January 29, 2024 • 37 mins
What does it mean God is running to you...or running after you. Keith Stonehart is a good friend, and he helped me see how God reaches out to us, even when we are not easy to reach.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
In this episode of Balancing the Christian Life, we
talk about God running after us.
Welcome to Balancing theChristian Life.
I'm Dr Kenny Ambrie.
Join me as we discover how tobe better Christians and people
in the digital age.
So what does it mean to bepursued by God?
(00:20):
Specifically, what does it meanthat God is coming after us?
I don't think that's an ominousway to think about God, but I
do think it is a way that God isinterested in his children.
He wants us.
He doesn't need us.
He wants us.
It's a beautiful thought andthere's a song that goes along
with it and, not surprisingly,my music-loving friend, Keith
(00:43):
Stoneheart, was the one whointroduced it to us.
I say us because he has been atmy congregation doing a teen
weekend and I thought he did agreat job.
So I took advantage of the factthat Keith was in town and sat
down with him to have aconversation.
I didn't write any questionsahead of time on this.
(01:03):
I just wanted to talk to Keithabout what it means to be
pursued by God and how we can bebetter followers of him.
That Sunday morning, Keithpreached on God running after us
.
So, Keith, let's just startthere.
What does it mean that God isrunning after us.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
I take that line from the song the Goodness of God.
The first time I heard thatsong, in that particular part
the bridge in that song, whereit says His goodness is running
after me I can think about allthe times where I ran from God
and he used someone to chaseafter me, whether it was
literally, like physically, orit was just the idea of God that
(01:42):
I could not run.
There's 22 years of being aChristian to reflect on in that,
and then there's the 28 yearsbefore that.
I can look back on my life andsee that every turn in my life
God was good to me.
Even in the worst ofcircumstances and some of the
hardest times in my life, therewas always a gleam of hope that
(02:03):
reminded me oh, there he was,there he was.
Speaker 1 (02:09):
You're starting to weave some of your own story
into that.
I recognize a lot of your storybecause I've heard it before
and I gotta tell you I've talkedto a lot of people.
At this point, your story isone of those stories that just
sticks with me and I think it'sone of those reasons that I've
always felt very close to you,keith, because I think you're
somebody who boy.
Your journey is not my journey,but it's one that I recognize
(02:31):
and I admire a lot.
Let me ask you this what do youthink it means that God is
running after us?
Speaker 2 (02:42):
From the beginning, if we go back to Genesis even,
that he would come to the gardento be with his creation.
He wanted that communion withhis creation to come and to walk
in the cool of the day, asGenesis tells us.
I don't think that's everstopped.
We sometimes read that Genesisaccount.
We think, okay, this is whenGod left.
(03:04):
He never left right, he's stillhere and what has happened is
that sin has created aseparation between us and him.
We think things like Isaiah 55,8 and 9, where we say his
thoughts are higher than ourthoughts and his ways are higher
than our ways and he must bethe God of the skies.
(03:25):
He's the God of the heavens,the outer space.
He's that far from me.
Whenever I was in the throes ofaddiction and wanting to get
sober and I can rememberliterally just nights before my
brother-in-law came to talk tome I can remember being in my
bathroom floor crying out maybenot necessarily to God, but I
(03:48):
think I was looking for answers,for hope.
So he's not just the God of theskies, he's the God of the
bathroom floor.
We sometimes think he's so farfrom us, but if we read the
first seven verses of Isaiah 55,the first thing he says is come
all who thirst and hunger, andI think that we miss that aspect
(04:10):
of it.
We get it in our minds thathe's so far from us that he left
the earth once Adam and Evesinned never to return again.
But we know that he came backin Christ and we know that he is
with us always.
Though we can't see him, we cansee his goodness and we can
feel it.
Speaker 1 (04:25):
We have been so good at sinning for so long, you'd
think God would get used to that, don't you?
You'd think?
Speaker 2 (04:35):
But I'm so thankful that he doesn't.
Why?
Because he doesn't give up onus.
When I hear that song and youknow, all my life you've been
faithful, all my life you'vebeen so, so good Just the way
that song is worded, thosearen't what this is going to
sound terrible.
So bear with me, those aren'tchurchy words.
(04:57):
Those aren't churchy words.
Those aren't phrases that weuse sometimes.
I think Christians have theirown language, sometimes that we
say things that only we canrelate to, that the average
person doesn't relate to.
God, guard and direct us, if itbe thy will, until the next
appointed time, Be with thespeaker of the hour.
He may have a readyrecollection, whatever that is,
(05:17):
but I think that when you listento those lyrics, it says all my
life you've been faithful, allmy life you've been so good.
And I think it's because hewon't give up.
How many times do you letsomeone spit in your face?
Because when we sin, that'swhat we do.
And Jesus told Peter 70 timesseven.
Yeah, as much as it takes,until you see me, see my
(05:43):
goodness.
Speaker 1 (05:43):
The thing about God running after us and it's a
beautiful image.
I really like that image.
You made the allusion to theprodigal son, the father in the
prodigal son story, which Ithink is the perfect allusion, I
think, about the father who'srunning down the road when he
sees his son.
That is a great image.
But the son had to come homebefore he had that kind of
(06:05):
relationship and was able toreestablish that relationship.
There was a standard that Godwas not willing to relax and I
gotta tell you that's tough,isn't it?
You know what I love about thatstory Tell me.
Speaker 2 (06:16):
And it is tough.
But when you look at that story, there's a moment where the son
comes to himself.
The scripture says right,that's repentance.
Right.
Then he is oh, this is horrible, I would be better off as a
slave in my dad's house.
I want to go home.
Yeah, he wants to turn and gohome, right.
And now what we notice in thestory is that when he left, the
(06:39):
father didn't run after him.
Right, the father stayed wherehe was.
It's only when the son iscoming home that the father runs
out to meet him.
And so when we say, god willmeet you where you are, that's
true, god will meet you whereyou are, but you first have to
come.
You first have to come.
And then he comes.
He stands there looking, as thatpassage talks about, looking
(07:02):
afar off, right, right.
But when he sees us, repentancehas taken place and the
forgiveness has alreadytranspired, and so he runs out
to greet his son and all thatmatters.
I don't care where you've been,I don't care what you've done,
you're home.
There's been so many preacherarguments about the point of the
(07:22):
prodigal son and, yeah, we canput all those parables together
the lost coin and the lost sheepand the lost son, and you can
make the greater picture and thepoint there.
But, man, what really drives ithome is that he just came home
and that what it's about it isfor me.
Speaker 1 (07:40):
It is for me, too.
One of the things that I wouldsay, though, and I think you
would agree with this God nevercomes someplace where he's not
invited.
That's right.
So I think the important partsof that story is God didn't
allow him to stay in the pig pen.
That's right.
Why not?
Wouldn't it been easier if Godjust went to the pig pen and
said you know what, I'm gonnatake care of you here.
(08:00):
I know you've made a mess ofyour life.
I yeah, okay, I can see whatyou're doing.
It's not right, but I'll makesure this gets cleaned up.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
Yeah, wouldn't that be nice, Would it?
I often get asked I talked alittle bit about this in my
lesson but how could a good GodLet people Go to hell?
Yeah, if you flip that question, how would a good God let bad
people come to heaven?
What kind of God would he bethen?
(08:32):
What so?
What's?
What sort of justice is therein that that there are no rules,
there are no consequences,because then there would be no
good Right for good to exist.
For good to exist, bad has tobe a possibility, yeah, and
available.
And for him to come and say hey, listen, there's no consequence
(08:54):
here, you just come on back.
I don't know.
That's a just God.
Speaker 1 (08:58):
I that sounds a lot like tough love to me, keith.
Speaker 2 (09:02):
I think you're right.
I think I think there's anaspect there in which tough love
comes into play.
Yeah, that that is somethingthat I think.
A note here that that toughlove was first Brought to the
public, I, so to speak, througha guy named Bill Millican.
Bill wrote a book by the sametitle and Bill's whole approach
(09:24):
was going to inner city kids Togive them chances that they
might not ordinarily get.
And it was this tough loveapproach of just saying the hard
things, yeah, to help get themon the right track, and we
exercise that sometimes asbrothers in Christ.
If I was participating insomething that Was not of a
(09:45):
righteous nature, what kind offriend would you be to just let
me and I think that sometimes wedon't see it that way.
We're like, hey, who are you tocome talk to me?
I'm someone who loves you, andsometimes the hard things need
to be said and those hardconcepts have to be put out and
I don't have to understand it.
I Think sometimes that's wherewe are as a culture now, where
(10:09):
people really want to understandeverything and there's just
some things that we can't.
Speaker 1 (10:13):
It's one thing when a perfect God with a perfect law
Says that you have imperfectlyfollowed his law, and of course
you're, at the end of the day,you're gonna have to slap your
forehead and say, boy, I've beenan idiot.
This is stupid.
I cannot believe I've been suchan idiot.
My problem is when I, when I'mdoing the same thing with my
(10:33):
kids, I Can be an idiot byenforcing some house rules as
well.
Yeah, how do I know when it'struly tough Love and not just
being a bullheaded idiot?
Speaker 2 (10:48):
I don't know that I have a perfect answer for that
because there's so many Aspectsof nuance.
Yeah with it.
If you look at Proverbs 27,verse 6, it tells us that
faithful are the wounds of afriend yes and deceitful are the
kisses of an enemy.
Faithful of a wounds are thewounds of a friend.
The reason I wrestle with thatand understanding that to be the
(11:13):
beginning of tough love, isthat it's going to hurt me To
some degree to say these thingsto you, that I'm not saying
these things with a smile on myface, and I think sometimes we
underestimate how much love itrequires to go to someone and
say, hey, listen, I'm worriedabout you, mm-hmm, and this is
(11:35):
why I'm worried about you.
I'm worried about what you'redoing, I'm worried about the
consequences it's gonna have,and I don't want to see you in
trouble Knowing that they verywell may get upset with us.
Yeah, they may reject what itis that they're saying.
They may say they never want totalk to us again because they
don't feel like we're being agood friend.
But a good friend won't let youwillingly make mistakes like
that, and it requires an immenseamount of courage.
(11:57):
That courage is fueled by love,and so I think sometimes we
underestimate just how much ittakes for someone to come and
correct us.
Speaker 1 (12:07):
I'd say this as well sometimes the least loving thing
you can do is let somebody dothe thing they want to do,
because they want to do it.
Yeah and that's a it's an easierthing to do, that's for sure.
Yeah.
And there's also that sense inwhich and again, I didn't
anticipate that that we'd justbe going into the prodigal son
all over yeah, but the fatherlet's him make his mistakes yeah
(12:32):
, because he understands his sonis immature Apparently.
There's some lessons he's goingto have to learn firsthand by
making those mistakes.
That's right.
I Think sometimes in my ownhouse and I'll just talk about
Fighting with Katie thatsometimes when I fight with
(12:54):
Katie, I'm fighting to win.
Sometimes I'm just being anidiot and I just want to make
her eat, grow, yeah, and I, Iguess for me and see if this
resonates with you at all.
If I'm okay, being proved wrong, then maybe this is the right
fight to have.
Does that make sense?
(13:15):
Makes total sense, okay.
Do you ever do anything likethat?
Speaker 2 (13:21):
Only you, kenny, sorry, unfortunately, or
fortunately, depending on howyou look at it.
Yeah, there are so many timeswhere you know again, marriage
is one of those nuanced thingsalso that has its own dynamics
and ups and downs and has a lifeof its own, and I think that
(13:42):
it's.
I know that, particularly in mymarriage, kelly and I both get
in a place sometimes where wejust want to be the one who wins
the argument, and so then we'refighting out of tenacity, we're
fighting just to see who's gotmore determination in this
particular thing.
Sometimes I don't have theenergy for it and I just let her
(14:02):
win Right, even if I know I'mright.
But most of the time when we'reif it's a serious issue and we
find ourselves there, I can seethe love that she's trying to
show me.
I can see her trying to win meover to reasonable, logical
thought as opposed to myemotional reaction to something,
(14:24):
and I can see also how patientshe's being in that, because her
eyes say one thing but hermouth says another.
Yeah, and it's usually in thosemoments that I'm won over,
because she said something hardfor me to hear, and I've heard
it, not because of anything shesaid, but because of what she
(14:47):
communicated through her eyes.
You know that there is there isa lot of restraint, that she's
not going to lash back out at mebecause I've heard her feelings
in response, but she's she'slong suffering with me.
That's usually the times whenit hits me and I'm happy to be
wrong in those moments.
Speaker 1 (15:08):
I understand that.
Do you think God does that tous sometimes?
Speaker 2 (15:16):
I would like to say no, but I can't.
I think sometimes, like theprodigal son, god lets us go.
When you look at Romans and itsays that he gave them up to a
debased mind, god let them havetheir way.
He let them, as I like to referto the hot stove, he let them
(15:39):
touch the stove.
He let them learn that lessonthat way, because sometimes
those lessons and the scars theyleave us are the reminders that
we need.
The stove is hot, stupid, don'ttouch it.
It would have been such aneasier lesson to learn had I
just listened.
But I think sometimes and Ithink this goes for most human
beings is that we need to touchit.
(16:00):
And so God, in his wisdom, letsus go.
Also in his wisdom, thankfully,in his grace, he lets us come
back.
That's right.
Speaker 1 (16:13):
I worry sometimes that you've raised children as
well.
I have too and sometimes it'simportant that you let your kid
try the ramp with the bicyclethat you know is going to fall
over and you know they're goingto hurt themselves, you know
they're going to skin their kneeand you tell them that You're
an idiot if you do that, andthen you watch them go be an
(16:35):
idiot and then you watch theconsequence of it.
The prodigal son says when thathappens, wait for them to come
home.
In other words, that againseems like to be some tough love
.
Speaker 2 (16:49):
I know, as parents, our tendency would be to okay,
I'm going to let you do this,but when you crash, I'm going to
come running, I'm going toscoop you up and I'm going to
bring you into safety.
And that's not what happens inthe prodigal son.
He lets him skin himself up andstay there until he gets up and
brings himself home.
Speaker 1 (17:10):
When do you know you've got the right standard?
When do you know that thestandard is correct?
And again, you're not justfighting to fight, but you're
fighting because there's aprinciple at stake.
Speaker 2 (17:20):
I don't know that this is true for everyone, but I
know for me it's usually whenI'm uncomfortable, you know,
like my, my comfortability saysthis is the right thing to do.
But what I'm, but what I'mdoing is is is I'm?
I'm trying to take away thetension of the moment.
It's those, it's, it's thattension that makes us
uncomfortable.
Right, when I see my kid hurt,I want to stop the hurt.
(17:43):
Yeah, what I'm able to seesometimes is that he needs to
feel that, or she needs to feelthat she needs this pain, or he
needs this pain, or they won'tlearn the lesson.
And so, as a father, it feelswrong.
It feels wrong not to run out.
But also as a spiritual leaderin my home, I have to let them
(18:04):
learn the lesson.
Right, they need to feel theburn of that, so to speak.
Speaker 1 (18:08):
But that just does not seem like it's using grace
at all.
It sounds like what you'redoing is you're making grace
conditional.
Speaker 2 (18:16):
And that's what I thought for a long time.
Speaker 1 (18:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:19):
Until I've really come around on my thoughts on
grace, that there's nothing thatI do to earn grace?
No, nothing.
And I think that we thoughtthat for a long time.
I think that we always talkabout this balance between grace
and works.
There's no such thing, no, nordo I want there to be.
I don't want there to be somesort of scale where if I do
(18:40):
enough good, then God will giveme grace.
I'm getting that somehow.
There is creational grace, andwhat I mean by that is that the
fact that we live and breathe isthe grace of God, and that's
for every human being, not justfor Christians.
And so there's an aspect ofgrace that's just exist.
It just exists because of whoGod is and his goodness.
(19:02):
But then there's the grace thatwe access by faith, which does
require me to do something Right.
To receive the grace of God asa baptized believer, I have to
first be baptized.
To come to God in repentanceand receive the grace that will
cover me for my sins, I have torepent, and so there are
(19:27):
qualifications for it.
The grace is ever present, itnever leaves.
It just doesn't.
I don't receive it arbitrarily.
God just doesn't dole outsalvation grace.
So if there's creational grace,there also is a salvation grace
, right, and that is a differentaspect of it.
(19:47):
It's a big topic, right, and Ithink that sometimes we see it
through a linear lens.
And it's so much bigger thanthat that every human being has
grace because they live andbreathe, but those of the
household of God receivesalvation, which is grace.
Speaker 1 (20:02):
Unpack that.
What does it mean to be in thehousehold of God?
Speaker 2 (20:09):
We know that God made provision for us before the
garden right.
George Peter 1, 20 tells usthat before the foundations of
the world this plan wasultimately in place and that
Jesus was made manifest in theselast days.
I'm paraphrasing but and sofrom the beginning of time,
(20:33):
there was a conversationsomewhere in eternity based on
that passage and another passagein Matthew that talks about it.
But there was a conversationbetween the three that make God
that said okay, what happens ifwe create them and they leave or
they sin?
What are we going to do aboutthat?
(20:54):
And in that conversationthere's a decision that's made
where the son of that Godheadsaid I'll go and die.
And I don't understand it.
I get it, I get the nuance ofit, but I don't mean I can't get
my head around the fact that hewas willing to do this before
(21:17):
we were ever created.
So before there was ever acenter, there was a savior.
And so when I think about gracein that aspect, in the fact
that there's a salvational grace, I'm trying to think of the
(21:38):
right way to word this.
But how could we, how elsecould we access it if not by
condition?
Speaker 1 (21:46):
I think it has to be, if you agree with this, because
the way I've always thoughtabout it is this God plays
favorites, and the one that heplays favorites with is people
that are in his family.
Just like I play favorites, ifyou're in my family, I'm going
to my sons and daughters getpreferential treatment and you
(22:06):
expect that God has told us thathe is going to play favorites
and that there is a specialgrace for those who are a part
of his family, and it's actuallyreally easy to get into his
family.
The ability to get into thefamily is open to anybody who
(22:27):
wants to, and this is somethingthat Josh Creel turned me on to,
which is the difference betweenperfection and devotion, that
we are not perfect, but we canbe devoted you see that
difference Makes perfect sense.
Yeah, he's not waiting for us tobe perfect lawkeepers, because
he knows we're not, but he islooking for people that,
(22:47):
whenever we stumble, we keep onrunning back to him because
we're devoted to him.
Speaker 2 (22:53):
Does that make sense?
Makes total sense, and I thinkthat there's an aspect like you
set up a great analogy therewith my family gets preferential
treatment.
But if you knock on my door andyou need help, I'm going to
invite you in, and if you comein, guess what?
You're part of the family,you're in my household, right,
and the thing we can be thankfulfor is that God's table is
(23:15):
never going to run out of room.
Speaker 1 (23:17):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (23:18):
Right, there's room at the table for everyone.
Right, and it's up to us toknock that.
He's there.
He's there, the invitation isopen.
It's up to us to knock.
Right, he's never going toforce us.
God is never going to twist ourarm behind our backs and say
you better love me.
He just says I love you.
Speaker 1 (23:39):
You're welcome here.
That's one of the points youmade in the lesson this morning,
which was God's grace does notisn't contingent on our goodness
.
It's contingent on God'sgoodness.
It's his, yeah.
Why Explain that?
Unpack that.
Speaker 2 (23:58):
Well, because I think of it like when with my kids,
when our kids are born, they'rebabies and this, this won't sit
well with a lot of women, butit's true, our babies aren't
born loving us, right.
Right, they don't know anything, right, they're a blank slate.
And the truth is we love themfrom the moment we know that
(24:21):
they're coming.
From the moment you get thenews that you're going to have a
baby, love is there.
Love is present in that, in thepreparation, right, you have
their room, you buy stuff fortheir room, you buy a crib, you
buy a changing table, you buydiapers and all the things that
you're going to need.
You make preparation and youmake plans.
You have plans and then theyarrive, and so you've already
(24:45):
shown all this love upfront andthen they're here and then it
begins and eventually whathappens is they love you back.
But that's taught.
That's taught through theprovision and the care and the
planning and all those things.
They learn love from us becausewe show it first.
(25:07):
And that's exactly what Johntells us in 1 John 4 that we
love because God first loved us.
So the same, I think, is withgrace, that we the and I'll say
this the older I get, the more Iunderstand it.
The longer I'm a parent, themore I understand.
There's nothing that my soncould do that could ever make me
(25:28):
love him less ever.
Speaker 1 (25:31):
You mentioned that 1 John passage.
Right in there it also Johnsays, not that we loved him, but
that he loved us.
Why is that a big deal?
Why is that a bigdifferentiation?
Speaker 2 (25:47):
Because, again, I think we learn to love right.
He is love, that's right.
And so what it is that we learnhis attributes.
The longer we're alive we seeit, more we recognize the things
that maybe we didn't recognizebefore.
My son, when he was 10 yearsold, he just thought that
(26:11):
groceries magically appeared,that he would come to the
refrigerator and there's drinksand there's snacks and there's
all these things, and it wasn'tuntil he had to go buy some of
his own Right that he's like oh,this is how that happens.
And so the same thing with us.
The older we get, the more werealize oh God did that, god
provided that.
And we just don't see things.
(26:32):
When we're younger and maybeit's limited sight, maybe it's
we're in a different place wherewe're wrapped up in our own
things.
But I want to say, the older weget, the wider our eyes get and
we begin to see the working ofGod that we it's always been
there, but we just never saw it.
Until we look in the review andI think, whether it's love or
(26:52):
grace or any of those aspects ofhis goodness, it's always been
there.
It's always been there.
I think that's why it's a bigdeal.
Speaker 1 (27:00):
I completely agree with that I also think about our
understanding of love, justlike you were talking about, is
so based on perspective, anduntil you grow up a little bit,
you don't really understand whatlove is.
You understand the benefits oflove, you understand it.
Christmas you get some reallynice gifts but you don't
understand generosity atChristmas yet.
(27:21):
But when you're a parent, youunderstand generosity.
God understands love perfectlyand we keep on having to figure
out what love is by looking tohim again.
Does that make sense?
100%, yeah, okay, I want to sayit again.
You did an excellent job thismorning, thank you.
(27:42):
What do we do this week that wehaven't been doing?
Put some verbs and sentences.
What should we change about ourlives?
What should make us?
How should we be different thisweek?
Speaker 2 (27:53):
In the lesson I talked about a couple of
different aspects of hisgoodness.
That God's goodness is notalways pleasant, it's not equal,
it's not contingent upon us andin those aspects there are some
calls to action already.
But I think this weekundoubtedly what's going to
happen, and maybe not you ormaybe not this week or whatever,
(28:14):
but somebody at some point isgoing to experience difficulty.
Look for the good Right.
You and I have we've doneseveral podcasts together and
you always ask me what is good,that's right, and it's very easy
to say God is good, especiallyafter today's lesson.
But I think find the good.
There's good in everything andeven in the worst situations
(28:41):
that I can think of that I'veexperienced.
There was good, I think, one ofthe lessons that I didn't.
I changed a few of my lessonsfor the teens this weekend as I
got to know the group a littlebit better.
I said you know what that mightbe too heavy of a lesson, but
one of the lessons I was goingto give was about a young man
that I worked with when I firstmoved to Birmingham who was
(29:03):
dealing with heroin addictionand he died.
He overdosed and I struggled,man.
I struggled to see God in thatbecause what Will wanted to do
was he wanted to help hisfriends who had also fallen into
addiction and to help them findwhat he had found.
So there, to help them findwhat he found and to get back on
(29:23):
track.
And unfortunately he relapsedand he overdosed and he didn't
get to do that then but he didbecause he had seven friends and
four out of those seven are nowfaithful Christians again and
sober.
And I saw his mom I guess itwas a couple of years after his
(29:44):
death and I saw her at a Panerabread and we sat down and Kelly
and I and we were talking withher and she said I used to pray
all the time that Will couldfind peace and I used to pray
all the time that when he wasready, god would just take him
and she goes and you know what?
That's what happened.
She said, when he repented thatnight with you and I there and
(30:06):
he went on to bed, I didn't knowhe was gonna die, she said.
But I know that he found peacebecause whatever you and I think
peace is, it pales incomparison to what Will found
when he opened his eyes, becausehe repented right and she goes.
I have no doubt where Will is.
But more than that, his lifeaffected and produced change in
(30:29):
others.
Maybe his whole life was aboutthose other people, and it's
hard to see that in the momentbecause you're thinking, man, I
just got robbed.
He just got robbed of havingthis impact that he wanted to
have, but he still had it, andso there was goodness in that.
It's hard to say that there wasgoodness in the death of anybody
(30:50):
, but there was goodness thatwas produced by his passing, and
so sometimes we don't see itthrough the windshield, we see
it in a preview, but nonethelessyou can see goodness.
So I think that's one thing wecan do.
We can find goodness insituations and we can also
understand that with thatwaiting, there will be goodness
(31:15):
that we produce.
I spoke a little bit about mywife's situation with breast
cancer.
There was goodness produced inthat.
I found out that I really didhave faith.
Faith is something we say wehave until you find yourself in
a situation like that and thenyou're not sure.
I know.
(31:35):
Now I know, and so if I can seethe good in a tragedy and I can
also see the good in my ownsituations, I think that those
are things we can put intoaction right away.
Obviously a long game thatcomes with bearing with others
and being patient with othersand seeing goodness in long-term
situations.
(31:55):
But I think, if we're justtalking about starting tomorrow,
look for the good, look for thegood in all of it.
It's there.
Speaker 1 (32:05):
The other thing that you said, and you almost quoted
my line.
You said that God and thecharacter of God is good.
God is good and that shouldcause you to go out and do good.
What kind of good could we do?
Speaker 2 (32:29):
It's the small things .
Right, because when you thinkabout good it's so big.
Right, if you think about it,good is so big.
But what can I do?
What can I do tonight when I goto the airport to go home, I
could be courteous to thesecurity officers.
They have a hard job.
(32:50):
No doubt it's frustrating andpeople are frustrated with them,
but you could be.
You could just smile at someone, you could extend a kind word
to someone, you could listen.
Sometimes you get on the planeand, what's funny?
People don't usually talk onplanes anymore.
It's like they get on a planeand they're just in their own
(33:10):
world and they've got theirearbuds in and they're listening
to a podcast or something.
But if someone talks to you,instead of blowing them off,
respond listen.
Maybe they just need to getsomething off their chest and
you're an anonymous person thatcould hear this thing and give
them some sort of comfort.
I don't know.
There's so many things that wecould do, just small things,
(33:32):
little things, but that allpoint towards a greater good.
Speaker 1 (33:39):
Well, you've kind of stolen my last question.
But that said, how do you dogood?
Speaker 2 (33:56):
You're gonna make me cry, kenny, not trying to keep,
I know, but it's the thing is,it becomes something that you're
either hyper aware of orcompletely oblivious to.
Yeah, but there's a consciouschoice every day To see the good
(34:18):
in others and to be the goodthat you want to see in others.
Mm-hmm, it's hard.
We live in a hard world.
We live in a time where whenkindness is conditional and it's
hard To not respond with thesame thing that you get, and so
(34:40):
the way that I try to do good isTo grit my teeth and do the
thing that makes me the mostuncomfortable and I'm sharing.
Maybe I'm over sharing here,but I choose happiness.
Yeah, I, despite appearances,I'm not a naturally happy person
(35:02):
.
I Wake up with a monkey on myback every day.
It stays there.
Yeah, I think often about thedays of addiction, the hurt that
I produced, the heartache thatI caused, and I know that I've
been forgiven.
I talked about that.
Yeah, I know that, yeah, yeahbut man, he's there and To be
(35:27):
happy is Not a natural is not anatural thing that I do.
I choose it.
There are days that I don'twant to and I fight that battle.
I fight it and Most of the timeI win.
Sometimes I don't, and I haveto remember, to give myself
grace, that I'm human and thatI'm gonna have bad days and I'm
(35:48):
allowed to.
But man, the most good that Ican do is choose happiness,
choose kindness and then letthat infect others.
I ought to be the mostinfectious person In any room
that I'm in yeah and sometimes Ijust want to be the less Seen
(36:08):
person in any room that I'm in.
I just don't.
I want to be small andinvisible.
But I know that if I do thatI'm robbing myself of the
purpose that God gave me, andthat's to go make disciples.
Speaker 1 (36:20):
That's right, keith, I love you.
Thank you so much for doingthis man.
Speaker 2 (36:26):
I love you too, brother.
Thank you so much for lettingme.
It's always a joy.
I love talking to you, whetherthe microphones are on or not.
I know that I love theseconversations so much and I'm
just grateful we were recordingthis one today.
Me too.
Speaker 1 (36:41):
Thanks, man.
Speaker 2 (36:41):
Thank you, brother I.
Speaker 1 (36:46):
Always enjoyed talking to Keith.
He's somebody that I identifywith, even though our stories
are completely different.
I admire who he is and I admirewhat he does.
We had a great time and I'mglad that he was able to come
down to Tampa and speak for ourteens and also for all of us.
Keith is one of those guys thatmake me better because I know
(37:07):
him.
So thanks, keith, I appreciatethat.
As for the good thing I'mthinking about, I'm grateful for
people who support me,especially in times of need.
There's been a few friends thathave really helped me out a lot
in the past few weeks,especially my wife.
It's easy to take these peoplefor granted or not to thank them
(37:29):
, but they need to be thanked.
I Think it's important that weboth give gratitude, but also
learn how to accept gratitude aswell.
I'm gonna give my gratitude tomy wife, keith, to a lot of
people that have been very dearto me.
So until next time, let's begood and do good.
In this episode of Balancing the Christian Life, we
talk about God running after us.
Welcome to Balancing theChristian Life.
I'm Dr Kenny Ambrie.
Join me as we discover how tobe better Christians and people
in the digital age.
So what does it mean to bepursued by God?
(00:20):
Specifically, what does it meanthat God is coming after us?
I don't think that's an ominousway to think about God, but I
do think it is a way that God isinterested in his children.
He wants us.
He doesn't need us.
He wants us.
It's a beautiful thought andthere's a song that goes along
with it and, not surprisingly,my music-loving friend, Keith
(00:43):
Stoneheart, was the one whointroduced it to us.
I say us because he has been atmy congregation doing a teen
weekend and I thought he did agreat job.
So I took advantage of the factthat Keith was in town and sat
down with him to have aconversation.
I didn't write any questionsahead of time on this.
(01:03):
I just wanted to talk to Keithabout what it means to be
pursued by God and how we can bebetter followers of him.
That Sunday morning, Keithpreached on God running after us
.
So, Keith, let's just startthere.
What does it mean that God isrunning after us.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
I take that line from the song the Goodness of God.
The first time I heard thatsong, in that particular part
the bridge in that song, whereit says His goodness is running
after me I can think about allthe times where I ran from God
and he used someone to chaseafter me, whether it was
literally, like physically, orit was just the idea of God that
(01:42):
I could not run.
There's 22 years of being aChristian to reflect on in that,
and then there's the 28 yearsbefore that.
I can look back on my life andsee that every turn in my life
God was good to me.
Even in the worst ofcircumstances and some of the
hardest times in my life, therewas always a gleam of hope that
(02:03):
reminded me oh, there he was,there he was.
Speaker 1 (02:09):
You're starting to weave some of your own story
into that.
I recognize a lot of your storybecause I've heard it before
and I gotta tell you I've talkedto a lot of people.
At this point, your story isone of those stories that just
sticks with me and I think it'sone of those reasons that I've
always felt very close to you,keith, because I think you're
somebody who boy.
Your journey is not my journey,but it's one that I recognize
(02:31):
and I admire a lot.
Let me ask you this what do youthink it means that God is
running after us?
Speaker 2 (02:42):
From the beginning, if we go back to Genesis even,
that he would come to the gardento be with his creation.
He wanted that communion withhis creation to come and to walk
in the cool of the day, asGenesis tells us.
I don't think that's everstopped.
We sometimes read that Genesisaccount.
We think, okay, this is whenGod left.
(03:04):
He never left right, he's stillhere and what has happened is
that sin has created aseparation between us and him.
We think things like Isaiah 55,8 and 9, where we say his
thoughts are higher than ourthoughts and his ways are higher
than our ways and he must bethe God of the skies.
(03:25):
He's the God of the heavens,the outer space.
He's that far from me.
Whenever I was in the throes ofaddiction and wanting to get
sober and I can rememberliterally just nights before my
brother-in-law came to talk tome I can remember being in my
bathroom floor crying out maybenot necessarily to God, but I
(03:48):
think I was looking for answers,for hope.
So he's not just the God of theskies, he's the God of the
bathroom floor.
We sometimes think he's so farfrom us, but if we read the
first seven verses of Isaiah 55,the first thing he says is come
all who thirst and hunger, andI think that we miss that aspect
(04:10):
of it.
We get it in our minds thathe's so far from us that he left
the earth once Adam and Evesinned never to return again.
But we know that he came backin Christ and we know that he is
with us always.
Though we can't see him, we cansee his goodness and we can
feel it.
Speaker 1 (04:25):
We have been so good at sinning for so long, you'd
think God would get used to that, don't you?
You'd think?
Speaker 2 (04:35):
But I'm so thankful that he doesn't.
Why?
Because he doesn't give up onus.
When I hear that song and youknow, all my life you've been
faithful, all my life you'vebeen so, so good Just the way
that song is worded, thosearen't what this is going to
sound terrible.
So bear with me, those aren'tchurchy words.
(04:57):
Those aren't churchy words.
Those aren't phrases that weuse sometimes.
I think Christians have theirown language, sometimes that we
say things that only we canrelate to, that the average
person doesn't relate to.
God, guard and direct us, if itbe thy will, until the next
appointed time, Be with thespeaker of the hour.
He may have a readyrecollection, whatever that is,
(05:17):
but I think that when you listento those lyrics, it says all my
life you've been faithful, allmy life you've been so good.
And I think it's because hewon't give up.
How many times do you letsomeone spit in your face?
Because when we sin, that'swhat we do.
And Jesus told Peter 70 timesseven.
Yeah, as much as it takes,until you see me, see my
(05:43):
goodness.
Speaker 1 (05:43):
The thing about God running after us and it's a
beautiful image.
I really like that image.
You made the allusion to theprodigal son, the father in the
prodigal son story, which Ithink is the perfect allusion, I
think, about the father who'srunning down the road when he
sees his son.
That is a great image.
But the son had to come homebefore he had that kind of
(06:05):
relationship and was able toreestablish that relationship.
There was a standard that Godwas not willing to relax and I
gotta tell you that's tough,isn't it?
You know what I love about thatstory Tell me.
Speaker 2 (06:16):
And it is tough.
But when you look at that story, there's a moment where the son
comes to himself.
The scripture says right,that's repentance.
Right.
Then he is oh, this is horrible, I would be better off as a
slave in my dad's house.
I want to go home.
Yeah, he wants to turn and gohome, right.
And now what we notice in thestory is that when he left, the
(06:39):
father didn't run after him.
Right, the father stayed wherehe was.
It's only when the son iscoming home that the father runs
out to meet him.
And so when we say, god willmeet you where you are, that's
true, god will meet you whereyou are, but you first have to
come.
You first have to come.
And then he comes.
He stands there looking, as thatpassage talks about, looking
(07:02):
afar off, right, right.
But when he sees us, repentancehas taken place and the
forgiveness has alreadytranspired, and so he runs out
to greet his son and all thatmatters.
I don't care where you've been,I don't care what you've done,
you're home.
There's been so many preacherarguments about the point of the
(07:22):
prodigal son and, yeah, we canput all those parables together
the lost coin and the lost sheepand the lost son, and you can
make the greater picture and thepoint there.
But, man, what really drives ithome is that he just came home
and that what it's about it isfor me.
Speaker 1 (07:40):
It is for me, too.
One of the things that I wouldsay, though, and I think you
would agree with this God nevercomes someplace where he's not
invited.
That's right.
So I think the important partsof that story is God didn't
allow him to stay in the pig pen.
That's right.
Why not?
Wouldn't it been easier if Godjust went to the pig pen and
said you know what, I'm gonnatake care of you here.
(08:00):
I know you've made a mess ofyour life.
I yeah, okay, I can see whatyou're doing.
It's not right, but I'll makesure this gets cleaned up.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
Yeah, wouldn't that be nice, Would it?
I often get asked I talked alittle bit about this in my
lesson but how could a good GodLet people Go to hell?
Yeah, if you flip that question, how would a good God let bad
people come to heaven?
What kind of God would he bethen?
(08:32):
What so?
What's?
What sort of justice is therein that that there are no rules,
there are no consequences,because then there would be no
good Right for good to exist.
For good to exist, bad has tobe a possibility, yeah, and
available.
And for him to come and say hey, listen, there's no consequence
(08:54):
here, you just come on back.
I don't know.
That's a just God.
Speaker 1 (08:58):
I that sounds a lot like tough love to me, keith.
Speaker 2 (09:02):
I think you're right.
I think I think there's anaspect there in which tough love
comes into play.
Yeah, that that is somethingthat I think.
A note here that that toughlove was first Brought to the
public, I, so to speak, througha guy named Bill Millican.
Bill wrote a book by the sametitle and Bill's whole approach
(09:24):
was going to inner city kids Togive them chances that they
might not ordinarily get.
And it was this tough loveapproach of just saying the hard
things, yeah, to help get themon the right track, and we
exercise that sometimes asbrothers in Christ.
If I was participating insomething that Was not of a
(09:45):
righteous nature, what kind offriend would you be to just let
me and I think that sometimes wedon't see it that way.
We're like, hey, who are you tocome talk to me?
I'm someone who loves you, andsometimes the hard things need
to be said and those hardconcepts have to be put out and
I don't have to understand it.
I Think sometimes that's wherewe are as a culture now, where
(10:09):
people really want to understandeverything and there's just
some things that we can't.
Speaker 1 (10:13):
It's one thing when a perfect God with a perfect law
Says that you have imperfectlyfollowed his law, and of course
you're, at the end of the day,you're gonna have to slap your
forehead and say, boy, I've beenan idiot.
This is stupid.
I cannot believe I've been suchan idiot.
My problem is when I, when I'mdoing the same thing with my
(10:33):
kids, I Can be an idiot byenforcing some house rules as
well.
Yeah, how do I know when it'struly tough Love and not just
being a bullheaded idiot?
Speaker 2 (10:48):
I don't know that I have a perfect answer for that
because there's so many Aspectsof nuance.
Yeah with it.
If you look at Proverbs 27,verse 6, it tells us that
faithful are the wounds of afriend yes and deceitful are the
kisses of an enemy.
Faithful of a wounds are thewounds of a friend.
The reason I wrestle with thatand understanding that to be the
(11:13):
beginning of tough love, isthat it's going to hurt me To
some degree to say these thingsto you, that I'm not saying
these things with a smile on myface, and I think sometimes we
underestimate how much love itrequires to go to someone and
say, hey, listen, I'm worriedabout you, mm-hmm, and this is
(11:35):
why I'm worried about you.
I'm worried about what you'redoing, I'm worried about the
consequences it's gonna have,and I don't want to see you in
trouble Knowing that they verywell may get upset with us.
Yeah, they may reject what itis that they're saying.
They may say they never want totalk to us again because they
don't feel like we're being agood friend.
But a good friend won't let youwillingly make mistakes like
that, and it requires an immenseamount of courage.
(11:57):
That courage is fueled by love,and so I think sometimes we
underestimate just how much ittakes for someone to come and
correct us.
Speaker 1 (12:07):
I'd say this as well sometimes the least loving thing
you can do is let somebody dothe thing they want to do,
because they want to do it.
Yeah and that's a it's an easierthing to do, that's for sure.
Yeah.
And there's also that sense inwhich and again, I didn't
anticipate that that we'd justbe going into the prodigal son
all over yeah, but the fatherlet's him make his mistakes yeah
(12:32):
, because he understands his sonis immature Apparently.
There's some lessons he's goingto have to learn firsthand by
making those mistakes.
That's right.
I Think sometimes in my ownhouse and I'll just talk about
Fighting with Katie thatsometimes when I fight with
(12:54):
Katie, I'm fighting to win.
Sometimes I'm just being anidiot and I just want to make
her eat, grow, yeah, and I, Iguess for me and see if this
resonates with you at all.
If I'm okay, being proved wrong, then maybe this is the right
fight to have.
Does that make sense?
(13:15):
Makes total sense, okay.
Do you ever do anything likethat?
Speaker 2 (13:21):
Only you, kenny, sorry, unfortunately, or
fortunately, depending on howyou look at it.
Yeah, there are so many timeswhere you know again, marriage
is one of those nuanced thingsalso that has its own dynamics
and ups and downs and has a lifeof its own, and I think that
(13:42):
it's.
I know that, particularly in mymarriage, kelly and I both get
in a place sometimes where wejust want to be the one who wins
the argument, and so then we'refighting out of tenacity, we're
fighting just to see who's gotmore determination in this
particular thing.
Sometimes I don't have theenergy for it and I just let her
(14:02):
win Right, even if I know I'mright.
But most of the time when we'reif it's a serious issue and we
find ourselves there, I can seethe love that she's trying to
show me.
I can see her trying to win meover to reasonable, logical
thought as opposed to myemotional reaction to something,
(14:24):
and I can see also how patientshe's being in that, because her
eyes say one thing but hermouth says another.
Yeah, and it's usually in thosemoments that I'm won over,
because she said something hardfor me to hear, and I've heard
it, not because of anything shesaid, but because of what she
(14:47):
communicated through her eyes.
You know that there is there isa lot of restraint, that she's
not going to lash back out at mebecause I've heard her feelings
in response, but she's she'slong suffering with me.
That's usually the times whenit hits me and I'm happy to be
wrong in those moments.
Speaker 1 (15:08):
I understand that.
Do you think God does that tous sometimes?
Speaker 2 (15:16):
I would like to say no, but I can't.
I think sometimes, like theprodigal son, god lets us go.
When you look at Romans and itsays that he gave them up to a
debased mind, god let them havetheir way.
He let them, as I like to referto the hot stove, he let them
(15:39):
touch the stove.
He let them learn that lessonthat way, because sometimes
those lessons and the scars theyleave us are the reminders that
we need.
The stove is hot, stupid, don'ttouch it.
It would have been such aneasier lesson to learn had I
just listened.
But I think sometimes and Ithink this goes for most human
beings is that we need to touchit.
(16:00):
And so God, in his wisdom, letsus go.
Also in his wisdom, thankfully,in his grace, he lets us come
back.
That's right.
Speaker 1 (16:13):
I worry sometimes that you've raised children as
well.
I have too and sometimes it'simportant that you let your kid
try the ramp with the bicyclethat you know is going to fall
over and you know they're goingto hurt themselves, you know
they're going to skin their kneeand you tell them that You're
an idiot if you do that, andthen you watch them go be an
(16:35):
idiot and then you watch theconsequence of it.
The prodigal son says when thathappens, wait for them to come
home.
In other words, that againseems like to be some tough love
.
Speaker 2 (16:49):
I know, as parents, our tendency would be to okay,
I'm going to let you do this,but when you crash, I'm going to
come running, I'm going toscoop you up and I'm going to
bring you into safety.
And that's not what happens inthe prodigal son.
He lets him skin himself up andstay there until he gets up and
brings himself home.
Speaker 1 (17:10):
When do you know you've got the right standard?
When do you know that thestandard is correct?
And again, you're not justfighting to fight, but you're
fighting because there's aprinciple at stake.
Speaker 2 (17:20):
I don't know that this is true for everyone, but I
know for me it's usually whenI'm uncomfortable, you know,
like my, my comfortability saysthis is the right thing to do.
But what I'm, but what I'mdoing is is is I'm?
I'm trying to take away thetension of the moment.
It's those, it's, it's thattension that makes us
uncomfortable.
Right, when I see my kid hurt,I want to stop the hurt.
(17:43):
Yeah, what I'm able to seesometimes is that he needs to
feel that, or she needs to feelthat she needs this pain, or he
needs this pain, or they won'tlearn the lesson.
And so, as a father, it feelswrong.
It feels wrong not to run out.
But also as a spiritual leaderin my home, I have to let them
(18:04):
learn the lesson.
Right, they need to feel theburn of that, so to speak.
Speaker 1 (18:08):
But that just does not seem like it's using grace
at all.
It sounds like what you'redoing is you're making grace
conditional.
Speaker 2 (18:16):
And that's what I thought for a long time.
Speaker 1 (18:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:19):
Until I've really come around on my thoughts on
grace, that there's nothing thatI do to earn grace?
No, nothing.
And I think that we thoughtthat for a long time.
I think that we always talkabout this balance between grace
and works.
There's no such thing, no, nordo I want there to be.
I don't want there to be somesort of scale where if I do
(18:40):
enough good, then God will giveme grace.
I'm getting that somehow.
There is creational grace, andwhat I mean by that is that the
fact that we live and breathe isthe grace of God, and that's
for every human being, not justfor Christians.
And so there's an aspect ofgrace that's just exist.
It just exists because of whoGod is and his goodness.
(19:02):
But then there's the grace thatwe access by faith, which does
require me to do something Right.
To receive the grace of God asa baptized believer, I have to
first be baptized.
To come to God in repentanceand receive the grace that will
cover me for my sins, I have torepent, and so there are
(19:27):
qualifications for it.
The grace is ever present, itnever leaves.
It just doesn't.
I don't receive it arbitrarily.
God just doesn't dole outsalvation grace.
So if there's creational grace,there also is a salvation grace
, right, and that is a differentaspect of it.
(19:47):
It's a big topic, right, and Ithink that sometimes we see it
through a linear lens.
And it's so much bigger thanthat that every human being has
grace because they live andbreathe, but those of the
household of God receivesalvation, which is grace.
Speaker 1 (20:02):
Unpack that.
What does it mean to be in thehousehold of God?
Speaker 2 (20:09):
We know that God made provision for us before the
garden right.
George Peter 1, 20 tells usthat before the foundations of
the world this plan wasultimately in place and that
Jesus was made manifest in theselast days.
I'm paraphrasing but and sofrom the beginning of time,
(20:33):
there was a conversationsomewhere in eternity based on
that passage and another passagein Matthew that talks about it.
But there was a conversationbetween the three that make God
that said okay, what happens ifwe create them and they leave or
they sin?
What are we going to do aboutthat?
(20:54):
And in that conversationthere's a decision that's made
where the son of that Godheadsaid I'll go and die.
And I don't understand it.
I get it, I get the nuance ofit, but I don't mean I can't get
my head around the fact that hewas willing to do this before
(21:17):
we were ever created.
So before there was ever acenter, there was a savior.
And so when I think about gracein that aspect, in the fact
that there's a salvational grace, I'm trying to think of the
(21:38):
right way to word this.
But how could we, how elsecould we access it if not by
condition?
Speaker 1 (21:46):
I think it has to be, if you agree with this, because
the way I've always thoughtabout it is this God plays
favorites, and the one that heplays favorites with is people
that are in his family.
Just like I play favorites, ifyou're in my family, I'm going
to my sons and daughters getpreferential treatment and you
(22:06):
expect that God has told us thathe is going to play favorites
and that there is a specialgrace for those who are a part
of his family, and it's actuallyreally easy to get into his
family.
The ability to get into thefamily is open to anybody who
(22:27):
wants to, and this is somethingthat Josh Creel turned me on to,
which is the difference betweenperfection and devotion, that
we are not perfect, but we canbe devoted you see that
difference Makes perfect sense.
Yeah, he's not waiting for us tobe perfect lawkeepers, because
he knows we're not, but he islooking for people that,
(22:47):
whenever we stumble, we keep onrunning back to him because
we're devoted to him.
Speaker 2 (22:53):
Does that make sense?
Makes total sense, and I thinkthat there's an aspect like you
set up a great analogy therewith my family gets preferential
treatment.
But if you knock on my door andyou need help, I'm going to
invite you in, and if you comein, guess what?
You're part of the family,you're in my household, right,
and the thing we can be thankfulfor is that God's table is
(23:15):
never going to run out of room.
Speaker 1 (23:17):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (23:18):
Right, there's room at the table for everyone.
Right, and it's up to us toknock that.
He's there.
He's there, the invitation isopen.
It's up to us to knock.
Right, he's never going toforce us.
God is never going to twist ourarm behind our backs and say
you better love me.
He just says I love you.
Speaker 1 (23:39):
You're welcome here.
That's one of the points youmade in the lesson this morning,
which was God's grace does notisn't contingent on our goodness
.
It's contingent on God'sgoodness.
It's his, yeah.
Why Explain that?
Unpack that.
Speaker 2 (23:58):
Well, because I think of it like when with my kids,
when our kids are born, they'rebabies and this, this won't sit
well with a lot of women, butit's true, our babies aren't
born loving us, right.
Right, they don't know anything, right, they're a blank slate.
And the truth is we love themfrom the moment we know that
(24:21):
they're coming.
From the moment you get thenews that you're going to have a
baby, love is there.
Love is present in that, in thepreparation, right, you have
their room, you buy stuff fortheir room, you buy a crib, you
buy a changing table, you buydiapers and all the things that
you're going to need.
You make preparation and youmake plans.
You have plans and then theyarrive, and so you've already
(24:45):
shown all this love upfront andthen they're here and then it
begins and eventually whathappens is they love you back.
But that's taught.
That's taught through theprovision and the care and the
planning and all those things.
They learn love from us becausewe show it first.
(25:07):
And that's exactly what Johntells us in 1 John 4 that we
love because God first loved us.
So the same, I think, is withgrace, that we the and I'll say
this the older I get, the more Iunderstand it.
The longer I'm a parent, themore I understand.
There's nothing that my soncould do that could ever make me
(25:28):
love him less ever.
Speaker 1 (25:31):
You mentioned that 1 John passage.
Right in there it also Johnsays, not that we loved him, but
that he loved us.
Why is that a big deal?
Why is that a bigdifferentiation?
Speaker 2 (25:47):
Because, again, I think we learn to love right.
He is love, that's right.
And so what it is that we learnhis attributes.
The longer we're alive we seeit, more we recognize the things
that maybe we didn't recognizebefore.
My son, when he was 10 yearsold, he just thought that
(26:11):
groceries magically appeared,that he would come to the
refrigerator and there's drinksand there's snacks and there's
all these things, and it wasn'tuntil he had to go buy some of
his own Right that he's like oh,this is how that happens.
And so the same thing with us.
The older we get, the more werealize oh God did that, god
provided that.
And we just don't see things.
(26:32):
When we're younger and maybeit's limited sight, maybe it's
we're in a different place wherewe're wrapped up in our own
things.
But I want to say, the older weget, the wider our eyes get and
we begin to see the working ofGod that we it's always been
there, but we just never saw it.
Until we look in the review andI think, whether it's love or
(26:52):
grace or any of those aspects ofhis goodness, it's always been
there.
It's always been there.
I think that's why it's a bigdeal.
Speaker 1 (27:00):
I completely agree with that I also think about our
understanding of love, justlike you were talking about, is
so based on perspective, anduntil you grow up a little bit,
you don't really understand whatlove is.
You understand the benefits oflove, you understand it.
Christmas you get some reallynice gifts but you don't
understand generosity atChristmas yet.
(27:21):
But when you're a parent, youunderstand generosity.
God understands love perfectlyand we keep on having to figure
out what love is by looking tohim again.
Does that make sense?
100%, yeah, okay, I want to sayit again.
You did an excellent job thismorning, thank you.
(27:42):
What do we do this week that wehaven't been doing?
Put some verbs and sentences.
What should we change about ourlives?
What should make us?
How should we be different thisweek?
Speaker 2 (27:53):
In the lesson I talked about a couple of
different aspects of hisgoodness.
That God's goodness is notalways pleasant, it's not equal,
it's not contingent upon us andin those aspects there are some
calls to action already.
But I think this weekundoubtedly what's going to
happen, and maybe not you ormaybe not this week or whatever,
(28:14):
but somebody at some point isgoing to experience difficulty.
Look for the good Right.
You and I have we've doneseveral podcasts together and
you always ask me what is good,that's right, and it's very easy
to say God is good, especiallyafter today's lesson.
But I think find the good.
There's good in everything andeven in the worst situations
(28:41):
that I can think of that I'veexperienced.
There was good, I think, one ofthe lessons that I didn't.
I changed a few of my lessonsfor the teens this weekend as I
got to know the group a littlebit better.
I said you know what that mightbe too heavy of a lesson, but
one of the lessons I was goingto give was about a young man
that I worked with when I firstmoved to Birmingham who was
(29:03):
dealing with heroin addictionand he died.
He overdosed and I struggled,man.
I struggled to see God in thatbecause what Will wanted to do
was he wanted to help hisfriends who had also fallen into
addiction and to help them findwhat he had found.
So there, to help them findwhat he found and to get back on
(29:23):
track.
And unfortunately he relapsedand he overdosed and he didn't
get to do that then but he didbecause he had seven friends and
four out of those seven are nowfaithful Christians again and
sober.
And I saw his mom I guess itwas a couple of years after his
(29:44):
death and I saw her at a Panerabread and we sat down and Kelly
and I and we were talking withher and she said I used to pray
all the time that Will couldfind peace and I used to pray
all the time that when he wasready, god would just take him
and she goes and you know what?
That's what happened.
She said, when he repented thatnight with you and I there and
(30:06):
he went on to bed, I didn't knowhe was gonna die, she said.
But I know that he found peacebecause whatever you and I think
peace is, it pales incomparison to what Will found
when he opened his eyes, becausehe repented right and she goes.
I have no doubt where Will is.
But more than that, his lifeaffected and produced change in
(30:29):
others.
Maybe his whole life was aboutthose other people, and it's
hard to see that in the momentbecause you're thinking, man, I
just got robbed.
He just got robbed of havingthis impact that he wanted to
have, but he still had it, andso there was goodness in that.
It's hard to say that there wasgoodness in the death of anybody
(30:50):
, but there was goodness thatwas produced by his passing, and
so sometimes we don't see itthrough the windshield, we see
it in a preview, but nonethelessyou can see goodness.
So I think that's one thing wecan do.
We can find goodness insituations and we can also
understand that with thatwaiting, there will be goodness
(31:15):
that we produce.
I spoke a little bit about mywife's situation with breast
cancer.
There was goodness produced inthat.
I found out that I really didhave faith.
Faith is something we say wehave until you find yourself in
a situation like that and thenyou're not sure.
I know.
(31:35):
Now I know, and so if I can seethe good in a tragedy and I can
also see the good in my ownsituations, I think that those
are things we can put intoaction right away.
Obviously a long game thatcomes with bearing with others
and being patient with othersand seeing goodness in long-term
situations.
(31:55):
But I think, if we're justtalking about starting tomorrow,
look for the good, look for thegood in all of it.
It's there.
Speaker 1 (32:05):
The other thing that you said, and you almost quoted
my line.
You said that God and thecharacter of God is good.
God is good and that shouldcause you to go out and do good.
What kind of good could we do?
Speaker 2 (32:29):
It's the small things .
Right, because when you thinkabout good it's so big.
Right, if you think about it,good is so big.
But what can I do?
What can I do tonight when I goto the airport to go home, I
could be courteous to thesecurity officers.
They have a hard job.
(32:50):
No doubt it's frustrating andpeople are frustrated with them,
but you could be.
You could just smile at someone, you could extend a kind word
to someone, you could listen.
Sometimes you get on the planeand, what's funny?
People don't usually talk onplanes anymore.
It's like they get on a planeand they're just in their own
(33:10):
world and they've got theirearbuds in and they're listening
to a podcast or something.
But if someone talks to you,instead of blowing them off,
respond listen.
Maybe they just need to getsomething off their chest and
you're an anonymous person thatcould hear this thing and give
them some sort of comfort.
I don't know.
There's so many things that wecould do, just small things,
(33:32):
little things, but that allpoint towards a greater good.
Speaker 1 (33:39):
Well, you've kind of stolen my last question.
But that said, how do you dogood?
Speaker 2 (33:56):
You're gonna make me cry, kenny, not trying to keep,
I know, but it's the thing is,it becomes something that you're
either hyper aware of orcompletely oblivious to.
Yeah, but there's a consciouschoice every day To see the good
(34:18):
in others and to be the goodthat you want to see in others.
Mm-hmm, it's hard.
We live in a hard world.
We live in a time where whenkindness is conditional and it's
hard To not respond with thesame thing that you get, and so
(34:40):
the way that I try to do good isTo grit my teeth and do the
thing that makes me the mostuncomfortable and I'm sharing.
Maybe I'm over sharing here,but I choose happiness.
Yeah, I, despite appearances,I'm not a naturally happy person
(35:02):
.
I Wake up with a monkey on myback every day.
It stays there.
Yeah, I think often about thedays of addiction, the hurt that
I produced, the heartache thatI caused, and I know that I've
been forgiven.
I talked about that.
Yeah, I know that, yeah, yeahbut man, he's there and To be
(35:27):
happy is Not a natural is not anatural thing that I do.
I choose it.
There are days that I don'twant to and I fight that battle.
I fight it and Most of the timeI win.
Sometimes I don't, and I haveto remember, to give myself
grace, that I'm human and thatI'm gonna have bad days and I'm
(35:48):
allowed to.
But man, the most good that Ican do is choose happiness,
choose kindness and then letthat infect others.
I ought to be the mostinfectious person In any room
that I'm in yeah and sometimes Ijust want to be the less Seen
(36:08):
person in any room that I'm in.
I just don't.
I want to be small andinvisible.
But I know that if I do thatI'm robbing myself of the
purpose that God gave me, andthat's to go make disciples.
Speaker 1 (36:20):
That's right, keith, I love you.
Thank you so much for doingthis man.
Speaker 2 (36:26):
I love you too, brother.
Thank you so much for lettingme.
It's always a joy.
I love talking to you, whetherthe microphones are on or not.
I know that I love theseconversations so much and I'm
just grateful we were recordingthis one today.
Me too.
Speaker 1 (36:41):
Thanks, man.
Speaker 2 (36:41):
Thank you, brother I.
Speaker 1 (36:46):
Always enjoyed talking to Keith.
He's somebody that I identifywith, even though our stories
are completely different.
I admire who he is and I admirewhat he does.
We had a great time and I'mglad that he was able to come
down to Tampa and speak for ourteens and also for all of us.
Keith is one of those guys thatmake me better because I know
(37:07):
him.
So thanks, keith, I appreciatethat.
As for the good thing I'mthinking about, I'm grateful for
people who support me,especially in times of need.
There's been a few friends thathave really helped me out a lot
in the past few weeks,especially my wife.
It's easy to take these peoplefor granted or not to thank them
(37:29):
, but they need to be thanked.
I Think it's important that weboth give gratitude, but also
learn how to accept gratitude aswell.
I'm gonna give my gratitude tomy wife, keith, to a lot of
people that have been very dearto me.
So until next time, let's begood and do good.
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