The thing about raising boys...a conversation with Phil Robertson and Josh Creel

What does it mean to raise boys and how is that different than raising girls. In this conversation, I talk to two fathers of sons and what they've learned about raising sons which help their children grow, and themselves.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
In this episode of Balancing the Christian Life, we
talk about raising boys.
Welcome to Balancing theChristian Life.
I'm Dr Kenny Embry.
Join me as we discover how tobe better Christians and people
in the digital age.
So my older son, jake, asked mea question the other day.

(00:22):
He'd been reading a book byMarcus Aurelius and he asked so,
dad, what do you make of theStoics?
First of all, I love thatquestion.
I know there are conclusionsthe Stoics reach that I don't
agree with, but the idea ofbeing someone who takes
responsibility for your owndevelopment is one of those
things I think both Stoicism andChristianity share in common.

(00:43):
I thought it was a smartquestion of Jake to see some of
the similarities that he wantedto talk out with his dad, but I
also knew that this was aconversation I would never have
with my daughters.
It's not because they're notbright.
Both my daughters, emma andAbby, are extremely smart but
there's just a differencebetween raising boys and girls,

(01:06):
and the idea that my son Jakewould want to talk about things
like philosophies or computersystems falls in line with what
my experience has been with both.
I believe men and women arejust different.
So what is that difference?
I mean from my own history, Iknow being a dad to sons is

(01:27):
different than being a dad todaughters.
I wanted to talk this out witha couple of guys who have raised
sons and, yes, I plan to do thesame for daughters at some
point, but that's not today.
First of all, I brought back agood friend, phil Robertson.
Phil has been evangelist for along time.
He's married to his wife,cheryl, and works with the

(01:47):
Valrico Church outside of Tampa.
His son, gray, has recentlymoved out and established his
own life.
Josh Creel has become a goodfriend and is the main
evangelist where I worship inTampa.
Josh has two boys, jared andEthan, who are 14 and 11.
And he lives with his wife,jana, right outside Tampa.

(02:07):
I want to talk today aboutraising boys because I think
there's a lot of differencebetween raising boys and raising
girls, and I picked both of youguys for very specific reasons.
Phil, you're somebody who has ason that is out of the nest but
not out of your life.
I think what, in some ways,being a parent to an adult child
is even more complicated thanraising young children.

(02:29):
Josh, you're in the thick of it.
How old are Jared and Ethan?

Speaker 2 (02:33):
Jared is 14 and Ethan is 11.
There you go.
And Phil, how old is Gray atthis point?

Speaker 3 (02:39):
Gray just turned 25.

Speaker 1 (02:41):
Nice To put my situation on the table.
I've got two and two.
I've got two boys, two girls.
Jake is 21 and Kant is 15.
I can speak for myself and Ifeel fairly confident I'm
speaking for you guys as well.
You become a parent before youare really ready to become a
parent.
What makes for a good parent?
That isn't overindulgent nor istoo strict.

Speaker 2 (03:03):
I was 31 when we had Jared.
What you said about not beingready to be a parent isn't
limited to age.
It's not just those who are 22or 21, however old they were.
I'm going to go straight toScripture here for my part of
the answer.
One of the passages that Ialways go to when thinking about
parenting and particularlyabout being a father, is what

(03:23):
God said of Abraham as far ashim being a father to his people
, and that was in Genesis 18 andverse 19.
And there's a couple of thingsthat kind of stick out to me.
God says I have chosen him.
Now, granted, this is Abraham.
God is choosing himspecifically, and I think all of
us, if we remembered that weare in some way chosen by God to

(03:48):
raise these young men and women.
I think that's borne out inScripture, because you look at
Malachi 2 and, granted, that'sthe passage we go to to talk
about divorce, and I really likehow the English standard reads
it there, because the point thatthe prophet is making is what
was God looking for in theseunions and why is God so upset

(04:12):
that the men at that time weredivorcing their spouses?
It says I was looking for godlyoffspring.
God has chosen Abraham andagain, in some ways, god has
chosen us.
I'm entrusting you with thesesouls, and so the first step,
then, is remember that thesearen't just my children, they're

(04:33):
the children God has given tome.
And then you move further in thetext.
So God chose Abraham that hemay command his children and his
household after him to keep theway of the Lord.
So I'm given authority.
God gives me that authority asa father, but he doesn't give me

(04:53):
the authority just to say, allright, kids, do what I want you
to do.
That's not the point.
The authority is given so thatI can instruct them in the ways
of the Lord, and hopefully thatkind of helps me to balance that
being too permissive or toostrict, because I want them to

(05:13):
respect my authority, because Iwant them to respect my
authority on small things, sothat when I get to the bigger
things, that I have some weightthere, because I'm now trying to
instruct them not just in OK,keep your room clean, but here's
how you ought to treat thatyoung lady, here's how you ought
to treat your teachers, and ondown the line.

(05:34):
So I go to Genesis 18, 19 justto kind of, I think, help strike
that balance.

Speaker 3 (05:41):
I appreciate exactly what Josh is saying, because
that is the foundation of anyrelationship, but especially a
relationship as parent withchild.
It's all going to go back toour humble walk with the Lord
and that we're willing to beinstructed ourselves.
We began this question, kenny,with respect to the idea of our

(06:05):
age and when we become parents.
Like Josh, I was 30.
And I think we all have thesepreconceived ideas of what we're
going to do as a parent, howwe're going to handle things,
and then that first day that youhave this child in your arms,
all that goes right out thewindow and you're just scared to

(06:28):
death.
I can literally rememberpraying beside Jill's bed saying
Dear Lord, please don't let memess this up.
I will confess, first andforemost, I lean on Cheryl.
Here's Cheryl, help me, you gotthis, just tell me what to do.
But at the same time, it's theidea of knowing that the Lord

(06:49):
has entrusted me with a soul andhe's not just going to throw me
out there without any guidance.
If I can lean back on hiswisdom, I will get some of those
answers.
I will see in stories whetherit's the prodigal son, whether
it's the way he related to David, whether it's the way the Lord

(07:10):
shows his relationship and hisown ministry and the way that he
relates to his disciples andeven those who are tax
collectors and sinners.
I will understand theboundaries of strict and
leniency by just looking at himand helping that carry over into
my relationship with mychildren.

(07:31):
Generally, we tend to parent inrelation to the way we were
parented, and that can be a goodthing and a bad thing.
If you had great parents, wellthen maybe you're going to have
some great principles andguidelines to follow.
If you had challenging parents,well then you're going to
simply parent on what you sawnot to do, and I get that.

(07:54):
But children are not easily cutand dry projects where here's
one way that's going to work forevery kid.
It's an art, not necessarily ascience at times, and we have to
respect the individualboundaries of each individual
heart.
And when they start havingpersonality, that's a wonderful

(08:16):
thing because they can begin tocommunicate with you.
But it's also a frustratingthing because immediately you
see all right, we've got anattitude problem.
All right, we have this problem.
Oh, we're going to have to workon this.
It's funny how quickly thatrears itself in our personality.

Speaker 1 (08:36):
I think one of the things that I would say and I
want to have to throw my hat inthe ring a little bit here,
because I've got kids and one ofthe things that I know is, if I
were to treat Emma the same wayI treat Jake, it's just not
going to work.
One of the things that I knowis I cannot force Emma to do
anything, but I can force Jaketo do things, and if you start

(08:58):
looking at all Jake's favoritethings, he didn't go into any
one of those things voluntarily.
Katie and I forced him into allof those things and then they
became his passions.
I can't do that same thing withEmma, but likewise I can't do
that with Abby either.
I can't force them into thosethings, but I can with Jake and

(09:20):
can't my two boys.
I don't know why, but I guessone of the things that I would
say is learn your kid, becausesome of them need to be forced
to things and when we come upwith these, just listen to your
child.
Some children you need tolisten to and some children you
need to say this is where you'regoing, you're going to be there

(09:43):
at 10 o'clock.
Tell me again what time you'regoing to be there, and some
people need that level ofinstruction.
Emma, on the other hand, hadthe alarm clock going three
hours before the event and wasvery much on top of things, and
again it's that my problem was Ithought I was going to have a
lot more influence on how mychildren turned out.

(10:03):
I ended up inheriting childrenthat already had a personality
and already had something going,and I basically had to, number
one, adapt and adjust to howthey already were.
Does that make sense to youguys, what I'm saying here?

Speaker 2 (10:22):
It does.
I get too much in theprovidential aspect of this.
But going back to even thatpoint about God is entrusting us
with these souls.
Well, maybe the reason why wehave these individual
personalities that we do isbecause God's also saying yeah,
your character needs a littlehelp here.
My first son is the chill son.

(10:45):
He's the son that always all Ihad to do was look at him
sternly and he'd kind of melt.
My second son is bless hisheart.
He's been the subject of many asermon illustration and we're
still working on him, and maybethat means just God's working on

(11:06):
me a little bit here.

Speaker 3 (11:07):
I think God definitely works on us through
our children.
There's no doubt about that.
But I think it's kind of one ofthose things too is all of us
have been fearfully andwonderfully made and each of us
are unique, totally different ina good way, and our

(11:30):
personalities whether we're rulefollowers or we're a little bit
of those who have a tendency tobe rebellious those are always
going to be blessings and cursesin those personalities.
Our role as a parent is firstof all and Sheryl and I did this
we sought to identify theunique personality of our

(11:53):
children.
This was actually before theEnneagram became a big deal,
which, by the way, I love theEnneagram.
I think it is very helpful in somany respects to learn but
nonetheless, when you learn yourchild's bent, when you learn
your child's natural behaviorand thinking process and you see

(12:16):
that, then you mold yourparenting to the needs of that
personality.
And I think ultimately itbegins with this and to me this
is the most important thing allparents need to realize
Parenting is a full time job.
It is a full time If you wantto be successful as a parent or

(12:37):
you want to be the best parentyou can be, you have to
recognize this is your firstmission filled.
This is your utmostresponsibility.
This comes before everythingelse and you need to treat it
like that.
And while you have thosewonderful moments where you can
celebrate your victories, you'regoing to have those moments
where it's greatly aggravating.
The issue isn't always with thechild.

(13:00):
It can be with us.
This is our moment to be whatthe Lord wants us to be to adapt
and help this child adapt intheir personality and emolding
that personality.
And we can't force them into aparticular personality.
You're not going to be able totake an Emma and Emma in many

(13:20):
ways is like our Jill.
You're not going to be able toforce them to relax and just go
with the flow.
That's not their bent.
They're the kind that get upreal early and I mean we
homeschooled and Jill would havegot up at four in the morning
if we let her to start workingon school and have it all
knocked out.
And she had everythingorganized and I'm like who is
this child?
Where did she get this?

(13:43):
In many ways it was awesome, butin another way I was like I'm
not getting up at four.
I'm not doing that with you.
You're going to have to stay inbed until a certain time.
But we had to respect her bentand try to let that work in her
favor and our favor.
But at the same time I'm notgoing to turn to Gray and say,

(14:04):
all right, gray, jill's gettingup at four, you need to do the
same.
That wasn't going to workeither, and so recognize those
blessings and curses, but it's afull time job and it was what's
interesting.
Also and I'm sure Josh isseeing this right now those
personalities in your boys aregoing to change as well and
you're going to have to adaptwith it, especially when they

(14:26):
get up into the puberty age andthen start girls that start
becoming part of their lives.
Okay, you're always callingaudibles, but it's enjoyable
nonetheless.
It's enjoyable nonetheless.
Parenting is a great joy.

Speaker 1 (14:41):
Well, it's a big challenge as well.
I think about my boys,especially right now, because
we're talking about boys.
There's so much of me that Isee in them, but where I get
really hung up is when I don'tsee me in them.
It's where I cannot relate towhat they're going after.
And I will say this I'm talkingto you guys.

(15:05):
Both of you guys have spouses,and if you are not in a position
where you have the other personthat's in that position, that's
in the trench with you, because, phil, you said this is a full
time job.
No, it's not.
It's three or four full timejobs, phil, a wild advocate of
it.
It takes a village, but itreally does take a lot more

(15:25):
people than just two parents,because between Katie and I we
probably make one saneindividual, but there are things
that Katie sees that I don't.
And if you're somebody who's ina oh I don't know single parent
situation, you need to startrecruiting the help of other
people because, as you say, thisis more than a full time job.

(15:48):
It takes a lot to basicallyoversee the development of one
competent person, much lesscreate one man.
Do you see what I'm sayingthere?

Speaker 3 (15:59):
Oh, act absolutely.
And I will say this I'm gladyou brought this up.
I can't imagine trying to dothis as a single parent.
So to all the single parentsout there, especially those that
are godly parents, god blessyou.
You have my great adoration inpraise and I want to help you in
every way that I can.

(16:19):
But I will say this although Ihave Cheryl, and she is a much
better parent, actually, she'sjust much better at everything
to me, and that's not a joke,that's just reality.
Yeah, but even though I haveher, we didn't rely on just each
other with rearing our children.
We're talking about boys.

(16:40):
So here's, here's my life andhere's what I wanted to pass on
to Our kids in my life.
I just went back and listed allthe people who had major impacts
on me that my parents put in mylife, yeah, to help mold me and
guide me.
I have my Papa John.
I have my dad, clear andforemost.

(17:02):
I have his voice with awonderful dad.
I had my scout master JamesHarris.
I had coach David boss, whopushed me and pushed me and
pushed me to wrestle, and I wasjust getting totally destroyed
all season until I got into thecity tournament and I made it to
the finals and when I lost inthe city finals, that godly man

(17:24):
walked out in the middle of thering and just hugged me and
wouldn't let me go.
I still remember that to thisday, the impact he had on my
life.
I had Glyn Greg, who was alwaystalking to me at church.
I had Greg buyers, who was oneof the college kids growing up
who always showed an interest inme.
I had John Kilgore, my campdirector, and I remember being

(17:44):
inspired by the camp friendswhen I came home from camp that
I needed to kick it up a notch.
I had West Moss Busbur, patricksales and my friends from FC.
I mean you could just go on andon and on.
And I think, if we'llunderstand his parents, our job
isn't always to do all the work.
If I can put my kids inenvironment where others can

(18:08):
help me in that work, not onlywill that take some load off my
shoulders but it'll also help mychildren grow and develop, and
especially my son and I will saythis a very dear friend of ours
who just became a part of ourlife a year and a half ago.
Dan Barker Passed away this weekwhen my son moved to Birmingham

(18:32):
and was trying to decide whereto go to church, and Dan Barker
had recently moved to there todo personal work at this stadium
.
Gray met Dan, dan took him inand Dan inspired him because
they had so much in common.
They both love basketball, theyboth love personal work.
The Dan became a majorinfluence in his life this past

(18:56):
year and a half and I just thankGod every day for men like Dan
Barker who inspire others, andespecially my children.
You do something nice for me.
I thank you.
You do something nice for mychildren.
I'm indebted to you for therest of my life.
Right, and to me that's.
That's one of the godly secretsthat God gives us.

(19:18):
I would say it does take avillage if you have the right
village and you put the rightpeople in that village to help,
mentor and guide your children.

Speaker 2 (19:32):
And that's that's to your point about.
You know our single parents andin particularly, you know what
we have at universities.
We've got more than a couple ofsingle mothers and they're
raising.
They're raising sons you knowthat their mothers are great
influences in their lives.
But what we as the men of thecongregation have to do is we

(19:54):
have to step in and help givesome guidance there as well and
help nurture those, those boysas well.
Because you know you go throughyour list and I'm just thinking
about the people that you knowhave made such an impact on my
sons.
You know we have one elder inparticular, tommy Matthews, who
has just had a huge impact on myson's life.

(20:14):
I love the fact that my boyslove Mr Phil.
I mean, I may not like Mr Philthat much, but my boys love Mr
Phil and you know they lookforward to camp for that reason
and you know, if we have anevent and Phil's coming, well
then that's just the biggestthing in the world because Mr
Phil is coming.
I try to, I try to hide theanimosity.

(20:35):
But that point about thevillage, you know that's that's
what God gives us, that's whatGod gives us in the church and
I'm thankful for those men whoplay the role in my life and,
like Phil is talking about those, those men who have taken an
interest in my sons.

Speaker 1 (20:57):
In my opinion, boys more than girls have to model.
They look toward people who aremodeling something they don't
do as well with instruction.
My boys love to basicallyrebelled instruction, but when
they see somebody older thanthem doing something, they will
usually copy and and ape whatthey're doing.
My girls are exactly theopposite.
If you tell them exactly whatto do, they'll usually follow it

(21:23):
to the letter, but often theyare in in.
They are intentionally notmodeling because they want to be
their own person and I thinkone of the things if you're a
single parent, realize thatagain.
I would say this is probablymore individual than it is, than
it breaks down by gender.

(21:43):
I think my boys are just peoplethat like to watch what's going
on around them, and my girlsare probably people who are,
again, like you call and say it,phil More rule followers.
They like to know what the ruleis so they can follow the rule.
But if you're somebody who's ina situation and let me be very

(22:05):
clear about this, it's oftenmothers I number one thank you,
thank you, thank you, thank you,thank you, thank you, thank you
, thank you.
God bless you in that endeavor.
And number two reach out,because men and women are
different and men and women seethings differently.
Take advantage of the peoplethat are in your congregations.
Take advantage of guys who arejust expressing an interest in

(22:29):
your kids, because there's amodeling in my opinion, that is
partially gender that boys, inmy opinion, are trying wanting
to look up.
That's why we have MichaelJordan, that's why we have
LeBron James as and you know mygirls, they know the singers,
but they're not trying to model.

(22:50):
They might, they might want toget the same dress or hairstyle,
but other than that, they'renot trying to get the model
their lives after these people.
My boys are, though, and theywon't say that do you?
Do you agree with that?

Speaker 2 (23:03):
I'm gonna go ahead and confess here.
Whenever it comes to anydiscussion of the difference
between sons and daughters, I'mout because I don't know, and in
fact, just last week, janna,looking at an interaction I was
having with a four year old girlat church, said immediately
after interaction it's good wedidn't have daughters, because

(23:25):
they would wrap around theirfinger, which is probably true.
So I have to have to turn all,all differences between sons and
daughters to you guys.

Speaker 1 (23:35):
Well then this is all on you.

Speaker 3 (23:36):
Phil.
Well, I can only speak for mytwo kids in that regard, but
that would be appropriate forJill and Gray.
Jill is truly the rule followerof you.
Can tell her exactly what to do, but you can't be from it.
She doesn't.
Like you've said, this is, thisis the way it is, if you've
said it.
And Gray was just so amazing.

(23:59):
I never had to put together aChristmas toy Because I would
have run half the fun for him.
That dude can sit down and hecan follow, he can see the
instructions.
He knocks it out, and I thinkthat's also the way he learns is
he can see that and grow to it.
If you would, let me just kindof get into sure what I've

(24:22):
noticed, though.
I know we don't want to talkabout culture and the failures
of culture, but we definitelyhave A father crisis in our
world, and you can always seethat there is going to be a
great challenge in thedevelopment of any child when
the father is absent or thefather is not being what God is

(24:45):
called him to be.
There can be a lot of fatherswho are actually in the home who
are more detrimental to thegrowth of a child than it would
have.
They would just get outsometimes, but nonetheless, we
have a father crisis.
What that does is it puts ourboys especially the disadvantage
to grow, to see what God iscalled them to be.

(25:07):
Because I see boys.
I see boys today in great needof someone who will hang out
with them, who will rough housewith them so that they can get
out that aggression and playwith them, to be adventurous
with them and challenge them andbe there through the challenge

(25:31):
to grow and develop, whetherit's mentally or physically,
emotionally or socially.
I think boys find greatconfidence when they can win,
when they can overcome, whenthey can climb that mountain,
and they need somebody in theirlife who's always going to be

(25:52):
putting that mountain in frontof them and either climbing it
with them or helping themachieve those things, because
boys need achievement.
Yeah, and that's one of thethings that we definitely try to
do it camp, and you can see thetransformation in these young
men when they are put to thechallenge and we celebrate them

(26:14):
almost like Greek gods when theyovercome some great physical
challenge and do something.
But you can just see theircountenance, even the way they
walk, change when they'veovercome something and they've
made it to the top and our boysneed that.
I think God's given men theneed to win, the need to be

(26:36):
adventurous, and we need fatherswho are going to help them
develop that and use that in away that glorifies him and
becomes of service to their ownfamilies as they grow up.

Speaker 2 (26:48):
Yeah, I saw that with my oldest Phil's camp
illustration that that's whereit was.
He got into this cabin wherethey started wrestling his first
year.
He lost his first match and Ididn't even know this, but for
the next year he's doing pushups and sit ups in his room
every night.
When I find out, like what, Imean that's great, why are you

(27:10):
doing?
It's like I don't want to loseand he didn't.
He didn't win, but I mean hewon his first match the next
year but he didn't go throughand like win the whole thing.
But he is so proud of that andthat achievement and I tell you
on this discussion, I thinkcause Phil's absolutely right.
There's a crisis of fatherhoodand I think what you even see in

(27:31):
popular culture is because ofthat.
There are some voices that havecome to the forefront that are
really getting a lot ofattention.
The joke has been told and Ithink it's somewhat accurate.
If you did, a Venn diagram ofJordan Peterson and Andrew Tate
followers is a perfect circleand the point was that, well,

(27:55):
those guys are both advocatingsimilar precepts take
responsibility, be a man.
Andrew Tate leans fully intothe toxic masculinity, but what
Jordan Peterson is not.
But the core message is in someway the same and, of course,

(28:16):
that's what I've got to do withwith my sons is not just the
yeah, we're gonna, we're gonnaachieve, we're gonna win, we're
gonna be responsible and we'regonna take ownership, we're
gonna put effort in that.
I sat down the beginning of thispast summer and said boys, one
of the main things I can everget across to you in life is try

(28:37):
, work hard and try.
If you just do that, that'sgonna mean a lot in your life.
We start when they're young.
Okay, you need to beresponsible for the dog, you
need to be responsible for yourroom, but the point is we're
trying to raise them so that, asthey get older, they're
responsible for the biggerthings.

(28:57):
They're responsible now fortheir choices and entertainment.
They're responsible for youknow how they're gonna act
toward us.
That's that's what's missing inso many lives and that's the
task that I have in front of meis how do I make them
responsible?

Speaker 1 (29:15):
I think and rotate has been really good at
diagnosing a problem and isgiven everyone the wrong
solutions.
I am definitely somebody who ismy.
My bias is definitely towardJordan Peterson.
Everything he's written.

Speaker 2 (29:29):
I tried reading one book and I was like I can't.

Speaker 1 (29:34):
But the thing about it is I like I like the place
that Jordan Peterson goes withthis, which is that idea of
adopting responsibility,basically take the blessing of
having responsibility, and Ithink especially for boys and I
don't know why this is true, butbut I do think that it is true.
I think boys do better whenthey adopt responsibility.

(29:55):
Jack a willing will talk, willcall talk about extreme
ownership.
I will say this I think Jack awilling goes a little bit too
far in that direction becausesome things are not in your
control.
But the things that I thinkthat I would say is the thing
that I like about what Jackwilling has to say Is is that if
you treat everything as if itwas under your control, you will

(30:19):
be far more powerful and andfar better off than pretending
like everything is out of yourcontrol, because then you're
arguing for your own victim hood.
And I guess one of the thingsthat I would say in this kind of
goes directly to one of thethings I want to talk about.
You guys have already invokedthe term toxic masculinity.
I'm not interested in in Intaking on all the things that

(30:45):
that society has said.
This is what's wrong with men Iwould much rather address what
men need to do, right, but let'sgo ahead and give it its do.
What is toxic masculinity andhow have men been dangerous or
have they been Unhelpful in insociety?
I'm?

Speaker 3 (31:05):
not as up on Andrew Tate.
I do know Listen to a lot ofhis stuff.

Speaker 1 (31:12):
Bill, you're the perfect person for Andrew.

Speaker 3 (31:14):
Tate.
I mean, I know who he is, but Iactually have to confess I
probably listen more to JordanPeterson and I'm kind of drawn
to his message on responsibilityand whatnot.
But I, society's toxicmasculinity is just like a
shotgun.
It's all over the place.

(31:34):
Yeah, and the challenge is nolonger is dad, the father
defined?
I know we kind of mock thefifties Ozzie and Harriet, my
three sons and all thosecaricatures that you saw of the
men in those days but one thingyou have to see even in society

(31:57):
there was a role, there was adefinition, there was an
expectation of fatherhood.
That's totally out the windownow, which is so sad.
I would turn the attention backto just looking at scripture
when you listen to, like Solomonspeaking to his son and the
proverbs my son, listen to me,listen to me what you're seeing

(32:23):
in the world around you, and Ithink even in that day and age
they struggled with the toxicmasculinity.
I think would be fair and yousee that, especially when
Israel's takes a nosedivespiritually.
But he's like listen to me,don't fall victim to the
illusion of what you're seeingin manhood around you.

(32:44):
This is manhood that you seekwisdom, that you seek to
surround yourself with godlypeople that you seek to.
First of all, takeaccountability for yourself so
that you understand.
This path over here is adangerous path, like one of my
favorite verses and I share itwith the kids at camp and this

(33:06):
speaks to that responsibility isProverbs 426.
Ponder the path of your feet,then all your ways will be sure.
You can take whatever path youwant, but you better think about
where this path is going to goand you're responsible.
You're responsible for the paththat you take, but there is a

(33:28):
path that can lead torighteousness, there is a path
that can lead to fulfillment,there is a path that can lead to
godly leadership.
And that's on you.
That is on you and you get tochoose that.
You mentioned jocco Willnick.
I actually had gray read and Iencouraged all the young men at
church when we were inGainesville to read extreme

(33:50):
ownership.
You need to read this, you needto understand.
It's all on you.
And then we studied fromEzekiel, especially the proverb
of sour grapes.
You know that's not us.
We don't put the blame onanybody else.
It's now on you.
And and I think, if you want tojust look at what's toxic,

(34:12):
toxic is when our young men arenot taught that they're
responsible for all their ownactions, for all their own
thoughts, for all their ownbehaviors and For all their own
consequences.
It still comes back to you andyou.
You need to understand that onething that a man will always do

(34:36):
is take responsibility for hisactions or the environment he's
in.
He may not been the one whocaused all the problems, but he
can be the one that can helppeople Fight through those
consequences.
Be the man and step up and lead.

Speaker 2 (34:53):
Yeah, by the way, since I'm the one that brought
up Andrew Tate, let me just makethis clear.
That is in no way.
If you've never heard of theguy, please don't go look him up
.
What an absolute tool and whatan absolute disgrace to manhood.
So that's that.
That was not why I brought himup.
But you know, phil, you broughtup, you know we think about the

(35:14):
help father who is portrayed inthe 50s and you don't need to go
back that far.
I mean, there's a few yearsbetween us.
But I remember Thursday night,appointment television in my
house was the Cosby show.
Now, granted, that's got itsown baggage now, but if you just
look at it, from the way thefather is portrayed in that show
, yeah, he's lovable, yeah, he'sgoofy, but he's also the father

(35:38):
and and well, yeah, what?
But yeah, yeah, competent he's,he's a, he's a surgeon.
But you know what it'sinteresting about?
The same time that showfinishes run Married with
children, becomes probably themost popular television show on
television.
And that's a show.
When my parents called mewatching it, they grounded me
for a month Because it's theexact opposite message in so

(36:01):
many ways and that fathers anabsolute idiot.
If we're being honest, I don'tknow that man's ever gotten Our
roles correct just on our own.
Because even if we go back tookay, yeah, let's go back to,
you know, when the when the manwas the man and he ruled his,
his castle, well, that reallycould devolve into Treating the

(36:25):
wife, or treating them, themother, as second-class.
Well that's not scriptural?
No, when God made man in thebeginning, he made them male and
female.
That that's from the beginning.
That's Genesis one.
When you look at what God wantsin the home, it's not this oh,
here's, here's the man and he's.
He's great and he's.
You know, rules over all andthe wife just kind of takes

(36:47):
whatever's come.
No, that's that's.
That's not scriptural either.
What is scriptural to whatwe've been saying is Leadership
is placed on you, responsibilityis placed on you.
You're responsible for yourchoice, your response, for the
consequences, all the thingsthat Phil just went through.
That's what is biblical andwhat we need to stress.

Speaker 1 (37:08):
I Think the other thing that I would say about
that is and you guys are welcometo disagree with this there are
some characteristics that thatare uniquely men.
We generally, like Phil wastalking about, we love
competition.
I, every guy I know, with theexception of just a few of us,
me included probably has asports team that they're pulling

(37:30):
for.
They're not pulling for thatsports team to do okay, they're
pulling for that sports team towin, and that that idea of
competition is something that wekind of live on, that we thrive
on.
The competition can be taken toan extreme.
Guys are also of this ilk wherethe idea of I don't know being

(37:52):
having status there's only onepicture on the baseball team and
everybody wants to be thepitcher or the quarterback or
the most prestigious Position inwhatever sports team that
you're in, and it's okay to havethat ambition, but every guy
knows there's only going to beone and I don't resent the guy
who gets it, I just want it andthe.

(38:13):
Again, that goes right back tocompetition.
We love competition and wegenerally respect competitors.
That's not the same with women.
Women are different than thanus in that and I think one of
the things that that Competitioncan be taken to an extreme and
you need to avoid the extreme.

(38:33):
But by the same token, you haveto recognize that men just love
competition.
Likewise, guys like beingaggressive.
That has an extreme on that end, which Aggression that turns
into violence.
And, by the way, my boys lovewrestling every once in a while.

(38:58):
Is that violent?
Yeah, to a certain extent it is.
Safety in my family is not thenumber one concern, because some
things are intrinsically unsafeand I want my children to
engage in it, because safetymeans you don't know what the
outcome is going to be.
If you knew what the outcomewas going to be, that's safe,

(39:20):
but you don't grow in safety,you grow in discomfort and in
risk-taking, and thatintrinsically means you have to
launch out, you have to choose,do something different.
Are there stupid risks?
Yes, should you avoid those?
Yes, but and again, this is oneand I got this from Jordan

(39:43):
Peterson women are usuallyReally good at raising young
children, because young childrendon't understand what an
unreasonable risk is.
When they get older, they beginto understand what an
unreasonable risk is men.

(40:04):
There's something that we callrough-and-tumble play, and
Usually it's the fathers thatintroduce that to the children,
and usually at the objections oftheir mothers.
And Children needrough-and-tumble play so they
can learn what a reasonable riskis and what an unreasonable

(40:25):
risk is.

Speaker 3 (40:26):
Oh yeah, actually this was so evident with our
kids every night at bedtime.
Jill went to bed with aprincess carry, so she would
stand on the end of the couchand she would let herself fall
backwards and I would catch herand carry her, like a princess
to bed, you know, and put her inbed, as we said, our parents.

(40:47):
Gray, on the other hand, thatwas not the way he's going to
bed and Personally, if he everwanted it, I would just let him
fall.
He would not get that.
Yeah, he went to bed with thebronking buck Right, that's
where he jumped on dad's backand it was the bronking buck
banging off the walls all theway down the hallway to his room
.
Mom would get mad at us becausepictures would come off the

(41:10):
wall sometimes, you know, but itwas.
It was a totally differentscenario, and so we also, every
night before he went to bed,generally, we played nerf hoot
in his room and we did it alittle different.
There's no rules, there's nocalling fouls, it's just

(41:30):
whatever you got to do to get itin the hoop.
That's what you do, and so itled to some bloody noses, it led
it to bumps and bruises.
It definitely led to a greatdisadvantage to me when he
realized I'm not going for theball anymore, I'll just go for
dad's head because he goes, hegoes and I know how to rule the
situation and it was a blast.

(41:50):
But it was just the idea thatthat aggression, that
competition is there and we haveto mold that yes, in a godly
way To use it well.
I mean, the first time yourkids in a sport and he wants to
win real bad and loses, and yousee that bad sportsmanship come
out which His father knows verywell and it struggled with his

(42:14):
entire life.
I see it in him and I'm able toimmediately try to start
molding that Because I want himto be competitive.
He's now in sales.
That's a very competitive jobmarket and he wants to be number
one and that's exactly what Iwant him to be.
You know, you learn to usethose.

(42:35):
How would you say just Godgiven Characteristics, but try
to use them in a godly way.
And so we as men need to bemindful of the blessing in the
curse scenario, even with thatAggression and action.
And so men are more prone tohave hobbies hunting, fishing,

(42:55):
golf, things of that nature,which is all finding good, but
if it starts dominating yourlife and taking you away from
your wife and kids, then it'sbad.
Same thing with cheering for asports team.
I I'm gonna command Josh.
He's wearing this Red Alabamasweatshirt.
I have become a big fan of NickSaban.

(43:17):
I'm not an Alabama fan.
My wife went to Auburn and if Idon't say war eagle, she
doesn't feed me.
But Nick Saban.
Nick Saban has has learned theart of motivation and doing
things the right way.
And and one of the things thatis just stuck with me is this

(43:40):
Highly motivated people do notlike unmotivated people, and
unmotivated people and lowerachievers don't like highly
motivated people and highachievers.
It's not gonna work together andyou have to decide if you're
gonna get on that bus or youneed to get off that bus.

(44:03):
And so when it comes to ouryoung men, we want them to be
high achievers, but they have torecognize high achievers are
not gonna like low achievers.
And so this is that competitionopportunity to use it and use
it well.
And if you're not gonna get onthe bus of high achievement,
then get off.

(44:23):
With that comes anunderstanding that not only is
it on me, but also I'm also on ateam.
I'm not an island to myself.
God's given me these wonderfulpersonalities to be aggressive,
to be tough, to fight, to win.
But I'm also on a team and thatteam is my family, that team is

(44:46):
God's people, that team isthose who I'm in relationship
with and those are what I needto win first and foremost.
Those relationships and theteam concept me come second.

Speaker 2 (44:58):
I really think it's interesting to how different
endeavors allow for competitionand growth.
You go to the team, and so myyoungest son just made his
middle school flag football team.
Well, he's an Auburn fanbecause, well, for two reasons,

(45:20):
my parents were Auburn fans, myfather was a veterinarian, he
went to Auburn, and so that'sthe first reason.
The second reason is it annoysme.
So, that's why my youngest sonis an Auburn fan.

Speaker 3 (45:31):
Man.
I just became a huge fan ofEthan, even more so.
He has shot up.

Speaker 2 (45:37):
So he's already, though, again just made his
middle school flag football team, but he's already determined he
will be the Auburn quarterbackone day.

Speaker 3 (45:46):
There you go.

Speaker 2 (45:47):
Well, okay, that's great, but, of course, what I'm
trying to do is I'm trying tobring him back down to earth and
say son, I don't know thatyou're gonna play quarterback
ever, right?
What you can do is you can goout and do your best job, and if
that means you're on defenseand you're pulling flags off of
the other team, then you'vehelped the team.
So there's that of working fora greater good.

(46:12):
My older son's a.
He's in the band, and sothere's that part.
He wants to do his best,because if he does his best, the
band sounds better, and so he'spart of a whole, but he's also
one that likes individualchallenges, and that's kind of
something a transformation Imade in my life.

(46:33):
I was a football player.
I went to the University ofAlabama.
I hadn't gotten that out of mysystem, so I played rugby for a
year.
So that's a team sport that Ido not recommend for anybody.
If you think football is bad,rugby is infinitely worse, and
so when I got that out of mysystem, though, and I started
running, okay, and you can goand you can enter a 5K, you can
enter 10K and you can try to win, but that's not why I found

(46:57):
satisfaction in running If I didbetter than I did the last time
, if I reached my potentialright.
That's what I got out ofrunning.
I was never going to be the onewho won the 5K or won the 10K,
but I could beat my time fromthe last time and that's what I

(47:18):
found in my older son too.
He'll find a challenge andhe'll want to do it.
Like we've done two toughmutters.
I have no interest in doing atough mutter, but he wants to
and he wants to do it becauseit's a challenge to him and he
wants to see if he can do betterat that.
So I think we can find allthese things in life that

(47:41):
emphasize these same principlesof one.
You're gonna have to beresponsible for your effort,
you're gonna have to put theeffort in and in a team setting.
That effort is important foreverybody.
But there's also the individualmotivation.
You put the effort in so thatyou can achieve what is your
utmost potential, and there'sspiritual ramifications for that

(48:03):
as well.
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (48:05):
Let me, can I piggyback on that just a little
bit, josh, of course that's anexcellent point.
With respect to you have nodesire to do a tough mutter, but
your son does.
And so what you do as a parent,especially as a dad, you do it.
You do it for the sake of yourson.
I mean, it's like the same waya dad would set and dress up for
a tea party with his littlegirl and put on the tea era and

(48:29):
totally go all in.
Well, you need to have thatsame kind of attitude with your
son to do the things thatchallenge him and even if it's
not something you want to do,you do it for his sake so that
he can experience that thrill ofachievement.
I think that's what motivatesboys more than anything else is

(48:49):
that thrill of victory, thethrill of achievement.
And I know we don't want tospend our time on video games,
but video games rob our sons oftrue achievement.
I'm not saying they're all badand I think it's okay to play in
limited fashion, but a boyespecially needs to have

(49:09):
physical activity.
He needs to have physicalachievement and we don't need to
be using the cop out of justletting them just go off to
their rooms and find that insome kind of world that it's not
real.
They need to experience in realtime action and physical
activities, whether it is banned, whether it is a sports,

(49:30):
whether it is running orwhatever, and dads need to be a
part of that.
You do that together with yourson, and that's where it goes.
I mean, for Gray, he and Iplayed golf until we moved to
Gainesville and so he had nodesire to play anymore and I'm
like, oh, come on, this isawesome.

(49:53):
No, I don't think he decided hewanted to play basketball.
Oh, I'm terrible at basketball.
So we start playing all thetime and he on the basketball
team.
And then he got into physicalfitness, because that's what the
guys did in Gainesville, andMark Lloyd Jr is a great
influence in his life, and sonow he's into lifting and so I
change.
I gotta change because I wantto do these things with my son,

(50:14):
and now that he's 25, he's backinto golf.
Woo, you know, but the thing isyou need to be what they need
you to be, to grow as men andlearn to develop as a man, and
part of that is the opportunityto achieve something, to win at

(50:36):
something, to improve atsomething that's being a man.

Speaker 1 (50:41):
One of the things that I'm gonna say, phil, is I
completely agree that we do needto get behind, out from behind
screens, I think, one of thethings that every organization
that has an online presence.
They are basically incentivizedby having more and more of your
attention, and they will neverwillingly try to get rid of for
your attention or have less ofyour attention.

(51:02):
That is their motivationFacebook, instagram, any of the
in the gaming platforms the moreyou give your attention to them
, the more financial incentivethey have to keep you, and so I
completely agree with that.
One of the things that I wouldsay, though, was one of my sons.
What I didn't recognize thatwas going on is he was playing
his PlayStation every night witha bunch of boys from church,

(51:27):
and, honestly, the game becamebackground to them, having
conversations online.
Now they would not recognizethis, but a lot of the things
that they were talking about inthe game system had more to do
with how they were growing up.
They were getting a lot ofsupport from their peers, and,
granted, that's the, in manyways, the blind leading the

(51:49):
blind, because they don't haveanswers.
They have more questions, and,at some points, it just makes
more sense for them to be ableto ask a stupid question in a
non-threatening environment, andI think that's what's going on
a lot there.
That said, some of these gamesI'm thinking of the Call of Duty
game, which is basically justnon-stop violence, but I also
understand boys like violence,and I was appreciative of the

(52:14):
fact that he was talking overwhat was going on in high school
with a bunch of other boys thathe was going to church with.
Do I think that there'sdefinitely times that that goes
overboard?
Yes, when he has no moremuscles left, when he doesn't
know what the sun looks like,when grass is a foreign object
to him.
I completely agree.

(52:35):
Everybody, I think, would dobetter off if they would
eventually go outside, look atthe sun and touch grass, because
I think that grounds them in areal world.
But I also see that there areadvantages to it that I didn't
understand when they were doingit, when they were playing games
.
That said, realize that everytechnology that you have has an

(52:58):
upside and a downside and youhave to learn how to moderate
those technologies.
You see what I'm saying.

Speaker 2 (53:03):
Not that this is Phil's absolutely right the
physical competition.
The physical is certainly moreimportant, but the video games
that I would play with my kidsthere's a lot of Mario Kart,
because I used to be good atMario Kart and guess what?
I never let my kids win.
They beat me all the time.
Now when we play but that wasagain one of those hurdles Okay,

(53:27):
dad's good at this, I'm not asgood at this, so dad's not going
to just lay down and let youwin.
When you beat me, you beat me,and when you beat me, okay,
you've accomplished something.
Same thing with pool, samething with ping pong, whatever
it is.
I'm not just going to let youwin so that you can say, oh, I

(53:48):
won and I feel good about myself.
No, no, there's a challenge.
I'm bigger, I'm stronger, I'veplayed this more than you have.
You get to where you can beatme and then you have something
to be proud of.
That's right.

Speaker 3 (53:59):
Well, and Kenny, going back to your video game
analogy, it still goes back tothe community that you're with
and I concede, I concede videogames.
You're a part of life now and Icertainly am not one to just
throw everything out the windowand say it's all bad.
But it's going to go back toyour community and who's

(54:20):
motivating you and what I wantour young men to realize.
You're going to become theaverage or the product of the
five people or the people thatyou hang out with the most.
That's who you're going to beand that's what you will become,
and so you need to recognizethat.

(54:41):
And it goes back to you know,you got to surround yourself
with godly people and if you'resurrounding yourself with good
people and you're playing avideo game for maybe an hour a
day, or you're sitting down withyour friends and you all are
able to communicate, you knowthat way I know Gray does that
even now with all his buddiesfrom Florida College.
They're all scattered all overthe nation and so one of their

(55:04):
ways to get together is they'llplay a game and they can
communicate with each otherduring that game.
Well, I'm definitely not goingto dog on that in any way.
That's great Cause.
He's hanging around good people.
But he's also with people whoare high achievers, whether
they're in medical school rightnow, whether they're management

(55:25):
and construction companies,whether they're working in a
business, you know.
Whatever they're allresponsible individuals, he's
still with a good community.

Speaker 1 (55:35):
We often try to appropriate the Bible to be a
scientific manual, a historymanual, a history book, a
philosophy book, all thesedifferent things.
And one of the things that Iwould say is the Bible is not an
instruction manual on how toraise children.
It is basically a revelation ofGod to us, in other words,
talking about the character ofGod.

(55:56):
That said, there are somedirect applications that come
from understanding the characterof God and what it means to be
a father to boys.
What parts of Christianity needto be supplemented with street
smarts, and what parts ofChristianity do we need to start
sacrificing parts of ourselvesso that we're better at being

(56:17):
dads to boys?

Speaker 2 (56:19):
When I first heard this question I was like man,
what do you exclude?
So I just honed it down to oneverse, and it's not a
complicated one, it's just 1Corinthians 13.
Now abide these three faith,hope and love.
And I'm thinking, okay, whatdoes that mean for a son, a man,

(56:43):
and the first with faith?
That means you've got to learnto trust others.
And as much as we're looking atachievement and doing our best
and being a man, you'reultimately nothing without God.
So that's what he's got to knowFaith in God, faith in God's

(57:07):
people.
That's gonna be essential formaking it through this life.
Hope, well, what God providesis infinitely better.
And you look at again theproblems with masculinity and
even manhood and how parents areeven seeing their kids, their

(57:27):
sons, kind of they lose them to,sometimes radical groups.
It's because they're being toldthat here's the solution for
this society.
You buy into this politicalparty, you buy into this
movement and we're going to fixthings.
No, they're not.

(57:47):
No one ever will.
But hope God's providingsomething better.
I don't want my sons to beangry young men, because I see
way too many angry young men.
I see way too many angry oldmen.
I don't want that for them, andwhat I see in the angry old and

(58:08):
young men is they just don'thave any hope.
They don't think that God'sgonna see us through this and
that God's providing somethingbetter.
So I've got to get Matt and, ofcourse, to my sons and then, of
course, the others love and letGod define that of what love is
you know, love for God and ourfellow man.
Now where the street smarts comein is how do you apply those

(58:31):
principles to the particularcircumstances and cultural
context in which we live?
Now?
My oldest son is in publicschool.
We have based where our kids goto school, on their demeanor,
on their character, and not thatone's better than the other.
Just we.

(58:52):
You know public schoolsomething he's handling okay.
We've got our younger son in aprivate school, the one that
Florida College is associatedwith, and there's a reason for
that.
So, but our older son has facedthings in middle and high school
that never was even brought upin my upbringing.

(59:15):
He's got some real challengeswith you know some of the people
in his class and theirworldview and what they buy into
Faith, open love.
Do you trust God?
Do you trust the direction I'mtrying to take you?
Do you hope that there'ssomething better and that that

(59:38):
God's gonna see you through this, and can you love even those
who are very different or nottrying to live the way that
you're trying to live?
But you can at least think thebest of them, hope the best for
them, try to serve them in someway and maybe make an impact on
their life.
That's where the street smartscome in, at least.

(59:58):
As I'm thinking of the question, you may have had something
else in mind there.

Speaker 3 (01:00:02):
Well, after listening to Josh's answer, I don't like
mine anymore.
This is definitely better, butI will go ahead and go with what
I've got here instead of tryingto change on the fly what
jumped out to me when I thoughtof this?
I know and I understand thatthe Bible isn't specifically an

(01:00:23):
instruction manual to parents,but in many ways it's just a
manual not only of life, but ofour Father Himself and of His
expectations and His love for us.
And the one thing that we,Cheryl and I, try to do, or try
to do and still do, with ourkids now that they're older and

(01:00:45):
I think your verses and yourfocus change as they grow and
develop now that they're adultsOur focus has been James 1, 26
and 27.
And what you find in there isnot only a description of true
religion.
You find a description of whatis a true godly person.

(01:01:07):
If anyone thinks he's religiousand does not bridle his tongue,
their religion is useless.
But pure and undefiled religionbefore the Father is this to
visit orphans and widows intheir time of trouble and to
keep oneself unspotted from theworld.
And so what you see there isjust the threefold

(01:01:28):
responsibility we all have inour life.
We have a duty to self,self-control.
Learn to bridle your tongue andit's not just the tongue.
How you use your body, how youuse your resources, how you use
your time, your energy, yourmoney.
You know you control that.
That's your duty to self andyou use the Spirit's guidance in

(01:01:48):
the Word and in your life andin your heart to become a person
who is excelling atself-control.
You challenge yourselfphysically, you grow in these
areas, so you have a duty toself.
The second thing you have a dutyto others.
You're not an island toyourself and you especially have
a duty to those who arehelpless and in need the orphan

(01:02:12):
and the widow your time and yourmoney.
You're not just making money inyour professions now to pay
your own bills.
You're doing it as the Lordinstructs us, so that you'll
have something to give to others.
And you give to others yourtime, your energy.
You have a duty to others.
And then you have a duty to Godthat you live a sanctified life

(01:02:33):
that is not consumed and, youknow, spotted by the world, but
you are sanctified.
You have a higher calling and Ithink when we can help our
children see that that they havea higher calling, they have a
higher purpose.
I think that gives them themotivation to see and understand

(01:02:54):
not just who their father is,but who he's called them to be,
and ultimately that's what we'retrying to get into our kids'
hearts.
Your father is God.
I'm just a steward of your soul.

Speaker 1 (01:03:06):
I think one of the things that I would say and
again, you guys are welcome todisagree with this the Bible is
a series of and this sounds likeit's reductive, and I'm not
trying to make it simpler thanit is it's a series of truisms
and things that actually willguide your life, and they will
be very good guides for yourlife, but when you look at what

(01:03:29):
life looks like today, the Biblehas nothing to say about the
Internet.
The Bible also has nothing tosay about online pornography,
but that does not mean thatGod's okay with that.
It also means that, as a father, you're going to have to
interpret some of these thingsfor your children so they
understand what the Bible meansby this that these truisms, this

(01:03:50):
instruction, has to haveapplication put to it, and part
of your job as a father is tomake these applications stick.
And, by the way, one of thethings that we've talked about
the idea of the addictive natureof online everything.
Now being able to go anywherewithout the availability of a
screen is something that, on theone hand, makes me very happy

(01:04:11):
because I don't get lost anymore, because Google tells me where
to go.
I am so bad with maps and I'mso bad with navigation that I
have been so thrilled thatGoogle knows where I am and how
far I am from where I need to be.
Thank you, google.
But by the same token, the samething that's in my pocket can
waste my time, can show meimages, and my son's images that

(01:04:35):
they do not need to be privy toAgain.
I'm going back to that idea ofpornography, because I think
it's one thing that children,especially younger boys, don't
understand how dangerous thatcan become, because it's
something that number one.
They're not exposed to it andthen all of a sudden they learn

(01:04:58):
about sex and then theyimmediately have access to
everything that is wrong aboutsex and I think that's a danger,
especially for boys.
I think the danger is differentfor girls.
I think it is basicallyreputation and status and
basically putting themselves instories where they are well, I

(01:05:20):
mean to say this one way.
I mean it's a romance novel.
They want to be basically themain character in a romance
novel, which I think it's finein some ways, but in some ways
that loses what they want andwhat they aspire to.
But for boys it's different,because boys usually go after
instant gratification, which, bythe way, I'm not against.

(01:05:43):
I'm not saying that I'm forpornography, but I think one of
the things in a goodrelationship there's somebody
that needs to be able to learnhow to set the right goal and
there's somebody that needs tobe able to say this is the
journey, enjoy the journey, andboth of those things are
important.
I think men generally basicallysay enjoy the journey, and I
think women are usually betterat saying this is where we need

(01:06:06):
to end up, and I think you needboth sides of that coin.
You need to appreciate whereyou are and also appreciate
where you're trying to go.
But when it comes to this, thisidea of boys are in especially
a dangerous spot, becauseinstant gratification is what we
usually like.
Pornography is one of thethings that can take them down a

(01:06:27):
really dark road.
What advice would you give forfathers?
What advice would you give forthose of us who are trying to
raise boys, who probably don'trecognize where this is headed?

Speaker 2 (01:06:40):
Something that I've resolved to do, not only as a
father, but as a preacher, is wewant to be a principled people,
and I think in a lot of thesediscussions whether it be
pornography or fornication orwhatever we want to talk about
I've been pretty heavy handed onthat.
Don't do this, don't do this,don't do this.

(01:07:01):
Okay, and that's perfectlyright to say, yeah, don't do
this.
This is not right in the eyesof God, but you go to that
passage in Hebrews 13 when hetalks about that God is going to
judge fornicators andadulterers.

(01:07:24):
The first thing God says, though, is that marriage is honorable
and the marriage bed isundefiled, that the greater
principle here isn't don'tengage in sex before marriage or
don't look at pornography.
Those are principles.
Those are things we ought totake in life, but the greater

(01:07:45):
principle is there's somethingreally really good about
marriage, and why pornography isso dangerous is because it is
perverting people's viewpoint ofwhat marriage is and what
marriage can be and should be.
So what I have to do first is,before I just get to the don't

(01:08:07):
do this and don't go down thisroad, I need to model and I need
to instruct.
Okay, here's what's really good.
Yeah, here's why you don't wantto go down this path, because
God set the path over here that,if you'll go down, this path is
ultimately going to beinfinitely better than this
other one you were thinkingabout going down.

Speaker 3 (01:08:29):
Right.
I love the way Josh has phrasedthat and put that, because that
is something we try to do withthe boys, especially at camp,
and I think this is somethingparents have got to understand.
Boys are visual, men are visual, and we need to recognize that.
Now, and I will say this we geta lot of challenges sometimes

(01:08:53):
for our dress code at camp or inother activities that are
church related, and I just needthe mamas to understand.
I have young men come to me andsay Mr Phil, the yoga pants are
killing me.
Mr Phil, thank you so much forhaving strict guidelines at camp
.
I need a week where I don'thave to worry about those things

(01:09:13):
and I get that, and that's oneof the things that we need to
recognize as parents, whetherit's with our boys or our girls,
that God made us visualcreatures, and so I think it's
safe to assume anybody listeningthat we all understand
pornography, lusting thosethings.
Those are clear commands inscripture.

(01:09:37):
You need to be mindful of that.
That is a path our young mencan take, and if we're giving a
kid a cell phone withoutboundaries and without our
restrictions, you're giving thempornography.
Don't think you're not.
You have put it in their hands,and parents need to be wise to

(01:09:57):
that and we need to be mindfulthat when we give our children
these tools, we're giving them agateway to these kind of visual
images and these kind ofchallenges.
But on the other hand, let mejust build on what Josh is
saying.
That's a blessing, not always acurse, that you're visual.

(01:10:17):
What you need to do is makeyour vision what God would want
it to be, so that you desire thegodly woman, so that the woman
in Proverbs 31, when you see herin her service, when you see
her in her humility, when yousee her in her attitude, that

(01:10:38):
you see that and go oh my, thatis attractive, because that's
the woman who will be able tofulfill you.
And that's not just in sexualgratification or things that we
see with our eyes from thatpoint of view, but also in what

(01:10:59):
we see in our relations withothers, what we see when our
athletic desires and everythingelse.
We need to have our eyes fixedon what God would want us to see
.
And here's the way I think mencan help their sons do that when
we're honest with our boysabout what challenges us
physically.
What I've got to be mindful ofis a daddy, of what I'm seeing

(01:11:22):
and what I'm focused on, and Ithink one of the best things we
can show this to our kids iswhen we can help them see what
is attractive.
I remember this is funny Grayand I were walking across the
campus he couldn't have been butlike 12 years old and we're
walking across the UF campusgoing to a basketball game and I
can't remember where we had topark, but we had to walk past

(01:11:44):
some of the dorms and these twogirls went by us and you would
not have known the difference ina street walker, in a college
student, when they walked by us.
And I remember it was one ofthose things where he's real
young and I'm like, oh, my word,I know he saw that and he

(01:12:04):
noticed it.
I noticed it.
We got by and I'm like, okay,what do I say?
This is one of those teachingmoments, what do I say?
And I just remember saying so,gray, you think they're going to
church and he goes.
No way, no way.
And we just laughed.
I said yeah, yeah, and we justwent on to the game.
Yeah, but it was also anopportunity for me to let him

(01:12:28):
know yeah, I saw it also, I sawit also.
So what are we going to do withthis?
And boys are visual.
We need to be mindful of that.
But let's help them turn theirheads and see what is good.

Speaker 1 (01:12:44):
And when they don't be, the father that helps them.
Because I think one of thethings that is often a blind
spot in many congregations isthat we assume nobody has this
problem and almost everybodydoes, and I worry that sometimes
this goes this is what youshould do, but we don't talk

(01:13:05):
about what happens when you cave, that this is the problem that
you have, not the problem youshouldn't have.
You see what I'm saying.

Speaker 3 (01:13:13):
Isn't that something you all done in university?
Don't you all have like a men'sdevotion group?
Y'all have actually talkedabout this openly and shared and
discussed things like thisaddictions or one of them.

Speaker 2 (01:13:23):
Yeah, we try to take.
The last year was the firstyear, but we took some Saturdays
and did a men's study.
We called it ready to fight andthe point was you know, god's
given us the armor and the toolsto fight what we're struggling
with.
And pornography was the firstsubject we talked about and
talked about that at length.

(01:13:44):
But our aim is to do that againthis year.

Speaker 3 (01:13:49):
Yeah, did you take your sons.

Speaker 2 (01:13:52):
I took my oldest.
Jared was 13 at the time.
I took him Ethan, you know, butthat's also again to
personality.
I've got a 14-year-old old man.
I've got a 11-year-old whosleeps with 50 teddy bears, so

(01:14:13):
it's something that's.
Those are things that I yeah, Iknow that Jared, I've got to
make sure he's prepared for this.
Ethan's still, you know, he'sstill.
He's still a kid.

Speaker 3 (01:14:26):
Yeah, that's great.
Well, and I appreciate the, Iappreciate the shepherds there
in the congregation for beingmindful of that, and I think
that's part of raising our boysthat they see that and
understand that and that dad ishonest.
Well, hey, these are mychallenges too.
We can work on this together.

Speaker 1 (01:14:44):
Yeah, and that's.
I think that's one of thestruggles.
I think one of the things thatwe've done in churches often is
we've set up shame and guilt andwe often don't give them
alleviation from that shame andguilt.
How do you fix that?
Because I think everybody hashad has stumbled in this area at
some point.

Speaker 3 (01:15:02):
Can you celebrate your victories?
That's exactly.
You celebrate the victorieswhen either men overcome or they
don't engage, and or you.
Just to me, we need tocelebrate marriage more.
You know we have anannouncement list where we'll
announce everybody who's sickand everything wrong with them.
I think we should announceevery anniversary and anybody

(01:15:25):
who's been married over 30 years.
There should be just standingapplause.
You know there's a couple thatis fighting the fight and doing
it together because that's whatGod has called us to be, and I
think we need to do that in ouryoung men's life.
Celebrate those victories whenthey achieve things spiritually,
emotionally, physically andmentally.

(01:15:46):
You celebrate those things whenthey're on a good path.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:15:49):
So many of our prayer requests are for people who are
experiencing illness or goingthrough something that's hard,
but we don't.
We don't celebrate very oftenand we don't celebrate very well
sometimes.
Alright, guys, what did I miss?

Speaker 2 (01:16:05):
Phil brought this into it a little bit, but I'll
just echo that.
You know we've talked aboutbeing fathers to sons.
Sons need their mothers too.
They have to have both.
I and maybe it's because I'veforgotten a lot of my own

(01:16:25):
failings from when I was a kid,I don't know.
But you know I can be prettyhard on the boys from time to
time and Janna brings the softtouch, the compassion sometimes
where it's lacking on my part,and they need that.
And even you know from God'sword.
You know Phil mentioned the inthe proverbs about you know, son

(01:16:47):
, listen to me.
But the wise men didn't saysimply listen to me, heed your
mother's instruction.
You know it's not.
It's not just oh, here's yourdad, listen to him.
Well, here's your mom too, andyou need to listen to her.
And if you listen to both of us, chances are you get a whole
lot more of the full counsel ofGod than you would from just one

(01:17:08):
of us.

Speaker 3 (01:17:11):
Yeah, and you haven't missed anything, and I just
appreciate Josh and his insightso very much.
The only thing I think I wouldadd is this Rearing children is
a challenge, but, boy, it's alsoa joy.
Cheryl and I, for now, we'vebeen truly blessed with two kids
, and they're making their owndecisions.

(01:17:32):
Who they are now has nothing todo with me.
It's what they're choosing tobecome and do.
There's no greater joy in life.
When your kids are good, lifeis good.
Nothing else matters.
And I will just say to anybodyout there who's listening if

(01:17:52):
there's anything that I can do,especially to help you or your
children, especially your kidsyounger and camp age, let me
know.
I'd love to help and I knowJosh would too.
Amen, because there's nogreater joy in life than being
able to enjoy kids, and we'regoing to love our kids

(01:18:14):
regardless.
And I think one other thingthat our kids always need to
know no matter what you've done,no matter where you've been, no
matter how bad you think thingsare, you can always come home.
I will always love you, andlove you fiercely, regardless.

Speaker 1 (01:18:34):
I end on my podcast with Be Good and Do Good.
What's good about raising boys?

Speaker 2 (01:18:40):
First, it's a lot of fun.
We've stated that Neither of mysons are just like me, but we
do do a lot of things togetherWith Jared.
We like a lot of the same nerdstuff, you know.

Speaker 3 (01:18:54):
Star Wars.

Speaker 2 (01:18:55):
Harry Potter, you know all this kind of stuff.
We sit down and watch that andengage in that.
He likes physical challenges,so that's just really fun doing
that with him.
Ethan's my sports and games kid.
He loves sports, he lovesplaying games and just always
doing that Even Indian thingsthat I don't necessarily care
for, but I wind up playing agame of Pokemon with him just

(01:19:17):
about every day.

Speaker 3 (01:19:19):
And.

Speaker 2 (01:19:19):
I don't know who any of the characters are, but it
can be a fairly fun game to playand you know so it's a lot of
fun.
But the other thing I said acouple hours ago now it seems
like God knew I needed to bechallenged, and my sons have
provided that in my life.

(01:19:40):
They've helped me grow a lot.

Speaker 3 (01:19:43):
Yeah Well, I'll just echo what Josh says.
I tell you Gray's just been ajoy and I've learned a lot about
myself in rearing him and I'velearned how I need to adapt in
many ways.
And we're at the point nowwhere we're listening to our
children's advice.

(01:20:04):
There's nothing more humblingwhen your kids set you down and
say, all right, mom and dad,here's what we noticed and
here's what y'all got to work on.
And there's great comfort inlistening to your kids at those
times and go.
You know what?
I think they're right and thatis a joy.

(01:20:25):
And Gray and I are playingtrips together and we're
actually doing a savage racetogether.
But there's nothing moreenjoyable than when you hear
that your son has given thetable talk at church or he's
joined somebody in a Bible studygroup or he's initiated some
gathering or something.
And it's at that moment thatyou realize this wasn't about me

(01:20:51):
.
This wasn't about me at all andI don't want my son to be like
me and I want him to see andunderstand he wants to be like
his Lord, and when those thingstake place there's just great
joy in that and so I love my sondearly and so God is blessing

(01:21:13):
me greatly.

Speaker 1 (01:21:14):
Okay, all right, phil , you put your foot into it.
One of the things you said wasthat you'd be happy to help
other people If somebody would.
And then you volunteered Joshfor exactly the same thing.
If somebody wanted to get aholdof you, how would they?
How could they get ahold of you?

Speaker 3 (01:21:30):
They can reach me via email really easy robertsonp at
floridacollegeedu.
So just shoot me an email.
You can catch me through thecollege real easy.
And or you could just call thecollege, leave me a message, but
I would be happy to share andjust so you know, if you're

(01:21:52):
reaching out to me, you'rereally reaching out to Cheryl.
She's the brains in theoperation and so I will
certainly consult her, but I'dbe more than happy to try to
help, or, as I often see myselfas a first responder in
situations, I can give youinitial advice but lead you to
somebody who can really help youeven more so.

Speaker 2 (01:22:14):
Yeah same thing, email is really easy, josh Creel
at gmailcom.
Creel is with a, c and all thethings that Phil just said.
I don't know a lot of things.
I'm a pretty good listener andthen I can generally find
somebody that knows what you're,what you're dealing with, and
try to lead you to that person.

Speaker 1 (01:22:35):
All right, guys, thanks for this.
I really appreciate it.
Both of you guys mean a lot tome.
Phil, you have taken care of mykids at camp for far too many
years, and my kids say nothingbut good things about you.
I've tried to counter every oneof the things that they say
good about you, because I knowyou're better than that, josh.
You've become a very goodfriend and I appreciate what
you're doing.

(01:22:55):
I'll go ahead and tell you I'mglad that I'm going to be there
to help your boys get over yourparenting.
So I mean, I think you've gottwo very, very good young men.
So anyway, thank you very muchfor doing this, guys.

Speaker 2 (01:23:09):
No problem, kenny, thank you.
Thanks, kenny.

Speaker 1 (01:23:13):
As I was editing this conversation, I realized that
there was a lot of overlapbetween how you raise boys and
girls.
That said, I think especiallyPhil does a really nice job of
talking about how he treated hisdaughter versus how he treated
his son.
Scooping up his daughter to puther to bed as a princess sounds

(01:23:33):
very familiar to me, and beingthe bucking bronco for his son
yeah, that's been my experiencetoo.
I think one of the things thatI appreciate is my sons and
daughters share a lot of thesame similarities, but boys love
competition and my girls loveto work together.

(01:23:54):
That's not always true, but Ido think in general.
If I think somebody needs towork together, I'm probably
approaching my girls first, andif I want to try to inspire them
to compete well, I think that'swhere my boys naturally fall in
line.
In some ways, I worry about boys.

(01:24:15):
I worry about them finding adirection in life, but I also
worry about my daughters, justin different ways.
When it comes to wishes for mykids, I want them both to do
well.
I don't want one to fail andthe other to succeed.
I want them to be the heads offamilies where they are doing

(01:24:37):
the very best they can with whatthey have.
I also want them to be in arelationship with God.
That matters.
Phil, josh, thanks for talkingto me about this.
You guys are good guys.
You're good dads.
I appreciate giving a littlebit of your insight into how I

(01:24:57):
might be able to raise my ownboys.
As for the good thing I'mthinking about, that university
is starting up its semesterwithin the next few days and I'm
looking forward to it.
Yes, it has been a hard row foroh, I don't know less year,
year and a half, but I stilllove seeing students and this is

(01:25:17):
still a job that I think isboth important and makes a
difference and a critical pointin their lives.
I'm glad God has given me thisjob.
I see this as more than just away to make an income, but also
make a difference.
So until next time, let's begood and do good.