Basic Christianity: What is sin, a conversation with Keith Stonehart

Have you ever stopped to consider why sin, despite our best intentions, continues to be a persistent struggle in our lives? In this episode of Balancing the Christian Life, Kenny Embry and Keith Stonehart invite us to confront this challenging question. Rather than focusing solely on forgiveness and redemption, they delve into the often-overlooked aspects of sin – its origins, its cost, and our perception of it. Join them as they explore the gravity of sin and its impact on our relationship with God, challenging us to move beyond simple acknowledgment and strive for a deeper understanding of its consequences.

Key Takeaways:

1. Sin is more than "missing the mark." It involves deception, selfishness, and a violation of God's law.
2. We often justify our sins, minimizing their impact and deceiving ourselves about their true nature.
3. Sin separates us from God. It creates a barrier in our relationship with Him and hinders our spiritual growth.
4. The cost of sin is immense. It required the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross.
5. We need to confront our sinfulness honestly. Acknowledging our sin is the first step towards repentance and restoration.
6. A sinless life, while difficult, is possible. It requires constant effort, vigilance, and reliance on God's grace.
7. Sin is a serious matter with eternal consequences. We must not become complacent or desensitized to its dangers.

Memorable Quotes:

1. "It's amazing the way we can justify the sins of all kinds of natures in our minds." - Keith Stonehart
2. "I think if we had real-time consequences for every sin that I committed, I got punched in the face... I would probably sin a lot less." - Keith Stonehart
3. "We don't realize that's why it's a big deal, because it is people are going to go to hell... If you study grace enough and you study forgiveness enough and you study the love of God enough, this reality becomes even more prominent." - Keith Stonehart
4. "God's justice... is death. But because we're extended grace, it's a non-justice that God extends to us because of our injustice." - Keith Stonehart
5. "What's it worth to be able to look her in the eyes and not look away because you're ashamed of yourself? That's intimacy." - Keith Stonehart
6. "You're taking something that could be good and you're introducing something bad, something evil... It doesn't take much poison to make something deadly." - Kenny Embry
7. "When you think about the cost... Jesus has to come to where he shouldn't be and buy us back." - Keith Stonehart (referencing the story of Hosea and Gomer)
8. "Satan likes things hidden. When they're hidden and when they're hidden in shame, then he gets exactly what he wants." - Kenny Embry
9. "I think the problem is we're all so busy justifying our own sins that we don't really take the time to look at the bigger picture... and we're not always willing to face the hard truths about ourselves." - Kenny Embry
10. "We need to be more honest with ourselves and with each other about our sins. We need to stop making excuses and start taking responsibility for our actions. Only then can we truly experience the healing and forgiveness that God offers." - Kenny Embry

Conclusion:

This episode provides a comprehensive overview of sin and its impact on our lives. It challenges us to examine our own hearts and seek to live a life that reflects God's grace and love.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
In this episode of Balancing the Christian Life, we
talk about the problem of sin.
Welcome to Balancing theChristian Life.
I'm Dr Kenny Embry.
Join me as we discover how tobe better Christians and people
in the digital age.
Why is sin such a big deal?

(00:20):
I think all of us know it's bad, but how bad is it really deal?
I think all of us know it's bad, but how bad is it really?
We've all done it.
If it's forgivable and it isthen why should we be worried
about it at all?
I think, as Christians, it'salmost impossible for us to see
sin as anything more than anirritation or a minor
inconvenience.
And yet that's not how it'spresented in the New Testament.

(00:44):
And yet that's not how it'spresented in the New Testament.
There it's big and terrible andunable to be overcome.
But hey, I prayed last nightand I asked for forgiveness, so
why even worry with it Again?
As Christians, I think we areso excited about getting to the
solution that we ignore theproblem altogether.

(01:06):
So in this episode I want tofocus on the problem of Zen.
This is another in the seriesof basic Christian ideas which I
think deserves both attentionand elaboration.
I'm bringing back an old friend,keith Stoneheart to do a
thankless task.
To answer the question of howbad is it really?

(01:34):
Keith is an old friend and anevangelist in the Birmingham
area.
I've talked to Keith a fewtimes about his story, which
involves a life of sex, drugsand rock and roll.
Literally, I knew he would havea good handle on this topic,
but please don't fool yourself.
If you're honest, you do too.
We're all sinners.
Keith and his wife, kelly, arerecent grandparents and he's

(01:56):
just an excellent guy.
So, keith, let's start here,what is sin?

Speaker 2 (02:01):
Oh man, what a deep question.
I'm going to do my best to notgo full preacher on you and just
talk like a regular guy.
I mean, we know the biblicaldefinition of sin is missing the
mark, right, but it's such adeeper concept than simply
missing the mark, becausethere's so many things wrapped

(02:21):
up into it.
It's the motivation for missingthe mark and I think that it's
a multi-layered principle thatI'm not sure that we can answer
in one sentence.
We know that sin separates usfrom God.
We know that sin is the reasonJesus had to die.
We know that sin is the thingthat we battle internally every

(02:46):
day, and yet I'm not sure wewould all know it.
When we see it, we pray to Godto forgive us of any unknown
sins.
So it's proving the fact thatsometimes we don't know it when
we do it.
I think at its core, aside fromit being the missing of the
mark, it is the deception ofbelieving that I hit the mark in

(03:10):
the first place.

Speaker 1 (03:12):
You know, I think you're right.
I think one of the things thatI would say at the very
beginning here is that if we'regoing to define sin, you kind of
have to go back to the firstone, which has to do with Adam
and Eve in the garden, and thecurses of sin in Genesis 3.
Basically talk about now thatyou've done this thing that you

(03:35):
weren't supposed to do.
Here are all the things thatare going to happen to you, and
it's a bunch of separations.
It's a separation of God forman.
It's a separation of Adam andEve.
To a certain extent, it's aseparation of man for man.
Another curse is that when youwork, everything is going to get
a lot harder, and it's aseparation of man from nature.

(03:59):
And really, when it comes downto it, sin is basically
violating a law that God has putinto place, and he has put laws
in place that are both moralbut also natural.
Do you see what I'm sayingthere?

Speaker 2 (04:18):
100%.
Yeah, do you agree with that?
No, absolutely, and I think itdoes echo back to the first sin.
Yeah.
I don't think Adam and Evethought it was going to turn out
like it did, because you knowwhat I mean.
Otherwise they wouldn't havedone it.
They knew the rule right.

(04:38):
The law was for the day you eatof it, you will surely die
Right.
And Satan steps in.
He adds three letters N-O-T.
Yeah, surely you'll not dieRight.
And that small three-letterword changes everything.
Yeah.

(05:00):
And I think in that moment theydidn't think it was going to
happen because they believed him.
They were deceived.
That's why I'm saying I thinkthat sin is essentially the
deception, that you didn't, thatthey thought they were doing
the right thing.
And I think nine times out of10, when people sin, they think
they're doing the right thing.
It's amazing the way we canjustify sins of all kinds of
natures in our minds.

(05:21):
Right, for the man who commitsadultery, or for the man who
views pornography, he canjustify that sin in his mind
because he feels that injusticehas been done to him, he feels
that he's been slighted or hehas been withheld from or

(05:42):
something to that nature.
And so a man can justify that.
A woman can justify thewithholding of intimacy from her
husband, believing she'sjustified for doing that,
ignoring fully what Paul says in1 Corinthians 7.
And she believes that she'sright for doing that, not seeing
the sin that exists in that.

(06:03):
So I think it boils down to adeception of consequences.
I don't think Adam and Evethought what was going to happen
, happened, or what happened wasgoing to happen.
Rather, judas, I don't thinkJudas thought for a second they
were actually going to lay handson Jesus.
You see Judas' response when hesells Jesus out, I mean he
repents.

(06:24):
I mean he goes to them and hesays this isn't what I thought.
Take your money back.
I mean he tries to repent tothem and they won't have it.
But I think that is because hedidn't really think they were
going to lay hands on him.
And when they did, it was nowhe realized he sinned, because
the deception was in his mindNothing's going to happen, we're

(06:44):
going to get their money,they're going to run in on Jesus
and he's going to vanish, likehe's done a hundred times before
, and then we're going to havetheir money and it'll be a big
joke on the Jews and then we'llcontinue on and when it actually
happens, the reality of thatdeception sets in, and so I
think it all comes down todeception, and I think that's
why, too, all comes down todeception, and I think that's

(07:10):
why, too, that Satan is calledthe father of lies, the deceiver
that sin begins with deception.

Speaker 1 (07:16):
One of the things that Paul will tell us in the
book of Romans is that all of ushave sinned, that.
It's not like we have anacademic idea of what sin is.
We understand sin because we'reall participants and it's
something that we've done.
If all of us have done it, ifthe first man and the first

(07:44):
woman instigated, it is sin areally big deal or not, it seems
pretty common.

Speaker 2 (07:50):
Well, again, I think that's Satan at work.
Huh, how many times do you hearsomeone say and maybe they are
truly in a moment exercisingpiety, and they're truly humbly
saying I'm just a sinner.
Yeah, that's right.
And they're truly humbly sayingI'm just a sinner.

Speaker 1 (08:07):
Yeah, that's right.

Speaker 2 (08:11):
And we all are, and we all are Right.
But that phraseology has becomeso commonplace.
We just accept the fact thatI'm a sinner and therefore I
don't try not to.
It's going to happen anyway.
It was the big deal.
It's kind of like us when wemake a New Year's resolution to
diet and then by January the 5thwe've blown it Well, because I

(08:35):
messed up one time.
Oh it's all blown, now Nothingmatters, and then I go on the
rest of the year not dietingbecause I blew it by January the
5th, I think sometimes with sin, it's the same idea that well,
because I'm going to sin again,then I'm just going to accept
that I'm a sin and when we dothat we take away the
seriousness of it, that it is abig deal, that every sin is a

(09:01):
stripe on Jesus' back that I put.
There is a stripe on Jesus'back that I put there.
I think if we had real-timeconsequences for every sin that
I committed, I got punched inthe face Right.
If there was an immediate pow,oh, I would probably sin a lot
less.
But because our consequencesare often not immediate, they're

(09:25):
delayed, maybe even to the endof my life.
Maybe no one ever finds outthat I did this sin or whatever.
But God knows.
And if I have desensitizedmyself to the seriousness of it
to realize that it is a big deal, well then, why repent?
It's not a big deal.

(09:47):
Well then, why repent?
It's not a big deal.
And then you find yourselflulled into this complacency and
I think that's where Jesusaddresses the church and
Laodicea that they're lukewarm.
It's like they really have noopinion.
They just well, everybody sins,come on, what's the big deal?

Speaker 1 (10:05):
I agree it's a big deal, but why is it?
I mean, you just basicallyargued for this, which is
everybody does it.
Yeah, Nobody is too worriedabout any kind of consequences,
because all of us bear the guiltof those consequences.

Speaker 2 (10:19):
Well, because the consequences exist, whether we
are aware of them or not.
That's what I'm saying.
I think we've been lulled intothis sort of half-asleep,
half-awake lifestyle where we'renot really awake to that
because there isn't an immediateconsequence often enough, and

(10:42):
because of that we don'tactually think there's not going
to be a consequence.
And what a rude awakeningthat'll be on the day when Jesus
says depart from me, I neverknew you.
That's the reality.
When he says in Revelation,liars, cowards, the detestable,
I mean we don't think that'sgoing to happen.
I think that we have allowedSatan and the influence of

(11:03):
culture, even within the church,to dumb us down enough to
believe that it's not going tohappen.
That's the big deal is that weare blind.
That's not what Jesus says, andso it is a big deal.
I think what the reality is isthat we're just asleep to that,

(11:29):
we're just not paying attention.

Speaker 1 (11:32):
I think one of the things that happens to us
because it is so commonplace,because it happens every day,
because nobody's too worriedabout it one of the things that
we're not recognizing is whatwe're missing because we are
participating in sin we couldtalk about sexual sins, for
example and what you gain isimmediate gratification.

(11:54):
I mean, you get what you wantwhen you want it, that's right,
but what you're sacrificing arethings like an intimate,
long-term relationship, a family.
Yeah, like an intimate,long-term relationship, a family
.
You're sacrificing things thatare of infinitely more worth and
, ultimately, if you sacrificethose things long enough, if you

(12:15):
sacrifice those things deeplyenough, and if you come to
embrace the compromises, youwill get rid of any opportunity
to have anything that's perfect.
You see what I'm saying?

Speaker 2 (12:26):
Totally.
Yeah, I think that's.
The deception is that we tradewillingly fillets for
cheeseburgers.
You know what I'm?

Speaker 1 (12:37):
saying Don't knock cheeseburgers man.

Speaker 2 (12:41):
Listen, I love a good cheeseburger, but if someone
says, listen, you can have acheeseburger in two hours or you
can have a filet in two hours,you can have this cheeseburger
right now.
We often take the cheeseburgerright now, right, and because it
tastes good right now, it'sfilling right now and I don't
think about the long termconsequences.
It's going to show up on me bythe end of the week.

(13:02):
You know, I don't think aboutthose long-term consequences, I
just think about right now.
And so I think that that's whywe don't realize how big of a
deal sin is, because we don'tsee it right away.
I got what I wanted and I'msatisfied for now, until I'm not
again, and then I have to do itagain.
I've been beat up on by someother preachers about being a

(13:26):
fluff guy, because I preach onthe grace of God and the
forgiveness of God, and I'lljust tell you I mean the love of
God.
If you're someone that thinksthat grace is a fluffy subject,
you need to go back and restudythe subject of grace Because of
this.
What we're talking about that'swhat makes grace such a big
deal is because sin is soegregious.

(13:48):
It is such a big deal, and thereason why, the good news is not
the good news, it's the bestnews, right, because I don't
have to go to hell if I havethis relationship with God, and
that if I'm not willfullysinning against God, you know,
look at the passage we often goto, and in Hebrews 10, he that

(14:11):
willfully sins against Godcrucifies him afresh.
And so we, we, we, we don'trealize.
That's why it's a big deal,because it is, people are going
to go to hell.
That's just the reality.
There are people and there aremembers of the churches of
Christ that are going to go tohell.

(14:33):
Yeah, and I don't say that tobe controversial, I'm just being
real If you study grace enough,and you study forgiveness
enough, and you study the loveof God enough, this reality
becomes even more prominent.

Speaker 1 (14:48):
I think that, especially with this
conversation, I need to set upthe problem, Because I think one
of the things that we get toocomfortable with is the
sinfulness in our own lives.
It's that idea that we're goingto yeah, I know it's wrong, but
, and whatever happens afterthat, but it's the justification

(15:09):
for why sin is not a big dealand we all know what happens
after that.
But we've all had that.
We have provided that thosephrases, because we're all
sinners, every single one of us,and I know how to answer those
as well, because I've had tojustify my sin, All of us do.

(15:33):
But why is it a big deal thatI'm justifying it?
Why isn't God just kind of onboard at this point?
Because he's recognized we keepon justifying the sin.
Why hasn't he just said youknow what?
I know that sin is a big dealto you.
I'm just let's drop this sinthing, let's.
Just because none of you haddone very well with it.

(15:53):
It's kind of like you know,giving your kids chores and the
kids don't do the chores verywell, and so you just drop the
chore chart.

Speaker 2 (16:00):
You see what I'm saying I do, and you know what I
chart.
You see what I'm saying I doand you know what I think it's
because he's a holy God and whenwe really understand holiness,
holiness is a topic that doesn'tget the attention that it
should.
I think we focus on so manydifferent aspects of our

(16:21):
Christian walk, whether it's ourfellowship with God, or Jesus
and his completed work on thecross, or discipleship or
whatever.
There's a lot of things wefocus on, but holiness often
falls to the wayside.
For this reason, it's hardbecause of the reality that it
imposes if god is holy, thennothing else is yeah, and we

(16:47):
have to look at so okay, pretend, this microphone thing, this is
God.
So everything in this circle,this is God, this is holy, this
is justice, right, everythingoutside the circle is
non-justice.
So, God's justice, this isnon-justice.
So, god's justice, this isnon-justice.
Now split that non-justice inhalf and you've got non-justice

(17:10):
and you've got injustice.
Injustice is evil, injustice issin.
Injustice is what we're talkingabout.
Grace is a non-justice, graceis a non-justice, that when God
extends to us mercy, it's anit's it's it go, it's it's we

(17:31):
deserve.
Yeah.
Because we're out here, wedeserve justice, and justice for
us is death, but because we'reextended grace, it's a
non-justice that God extends tous because of our injustice.
Right, right it's a big dealbecause of that.
When you look at what it costsGod to extend to us a

(17:52):
non-justice, look at the cost.
It's like you never really takefor granted, or maybe a better
way to word it you often takefor granted that which you
haven't fully appreciated ortrusted in.
If you're a kid and your dadgives you $5 every day for candy

(18:17):
, you take for granted that $5is coming.
But when you understand thatthat $5 is all he has and he
gives it to you every day, thenit becomes more valuable and I
don't think that we appreciatewhat it costs God to extend to
us non-justice.
And so I think, because of ofwe don't talk about holiness

(18:41):
enough.
It makes this idea of sininconsequential.
I think that's really the, the,the crux of it.
We find ourselves thinking ofsin as inconsequential when it
in reality the, the consequencesare are huge yeah, I don't know
that's that's one.

Speaker 1 (18:58):
That's one thought I think, if you, if you think of
sin as a separator, eventually,I mean and we talked about
sexual sin and what what itseparates you from sexual
separates you from things thatare more meaningful it can.
It can sexual sin, will, will,will basically remove you,
remove you from intimacy, whichyou and I both know that sexual

(19:25):
sex is great, but, but, butthere's, there's something
that's yeah, but but there'ssomething that's, quite frankly,
more important to me at thispoint, and that's the intimacy
that I have with my wife.
There's an intimacy there thatis more important, frankly.
That's right, that's part of it.

Speaker 2 (19:42):
Yeah, I mean.
What's it worth to be able tolook her in the eyes and not
look away, because you'reashamed of yourself?
That's intimacy, that'sintimacy.
That's intimacy being able totruly reveal yourself, not this,
this, that's right.
I'm going to let you see me,right, and so you're going to

(20:03):
look right into my eyes and seeexactly who I am.
Well, when we have that sexualsin present, that's the last
thing we want to do it's aseparator.
It's a barrier and yeah, Idon't want to trade that for
anything.

Speaker 1 (20:21):
Neither do I.
And when you think about whatsin does with our relationship
with God, it is that separator.
There's obviously aninauthenticity that comes with
it, but also that God himselfhas defined the rules of the
relationship, and nowhere inthat relationship has he said

(20:42):
you know what I want to let youkeep on sinning, because sinning
is basically violating a morallaw that God has given us.
And I'm not using moral law assome kind of separator there,
because I think the law that Godgives us is moral.
I think that's kind of thetenor and tone of that.
But if you decide that I wantsin to be a part of this

(21:05):
relationship, god can no longerbe a part of that relationship
anymore.
Do you see what I'm saying here?

Speaker 2 (21:12):
I do, I do, I think that's what makes us I hope it
makes us see again what it costsGod to reach down and have a
relationship with us.
It took the death of his son Isaid this in my sermon Sunday

(21:33):
one of those Christian paradoxesTo reach down and have a
relationship with us.
It took the death of his son Isaid this in my sermon Sunday.
One of those Christianparadoxes the worst sin ever
committed on this planet was themurder of God's son.
The best thing that everhappened on this planet was the
death of God's son.
Yeah.
And what you realize is thatwhere those two ideas cross,

(21:57):
this paradox, where those twoideas cross, is the cost that
the worst thing became the bestthing.
And so I think that's where wehave to get to see that, to
understand how big of a deal sinis, we have to see the cost.
When my kids both becameChristians, I showed them the
Passion of the Christ.

(22:17):
It's a hard movie to watch.
I still can't watch it and notcry my eyes out because as a
sinner who has sinned man, I getemotional talking about it.
But that's me, that's what Idid.
I did that, and so when youhave a visualization of the cost
of sin, then you see the bigdeal.

(22:40):
The trouble is is we don't oftensee that when we partake of the
Lord's Supper on Sundays, weare commanded to remember.
Remember what we weren't there,we didn't see it.
All we have is a visualizationin our mind of what it must have
been like.
But when you have somethinglike the passion of the Christ

(23:02):
or the chosen, you get avisualization of the humanity of
Jesus.
He was both God and man at thesame time.
Speaking of the chosen, Iforget what episode it is.
He's talking to one of thedisciples I can't remember which
one.
They're talking about theimpending crucifixion.

(23:23):
Jesus quotes from Isaiah.
He goes but those were justwords.
Now you're here, you're real,and so until it becomes real to
us, until Jesus becomes real,it's just words on paper and I

(23:46):
think we have to get past thepaper to see the big deal and to
see why it matters.
It's because God's holy that itmatters, because there was a
cost, because of His holiness.
That makes it matter.

Speaker 1 (24:01):
The holiness of God is a hard thing for us to
contend with because we justaren't holy and that comes as a
result of choices we've made.
And that comes as a result ofchoices we've made.
And one of the other things wehaven't really talked much about
is sin.
When you start laying it bare,it's, in my opinion and you're
welcome to disagree with thisit's selfishness.

(24:22):
That really where sinoriginates and kind of ends, is
me that I'm getting out of this,what I want and really what I.
I said that sin is a separatorand I think it is a separator.
The natural consequence of usdoing exactly what we want is we

(24:43):
end up making things good forus and nobody else.
But that comes at a price, andthe the natural price of
selfishness is nobody elsebenefits and you don't know this
about yourself yet, but if youget everything you want, you
will be miserable.

(25:04):
Oh, yeah.
You see what I'm saying.

Speaker 2 (25:06):
Yeah, when you see a child that's spoiled, they're
not happy, right, they'remiserable.
They've gotten everythingthey've ever wanted and they
can't be satisfied.
Without satisfaction, there'sno peace.
You can't be happy.
I think it is the selfishnessthat drives sin of any kind.
When a man gives in to thetemptation to use pornography.

(25:30):
Sin of any kind when a mangives in to the temptation to
use pornography.
It's 100% selfish.
I deal with a lot of peoplewith this issue, not to say that
I didn't have my own issue withit years ago, but the thought
process and something alwaysgets said.
I wasn't trying to hurt anybody, nobody was supposed to get
hurt, but someone always getshurt, whether it's your spouse

(25:55):
that gets hurt, the betrayalthat it creates, yeah.
It's spiritual suicide.
You're sticking a shotgun toyour chest with giving into the
temptation to view pornography.
What about the people in thevideo?
Yeah.
You're contributing to thedeath of those people.
You didn't think you were goingto hurt anybody and look at

(26:17):
this trail of destruction youleave behind you Again.
That's why sin is a big deal.
You don't think it hurtsanybody, but it hurts everybody.

Speaker 1 (26:27):
I agree with that.
It probably hurts you the mostthough.
Oh yeah, body, but it hurtseverybody.
I agree with that.
It probably hurts you the most,though.
The thing about sin is we get.
I'm somebody who is a lowcarber and I have been for years
.
One of the things that I thinkis an absolute evil is sugar.
I think it tastes great, but Idon't think there's any benefit
to eating sugar, and to methat's a really great way to

(26:53):
think about sin, and I realize Iwasn't anticipating I would be
talking about sugar and sin.
But they're empty calories.
They don't treat any part ofyour body well.
They don't help you at anystage.
They just taste good.
Sugar just tastes good, and itmakes things palatable, but it

(27:14):
doesn't make things beneficial.

Speaker 2 (27:17):
You know the funny thing too I'm a low-carber
myself, and a lifelong yo-yodieter right, the days of my
youth whenever I was justshredded body and I could eat
whatever I wanted to and nothingaffected me.
You know those days are longgone.
I, you know you hit 25, 26 andyou, you start seeing those

(27:39):
things in the review more andmore.
Yeah.
Here's the thing.
So I I'll, I'll go a stretchwithout having sugar of any kind
, sometimes three months.
I'm in the midst of one rightnow.
You know, I'm down a few poundsand I feel really good about
myself, you know, and you wantto maintain that, you want to
hold that.
So Friday night we got togetherwith some friends and watched a

(28:01):
movie and they did a candysalad.
That's kind of the popularthing to do right now is
everybody brings a differentkind of candy and everybody puts
it in the bowl.
And you know, and I had mysugar-free stuff ready to eat,
but man, that bowl was sotempting and so I did.

Speaker 1 (28:17):
I reached in there and I got a handful that's all.

Speaker 2 (28:19):
It was just a handful it wasn't like I.
I made myself a bowl, I I justgot some, a few.
It made me so sick.
It made me so sick and so yourealize what it does to your
body when your body hadn't hadit in a while.

(28:40):
It makes you sick.
It's bad for you even a littlebit.
That's a great analogy.
Sin is sugar 100%.
There's no nutritional benefit,and when you go long enough
without it, you realize how badit is for you.

Speaker 1 (28:57):
Well, I wasn't anticipating this becoming a
low-carb podcast, but I thinkone of the things that I do
recognize is that some of theparallels include we celebrate
with sugar while we celebratewith sin.
I mean it's.
I mean vegas has made areputation off being a place

(29:18):
that is called sin city, and forgood reason, I mean.
It basically caters to all thevices that anybody has an
interest in, and so I I think, Ithink one of the things that
that that we recognize is thatwe have often seen sin as
something that is rewarding, butI don't think any of us would
call that reward a virtue.
Yeah, we know that in the endit's bad, we know that in the

(29:41):
end it's not good for us, andyet it's all tempting to us.
If it wasn't tempting, nobodywould do it.
Tempting to us.
If it wasn't tempting, nobodywould do it.
So I mean again, I guess itcomes back to that idea of sin
management that I don't want toeradicate it because there's too
many fun parts about it, and soI'm just not going to have that

(30:02):
much of it.
I'm just going to do a littlebit of just on my birthday, just
you know, and and just on aspecial occasion I'm going to, I
want to take part in, in thisbecause, hey, I, I deserve this
I've been really good.

Speaker 2 (30:18):
Say that again.
I deserve this.
Yeah, think about that for asecond.
That's right.
Oh man, I deserve this, andwhat we actually deserve is
death.

Speaker 1 (30:32):
And we don't think of it that way.

Speaker 2 (30:34):
We think of us deserving the pleasure that the
sin brings, whatever it is,whether it's food or whatever.
And yet it's the death, it'sthe consequence that we deserve.
Man, that's heavy, kenny,that's heavy.

Speaker 1 (30:53):
Man, that's heavy, kenny, that's heavy
no-transcript, and so we treatthat one with a lot of reverence

(31:19):
because we can't get around it.
It's the moral laws that wefeel like.
You know, those are the onesthat we probably have some
flexibility with.
Being good doesn't mean wealways have to be good.
As a matter of fact, there aresome times when we probably
ought to be bad.

Speaker 2 (31:32):
I think we use a faulty gauge.
Well, I'm not doing thosethings, I'm not as bad as that
guy.
I didn't kill anybody, right, Ididn't kill anybody when I did
that.
Nobody got hurt when I did thatof got hurt when I did that.
And we have this faulty gaugesystem where we think well, it's

(31:53):
not as bad as others, becausemurder is not the same thing as
a white lie, but it is.
It's not inconsequential and Ithink we have that faulty gauge
in our mind where we do Justlike you said we justify.

Speaker 1 (32:10):
And we're awfully comfortable with the
justifications.
Again, every time we've sinned,we can start off with I know
it's wrong, but and it's thatphrase that comes after the but
that we've all filled in before.
I mean, all of us have come upwith a justification before we
know why doing the wrong thingis the right thing to do.

(32:32):
Again, not really the rightthing, just the thing that we've
chosen.
You're going to say something.

Speaker 2 (32:38):
Well, I keep thinking about the example where Jesus
is talking about theself-righteous man that is
judging the unrighteous man.
The unrighteous man says bemerciful to me, a sinner, Right?
I think sometimes, far toooften, we are the other guy.
We're not as bad as them, soour sin isn't as bad.

(33:01):
We're not doing what they'redoing.
You see this a lot in thepolitical realm this time of
year.
We are in the midst of it,where you've got finger pointing
from other side and listen.
It's really easy to get caughtup in that, especially whenever
you see people, maybe from theopposing party, saying they're
coming from a place of moralitywe're voting this way because of

(33:23):
morality and you look at thethings that they support, you're
like, well, none of that'smoral.
And so what happens is is youdemonize them because their idea
of morality is different thanyours.
But even your idea of moralityis skewed because you're not
putting yourself in the samecategory.
Yeah, I don't support abortion,but because I don't recognize my

(33:45):
own flaws, I just see theirs,and so I think well, yeah, you
support abortion.
So what?
That is just as sinful as thethings that I do and justify
it's a faulty gauge system Ithink Paul talks about on 2
Corinthians when he talks aboutyou know, you judge yourselves
by yourselves and in doing soyou err.

Speaker 1 (34:07):
And in doing so, you err.
That's right.
We don't like comparingourselves to Jesus very much
because we always fare poorly inthe comparison, and that's
really the only standard thatmakes really any sense.
We have gotten so good at thesin game.

Speaker 2 (34:29):
Is it possible for us to live sinlessly?
I wish this was a one wordanswer, but it's not.
It can be done, right.
Yeah.
I often hear things like oh well, I sin every day, but you don't
have to.
It's not like there aren'tother options.
You can go through the wholeday and not sin.
You can go all week and not sin.

(34:52):
You could go all month and notsin.
It's not impossible, it's hard.
And so, because it's hard andbecause I think human beings
have a weaker disposition inregards to the flesh, have a
weaker disposition in regards tothe flesh.
Paul in Romans, chapter seven,when he's going through the.

(35:15):
You know the, the things Idon't want to do is what I keep
on doing, you know, and the evilthat I don't want to do you
know, I do it, you know.
And he goes this wholepresentation of his failure as a
, as a man, because he says youknow, wretched man, that I am
not wretched man, that I used tobe not wretched man, that I
once was wretched man, that I amthis morning.

(35:36):
Who will save me, who willdeliver me from this body of
death?
And so you go through thiswhole thing where even the
Apostle Paul fell prey to sin.
Because the reason that examplein Romans, chapter 7, is so
powerful is because it's in thefirst person.

(35:56):
Paul is saying this is mystruggle, the things that I
don't want to do is what I do.
And he talks about thiswrestling and warring.
He says in my mind, I delightin the law of God, but in my
body I wage war against themembers of my body.
Now you can fill in the blankwith whatever you think that is.

(36:16):
He's at war within himself.
The mind and the heart and thebody are not in sync.
And so Paul's at war with sin.
He knows in his mind I delightin the law of God.
In my mind, he says with sin.
He knows in his mind I delightin the law of God.
In my mind he says, but in mybody I wage war against myself

(36:38):
essentially.
And so I think sometimes we lookat when Peter repeats from
Exodus, 19, 20, 21 in his letter.
Whatever he repeats from thatletter, saying be holy as I am
holy.
Talking about when Moses wasgiven the law of the people, god
expected his people to be holy.
It's not a part where we think,well, man, that's impossible.
Even Paul wasn't holy.

(37:00):
And again this goes back tosanctification and grace and
forgiveness and the things thatwere supposed to be off limits
for this podcast grace andforgiveness and the things that
were supposed to be off limitsfor this podcast.
But the truth is, I think, inour mind, because we recognize
that even the Apostle Paul, theguy that wrote half the New

(37:21):
Testament, wrestled with sin,and the whole crux of that
passage in Romans, chapter 7, isthat I fight and sometimes I
win and sometimes I don't.
Yeah.
And it's more often that I don't.
I think we see that and we gookay, well, it's okay if I don't
.
You know, and and again,paradoxical uh statement here uh

(37:43):
, if you're in a relationshipwith God, you do have the avenue
of repentance and grace isthere and forgiveness is present
.
But that doesn't mean weshouldn't try.
I think that's where we getstuck.
We look and see well, paulwasn't holy.

(38:06):
Right.
But it doesn't mean he didn'ttry.
The fact that he talks about awar being waged between his body
and mind tells us that he wastrying, he was fighting.
He just doesn't always win.
And I think we take a statementthat says, well, could I be
sinless?
And we go oh no, we can't.

(38:27):
But I think the truth is wecould, Maybe not forever, but I
mean you can get really good atanything you try to do.
I just don't know if we havethe conditioning to do so in
this day and age.
Not that we have it any worsethan any other day and age,

(38:51):
right.
But I do think that becausewe've desensitized ourselves to
it, we've justified so much ofit, we just don't have the
fortitude.
It's possible, but I don'tthink it's probable.

Speaker 1 (39:06):
Is it possible to be faithful to your wife?
Absolutely, I think it'sprobable.
Is it possible to be faithfulto your wife?
Absolutely, I think so too.
Does that mean that peopledon't stray?

Speaker 2 (39:17):
Absolutely not.
They stray all the time yeah.

Speaker 1 (39:21):
I think one of the things that happens to us is we
think we are victims to ourcircumstances.
But if you marry the rightwoman, she might be very
forgiving, but that doesn't meanyou get to just do whatever you
want to in your relationship.
And I think that the mostimportant thing you brought up

(39:42):
there was the relationship thatwe have with God.
Will God forgive us as manytimes as we ask to be forgiven?
Yes, he will, but what does therelationship with God look like
and how strong is thatrelationship?
And that relationship only getsbetter when you take it
seriously.

Speaker 2 (40:01):
Here's the thing, using your example People are
unfaithful in marriages.
It happens all the time, butit's not going to happen too
much in the same marriage.
You might get away with it onetime, like you may be, you may
repent and reconciled and yourspouse takes you back.

(40:22):
Right, you know, but that'sthat's it.
Not very many more would put upwith a second offense Right,
that's right.
Let alone a third, right, it'slike you kind of get one shot at
that and it's always there.
The reality of that infractionis always there, because you've

(40:45):
taken this vessel and you'veshattered it, and, yeah, you can
put it all back together, butit's still cracked.
The scar will always remain.
Can you get past it?
Sure, could it make you evenstronger?
Possibly, will she put up withit a second time?
Or will he put up with a secondtime?
Not likely With God, who, Ithink, understands the principle

(41:10):
of adultery better than anybody.
Because isn't that what sin is?
It is we choose some other Godover Him, whether it's myself,
my sin, whatever, you can fillin your blank with your idol,
but when I choose anything overHim, it's sin.
And so God understands adulterybetter than anybody.

(41:31):
With him it's different.
Maybe we're too comfortablewith that.
Yeah.
Again, because the consequencesaren't immediate.
You know, if a man or a womanis unfaithful to their spouse
one time, they may get over it.
The second time there's goingto be an immediate consequence
Get out, move out, go.

(41:52):
There's an immediateconsequence to it and with God
it's all delayed.
And I think, because it's outof sight, it's out of mind.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (42:04):
One of the saddest stories I can think of in the
Old Testament is Hosea.
He marries a woman that Godtells him to marry, who's a
prostitute.
Yeah.
And he has three children.
Horrible names.
Yeah, the last one is namedLoami and basically it means

(42:26):
this is not my child, Not my kid.
Yeah, well, I think.
Literally means not my people.

Speaker 2 (42:33):
And that was probably the truth.

Speaker 1 (42:35):
Probably the truth for all of them, I mean.
The fact is that he marriedsomebody.
The heartbreak of that story isit's somebody that Hosea wanted
to be faithful and kept onbringing back and kept on
forgiving and kept on him beingfaithful and being married to

(42:56):
somebody who would not befaithful.

Speaker 2 (42:59):
And think about again .
This is me coming back to thecost.
Yeah, in that famous chapterwhere God says, go get her.
Yeah, I mean that's God tellinghim to go If you've read
anything about prostitution inthat day and age and the people

(43:20):
that Gomer, that she would havecome from, she was from a
different people and theirparticular people were known for
prostitution.
They were known for that Um andum and so this was, this was
second nature to her and Hoseahad pulled Gomer out of that,

(43:41):
probably the first time she hadever felt real love.
Probably the first time she'dbeen treated.
Maybe Uh well, who knows?
But because it's what she knowsshe'd been treated.
Maybe Well, who knows?
But because it's what she knows, she goes back to it and that's
kind of like us with sin right,we come into the relationship
with Christ, we feel real lovefor the first time.
We're treated better.

(44:02):
We still go back to what we'reused to, right?
So Hosea obeys God and he goes.
And when you think about wherehe has to go, prostitutes
weren't on your main streetvillage, they were in back

(44:22):
alleys, they were in slums, theywere in the parts of town that
righteous men don't go to.
Men of God don't go to theseparts of town and that's where
he has to go to get her.
And another thing that I'veread about and now this could be
supposition, so take this forwhat it's worth, but from what I

(44:45):
understand, in that day and ageshe would be there with her
handler.
I understand in that day andage she would be there with her
handler and he would haveliterally have a chain attached
to her Right and when theexchange is made he hands you
the chain and he takes thepayment while you go and fulfill

(45:08):
the contract, and then youbring her back and you hand him
back the chain and thetransaction's over, and more
often than not they werecompletely nude standing there.
So now put yourself in Hosea'sshoes.
You're a godly man who has a gowhere godly men don't go, and
you see your wife undressed.

(45:33):
Yeah.
In public, in chains, and youhave to walk up to this man and
say excuse me, sir, that's mywife.
And the man says I don't care,this is how much she cost.
And so you have to pay for whatyou already own.
That's your wife and you pay it.

(45:59):
You pay it.
You say how much?
How much does it cost?
And you pay it.
The world belongs to God andall they're in we're already His
, and he has to buy us back.
And you think about the costassociated with that.

(46:20):
You think about the cost, likeHosea having to buy back his own
wife in these horrible placeswhere godly men don't go, he
goes and he pays for what'salready his.
And that's what happens everytime we sin.
Every time we sin, jesus has tocome to where he shouldn't be

(46:46):
and buy us back.
Man, if that doesn't at leastmotivate you to try, I don't
know what will.
Right, can you imagine theexchange when Gomer sees her
husband?
He sees her, and there's thismoment of eyes locking.

(47:06):
I can't, man.
I can't it.
I cry, I can't, it's too much.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (47:16):
Santa is ugly and it does some really terrible things
to all of us.
We just don't recognize it asterrible because it's so common,
and that's that's a.
Literally, that's a shame to us.
It is, and when you think whata sin-free existence would look

(47:38):
like, I mean, basically, god isgiving us the ability to escape
the consequences of sin Not all,I'm not talking about physical
consequences to escape theconsequences of sin, Uh, not all
.
I'm not talking about physicalconsequences, but I am talking
about the eternal consequencesof sin, and that that's that's a

(48:00):
.
That's a really cool thing.
But don't lose for a momentthat when you send, you are
separating yourself by choice,that you are doing much less
than you can and you are makingsomething worse that doesn't
have to be bad at all.
Yeah, you're taking somethingthat could be good and you're

(48:24):
introducing something bad,something evil.
Yeah, does that make sense,total sense.
Yeah, does that make sense,total sense.
Yeah, it doesn't take muchpoison to make something deadly.

Speaker 2 (48:37):
That's right it just takes a little so anyway, that's
the old adage, right?
How much poison do you have todrink before you don't want to
drink any?

Speaker 1 (48:49):
Well, the answer is none.

Speaker 2 (48:50):
I don't want to drink any of it, right, but we do.

Speaker 1 (48:53):
Yeah, we drink the poison, that's right, okay, what
have we missed about sin?

Speaker 2 (49:03):
Well, we've talked about, I think, its origin.
You know, with deception andselfishness.
I think we've talked about thecost.
If there's any light to be hadin this, it is the fact that we
don't have to be lost.
That's another paradox in andof itself.
The worst thing that everhappened was the murder of God's

(49:24):
Son.
The best thing that's everhappened is the death of God's
Son.
That sin was carried out by thehands of His creation, but it
was the will of the Creator thatwe could be saved, right.
I think about Joel 2, when Peterquotes from that on Pentecost.

(49:45):
But he says Yet, even now,return to me with all your heart
, with fasting, weeping andwailing.
But he says even now.
And so if you just take thatverse by itself, even now, in

(50:18):
the mess you're in, god can takethe worst and make the best.
Return to me, weeping andwailing, repenting.
And I love verse 13 because itsays Rend your heart, not your
garments.
Tear your heart, I don't careabout your mask.
God didn't come and die for ourmask.

(50:41):
He came and died for us, andwho we are is in the heart.
He says don't tear your clothes, I don't care about that.
Give me your heart Right andreturn to me because I'm
compassionate and I'm gracious,and I think that when we realize
the egregiousness of sin,because of its cost, because of

(51:05):
what it does in our separationfrom God, the fact that this is
even on the table, the fact thatthis is even on the table,
allah tells something about itthat obviously, sin is not too

(51:25):
powerful for God to save us from, but it is powerful enough to
separate us eternally if wedon't repent Right, which all
points back to Jesus, obviously,because without Jesus,
repentance is even an option.
And so if there's anything thatwe haven't covered, it's just
that Nothing is insurmountablein regards to our sin.

Speaker 1 (51:53):
I've asked you to do the thankless here, keith, which
is I'm asking a preacher totalk only about the bad side of
something.

Speaker 2 (52:02):
Well, but it needs to be talked about though.
It does need to be talked aboutbecause of how serious it is.
People need to know it's a bigdeal.
I think sometimes we get alltoo caught up in making
Christianity about us, and it'snot Whether there's a heaven or

(52:27):
not.
God deserves worship, goddeserves praise, he deserves my
obedience, whether I getanything or not.
And I think sometimes we getcaught up in making it about us.
And so, yeah, we do take thefluffy side of grace and the
fluffy side of love andforgiveness and we make it all
about us and we neglectcompletely the cost.
We look at that and we go yeah,god's gracious and

(52:50):
compassionate, at what cost?
When we don't understand thevalue of what's been given, then
it is about us.
We become that spoiled childthat we were talking about.
That's never really happy.

Speaker 1 (53:08):
The reason I want to have this conversation and
really I don't want to talkabout forgiveness it's because
we have gotten me too I mean,I'm not saying anything that I
haven't had the same problemwith is I just don't have a very
good idea what sin looks like,how bad sin is.
Yes, Because it's so common tome and it's so common to all of

(53:29):
us that we, since we don't thinkabout it that way and since the
preacher is so quick to talkabout the solution, I don't
really we don't really dwell onthe problem very much, and I
think it's important to thinkabout what the problem is,
because the problem is biggerthan you are and you can't fix

(53:50):
it.

Speaker 2 (53:52):
Yeah, absolutely yeah .
It's hard to not want to go toredemption and all this, but the
truth is I'm pretty sure thatwe're all familiar with that.
I'm pretty sure we all know wecan be saved, right?
I think the trouble is isbecause we know that we don't
really let it change us.

(54:12):
We want to be free from theconsequences of sin Right, but
what about being free from sin?
Right?
That's a whole otherconversation, because and I
think that's what we're talkingabout I want to be free from sin
, that's right.
Yes, I want to be free from theconsequences of my sin, like
everybody else, but I wouldreally like to be able to just

(54:36):
let it all go, for as much workas I may put towards not sinning
.
When you find yourself there,there's the disappointment,
there's the disgust withyourself, there's all these
things that you go through, andI would love to be free from all
that.
I would love to never have toopen that box again and unpack

(55:00):
all that stuff, because it isexhausting.
It'd be so much easier to justnot sin.

Speaker 1 (55:10):
It would be so much easier to be in a marriage that
had no problems.

Speaker 2 (55:15):
Oh man, my wife would say, yes.
Well, you would too, to be in amarriage with me, without all
the problems that I bring.

Speaker 1 (55:27):
Again when you're able to take sin out of the
equation, the sin is the problem.
I mean again going back to God,our relationship with God.
The problem between you and Godis sin.
That's the problem.
What happens if you take sinaway and then there are no more
problems anymore?
But, the more you keep onreintroducing Zen, the more

(55:51):
problems you have.

Speaker 2 (55:53):
And I wonder if maybe we changed the way we looked at
it, that when Eve was temptedby Satan and she took the fruit,
she declared war on God.
She saw something that wouldkill her as good.
You know, I think that's wherepeople are.

Speaker 1 (56:20):
That's the justification for it.
We see something that will killus as good.
I think what she would say andI think we would.
I've seen this in many placeswhere we talk about we are
emancipated, that we that wehave basically freed ourselves
from the, the bondage ofsomebody else or somebody else's
expectations.
And the fact is you yes, thatthat is exactly right.
You wanted yeah, satan did lie,but he didn't lie about what

(56:59):
that would.
It gave them the knowledge ofgood and evil.
They got exactly what theyasked for, and the problem is
they didn't understand theconsequences of what they were
asking for.
Oh yeah, it's kind of like thechildren of Israel asking for a
king and they got one, and theygot exactly the problems that
God said that they would havewith a king.

Speaker 2 (57:17):
Boy did they.

Speaker 1 (57:18):
Yeah, they did so anyway.
Well, keith, again, I'm sorrythat this is a glum topic, but I
think it's an important topic.

Speaker 2 (57:26):
It's a necessary topic.
I think it needs to be talkedabout and I hope that it gets
some traction.
I think that needs to be heardand obviously I don't have all
the answers and I know you wouldsay the same thing, but if we
could get a conversation startedabout this and really kind of
bring it to mind, it's easy topoint out other people's sins

(57:50):
while completely ignoring ourown, yes, and so if we could
start having a conversationabout the egregiousness of my
sin and I could invite you tohate my sin and you could invite
me to hate yours, maybe wecould be, at at some point,

(58:11):
sinless yeah.
Maybe, Maybe it's possible.
Like I said, I would listen.
The Bible class answer is yes,you can be sinless, right, but
that only works in Bible class,because that's what the teacher
wants to hear.
Yeah, you and I both know weget home because that's what the
teacher wants to hear.
Yeah, you and I both know weget home and you look at the man

(58:33):
in the mirror and there'sprobably something else there,
and so we can start having aconversation about hating my own
sin and inviting other peopleto hate my sin too, and just
having that raw sort of honestyabout it.
Maybe we could do something.

Speaker 1 (58:51):
I think we could, I think we've talked many times.
Yeah, we've talked aboutvulnerability before and the
importance of vulnerability, andI think that's exactly right.
Satan likes things hidden, yeah, and when they're hidden in
shame, then he gets exactly whathe wants, because for some

(59:14):
reason, now you feel like youwere defined by that thing.
Yeah.
You're defined by the thing thatmakes you shameful, and that's
just not a good place to be.
All right, it's a depressingtopic, but I always end my
podcast with be good and do good.
What's good about recognizingour own sin?

Speaker 2 (59:36):
at the risk of sounding cliche in the realm of
addiction, acknowledging youhave a problem is the first step
towards recovery.
Yeah.
It's become very popular to saywell, I'm just a sinner, we
discussed that, yeah, but it'sone thing to acknowledge that in

(59:57):
a way that gets you attention.
Mm-hmm.
Can you say that in a privateroom with no one around?
Yeah.
And mean it.
Lord, be merciful to me, asinner.
I think that's the benefit ofknowing is that if I know, then
I can do something, being ableto share that with others after

(01:00:20):
we've truly accepted our dilemma.
Because here's the truth If Ican't look at myself in the
mirror and say, if I don't stopthis, I'm going to hell no one
wants to think they're going tohell, but it's a reality that
many people will face, you know,and I think that the first step
to not going there is admittingthat I'm on the way there and I

(01:00:43):
need to change directions.
And so I think if there's anybenefit to knowing, that's it.
Yeah.
I agree.
Keith been too long, my friend.
No doubt, dude, we reallyshould do this more.
I mean, I was glad that you andI got to sit face to face and

(01:01:06):
do this back in January.
I'm glad to see you, my friend.
I'm glad you're doing well.

Speaker 1 (01:01:12):
Same here.
I think we'll probably talksooner than later.

Speaker 2 (01:01:15):
Awesome, can't wait.

Speaker 1 (01:01:20):
I knew Keith wouldn't be able to talk just about the
problem of sin withoutintroducing us to its hopeful
solution.
As I said, this is an episodethat is one-sided, but
intentionally.
I think this shows us how sinis selfish, how it separates us
from everything that's trulyworthwhile, and how its cost is

(01:01:41):
both ridiculous and necessary.
When we study sin more, itmakes our participation in it
both short-sighted and stupid.
I hope that helps.
The balancing of the ChristianLife Conference had to be
delayed because of HurricaneMilton.
We're going to be doing itNovember 7th through 9th.
Now, if you were affected bythat or Hurricane Helene, I'm

(01:02:04):
praying for you.
If there's something I can do,please reach out.
God is with those who aredevastated and those spared.
He loves us all and that'simportant to remember.
Next time I hope to talk withmy good friend, andrew Roberts
about a topic that we don'tthink about very often.
I'm just going to leave itthere, so until next time, let's

(01:02:28):
be good and do good.