November 17, 2024 • 56 mins
Jake's YouTube Channel is at:
How often do we as Christians think about our relationship with God? Is it merely inherited from our upbringing, or do we carve our unique path in understanding and connecting with the divine? In today's episode, I explore these questions with my son, Jake. We explore the complexities of faith, the journey from inherited beliefs to personal conviction, and the challenges of living out Christian principles in today's world. Join us as we unpack what it means to truly own your faith in a conversation that promises to challenge, enlighten, and inspire."Expanded Key Takeaways:
- Conceptualizing God:Jake shares his internal struggle with forming a tangible concept of God, moving beyond traditional images to a more abstract, yet personal understanding. This highlights the journey from a child's simple faith to an adult's nuanced relationship with the divine.
- Visual Learning: The importance of personal learning styles in faith development. Jake's reliance on visualization underscores how personal traits can shape our spiritual experiences, suggesting that faith can be deepened by engaging with it in the way we best understand the world.
- Apologetics Journey:Jake's exploration into apologetics isn't just academic; it's a quest for personal truth. His dive into arguments like the fine-tuning of the universe shows a quest for rational foundations of faith, bridging science and spirituality.
- Arguments for God's Existence:A detailed look at three philosophical arguments:
- Chance: The likelihood of the universe's conditions being perfect for life by mere accident.
- Necessity: The idea that the universe's constants must be as they are for life, yet this doesn't explain why they are necessary.
- Design: This argument resonates with Jake due to its logic that complex systems suggest a designer, paralleling our human inclination to recognize design in less complex creations.
- The Hiddenness of God:This point delves into the philosophical and emotional challenge of God's apparent silence or invisibility, exploring how believers reconcile the lack of overt divine intervention with their faith.
- Evangelism:Jake and Kenny discuss the modern Christian's dilemma: how to share faith without alienating others. The takeaway is the emphasis on showing love and respect, allowing actions to speak as loudly as words, and understanding that conversion is not about numbers but about genuine connection.Dealing with
- Doubt:Doubt is portrayed not as a failure but as an essential part of faith's maturation. Jake's experiences remind listeners that questioning can lead to stronger faith, as it forces one to engage deeply with their beliefs, moving from passive acceptance to active conviction.
Three Applications for Listeners:
- Visualizing Faith:Encourage listeners to explore or create visual metaphors or symbols that resonate with their personal understanding of God or spiritual truths. This could be through art, nature, or even personal symbols that help bridge the abstract with the tangible in their spiritual life.
- Engaging with Apologetics:Suggest that listeners delve into apologetics not just to defend their faith but to explore and deepen their understanding of it. This could involve reading books, attending lectures, or even discussing with others who have different views to strengthen their own beliefs through dialogue and reason.
- Embracing Doubt as Part of Faith:Encourage listeners to view doubt not as a threat but as an opportunity for growth. They should be prompted to ask questions, seek answers, and understand that doubt can lead to a more robust and personal faith. This might include setting aside time for reflection, prayer, or joining study groups where doubts can be shared and e
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
In this episode of Balancing the Christian Life, we
follow one Christian's journey,my son Jake.
Welcome to Balancing theChristian Life.
I'm Dr Kenny Embry.
Join me as we discover how tobe better Christians and people
in the digital age.
So how did you grow up as aChristian?
(00:20):
As some of you may know, thispodcast was originally targeted
toward my son, jake, and at atime when he was about 17.
There were conversations I knewI wanted to have with him, but
I wasn't sure exactly how theywould happen.
Well, this is anotherconversation with my son Jake,
and now he's 21.
I just wanted to see whatChristianity looked like from a
(00:41):
21-year-old's point of view.
So we just start with some verysimple questions about what his
relationship looks like withGod.
Who is God?
I have a hard timeconceptualizing.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
I know he's the creator and I know he is a
heavenly father and as aChristian, I believe he's also
the son but I have a hard timevisualizing him.
Why, I don't know.
I used to think of him as a manin the sky and I've abandoned
(01:16):
that idea, I guess but it's morebecause I feel like it's wrong.
I didn't abandon it because Idon't still think that way.
I try not to think that way nowbecause I feel like I'm
thinking about it wrong.
Speaker 1 (01:25):
Do you think it's important that you have a visual
image of who God is?
Speaker 2 (01:28):
For me it is.
I'm a very visual person.
I visualize everything, so it'seasier for me to understand
something if I can think abouthow the thing might look like.
Speaker 1 (01:38):
Okay, what if you're not going to get that?
Speaker 2 (01:41):
Then I guess it wouldn't be important, because
when you asked that question myfirst thought was no, it's not
important to my salvationwhether I can have a picture of
God.
But it makes it really hard forme sometimes because I have a
hard time picturing Him and.
I think of a lot of things andimages and pictures.
Speaker 1 (01:59):
Yeah, you've been going through a journey of what
we call apologetics.
You've been talking to me andyou've been thinking about
things like who is God, how doyou know that there is a God,
and things like that.
What are some of the thingsthat you've learned within the
last few years?
Speaker 2 (02:16):
fine-tuning of the universe.
That's been the one that's beenon my mind a lot, yeah and how
there's universal constants andthey're very specific values.
The idea proposed is that ifthey were off by a hair's
breadth then the world wouldn'texist, right?
So that's been one that I'vebeen thinking about recently,
(02:38):
which has strengthened my faithin God.
Speaker 1 (02:41):
How so, how so.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
I just have a hard time believing that it could be
anywhere else the the threelogical arguments I heard was
that it would either be chance,necessity or design, and the
probability of it being chanceis so extremely low.
Speaker 1 (02:54):
It's like okay, just stop that for a second and
unpack each one of those.
What is chance?
What is necessity?
What is design?
Speaker 2 (03:01):
So chance would say that our universe was created by
an accident.
There was a, it just happened.
Yeah, yeah, the Big Bang justhappened, and then these
universal constants also justhappened, and they just happened
to be the correct values weneed to sustain life.
Speaker 1 (03:18):
Well, yeah, all the scientists believe that.
Speaker 2 (03:21):
Why don't you believe ?
Speaker 1 (03:22):
that.
Speaker 2 (03:22):
I just find that very hard to believe Nothing in our
universe that I, the sciencebacks this up, jake, the science
backs this up.
Well, from what I understand,the science doesn't say that
it's chance.
They just know what the valuesare, and that's one of the
theories is that it could bechance.
I just find that so hard tobelieve.
I don't know exactly the number, but it's like 1 in 10 to the
(03:43):
something.
It's such an extremely lownumber.
I almost just refuse to believethat we live in a universe that
has existed for at least 2,024years.
That is completely by accident.
Okay, so you believe in a youngEarth.
Well, I mean, it's at least2,024 years old, because we're
(04:05):
in year 2024, but right, I don'tknow exactly how old the earth
is, but I just I refuse tobelieve that it all happened by
chance.
I, I completely understand.
Speaker 1 (04:16):
What is this necessity argument?
You're basically talking aboutchance, which, yeah, the
necessity argument.
Speaker 2 (04:21):
what I've heard about the necessity argument is that
when the Big Bang happened, thatbecause these values are the
way that they need to be, orbecause these values have to be
this way in order to sustainlife, that through some
necessity they just alignedthemselves that way because it
had to be that way.
That doesn't seem, that doesn'tmake sense to me, because when
(04:45):
I think, if you believe in amaterialist world which, if
you're atheist, I think you haveto If there's no God, then you
have to believe.
Speaker 1 (04:53):
What do?
Speaker 2 (04:53):
you mean by a materialist world?
Worlds only matter in energy.
There's nothing divine, there'snothing transcendent, it's all
just stuff.
Speaker 1 (05:03):
Yeah, can you see anything?
Speaker 2 (05:04):
more than just stuff.
I can't see anything more thanjust stuff, but when I think
about, well, consciousness ismore than just stuff.
So if I'm thinkingconsciousness is more than just
stuff, yeah, you're right.
But when I think about the ideaof a universe with just stuff
and then these invisible stuff,these constants needed to align
(05:25):
themselves that way, I feel likeneed implies some sort of fate
or intention behind the aligningso there's a problem with that
necessity argument.
Speaker 1 (05:35):
What do you think the big problem with the necessity?
Speaker 2 (05:37):
argument is.
I just think it doesn't stand.
I think in order to why?
Why I think necessity impliesan underlying order, almost, or
some sort of intention.
But if the world is just matterand energy, I don't see how
invisible forces can haveintention.
It also implies that the goalof the values was to sustain
(06:00):
life, and that's why they alignthemselves that way, and that
doesn't work, because if all youhave is matter and energy,
there is no such thing as a goal.
A goal would be somethingmetaphysical, not physical.
It's just a goal, is an idea.
We have something arbitrarythat we pursue.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
Yeah, and really, when you come to that necessity
argument, what it has to be iswell, I mean, the world is like
this because it has to be.
Is well, I mean the world islike this because it has to be
like this, right, because wecouldn't have a world if we
didn't have this.
So we need it to be this wayand it I think you're you're
cottoning on to the problem withthat argument, which is it kind
(06:38):
of starts by begging thequestion.
Do you understand what I meanby begging the question?
Speaker 2 (06:43):
well, like that why does it have to be that way?
Or does it need to be that?
Speaker 1 (06:47):
way, that's exactly right, and and the way they
answer, that is well, justbecause it does.
Speaker 2 (06:52):
Yeah, to me that seems that one seems more
ridiculous than the chance.
I'm at least willing to believethe possibility of the chance
argument.
I know the probability isreally really, really, really
low, but at least it's probable.
It's very improbable but itcould have happened that way.
But necessity I just don't eventhink makes sense.
It had to be that way.
Speaker 1 (07:12):
But there's nothing transcendent that directed it
that way.
Speaker 2 (07:16):
That doesn't make any sense to me, right.
Speaker 1 (07:18):
And then, when you come to the probability argument
, again that idea that it isimprobable and yet here we are.
Yeah, so I mean, I think, withthe probability argument, one of
the things that scientistscontinue to do is well, we just
have to make the universe bigger, we just had to add more time,
(07:40):
we have to add more variables,so this all makes sense.
Do you see what that?
I think I see where you're goingyeah, okay, one of the
arguments that they talk aboutsometimes is how long would it
take a room full of monkeystyping on a typewriter to get
the works of shakespeare?
Yeah, right, have you heard?
Speaker 2 (07:57):
that okay.
Well, this kind of goes thatthe inside the necessity
argument.
I've heard the theory of themultiverse proposed that we live
in a universe, we live in amultiverse and there's just
universes are constantly beingcreated, Right, and that if that
is the case, that would makesense.
If universe are infinitelybeing created forever, then just
(08:20):
by necessity you wouldeventually get one that has the
correct values to sustain life.
But that still doesn't answerthe question of well, where did
the multiverse come from?
Because if you keep going backand back and back and back,
eventually there has to be.
If there's always something,then where did the something
come from?
And something doesn't come fromnothing, so eventually the
(08:42):
something would have had to comefrom an eternal something yeah,
yeah, and that's a hard thingto to grapple with.
Speaker 1 (08:47):
Yeah, because one of the things that we haven't
really addressed yet is thequestion you're trying to answer
isn't a scientific question.
No, why not?
Speaker 2 (08:57):
because well, uh, I I look towards scientific
evidence, but so the questionI'm trying to answer is is there
a meaning to life?
Does life have value?
Uh-huh, and that would not be ascientific question, that would
(09:22):
be a moral question.
Speaker 1 (09:23):
It's a moral question .
But what other kind of questionis it?
It's not just moral.
Look, the beauty of science isit does a great job of
predicting patterns.
You look outside, you see thatyou have dark skies.
You better get an umbrella why?
Because the pattern is, whenyou see dark skies, it's
probably going to rain.
Science is great at answeringthose questions.
(09:46):
If you take this drug, thisdrug is likely to fix your
problem.
That's why, again, anotherpattern.
And yet when we look at whatkind of question you're asking,
you're talking about things thatonly happen once.
Right, and science is lousywith things that only happen
(10:07):
once, because they're just goingto go back and, okay, this
pattern, it happened like thisbefore and I guess before that
it happened the same way yeahokay, what you're looking at
isn't just a moral question,it's.
Science does a great job withnature, but the beginning of
(10:28):
something happened outside ofnature.
Yes, and by definition of whatit is, it's supernatural.
Mm-hmm.
Do you understand?
Do you see that?
Yeah, okay, which leads you toyour third argument.
Do you understand?
Do you see that?
Yeah, Okay, which leads you toyour third argument Design,
right, yes, so how did youarrive at design?
Speaker 2 (10:49):
So design makes the most sense to me because when I
well, so chance just seems verylow.
So I'm not ruling it out and Ithink that's reasonable.
Speaker 1 (11:00):
I think you can't rule it out.
Speaker 2 (11:02):
It just seems very improbable.
Speaker 1 (11:03):
Necessity.
Speaker 2 (11:04):
I don't think just makes any sense at all With
design.
It at least adds up with theway the rest of the universe
works.
So when I see a baby, I don'tthink, oh, I wonder how the baby
got there.
I assume that the baby wascreated through sexual
reproduction.
If I see a book, I don't go ohwow, I wonder how this book got
(11:25):
here.
I look at the book and I thinksomeone must have wrote the book
.
If I work on I do computers forschool when I'm looking at a
program I don't think, oh, wow,it's crazy that this program
just happened to be this way.
I think that someone actuallywrote the program.
So at least design adds up withthe way the rest of the
universe works.
Everything that we have in theuniverse that is created by
(11:46):
humans is created.
It's done, created.
The only thing we don't know isthe stuff outside of humans.
But as far as I can tell, itwould make sense.
If all of living beings, or ifall of life creates more things,
then it would make sense thatthe stuff outside of life would
also have been created.
Does that make sense?
Speaker 1 (12:06):
Yes, it makes perfect sense, and one of the things
you're talking about.
This is really a very abstractway of proving God, and it
doesn't necessarily even proveGod.
What it does is it gives you areasonable argument why you
might believe that God exists.
So I think that's a beautifulargument.
Is that the only way that youcan argue that God exists?
So I think that's a beautifulargument.
Is that the only way that youcan argue that God exists?
(12:27):
No, how else could you arguethat God exists?
Speaker 2 (12:31):
So one of the another one that I like is the free
will argument, which is thathumans seem to have a capacity
to bypass their animal instinct.
So an argument I used in avideo I made recently was if so,
charlie, your son-in-law, mybrother-in-law, sent me a video
(12:52):
in our group chat or one of ourSnapchat group chats of a cow
and they were branding the cow.
And when they put the brand onthe cow, it started shaking and
like running away, and then,once they opened the gate, the
cow ran off.
But if I put my hand on a hotstove, it'll hurt, but I could
choose to leave my hand on thehot stove, right, the cow
doesn't have the ability tochoose to just sit there and
deal with the pain of the brand,and that seems to me to be very
(13:16):
interesting.
Why are?
Why are human beings the onlybeings capable of like?
Right now, I'm really hungry,but I'm not getting up to go eat
anything.
I'm choosing to sit here andtalk.
So, but when, when our dog ishungry, it just goes and gets
food, it doesn't choose to sitthere and starve, right?
Speaker 1 (13:36):
That seems to me to at least beg the question of why
are we able to do that andother beings are not?
Yeah, and I don't, I don't.
Speaker 2 (13:40):
I've heard that we just evolved to a higher order,
but that doesn't answer thequestion of where in the
evolutionary chain did it comefrom?
Like, at what point did themonkey go from?
Just monkey, see monkey do tomonkey see monkey, think about
thing and then monkey do I don'tsee where that part comes to be
Right right?
Speaker 1 (13:58):
Well, so you got your free will argument.
You got basically an argumentabout the beginning of time and
the beginning of creation.
Sure, what other arguments doyou have?
Speaker 2 (14:12):
There's the moral argument that most human beings
and this is really interesting.
I was listening to a debaterecently between Richard Dawkins
and John Lennox.
John Lennox is a theist,richard Dawkins and John Lennox
John Lennox is an atheist,richard Dawkins is an atheist
and Richard Dawkins actuallysaid to himself all human beings
seem to have an underlyingunderstanding of morality and it
(14:34):
really begs the question oflike well how.
Yeah, where did that come from?
Yeah, because my dog doesn'thave an underlying sense of
morality.
When my girlfriend walksthrough the door, my dog will
just run at her and bark.
But Kent doesn't run at her andbark, kent just says hi.
There obviously seems to besome sort of understanding of
well, it's not very nice to gorun at someone and yell at them
(14:54):
when they enter the house.
And if the world is just matterand energy, morality is
something super, super abstract.
I mean, it's this idea of that,it's the ought argument that CS
Lewis proposed.
You can't have an ought from anis.
You can't have the world, itjust is.
(15:16):
But you ought to do this thing.
That doesn't make sense.
Why should I ought to do thatthing?
That doesn't Right right, right.
Speaker 1 (15:23):
So now you've got the moral argument.
What?
Speaker 2 (15:25):
other arguments do you have?
Well, those are the three bigones Order and design, free will
and morality.
I'm sure there's a bunch ofothers, but Well, there's a
historical argument as well.
Yeah for the argument of Jesus,yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:39):
So I mean again that there is a God.
Have you figured out anythingabout him yet?
Speaker 2 (15:57):
See, this is where, like, this was going to be the
topic of the talk I wanted totalk to you about, like I have
reasons to believe in God, but Ialso feel like I have reasons
not to.
The biggest one on my mindright now is people call it
divine hiddenness or hiddenwhatever.
I don't know God being hidden.
Speaker 1 (16:18):
You can't see him.
Speaker 2 (16:19):
Yeah, he's invisible, can't hear him, can't speak to
him.
I can speak to him, but hedoesn't seem to speak back in
the way that I would.
I can't hear his voice like Ican hear yours.
I can't touch him, I can't seehim.
So how do I even know he exists?
And that's been a really bigproblem for me, because I'll
pray about something and I don'thear a booming voice from the
(16:41):
skies or I don't see, you know,a vision of bright light like
Paul did.
So it's like how do I even knowGod?
How do I even know there'ssomething there?
Listening to my prayer, I feellike I'm just on my knees saying
stuff, but I don't.
I don't get any response.
Right, why does that bother you?
I think the reason it bothersme.
(17:03):
Well, so the reason it bothersme is because I would like God
to do that.
That's been what I've come tois the main reasons I don't
believe in God is because Goddoes not act the way I wish he
would act.
But in my head I kind of reasonout that, like I feel like this
is a reasonable way for God toact.
If I go to you and ask aquestion, you give me an answer.
(17:27):
So why, when I go to God andask a question, you give me an
answer.
So why, when I go to God andask a question, he doesn't give?
Speaker 1 (17:29):
me an answer, the same way you would give me an
answer.
Speaker 2 (17:30):
It's just hard for me to get around.
Speaker 1 (17:32):
Well, I understand that.
One of the things that I'lltell you and you're not asking
me about this, but I'm sure atsome point you will you're just
going to have to come to termswith that is the way it is, and
we've talked before about Ithink one of the most important
books in the Bible is Job,because Job is basically tempted
(17:57):
and put through a bunch oftrials.
I mean, he's just hit on overand over and over again and at
the end of his trials Goddoesn't tell him what went on.
It's a very dissatisfyingending from our perspective.
Speaker 2 (18:19):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (18:21):
Did Job, do the right thing.
Speaker 2 (18:24):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:25):
Yeah, was Job rewarded for his righteousness?
Speaker 2 (18:33):
At the end.
Yeah, he got everything back,doesn't he?
Speaker 1 (18:35):
He gets all his stuff back.
Yeah, yeah, he does.
He absolutely does.
If he didn't get all of hisstuff back, would he have been
rewarded?
Speaker 2 (18:43):
Yeah, I mean physically, no, I guess, but I
guess spiritually he gained adeeper relationship with God,
deeper understanding of God,yeah, and I think that's that
would be the reward.
Speaker 1 (18:58):
That's the reward, I think, one of the things that
you see there is and again, Ididn't write Job, but if I did,
it's actually a really goodexamination of what it means to
be in a relationship with God,because Job has kept being made
(19:19):
weaker, he's not made stronger,throughout the entire story and
I hate that.
He I don't hate it.
I'm glad for him that he hasall of his stuff basically given
back to him and more, becausethat's an awfully nice way to
end the story.
But the argument that you makeis the argument that I would
(19:41):
make.
The relationship that God haswith Job is stronger because of
what he went through.
It's just like the trials thatyou go through as a child.
I mean, if you're bullied as achild, is that fair?
No, does it make you stronger?
Yes, if you survive bullying,you have survived something that
makes you stronger and again,it's that idea of the trials are
(20:07):
the things that perfect us.
That gold that goes into thesmelter has all the bad stuff
taken away and what it's leftwith is something that's better,
and that's a hard lesson for usto learn.
Speaker 2 (20:20):
This reminds me of.
I saw like a Navy soldier, andhe was saying that he wouldn't
wish it upon anybody to have tolose a brother or watch a friend
die.
But he is happy, if you can usethat word, that he lost a
brother or watched a friend diebecause it turned him into the
person he was today.
Now he is able to do more goodfor the world because he's grown
(20:42):
to appreciate the things he hasmore because of it, and he
always says like I wish theywere alive now, but if they were
, then I wouldn't have gonethrough the lessons that I did
and I wouldn't be able to do thegood for people that I've done
now.
Speaker 1 (20:55):
That's right, and that's a hard lesson to learn,
yeah, and that makes perfectsense to me.
I understand that I don't wishtragedy on anybody, but by the
same token, you see how tragedyoften makes people stronger.
I remember a conversation thatI had, well at this point, two
or three years ago, with JeremyDeHutt, who lost two children.
(21:17):
I can't imagine going throughthat, but I also, in a very
perverse way, I'm grateful thatI get to learn the lessons that
he did and not have the lifeexperience that he did.
Yeah, because that, to me, isfaith-building for me.
Yeah, so, anyway.
So you have a problem with Godnot giving you what you want
(21:41):
when you want it and the way youwant it.
Is that right?
Yeah, yeah, me too.
I wish I had a better answerfor you, because I think you're
always going to be.
Again, you called the hiddenGod.
I don't know why God doesn'tmake things more straightforward
, but I do know that he doesn't.
And again, when it comes tothat is the faith journey, right
(22:04):
there.
I think the other mistake wecan make is that we read God
into every decision or in everyaction, that we look for signs.
Yes, yes, and I think sometimesthose might be signs.
I think it's easier for me tolook back at my life and think
(22:25):
that might have been God actingon my behalf.
But again, god's business isGod's business, it's not mine.
Speaker 2 (22:34):
Yeah, that's something I've learned recently
is that there's nothing wrongwith looking back on my life and
saying that was definitelysomething God was trying to show
me.
But it can be a problem to goout my life thinking to myself
what is God trying to show meright now through these actions?
Because then it gets to a pointwhere I'm really really
overthinking out my life,thinking to myself what is God
trying to show me right nowthrough these actions?
Because then it gets to a pointwhere I'm really really
(22:54):
overthinking any action I do,because I'm like is God trying
to tell me something here?
Or it's like, yeah, I'll see.
I remember I walked out of workone day when I was leaving and
there was someone sitting at oneof the tables outside and he
was talking to his friend aboutthe Bible.
And I had said a prayer theother night before, like the
other night before I went to bed, asking like, can you give me
(23:16):
the boldness to talk about Godwith my coworkers at work?
And then I saw that person andI thought is that God trying to
tell me that I should go talk tothis guy?
And I eventually didn't.
And maybe maybe it was, maybeit wasn't, I don't know.
But then it got to a pointwhere, like anytime anyone would
say anything relating to God orJesus, I would think, oh,
that's God, he's trying to getme to talk to this person, and
(23:39):
it creates like almost aparalysis because I start
thinking, like, is he actuallyyeah?
Speaker 1 (23:44):
Well, let me ask you what do you do in those
situations?
Should you talk to that person?
Speaker 2 (23:51):
Yeah, I think you should Well.
So something I've been tryingto focus on recently is that
we're all made in the image ofGod, so that person is just as
important as I am.
And there's always a chancethat the person you're talking
to doesn't know Christ.
And if you think Christ is theway to heaven, you should tell
that person about it.
And I think so.
(24:13):
I mean, if you don't, then whoknows?
Maybe the reason that personnever finds out and lives a life
separate from God is becauseyou just were too selfish to, or
you were too scared of somesort of social backlash to tell
them about it.
Speaker 1 (24:29):
Yeah, and I think that second one is probably a
better reflection of what youactually go through.
I think most people are notnearly as selfish as they are
scared.
Speaker 2 (24:38):
Yeah, that's what it's been for me.
I really want to talk to peopleabout Christ when I started
taking my faith more seriouslyrecently.
I want to tell people at workabout it, but I always get kind
of paralyzed sometimes.
Why?
Because I'm like I don't wantthese people to get offended
that I'm bringing up Christ or Idon't want people to look at me
differently because I'm aChristian.
It's like I want to be able togo to work and still enjoy my
(25:01):
shifts.
But I also know some of thesepeople don't believe in God and
I would like to tell them aboutit.
How?
Speaker 1 (25:09):
can you do that?
Speaker 2 (25:11):
What I've realized recently is just so.
Tommy Matthews' famous quote ofpeople don't care how much you
know until they know how muchyou care, right.
So I tried now when I'm talkingto people that even if I can't
bring God into the conversationnaturally, without making this
person feel like I'm just tryingto force my faith upon them I
try to just really show that Icare about the person.
(25:32):
So yesterday I was working andI was me and this other girl
were working like we have towork together.
It was a station that we haveto work together.
So I try to spend the entiretime just talking to her and
asking her questions aboutherself, instead of trying to
like to every person I see, likedo you believe in God or do you
know who Jesus is?
Like I don't think there'snecessarily anything wrong with
(25:53):
that, but I try to just showthat like, hey, I care about you
and I'd like to know more aboutyou and like to get to know you
, because I think eventuallythen they're at least seeing
some sort of love of Christ inthat.
Hopefully, even if they don'tsee it, that's what I'm
portraying and then hopefully Ican get to the actual topic of
the conversation of.
Well, let me tell you why Itreat you this way.
It's because I think you weremade in the image of God and
(26:16):
because I think Christ, you know, something like that.
Speaker 1 (26:19):
Sure, sure, sure, sure.
Do you think that's a failingon your part that you can't
bring up Christianity?
Speaker 2 (26:25):
At times yes, at times there's been when people
ask me directly about my faithand like are you a Christian?
And my answer is just yes.
And I think in those points,when I look back on those points
, my answer should be more thanjust a yes.
(26:45):
I feel like it should be.
I do think I'm a Christian.
Let me can I tell you why?
Or something like that.
But at most points it's just ayes and it's because I know why.
It's because I don't reallywant to talk about it.
It's like I just I don't wantto feel like I don't know.
I'm just like nervous aboutother people hearing or
something, or I'm nervous aboutthis person looking at me
differently.
So when they ask me, are you aChristian, I just say yes and
(27:07):
let the conversation moveforward.
Speaker 1 (27:10):
Would you like to change that?
Speaker 2 (27:12):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:13):
Yes, how would you change it?
Speaker 2 (27:16):
Well, like I said, I mean I've tried more recently to
with every conversationfocusing more on the person
instead of on me.
So anytime I talk to somebodyrecently, I try to turn the
conversation completely towardsthem so they can see that I care
about them and I'm interestedin them and who they are and
(27:37):
about their life.
But I think the answer wouldjust be, the next time someone
asks me about my faith, to givethem what I see as the correct
answer instead of just sayingyes, what do you think the
correct answer is?
I think the correct answer isdefinitely yes, like you should.
If you're a Christian, youshould own up to it.
Like, don't lie.
(27:57):
But I think the correct answeris to say yes and ask them can I
tell you why?
Or maybe ask them themselves,like, are you a Christian?
And if they say no, like do youmind if I ask you why not?
Or something like that.
Speaker 1 (28:11):
Yeah, I think one of the things that Chuck talked
about again is just that courage, and I think once you get past
the courage to do it, then it'skind of the conviction to do it.
And I think one of the thingsthat you need to figure out is
and I think your impulse iscorrect, you got to care about
(28:33):
other people first.
And I think it's perfectlylegitimate to say look, I am a
Christian.
If you ever want to talk aboutthat, I am all for it, and leave
that door open.
Speaker 2 (28:45):
I used to feel really guilty that I would have, like
I'd have friends at work thatI'd known for a year or
something, like when I worked atMcDonald's, and I never talked
to Jesus about them.
But then I started to think tomyself, like, well, am I even
showing that I love them in theconversation?
Am I even talking to them as ifI care about them?
And it's like if I can't evenhave a conversation with them
(29:08):
and show to them that I lovethem, I don't think it really
matters how much I bring upJesus in the conversation,
because they're going to beturned off by the fact that,
like, I just seem like I don'tcare, or I just seem like I'm
just trying to get some numbersup.
You know in heaven, I'm justtrying to raise the baptism
rates or something, it's like.
I think I think the main, thefirst goal, like you said, or
(29:32):
like we just talked aboutearlier, like, is love others,
love your neighbor as yourselfand then love God with all your
heart, soul and strength.
I think the first goal shouldbe let me show this person I
love them and then, if they ask,or later down the line, I can
bring up you know where thislove is coming from and tell you
about Jesus, oh yeah, I thinksomething else that I would just
recommend is start giving Godcredit for things that he
deserves credit for.
(29:52):
Yeah, yes, I've tried doing that, yeah.
Speaker 1 (29:53):
Yeah, and I think that's a great way to, because I
think it's easy for us to havean inflated sense of the self
because we believe we are in somuch control of what we do.
And we're just not, we're justnot, we're just not.
Speaker 2 (30:13):
Something I've tried to focus on recently is I always
hear people say you're not theone doing the converting, it's
the Holy Spirit doing theconverting.
You're just the one talking.
And that's never how I used tothink.
Every time I would ever have aconversation about Christianity
with somebody, I would always bethinking to myself okay, how
can I break apart this person'sworldview and explain to them
why they're wrong, so I can showthem why my view of God is
(30:36):
correct, or something.
But really, then I startedthinking I'm focusing way too
much on how can I convince thisperson to believe in Christ?
How can I change this person'sheart?
And it's like I can't do that.
All I can do is tell them aboutit, and then it's up to God to
do his work, now that the seed'sbeen planted.
Speaker 1 (30:56):
Yeah, that's right.
I think something else that youneed to.
I think it's a misnomer.
Do you know what misnomer means?
Not really Okay.
What it means is callingsomething by the wrong name.
Speaker 2 (31:08):
Oh, okay, oh, I didn't know what that means,
yeah, so a misnomer.
Speaker 1 (31:11):
I think it's a misnomer or a mistake to think
that there's only one personthat converts somebody.
The fact is, you may or may notconduct a Bible study, but you
were the one who showed initialinterest, mm-hmm, you were the
one that basically introducedthem to Christian activity or
(31:34):
Christian actions.
I think there's a lot to besaid for that, and I think one
of the things that I kind ofworry about on the one hand but
I don't worry about a lot isthat when you are basically
trying to raise a Christian,it's not just one person that
(31:58):
does even most of the work.
There are so many people justat the church where you are
Names that you could rattle offjust as easily as I could that
have all had something to dowith how you became a Christian
or how you grew up as aChristian, and that is pretty
cool.
But it's not like I could havebeen all of those things to you.
(32:19):
I don't, I can't.
So Christianity is a communityproject.
Yes, yeah.
So I think that's somethingthat's important.
Okay, so you have basicallygrappled with the idea of who
God is.
You have grappled with the ideathat God just does not want to
conform to what you want him tobe.
You're just going to have tobasically come to him on his
(32:41):
terms, not yours, and basicallyyou've been grappling with the
idea of how do you evangelize,how do you tell other people
about him?
What else have you come tolearn about God or Christianity?
Speaker 2 (32:52):
Another problem I've had is I guess you call it lack
of supernatural why don't wehave miracles?
Why haven't I seen one?
I grew up in a Christian,basically a primarily Christian
society, my entire life.
(33:12):
I'm 21 now and I've never seena miracle.
Neither have I, or at leastI've never seen what I would
consider to be a miracle.
I ran this thought experimentthe other day of like maybe
there's things that are miraclesthat I just don't know, but
that's not the way we describeit in the Bible, it's something
supernatural.
So if I see something and Ithink to myself, well that could
have happened, then it'sprobably not a miracle, that's a
(33:35):
problem I struggle with.
It's like why have I never seena miracle and I talked to you
about this the other day why didMoses get to see the Red Sea
part?
Or why did Thomas get to seethe resurrected Jesus and
actually touch his?
Well, I guess in the gospelthey never tell us that he
touched his side.
But you know, you get my pointLike why don't I get to see
these kind of things?
And that's been a problem I'vehad.
Speaker 1 (33:55):
Well, one of the number one.
Moses saw the Red Sea part.
He didn't see the Jordan Riverpart.
Speaker 2 (34:04):
Did I say Jordan?
Speaker 1 (34:05):
You didn't say Jordan , and that's what you needed to
me Because it's and it's kind ofJordan and that's what you
needed to me because it's andit's it's kind of the Caleb, I
mean, joshua does the same thingwith with the Jordan river as,
and the Georgia river parts,which is far less impressive
because it's much smaller, yeah,but, but the Moses did see the
red sea part and the I think oneof the things that we've talked
(34:28):
a little bit about this.
I am curious about howconvincing the miracles truly
were.
Speaker 2 (34:37):
Yeah, you were talking with me about that the
other day.
Speaker 1 (34:40):
Because the people who saw them and participated in
them were almost neverconvinced.
Right Pharaoh did not changehis mind about who God was After
seeing 10 plagues.
Yes, after going through 10plagues, after experiencing a
lot of wrath from God, he didnot convert.
(35:01):
It did not change his mind.
Well, it changed his mindenough to say get out of here,
you guys are a pain in the rearend.
Speaker 2 (35:08):
Well, I guess, now that I think about it, I guess
my more point is like well,since I'm already a believer,
why can't I see some miracles?
You know what I mean?
I think that's more what it is.
I think it's more of like awell, you know, pharaoh didn't
even believe in God and he gotto see the plagues.
And the Egyptians didn't evenbelieve in God and they got to
see the Red Sea part.
So, god, I believe in you.
(35:30):
Why can't you show me some coolthings?
You know It'll help me not todoubt, right Like It'll help me
not to doubt right Like I cannot that it would help me
completely, but at least I knowyou exist.
Like if I walk down to the lakedown here and I saw it split,
you know, if someone asked me atwork, like does God exist?
I'd be like I bet you he does.
Like I saw the water part, but Ithink that's more my problem,
(35:52):
which is, I guess, more again aselfish thing of like you know,
I believe in you, god.
Why don't I get to see somecool things?
Speaker 1 (35:57):
Yeah, Well, and again go back to the New Testament,
where we've got miracles comingback.
The miracles are the exception,they're not the rule.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And you know, for the vasthistory of mankind we didn't see
miracles.
And again, just talk about themiracles of Jesus.
They didn't convince thePharisees of.
Speaker 2 (36:19):
Jesus.
Speaker 1 (36:20):
They didn't convince the Pharisees yeah, they didn't
convince the Sadducees yeah, forsome people, I think the
miracles of Jesus were basicallythe circus coming to town.
Yeah, this guy had no idea howhe can cure people of their
illnesses, but he sure does.
Do you know anybody sick?
And that was where they leftthe miracles, that this was just
a sideshow to get people healed.
(36:48):
And that is sad, because theydid not recognize that the
purpose of the miracles was toconfirm the teachings that he
was giving them and also confirmthat he had the power of God, I
think maybe I just strugglewith this, but I think I also
have an idea of what I wouldlike a miracle to be.
Speaker 2 (37:04):
You know, like I never.
I never saw Jesus fly aroundlike Superman, or I never saw
him.
I never.
I don't read of him likepicking up a bus or something,
yeah, and I wonder if that's howa lot of people viewed him back
then.
It's like like you said, likeyeah, he could heal, but like we
have doctors, doctors can heal.
And when he says I'm from God,people are like, well, why don't
you ride into the air in afiery chariot, like that one guy
(37:24):
did?
But it's like they maybe I betyou they were expecting
something and when they didn'tget it, they were like nah
there's just no way, so theyjust move on.
Speaker 1 (37:36):
The didn't do anything with them Right.
I think that you would probablyhave the same kind of reaction
and I don't know that for surebut I do think that even if you
saw one, I'm not sure how muchit would actually change your
faith, which is, on one hand,sad, on one hand sad Because,
(38:05):
again, I think that the miraclesthemselves were the proofs of
who God was, and almosteverybody missed it.
And I think that's I mean, youeven think about God, who you
think about Jesus, who had toturn to his apostles and say all
right, guys, you've seen meactually feed 5,000 people and
you're worried about what we'regoing to feed them now.
Yeah, you know I can do thisright.
(38:25):
Yeah, you know I can do this.
No, we didn't even okay.
Or God, the storm is about totake us out.
Why aren't you worried?
You see me like change thingsright.
You see me like raise peoplefrom the dead.
Speaker 2 (38:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (38:42):
And you're worried that a storm is going to make us
perish.
Yeah, and I think that's one ofthe things that I understand
your problem.
But I think you also recognizeyour problem, which is now
you're trying to get God to dowhat you want him to do.
Yeah, and he's just not goingto do that for you.
(39:03):
Yeah, and you're going to haveto be okay with that.
Speaker 2 (39:06):
Yeah, you see what I'm saying yeah, okay, what else
has changed.
Speaker 1 (39:12):
What other kind of questions do you have?
What kind of doubts do you have?
Speaker 2 (39:18):
I'm trying to think the evil and suffering one is
always there.
Speaker 1 (39:23):
I've been willing to.
Speaker 2 (39:28):
I usually can work that one out myself, but that
one is kind of a big deal.
Why do so many people suffer,and seemingly innocent people?
Let's just use Hurricane Miltonas an example.
Why did so many people suffer,and seemingly innocent people?
Let's just use Hurricane Miltonas an example.
Why did so many people losetheir lives and seemingly?
I would guess I would call theminnocent people, and I'm
willing to bet some of them werechildren, it's like.
(39:49):
Why did they lose their lives?
Or there's children in thirdworld countries that are dying
to diseases.
Speaker 1 (39:55):
Why doesn't?
Speaker 2 (39:56):
God, just stop the disease.
Speaker 1 (39:58):
Right, right.
Do you have an answer for that?
Speaker 2 (40:01):
I heard one guy say that he God's primary purpose is
to get people to choose himfreely, and if he was to
intervene, even in the smallestdegree, it could lead to people
choosing him out of like safetyfrom harm and not choosing him
for the right reason, which issomething that made sense to me.
(40:22):
I heard someone else say thatGod created the natural world.
But natural things happen andit's not God's control.
That one doesn't work well forme, just because I don't know he
(40:42):
created it that way, so whycan't he stop it?
I don't know.
I completely understandman-made suffering.
I don't blame God for murder,because that just seems kind of
dumb.
It wasn't God who did themurder, it was this guy who did
the murder, free will.
But I have a hard time notblaming God for kids dying of
(41:06):
diseases in Africa or kids dyingfrom a hurricane.
It's like, well, we didn't haveany control over that and we
can't stop that.
So why did you just let thesepeople die, do?
Speaker 1 (41:15):
you have an answer for that?
I don't think so.
These people die, yeah, do youhave an answer for that?
I don't think so Do you thinkthat?
Means that there's not a God?
No, no, it doesn't.
Speaker 2 (41:31):
Does it mean that God's not good?
See, I don't know, because mythought process is that goodness
is God.
Speaker 1 (41:41):
I do too.
Speaker 2 (41:42):
I agree with that.
Whatever God does is good bydefinition, but it's hard to
tell somebody that well, it wasa good thing If God is directly
controlling the hurricane, whichI don't necessarily know if
that's true, but if he is, it'shard to tell somebody.
Well, it's a good thing thatyour child died, because God did
it.
(42:02):
And that makes it good.
Speaker 1 (42:04):
Was it good that Job lost everything it was in the
long run Like for him.
Speaker 2 (42:12):
Was it good in the moment?
No, but it wasn't God doing it,it was.
Speaker 1 (42:18):
Satan, I guess.
Yeah, I think one of the thingsyou're grappling with is we
live in a place that is broken.
We live in a place that is lessthan perfect, and if you want
to make it perfect, what happensto us?
If you want to live in a placethat is perfect, what happens to
(42:40):
us?
Oh, we got to go, yeah.
Speaker 2 (42:44):
Yeah, why?
Because we're not perfect.
Speaker 1 (42:48):
That's right.
So we live in an imperfectworld until we're redeemed into
a perfect world.
Speaker 2 (42:56):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (42:57):
Does that make sense?
Do you see that we're redeemedinto a perfect world?
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (42:58):
Does that make sense?
Yeah, do you see that?
That reminds me of John Lennox.
He was a theist mathematicianand he said that human beings
right now are trying to createperfect beings in perfect
environments.
We've done it.
It's called computers and it'scalled robotics, but those
people don't actually doanything Like robots, don't do
(43:20):
anything moral.
They've done it.
It's called computers and it'scalled robotics, but those
people don't actually doanything.
Robots don't do anything moral.
They're not good.
They may do exactly what youtold them to do every single
time, but they're not doing itof their own volition.
And if you create anenvironment where it works
exactly the way you told it to,it's just happening and there's
nothing bad.
There's nothing good, there'snothing bad, there's no moral
(43:41):
value at all, because it's justrobots.
Speaker 1 (43:46):
There are a lot of people that I know that I think
a lot of that are worried aboutartificial intelligence.
The thing about artificialintelligence is it's not getting
its intelligence from anythingother than other people.
As good as they are atpredicting the next word in the
large language models, it canjust as easily be wrong as it
(44:08):
can be right, and it still takessomebody with the ability to
think well to figure out if theartificial intelligence is
actually authentic intelligenceor if it's artificial.
And I think the better that itgets at giving us the right
(44:29):
answers, the factual answers,the verifiable answers, the
better it is, the more useful itis.
Does that replace us?
No, I don't ever see thatartificial intelligence will
replace us because and you'vekind of already made this
argument computers are not moral.
Speaker 2 (44:50):
Yeah, computers do not have a soul, and I mean this
wasn't going to be a computerdiscussion, but we still,
science still does notunderstand where the if there's
no God and if everything is justnatural.
They don't understand where thecreative mechanism came from in
human beings.
So an AI could not actuallycreate something.
(45:12):
It could just produce somethingusing blueprints that's already
been given and, as someone whoworks with computers, that's how
AIs create.
That's how AI writes programs.
They're told logic and they'retold how the syntax works and
they just create it using that.
But they can't create somethingnew because they don't have
that in their database.
They can only create somethingthat they've already been given
(45:34):
that's exactly right.
Speaker 1 (45:38):
What would you tell yourself like 10 years ago?
Because, you well, maybe noteven 10 years ago.
When were you baptized, youwere 16.
16?
, yeah, five years ago.
So five years ago, what wouldyou tell yourself five years ago
?
What's changed?
Hmm?
Speaker 2 (46:00):
I think, I don't know , I wish I would have taken it.
Okay, so this is a hard onebecause I wish I would have.
If I could go back, I wouldtell myself to take it more
seriously when I was baptized,but at the same time, I don't
like telling people that theyhave to be seriously committed
(46:22):
before they get baptized,because I think it creates this
fear of like, well, I'm not goodenough to be baptized yet.
And I don't want people to feelthat way, because I don't think
that's correct.
Like I think the reason you getI mean everyone uses the
metaphor of, like you don't getin the shower when you're clean,
you get in the shower whenyou're clean.
You get in the shower whenyou're dirty.
So you don't get baptizedbecause you're sinless.
The reason you get baptized isbecause you are sinful.
(46:47):
But I think one thing I wouldtell my younger self is to
understand the decision you'remaking and try to take it more
seriously.
If you actually believe it,take it more seriously.
And I don't know how much Iactually believed it, but maybe
I would just try to tell himexactly what I just talked to
you about, like, give him moreevidence to try to convince him
(47:07):
to really believe it.
But I wish I would have takenit more seriously when I was 16,
because I think I got baptizedand for five years I just didn't
care.
I still lived the life I didbefore.
I just got baptized as a safetyprecaution.
If Christianity's right and Idie tomorrow, then at least I'll
be baptized and I'll have abetter chance of going to heaven
.
I think that's what my brainwas telling me.
I wish I would have taken itmore seriously.
(47:30):
But again, like I said, I'mkind of going in circles here.
I wouldn't tell myself toreconsider the baptism, I would
just kind of urge myself to takeit more seriously.
Speaker 1 (47:45):
Did you have enough experience to take it more
seriously?
Speaker 2 (47:51):
I think I had enough to do something I think I could
have been doing.
I mean, obviously you couldalways be doing better, you
could always be doing more good,but I think I could have been
doing a lot more good than I wasat the time.
I don't think at the time thatI was using my abilities and my
experience to the fullest, so Ithink I could have.
(48:13):
There's a lot more reasonablegood that I could have been
doing, not just hypothetical ohI could have done this, but I
think there's a lot morereasonable good that I could
have, that I could have beendoing, not just like
hypothetical, oh I could havedone this, but like I think
there's a lot that I could havedone that I just chose not to
because I didn't care.
But I think that's what I wouldurge someone like me now, like a
very, a younger person, like,if, if you believe this, if
you're baptized and if youbelieve this, well then you
(48:34):
should try to find out if youbelieve it first.
But if you believe this, findwhat you could do.
Just find something you can do.
Did you believe it at thatpoint?
I don't know, I don't know.
I believed in a God.
I did If belief just meansintellectual acceptance, like I
thought there was a God and thatwas my thought, that was my
(48:58):
statement was I think God exists, but I didn't believe it in the
acting sense.
Speaker 1 (49:05):
It wasn't enough to compel me to do anything, do you
?
Think it's reasonable to growinto a faith.
Speaker 2 (49:11):
Yeah, yeah, but at the same time.
Speaker 1 (49:18):
I Could have done more.
Speaker 2 (49:19):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, but I don't know how to put this.
I think it's definitelyreasonable to grow into a faith,
but if you're young and you getbaptized and you just get
baptized out of peer pressure Idon't think that changes the
fact that you got baptized andnow you still just don't care
and you're just doing what youwanted to before.
(49:41):
Now, yeah, like I think there'sa growth there and part of it
is growth, but did that makesense?
Speaker 1 (49:51):
It does but I think one of the things that you can't
see, but I do is that youusually appreciate things more
after they're gone.
Yeah, yeah, you realize, atthis point you're 21.
Mm-hmm, 21 years you have spentbasically with your mom and I.
With an exception of the firstfew years, mm-hmm, you have
(50:19):
spent the majority of time thatyou will ever spend with us.
That, from here on out, youwill spend far less time with us
do you recognize that?
yeah, and I don't think you'llrecognize what you lost until
it's actually gone.
(50:39):
That said, the relationshipstarts before you understand it.
Speaker 2 (50:49):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (50:49):
Before you appreciate what it is, after things change
, after you begin to realizethat, no, I really am a
Christian.
No, I really do have problems.
Yes, god really can fix things.
Because I think, as you begin,you have real reservations about
(51:12):
all of those things.
But it's the beginning of arelationship but it's the
beginning of a relationship.
Speaker 2 (51:19):
I guess the reason I have this thought process is,
like I'm always taught that theonly way you can lose salvation
is if you choose to turn awayfrom God, if you choose to no
longer be a child of God.
But I'm also taught that we'renot once saved, always saved.
Once you're baptized, you canchoose to go away.
(51:40):
But my thing is, I got baptizedwhen I was 16, but then for the
next five years I really onlywent to church.
I guess maybe for the nextthree, once I got to college, I
started to take it moreseriously.
But for the rest of high schoolso 16, maybe 18 or 19, like I
(52:00):
only went to church becausey'all did.
And even when I got my own caror not my car, but we didn't
even got my driver's licenseLike I still only went to church
because you guys were going,that's right, and I was just
afraid of being judged by youguys for staying home, okay, and
I didn't read my Bible ever.
I didn't really.
I only prayed before meals,because that's what I've been
taught to do.
But it's like the reason Ithink this way is like, well, if
(52:24):
baptism is part of salvation,then for those next three years?
Did I just completely lose itbecause I turned away and that
doesn't affect me now becauseI've come back but I fear for
other kids like they're 16, 17,that have been baptized and are
not doing anything with it.
Are they no longer savedbecause they're choosing not to
do anything?
(52:44):
Does that make sense?
Speaker 1 (52:46):
It does.
But one of the things that Iwould say is I think they need
to have an awakening about whatthat relationship means, and my
argument would be to you aboutthem Are they truly in a
relationship with God or arethey not?
And I think one of the thingsthat happens and it's one of the
(53:08):
things that we talk about, whenwe have to disfellowship from
somebody in church, in otherwords, we have to get, basically
we take them off the roll, butthe reason we do is because they
haven't been showing up tochurch, and at that point, it's
not so much that we'redisfellowshipping ourselves from
them.
They've alreadydisfellowshipped themselves from
(53:29):
us, and so we're kind of, insome ways, just recognizing a
reality that's already there.
Speaker 2 (53:35):
Right, just saying okay, you don't want to be here,
that's fine.
Speaker 1 (53:38):
Yeah, well, that's already there, right, just
saying, okay, you don't want tobe here, that's fine.
Yeah, well, it's not fine.
But the thing about that is, Ithink, when you think about your
relationship with God, is itauthentic?
Is it yours?
And I think it's perfectlyreasonable for your mom and I to
take you guys to church?
Yeah, but at some point.
(53:59):
What you're going through rightnow is you overcoming your
upbringing.
Do you see what I'm saying?
Yeah, you're starting to forgea relationship with God.
That's yours, not your mother'sand mine, and I think that's
reasonable.
I think that happens to a lotof people.
I hope you do the same thingfor your kids reasonable, I
think that happens to a lot ofpeople.
(54:20):
I hope you do the same thingfor your kids.
I hope you basically give themthe germ and the seeds and just
start thinking about who God isand start asking the right
questions.
But you're figuring this outyourself.
You can't answer that for yourkids.
You can't answer because that'stheir relationship.
It's not yours.
See what I'm saying.
(54:41):
Okay, what else do we need totalk about?
I don't know I don't know either.
All right, I had all thepodcasts with be good and do
good.
What's good about establishingyour own faith?
Speaker 2 (54:59):
I think it makes you a.
It makes you you grow closer toGod, which I think just makes
you do more good.
Does that make sense.
Speaker 1 (55:16):
That does.
That does.
In other words, what's goodabout finding your own or
creating your own faith?
It's good.
Okay, I can handle that.
Jake, I'm very proud of you.
Thank you.
I'm glad you're turning into aChristian.
Thank you.
Yes, as you might be able tofigure out, I am proud of my son
(55:41):
, but I'm proud of all four ofmy children Emma, jake, kent and
Abby.
I think they've all turned intofine young men and women.
That said, it's been anexciting time to be a father
watching their Christian walkand how they have developed
their own relationships with God.
For the record, I'm excited totalk to anybody in my family,
(56:05):
but Jake is one of the few thatis willing to get behind the
microphone and talk about hisfaith.
If you're interested, Jake hasstarted his own YouTube channel
where he talks about why hebelieves in God and how he came
to the conclusions he has aboutGod.
If you're interested in findingout about that, I'll put his
information in the show notes.
So until next time, let's begood and do good.
In this episode of Balancing the Christian Life, we
follow one Christian's journey,my son Jake.
Welcome to Balancing theChristian Life.
I'm Dr Kenny Embry.
Join me as we discover how tobe better Christians and people
in the digital age.
So how did you grow up as aChristian?
(00:20):
As some of you may know, thispodcast was originally targeted
toward my son, jake, and at atime when he was about 17.
There were conversations I knewI wanted to have with him, but
I wasn't sure exactly how theywould happen.
Well, this is anotherconversation with my son Jake,
and now he's 21.
I just wanted to see whatChristianity looked like from a
(00:41):
21-year-old's point of view.
So we just start with some verysimple questions about what his
relationship looks like withGod.
Who is God?
I have a hard timeconceptualizing.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
I know he's the creator and I know he is a
heavenly father and as aChristian, I believe he's also
the son but I have a hard timevisualizing him.
Why, I don't know.
I used to think of him as a manin the sky and I've abandoned
(01:16):
that idea, I guess but it's morebecause I feel like it's wrong.
I didn't abandon it because Idon't still think that way.
I try not to think that way nowbecause I feel like I'm
thinking about it wrong.
Speaker 1 (01:25):
Do you think it's important that you have a visual
image of who God is?
Speaker 2 (01:28):
For me it is.
I'm a very visual person.
I visualize everything, so it'seasier for me to understand
something if I can think abouthow the thing might look like.
Speaker 1 (01:38):
Okay, what if you're not going to get that?
Speaker 2 (01:41):
Then I guess it wouldn't be important, because
when you asked that question myfirst thought was no, it's not
important to my salvationwhether I can have a picture of
God.
But it makes it really hard forme sometimes because I have a
hard time picturing Him and.
I think of a lot of things andimages and pictures.
Speaker 1 (01:59):
Yeah, you've been going through a journey of what
we call apologetics.
You've been talking to me andyou've been thinking about
things like who is God, how doyou know that there is a God,
and things like that.
What are some of the thingsthat you've learned within the
last few years?
Speaker 2 (02:16):
fine-tuning of the universe.
That's been the one that's beenon my mind a lot, yeah and how
there's universal constants andthey're very specific values.
The idea proposed is that ifthey were off by a hair's
breadth then the world wouldn'texist, right?
So that's been one that I'vebeen thinking about recently,
(02:38):
which has strengthened my faithin God.
Speaker 1 (02:41):
How so, how so.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
I just have a hard time believing that it could be
anywhere else the the threelogical arguments I heard was
that it would either be chance,necessity or design, and the
probability of it being chanceis so extremely low.
Speaker 1 (02:54):
It's like okay, just stop that for a second and
unpack each one of those.
What is chance?
What is necessity?
What is design?
Speaker 2 (03:01):
So chance would say that our universe was created by
an accident.
There was a, it just happened.
Yeah, yeah, the Big Bang justhappened, and then these
universal constants also justhappened, and they just happened
to be the correct values weneed to sustain life.
Speaker 1 (03:18):
Well, yeah, all the scientists believe that.
Speaker 2 (03:21):
Why don't you believe ?
Speaker 1 (03:22):
that.
Speaker 2 (03:22):
I just find that very hard to believe Nothing in our
universe that I, the sciencebacks this up, jake, the science
backs this up.
Well, from what I understand,the science doesn't say that
it's chance.
They just know what the valuesare, and that's one of the
theories is that it could bechance.
I just find that so hard tobelieve.
I don't know exactly the number, but it's like 1 in 10 to the
(03:43):
something.
It's such an extremely lownumber.
I almost just refuse to believethat we live in a universe that
has existed for at least 2,024years.
That is completely by accident.
Okay, so you believe in a youngEarth.
Well, I mean, it's at least2,024 years old, because we're
(04:05):
in year 2024, but right, I don'tknow exactly how old the earth
is, but I just I refuse tobelieve that it all happened by
chance.
I, I completely understand.
Speaker 1 (04:16):
What is this necessity argument?
You're basically talking aboutchance, which, yeah, the
necessity argument.
Speaker 2 (04:21):
what I've heard about the necessity argument is that
when the Big Bang happened, thatbecause these values are the
way that they need to be, orbecause these values have to be
this way in order to sustainlife, that through some
necessity they just alignedthemselves that way because it
had to be that way.
That doesn't seem, that doesn'tmake sense to me, because when
(04:45):
I think, if you believe in amaterialist world which, if
you're atheist, I think you haveto If there's no God, then you
have to believe.
Speaker 1 (04:53):
What do?
Speaker 2 (04:53):
you mean by a materialist world?
Worlds only matter in energy.
There's nothing divine, there'snothing transcendent, it's all
just stuff.
Speaker 1 (05:03):
Yeah, can you see anything?
Speaker 2 (05:04):
more than just stuff.
I can't see anything more thanjust stuff, but when I think
about, well, consciousness ismore than just stuff.
So if I'm thinkingconsciousness is more than just
stuff, yeah, you're right.
But when I think about the ideaof a universe with just stuff
and then these invisible stuff,these constants needed to align
(05:25):
themselves that way, I feel likeneed implies some sort of fate
or intention behind the aligningso there's a problem with that
necessity argument.
Speaker 1 (05:35):
What do you think the big problem with the necessity?
Speaker 2 (05:37):
argument is.
I just think it doesn't stand.
I think in order to why?
Why I think necessity impliesan underlying order, almost, or
some sort of intention.
But if the world is just matterand energy, I don't see how
invisible forces can haveintention.
It also implies that the goalof the values was to sustain
(06:00):
life, and that's why they alignthemselves that way, and that
doesn't work, because if all youhave is matter and energy,
there is no such thing as a goal.
A goal would be somethingmetaphysical, not physical.
It's just a goal, is an idea.
We have something arbitrarythat we pursue.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
Yeah, and really, when you come to that necessity
argument, what it has to be iswell, I mean, the world is like
this because it has to be.
Is well, I mean the world islike this because it has to be
like this, right, because wecouldn't have a world if we
didn't have this.
So we need it to be this wayand it I think you're you're
cottoning on to the problem withthat argument, which is it kind
(06:38):
of starts by begging thequestion.
Do you understand what I meanby begging the question?
Speaker 2 (06:43):
well, like that why does it have to be that way?
Or does it need to be that?
Speaker 1 (06:47):
way, that's exactly right, and and the way they
answer, that is well, justbecause it does.
Speaker 2 (06:52):
Yeah, to me that seems that one seems more
ridiculous than the chance.
I'm at least willing to believethe possibility of the chance
argument.
I know the probability isreally really, really, really
low, but at least it's probable.
It's very improbable but itcould have happened that way.
But necessity I just don't eventhink makes sense.
It had to be that way.
Speaker 1 (07:12):
But there's nothing transcendent that directed it
that way.
Speaker 2 (07:16):
That doesn't make any sense to me, right.
Speaker 1 (07:18):
And then, when you come to the probability argument
, again that idea that it isimprobable and yet here we are.
Yeah, so I mean, I think, withthe probability argument, one of
the things that scientistscontinue to do is well, we just
have to make the universe bigger, we just had to add more time,
(07:40):
we have to add more variables,so this all makes sense.
Do you see what that?
I think I see where you're goingyeah, okay, one of the
arguments that they talk aboutsometimes is how long would it
take a room full of monkeystyping on a typewriter to get
the works of shakespeare?
Yeah, right, have you heard?
Speaker 2 (07:57):
that okay.
Well, this kind of goes thatthe inside the necessity
argument.
I've heard the theory of themultiverse proposed that we live
in a universe, we live in amultiverse and there's just
universes are constantly beingcreated, Right, and that if that
is the case, that would makesense.
If universe are infinitelybeing created forever, then just
(08:20):
by necessity you wouldeventually get one that has the
correct values to sustain life.
But that still doesn't answerthe question of well, where did
the multiverse come from?
Because if you keep going backand back and back and back,
eventually there has to be.
If there's always something,then where did the something
come from?
And something doesn't come fromnothing, so eventually the
(08:42):
something would have had to comefrom an eternal something yeah,
yeah, and that's a hard thingto to grapple with.
Speaker 1 (08:47):
Yeah, because one of the things that we haven't
really addressed yet is thequestion you're trying to answer
isn't a scientific question.
No, why not?
Speaker 2 (08:57):
because well, uh, I I look towards scientific
evidence, but so the questionI'm trying to answer is is there
a meaning to life?
Does life have value?
Uh-huh, and that would not be ascientific question, that would
(09:22):
be a moral question.
Speaker 1 (09:23):
It's a moral question .
But what other kind of questionis it?
It's not just moral.
Look, the beauty of science isit does a great job of
predicting patterns.
You look outside, you see thatyou have dark skies.
You better get an umbrella why?
Because the pattern is, whenyou see dark skies, it's
probably going to rain.
Science is great at answeringthose questions.
(09:46):
If you take this drug, thisdrug is likely to fix your
problem.
That's why, again, anotherpattern.
And yet when we look at whatkind of question you're asking,
you're talking about things thatonly happen once.
Right, and science is lousywith things that only happen
(10:07):
once, because they're just goingto go back and, okay, this
pattern, it happened like thisbefore and I guess before that
it happened the same way yeahokay, what you're looking at
isn't just a moral question,it's.
Science does a great job withnature, but the beginning of
(10:28):
something happened outside ofnature.
Yes, and by definition of whatit is, it's supernatural.
Mm-hmm.
Do you understand?
Do you see that?
Yeah, okay, which leads you toyour third argument.
Do you understand?
Do you see that?
Yeah, Okay, which leads you toyour third argument Design,
right, yes, so how did youarrive at design?
Speaker 2 (10:49):
So design makes the most sense to me because when I
well, so chance just seems verylow.
So I'm not ruling it out and Ithink that's reasonable.
Speaker 1 (11:00):
I think you can't rule it out.
Speaker 2 (11:02):
It just seems very improbable.
Speaker 1 (11:03):
Necessity.
Speaker 2 (11:04):
I don't think just makes any sense at all With
design.
It at least adds up with theway the rest of the universe
works.
So when I see a baby, I don'tthink, oh, I wonder how the baby
got there.
I assume that the baby wascreated through sexual
reproduction.
If I see a book, I don't go ohwow, I wonder how this book got
(11:25):
here.
I look at the book and I thinksomeone must have wrote the book
.
If I work on I do computers forschool when I'm looking at a
program I don't think, oh, wow,it's crazy that this program
just happened to be this way.
I think that someone actuallywrote the program.
So at least design adds up withthe way the rest of the
universe works.
Everything that we have in theuniverse that is created by
(11:46):
humans is created.
It's done, created.
The only thing we don't know isthe stuff outside of humans.
But as far as I can tell, itwould make sense.
If all of living beings, or ifall of life creates more things,
then it would make sense thatthe stuff outside of life would
also have been created.
Does that make sense?
Speaker 1 (12:06):
Yes, it makes perfect sense, and one of the things
you're talking about.
This is really a very abstractway of proving God, and it
doesn't necessarily even proveGod.
What it does is it gives you areasonable argument why you
might believe that God exists.
So I think that's a beautifulargument.
Is that the only way that youcan argue that God exists?
So I think that's a beautifulargument.
Is that the only way that youcan argue that God exists?
(12:27):
No, how else could you arguethat God exists?
Speaker 2 (12:31):
So one of the another one that I like is the free
will argument, which is thathumans seem to have a capacity
to bypass their animal instinct.
So an argument I used in avideo I made recently was if so,
charlie, your son-in-law, mybrother-in-law, sent me a video
(12:52):
in our group chat or one of ourSnapchat group chats of a cow
and they were branding the cow.
And when they put the brand onthe cow, it started shaking and
like running away, and then,once they opened the gate, the
cow ran off.
But if I put my hand on a hotstove, it'll hurt, but I could
choose to leave my hand on thehot stove, right, the cow
doesn't have the ability tochoose to just sit there and
deal with the pain of the brand,and that seems to me to be very
(13:16):
interesting.
Why are?
Why are human beings the onlybeings capable of like?
Right now, I'm really hungry,but I'm not getting up to go eat
anything.
I'm choosing to sit here andtalk.
So, but when, when our dog ishungry, it just goes and gets
food, it doesn't choose to sitthere and starve, right?
Speaker 1 (13:36):
That seems to me to at least beg the question of why
are we able to do that andother beings are not?
Yeah, and I don't, I don't.
Speaker 2 (13:40):
I've heard that we just evolved to a higher order,
but that doesn't answer thequestion of where in the
evolutionary chain did it comefrom?
Like, at what point did themonkey go from?
Just monkey, see monkey do tomonkey see monkey, think about
thing and then monkey do I don'tsee where that part comes to be
Right right?
Speaker 1 (13:58):
Well, so you got your free will argument.
You got basically an argumentabout the beginning of time and
the beginning of creation.
Sure, what other arguments doyou have?
Speaker 2 (14:12):
There's the moral argument that most human beings
and this is really interesting.
I was listening to a debaterecently between Richard Dawkins
and John Lennox.
John Lennox is a theist,richard Dawkins and John Lennox
John Lennox is an atheist,richard Dawkins is an atheist
and Richard Dawkins actuallysaid to himself all human beings
seem to have an underlyingunderstanding of morality and it
(14:34):
really begs the question oflike well how.
Yeah, where did that come from?
Yeah, because my dog doesn'thave an underlying sense of
morality.
When my girlfriend walksthrough the door, my dog will
just run at her and bark.
But Kent doesn't run at her andbark, kent just says hi.
There obviously seems to besome sort of understanding of
well, it's not very nice to gorun at someone and yell at them
(14:54):
when they enter the house.
And if the world is just matterand energy, morality is
something super, super abstract.
I mean, it's this idea of that,it's the ought argument that CS
Lewis proposed.
You can't have an ought from anis.
You can't have the world, itjust is.
(15:16):
But you ought to do this thing.
That doesn't make sense.
Why should I ought to do thatthing?
That doesn't Right right, right.
Speaker 1 (15:23):
So now you've got the moral argument.
What?
Speaker 2 (15:25):
other arguments do you have?
Well, those are the three bigones Order and design, free will
and morality.
I'm sure there's a bunch ofothers, but Well, there's a
historical argument as well.
Yeah for the argument of Jesus,yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:39):
So I mean again that there is a God.
Have you figured out anythingabout him yet?
Speaker 2 (15:57):
See, this is where, like, this was going to be the
topic of the talk I wanted totalk to you about, like I have
reasons to believe in God, but Ialso feel like I have reasons
not to.
The biggest one on my mindright now is people call it
divine hiddenness or hiddenwhatever.
I don't know God being hidden.
Speaker 1 (16:18):
You can't see him.
Speaker 2 (16:19):
Yeah, he's invisible, can't hear him, can't speak to
him.
I can speak to him, but hedoesn't seem to speak back in
the way that I would.
I can't hear his voice like Ican hear yours.
I can't touch him, I can't seehim.
So how do I even know he exists?
And that's been a really bigproblem for me, because I'll
pray about something and I don'thear a booming voice from the
(16:41):
skies or I don't see, you know,a vision of bright light like
Paul did.
So it's like how do I even knowGod?
How do I even know there'ssomething there?
Listening to my prayer, I feellike I'm just on my knees saying
stuff, but I don't.
I don't get any response.
Right, why does that bother you?
I think the reason it bothersme.
(17:03):
Well, so the reason it bothersme is because I would like God
to do that.
That's been what I've come tois the main reasons I don't
believe in God is because Goddoes not act the way I wish he
would act.
But in my head I kind of reasonout that, like I feel like this
is a reasonable way for God toact.
If I go to you and ask aquestion, you give me an answer.
(17:27):
So why, when I go to God andask a question, you give me an
answer.
So why, when I go to God andask a question, he doesn't give?
Speaker 1 (17:29):
me an answer, the same way you would give me an
answer.
Speaker 2 (17:30):
It's just hard for me to get around.
Speaker 1 (17:32):
Well, I understand that.
One of the things that I'lltell you and you're not asking
me about this, but I'm sure atsome point you will you're just
going to have to come to termswith that is the way it is, and
we've talked before about Ithink one of the most important
books in the Bible is Job,because Job is basically tempted
(17:57):
and put through a bunch oftrials.
I mean, he's just hit on overand over and over again and at
the end of his trials Goddoesn't tell him what went on.
It's a very dissatisfyingending from our perspective.
Speaker 2 (18:19):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (18:21):
Did Job, do the right thing.
Speaker 2 (18:24):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:25):
Yeah, was Job rewarded for his righteousness?
Speaker 2 (18:33):
At the end.
Yeah, he got everything back,doesn't he?
Speaker 1 (18:35):
He gets all his stuff back.
Yeah, yeah, he does.
He absolutely does.
If he didn't get all of hisstuff back, would he have been
rewarded?
Speaker 2 (18:43):
Yeah, I mean physically, no, I guess, but I
guess spiritually he gained adeeper relationship with God,
deeper understanding of God,yeah, and I think that's that
would be the reward.
Speaker 1 (18:58):
That's the reward, I think, one of the things that
you see there is and again, Ididn't write Job, but if I did,
it's actually a really goodexamination of what it means to
be in a relationship with God,because Job has kept being made
(19:19):
weaker, he's not made stronger,throughout the entire story and
I hate that.
He I don't hate it.
I'm glad for him that he hasall of his stuff basically given
back to him and more, becausethat's an awfully nice way to
end the story.
But the argument that you makeis the argument that I would
(19:41):
make.
The relationship that God haswith Job is stronger because of
what he went through.
It's just like the trials thatyou go through as a child.
I mean, if you're bullied as achild, is that fair?
No, does it make you stronger?
Yes, if you survive bullying,you have survived something that
makes you stronger and again,it's that idea of the trials are
(20:07):
the things that perfect us.
That gold that goes into thesmelter has all the bad stuff
taken away and what it's leftwith is something that's better,
and that's a hard lesson for usto learn.
Speaker 2 (20:20):
This reminds me of.
I saw like a Navy soldier, andhe was saying that he wouldn't
wish it upon anybody to have tolose a brother or watch a friend
die.
But he is happy, if you can usethat word, that he lost a
brother or watched a friend diebecause it turned him into the
person he was today.
Now he is able to do more goodfor the world because he's grown
(20:42):
to appreciate the things he hasmore because of it, and he
always says like I wish theywere alive now, but if they were
, then I wouldn't have gonethrough the lessons that I did
and I wouldn't be able to do thegood for people that I've done
now.
Speaker 1 (20:55):
That's right, and that's a hard lesson to learn,
yeah, and that makes perfectsense to me.
I understand that I don't wishtragedy on anybody, but by the
same token, you see how tragedyoften makes people stronger.
I remember a conversation thatI had, well at this point, two
or three years ago, with JeremyDeHutt, who lost two children.
(21:17):
I can't imagine going throughthat, but I also, in a very
perverse way, I'm grateful thatI get to learn the lessons that
he did and not have the lifeexperience that he did.
Yeah, because that, to me, isfaith-building for me.
Yeah, so, anyway.
So you have a problem with Godnot giving you what you want
(21:41):
when you want it and the way youwant it.
Is that right?
Yeah, yeah, me too.
I wish I had a better answerfor you, because I think you're
always going to be.
Again, you called the hiddenGod.
I don't know why God doesn'tmake things more straightforward
, but I do know that he doesn't.
And again, when it comes tothat is the faith journey, right
(22:04):
there.
I think the other mistake wecan make is that we read God
into every decision or in everyaction, that we look for signs.
Yes, yes, and I think sometimesthose might be signs.
I think it's easier for me tolook back at my life and think
(22:25):
that might have been God actingon my behalf.
But again, god's business isGod's business, it's not mine.
Speaker 2 (22:34):
Yeah, that's something I've learned recently
is that there's nothing wrongwith looking back on my life and
saying that was definitelysomething God was trying to show
me.
But it can be a problem to goout my life thinking to myself
what is God trying to show meright now through these actions?
Because then it gets to a pointwhere I'm really really
overthinking out my life,thinking to myself what is God
trying to show me right nowthrough these actions?
Because then it gets to a pointwhere I'm really really
(22:54):
overthinking any action I do,because I'm like is God trying
to tell me something here?
Or it's like, yeah, I'll see.
I remember I walked out of workone day when I was leaving and
there was someone sitting at oneof the tables outside and he
was talking to his friend aboutthe Bible.
And I had said a prayer theother night before, like the
other night before I went to bed, asking like, can you give me
(23:16):
the boldness to talk about Godwith my coworkers at work?
And then I saw that person andI thought is that God trying to
tell me that I should go talk tothis guy?
And I eventually didn't.
And maybe maybe it was, maybeit wasn't, I don't know.
But then it got to a pointwhere, like anytime anyone would
say anything relating to God orJesus, I would think, oh,
that's God, he's trying to getme to talk to this person, and
(23:39):
it creates like almost aparalysis because I start
thinking, like, is he actuallyyeah?
Speaker 1 (23:44):
Well, let me ask you what do you do in those
situations?
Should you talk to that person?
Speaker 2 (23:51):
Yeah, I think you should Well.
So something I've been tryingto focus on recently is that
we're all made in the image ofGod, so that person is just as
important as I am.
And there's always a chancethat the person you're talking
to doesn't know Christ.
And if you think Christ is theway to heaven, you should tell
that person about it.
And I think so.
(24:13):
I mean, if you don't, then whoknows?
Maybe the reason that personnever finds out and lives a life
separate from God is becauseyou just were too selfish to, or
you were too scared of somesort of social backlash to tell
them about it.
Speaker 1 (24:29):
Yeah, and I think that second one is probably a
better reflection of what youactually go through.
I think most people are notnearly as selfish as they are
scared.
Speaker 2 (24:38):
Yeah, that's what it's been for me.
I really want to talk to peopleabout Christ when I started
taking my faith more seriouslyrecently.
I want to tell people at workabout it, but I always get kind
of paralyzed sometimes.
Why?
Because I'm like I don't wantthese people to get offended
that I'm bringing up Christ or Idon't want people to look at me
differently because I'm aChristian.
It's like I want to be able togo to work and still enjoy my
(25:01):
shifts.
But I also know some of thesepeople don't believe in God and
I would like to tell them aboutit.
How?
Speaker 1 (25:09):
can you do that?
Speaker 2 (25:11):
What I've realized recently is just so.
Tommy Matthews' famous quote ofpeople don't care how much you
know until they know how muchyou care, right.
So I tried now when I'm talkingto people that even if I can't
bring God into the conversationnaturally, without making this
person feel like I'm just tryingto force my faith upon them I
try to just really show that Icare about the person.
(25:32):
So yesterday I was working andI was me and this other girl
were working like we have towork together.
It was a station that we haveto work together.
So I try to spend the entiretime just talking to her and
asking her questions aboutherself, instead of trying to
like to every person I see, likedo you believe in God or do you
know who Jesus is?
Like I don't think there'snecessarily anything wrong with
(25:53):
that, but I try to just showthat like, hey, I care about you
and I'd like to know more aboutyou and like to get to know you
, because I think eventuallythen they're at least seeing
some sort of love of Christ inthat.
Hopefully, even if they don'tsee it, that's what I'm
portraying and then hopefully Ican get to the actual topic of
the conversation of.
Well, let me tell you why Itreat you this way.
It's because I think you weremade in the image of God and
(26:16):
because I think Christ, you know, something like that.
Speaker 1 (26:19):
Sure, sure, sure, sure.
Do you think that's a failingon your part that you can't
bring up Christianity?
Speaker 2 (26:25):
At times yes, at times there's been when people
ask me directly about my faithand like are you a Christian?
And my answer is just yes.
And I think in those points,when I look back on those points
, my answer should be more thanjust a yes.
(26:45):
I feel like it should be.
I do think I'm a Christian.
Let me can I tell you why?
Or something like that.
But at most points it's just ayes and it's because I know why.
It's because I don't reallywant to talk about it.
It's like I just I don't wantto feel like I don't know.
I'm just like nervous aboutother people hearing or
something, or I'm nervous aboutthis person looking at me
differently.
So when they ask me, are you aChristian, I just say yes and
(27:07):
let the conversation moveforward.
Speaker 1 (27:10):
Would you like to change that?
Speaker 2 (27:12):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:13):
Yes, how would you change it?
Speaker 2 (27:16):
Well, like I said, I mean I've tried more recently to
with every conversationfocusing more on the person
instead of on me.
So anytime I talk to somebodyrecently, I try to turn the
conversation completely towardsthem so they can see that I care
about them and I'm interestedin them and who they are and
(27:37):
about their life.
But I think the answer wouldjust be, the next time someone
asks me about my faith, to givethem what I see as the correct
answer instead of just sayingyes, what do you think the
correct answer is?
I think the correct answer isdefinitely yes, like you should.
If you're a Christian, youshould own up to it.
Like, don't lie.
(27:57):
But I think the correct answeris to say yes and ask them can I
tell you why?
Or maybe ask them themselves,like, are you a Christian?
And if they say no, like do youmind if I ask you why not?
Or something like that.
Speaker 1 (28:11):
Yeah, I think one of the things that Chuck talked
about again is just that courage, and I think once you get past
the courage to do it, then it'skind of the conviction to do it.
And I think one of the thingsthat you need to figure out is
and I think your impulse iscorrect, you got to care about
(28:33):
other people first.
And I think it's perfectlylegitimate to say look, I am a
Christian.
If you ever want to talk aboutthat, I am all for it, and leave
that door open.
Speaker 2 (28:45):
I used to feel really guilty that I would have, like
I'd have friends at work thatI'd known for a year or
something, like when I worked atMcDonald's, and I never talked
to Jesus about them.
But then I started to think tomyself, like, well, am I even
showing that I love them in theconversation?
Am I even talking to them as ifI care about them?
And it's like if I can't evenhave a conversation with them
(29:08):
and show to them that I lovethem, I don't think it really
matters how much I bring upJesus in the conversation,
because they're going to beturned off by the fact that,
like, I just seem like I don'tcare, or I just seem like I'm
just trying to get some numbersup.
You know in heaven, I'm justtrying to raise the baptism
rates or something, it's like.
I think I think the main, thefirst goal, like you said, or
(29:32):
like we just talked aboutearlier, like, is love others,
love your neighbor as yourselfand then love God with all your
heart, soul and strength.
I think the first goal shouldbe let me show this person I
love them and then, if they ask,or later down the line, I can
bring up you know where thislove is coming from and tell you
about Jesus, oh yeah, I thinksomething else that I would just
recommend is start giving Godcredit for things that he
deserves credit for.
(29:52):
Yeah, yes, I've tried doing that, yeah.
Speaker 1 (29:53):
Yeah, and I think that's a great way to, because I
think it's easy for us to havean inflated sense of the self
because we believe we are in somuch control of what we do.
And we're just not, we're justnot, we're just not.
Speaker 2 (30:13):
Something I've tried to focus on recently is I always
hear people say you're not theone doing the converting, it's
the Holy Spirit doing theconverting.
You're just the one talking.
And that's never how I used tothink.
Every time I would ever have aconversation about Christianity
with somebody, I would always bethinking to myself okay, how
can I break apart this person'sworldview and explain to them
why they're wrong, so I can showthem why my view of God is
(30:36):
correct, or something.
But really, then I startedthinking I'm focusing way too
much on how can I convince thisperson to believe in Christ?
How can I change this person'sheart?
And it's like I can't do that.
All I can do is tell them aboutit, and then it's up to God to
do his work, now that the seed'sbeen planted.
Speaker 1 (30:56):
Yeah, that's right.
I think something else that youneed to.
I think it's a misnomer.
Do you know what misnomer means?
Not really Okay.
What it means is callingsomething by the wrong name.
Speaker 2 (31:08):
Oh, okay, oh, I didn't know what that means,
yeah, so a misnomer.
Speaker 1 (31:11):
I think it's a misnomer or a mistake to think
that there's only one personthat converts somebody.
The fact is, you may or may notconduct a Bible study, but you
were the one who showed initialinterest, mm-hmm, you were the
one that basically introducedthem to Christian activity or
(31:34):
Christian actions.
I think there's a lot to besaid for that, and I think one
of the things that I kind ofworry about on the one hand but
I don't worry about a lot isthat when you are basically
trying to raise a Christian,it's not just one person that
(31:58):
does even most of the work.
There are so many people justat the church where you are
Names that you could rattle offjust as easily as I could that
have all had something to dowith how you became a Christian
or how you grew up as aChristian, and that is pretty
cool.
But it's not like I could havebeen all of those things to you.
(32:19):
I don't, I can't.
So Christianity is a communityproject.
Yes, yeah.
So I think that's somethingthat's important.
Okay, so you have basicallygrappled with the idea of who
God is.
You have grappled with the ideathat God just does not want to
conform to what you want him tobe.
You're just going to have tobasically come to him on his
(32:41):
terms, not yours, and basicallyyou've been grappling with the
idea of how do you evangelize,how do you tell other people
about him?
What else have you come tolearn about God or Christianity?
Speaker 2 (32:52):
Another problem I've had is I guess you call it lack
of supernatural why don't wehave miracles?
Why haven't I seen one?
I grew up in a Christian,basically a primarily Christian
society, my entire life.
(33:12):
I'm 21 now and I've never seena miracle.
Neither have I, or at leastI've never seen what I would
consider to be a miracle.
I ran this thought experimentthe other day of like maybe
there's things that are miraclesthat I just don't know, but
that's not the way we describeit in the Bible, it's something
supernatural.
So if I see something and Ithink to myself, well that could
have happened, then it'sprobably not a miracle, that's a
(33:35):
problem I struggle with.
It's like why have I never seena miracle and I talked to you
about this the other day why didMoses get to see the Red Sea
part?
Or why did Thomas get to seethe resurrected Jesus and
actually touch his?
Well, I guess in the gospelthey never tell us that he
touched his side.
But you know, you get my pointLike why don't I get to see
these kind of things?
And that's been a problem I'vehad.
Speaker 1 (33:55):
Well, one of the number one.
Moses saw the Red Sea part.
He didn't see the Jordan Riverpart.
Speaker 2 (34:04):
Did I say Jordan?
Speaker 1 (34:05):
You didn't say Jordan , and that's what you needed to
me Because it's and it's kind ofJordan and that's what you
needed to me because it's andit's it's kind of the Caleb, I
mean, joshua does the same thingwith with the Jordan river as,
and the Georgia river parts,which is far less impressive
because it's much smaller, yeah,but, but the Moses did see the
red sea part and the I think oneof the things that we've talked
(34:28):
a little bit about this.
I am curious about howconvincing the miracles truly
were.
Speaker 2 (34:37):
Yeah, you were talking with me about that the
other day.
Speaker 1 (34:40):
Because the people who saw them and participated in
them were almost neverconvinced.
Right Pharaoh did not changehis mind about who God was After
seeing 10 plagues.
Yes, after going through 10plagues, after experiencing a
lot of wrath from God, he didnot convert.
(35:01):
It did not change his mind.
Well, it changed his mindenough to say get out of here,
you guys are a pain in the rearend.
Speaker 2 (35:08):
Well, I guess, now that I think about it, I guess
my more point is like well,since I'm already a believer,
why can't I see some miracles?
You know what I mean?
I think that's more what it is.
I think it's more of like awell, you know, pharaoh didn't
even believe in God and he gotto see the plagues.
And the Egyptians didn't evenbelieve in God and they got to
see the Red Sea part.
So, god, I believe in you.
(35:30):
Why can't you show me some coolthings?
You know It'll help me not todoubt, right Like It'll help me
not to doubt right Like I cannot that it would help me
completely, but at least I knowyou exist.
Like if I walk down to the lakedown here and I saw it split,
you know, if someone asked me atwork, like does God exist?
I'd be like I bet you he does.
Like I saw the water part, but Ithink that's more my problem,
(35:52):
which is, I guess, more again aselfish thing of like you know,
I believe in you, god.
Why don't I get to see somecool things?
Speaker 1 (35:57):
Yeah, Well, and again go back to the New Testament,
where we've got miracles comingback.
The miracles are the exception,they're not the rule.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And you know, for the vasthistory of mankind we didn't see
miracles.
And again, just talk about themiracles of Jesus.
They didn't convince thePharisees of.
Speaker 2 (36:19):
Jesus.
Speaker 1 (36:20):
They didn't convince the Pharisees yeah, they didn't
convince the Sadducees yeah, forsome people, I think the
miracles of Jesus were basicallythe circus coming to town.
Yeah, this guy had no idea howhe can cure people of their
illnesses, but he sure does.
Do you know anybody sick?
And that was where they leftthe miracles, that this was just
a sideshow to get people healed.
(36:48):
And that is sad, because theydid not recognize that the
purpose of the miracles was toconfirm the teachings that he
was giving them and also confirmthat he had the power of God, I
think maybe I just strugglewith this, but I think I also
have an idea of what I wouldlike a miracle to be.
Speaker 2 (37:04):
You know, like I never.
I never saw Jesus fly aroundlike Superman, or I never saw
him.
I never.
I don't read of him likepicking up a bus or something,
yeah, and I wonder if that's howa lot of people viewed him back
then.
It's like like you said, likeyeah, he could heal, but like we
have doctors, doctors can heal.
And when he says I'm from God,people are like, well, why don't
you ride into the air in afiery chariot, like that one guy
(37:24):
did?
But it's like they maybe I betyou they were expecting
something and when they didn'tget it, they were like nah
there's just no way, so theyjust move on.
Speaker 1 (37:36):
The didn't do anything with them Right.
I think that you would probablyhave the same kind of reaction
and I don't know that for surebut I do think that even if you
saw one, I'm not sure how muchit would actually change your
faith, which is, on one hand,sad, on one hand sad Because,
(38:05):
again, I think that the miraclesthemselves were the proofs of
who God was, and almosteverybody missed it.
And I think that's I mean, youeven think about God, who you
think about Jesus, who had toturn to his apostles and say all
right, guys, you've seen meactually feed 5,000 people and
you're worried about what we'regoing to feed them now.
Yeah, you know I can do thisright.
(38:25):
Yeah, you know I can do this.
No, we didn't even okay.
Or God, the storm is about totake us out.
Why aren't you worried?
You see me like change thingsright.
You see me like raise peoplefrom the dead.
Speaker 2 (38:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (38:42):
And you're worried that a storm is going to make us
perish.
Yeah, and I think that's one ofthe things that I understand
your problem.
But I think you also recognizeyour problem, which is now
you're trying to get God to dowhat you want him to do.
Yeah, and he's just not goingto do that for you.
(39:03):
Yeah, and you're going to haveto be okay with that.
Speaker 2 (39:06):
Yeah, you see what I'm saying yeah, okay, what else
has changed.
Speaker 1 (39:12):
What other kind of questions do you have?
What kind of doubts do you have?
Speaker 2 (39:18):
I'm trying to think the evil and suffering one is
always there.
Speaker 1 (39:23):
I've been willing to.
Speaker 2 (39:28):
I usually can work that one out myself, but that
one is kind of a big deal.
Why do so many people suffer,and seemingly innocent people?
Let's just use Hurricane Miltonas an example.
Why did so many people suffer,and seemingly innocent people?
Let's just use Hurricane Miltonas an example.
Why did so many people losetheir lives and seemingly?
I would guess I would call theminnocent people, and I'm
willing to bet some of them werechildren, it's like.
(39:49):
Why did they lose their lives?
Or there's children in thirdworld countries that are dying
to diseases.
Speaker 1 (39:55):
Why doesn't?
Speaker 2 (39:56):
God, just stop the disease.
Speaker 1 (39:58):
Right, right.
Do you have an answer for that?
Speaker 2 (40:01):
I heard one guy say that he God's primary purpose is
to get people to choose himfreely, and if he was to
intervene, even in the smallestdegree, it could lead to people
choosing him out of like safetyfrom harm and not choosing him
for the right reason, which issomething that made sense to me.
(40:22):
I heard someone else say thatGod created the natural world.
But natural things happen andit's not God's control.
That one doesn't work well forme, just because I don't know he
(40:42):
created it that way, so whycan't he stop it?
I don't know.
I completely understandman-made suffering.
I don't blame God for murder,because that just seems kind of
dumb.
It wasn't God who did themurder, it was this guy who did
the murder, free will.
But I have a hard time notblaming God for kids dying of
(41:06):
diseases in Africa or kids dyingfrom a hurricane.
It's like, well, we didn't haveany control over that and we
can't stop that.
So why did you just let thesepeople die, do?
Speaker 1 (41:15):
you have an answer for that?
I don't think so.
These people die, yeah, do youhave an answer for that?
I don't think so Do you thinkthat?
Means that there's not a God?
No, no, it doesn't.
Speaker 2 (41:31):
Does it mean that God's not good?
See, I don't know, because mythought process is that goodness
is God.
Speaker 1 (41:41):
I do too.
Speaker 2 (41:42):
I agree with that.
Whatever God does is good bydefinition, but it's hard to
tell somebody that well, it wasa good thing If God is directly
controlling the hurricane, whichI don't necessarily know if
that's true, but if he is, it'shard to tell somebody.
Well, it's a good thing thatyour child died, because God did
it.
(42:02):
And that makes it good.
Speaker 1 (42:04):
Was it good that Job lost everything it was in the
long run Like for him.
Speaker 2 (42:12):
Was it good in the moment?
No, but it wasn't God doing it,it was.
Speaker 1 (42:18):
Satan, I guess.
Yeah, I think one of the thingsyou're grappling with is we
live in a place that is broken.
We live in a place that is lessthan perfect, and if you want
to make it perfect, what happensto us?
If you want to live in a placethat is perfect, what happens to
(42:40):
us?
Oh, we got to go, yeah.
Speaker 2 (42:44):
Yeah, why?
Because we're not perfect.
Speaker 1 (42:48):
That's right.
So we live in an imperfectworld until we're redeemed into
a perfect world.
Speaker 2 (42:56):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (42:57):
Does that make sense?
Do you see that we're redeemedinto a perfect world?
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (42:58):
Does that make sense?
Yeah, do you see that?
That reminds me of John Lennox.
He was a theist mathematicianand he said that human beings
right now are trying to createperfect beings in perfect
environments.
We've done it.
It's called computers and it'scalled robotics, but those
people don't actually doanything Like robots, don't do
(43:20):
anything moral.
They've done it.
It's called computers and it'scalled robotics, but those
people don't actually doanything.
Robots don't do anything moral.
They're not good.
They may do exactly what youtold them to do every single
time, but they're not doing itof their own volition.
And if you create anenvironment where it works
exactly the way you told it to,it's just happening and there's
nothing bad.
There's nothing good, there'snothing bad, there's no moral
(43:41):
value at all, because it's justrobots.
Speaker 1 (43:46):
There are a lot of people that I know that I think
a lot of that are worried aboutartificial intelligence.
The thing about artificialintelligence is it's not getting
its intelligence from anythingother than other people.
As good as they are atpredicting the next word in the
large language models, it canjust as easily be wrong as it
(44:08):
can be right, and it still takessomebody with the ability to
think well to figure out if theartificial intelligence is
actually authentic intelligenceor if it's artificial.
And I think the better that itgets at giving us the right
(44:29):
answers, the factual answers,the verifiable answers, the
better it is, the more useful itis.
Does that replace us?
No, I don't ever see thatartificial intelligence will
replace us because and you'vekind of already made this
argument computers are not moral.
Speaker 2 (44:50):
Yeah, computers do not have a soul, and I mean this
wasn't going to be a computerdiscussion, but we still,
science still does notunderstand where the if there's
no God and if everything is justnatural.
They don't understand where thecreative mechanism came from in
human beings.
So an AI could not actuallycreate something.
(45:12):
It could just produce somethingusing blueprints that's already
been given and, as someone whoworks with computers, that's how
AIs create.
That's how AI writes programs.
They're told logic and they'retold how the syntax works and
they just create it using that.
But they can't create somethingnew because they don't have
that in their database.
They can only create somethingthat they've already been given
(45:34):
that's exactly right.
Speaker 1 (45:38):
What would you tell yourself like 10 years ago?
Because, you well, maybe noteven 10 years ago.
When were you baptized, youwere 16.
16?
, yeah, five years ago.
So five years ago, what wouldyou tell yourself five years ago
?
What's changed?
Hmm?
Speaker 2 (46:00):
I think, I don't know , I wish I would have taken it.
Okay, so this is a hard onebecause I wish I would have.
If I could go back, I wouldtell myself to take it more
seriously when I was baptized,but at the same time, I don't
like telling people that theyhave to be seriously committed
(46:22):
before they get baptized,because I think it creates this
fear of like, well, I'm not goodenough to be baptized yet.
And I don't want people to feelthat way, because I don't think
that's correct.
Like I think the reason you getI mean everyone uses the
metaphor of, like you don't getin the shower when you're clean,
you get in the shower whenyou're clean.
You get in the shower whenyou're dirty.
So you don't get baptizedbecause you're sinless.
The reason you get baptized isbecause you are sinful.
(46:47):
But I think one thing I wouldtell my younger self is to
understand the decision you'remaking and try to take it more
seriously.
If you actually believe it,take it more seriously.
And I don't know how much Iactually believed it, but maybe
I would just try to tell himexactly what I just talked to
you about, like, give him moreevidence to try to convince him
(47:07):
to really believe it.
But I wish I would have takenit more seriously when I was 16,
because I think I got baptizedand for five years I just didn't
care.
I still lived the life I didbefore.
I just got baptized as a safetyprecaution.
If Christianity's right and Idie tomorrow, then at least I'll
be baptized and I'll have abetter chance of going to heaven
.
I think that's what my brainwas telling me.
I wish I would have taken itmore seriously.
(47:30):
But again, like I said, I'mkind of going in circles here.
I wouldn't tell myself toreconsider the baptism, I would
just kind of urge myself to takeit more seriously.
Speaker 1 (47:45):
Did you have enough experience to take it more
seriously?
Speaker 2 (47:51):
I think I had enough to do something I think I could
have been doing.
I mean, obviously you couldalways be doing better, you
could always be doing more good,but I think I could have been
doing a lot more good than I wasat the time.
I don't think at the time thatI was using my abilities and my
experience to the fullest, so Ithink I could have.
(48:13):
There's a lot more reasonablegood that I could have been
doing, not just hypothetical ohI could have done this, but I
think there's a lot morereasonable good that I could
have, that I could have beendoing, not just like
hypothetical, oh I could havedone this, but like I think
there's a lot that I could havedone that I just chose not to
because I didn't care.
But I think that's what I wouldurge someone like me now, like a
very, a younger person, like,if, if you believe this, if
you're baptized and if youbelieve this, well then you
(48:34):
should try to find out if youbelieve it first.
But if you believe this, findwhat you could do.
Just find something you can do.
Did you believe it at thatpoint?
I don't know, I don't know.
I believed in a God.
I did If belief just meansintellectual acceptance, like I
thought there was a God and thatwas my thought, that was my
(48:58):
statement was I think God exists, but I didn't believe it in the
acting sense.
Speaker 1 (49:05):
It wasn't enough to compel me to do anything, do you
?
Think it's reasonable to growinto a faith.
Speaker 2 (49:11):
Yeah, yeah, but at the same time.
Speaker 1 (49:18):
I Could have done more.
Speaker 2 (49:19):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, but I don't know how to put this.
I think it's definitelyreasonable to grow into a faith,
but if you're young and you getbaptized and you just get
baptized out of peer pressure Idon't think that changes the
fact that you got baptized andnow you still just don't care
and you're just doing what youwanted to before.
(49:41):
Now, yeah, like I think there'sa growth there and part of it
is growth, but did that makesense?
Speaker 1 (49:51):
It does but I think one of the things that you can't
see, but I do is that youusually appreciate things more
after they're gone.
Yeah, yeah, you realize, atthis point you're 21.
Mm-hmm, 21 years you have spentbasically with your mom and I.
With an exception of the firstfew years, mm-hmm, you have
(50:19):
spent the majority of time thatyou will ever spend with us.
That, from here on out, youwill spend far less time with us
do you recognize that?
yeah, and I don't think you'llrecognize what you lost until
it's actually gone.
(50:39):
That said, the relationshipstarts before you understand it.
Speaker 2 (50:49):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (50:49):
Before you appreciate what it is, after things change
, after you begin to realizethat, no, I really am a
Christian.
No, I really do have problems.
Yes, god really can fix things.
Because I think, as you begin,you have real reservations about
(51:12):
all of those things.
But it's the beginning of arelationship but it's the
beginning of a relationship.
Speaker 2 (51:19):
I guess the reason I have this thought process is,
like I'm always taught that theonly way you can lose salvation
is if you choose to turn awayfrom God, if you choose to no
longer be a child of God.
But I'm also taught that we'renot once saved, always saved.
Once you're baptized, you canchoose to go away.
(51:40):
But my thing is, I got baptizedwhen I was 16, but then for the
next five years I really onlywent to church.
I guess maybe for the nextthree, once I got to college, I
started to take it moreseriously.
But for the rest of high schoolso 16, maybe 18 or 19, like I
(52:00):
only went to church becausey'all did.
And even when I got my own caror not my car, but we didn't
even got my driver's licenseLike I still only went to church
because you guys were going,that's right, and I was just
afraid of being judged by youguys for staying home, okay, and
I didn't read my Bible ever.
I didn't really.
I only prayed before meals,because that's what I've been
taught to do.
But it's like the reason Ithink this way is like, well, if
(52:24):
baptism is part of salvation,then for those next three years?
Did I just completely lose itbecause I turned away and that
doesn't affect me now becauseI've come back but I fear for
other kids like they're 16, 17,that have been baptized and are
not doing anything with it.
Are they no longer savedbecause they're choosing not to
do anything?
(52:44):
Does that make sense?
Speaker 1 (52:46):
It does.
But one of the things that Iwould say is I think they need
to have an awakening about whatthat relationship means, and my
argument would be to you aboutthem Are they truly in a
relationship with God or arethey not?
And I think one of the thingsthat happens and it's one of the
(53:08):
things that we talk about, whenwe have to disfellowship from
somebody in church, in otherwords, we have to get, basically
we take them off the roll, butthe reason we do is because they
haven't been showing up tochurch, and at that point, it's
not so much that we'redisfellowshipping ourselves from
them.
They've alreadydisfellowshipped themselves from
(53:29):
us, and so we're kind of, insome ways, just recognizing a
reality that's already there.
Speaker 2 (53:35):
Right, just saying okay, you don't want to be here,
that's fine.
Speaker 1 (53:38):
Yeah, well, that's already there, right, just
saying, okay, you don't want tobe here, that's fine.
Yeah, well, it's not fine.
But the thing about that is, Ithink, when you think about your
relationship with God, is itauthentic?
Is it yours?
And I think it's perfectlyreasonable for your mom and I to
take you guys to church?
Yeah, but at some point.
(53:59):
What you're going through rightnow is you overcoming your
upbringing.
Do you see what I'm saying?
Yeah, you're starting to forgea relationship with God.
That's yours, not your mother'sand mine, and I think that's
reasonable.
I think that happens to a lotof people.
I hope you do the same thingfor your kids reasonable, I
think that happens to a lot ofpeople.
(54:20):
I hope you do the same thingfor your kids.
I hope you basically give themthe germ and the seeds and just
start thinking about who God isand start asking the right
questions.
But you're figuring this outyourself.
You can't answer that for yourkids.
You can't answer because that'stheir relationship.
It's not yours.
See what I'm saying.
(54:41):
Okay, what else do we need totalk about?
I don't know I don't know either.
All right, I had all thepodcasts with be good and do
good.
What's good about establishingyour own faith?
Speaker 2 (54:59):
I think it makes you a.
It makes you you grow closer toGod, which I think just makes
you do more good.
Does that make sense.
Speaker 1 (55:16):
That does.
That does.
In other words, what's goodabout finding your own or
creating your own faith?
It's good.
Okay, I can handle that.
Jake, I'm very proud of you.
Thank you.
I'm glad you're turning into aChristian.
Thank you.
Yes, as you might be able tofigure out, I am proud of my son
(55:41):
, but I'm proud of all four ofmy children Emma, jake, kent and
Abby.
I think they've all turned intofine young men and women.
That said, it's been anexciting time to be a father
watching their Christian walkand how they have developed
their own relationships with God.
For the record, I'm excited totalk to anybody in my family,
(56:05):
but Jake is one of the few thatis willing to get behind the
microphone and talk about hisfaith.
If you're interested, Jake hasstarted his own YouTube channel
where he talks about why hebelieves in God and how he came
to the conclusions he has aboutGod.
If you're interested in findingout about that, I'll put his
information in the show notes.
So until next time, let's begood and do good.
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