of snacks or anything like that with red dye
40. So let's talk.
What dog products is red dye 40 in?
I mean, I would think like the Kong traditional, I mean that's

(27:35):
really red. So it's got to have red dye 40.
Bag and strips. Bag and strips.
Do you know that or you just guessing?
I'm just guessing, yeah, I'm going just like bloss.
I'm going for anything that's red.
Although apparently, you know, like it's not even just things
that are colored red. Apparently Doritos Cool Ranch,
which I always attribute to the color blue is also have the red

(28:00):
dye 40. There's little red specks on
them I feel. Like just little chunks of dye.
We're not even dying food. They're just like throwing
chunks of dye on it. Eat this and enjoy it.
And that's the separation. They make that out of the bugs.
What'd you say? They make that out of the out of
the bugs, right? They make that out of the mites.

(28:20):
Red dye 40. Isn't that the one?
I think it's like petroleum based.
I think it was out of bugs. Wouldn't it probably be healthy?
Well. I don't know.
Apparently you take a bunch of these mites, you grind them up,
and then use that as food coloring.
That sounds like an organic foodcoloring.
It does sound organic. Maybe you're maybe you're onto

(28:41):
something. Maybe that's what they were
supposedly. Using they use beet juice a lot
for the healthier ones. But let's get into separation
anxiety. So we've somewhat defined it.
We've talked about we're only going to talk about serious
ones. We've talked about drugs.
Nelson, you get a call and you show up and it's separation
anxiety and what's your it's real separation anxiety And I

(29:02):
don't know if we have to get crazy specific, but dog is
salivating, barking, trying to break out of its crate.
Like you've identified it's a real problem.
What are like, what are your go to techniques?
What are you working on? First one, no surprise here is
definitely going to be healed and not just for separation

(29:25):
anxiety because, you know, realistically for most dogs, I
wouldn't say all, but for most dogs, if they have separation
anxiety, they're also either anxious in other areas or
they're very, very pushy and very, very naughty and other,
you know, excitable situations. And so sometimes it's just kind
of worth fixing some of those stuff.

(29:46):
So our first house call, we're doing heel, we're getting the
dogs to start walking nicely, calm down.
It depending on how bad it is. You know, I've had some clients
that are like, this is my only issue.
I don't even really want to talkabout anything other than
separation anxiety, and in whichcase we spend most of the lesson
on that. It doesn't even have to be the

(30:08):
best heal at all is, you know, me muscling more than the dog
actually healing. But just getting the dog on a
leash and walking slower with us, we can help out quite a bit.
So let's pause there for a SEC. What's that Bloss?
And don't discredit, heal is notsomething to work on separation

(30:28):
anxiety itself because in the most severe cases just walking
the dog away from the owner who it has the separation anxiety
towards could be a absolutely huge exercise.
So getting the dog healing well is is very important and good
for lots of things, but it also can directly tie into the
anxiety. Itself.

(30:49):
Yeah. And what I was going to throw
out there is just to expand whatNelson said.
Very, very few dogs with separation anxiety are calm
dogs. I can count the number on one
hand where you get that like 8 year old dog who's calm all the
time unless the people leave, almost always it's like there's
so much to fix and you're, as you know, the trainer's

(31:13):
listening. I'm sure I've seen that and know
that you you have to start with the calmness and that's going to
take a lot of time because if the dog is not calming at peace
99% of his day, he's not going to be calming at peace when the
owner leaves. And, and think about that, you
know, what I see is these are dogs that are spoiled.

(31:35):
These are dogs that are really, really focused on, you know,
the, the owners are or the family or whoever loves to
cuddle on these dogs and show a ton of affection, probably play
really fast-paced games like fetch or if, if they can even
get the ball back, you know, that kind of stuff.
These are kind of driven dogs that are weighted on hand and

(31:58):
foot. And that's, you know, in, in my
mind, kind of a good assessment that if I get to the house and I
see that, you know, these dogs are kind of treated this way and
they tell me that it has separation anxiety, I tend to
believe it as opposed to like, you know, some dogs you get
there. And I'm like, I bet he's just
being kind of a punk, you know, here.

(32:20):
These really, really drive your dogs.
I'm like, I, I believe it. He probably does have crazy
separation anxiety. Agreed.
So where I open is what I explained to the client is, you
know, the dog, it sounds obvious, but let's just say it
in different words, like separation anxiety.
The dog is not calm when you leave, right?

(32:42):
And like, of course, yeah, that's that's the issue.
And the reason I like to frame it that way is we can't tell the
dog, well, you need to be happy when the owner leaves.
You need to be happy in your cage, right?
Like, well, I guess we could tell him that, but it's probably
not going to be very useful. So all we can do is make the dog
calm when you leave and he's going to become happy through
time because he's happy. Or if he's calm in that

(33:04):
environment, then he's going to be happy, right?
Because he's going to do his hisnormal thing, chew his bones,
sleep, whatever it is he does. So don't focus.
It doesn't mean we can't do things to make him happy, but
just think about it that way. We're trying where it's a bunch
of calming techniques that we'regoing to use both when you're
there and when you're gone to keep him calm when you're gone.
And the happiness will come through time.

(33:26):
And of course, there are exercises we're doing to make
the crate a positive place and make it not scary.
But those alone are like almost never enough.
You know, 1% of the time, maybe like, the things you do to make
the crate exciting and happy areenough.
And 99% of the time you're focusing on calmness.
You know, I agree. One of the things that I've

(33:46):
noticed that I do, and you certainly do as well, is we
always involve the crate. Even when I think about
separation anxiety, it's like I'm thinking of an anxious dog
in the crate. It's just kind of, you know,
synonymous to me. But when we actually get to the
house call, I mean, sometimes there is no crate.

(34:07):
And do you think it could be solved without one?
It can be, but I mean, I tell the client I I don't like that
option because if we have a proper crate that we can keep
him in, we know we can train himto stay in that crate and
there's nothing in that crate toingest.
And if we leave them, there's AImean.

(34:29):
So yes, it could be done right with cameras and time.
Sure, if you've got all day to dedicate to it and you don't
have a job and you could for sure you can do it without a
crate. But how many times do we have a
client who's like, yes I've got 8 hours a day I'll set up
cameras and I literally never have to go anywhere that'll
involve me not rushing back instantly?
For sure. So I think the two main

(34:52):
important. I think the two main points
there are that it's safer, and then the other thing is that the
crate brings the issue to the forefront, which makes it easier
for you to work on, right? It elicits the behavior, which
then makes it easier for you to set up and work on.
That's a good way to put in thatand I don't I don't explain it
that way nearly enough so. Well, you will now.

(35:14):
I will now for sure. OK, so you teach this dog heel,
so that's good. We all know heel is calming.
What next? Depending on how bad I think the
dog is, if the dog is, you know,if they're describing to me,
hey, teeth are breaking, paws are bleeding because the dog is

(35:36):
so freaked out about the crate that, you know, like it's
willing to hurt itself. And to be fair, you know, with
real separation anxiety, I mean that that's a real thing.
Then I would probably start withsitting down.
And the reason I say sitting down is because, you know, we
use it to get to down and probably a stay or a place

(35:59):
command because one of the things I really, really want to
start getting to is creating that separation even without the
use of any kind of true barrier yet.
So if I can get the dog to hold down, stay across the room and
not be allowed to kind of get inby the owner or in a different

(36:23):
room where they can still see us, like if it's in the kitchen
but we're in the living room, you know, that kind of deal.
Anything that can start getting to the point which is being calm
at a distance away from the owner so that when we do start
bringing in that crate, I can actually start utilizing some of
those same commands in the crate.

(36:45):
You know, having them go in there and laying down and then
starting to close the door, you know, that kind of stuff.
But if it's not, you know, that bad, if it's not that severe, if
it's not, you know, teeth breaking kind of severity, then
I'll actually just start healingthe dog and getting them to go
into the crate and then stoppingthem from coming out either with

(37:08):
the door, with my leg, somethinglike that.
And just kind of pausing, right?And then you pull them out, you
appraise them at an appropriate level, and then you keep trying
it again. And that is what you started to
talk about with the down stay and maybe out of sight down
stays. That's where I feel like
obedience is actually essential for separation anxiety because

(37:29):
we're trying to create calmness,resource guarding.
We're trying to create don't bite me, right?
Very different. It can stop them from biting me
many times. And I'm not asking you to do
anything besides don't bite me when I take this thing away from
you. But separation anxiety, we're
asking them to be calm, and that's a whole different thing.
So I'm with you on that for sure.
I'd like to just make a little distinction when I'm asking

(37:53):
questions with a client, you know, to figure out how severe
this is to me. One of the biggest things you
mentioned earlier, Nelson, spit in the cage or drool.
I ask the client, is there droolor spit in the cage?
And if they say yes, then I ask what kind of drool and spit.
And it makes a big difference. And this is for all the, I
guess, dog nerds listening. If it's more like dry spittle,

(38:16):
that to me worries me much less than when it's like thick, like
mucus viscosity drool. And the reason for that is the
drool is coming from anxiety. If you have a dog that you put
in the crate and he's standing there drooling, that is true
anxiety. And that would be higher on my
list of a dog where I think, youknow, drugs might make sense
here in conjunction with our training when it's that dry

(38:39):
spittle, even if they've broken teeth.
Like I picture when you were saying that earlier, I'm
picturing A Malinois that's like, I just don't want to be in
this crate. But he's not anxious.
He's just like, I want to do something and he's willing to
shred it to get his way out. But then he gets out and he's
like, now what? And goes and does something
else. That dog is going to be so much

(39:00):
easier to train and so much easier to fix than the dog who
is like the thick mucously droolbecause you can't correct that
away. You know, we have to get rid of
the anxiety versus the Malinois.There's a chance when he just
learns you're not going to tolerate him smashing the side
of the crate. He's like, all right, I guess.
I guess I'll go to sleep now all.
Right. Whole different.

(39:21):
So to me, sometimes there are things like that where I look at
him like that's not really separation anxiety, that's just
a high drive dog that ones out and he's willing to use his paws
and his teeth and his muzzle to make his way out.
Yeah, I think that's a good point.
And you actually, you brought upsomething that I wrote down here
for, Yeah, in my notes. It's what does it look like?

(39:43):
What does the separation anxietylook like?
And one of the things that I puthere to kind of separate it from
like FOMO or something like thathigh Dr. Malinois, is actually
exhaustion. You know, usually when you have
that thick drool and you have the dogs that have been panting
and whining and crying and pacing and trying to break out,

(40:04):
if it's anxiety and they're kindof spiraling, you know, they're
exhausted by the time you come home.
You come home to a dog that is worn out in a pool of of
hopefully it's just spit and it's not pee and poop all over
the place. But then you let them out and
they're excited for like 2 minutes and they are.

(40:26):
Just cashed, you know, they, they need to go lay down and
fall asleep somewhere because they've been panicking that
entire time where you'll have a high drive dog who might have
had some spit, you know, and definitely some barking because
they heard you coming. But then they're excited to play
with you, you know, like they'reexcited.
You're like, hey, let's go for awalk, let's go do this, let's go
do that. This is going to be awesome.

(40:47):
And it's probably because they got tired, decided it wasn't
worth barking and crying anymore, and then started up
again because they heard you coming.
And so there's a huge difference.
Just kind of like, did it last the entire time you were gone
and the dog is just that worked up?
Or again, is it just more of a bored dog?

(41:08):
So you guys have talked a lot about symptoms, but one I
haven't heard you talk about that I think a lot of clients
bring up is accidents. So either in the crate or not in
the crate, you know the people are gone.
The dog has an accident and theysaid, I know that they did it
because of separation anxiety and they're just getting back at
me. He went on my bed.

(41:29):
He smeared it all over the place.
It has to be separation anxiety.Do you guys think potty
accidents are usually tied in ornot tied in?
You know, I think I think it is when when I see like real
separation anxiety kind of dogs,the accidents aren't nearly as

(41:52):
common as everything else that we talked about.
What I have seen is where it's happening in the house and not
in a crate and then they go to the bathroom somewhere.
But how much of that is just, you know, like they were running
around goofing off and then had to go to the bathroom, stop to
go to the bathroom to kind of continue Where I see separation

(42:13):
anxiety and a crate, it's usually they've worked
themselves up so much that they kind of relieve themselves.
So it, it definitely happens. It's it's an attributing factor
for sure, but it just doesn't seem to be as consistent of a of
a symptom that I see some of theother stuff like like the
drooling, like the clawing and everything else.

(42:36):
I really want to hear your thoughts on this one.
Mine's not good enough apparently.
I would say Tamesh is not that relevant.
So if they said, well, he had a bowel movement in the cage and I
would ask is it diarrhea or solid?
And if they said it's solid, like if he's excited, that gets
their bowels going. So if he's like pacing around

(42:58):
and if he's like just like a human, if you're asleep, you
don't have to go to the bathroomand then you wake up, you go for
a jog, then you probably do. So if the dog's pacing around
the crate or the house, he's more likely to have to go.
And I say I'd say it's not conscience says it's not like
I'm deciding to go. He's just he needs to go.
If he has diarrhea every day andthere's but never diarrhea on

(43:18):
Saturday and Sunday and it's only in the crate, then yeah,
that sounds like stress is causing that.
Once again, he's not choosing todo it.
And peeing, I would say is probably going to be irrelevant.
Like if he's lifting his leg andpeeing out of the crate, you
know, it doesn't really sound like he's super anxious to do
that, right? And So what I would say to me,

(43:39):
it's not all that important whatit is because it's not even
going to be part of our trainingplan, you know, and it's not
going to affect our training plan in one way or the other.
I think the interesting point there that when I do ask, I
agree, I don't typically ask like, well, how often is it or
anything like that? But I will ask if there's any
kind of blood in the, in the poop, you know, if the dog is

(44:00):
pooping because, you know, that's just high stress and that
that kind of lends itself a little bit more towards the, the
anxiety as opposed to just beingexcited and working up a poop.
And overall, the reason I said it to me, it's not that
important is if the dog's havinga bowel movement in the crate,
if it's because he's anxious, well, if we fix the anxiety,

(44:23):
then it goes away. And if it's just because he's
walking around a ton, well, as soon as he's calmer, he's going
to sleep and then it goes away. So most likely, now, of course,
if there's blood in it, maybe wewant to check something else
out, have him go to the vet. But most of the time, I feel
like it's just not going to be that relevant.
Then I would tell the client, like, we can talk about this for
as long as you want to, of course, right?
But if we fix the separation issues, I think this bathroom

(44:47):
stuff is going to be fixed on its own.
OK, so we've talked through you're going to put a leash on,
you're going to teach them heal,then you're going to teach them
down stay. And you said a little bit about
this, but just to expand some for people, we'd be doing down
stays out of sight, however longit takes.
I'm assuming you'd be, I guess you'd be doing that, Nelson,
however long it takes. That we can put them in a down

(45:08):
stay, go in the kitchen and cookdinner, put them in a down stay,
walk out of the front door and he holds his down stay.
Put him in a down stay, get yourkeys and go and start your car
and back out of the driveway andcome back and make sure he's in
the down stay I in you. If you haven't done this before,
you hear that and you're like, but what if he gets up?
What if he does this? What if he does that?

(45:30):
Well, we need to find a way to keep an eye on him and know when
he's getting up. So probably going to be cameras
of some sort. And there's so many different
ways now that everyone has like Ring cameras and those, it's a
lot easier than it used to be where it was like set up your
laptop and have a Zoom call to your phone.
Now it's much simpler. But without a doubt, hammer that

(45:51):
down stay until you can put yourdog in some challenging
scenarios in the house and they're able to hold it with you
walking off, but you have to know they're still in the down
stay. Yeah, so I didn't mention out of
sight, I mentioned distance. But understanding that out of
sight and away from you is is the goal for sure, you know?
It's just. Where are you starting?

(46:13):
You know, are you starting from a super highly well trained dog,
which is not likely? Or are you starting with the dog
that couldn't hold it for 10 seconds even if they wanted to?
For sure. OK, So we do all this training,
they're healing well. They're sit, they're doing these
sit, stays, down, down, stay. We're doing come as well.
Because anything we can do to get this dog calmer and

(46:36):
listening and able to pay attention to us, the better.
We've done our out of sight downstairs, we're leaving the
house. All of that's going well.
What next? What I would start to do if
assuming that all of that stuff is going good, you know, all of
the obedience commands are goinggood.
I absolutely have to move into the crate.

(46:57):
And that's where we start doing downstairs in the crate, door
open and just making them comfortable with being inside
the crate and understanding thatthe crate isn't, isn't the thing
stopping them from getting to you.
Then you start closing the door and you start going out of sight
or, or leaving, you know, depending on how far you are.

(47:20):
At some point you're going to have to start correcting certain
behaviors though. And so once we get to the crate,
we start getting into some of that like barking and howling,
not a stress whine, but specifically barking and
howling. You have to be able to correct
some of the symptoms so that youcan get to the root problem,

(47:42):
which is the anxiety in the 1st place.
You know if if they're. Can I interject for a second?
But then I want I want you to goback to this for sure because I
think that's important. So you were talking about the
crate. I just want to throw out, you
know, before we do this or at the same time, and I alluded to
this earlier, we also want to create positives with the crate.
And this is not going to fix theissue at there's not like almost

(48:05):
no chance it's going to fix it, but it's worth doing.
Find ways to get your dog in thecrate that are not bad.
So get them in the crate and youknow, feed them every meal on
the crate. I don't see why you wouldn't do
that. Super easy to do.
There's literally no downside. If there's even a chance it
helps, why not do it? I would also if you, if he
likes, if there's high value things to him like a marrow

(48:28):
bone, well, maybe he only gets the marrow bone in the crate and
not, it doesn't have to be when you're gone, but like you're
home, you put him in the crate, you shut the door and you sit on
the couch 10 feet away and watchTV and he gets his really good
bone in the crate. Build up some experiences and
it's most likely not going to fix it, but it's going to help.
And it's all so easy to do. I think it's crazy not to and.

(48:48):
I think there's a couple of things.
I mean, those examples are definitely fantastic, starting
to change how they feel about the crate, but also a, another
thing that you can do that will make the training easier, even
if it's not specifically part ofthe training is tiring the dog
out. You know, hey, if I know I'm

(49:09):
going to be working on this stuff for the next, you know,
half an hour, I'll go play fetch, tire of the dog out.
Just make it a little bit easierfor the training.
Kind of exactly the same mind frame that we would be thinking
about when it comes to diffusers, Thunder shirts or or
medicine, you know, any of that kind of stuff.
Yeah. I mean, there's a lot to talk
about with exercise. Do we want to do this and get

(49:31):
back to your corrections later? Do you want to talk exercise?
Because I think this is a huge part of the the training plan.
Let's go for it. Go ahead.
OK, so to me, there's two types here.
There's daily exercise that's going to fix, you know, make
your dog better just in general.And then there's the extra
exercise we're going to do the first time we leave the dog in

(49:52):
the crate and actually leave thehouse. 2 very different things,
right? One is daily basis basically
forever or at least for six months or some long period of
time. And the other is a very short
term thing to get the dog extra tired before you leave.
So what you were saying earlier,I think the start would be the

(50:13):
daily exercise that we're going to do every day.
And I would figure out with the client, build an exercise plan
for the dog. And obviously that's going to be
breed and age specific and health and you know, all of
those different things and temperament.
But I can almost guarantee it's going to be a lot more than what
the owner's currently doing. And I would be stressed.
This isn't morning exercise program.

(50:33):
We need to start our day right with a lot more exercise.
And just to for people listening.
If I just had to make something up, if it's like a 2 year old
lab super anxious going nuts in the crate, I'm probably going to
recommend, I would guess 45 minutes to an hour of exercise
in the morning and it might be half heel walk, 30 minutes of
that and 30 minutes of fetch or something, you know, more

(50:56):
exciting. I just heard on a dog pro radio
podcast the doctor say that 25 minutes of trotting is ideal
exercise. I did hear that too, but did you
also hear, so you guys know I'm not a big social media person,
that there is like something going around the Internet about
how fetch is bad for your dog and creates bad behavior in a

(51:19):
dog? I have not, but I can agree.
That's a conversation we had. And like, I I mean, it could
agree. I could agree.
It depends how you do it. And is this the only thing you
do with your dog? Then?
Yeah. If you have a Jack Russell and
literally the only thing you do is play fetch with them, he's
going to become a little monster.

(51:40):
For sure, right, Yeah, exactly. And it's a similar concept to
like tug of war, right? If that's the only thing that
you're doing, yeah, you're you're going to be causing some
some pretty bad behaviors. But this is a point that I love
to make and I'd be interested tosee if you guys ever disagree.
Which would be the order of operations.

(52:03):
Anytime it comes to exercise I like to get the explosive,
exciting and crazy stuff done 1st and then end on a walk.
So if I'm trying to tire my dog out, just even for the daily
stuff, but specifically when it comes to that short term that

(52:24):
you were talking about, man, like I will definitely make sure
I'm playing fetch first, gettingthem super tired and all of that
stuff. And then I will do the 15 to
half an hour of heal just so that they have a chance to cool
off and calm down and not still be feeling the residual
excitement of fetch or tug of war, kind of anything like that.

(52:49):
If we're given our ideals, I think mine is like heel to a
park, open area, that kind of thing.
You know, if you have more than one dog, let the two dogs play
and run for 15 or 20 minutes andthen heel back.
And the combination of that I think works really well for for
wearing them out. If you have one dog, then you'd
be playing fetch or something like that in the open area.

(53:12):
But I like that sort of combo approach where you break it up
like that. That's decent.
I'll tell board and train peoplethat all the time too, so that
makes sense. I'd just break it up into 10
minute chunks. 10 walking, 10 vigorous 10/10/10 10:10 walking.

(53:33):
10 slightly vigorous play. Is that the rule of 10s?
That's exactly what it is. Yeah.
So we do all this exercise on a daily basis to make our dog
calmer. That's good.
We heal. That seems good.
Down, down, stay. All this obedience, out of
sight, down stays. We make the crate more positive
with some food and treats and high value toys in the crate,

(53:57):
and then we start leaving them. And Nelson is in discipline mode
now. But before we get into
discipline, I feel like you keepburying a lead with the whole
leaving thing, like you're not making a big deal of it.
And I think it is a big deal. People need to understand that
you want to set up leaving the house, right?
You want to act like you're doing it, but not actually doing

(54:20):
it. To me, the whole leaving thing
is a fairly important step all on its own.
I'm with you. I figured that was part of what
we're talking about now, but yes, it's that's.
A lot I was thinking too. But well then, let's let Nelson
go. Step on my head while I'm
drowning, all right? Hey I'm just trying to help.
No, but you're, you're absolutely correct, right.

(54:41):
Setting this situation up, especially if you know it's not
going to go perfect because you know, again, we're training at
this point, definitely don't actually leave.
A lot of the times we're talkingabout I put the dog in a crate
and I just went behind a door. I have full access to run in

(55:02):
there if I need to. And a lot of the reason why we
do these setups is because therehas to be some corrections for
the symptoms that the dogs are displaying because if they keep
practicing that it's going to keep them kind of spiraling out
out of control. So again, definitely has to be

(55:24):
the barking. Typically my rules are I don't
want the dogs barking or whiningor anything like that.
Stress wine is involuntary so wedon't correct that, but there's
ways to tell the difference. Any type of breaking out of the
crate has to be corrected. Any type of, you know, like when

(55:44):
it comes to pacing around or anything like that, that's when
we specifically go in there and work on that down, getting the
dogs to be able to actually holdthat, not necessarily a
downstate. I don't like to say the word
stay just because I'm not there to free it up and I don't want
to goof around with that too much, but I'll, I'll tell them
to lay down because I want them to start relaxing and getting

(56:05):
tired. Yeah, pretty much those.
So breaking out, making a ton ofnoise, or pacing around are all
things that I would start to correct so that the dogs can
relax enough to become calm. So the way I explain, I agree

(56:25):
with you Nelson, the way I explain that to a client is we
are not correcting anxiety, but we will correct the behaviors we
don't like. And to me, that's a big
difference. If the dog is whining, they're
laying there whining. There's no way I'm correcting
that. But when they make a choice to
howl, bark, paw bite, I want to stop that.

(56:47):
And we're not telling them don'tbe anxious.
We're saying don't do that. And what's really, really
important and one reason why we've never come up done like a
short YouTube video or somethingon separation anxiety is if you
don't do all the other stuff first, well, then you're being
pretty cruel to your dog. If you're not exercising your
dog and giving them some structure and teaching them to

(57:10):
feel calm and making the create a positive place and doing all
these other things and you put them in and just correct them.
That's super unfair. Then I think that's worth
mentioning because the purely positive crowd would of course
say like you're correcting a dogfor anxiety, that's going to
make him more anxious and he's going to be terrified.
It's going to be terrible and awful and mean.
But that's not what you're doing.

(57:31):
You're taking, you're doing weeks of work to get the dog
ready for this and then you're never correcting the anxiety.
It's kind of like saying, hey, you're the dog is biting people
because he's fearful. So don't correct him when he
bites. Like, no, we're going to correct
him when he bites, but we're notgoing to correct him for being
fearful. If he's like standing there and
he's nervous and he's backing away from the other person,

(57:53):
yeah, I'm not going to correct that.
But he makes an effort to bite him, you better believe we're
going to correct. And to me, that's what this is.
And I've never had a client not get this, but I know the
distinction. But I know like the purely
positive crowd would love to take it and run with it, right.
And like you're, you're going tofix a, you know, anxiety with
correcting. Not at all.

(58:14):
We're going to do all the other stuff, but we are certainly
going to correct the manifestations and the barking
and the the actions we don't care for.
And it's going to make a big difference in the dog.
Yeah. And that's actually a really,
really good distinction because even even in the face of even if
you were talking to someone who had good intentions and we're
just curious, yes, you're not correcting the anxiety, but also

(58:38):
because that's too broad and thedogs might not actually
understand what you're correcting them for.
So when the dog barks and you correct, that's an easy pattern
for them to figure out. Oh, OK, I'm not supposed to be
barking if I'm trying to dig outand then I got corrected.
OK, Same concept of, hey, I, youknow, every time I try to dig or

(58:59):
break out of the crate, I get corrected.
It's not, oh, I feel this certain way and then I got
corrected because, you know, we're not that good.
I don't know, the 2nd that the dog starts to feel anxious,
right? It's a, it's typically a kind of
a slow build. But if you can target these
behaviors, what you get is a dogthat's just sitting there

(59:22):
worried. And when they're sitting there
worried and not doing any of theother manifestations, they
typically will start to fall asleep because, you know, they
get tired, they tire themselves out.
And it melts, all these issues melt away pretty quickly.
So let's talk through what Vlosssaid.
The, the, you know, the mechanics because in for

(59:45):
everyone listening, we're givingyou the high level here.
You know, with a very severe case, we might spend an hour
with a client on lesson 4 talking about this is how you're
going to leave over the next week.
This is your homework and one hour 1 specific dog talking
through. If it's severe, if it's minor,
it's pretty easy. The you know, the homework, but
if it's really severe, there's alot that goes into it.

(01:00:07):
So do we want to take like a midlevel severity and talk through
how we're leaving? Go for it.
Well, we've done everything we've already talked about that
day. What I would tell the the person
is I want your dog in recovery mode when they're in the crate.
And what I mean by that is physically like they're in

(01:00:28):
recovery mode. Their body needs to rest because
they've been worked pretty hard.How hard you work them is hard
to say. It has to be safe.
Obviously, if you have worries about your dog's health or their
breathing issues because it's hot, whatever, they need to be
really careful with this. But when I say recovery mode,
what I mean is they're panting and they're like, I just want to
lay down and pant and rest. I don't want to do anything.

(01:00:50):
I'm done playing fetch. And you know, all of you, anyone
who has a dog can picture recovery mode.
The dog goes into the kitchen, they throw themselves on their
side and they're just panting and resting.
They're happy as can be. That's how I want to put the dog
in the crate at first because the odds of success are so much
higher. And that's obviously what we're
looking for is success. So I'd get the dog to where

(01:01:11):
they're pretty darn tired and I'd put them in the crate and
when I leave, I have some way tokeep an eye on them.
So probably a camera, but we didthis for years before cameras.
I know you guys both remember that we'd like set a way to peek
through the blinds and better see the dog, but they can't see
us. But now, cameras make this all
easier. And I would walk out real
casual. And I walk out like no big deal.

(01:01:32):
And I go, and I sit right outside the door, far enough
away that the dog can't hear lost.
What's up? You look like you're gonna say
something. I was just gonna say, are you
leaving the room? Are you leaving the house?
If you're leaving the house, is it the door you usually go out
when you go to leave I? I think those are some important
points. At this point, I don't think I
care all that much. I want to leave the house.

(01:01:54):
I, I don't care if it's the door.
We know we have to get to the point that it's normal, like the
normal routine. You get your keys, you get your
work clothes on, whatever. And you go in case the dog has,
you know, associated any of thatstuff with you leaving at the
start, whatever's convenient andthe whatever the clients can
actually do from a homework standpoint.
So I don't care if it's the front door, but they're walking

(01:02:15):
out of sight and they're just going outside in a very short
distance, but far enough the dogdoesn't know where they are.
And I tell them bring your laptop with you or bring a book
or whatever. And you go out there and you sit
and then you hang out. Man, if the dog starts barking,
like Nelson said, I would come in the house and I would tell
them no. And you know, I would try a
verbal no, like open the door, tell them no sternly and then

(01:02:37):
shut the door and back out. And then if they were, you know,
doing it again, I might go in and give some sort of physical
correction. So it'd be open the cage door,
maybe give a little tug and tellthem no and then shut the door
and walk out again, if you've done the prep work right, this
is pretty easy. Even with a severe case, this is
pretty darn easy. And you like, so don't picture
100 corrections. And it's chaos and the dog like

(01:02:59):
fighting to get out of the cratewhen you get there.
If you've done all your prep work right and the dog's in
recovery mode because they've had a good day, it's this is not
going to be a hard step. And I want them out there long
enough that they say, wow, I couldn't have done this before.
How long is that? I don't know.
Is it 2 minutes? Is it 20?
It just depends on where the dogstarted from.

(01:03:20):
But get a time where you're happy with and you're kind of
proud of like, hey, we did this.And I'd walk back in and let the
dog out. And once again, no big deal.
Don't throw a party. Don't.
If you are too excited, they're then going to wait for that and
they're going to. So, Nelson, why are you
smirking? Because I was thinking of, I was
going to ask you guys about thistoo, right?
Is a very common pitfall that I feel people make all the time is

(01:03:44):
tossing treats and trying to dipout of the house or like, all
right, honey, I'm leaving. You're going to have a great
day. Everything's going to be
perfectly and they bring too much attention, too much doom
and gloom to the leaving portionand then too much of a freaking
party when they come back. It's such a harsh contrast that
you're never going to make a significant difference until you

(01:04:06):
kind of address that as well, for sure.
So coming and going pretty casual, let them out, no big
deal. Like, hey bud, how are you?
And you walk in the kitchen, youget a drink of water and then
they follow you. And then of course you can pet
them, but you don't want them toassociate you walking in the
door. And now it's exciting.
Yeah, and a lot of the times as part of the training, I'll even

(01:04:28):
tell them, hey, you come in and I'm, you know, like wait 5
minutes before you let them out,right?
You know, like pretend that you're putting all your stuff
away, grab a drink, whatever thecase may be, and then you let
them out. So even even you coming into the
house isn't immediately I'm getting out of this crate, you
know, and getting the dogs to actually just like I'll get out
when I get out. So I'm glad you said that

(01:04:51):
because this is somewhere I see a lot of new trainers struggle
is having trouble modifying based upon the dog.
And we've even had that with newtrainers in our company, right
when they're like, well, why Yesterday you said to do this
and today you're saying do this and we're like, what's a
different dog? Here's the difference, right?
And we walk them through the difference.
So what you said is great if the, if it's called for, if the

(01:05:13):
dog's ready for it. So there's times where I want
you to do, I want it to be better than it was yesterday.
And sometimes you're like, I just want you to get inside and
get that dog out of the crate before he starts barking because
this is our first success ever. So just 2 minutes.
That was awesome. He's never done that before.
Let him out, no big deal. But you and I are both really
excited and we finally got that two minutes.

(01:05:34):
As opposed to the dog who's already done an hour before.
No big deal. Now that dog, when you come in,
yeah, maybe you want to make it harder and ignore him for you
say, hey, bud, hang on and you go and change and do whatever
and then come back and get them.But make sure if you're a
trainer listening to this, that you're modifying all of this
based upon the dog 'cause there's and where they are in
their training. Day three is so much different

(01:05:56):
than day 30, obviously. For sure.
Yeah, that's a really good point, right?
You know, all loud of this stuff.
Was that loud I mean. It wasn't loud for me, but we'll
see in the next. Yeah, it seems like it muted it.
Pretty well. Oh good.
OK, well, for everyone listeningnow, not watching.
I gestured wildly and smacked mymic in a little haywire.

(01:06:18):
But So what I was saying is, youknow, there is a lot to what
you're saying and where they arein the training, what they're
capable of, you know, that kind of stuff that that certainly
makes a huge difference. The other thing that I wanted to
point out here is, Oh no, did I just lose it?
I might have just lost it. Well, while you get that

(01:06:44):
thought, I'll point out Gloss's headphones are way bigger than
yours. Yeah, it's like his headphones
grew and you're shrunk. I think he's compensating.
Well, if you're pointing that out, should we point out that
you're not wearing yours anymore?
And like, I feel weird that you're not wearing them.

(01:07:04):
And now Nelson and I are. I just, I stopped wearing them
recently. They man, I get sick of having
them on for hours. And there were a couple of days
where I filmed the Dog Pro Radioand then this and I had like 4
hours a day with these headphones on and I was like,
you know what, I'm going to try it without.
And it's, it's been good. This seems to be working.
I don't hear. Any I don't like it for the

(01:07:25):
record. It's not official, that's for
sure. So did you come up with your
thought? Because if not, we can.
I surely did not pivot. Go ahead, let's pivot.
So one of the biggest things here, and you know, we're
talking a lot of our advice has been to trainers, but if you're
an owner listening is you need to build a map of how you get

(01:07:48):
from where we're starting to your end goal.
What's your end goal? I don't know, it depends on you,
but is your end goal, you go to work for 8 hours every single
day is your end goal. You just want to be able, I have
a lot of clients who when they call, they're like, I just want
to be able to go to dinner everyonce in a while, right?
And go to the grocery store without having to make sure my
husband's home first or whatever.
So you have to know your goal towork towards that.

(01:08:11):
And then, you know, if your goalis you want to get them out of
the crate long term, that's always my goal.
I don't create any of my dogs assoon as they're old enough that
they're mentally mature where I trust them because they can
protect the house a lot better and they're happier, of course,
if they can just do whatever during the day, you know, if
that's your goal, that's fine. But we have to, you know, build
to that, but have your goal and figure out what it is.

(01:08:32):
And then we start building to that and it's a bunch of little
steps. And I always use the phrase we
can't go from point A to point Zand how we define point A.
It doesn't. It just depends where you're at
in training. We might say today this is point
A, we're putting them in the crate and we just got 2 minutes.
That was awesome. That's really good.
He's never done that before. But Z is like, you can go,

(01:08:53):
that's your end result. So that's your 8 hours a day.
You want to be able to leave andtrust them.
There's a lot of steps between two minutes and eight hours and
we have to break it into a lot of steps.
And so I help them and I'll do awritten homework where we'll
break it into steps. Like for this week, you're you.
We just did 2 minutes. That was awesome.
I want you to try later today ortomorrow or whatever, another 2

(01:09:14):
minutes. Do the same thing you did with
me. If you can get that, that's
great. And then I want you to add time
each day and we'll do what seemsright for the dog.
We might say we go from 2:00, wedouble it for a while to 4 to 8
to 16, you know, each day. And we're not going to double
forever, but maybe we do that for a week until we're at an
hour or however long that takes.And then we start adding a

(01:09:34):
little bit of time, but giving them very clear guidance of all
these steps. Because what I see is people
sometimes will do this for like 2 weeks.
And then you come back for an appointment, you're like, how
are things going? And they have, they've done the
same thing you left them with and they're like, hey, tomorrow
I've actually got work meetings in the city.
I'm going to be gone for 9 hourslike, well, how is that going to

(01:09:56):
work? Because we've the longest we've
done is 2 minutes. Like we've got to be building to
that with a set plan, yeah. So I think you just touched on
the most difficult thing for people is, you know, there's a
decent number of cases where youcome in and it's the person went
from working at home to now theygot a new job and they're going
to be gone for 10 hours a day. So they they're trying to go

(01:10:19):
from A-Z, which you said they can't do.
What's your advice to someone inthat situation?
How do they solve for that time period in between?
Man, I mean, I've had people long before COVID that get a
dog. It's usually a rescue and it's
an adult and they get a dog and they're like, I took a few days
off work to be with the dog, youknow?

(01:10:39):
And then I start work, you know,on Monday and this is like a
Thursday. And the dog broke out of the
crate and then you had called usthat's and I just tell them that
that's going to be really hard to solve by Monday.
We can try and I'm going to giveyou how I would do it if it was
me. And there's a chance you can
solve this by Monday, but your only priority for the next 4

(01:11:01):
days is following my advice. Like I don't even you can eat,
but you need to eat quick. You need, you're not no leisure
time, no anything you're not working out.
Everything you're doing is focused on this dog for the next
4 days. And I've had times where we've
gotten it done and they've gone to work on Monday and
everything's been fine. And I know there's been times
where they haven't been able to meet that four day deadline.

(01:11:22):
So you know, if this is answering your question, it's
telling them here's what I'd work on.
You have to build it. You're doubling your time much
quicker. Like, you know, we talked
through how do we get from here until, you know, Sunday we've
got to do a test run that's like4 hours or five hours and it's
Thursday. So we kind of figured that out.
We work backwards from where we need to be and really stress

(01:11:44):
working on, you know, all the obedience and all the stuff they
need to do in that time frame, you know, and then, but then to
your question, I would tell them, like finding a different
solution would be preferable. You know, can we get a house
sitter, like a dog sitter to come to your house all day for
the next two weeks while you work on this stuff?
That'd be better. You know, a dog Walker coming at

(01:12:06):
lunch. You know, maybe it's helpful,
maybe not. You know, because yeah, you said
it could screw it up. It could screw, yeah, yeah.
And then there's just no telling.
So if they say I'll have a sitter come and tell them, you
know, at noon to walk them, thatmight help.
Or they might not be able to getthem back in the crate, right?
Or they might be excited. They pet them.
They, you know, cuddle them for a minute.

(01:12:27):
They shut the door and now he's freaking out.
So it's hard to know if that's going to be helpful.
Definitely. Is there a time, a time frame or
a time amount that you guys haveever seen?
They're like, OK, it's going to take a lot of work to get this
dog to spend this amount of timein the crate, but if I can make
it to here, I know longer times are going to be much easier.

(01:12:52):
So there's a, there's a time that I typically tell people of
like, OK, we have to work really, really hard to get up to
here. But once we make it here, moving
beyond this instantly gets easier.
And I just didn't know if you guys had any reference in your
mind of of. What let's let's write it down
and then we'll so that no one can cheat is going to be fun.

(01:13:17):
See, Covey caught on because I didn't want to say how long I
was thinking. Are you writing plus?
No, but there's a. There's a good reason for it.
He's going to be one of those cheaters that's like, well
actually you guys are wrong because it depends on the dog.
I'm not playing the game. He didn't write it.

(01:13:40):
I think he's writing it. I wrote something.
I was like, I hear I'm writing. Funny enough, actually this is
one of the things that I that I forgot that I wanted to bring up
so. What are you writing over there,
Nelson? This.
I thought we were just writing the amount of time.
It's been like 30 seconds. I wanted to make sure they could

(01:14:00):
actually see it. He wrote a soliloquy.
Did you do it like a Sharpie? Did you do like those?
It sounded like a sharpie I thought I heard.
Sharpie. It's actually a Sharpie pen, so
very, very intuitive of you guysto be like I.
Guarantee here the. Pen nib, so I know it's a
sharpie. Is it gangster graffiti letters?

(01:14:21):
Is that why it took you so long?I don't know, I don't think so
could be OK, it could be classified.
Are we showing at the same time?Yes, 32130 minutes.
I put 20. What is your save loss?
It's just a scribble. I don't have a time.
I don't. I feel like I don't go.

(01:14:42):
By that, I don't think that's I just gangster graffiti.
I would just. No, that's not there.
I. Know well.
It's almost. We should have the producer
Chuck, can you pull up some gangster graffiti letters and
put them on the screen? That way we could reference.
That's a good idea. All right, Bloss, go ahead with
your cheating answer. It's not, no, I'm not.

(01:15:04):
I just, I don't feel like I havea time.
I don't think I say like once you can get past this time,
you're set. I mean, I get how a time is a
reference point that's going to help some people in this, but I
say it's just about getting themover the mindset.
And then once you've gotten overthe mindset, the the duration
doesn't matter as much. So that is the definition of

(01:15:25):
fixing separation anxiety. He has that part correct.
However, it's crazy that you don't have, I don't know.
I always tell clients that, listen, it's going to be a lot
of work, especially if your dog is in a more severe state.
It's going to be the 1st 20 minutes is the hardest, right?
You know, again, going from 2 minutes to 4 minutes, from 4

(01:15:47):
minutes to 8 minutes, you know, building up that first 20
minutes is usually the hardest. But if we can crack 20 minutes,
you're going to start to notice where an hour is so much easier
because again, same concept. Hey, we're going for that one
hour run. This time.
The 1st 20 minutes is where I'm really, really watching the dog
and I'm watching everything thatthey're doing.

(01:16:07):
Once I hit 20 minutes, I start to go back to, you know, YouTube
videos or emails or whatever it is because I know once they got
past that first 20 minutes, usually it takes something like
a doorbell, like a dog Walker. It takes some kind of
introduction for the dogs to then start panicking.
I don't know, I feel like you probably text Covey your answer

(01:16:30):
like beforehand and you were like let's.
But we got different answers andgo against.
Floss and by. You both have 20.
I thought you both had 20? Mine was 30, so by percentage
mine was I need 50% more time than him.
No 30% more time. No, I think you're right, 50.
50, yeah. 20 to 30, yeah. 50. You know, I could go with losses

(01:16:52):
answer. Like it's not really about time,
it's about making them no longeranxious when they're separated
from you. So I you know, I'm with you,
Nelson, and what I the reason I like to give a time frame and I
don't know if I would always choose thirty.
I think I would modify it a little bit based upon the dog.
But what I'd explain to them is the first part's the hardest.
He's like he's first because he's not wanting to go in there.

(01:17:14):
He's seeing you leave. That's the biggest trigger.
And if what would make him at minute 31 be like, I desperately
need out, you were chill for 30 minutes and with no new
doorbell, no new noise or anything right when nothing
happens and the minute 31 like Ineed out instantly, that's

(01:17:35):
really unlikely. And it's the same.
I tell people the same thing with the down stay.
If we're recommending like a 30 minute down stay in the evening
for a dog who needs to settle, like the first 5 minutes is all
you really like, That's it. After that, maybe they get up,
but it's pretty easy. It's that really the 1st 5
minutes is the hardest part there.
I get that you said no new distraction, but what do you

(01:17:57):
think I was going to say was going to happen at 31 minutes
that would make him get up very specific thing bird into the
window. No, that's not it.
Well, I would say doorbell, but Nelson already said that was.
In Florida. So it was probably something
with alligators. No.
It's mailman. The mailman.
You're baking cookies. That's a good one.

(01:18:19):
You're baking cookies and you forgot to turn the timer off.
And they're done. Now, Mailman.
Mailman's the easy answer. The mailman.
Yeah, absolutely. You're absolutely correct,
actually, because I tell people about that stuff all the time is
barring some Amazon drivers is typically when I'm doing my
spiel, right. Like barring some Amazon driver,
your dog is going to do really good after 20 minutes.

(01:18:41):
Amazon Driver might be the better answer these days.
Yeah, nobody cares about. It I'll tell you what Tara was
talking to our mailman and he I forget the number he's awesome,
but the number, but it was he got a friend she and was either
like 6 or 8 grand. Dang.
Yeah. Holly's training a dog I want to
say was 6 grand. What kind of dog?

(01:19:03):
English lab that's black, so it's not an English cream, it's
a just an English lab. Is it also owned by a mailman?
I don't know, maybe I didn't askthat part.
I cannot I. Cannot imagine paying 68 grand
for a dog that's not like I get it of course if it's like a
working dog and you're going to breed it or whatever.

(01:19:25):
But for a Frenchie or a lab? So me and Holly played this
game. What's your What's your top
number? I don't know because both of my
dogs are rescuers right now. This mic, I'm going nuts on it
today. So both of mine were like 100 or
$200.00. And that seems like especially
the one that's 90 lbs like per pound, we got such a good deal

(01:19:46):
on that dog. It's an amazing deal.
But I don't know, because I would like a boxer.
I would like a purebred boxer and I wanted to be healthy.
I want all, you know, all kinds of tests done.
I think that'd be a lot of fun. And I don't know what to go in
prices because spending more than 1500 seems hard to me to
justify. But that's also what I paid for
the only purebred dog I've ever owned.

(01:20:08):
And that was like. You know, 14 years ago or
something, right? So I don't know 2500, I guess
I'm going to say. OK, I was at 3 grand for like
dog of my dream went to like thereputable list of reputable
breeders, all the tests, everything. 3 grand was was

(01:20:29):
where I would I would tap out anything more than that.
Voss, how much would you spend? I don't this is a tough question
for me. So I haven't told either of you,
but we're actually in the marketand that's exciting.
You know, both of my old dogs were both rescues so much like
cubby. I think I spent like probably
100 for the 1 and 150 for the other.

(01:20:52):
And this time it, it seems like we are going to go breeder and
I'm, I'm struggling a little bitwith that decision first and
foremost of finding one that I really like.
Oh my gosh, if you need help with breed, we've got a breed
selection survey. Holly could do it with you.
And like this would be amazing. So not struggling with breed

(01:21:13):
selection, but great, great plug.
Thank you. We are looking we are looking at
mini doodles. So I.
Know lots of people? Are you seeing lots?
Of real. I know lots of people have their
thoughts on this and what I would say is mini doodles tend
to be a pretty good dog and Joy's key criteria is cuteness.
Have you met a mini doodle in the past nine months?

(01:21:37):
Yes, I have. Dave and Jim, do you like
something into that, into that gene pool?
So what you have to remember though, is we're dog trainers at
the end of the day. So I'm not horribly concerned
with with working on issues thatthey may or may not have.
Joy's criteria is cuteness, and they're awfully cute.
You can't argue with that. So I mean, it's likely what

(01:22:01):
we're going to get. I could argue.
With that, OK, so you went with the easy answer mini doodle,
right? You don't actually care what
kind of doodle it is as long as it's like £20 or less, £30 or
less. I think we want to be in like
the 25 to 30 range. Wow, that's very specific.

(01:22:21):
Seems to be well. So I guess the main thing I want
to say with that is we don't want like a micro, right?
Sure. We don't want a truly small dog.
We want something that I would say is more in the small to
medium range. And because, like, they're
getting these burner doodles down, really.
Small now, yeah. Have you looked at the mini
Maladoodles? When you get into the micros, so

(01:22:44):
that's you got to use the right terminology here.
You know, the minis are generally in the range I'm
talking about, but micro is where you really start getting
into smaller than that, that £20range and and we don't want
anything that little. I want to breed you a
maladoodle. Just take like a purebred
Malinois, have it knock up a little poodle, and then that'll

(01:23:07):
be your dog. So I knew this was going to get
a pretty big reaction. So I was tentative to talk about
it. But I mean getting back to
price. I think Nelson and I handled
ourselves pretty well. I thought I was being very
supportive personally. So jumping, jumping back to
price, I've been watching one lots of rescue groups.
I haven't seen any that really meet our criterias come up.

(01:23:30):
So meaning that they're all ugly.
He's like ugly ugly. I didn't want to say it, but
there are a lot of ugly doodles out there and it seems like the
only ones that get given up for adoption are ugly, and I know
that's true. Lots of them bite children over
resources and then get given up.But they're now pretty enough to

(01:23:51):
overlook how evil they are. Haven't seen that in the
southeast covey, so again, watching lots of rescue groups.
Haven't seen. Anything come up that's good,
the rescues use the right language, they say might do
better in a 14 and up household and then like.
None of because. None of that attack your child.
None of that has even come up. So haven't seen anything.

(01:24:13):
So have been looking at breederswithin the last few weeks here.
And what I would say in terms ofprice is it's hard for me to
comment because a lot of them don't even list the price.
And I think I, I guess I have a lot of issues with the things
that I'm seeing where most of the Breeders are places where
they're saying you can't come and meet the breeder like the

(01:24:35):
the owners of the place, you can't come and meet the parents.
And I don't like any of that, any of those situations.
So the reason I'm bringing all of that up is there is one
breeder that will allow allow you to come and visit with the
owners and with the parents of the dogs.
Which you? Don't really like that thing,

(01:24:56):
but the reason I'm talking aboutit is they don't have their
prices listed. So it's it's making me wonder
like, are we going to go there and meet with these people and
love them and love the dogs? And then they're going to be
like, oh, by the way, yeah, I know you're comparing us to
other doodle breeders, but we're6000 bucks a dog instead of
1300, right? Well, here's what you do.

(01:25:18):
It all depends what you drive upin.
You need to wear overalls, no T-shirt under there.
Definitely don't shave your chest.
You need to be hairy and you show up with like a big straw
hat on with like piece of hay sticking in.
Your teeth thinking of the pieceof hay.
Yeah, yeah. It's all, it's all funny and
interesting because the only real like personal experience I

(01:25:40):
have with a breeder is Covey. Do you remember Chunk from
college? Sure, so in college I had a flat
coated retriever named Chunk that we technically got from a
breeder, but it was basically just a farm out in the country
where they had a litter and theysold them off on probably
Craigslist if I had to guess. They weren't Amish.

(01:26:03):
No, they weren't Amish whatsoever.
It wasn't like the modern day situation that you're talking
about of like a puppy mill type dog.
It was just like a good old farmlitter.
Can I ask a question? Do it?
Did you decide to get a doodle before you got the pink shirt?
Like is there any correlation? Here.

(01:26:26):
So we've been weighing options for quite some time.
Like we knew that. How long you've been weighing
options for? If you just had to give me a
just ballpark it. A long time, six months we've we
talked about it before, you know, my 2 passed away so we
knew we didn't want a big dog again.
So we I haven't really talked about my dogs on here, but I had

(01:26:49):
a Great Dane and then a boxer mix, which may be boxer mastiff.
I think Covey would tell you boxer pit, but regardless they
were both big I. Don't know he had that do lap.
I mean, I would have guessed Mastiff for sure.
I don't know, I think I said that once and Covey acted like I
was crazy. So I always make sure to preface
the comment before I say it around him because I know he's

(01:27:11):
going to like jump down my throat and be like he wasn't.
He wasn't a master. So just ballpark it.
When did you decide Mini doodle?How long ago?
Mini doodle. Probably like 5 months ago that
like locked it. Like locked it right?
And you haven't told us for fivemonths.
That's weird. How?

(01:27:33):
Where did you when did you buy that shirt you're wearing?
I don't know, I probably had this for a year, maybe more.
I would like to can we need a better answer.
Can you look into that and let us know in the next episode?
I feel like it's going to be getthe receipt five to seven
months. I think there's something going
on. No, Yep.
You moved to Florida. 'S catching up to him.

(01:27:54):
Yeah, pink shirts. Doodles.
OK, So two things, two very incredibly interesting things
here with with your doodle pick one is everything that you're
describing is exactly what I wasalluding to last episode when we
were talking about the breeding being so different, right?
And and seeing a lot more of this kind of crazy stuff is

(01:28:15):
because we're no longer meeting the parents, we're no longer
meeting the Breeders, everything.
I mean, just even there's alwaysbeen ethics questions to
breeding versus adopting and allthat kind of stuff, but it's
gotten so much worse even now, right.
And and especially I feel like it really kind of grew with the
doodle movement because it's Covey.

(01:28:39):
Remember you were talking about this for a while of, you know,
like tuxedos are cost this much,but then, you know, like this,
the brown colors cost, you know,500 more than that and you
everything is looks and they're no longer breeding for
temperament anymore. And that's why I don't have a
boxer because I we, we evaluatedbreeders.

(01:29:00):
This was before we got our Sonny, the Akita 1.
And it like we couldn't find onethat did the test like proper
tests on the dog and would let us meet the parents.
And after like we looked, I swear we looked in half the
country for that. And finally we're like, we're
just done. If I'm going to if I'm going to
get a dog with questionable health and not going to meet the

(01:29:20):
parents, well then I might as well pay 200 bucks and pull it
out of a shelter. For sure.
Whatever. Absolutely.
It's insane to me how few breeders will let you meet the
parents at this point And like they all claim parvo as the
reason why. Like they don't want the puppies
to get parvo from you coming andvisiting.
I'm like, I don't even, I'm not even talking about coming and

(01:29:41):
seeing the puppies. Like I let me see the parents
right now. Like, let's start there.
The recent fear of parvo is justblows my mind.
The extreme worries that make nosense.
I think it's just an excuse because the Breeders don't want
to deal with people come in there.
And I'm with you on that. But you know, we've had multiple

(01:30:05):
and I've had two in the last fewweeks, people reach out that
were told not to let their puppyby their vet and their breeder,
not to let their puppy on grass that any animal had been on for
like until it was fully vaccinated like that, that these
dogs are staying inside. Like they're literally going to
the bathroom in these people's houses and apartments for two
months. Crazy.

(01:30:26):
It's like, what kind of bizarre freak show world do we live in
that we're like, yeah, just keepthis animal inside for two
months and let them go to the bathroom all over the house?
Like that's insane. Like they don't need sunlight.
That's crazy. We're so far away from
separation anxiety at this point.
I think you're going to have to do like a little break out of
this, of this podcast where you address that we're talking about

(01:30:50):
breeders and getting a puppy. Maybe, but two more things,
however bombshell that was one. I mean for Vloss knowing now
that he wants a mini doodle, I mean he's probably at that 6000
mark, right? I mean, like it's, it wouldn't
surprise me at all if you had topay.

(01:31:10):
So a lot of the ones that list the price, a lot of the ones
that list the price are in the three to $4000 range is what I
is, what I would say I have seenand if you ask me if I'm
comfortable paying that. So like way back to the original
question, I don't know how I feel like it's so much more than
I've ever paid for a dog. But I also know that we have

(01:31:32):
lots of clients that pay like 10grand for a dog.
So I really don't know what I'm going to end up spending or how
I feel about it, but I know thatI'm probably not going to feel
good about whatever the number is for.
Sure. Well, for the record, I paid
$0.50 a pound and that seems like a fair deal.

(01:31:52):
I bet I got you on on Luna with that one.
I think I probably was cheaper with her.
I think she was 150 and came with a Great Dane size crate.
So if you and. Include the.
Crate. If you include the crate, she
was. Free for sure, no question.
Or maybe even negative dollars. OK, so the other, the other

(01:32:14):
crazy thing, since we're talkingabout vets with crazy,
outlandish, goofy things that they say because they have a
degree. So I was talking to the owners
of the German Shepherd that I just picked up that I was
telling you guys about. And she said that the vet
recommends in order to have a normal German Shepherd puppy,

(01:32:36):
that she is likely going to haveto be walking this German
Shepherd puppy that is 3 months old, 5 to 10 miles a day.
What? I was flabbergasted.
I was appalled. I need a covey word right now to
just describe how nuts that sounds at this age.

(01:32:57):
She's saying to walk that three months old, 5 to 10 miles.
That sounds like something a crazy trainer would say, not a
vet. I mean, just think about the not
fused bones, right? Like, how are you gonna, how are
you a vet and you're gonna say 5to 10 miles?
I was like, that's freaking crazy.

(01:33:18):
Like and they're like, Why is mydog hobbled with growing pains?
Right. Just bonkers, dude.
I was. I was blown away.
In the worst of ways, at least he's allowed to go outside.
At least he's allowed to go outside, I'll give you that for
sure. She but yeah, for sure.
She so we should switch back to separation anxiety.

(01:33:42):
I'm just are you Nelson? Are you a little put out that
have lost kept the secret for five months?
No, like I said, I feel like this is very on brand.
He's like, I got married two years ago, didn't I tell you
right? I just feel like if I told you
like, Oh yeah, we just had a baby and you're like, wait,
what? You didn't even say you were
Carol pregnant you. Can't say that you were invited

(01:34:05):
to the wedding and we did the wedding on Facebook live during
COVID. I wasn't invited to that.
I was. I was consulted as to like hey
how do we do the video? But he was.
You got the link. I don't know if I got that link
I feel. You got the link.
Shafted here. We sent it to the whole company.
Everybody in the company got it,so you definitely got it.

(01:34:26):
Yeah, I remember when people realized Joy's name was going to
be Joy Vloss, how creeped out they were by that, because Vloss
feels like a first name the way it's used.
That that part is true. All right.
I would hate, I would hate to beher and to have had to take that
name. Joy Vloss.
She seems pretty happy about it.So separation anxiety, we got

(01:34:48):
through a lot. We talked through big picture,
we talked through some specifics.
We talked through some crazy days.
Is there anything else we need to talk through there?
Can you imagine if we say no, ifsomeone's listening and they
just listened for the last 15 minutes and they're like, yeah,
we don't care about any of this,but we need some more to help us
with our dog. And then we're like, OK, and
that's the end. Nelly had something on his

(01:35:11):
talking points. For this that I think.
Would be good to talk about and it's tips for people that they
can use early on with their dog before they've seen any signs of
separation anxiety to help ensure it won't happen.
And I think just like really simple, straightforward tips.
What do you get? Go, go, Nelson.

(01:35:32):
One big thing is using a crate early on.
Just get your dog crate trained,get them comfortable with the
crate. It's going to be super easy as a
puppy, you know, I got, I know that's typically when people
struggle with it, but it really isn't that hard, you know, but I
think that instantly decreases separation anxiety by like 75%
if they're comfortable in the crate early on as a.

(01:35:55):
Puppy agreed. You want my biggest?
I think that's the biggest 1. You want my second biggest one?
Yes. Go places.
Don't stay home all the time when your dog is new.
And even more than that, I guessthey kind of go hand in hand,
right? It's like a middle point of mine
and yours, which is putting the dog in the crate even even when

(01:36:20):
you're not leaving, right? You know, So like kind of a
halfway point, something that wetalked about a lot during COVID
is even though you're home all day, that doesn't mean the dog
has to be with you all day, right?
And so putting them in the cratefor an hour, it's just so that
they can maintain some type of familiarity with being alone,
being confident, being calm and and understanding that nothing

(01:36:40):
is going to happen, nothing wrong is going to happen.
I can't believe how often I haveto tell a client you just build
the life you want. And then I say that because when
they're like, I take the dog literally everywhere with me to
the store and then my husband comes home.
They do this and it's like a 12 week old dog and it's going

(01:37:01):
absolutely everywhere, school pickup, whatever.
And that is always with them. I'm like, is that the life you
want? And they're like, no, I want to
be able to leave them at home. Like, well, let's let's start
practicing leaving it at home. And we talked through let's
build the life you want. You want to be able to be gone
for four hours running errands and home at lunch and do this
and that. Well, let's build that and let's
figure out how we get to that point.

(01:37:21):
It doesn't mean you do it tomorrow, but let's make sure
we're working towards that. So I'm with you, Nelson, and by
I guess, and Vloss, both of yours, put them in a crate from
a young age and practice leaving.
And a question I get asked a lotis when should you consider
putting your dog on drugs for separation anxiety?
And what I would say is if you've worked with a really good

(01:37:44):
trainer who knows what they're doing, who's a documented
history of success with separation anxiety dogs, it's
giving you good advice and you're following the advice.
Not just you've paid the money, but like you've actually
followed their advice and you're, you're going to make
progress. So if you said, I've made 0
progress, that means the advice sucks or you're not listening to

(01:38:04):
them. One of the two, there's no way
you'll make 0 progress. I don't care how severe the dog
is. It's to me, it'd be when you hit
a plateau where you say, man, wecan get 20 minutes and we or
whatever, 30 minutes or even 3 hours.
And then something happens or clock ticks or whatever.
The we watch them on the camera,dog pops up and we just can't
get them back after that. And we've done everything we've

(01:38:26):
worked for a few months. Like, to me, that's when it
makes sense to look into drugs. And at that point, you get to
use lower doses, right, because your dog isn't starting from
that crazy starting point. You know, there's you're just
layering it on, right? Just like you said, you're just
kind of using it in moderation so that you can help your dog

(01:38:47):
get over the last hump. Absolutely.
All right. Is that it for today?
Real quick, I did want to talk about breeds.
Right? So breeds.
You're really springing this on us at the end.
Well, at least I mean like it was in my notes so.
I'm not saying you hadn't thought of it, but just we're

(01:39:08):
like winding down and all of a sudden we're cranking back up,
OK? Breathe.
Let's just just real quick, whatare some of the breeds that come
to mind when you guys think separation anxiety?
Husky. Husky for sure.
Vischla A Vischla German Shepherd.
German Shepherd was high on my list so.

(01:39:31):
German short haired pointer. Also on my list.
I agree. Dutch Shepherd.
You know, I just don't see enough of those.
I I bet, right? I would make sense.
I just don't see them. Border.
Collie. That was my second, so my top
two were definitely German Shepherd, Border Collie, and
then my third was Beagles. Beagles a good one, Huskies.

(01:39:56):
A good one though, so. I'm going to go with a super
underrated 1 and I'm curious your thoughts on this.
This one's like, not on any of the lists online I don't think
anybody talks about. It I know what you're going to
say. OK, write it down then.

(01:40:16):
Little dog? It's a little dog.
Bedlington Terrier? No.
What do you got? Is that your real guess or do
you I? Don't know what it is.
I'm going to say like Boston's, I think they're low key
separation anxiety fiends. I can see that for sure.

(01:40:40):
Oh my gosh, we didn't talk abouttypes of crates.
We need to start with this all over again.
We should edit it and put this in the middle.
Crates matter, right? Crates do matter, yeah,
absolutely. If they have flex, you're going
to have a harder time. If anyone is still listening,
and unfortunately the people probably need the help the most

(01:41:00):
have probably dropped off the episode by now.
But like you just said Nelson, the flex matters.
If the dog feels like they can get out, they are going to keep
trying to get out. And you get a sturdy solid crate
that feels rock solid and you'd be surprised how much that
fixes. And there's some you can get.
A nice one like an impact crate are really awesome.

(01:41:23):
They're expensive but you can also gunner.
Yep, you can go on Amazon and get a pretty cheap
indestructible crate that's not as good but might also be 400
bucks. And I think it's pretty crazy to
continue using like a wire cratefrom Petco.
You're asking for trouble. How do we forget about this till
now? That's that's a good.

(01:41:44):
That wasn't even on my on my list of talking points either.
But it's like one of the first things we talk about with the
client, right? You see the wire crate?
You know like this is a problem.And how to fortify it and
everything like that or get a better one.
Yeah, no question. Go to Home Depot, buy like 50
brass clips. I'm gonna need you to clip
literally every corner of this crate as well as, you know, clip

(01:42:05):
the top to the side and the bottom to the side.
Yep, that's funny. That is kind of crazy that we
forgot about that.

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