November 3, 2024 • 49 mins
Have you ever struggled with the weight of unforgiveness, feeling trapped by past hurts or wondering if it's possible to truly let go? In this episode, Kenny Embry and Jacob Hudgins explore the essence of forgiveness from both a personal and spiritual perspective. They delve into how this act can not only free us from the chains of bitterness but also align us closer to the divine model of love and reconciliation exemplified by Jesus. Join us to uncover how forgiveness can transform our lives, our relationships, and our very understanding of faith.
7 Key Takeaways:
- Forgiveness as Release: Forgiveness involves releasing the debt of an offense, mirroring God's forgiveness towards us.
- Personal vs. Religious Context: While personal forgiveness might seem straightforward, its depth matches the religious context, emphasizing the release from consequences rather than merely forgetting.
- Forgiveness Strengthens: Contrary to making one appear weak, forgiveness is a source of strength, following the model set by Jesus.
- The Cost of Forgiveness: True forgiveness often comes at a personal cost, reflecting the sacrifices Jesus made, challenging us to forgive even when it's difficult.
- The Process of Forgiveness: Forgiveness can be a long process, not an immediate action, involving growth, healing, and a change in perspective.
- Forgiveness and Relationships: While we are called to forgive, this doesn't always mean resuming the same relationship dynamics, especially if they are harmful.
- Forgiveness as a Reflection of God: Forgiveness teaches us about God's desire for relationship, highlighting His grace and our call to extend that grace to others.
10 Quotes:
- "Forgiveness is where the debt is released and we're no longer on the hook for what we've done." - Jacob Hudgins
- "Forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors." - Referencing Jesus in the Lord's Prayer
- "Forgiveness is a worthwhile priority, even if it's personally taxing." - Jacob Hudgins
- "There is strength in seeming weakness." - Jacob Hudgins on Jesus' teachings
- "You can't be greedy if your hands are always open. You can't be bitter if you're always forgiving." - Jacob Hudgins
- "Why can't you be defrauded? Why can't you get the wrong end of the stick?" - Jacob Hudgins on Paul's teachings
- "Forgiveness can be a process and a process of growth and healing." - Jacob Hudgins
- "You can’t just store up every wrong that's ever gone wrong in your life." - Jacob Hudgins on the effects of unforgiveness
- "If we want to be Christians, we can't not forgive." - Jacob Hudgins
- "Jesus’ life resonates because there is far more strength in restraint, care, and compassion." - Jacob Hudgins
Three Applications:
- Self-Reflection:
- Take time to reflect on instances where you've held onto grudges. Consider how letting go of these might benefit your mental health and spiritual growth.
- Community Building:
- In church or community settings, foster an environment where forgiveness is taught not just as a principle but as a lived experience. Encourage openness about struggles with forgiveness to normalize this challenging but necessary process.
- Daily Practice:
- Implement a daily practice of forgiveness in personal interactions. This could mean resolving to not carry over arguments or misunderstandings from one day to the next, or consciously choosing to understand rather than judge others' actions.
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
In this episode of Balancing the Christian Life, we
talk about the importance offorgiveness.
Welcome to Balancing theChristian Life.
I'm Dr Kenny Embry.
Join me as we discover how tobe better Christians and people
in the digital age.
Sin is a big problem thatrequires a big solution.
(00:21):
Yeah, we sin a lot so much sothat it doesn't seem like a big
deal, except it is a big deal.
So what's the solution to thisbig deal?
Forgiveness.
I think we probably think offorgiveness as just the other
half of this puzzle.
It's the jelly in a PB&J.
You just can't talk about sinwithout talking about
(00:44):
forgiveness.
But that is precisely what Iwanted to do.
Last time, we talked about theproblem of sin with my friend
Keith Stonehart, and this time Iwanted to talk about the more
optimistic side of this coinforgiveness.
To talk about this idea, Ibrought in another old friend,
Jacob Hudgens.
He's an evangelist in CollegeStation, Texas, and an author of
(01:08):
several books, including adevotional about grace and
another one about what he callsthe school of Christ.
Specifically, I wanted to seewhat the importance of
forgiveness truly is, and we dothat.
I want you to watch out for afew things, including how Jesus
showed us what true forgivenessshould look like.
(01:28):
We'll also look at whatforgiveness costs, and not just
Jesus.
Think about what realforgiveness costs you.
We'll also see how personal,spiritual forgiveness changes
things.
On a few practical pieces ofadvice when it comes to
forgiveness.
Yeah, that's a lot about asimple but profound idea.
(01:52):
So, Jacob, let's start here.
What is forgiveness?
Speaker 2 (01:58):
Well, forgiveness is where an offense has been
committed and there is aconsequence of the offense, and
forgiveness is where the debt isreleased and we're no longer on
the hook for what we've done.
So it has dimensions that haveto do with how God views our sin
and his willingness to releaseus from those debts, and it also
(02:22):
has dimensions that have to dowith us and other people.
Jesus connects those when hesays forgive us our debts as we
forgive our debtors in theLord's prayer.
So there's a connection betweenGod overlooking letting go of
our sins and us doing the samefor others.
Speaker 1 (02:41):
Well, you entered into almost churchy language
immediately.
Um, we, we understood if I weretelling my kids to you guys
need to get it, get over this,you guys need to forgive
yourself, each other and andjust stop being stupid.
Uh, they would understand that.
(03:04):
But is this different in apersonal context versus
religious context?
Speaker 2 (03:15):
so you're right about that.
But I think that perhaps theone difference is that very
often our forgiveness issues aremuch more about personal
(03:41):
offenses and things that are notnecessarily evil in themselves
but are hurtful, whereas thingsthat have to do with God are
evil, and when we sin againstGod, it's not just that we hurt
his feelings, it's that we'vedone something that's evil.
But I do think there is astrong connection in the idea of
how do we manage having arelationship going forward with
(04:03):
people who have hurt us or donewrong, and in that sense we have
God as a model, god as anexample of not giving up on
people just because they're notdoing what they should, and God
not thinking people areirredeemable, which I think.
When we have experience withother people, we start to feel
(04:25):
that way, especially certainpeople.
We just feel like this willnever work.
I'm done with this, and some ofwhat God does shows us he looks
at people differently, but alot of what Jesus teaches says
that just can't be the wayChristians think.
Speaker 1 (04:41):
I completely agree with you on that.
I think I completely agree withyou on that.
I think, especially when westarted thinking about the
person of Jesus and who Jesus isand what he did.
I mean, I suspect that yourprayer life might be a little
bit like mine, where it's thetagline for every prayer I've
ever said which is forgive us ofour sins or forgive me of my
(05:03):
sins, for every prayer I've eversaid which is forgive us of our
sins or forgive me of my sins,and it kind of becomes that
thing that I add in there,because I know that's what makes
it a real prayer and I don'treally think about what I'm
asking for.
And again, when I was talking toKeith Stonehart about sin, we
(05:24):
so quickly want to rush to the,the, the solution, which is
forgiveness.
But, as you were talking aboutthere, jesus is the model of
forgiveness.
In what ways is he that model?
I mean, he would tell, uh, hewould tell, uh, he would tell
Peter that, that, that, that weshould forgive one another 70
(05:46):
times 7.
So I guess that puts us up to a490.
And I guess, if we need to,well, we both know, I mean,
that's figurative language.
So what does Jesus teach usabout forgiveness?
Speaker 2 (06:01):
So Jesus has a completely different uh
perspective.
I think everybody you read thegospels and everybody around him
sees it uh and even today, likewe're all, even as a society,
that is is really moving awayfrom a biblical foundation.
We're all fascinated by jesus.
We can tell there's somethingunique about him and I think
(06:22):
forgiveness is a huge part ofwhat he brings.
That's unique and it's awillingness to say I know you're
not.
They feel like I can come tothis man and don't know about
the Pharisees, I don't knowabout the religious leaders, but
(06:50):
I can come to Jesus and I'm atax collector, I'm a prostitute
and I can find something in himthat nobody else is giving,
which is the acceptance of I'mwilling to love you in spite of
the fact that you've sinned.
So that I think Jesus teachesus that there's more to people
(07:11):
than their sins, and we can'tjust throw people out because
they have not been perfect, evenif they've given themselves
over to a lifestyle of sin, likesome of those people had.
He is willing to accept andreconsider, even sacrifice his
own reputation for those people,even sometimes get hurt.
(07:31):
Judas betrays him.
He is even willing to forgivethose who are killing him while
they do it.
So Jesus is, like, fullycommitted to this way of living.
He is going to forgive peopleeven if it hurts him, even if he
has to do it over and overagain.
Think about how many times thedisciples did dumb and hurtful
(07:54):
stuff to him that probably wouldhave earned a dismissal from
one of us.
But he's very patient with them, and so I think he teaches us
that forgiveness is a worthwhilepriority.
I think the fact that his lifestill resonates shows us that
like this is something that isageless, but it's also
personally taxing.
Like it costs you something.
(08:16):
It costs Jesus so much toforgive people.
It costs him his reputation, itcosts him physical suffering,
and yet you don't come out ofthat saying, well, he was dumb
to think that way.
Instead, you come out sayingthis may be so important that
it's worth all of that.
So I think we need both ofthose perspectives that it's
worthwhile, but it's also goingto hurt.
Speaker 1 (08:38):
You know, one of the stories that Keith and I started
talking about was the story ofHosea and I started talking
about was the story of Hosea,who was intentionally married to
a prostitute, and the ideathere being there's nothing that
Hosea did that warranted thekind of treatment he got from
(09:01):
Gomer, and in many ways, I feellike Hosea in some ways looks
like a very weak man because hehas a wife that he keeps on
coming back to, that keeps onabusing him and keeps on using
him, but ultimately, by the timeyou get to the end of the story
(09:25):
, he is a brokenhearted man.
But he's a very strong man andI think that's one of the
misperceptions that we can oftenhave with forgiveness.
Do you think forgiveness makesus stronger or weaker?
Speaker 2 (09:39):
Oh, absolutely stronger.
But I do think there is thatmisconception that still
persists that you're not holdingpeople to account, you're
letting people take advantage ofyou.
And I do think I want to beclear.
I do think that there aresituations where people who are
in an abusive relationship mightsay you know whativeness is not
(10:02):
really the issue there, and I'mnot saying even Jesus is
recommending you keep gettingabused.
But there is.
You read his words in Matthew 5about turning the other cheek
and loving your enemies, and Ithink a lot of people would see
that as weak.
You know, they would see astrong person as retaliating and
defending themselves.
(10:23):
But that's just part of Jesus'perspective.
He's going to say there'sstrength in the seeming weakness
and forgiveness.
Again, I keep coming back tothis Jesus' life resonates with
people because there is far morestrength in the restraint and
the care and compassion he hadthan there is in somebody who
(10:46):
would just come out and I don'tknow, do a Samson and just kind
of tear everybody apart.
Yeah, that's a form of strength, but Samson's also incredibly
weak.
And so I do think one of thethings we struggle with with
forgiveness is not really thatwe come across as weak, it's
that we feel our wrongs deservebetter justice than what
(11:12):
forgiveness would give us.
For some reason, when I'm hurt,it's worse than anybody else's
pain that's ever experiencedpain, and so that sense of
injustice especially when Ihaven't done anything to deserve
it, like you mentioned a minuteago with Jose and Gomer.
I don't deserve this treatment.
I've done the right thing,they've treated me poorly, and
(11:34):
so there's no way those two aregoing to meet and I'm going to
be okay with it.
It just seems so unfair and Ithink that creates a tremendous
level of emotional pushback forit.
Speaker 1 (11:47):
Can we take it for granted?
Is forgiveness one of thosethings that, as Christians, we
just sit back and you know,sending is my job, forgiveness
is God's job.
Let me do my job and I'll lethim do his.
Speaker 2 (12:00):
Yeah, well, we continue in sin.
That grace may abound.
It's something that I think itgoes back to what you said a
moment ago.
When we don't think sin is asserious as it is, then we don't
think forgiveness is as big adeal as it is.
Right to how we view otherpeople's sin, Because we look at
(12:24):
it as if God has got all themoney in the world and so him
forgiving a little debt from meis not a big deal, and when we
think of it that way, thensurely that's not going to be as
big a deal as when you hurt mebecause I don't have that much
to give.
So that is the exact opposite ofJesus' parable about how much
(12:46):
we've actually been forgivenversus how much we actually are
called on to forgive.
So I think it goes back to webecome glib about what our sin
really is, the rebellion itrepresents and the cost that it
took to let it go for God, andinstead we presume on that a
little bit and then we think itjust is way too much to ask for
(13:10):
us to let go of somebody else'ssmaller things.
Speaker 1 (13:15):
Well, you said that forgiveness is a big deal.
Make the case for me.
Steel man that argument.
Speaker 2 (13:29):
Why is forgiveness a big deal?
Well, the there's severaldimensions of the people holding
on to the hurts that have beendone to you and the bitterness
(13:50):
and anger that that causes inyou will destroy you.
It will ruin your life.
You just ask the question.
You go meet someone and they're80 years old and they're
crotchety and angry and you askthe question how do people get
to be crotchety and angry?
It's because they never learnedto forgive and they have kept
(14:13):
an account of every wrong that'sever happened to them.
So if you want the answer thatmodern man would appreciate it's
.
This is something that is foryour best life and your mental
health to learn to let things go.
You can't just store upeverything that's ever gone
wrong in your life, or else youwill become a person that you
and everyone else hates.
Speaker 1 (14:35):
Now, that's one answer, by the way let's give it
its due as well, because Ithink that is where a lot of
people get hung up.
They will, they will sit foryears and stew on on something
that some people will not evenremember, and and that's, that's
that will.
I mean you will lose.
You will lose, uh, precioustime, but but you will.
(14:59):
You will lose the ability to,to, to progress on to something,
and that is you won't say it,but let me say it that's stupid,
that is just supremely stupid,because what you're doing is you
are giving somebody elsecontrol over what you do.
You have given them your brainrent-free, and that is a
(15:23):
supremely stupid thing to do,because they can't.
You are giving them control ofyou.
Again, I apologize, and Irealize what you're saying right
now is that's not a spiritualthing, that's really more a
psychology thing.
But the psychology of that isabsolutely true that if you do
(15:43):
not, from a psychological pointof view, learn how to forgive,
you will make yourself miserable.
Does that make sense?
Speaker 2 (15:51):
Yes, oh, absolutely.
I think there is a biblicalcase there when Paul says let
all wrath and anger andbitterness be put away from you,
with all malice, and be kind toone another, tender, hard and
forgiving.
Like you, you look at all ofthose.
They're all representations ofhow anger will consume your life
and poison you if you don'tlearn to forgive.
(16:14):
Uh, but I do think that that uhperspective, where we we hold
onto things, not only do otherpeople control us, but we stay
stuck in a certain state wherewe're the victim and we forget
what we've done.
And it's not about I've neverhurt anybody and we say things
like I can never understand howanyone would do that, which is
(16:36):
really not using ourimaginations very well, if we
can't understand how otherpeople would do wrong things or
how we would, that wholementality is such a dead end,
spiritually speaking, thatforgiveness is just the clear
way out of it's sort of like umI heard this expression one time
you can't be greedy if yourhands are always open, you know
(16:59):
if you're, if you're alwaysgiving things away, you can't be
greedy.
And you can't be bitter ifyou're always forgiving.
It just won't work.
You can't do both.
And so there's a Bible solutionto a very serious anger,
depression problem that persistsin our culture and grievance
(17:19):
type stuff.
So that's one answer type stuff.
So that's one answer.
I would say.
Part of what forgiveness isimportant for doing is it helps
us grow deeper spiritually.
I've had some things that havegone on in my life where they
were long-term, big picturewounds that I just wrestle.
(17:42):
I mean I just wrestle with.
Can I forgive this person, canI get over this?
And I would pray Jesus modelprayer forgive us our debts as
we forgive our debtors.
And I would pray that dailybecause I think it's intended to
be a daily prayer and I wouldevery day.
It was like how am I doing onthis?
(18:04):
It's like poking the bruise.
You know how, how do I feeltoday and and ask for strength
to let go of that today.
Speaker 1 (18:11):
And.
Speaker 2 (18:11):
I'll tell you um time passes, the Lord heals and
works in our lives.
But but it was much harder thanI would have ever guessed just
from reading that verse.
It's a verse.
It just says forgive, butforgiveness can be a process and
a process of growth and healingand learning new perspectives
and trying to think differently.
(18:31):
And then when you are given thegift of being able to move
forward, you see the brillianceof it and I feel like I'm in a
different place than I wasstruggling with all of those
things.
So I am concerned a bit that wein our nation have exchanged
(18:54):
biblical thought for some reallyshallow thinking about topics
like this, where Paul would sayabout topics like this, where
Paul would say why can't you bedefrauded?
Why can't you get the wrong endof the stick?
What is it in you that is soimportant that you can't ever
suffer?
How can you serve a sufferingSavior and nothing bad ever
(19:17):
happens to you, or you whine andcomplain, and that to me.
I really do think that if Paulwere to march into some of our
churches, he would just chew usall out about that, like can you
guys not get along, get oversome of this stuff Really, like
Jesus died for you to forgiveyou, and you can't even let the
smallest things go.
(19:37):
So to me there is a depth there, depth there, and then I will
just say that that whole process, you know, you grow and you can
tell you are becoming more likeJesus, because when we're able
to let things go, we view peopledifferently and we begin to be
(19:57):
more open, the way he is.
We begin to say you know what,kenny?
I know we've had our problems,but I love you and we're
brothers and we're going to beokay.
Instead of it being, oh great,here comes Kenny again.
Do you hear what he said aboutme?
That one time, you know, and soour relationship strengthened,
our churches strengthened andwe're able to.
You know, other people look atus who are outside and begin to
(20:20):
say, hey, maybe, maybe that's aplace where I'll be received
instead of rejected, because youknow outside, and begin to say,
hey, maybe that's a place whereI'll be received instead of
rejected, because I have somethings that need to be forgiven.
You just keep expanding thecircle out.
We become more like Jesus andeverything is transformed.
I can keep going with thatanswer but I think you get my
(20:42):
drift.
Speaker 1 (20:42):
Well, if the benefits of forgiveness are so obvious
and you make them sound great Imean, this is just the best
thing since sliced bread, and Idon't eat bread Then why isn't
everybody doing it, hudgens?
Speaker 2 (20:53):
It's hard, it's hard, it's hard.
It's hard to just think back towhen you were a child and the
first few times you were hurtdeeply by something someone said
or did, and you think back tohow betrayed you felt, how
(21:19):
disorienting it was.
I'm not sure that we everreally acclimate to wounds like
that.
I suspect this is just mypersonal experience, but there
are some people I kind of expectto hurt me, or I kind of expect
to not care.
But when the people who Iexpect to do right by me don't,
(21:39):
when I've given my full heartedeffort and they spit on it, it's
a special kind of pain.
And so when I talk aboutforgiveness, I don't and and you
know I we've had situations inour family where you know
there's been adultery and, andyou know, long-term pain and
(22:01):
long-term betrayal.
These things are not easy.
It's not a you snap yourfingers and you're over it.
Nor is it like, hey, just readyour Bible and get over it.
It's a process.
It's painful and there's a partof you that, like we've said
before, it feels like they'regetting away with it if you let
(22:21):
it go.
You know that this personshould be defined by this
forever.
But I think that that wholeidea of transforming the heart
from just a wounded heart to aheart that's willing to go all
the way and accept and maybeeven rebuild a relationship with
someone who's hurt.
Like that.
It's just hard.
(22:42):
I don't think that the answeris any deeper than that.
It's extremely hard and I alsomentioned that.
Like for me it was a year'sprocess and just that's, just
that one situation.
So I don't think everybody's upfor that.
Like they're not saying, hey, Iwant to spend years trying to
get over something.
(23:03):
They don't see any need for it,I'll just be mad and stay mad
and, just you know, talk badabout them whenever I see them.
So, uh, I don't.
I want to be clear as much asI'm a proponent for forgiveness,
I don't, um, uh, criticizepeople for for being hurt and
for struggling.
(23:23):
How do you deal with your pain?
I understand, I understand thatfully, but I just think we have
to say but, but we serve aforgiving Savior and there has
to be that, but in there.
If there's not, I've got aproblem.
I'm not sure how Christians aredifferent from the world if
we're not going to listen toJesus about something that's so
near and dear to our hearts.
Speaker 1 (23:44):
I think God expects us to forgive, to really
understand his position better,that if it's so hard for us, why
do we think it's so much easierfor God?
That sin is sin, but, but Imean sin.
The problem of sin is, but Imean sin.
(24:05):
The problem of sin is the sameproblems that we have with
people who act like knuckleheadsaround us, which is it's hard
for us to get back into arelationship with somebody that
has already given us proof thatthey have and will treat us
poorly, that they have and willtreat us poorly, and that's if
(24:26):
you can learn how to do that,you're a good person, you're a
better person, you're a strongerperson, as we've already talked
about.
But I think I don't know and Idisagree with you with this, if
you want to, hudgens but I thinkhe calls on us to forgive so
that we can understand who he isand what he does.
(24:48):
Does that make sense to you?
Speaker 2 (24:50):
Yeah, absolutely.
And I actually think it canbuild a feeling of relationship
with God where, in a way I hateto say it this way, but it kind
of humanizes God.
I hate to say it like that,Cause you there's some things I
don't mean by that, but you knowwhat I mean Um, that makes God
relatable, because we feel thepain, Like when he gets
(25:11):
frustrated.
Especially there are times inthe old Testament where he says
you know, you guys know betterthan this.
And, uh, I I find myself sayingthe same thing to my children,
for one.
But, um, you know, saying thesame thing about somebody, maybe
in the church, like, hey, youknow better than this, why are
you acting this way?
(25:32):
And there's a special kind offrustration and hurt that comes
with that, and so it's like,yeah, I get it.
God, I'm right there with you.
I have felt that.
But the hard part is owningthat sometimes I make God feel
that way.
That's the hard part.
Speaker 1 (25:48):
Yeah, yeah.
And you said you don't want tohumanize God, and I guess what I
would say is I think God istrying to holy eyes us.
I mean, the thing about it isGod owns that and, to the extent
that we have to participate inthe same thing he does, it just
makes us more aware of themagnitude of what he has to do.
(26:10):
What he does well, not eventhat he has to do, I mean, he
has to only because of the moralcode that he does not violate.
He can let us rot Well, youknow that.
Um, he could let us rot well,you know that.
But let me ask you this, becauseI think one of the things that
(26:31):
you've already made an allusionto this it's it's one thing to
forgive somebody, but there aretimes when it doesn't make any
sense at all for you to get backinto a relationship with
somebody who, where it can bedangerous.
Can you speak to that?
Because I think one of thethings that is important for
(26:53):
Christians to understand isthere are some things that you
need to forgive.
You need to forgive, but thereare things that you need to
learn through the forgivenessprocess that go forward in a
relationship.
Do you see what I'm saying?
Speaker 2 (27:10):
Yeah, I would say, like I think of Jesus saying
don't give what's holy to thedogs, or cast your pearls before
swine lest they turn andtrample them and tear you to
pieces.
That idea of there are peoplewho they're dangerous, and I
(27:33):
think that we have to admit thatwithout saying I, you know, I'm
going to try to judge everybodyto see whether they're
dangerous, but there are timeswhere you, you learn that about
people from, uh, from being inrelationship with them, uh, so,
uh, the question then becomesyou know, do I forgive them?
And I think the answer is yes, Iforgive, like we've described,
um, but I think there's anotherstep there.
(27:54):
That's sort of the what are thepractical fallouts after I've
kind of let this go from my ownheart.
Um, you know, there are people,there are people who I'm not
going to have the samerelationship with because, not
because I'm still mad aboutsomething, but because I don't
trust them.
And there are people whosebehavior has proven, especially
(28:17):
over time, that they're a littlebit I don't like the word toxic
, but a little bit dangerous,and so I think that idea of
what's the ongoing fallout isnot the same as do I get to hold
onto my anger and live in mypain and frustration.
(28:37):
To me those are two separateissues and I think those get
conflated when we discussforgiveness.
So there are know there, thereare.
So, for example, you know youhave a marriage that that breaks
up over an affair and there canbe forgiveness, but there
doesn't necessarily have to beokay, but this to forgive this,
this couple has to stay together, um, that sort of thing.
(29:00):
Uh, and I would just say, youknow there are, like the one
that always comes up is the Idon't know why this always
happens.
I don't know, maybe it happenedtoo much in the past but the
treasurer at the church who'scaught stealing money, you know
you can forgive him, but do youput him back in charge of the
treasury?
You know, I guess it's beenhappening since Judas's day, by
(29:21):
the way, but that idea, do wekeep putting trust in a person?
It's like, well, there may be aprocess to get different.
I mean to reestablish trust.
Speaker 1 (29:36):
To me those are just different issues.
Yeah, me too.
I think I have been thinkingfor a long time now that one of
the highest callings that Godhas called us to is wisdom, that
there is the idea of wisdom andwhat it means to apply God's
law.
So the New Testament is notLeviticus, it's not Deuteronomy,
(30:01):
it's not a list of laws.
It's basically a modeling oflaws.
It's, it's, it's basically a, amodeling of a life, well-lived,
uh, and I think that's the.
There are definitely things thatwe were told to do and told not
to do.
For the most part, when you,when you think about the
relationship again, I guess oneof the things I come back to and
(30:23):
I've I've referenced thisseveral times is that paul and
barnabas over john mark and Idon't think that was I don't
necessarily think that was aforgiveness situation.
It might have been I I just weare given so few details about
that that entire uh, blow up,fight, whatever you want to call
(30:44):
it.
But I think one of the thingsthat happened makes a lot of
sense to me, because Barnabasand Paul wouldn't travel
together again over something,but both of them found ways to
be important in the kingdom.
Still, we hear a lot more aboutPaul, but it is impossible for
(31:09):
me to think that Barnabas wouldmake him stop, because we read
later on about how John Mark isone of the people that Paul
wants to see after a while.
I think one of the things that Ithink about that there are
times when Christians can justreach an impasse and we are both
(31:31):
better served by not workingtogether.
Do you see what I'm saying?
I'm not trying to ramble.
I promise Jacob.
Speaker 2 (31:40):
I think there are just times where we have
legitimate disagreements.
To me there's no wrong done inthe Paul Barnabas situation, not
like one of them wounded theother, and so to me it's not a
forgiveness issue.
But I do think we work closelytogether.
We're going to have somephilosophical differences and to
(32:03):
me I can really see it Likehere's Paul he's got the
personality where he says youknow, this work is too important
to have this guy desert usagain and you know we're doing
the work.
You want to come, you got to bein all in and you totally see
that in Paul's personality.
Here's Barnabas he's all aboutthe people.
He's like hey, he learned hislesson, give him another chance.
We got to be accepting and warmwith people and they just have a
(32:26):
difference of opinion, likethey just don't see it the same
way, and you can see that happenlike that.
That's totally a picture frommodern times, where any two
people just view the worlddifferently and make the
different decisions about acertain situation.
So so I just think, that what'shappening here is sometimes we
(32:48):
have to say let's keep doing thework and let's not be bitter
and angry at each other.
But you know, this may bebetter if we're not together.
And there are people like that,and I think it's important to
value each other's work in thekingdom in those situations and
not say, well, I don't like hisopinion about X or Y, so I'm
(33:12):
going to act like he's not evena believer, and I think I'm
impressed that you don't eversee that from either Paul or
Barnabas.
There's no aspersions cast inany way.
Speaker 1 (33:24):
Not that are recorded , that's for sure, but I think
one of the things that well, letme ask you about this, and
we've made reference to thispretty straightforwardly what
does forgiveness teach us aboutGod?
Speaker 2 (33:46):
I think the main thing is that God still wants
relationship and he wants it sobadly with us that he is willing
to find a way, even when theway is closed, and he's willing
(34:06):
to take the cost on himself.
But all of the things that fallunder that umbrella of what
Jesus did and how God becamejust, and the justifier all of
that to me is the subheading tothe main headline, which is God
wants a relationship so bad withyou that he will find a way to
put away your sin.
And when I say that about God,I again keep coming back to us,
(34:33):
because that becomes thequestion for us Do I want
relationships with my brothersand sisters, with my family
members, with my fellow man somuch that I would be willing to
put away sin and forgive?
And because to me that helps somuch to reframe it, as this is
about love and not about me,it's about do I care about
(34:58):
people?
And so God shows thistremendous level of care where
he says he could have justthrown the whole project away.
I mean, nobody's good enough,no one's righteous, not going to
happen, and yet he wants it badenough.
So I think that in almost everysituation, if we want it bad
(35:19):
enough.
We can maintain relationshipsdespite people sinning against
us and hurting us.
Speaker 1 (35:29):
Often in our congregations we know the guy
who's going to come forward atthe invitation song and things
like that.
Is there a difference betweenpersonally forgiving somebody
and then forgiving somebody as achurch?
Speaker 2 (35:49):
Well, I think, um, I think the church is the
compilation of a lot ofindividuals, um, but I I do
think I've I've noticed this intalking to people.
Um, people are afraid to talkto the church, and I think I
(36:10):
know why.
I think it has to do with sometraditional reactions that they
expect when something serioushas happened.
They expect people to react ina harsh and judgmental way.
I've not seen that in mylifetime, which I'm thankful for
.
I have seen, when someone has aserious sin to confess, that
(36:35):
the group welcomes them andembraces them.
But I think that, you know,those are the kinds of things
that take a long time to unwind,and the struggle with doing
things as a group is that anyone person can mouth off and
(36:56):
suddenly the whole church soundslike they're intolerant.
Uh, and I, I had that situationwhen I moved to a new church
and I had only been that churchfor a few months and someone
came and asked me if I do this,will somebody here say something
?
And I'm like, okay, so I'msupposed to tell you what 300
(37:17):
people might say that I don'teven know, you know, and so,
like that, that is different.
But I think, as a church, what'simportant is that we have
leaders who are leading byreceiving and welcoming.
I think it's important that wehave preaching that encourages
people to bring their issues andnot hide them, not just Bible
(37:40):
robots who always say and do theright thing.
We're actual people.
And then to say can we findways to keep these people in
front of us and include them aspart of the group?
Maybe that's you know, theyneed to be parts of worship, or
maybe that's we need to keepchecking on them, but it doesn't
need to be.
They did their penance and cameforward and now, you know, we
(38:04):
kind of stick them in the backroom or we don't talk about what
happened or something like that.
So to me there are some churchthings that are a little
different from the personal part.
But I am a little wary of usingthe church as if that process
of going forward and tellingeveryone in the church as a way
(38:25):
of adding a requirement wherethe church is controlling things
.
I'm aware of that.
It, to me, is very Catholic inthe sense that Catholicism has
the church usually standingbetween a person and God, and
that's not our job as a church.
They don't need our forgivenessto get God's forgiveness.
So there are some things aboutthat that may be a little uneasy
(38:47):
, but at the same time Iunderstand people wanting to let
others know I'm trying to doright again.
I need your help, and I thinkthat's definitely a positive.
Speaker 1 (38:58):
So let me just sum up here.
It sounds like forgiveness isthat thing that basically puts
two people who are at odds backinto a relationship.
That makes sense, that it'ssomething that we need to do.
We need to do it for ourselves,we need to do it for the others
.
It's also something that helpsus identify with God.
These are all things that areimportant, and God does it on a
(39:22):
regular basis and see if youagree with this.
And it's not his job.
It's his gift that this issomething that we don't deserve
and it's not something that he'sgoing to go in from nine to
five to make sure that our sinis forgiven, but it is the gift
that he gives us when we decideto have that kind of
(39:46):
relationship with him.
Does this all make sense to you?
Speaker 2 (39:50):
Yeah, absolutely.
I would add you don't haveChristianity without forgiveness
, right?
Jesus makes no sense withoutforgiveness.
Jesus makes no sense withoutforgiveness.
It is the signature teaching ofJesus' life, which means it's
the most important teaching ofthe most important man who's
(40:13):
ever lived.
And if we want to be Christiansand receive forgiveness from
God, we can't not forgive.
It just doesn't work.
And I am alarmed at times whenI see and I mean you can hear it
, because when you stumble onsomeone's bitterness, it's
(40:36):
abundantly clear that very oftenChristians can be Christians
for 50 or 60 years and sit inthe church pew and quote
Ephesians, and yet we don'tactually forgive the people
who've hurt us.
And I just think there's adisconnect there that we just
have to call out.
(40:56):
I don't want to be a Christianwho doesn't follow Jesus.
I want to be a Christian whodoes what Jesus?
did.
So I want to say I'm thankfulfor a God who's willing to
forgive in this way, and I amchallenged by what that means
for me, with my hurts andstruggles.
Speaker 1 (41:17):
Let me get you to go back and unpack just a little
bit more.
You say this is basicallyJesus's signature move, that
this is what Jesus was all about.
Let's face it Most people whoare looking for Jesus weren't
looking for forgiveness.
This was not what they neededthe Messiah to be.
They needed the Messiah to kickRome out.
(41:38):
Why do you say that this isJesus's main purpose?
Do?
Speaker 2 (41:46):
you say that this is, this is uh, jesus's uh main
purpose.
Well, I think there is uh forone.
He's here for forgiveness, toforgive others.
Um, you know he comes for thatpurpose, so that he can be God's
one.
He uses to bring forgiveness tothe people.
Um, but you can also see how he?
He, yeah, he is different.
(42:08):
It is not what they're expecting.
They do want him to come, kickthe Romans out, but think about
who he draws to himself.
It is not the people who don'tneed forgiveness, it's everybody
who does.
So you've got the, the Phariseeand the tax collector.
And the Pharisee is saying Ithank you that I'm not like
(42:30):
other men, I'm not like thescumbag tax collector.
And the tax collector says God,be merciful to me, a sinner who
comes to Jesus.
Are the people who needforgiveness and who doesn't come
are the people who thinkthey're fine.
Jesus talks to the blind manabout.
You know, these guys think thatthey see and so their sin
remains.
But if you know that you'reblind, then you can come to me
(42:51):
and receive sight.
So that idea becomes a way hein that uniquely God genius way.
It's like an off-speed pitch.
They're not expecting it, butit ends up separating the world
into the people who are willingto see God's mercy and the
people who are not, and then thepeople who are willing to
(43:12):
extend mercy to others and thepeople who are not.
So, um, I just see that as athread and the disciples pick up
on it.
They hear him pray and Jesuspoints it out you know, if you
want God to forgive you, youforgive others.
And Jesus points it out.
You know, if you want God toforgive you, you forgive others.
Tell the story of the man.
You know, the man who isforgiven a great debt and won't
forgive a small debt.
(43:32):
And Peter says how many timesdo I have to forgive?
Because Peter, by the way, isall up on it, he hears it.
Jesus says your brother sinsagainst you.
Go tell him his fault.
You've gained your brother.
And Peter says whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.
I have to forgive him.
How many times?
Speaker 1 (43:48):
Like seven, and Jesus blows his mind.
Speaker 2 (43:51):
So I just look at that.
It's a consistent teachingtheme, it's a consistent
character theme.
It's who he is.
People are drawn to him becauseof this.
You think about the womancaught in adultery and she comes
to him and he says I don'tcondemn you either.
You know, that whole idea ofsomething about him is uniquely
accepting of people even thoughthey're sinners, and then, of
(44:14):
course, him dying for the sinsof the world.
So I look at that and I saythat's unique and that's the
signature thing.
And when people talk aboutJesus it's just the thread that
goes through his whole life.
So I just want to calldisciples of Jesus to be more
like Jesus in that area, toappreciate our forgiveness and
(44:37):
then to extend it to otherpeople.
I just don't see any other wayto follow Jesus.
Speaker 1 (44:42):
Like I said last time time, I was talking to Keith
about the problem of sin, andthis is obviously the solution
to sin, the only, the only othersolution is if we just stopped
sending altogether and then weget started on that.
The reason I wanted this to bea separate episode is because
(45:03):
sin is is a big problem andforgiveness is a big solution,
and I think both of them gettrivialized.
Do you agree with that?
Speaker 2 (45:13):
Yes, I do.
I think we very much take God'srole in forgiving us for
granted, so it can vary.
Well, paul says in Romans 2that we can presume on the
riches of God's grace, and Itake that to mean we assume
it'll always be there you know,I can always repent later.
God will always have me back.
(45:34):
It'll be fine.
It's just what God does.
And so we end up.
You know that inevitably has aneffect on how we live, but then
I also think that we minimizeour own need to forgive other
people.
So I think both of those areunder-emphasized.
Speaker 1 (45:52):
I agree.
Okay, what did I miss?
Speaker 2 (45:56):
I don't know.
I think I've given you severalof my impassioned rants, so I'm
probably just about out.
I'm probably just about out.
Speaker 1 (46:03):
Well, they're good, impassioned rants.
I like that.
I end all the podcasts, as youknow, with be good and do good.
Speaker 2 (46:14):
What's good about us forgiving others?
There is a beauty in livingyour life free of the hurts that
you've gone through.
There is beauty inunderstanding and relating to
people who have hurt you, askingthe question why did they do
this?
Have I ever done something likethat?
Understanding that I have alsohurt people and I'm not any
(46:35):
different.
I'm not any better uh, that Ineed to be able to let this go,
because we're the same person meand the person who me.
There's good in seeing yourwounds redeemed and transformed
into healing and sometimes eveninto things that can bless you
and bless other people in thefuture that you would have never
guessed when the hurts werehappening.
(46:55):
There is beauty in being ableto come to God again and again
and saying I know how evil thisis and what I've done, but I'm
just so thankful for your mercy.
There is good in beingreconciled to God and being
reconciled to people when youknow that none of us deserve it.
(47:19):
So the beauty of a toughrelationship that doesn't just
quit when we sometimes bump intoeach other and hurt each
other's feelings.
The beauty of a toughrelationship that doesn't just
quit when we sometimes bump intoeach other and hurt each
other's feelings, the beauty ofthat kind of closeness in a
marriage or in a friendship orin a brother-sister relationship
or in somebody that's a friend,the beauty that says I'm not
going away just because we'vehad a problem.
(47:40):
I just see beauty inforgiveness, because it makes us
into entirely different, deeper, more mature people.
So I think that's good.
Speaker 1 (47:51):
All right, jacob.
Thank you, I appreciate it, man.
Speaker 2 (47:55):
Thank you so much, brother.
Speaker 1 (47:59):
Jacob is a great guy and I appreciate his
understanding of forgiveness.
As he pointed out, forgivenesscomes at a cost, whether it's
the ultimate sacrifice on thecross or us learning to swallow
our pride.
It's way too easy to downplaywhat forgiveness really means.
I don't know about you, butI've heard countless
conversations about forgiveness.
(48:20):
Most of them have a point.
Forgiveness isn't just for theperson who messed up.
It's also about freeingourselves from that burden.
Like a lot of things inChristianity, it's easy to
preach about forgiveness.
We know we're supposed to do it, we know God's done it for us
(48:42):
and we know we're called toextend that same grace to others
.
But let's be real.
This is something everyChristian struggles with.
We've all been hurt, sometimesdeeply, and it's important to
acknowledge that pain.
Don't rush into trustingsomeone again quickly, but, as
(49:04):
Jesus taught us in the Lord'sPrayer, forgive us our debts as
we have forgiven our debtors.
It goes both ways.
Forgiveness is a journey andnot a quick fix.
It's a choice we have to makeagain and again, just like God
(49:24):
keeps forgiving us.
It's part of what heals andrestores all relationships.
So you know, the Balancing theChristian Life conference is
November 7th through 9th.
You still have time to sign up.
Just go to my website,balancingthechristianlifecom,
and sign up for it there.
It's free, but has places whereyou can help defray the costs.
(49:46):
So until next time, let's begood and do good.
In this episode of Balancing the Christian Life, we
talk about the importance offorgiveness.
Welcome to Balancing theChristian Life.
I'm Dr Kenny Embry.
Join me as we discover how tobe better Christians and people
in the digital age.
Sin is a big problem thatrequires a big solution.
(00:21):
Yeah, we sin a lot so much sothat it doesn't seem like a big
deal, except it is a big deal.
So what's the solution to thisbig deal?
Forgiveness.
I think we probably think offorgiveness as just the other
half of this puzzle.
It's the jelly in a PB&J.
You just can't talk about sinwithout talking about
(00:44):
forgiveness.
But that is precisely what Iwanted to do.
Last time, we talked about theproblem of sin with my friend
Keith Stonehart, and this time Iwanted to talk about the more
optimistic side of this coinforgiveness.
To talk about this idea, Ibrought in another old friend,
Jacob Hudgens.
He's an evangelist in CollegeStation, Texas, and an author of
(01:08):
several books, including adevotional about grace and
another one about what he callsthe school of Christ.
Specifically, I wanted to seewhat the importance of
forgiveness truly is, and we dothat.
I want you to watch out for afew things, including how Jesus
showed us what true forgivenessshould look like.
(01:28):
We'll also look at whatforgiveness costs, and not just
Jesus.
Think about what realforgiveness costs you.
We'll also see how personal,spiritual forgiveness changes
things.
On a few practical pieces ofadvice when it comes to
forgiveness.
Yeah, that's a lot about asimple but profound idea.
(01:52):
So, Jacob, let's start here.
What is forgiveness?
Speaker 2 (01:58):
Well, forgiveness is where an offense has been
committed and there is aconsequence of the offense, and
forgiveness is where the debt isreleased and we're no longer on
the hook for what we've done.
So it has dimensions that haveto do with how God views our sin
and his willingness to releaseus from those debts, and it also
(02:22):
has dimensions that have to dowith us and other people.
Jesus connects those when hesays forgive us our debts as we
forgive our debtors in theLord's prayer.
So there's a connection betweenGod overlooking letting go of
our sins and us doing the samefor others.
Speaker 1 (02:41):
Well, you entered into almost churchy language
immediately.
Um, we, we understood if I weretelling my kids to you guys
need to get it, get over this,you guys need to forgive
yourself, each other and andjust stop being stupid.
Uh, they would understand that.
(03:04):
But is this different in apersonal context versus
religious context?
Speaker 2 (03:15):
so you're right about that.
But I think that perhaps theone difference is that very
often our forgiveness issues aremuch more about personal
(03:41):
offenses and things that are notnecessarily evil in themselves
but are hurtful, whereas thingsthat have to do with God are
evil, and when we sin againstGod, it's not just that we hurt
his feelings, it's that we'vedone something that's evil.
But I do think there is astrong connection in the idea of
how do we manage having arelationship going forward with
(04:03):
people who have hurt us or donewrong, and in that sense we have
God as a model, god as anexample of not giving up on
people just because they're notdoing what they should, and God
not thinking people areirredeemable, which I think.
When we have experience withother people, we start to feel
(04:25):
that way, especially certainpeople.
We just feel like this willnever work.
I'm done with this, and some ofwhat God does shows us he looks
at people differently, but alot of what Jesus teaches says
that just can't be the wayChristians think.
Speaker 1 (04:41):
I completely agree with you on that.
I think I completely agree withyou on that.
I think, especially when westarted thinking about the
person of Jesus and who Jesus isand what he did.
I mean, I suspect that yourprayer life might be a little
bit like mine, where it's thetagline for every prayer I've
ever said which is forgive us ofour sins or forgive me of my
(05:03):
sins, for every prayer I've eversaid which is forgive us of our
sins or forgive me of my sins,and it kind of becomes that
thing that I add in there,because I know that's what makes
it a real prayer and I don'treally think about what I'm
asking for.
And again, when I was talking toKeith Stonehart about sin, we
(05:24):
so quickly want to rush to the,the, the solution, which is
forgiveness.
But, as you were talking aboutthere, jesus is the model of
forgiveness.
In what ways is he that model?
I mean, he would tell, uh, hewould tell, uh, he would tell
Peter that, that, that, that weshould forgive one another 70
(05:46):
times 7.
So I guess that puts us up to a490.
And I guess, if we need to,well, we both know, I mean,
that's figurative language.
So what does Jesus teach usabout forgiveness?
Speaker 2 (06:01):
So Jesus has a completely different uh
perspective.
I think everybody you read thegospels and everybody around him
sees it uh and even today, likewe're all, even as a society,
that is is really moving awayfrom a biblical foundation.
We're all fascinated by jesus.
We can tell there's somethingunique about him and I think
(06:22):
forgiveness is a huge part ofwhat he brings.
That's unique and it's awillingness to say I know you're
not.
They feel like I can come tothis man and don't know about
the Pharisees, I don't knowabout the religious leaders, but
(06:50):
I can come to Jesus and I'm atax collector, I'm a prostitute
and I can find something in himthat nobody else is giving,
which is the acceptance of I'mwilling to love you in spite of
the fact that you've sinned.
So that I think Jesus teachesus that there's more to people
(07:11):
than their sins, and we can'tjust throw people out because
they have not been perfect, evenif they've given themselves
over to a lifestyle of sin, likesome of those people had.
He is willing to accept andreconsider, even sacrifice his
own reputation for those people,even sometimes get hurt.
(07:31):
Judas betrays him.
He is even willing to forgivethose who are killing him while
they do it.
So Jesus is, like, fullycommitted to this way of living.
He is going to forgive peopleeven if it hurts him, even if he
has to do it over and overagain.
Think about how many times thedisciples did dumb and hurtful
(07:54):
stuff to him that probably wouldhave earned a dismissal from
one of us.
But he's very patient with them, and so I think he teaches us
that forgiveness is a worthwhilepriority.
I think the fact that his lifestill resonates shows us that
like this is something that isageless, but it's also
personally taxing.
Like it costs you something.
(08:16):
It costs Jesus so much toforgive people.
It costs him his reputation, itcosts him physical suffering,
and yet you don't come out ofthat saying, well, he was dumb
to think that way.
Instead, you come out sayingthis may be so important that
it's worth all of that.
So I think we need both ofthose perspectives that it's
worthwhile, but it's also goingto hurt.
Speaker 1 (08:38):
You know, one of the stories that Keith and I started
talking about was the story ofHosea and I started talking
about was the story of Hosea,who was intentionally married to
a prostitute, and the ideathere being there's nothing that
Hosea did that warranted thekind of treatment he got from
(09:01):
Gomer, and in many ways, I feellike Hosea in some ways looks
like a very weak man because hehas a wife that he keeps on
coming back to, that keeps onabusing him and keeps on using
him, but ultimately, by the timeyou get to the end of the story
(09:25):
, he is a brokenhearted man.
But he's a very strong man andI think that's one of the
misperceptions that we can oftenhave with forgiveness.
Do you think forgiveness makesus stronger or weaker?
Speaker 2 (09:39):
Oh, absolutely stronger.
But I do think there is thatmisconception that still
persists that you're not holdingpeople to account, you're
letting people take advantage ofyou.
And I do think I want to beclear.
I do think that there aresituations where people who are
in an abusive relationship mightsay you know whativeness is not
(10:02):
really the issue there, and I'mnot saying even Jesus is
recommending you keep gettingabused.
But there is.
You read his words in Matthew 5about turning the other cheek
and loving your enemies, and Ithink a lot of people would see
that as weak.
You know, they would see astrong person as retaliating and
defending themselves.
(10:23):
But that's just part of Jesus'perspective.
He's going to say there'sstrength in the seeming weakness
and forgiveness.
Again, I keep coming back tothis Jesus' life resonates with
people because there is far morestrength in the restraint and
the care and compassion he hadthan there is in somebody who
(10:46):
would just come out and I don'tknow, do a Samson and just kind
of tear everybody apart.
Yeah, that's a form of strength, but Samson's also incredibly
weak.
And so I do think one of thethings we struggle with with
forgiveness is not really thatwe come across as weak, it's
that we feel our wrongs deservebetter justice than what
(11:12):
forgiveness would give us.
For some reason, when I'm hurt,it's worse than anybody else's
pain that's ever experiencedpain, and so that sense of
injustice especially when Ihaven't done anything to deserve
it, like you mentioned a minuteago with Jose and Gomer.
I don't deserve this treatment.
I've done the right thing,they've treated me poorly, and
(11:34):
so there's no way those two aregoing to meet and I'm going to
be okay with it.
It just seems so unfair and Ithink that creates a tremendous
level of emotional pushback forit.
Speaker 1 (11:47):
Can we take it for granted?
Is forgiveness one of thosethings that, as Christians, we
just sit back and you know,sending is my job, forgiveness
is God's job.
Let me do my job and I'll lethim do his.
Speaker 2 (12:00):
Yeah, well, we continue in sin.
That grace may abound.
It's something that I think itgoes back to what you said a
moment ago.
When we don't think sin is asserious as it is, then we don't
think forgiveness is as big adeal as it is.
Right to how we view otherpeople's sin, Because we look at
(12:24):
it as if God has got all themoney in the world and so him
forgiving a little debt from meis not a big deal, and when we
think of it that way, thensurely that's not going to be as
big a deal as when you hurt mebecause I don't have that much
to give.
So that is the exact opposite ofJesus' parable about how much
(12:46):
we've actually been forgivenversus how much we actually are
called on to forgive.
So I think it goes back to webecome glib about what our sin
really is, the rebellion itrepresents and the cost that it
took to let it go for God, andinstead we presume on that a
little bit and then we think itjust is way too much to ask for
(13:10):
us to let go of somebody else'ssmaller things.
Speaker 1 (13:15):
Well, you said that forgiveness is a big deal.
Make the case for me.
Steel man that argument.
Speaker 2 (13:29):
Why is forgiveness a big deal?
Well, the there's severaldimensions of the people holding
on to the hurts that have beendone to you and the bitterness
(13:50):
and anger that that causes inyou will destroy you.
It will ruin your life.
You just ask the question.
You go meet someone and they're80 years old and they're
crotchety and angry and you askthe question how do people get
to be crotchety and angry?
It's because they never learnedto forgive and they have kept
(14:13):
an account of every wrong that'sever happened to them.
So if you want the answer thatmodern man would appreciate it's
.
This is something that is foryour best life and your mental
health to learn to let things go.
You can't just store upeverything that's ever gone
wrong in your life, or else youwill become a person that you
and everyone else hates.
Speaker 1 (14:35):
Now, that's one answer, by the way let's give it
its due as well, because Ithink that is where a lot of
people get hung up.
They will, they will sit foryears and stew on on something
that some people will not evenremember, and and that's, that's
that will.
I mean you will lose.
You will lose, uh, precioustime, but but you will.
(14:59):
You will lose the ability to,to, to progress on to something,
and that is you won't say it,but let me say it that's stupid,
that is just supremely stupid,because what you're doing is you
are giving somebody elsecontrol over what you do.
You have given them your brainrent-free, and that is a
(15:23):
supremely stupid thing to do,because they can't.
You are giving them control ofyou.
Again, I apologize, and Irealize what you're saying right
now is that's not a spiritualthing, that's really more a
psychology thing.
But the psychology of that isabsolutely true that if you do
(15:43):
not, from a psychological pointof view, learn how to forgive,
you will make yourself miserable.
Does that make sense?
Speaker 2 (15:51):
Yes, oh, absolutely.
I think there is a biblicalcase there when Paul says let
all wrath and anger andbitterness be put away from you,
with all malice, and be kind toone another, tender, hard and
forgiving.
Like you, you look at all ofthose.
They're all representations ofhow anger will consume your life
and poison you if you don'tlearn to forgive.
(16:14):
Uh, but I do think that that uhperspective, where we we hold
onto things, not only do otherpeople control us, but we stay
stuck in a certain state wherewe're the victim and we forget
what we've done.
And it's not about I've neverhurt anybody and we say things
like I can never understand howanyone would do that, which is
(16:36):
really not using ourimaginations very well, if we
can't understand how otherpeople would do wrong things or
how we would, that wholementality is such a dead end,
spiritually speaking, thatforgiveness is just the clear
way out of it's sort of like umI heard this expression one time
you can't be greedy if yourhands are always open, you know
(16:59):
if you're, if you're alwaysgiving things away, you can't be
greedy.
And you can't be bitter ifyou're always forgiving.
It just won't work.
You can't do both.
And so there's a Bible solutionto a very serious anger,
depression problem that persistsin our culture and grievance
(17:19):
type stuff.
So that's one answer type stuff.
So that's one answer.
I would say.
Part of what forgiveness isimportant for doing is it helps
us grow deeper spiritually.
I've had some things that havegone on in my life where they
were long-term, big picturewounds that I just wrestle.
(17:42):
I mean I just wrestle with.
Can I forgive this person, canI get over this?
And I would pray Jesus modelprayer forgive us our debts as
we forgive our debtors.
And I would pray that dailybecause I think it's intended to
be a daily prayer and I wouldevery day.
It was like how am I doing onthis?
(18:04):
It's like poking the bruise.
You know how, how do I feeltoday and and ask for strength
to let go of that today.
Speaker 1 (18:11):
And.
Speaker 2 (18:11):
I'll tell you um time passes, the Lord heals and
works in our lives.
But but it was much harder thanI would have ever guessed just
from reading that verse.
It's a verse.
It just says forgive, butforgiveness can be a process and
a process of growth and healingand learning new perspectives
and trying to think differently.
(18:31):
And then when you are given thegift of being able to move
forward, you see the brillianceof it and I feel like I'm in a
different place than I wasstruggling with all of those
things.
So I am concerned a bit that wein our nation have exchanged
(18:54):
biblical thought for some reallyshallow thinking about topics
like this, where Paul would sayabout topics like this, where
Paul would say why can't you bedefrauded?
Why can't you get the wrong endof the stick?
What is it in you that is soimportant that you can't ever
suffer?
How can you serve a sufferingSavior and nothing bad ever
(19:17):
happens to you, or you whine andcomplain, and that to me.
I really do think that if Paulwere to march into some of our
churches, he would just chew usall out about that, like can you
guys not get along, get oversome of this stuff Really, like
Jesus died for you to forgiveyou, and you can't even let the
smallest things go.
(19:37):
So to me there is a depth there, depth there, and then I will
just say that that whole process, you know, you grow and you can
tell you are becoming more likeJesus, because when we're able
to let things go, we view peopledifferently and we begin to be
(19:57):
more open, the way he is.
We begin to say you know what,kenny?
I know we've had our problems,but I love you and we're
brothers and we're going to beokay.
Instead of it being, oh great,here comes Kenny again.
Do you hear what he said aboutme?
That one time, you know, and soour relationship strengthened,
our churches strengthened andwe're able to.
You know, other people look atus who are outside and begin to
(20:20):
say, hey, maybe, maybe that's aplace where I'll be received
instead of rejected, because youknow outside, and begin to say,
hey, maybe that's a place whereI'll be received instead of
rejected, because I have somethings that need to be forgiven.
You just keep expanding thecircle out.
We become more like Jesus andeverything is transformed.
I can keep going with thatanswer but I think you get my
(20:42):
drift.
Speaker 1 (20:42):
Well, if the benefits of forgiveness are so obvious
and you make them sound great Imean, this is just the best
thing since sliced bread, and Idon't eat bread Then why isn't
everybody doing it, hudgens?
Speaker 2 (20:53):
It's hard, it's hard, it's hard.
It's hard to just think back towhen you were a child and the
first few times you were hurtdeeply by something someone said
or did, and you think back tohow betrayed you felt, how
(21:19):
disorienting it was.
I'm not sure that we everreally acclimate to wounds like
that.
I suspect this is just mypersonal experience, but there
are some people I kind of expectto hurt me, or I kind of expect
to not care.
But when the people who Iexpect to do right by me don't,
(21:39):
when I've given my full heartedeffort and they spit on it, it's
a special kind of pain.
And so when I talk aboutforgiveness, I don't and and you
know I we've had situations inour family where you know
there's been adultery and, andyou know, long-term pain and
(22:01):
long-term betrayal.
These things are not easy.
It's not a you snap yourfingers and you're over it.
Nor is it like, hey, just readyour Bible and get over it.
It's a process.
It's painful and there's a partof you that, like we've said
before, it feels like they'regetting away with it if you let
(22:21):
it go.
You know that this personshould be defined by this
forever.
But I think that that wholeidea of transforming the heart
from just a wounded heart to aheart that's willing to go all
the way and accept and maybeeven rebuild a relationship with
someone who's hurt.
Like that.
It's just hard.
(22:42):
I don't think that the answeris any deeper than that.
It's extremely hard and I alsomentioned that.
Like for me it was a year'sprocess and just that's, just
that one situation.
So I don't think everybody's upfor that.
Like they're not saying, hey, Iwant to spend years trying to
get over something.
(23:03):
They don't see any need for it,I'll just be mad and stay mad
and, just you know, talk badabout them whenever I see them.
So, uh, I don't.
I want to be clear as much asI'm a proponent for forgiveness,
I don't, um, uh, criticizepeople for for being hurt and
for struggling.
(23:23):
How do you deal with your pain?
I understand, I understand thatfully, but I just think we have
to say but, but we serve aforgiving Savior and there has
to be that, but in there.
If there's not, I've got aproblem.
I'm not sure how Christians aredifferent from the world if
we're not going to listen toJesus about something that's so
near and dear to our hearts.
Speaker 1 (23:44):
I think God expects us to forgive, to really
understand his position better,that if it's so hard for us, why
do we think it's so much easierfor God?
That sin is sin, but, but Imean sin.
The problem of sin is, but Imean sin.
(24:05):
The problem of sin is the sameproblems that we have with
people who act like knuckleheadsaround us, which is it's hard
for us to get back into arelationship with somebody that
has already given us proof thatthey have and will treat us
poorly, that they have and willtreat us poorly, and that's if
(24:26):
you can learn how to do that,you're a good person, you're a
better person, you're a strongerperson, as we've already talked
about.
But I think I don't know and Idisagree with you with this, if
you want to, hudgens but I thinkhe calls on us to forgive so
that we can understand who he isand what he does.
(24:48):
Does that make sense to you?
Speaker 2 (24:50):
Yeah, absolutely.
And I actually think it canbuild a feeling of relationship
with God where, in a way I hateto say it this way, but it kind
of humanizes God.
I hate to say it like that,Cause you there's some things I
don't mean by that, but you knowwhat I mean Um, that makes God
relatable, because we feel thepain, Like when he gets
(25:11):
frustrated.
Especially there are times inthe old Testament where he says
you know, you guys know betterthan this.
And, uh, I I find myself sayingthe same thing to my children,
for one.
But, um, you know, saying thesame thing about somebody, maybe
in the church, like, hey, youknow better than this, why are
you acting this way?
(25:32):
And there's a special kind offrustration and hurt that comes
with that, and so it's like,yeah, I get it.
God, I'm right there with you.
I have felt that.
But the hard part is owningthat sometimes I make God feel
that way.
That's the hard part.
Speaker 1 (25:48):
Yeah, yeah.
And you said you don't want tohumanize God, and I guess what I
would say is I think God istrying to holy eyes us.
I mean, the thing about it isGod owns that and, to the extent
that we have to participate inthe same thing he does, it just
makes us more aware of themagnitude of what he has to do.
(26:10):
What he does well, not eventhat he has to do, I mean, he
has to only because of the moralcode that he does not violate.
He can let us rot Well, youknow that.
Um, he could let us rot well,you know that.
But let me ask you this, becauseI think one of the things that
(26:31):
you've already made an allusionto this it's it's one thing to
forgive somebody, but there aretimes when it doesn't make any
sense at all for you to get backinto a relationship with
somebody who, where it can bedangerous.
Can you speak to that?
Because I think one of thethings that is important for
(26:53):
Christians to understand isthere are some things that you
need to forgive.
You need to forgive, but thereare things that you need to
learn through the forgivenessprocess that go forward in a
relationship.
Do you see what I'm saying?
Speaker 2 (27:10):
Yeah, I would say, like I think of Jesus saying
don't give what's holy to thedogs, or cast your pearls before
swine lest they turn andtrample them and tear you to
pieces.
That idea of there are peoplewho they're dangerous, and I
(27:33):
think that we have to admit thatwithout saying I, you know, I'm
going to try to judge everybodyto see whether they're
dangerous, but there are timeswhere you, you learn that about
people from, uh, from being inrelationship with them, uh, so,
uh, the question then becomesyou know, do I forgive them?
And I think the answer is yes, Iforgive, like we've described,
um, but I think there's anotherstep there.
(27:54):
That's sort of the what are thepractical fallouts after I've
kind of let this go from my ownheart.
Um, you know, there are people,there are people who I'm not
going to have the samerelationship with because, not
because I'm still mad aboutsomething, but because I don't
trust them.
And there are people whosebehavior has proven, especially
(28:17):
over time, that they're a littlebit I don't like the word toxic
, but a little bit dangerous,and so I think that idea of
what's the ongoing fallout isnot the same as do I get to hold
onto my anger and live in mypain and frustration.
(28:37):
To me those are two separateissues and I think those get
conflated when we discussforgiveness.
So there are know there, thereare.
So, for example, you know youhave a marriage that that breaks
up over an affair and there canbe forgiveness, but there
doesn't necessarily have to beokay, but this to forgive this,
this couple has to stay together, um, that sort of thing.
(29:00):
Uh, and I would just say, youknow there are, like the one
that always comes up is the Idon't know why this always
happens.
I don't know, maybe it happenedtoo much in the past but the
treasurer at the church who'scaught stealing money, you know
you can forgive him, but do youput him back in charge of the
treasury?
You know, I guess it's beenhappening since Judas's day, by
(29:21):
the way, but that idea, do wekeep putting trust in a person?
It's like, well, there may be aprocess to get different.
I mean to reestablish trust.
Speaker 1 (29:36):
To me those are just different issues.
Yeah, me too.
I think I have been thinkingfor a long time now that one of
the highest callings that Godhas called us to is wisdom, that
there is the idea of wisdom andwhat it means to apply God's
law.
So the New Testament is notLeviticus, it's not Deuteronomy,
(30:01):
it's not a list of laws.
It's basically a modeling oflaws.
It's, it's, it's basically a, amodeling of a life, well-lived,
uh, and I think that's the.
There are definitely things thatwe were told to do and told not
to do.
For the most part, when you,when you think about the
relationship again, I guess oneof the things I come back to and
(30:23):
I've I've referenced thisseveral times is that paul and
barnabas over john mark and Idon't think that was I don't
necessarily think that was aforgiveness situation.
It might have been I I just weare given so few details about
that that entire uh, blow up,fight, whatever you want to call
(30:44):
it.
But I think one of the thingsthat happened makes a lot of
sense to me, because Barnabasand Paul wouldn't travel
together again over something,but both of them found ways to
be important in the kingdom.
Still, we hear a lot more aboutPaul, but it is impossible for
(31:09):
me to think that Barnabas wouldmake him stop, because we read
later on about how John Mark isone of the people that Paul
wants to see after a while.
I think one of the things that Ithink about that there are
times when Christians can justreach an impasse and we are both
(31:31):
better served by not workingtogether.
Do you see what I'm saying?
I'm not trying to ramble.
I promise Jacob.
Speaker 2 (31:40):
I think there are just times where we have
legitimate disagreements.
To me there's no wrong done inthe Paul Barnabas situation, not
like one of them wounded theother, and so to me it's not a
forgiveness issue.
But I do think we work closelytogether.
We're going to have somephilosophical differences and to
(32:03):
me I can really see it Likehere's Paul he's got the
personality where he says youknow, this work is too important
to have this guy desert usagain and you know we're doing
the work.
You want to come, you got to bein all in and you totally see
that in Paul's personality.
Here's Barnabas he's all aboutthe people.
He's like hey, he learned hislesson, give him another chance.
We got to be accepting and warmwith people and they just have a
(32:26):
difference of opinion, likethey just don't see it the same
way, and you can see that happenlike that.
That's totally a picture frommodern times, where any two
people just view the worlddifferently and make the
different decisions about acertain situation.
So so I just think, that what'shappening here is sometimes we
(32:48):
have to say let's keep doing thework and let's not be bitter
and angry at each other.
But you know, this may bebetter if we're not together.
And there are people like that,and I think it's important to
value each other's work in thekingdom in those situations and
not say, well, I don't like hisopinion about X or Y, so I'm
(33:12):
going to act like he's not evena believer, and I think I'm
impressed that you don't eversee that from either Paul or
Barnabas.
There's no aspersions cast inany way.
Speaker 1 (33:24):
Not that are recorded , that's for sure, but I think
one of the things that well, letme ask you about this, and
we've made reference to thispretty straightforwardly what
does forgiveness teach us aboutGod?
Speaker 2 (33:46):
I think the main thing is that God still wants
relationship and he wants it sobadly with us that he is willing
to find a way, even when theway is closed, and he's willing
(34:06):
to take the cost on himself.
But all of the things that fallunder that umbrella of what
Jesus did and how God becamejust, and the justifier all of
that to me is the subheading tothe main headline, which is God
wants a relationship so bad withyou that he will find a way to
put away your sin.
And when I say that about God,I again keep coming back to us,
(34:33):
because that becomes thequestion for us Do I want
relationships with my brothersand sisters, with my family
members, with my fellow man somuch that I would be willing to
put away sin and forgive?
And because to me that helps somuch to reframe it, as this is
about love and not about me,it's about do I care about
(34:58):
people?
And so God shows thistremendous level of care where
he says he could have justthrown the whole project away.
I mean, nobody's good enough,no one's righteous, not going to
happen, and yet he wants it badenough.
So I think that in almost everysituation, if we want it bad
(35:19):
enough.
We can maintain relationshipsdespite people sinning against
us and hurting us.
Speaker 1 (35:29):
Often in our congregations we know the guy
who's going to come forward atthe invitation song and things
like that.
Is there a difference betweenpersonally forgiving somebody
and then forgiving somebody as achurch?
Speaker 2 (35:49):
Well, I think, um, I think the church is the
compilation of a lot ofindividuals, um, but I I do
think I've I've noticed this intalking to people.
Um, people are afraid to talkto the church, and I think I
(36:10):
know why.
I think it has to do with sometraditional reactions that they
expect when something serioushas happened.
They expect people to react ina harsh and judgmental way.
I've not seen that in mylifetime, which I'm thankful for
.
I have seen, when someone has aserious sin to confess, that
(36:35):
the group welcomes them andembraces them.
But I think that, you know,those are the kinds of things
that take a long time to unwind,and the struggle with doing
things as a group is that anyone person can mouth off and
(36:56):
suddenly the whole church soundslike they're intolerant.
Uh, and I, I had that situationwhen I moved to a new church
and I had only been that churchfor a few months and someone
came and asked me if I do this,will somebody here say something
?
And I'm like, okay, so I'msupposed to tell you what 300
(37:17):
people might say that I don'teven know, you know, and so,
like that, that is different.
But I think, as a church, what'simportant is that we have
leaders who are leading byreceiving and welcoming.
I think it's important that wehave preaching that encourages
people to bring their issues andnot hide them, not just Bible
(37:40):
robots who always say and do theright thing.
We're actual people.
And then to say can we findways to keep these people in
front of us and include them aspart of the group?
Maybe that's you know, theyneed to be parts of worship, or
maybe that's we need to keepchecking on them, but it doesn't
need to be.
They did their penance and cameforward and now, you know, we
(38:04):
kind of stick them in the backroom or we don't talk about what
happened or something like that.
So to me there are some churchthings that are a little
different from the personal part.
But I am a little wary of usingthe church as if that process
of going forward and tellingeveryone in the church as a way
(38:25):
of adding a requirement wherethe church is controlling things
.
I'm aware of that.
It, to me, is very Catholic inthe sense that Catholicism has
the church usually standingbetween a person and God, and
that's not our job as a church.
They don't need our forgivenessto get God's forgiveness.
So there are some things aboutthat that may be a little uneasy
(38:47):
, but at the same time Iunderstand people wanting to let
others know I'm trying to doright again.
I need your help, and I thinkthat's definitely a positive.
Speaker 1 (38:58):
So let me just sum up here.
It sounds like forgiveness isthat thing that basically puts
two people who are at odds backinto a relationship.
That makes sense, that it'ssomething that we need to do.
We need to do it for ourselves,we need to do it for the others
.
It's also something that helpsus identify with God.
These are all things that areimportant, and God does it on a
(39:22):
regular basis and see if youagree with this.
And it's not his job.
It's his gift that this issomething that we don't deserve
and it's not something that he'sgoing to go in from nine to
five to make sure that our sinis forgiven, but it is the gift
that he gives us when we decideto have that kind of
(39:46):
relationship with him.
Does this all make sense to you?
Speaker 2 (39:50):
Yeah, absolutely.
I would add you don't haveChristianity without forgiveness
, right?
Jesus makes no sense withoutforgiveness.
Jesus makes no sense withoutforgiveness.
It is the signature teaching ofJesus' life, which means it's
the most important teaching ofthe most important man who's
(40:13):
ever lived.
And if we want to be Christiansand receive forgiveness from
God, we can't not forgive.
It just doesn't work.
And I am alarmed at times whenI see and I mean you can hear it
, because when you stumble onsomeone's bitterness, it's
(40:36):
abundantly clear that very oftenChristians can be Christians
for 50 or 60 years and sit inthe church pew and quote
Ephesians, and yet we don'tactually forgive the people
who've hurt us.
And I just think there's adisconnect there that we just
have to call out.
(40:56):
I don't want to be a Christianwho doesn't follow Jesus.
I want to be a Christian whodoes what Jesus?
did.
So I want to say I'm thankfulfor a God who's willing to
forgive in this way, and I amchallenged by what that means
for me, with my hurts andstruggles.
Speaker 1 (41:17):
Let me get you to go back and unpack just a little
bit more.
You say this is basicallyJesus's signature move, that
this is what Jesus was all about.
Let's face it Most people whoare looking for Jesus weren't
looking for forgiveness.
This was not what they neededthe Messiah to be.
They needed the Messiah to kickRome out.
(41:38):
Why do you say that this isJesus's main purpose?
Do?
Speaker 2 (41:46):
you say that this is, this is uh, jesus's uh main
purpose.
Well, I think there is uh forone.
He's here for forgiveness, toforgive others.
Um, you know he comes for thatpurpose, so that he can be God's
one.
He uses to bring forgiveness tothe people.
Um, but you can also see how he?
He, yeah, he is different.
(42:08):
It is not what they're expecting.
They do want him to come, kickthe Romans out, but think about
who he draws to himself.
It is not the people who don'tneed forgiveness, it's everybody
who does.
So you've got the, the Phariseeand the tax collector.
And the Pharisee is saying Ithank you that I'm not like
(42:30):
other men, I'm not like thescumbag tax collector.
And the tax collector says God,be merciful to me, a sinner who
comes to Jesus.
Are the people who needforgiveness and who doesn't come
are the people who thinkthey're fine.
Jesus talks to the blind manabout.
You know, these guys think thatthey see and so their sin
remains.
But if you know that you'reblind, then you can come to me
(42:51):
and receive sight.
So that idea becomes a way hein that uniquely God genius way.
It's like an off-speed pitch.
They're not expecting it, butit ends up separating the world
into the people who are willingto see God's mercy and the
people who are not, and then thepeople who are willing to
(43:12):
extend mercy to others and thepeople who are not.
So, um, I just see that as athread and the disciples pick up
on it.
They hear him pray and Jesuspoints it out you know, if you
want God to forgive you, youforgive others.
And Jesus points it out.
You know, if you want God toforgive you, you forgive others.
Tell the story of the man.
You know, the man who isforgiven a great debt and won't
forgive a small debt.
(43:32):
And Peter says how many timesdo I have to forgive?
Because Peter, by the way, isall up on it, he hears it.
Jesus says your brother sinsagainst you.
Go tell him his fault.
You've gained your brother.
And Peter says whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.
I have to forgive him.
How many times?
Speaker 1 (43:48):
Like seven, and Jesus blows his mind.
Speaker 2 (43:51):
So I just look at that.
It's a consistent teachingtheme, it's a consistent
character theme.
It's who he is.
People are drawn to him becauseof this.
You think about the womancaught in adultery and she comes
to him and he says I don'tcondemn you either.
You know, that whole idea ofsomething about him is uniquely
accepting of people even thoughthey're sinners, and then, of
(44:14):
course, him dying for the sinsof the world.
So I look at that and I saythat's unique and that's the
signature thing.
And when people talk aboutJesus it's just the thread that
goes through his whole life.
So I just want to calldisciples of Jesus to be more
like Jesus in that area, toappreciate our forgiveness and
(44:37):
then to extend it to otherpeople.
I just don't see any other wayto follow Jesus.
Speaker 1 (44:42):
Like I said last time time, I was talking to Keith
about the problem of sin, andthis is obviously the solution
to sin, the only, the only othersolution is if we just stopped
sending altogether and then weget started on that.
The reason I wanted this to bea separate episode is because
(45:03):
sin is is a big problem andforgiveness is a big solution,
and I think both of them gettrivialized.
Do you agree with that?
Speaker 2 (45:13):
Yes, I do.
I think we very much take God'srole in forgiving us for
granted, so it can vary.
Well, paul says in Romans 2that we can presume on the
riches of God's grace, and Itake that to mean we assume
it'll always be there you know,I can always repent later.
God will always have me back.
(45:34):
It'll be fine.
It's just what God does.
And so we end up.
You know that inevitably has aneffect on how we live, but then
I also think that we minimizeour own need to forgive other
people.
So I think both of those areunder-emphasized.
Speaker 1 (45:52):
I agree.
Okay, what did I miss?
Speaker 2 (45:56):
I don't know.
I think I've given you severalof my impassioned rants, so I'm
probably just about out.
I'm probably just about out.
Speaker 1 (46:03):
Well, they're good, impassioned rants.
I like that.
I end all the podcasts, as youknow, with be good and do good.
Speaker 2 (46:14):
What's good about us forgiving others?
There is a beauty in livingyour life free of the hurts that
you've gone through.
There is beauty inunderstanding and relating to
people who have hurt you, askingthe question why did they do
this?
Have I ever done something likethat?
Understanding that I have alsohurt people and I'm not any
(46:35):
different.
I'm not any better uh, that Ineed to be able to let this go,
because we're the same person meand the person who me.
There's good in seeing yourwounds redeemed and transformed
into healing and sometimes eveninto things that can bless you
and bless other people in thefuture that you would have never
guessed when the hurts werehappening.
(46:55):
There is beauty in being ableto come to God again and again
and saying I know how evil thisis and what I've done, but I'm
just so thankful for your mercy.
There is good in beingreconciled to God and being
reconciled to people when youknow that none of us deserve it.
(47:19):
So the beauty of a toughrelationship that doesn't just
quit when we sometimes bump intoeach other and hurt each
other's feelings.
The beauty of a toughrelationship that doesn't just
quit when we sometimes bump intoeach other and hurt each
other's feelings, the beauty ofthat kind of closeness in a
marriage or in a friendship orin a brother-sister relationship
or in somebody that's a friend,the beauty that says I'm not
going away just because we'vehad a problem.
(47:40):
I just see beauty inforgiveness, because it makes us
into entirely different, deeper, more mature people.
So I think that's good.
Speaker 1 (47:51):
All right, jacob.
Thank you, I appreciate it, man.
Speaker 2 (47:55):
Thank you so much, brother.
Speaker 1 (47:59):
Jacob is a great guy and I appreciate his
understanding of forgiveness.
As he pointed out, forgivenesscomes at a cost, whether it's
the ultimate sacrifice on thecross or us learning to swallow
our pride.
It's way too easy to downplaywhat forgiveness really means.
I don't know about you, butI've heard countless
conversations about forgiveness.
(48:20):
Most of them have a point.
Forgiveness isn't just for theperson who messed up.
It's also about freeingourselves from that burden.
Like a lot of things inChristianity, it's easy to
preach about forgiveness.
We know we're supposed to do it, we know God's done it for us
(48:42):
and we know we're called toextend that same grace to others
.
But let's be real.
This is something everyChristian struggles with.
We've all been hurt, sometimesdeeply, and it's important to
acknowledge that pain.
Don't rush into trustingsomeone again quickly, but, as
(49:04):
Jesus taught us in the Lord'sPrayer, forgive us our debts as
we have forgiven our debtors.
It goes both ways.
Forgiveness is a journey andnot a quick fix.
It's a choice we have to makeagain and again, just like God
(49:24):
keeps forgiving us.
It's part of what heals andrestores all relationships.
So you know, the Balancing theChristian Life conference is
November 7th through 9th.
You still have time to sign up.
Just go to my website,balancingthechristianlifecom,
and sign up for it there.
It's free, but has places whereyou can help defray the costs.
(49:46):
So until next time, let's begood and do good.
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