May 29, 2024 • 49 mins
In this difficult but important episode, we explore the often-unseen impact of substance abuse – the toll it takes on families who lose loved ones to addiction.
Nate & Tommy are joined by two special guests, Theresa Juillerat and Alice Jordan, who have both experienced the devastating loss of a child to substance abuse.
They'll share their powerful stories of grief, resilience, and the challenges of navigating a world without their child. We'll discuss the unique struggles faced by families, how to find support, and ways to honor the memory of a loved one lost to addiction.
This episode is for anyone who has been affected by substance abuse, or who simply wants to understand the impact it has beyond the individual. Join us for a conversation that's both heartbreaking and hopeful, as we explore the power of love and loss in the face of addiction.
https://www.bareknucklerecovery.com/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:09):
Welcome in everybody to the Bare Knuckle Recovery
Podcast.
As always, I'm Tommy Streeter,this is Nate Mollering and, as
you guys can see, we've got twoguests with us today.
We've got Alice Jordan, who isthe mom of an addict, and then
we've got Teresa Julie Ratt, whoanyone who has been following
us for the last three yearsyou've definitely heard us
mention Teresa's name, I don'tknow countless times, so we'll
(00:34):
talk about that here in a littlebit.
Nate, I'm kind of going to letyou take over, since this one
was your idea.
You invited the guests for thisone, so what are we going to be
talking about today?
Speaker 2 (00:45):
We're going to talk about a couple of things, but
really I think the focus fortoday is going to be on really
it's going to be on the familiesof people kind of left behind,
whether they've lost their lovedone to substance use or whether
their person's still outstruggling with substance use.
You know, my friend Alice and Iwere having a conversation the
other day and it came up thatyou know she has taken on the
(01:07):
responsibility of raising herthree of her grandchildren and
you know, teresa and I went toWashington together back in 2022
.
It was September 2022.
And there was a woman who spokeat the roundtable we were at
with Congress.
And there was a woman who spokeat the roundtable we were at
with Congress.
(01:28):
She said that you're going toface a youth and elder crisis
like you've never seen before.
There's a whole generationmissing in the middle Tommy and
I's generation we just talkedabout, both of us in our early
30s but the generation of peoplethat are kind of in their early
40ies, twenties and even someof the teens right, where that
group has either beenincarcerated, they're out on the
(01:50):
street or they've passed away.
And she said I am 63 years oldand I'm taking care of my
four-year-old granddaughter.
She said I am tired.
She said I love her to death.
She said but in 10 years I'mgoing to be 73 and she's going
to be 14.
(02:10):
Who's going to take care of meand who's going to take care of
her?
And I just sat there and I saidthat's a that's a good question
.
You know, we talk all the timeabout the people that are left
behind, and the and and the timeabout the people that are left
behind and even the people thatare lost, but I think we often.
What does that really mean,though?
What are the details associatedwith that?
(02:31):
What does that look like?
And most people don't evenbegin to understand or can't
even visualize that, unless wecome out and we talk about it
and we paint a very real picture, through our own life
experiences, of what that lookslike.
Right, and we paint a very realpicture, through our own life
experiences, of what that lookslike Right.
So one of the things, too,we're going to do real quickly
is have Teresa kind of give us alittle background on herself,
(02:51):
and then Alice will have yougive a background on yourself,
but, teresa, since you're bareknuckle recovery famous, please
share a little bit aboutyourself, of course, java, your
organization, and then also howwe met Sure bit about yourself,
of course, java, yourorganization, and then also how
we met Sure.
Speaker 3 (03:13):
So I started my advocacy journey back in 2018,
when we started supportingfamilies through Java, which
stands for Justice,accountability and Victim
Advocacy.
We were supporting families ofhomicide victims and at that
time, I was passionate aboutdoing that, just because I just
love loving on people andhelping any way that I can.
But I always, at that time,felt very unequipped to talk to
(03:37):
these parents who have lostchildren, because I was still
able to go home to my kids atnight.
So supporting them it went along way, because when you lose
a child, you just want to beheard.
You don't really want advice,so to speak.
You just want somebody tolisten to you and have your
feelings validated.
(03:58):
So, fast forward to May 12th of2020, when I got the call and it
was my son, the tablesimmediately turned and it was at
the time I didn't know when Iresponded to the call.
I'm the one that found my sonunresponsive.
(04:18):
I'm the one that called 911.
I'm the one that administeredCPR and during that time, I
remember thinking what happened,and that's the first thing
people want to know whathappened?
I didn't know.
I thought my son hadexperienced some sort of medical
emergency or something.
Drugs was probably the farthestfrom my mind.
(04:40):
Now I know we'll talk abouthindsight later, but at the time
my son had been battling somelegal issues and I knew that he
had endured a lot of trauma.
Just in his own circle offriends he had self-medicated.
His drug of choice at the timewas marijuana, and so that was
(05:05):
the extent of what I knew, andso when this happened I didn't
want to label him because, again, not knowing.
And then I waited for thetoxicology to come back, and it
was at that time that I readthat it was attributed to
fentanyl and that he had over 10times the lethal dose of
fentanyl in his system.
(05:26):
And I learned that from thecoroner.
Because I can't, those reportsare non-human readable.
Sometimes you don't know whatyou're looking at.
So I'm staring at this piece ofpaper and again I don't know
what fentanyl is.
And so I started to researchand just thought you know, if
this is a drug that's out herein our streets, why hasn't it
(05:48):
hit my radar?
Why have I never heard about it?
And it's killing people Likewhy isn't this on the news?
Why isn't this a bulletin?
And at the time that was at thebrink of COVID.
But with this taking lives theway it was, and again I thought
I was alone.
I didn't know that this was aepidemic.
(06:09):
But I almost, as a parent,expected a COVID-like response,
a notification, a bulletinacross the TV screen that just
is making people aware that thisis risky, this is dangerous.
So just out of desperation Iwas calling and trying to meet
with anybody, talk to anybodythat would talk to me.
(06:31):
And that's when a friend ofmine pointed me to you two and
I'll never forget that first sitdown that we had.
I met with you both and youguys were both there to answer
every question that I had.
You made me feel like therewere others like me out there
(06:52):
and I learned that you guys weretalking about it and just never
hit my radar.
And I tell people now that eventhen, in that sit down with you
guys, I would have never labeledmy son an addict.
Even in that moment, knowingfentanyl is his cause of death,
I still would have said nobecause in my mind I was on that
(07:15):
stigma bandwagon.
I was, you know.
No, addiction is bad and no,not my son.
My son was a good kid, like hedid.
He, yes, he made bad choices,but he would have never done
anything beyond marijuana.
You know he would have never.
And so, again, just beinguneducated at the time.
I tell people now that my storyhas changed slightly, because I
(07:36):
do.
My son had addiction-liketendencies and was trying to
self-medicate, trying to cope,trying to take the pain away by
any means necessary.
And if that came in the form ofa pill that's going to take him
away from the trauma that hewas experiencing and the mental
health, that just went unnoticedbecause then I didn't know the
(07:59):
signs on what he needed.
So all that kind of factoredinto me even picking up the
phone and contacting you guysand we had a very good
informative.
It was very informative to meand my takeaway.
One of the takeaways was youknow, this was not a parental
failure, because when you lose achild or when your child makes
(08:24):
bad choices, you instantly blameyourself and that's natural.
You know, as a parent, youthink where did I go wrong?
What could I have donedifferently?
What could I have said thatwould have made him choose
differently?
And just understanding now thateveryone is given free will and
that you know I cannot holdthat burden of any choice that
(08:49):
my son made.
There are things I can do,which is we can probably get
into that as part of ourdiscussion, but just getting out
in the community and makingothers aware that you are not
alone.
Speaker 2 (09:04):
Absolutely yeah, and I think you know what you've
shared with us will lead intoour larger discussion too, about
the.
You know you talk aboutepidemic and, just like with
COVID, you know where there werea lot of people that got sick
and passed away.
There's a lot of things that,after the fact, the shockwave
you have to deal with right, andthat's kind of what we're going
(09:29):
to be talking about today, isthe shockwave of addiction.
You know whether it's cause.
You know we get our loved onesstolen from us.
Sometimes they pass away, butsometimes they're stolen from us
while they're still alive, youknow, um.
So with that, you know, alice,do you want to share a little
bit about yourself a?
Speaker 4 (09:40):
little bit about your story.
Um, uh, there's so much.
It's been for 15 years of hell.
Um, my son was a very, very,very good soccer player.
Um, as a matter of fact, hissophomore year at high school,
he was offered a full ride frommy alma mater to play soccer.
(10:02):
The kid could make a goal froma corner kick.
I was, you know.
Um, my husband at the time wasnot Ross's father, but he was
the one who raised him.
You know, um, ross, his junioryear or so, um tore his ACL and
he was going to the DrPediatrics Associates.
(10:24):
You know, when he you turn 18,you know the kids could go to
the doctors by themselves, drivethem there themselves.
So, knowing that Ross, you know, had tore his ACL and I just,
you know, I just didn't think.
You know, hindsight is 20-20.
You know, I just didn't thinkwhat he was doing in regards to
(10:45):
continuing his medication orwhatnot.
I thought he was going tophysical therapy.
You know, a person who only getspaid once a month.
I didn't go through my mailevery day, you know, I just do
it once a month.
You get those EOBs.
I mean, there was an extensiveamount and again, you know, I
blame myself for a lot of it andagain I blame myself for a lot
(11:05):
of it.
But I also was noticing when Ilooked at those EO Beasles
explanation of benefits, rosswas going to this doctor a lot
and I was like how could I nothave caught that?
So the first time I ever gaveRoss Narcan at the time his
(11:26):
nine-year-old daughter found him.
There's nothing in this worldthat prepares you as a parent to
find your child blue.
So I gave him the Narcan.
Thank God Kevin Hunter gave methat Narcan.
Speaker 2 (11:42):
Yeah, Kevin Hunter.
Speaker 4 (11:44):
So go to Lutheran Hospital and you know, I don't
know what's going on, but thenurses do, you know, and they I
don't know, but they made mefeel so less of you know.
I didn't know what was going on.
Ross knew why he was in there.
I didn't know what was going on.
You know I thought he had anadverse, you know, reaction to I
(12:06):
don't know, I can't tell you.
My focus really was dealingwith Audrina, who thought her
dad died, you know.
So I remember looking at Ross,just like it was yesterday, and
I said to him Ross, mijo, howdid we get here?
He says, mom, when they shutdown the doctors, it was easier
(12:34):
for me to get heroin on thestreet than it was a pill.
And I remember sitting back inmy chair thinking, oh my God, I
was part of that system.
Long story short, ross has gone,got into school.
He was doing so well.
He's a great dad, nate.
He's a great dad.
He loves his girls.
(12:55):
He has five girls.
He was going to school.
He would relapse.
I never would want to believeit because I believed everything
.
Speaker 2 (13:07):
He said to me you want to believe that, you wanted
to believe everything for thegood right, and you were a
family of faith, you know.
Speaker 4 (13:13):
And so ross, you know , ended up getting married to
another addict.
They ended up having twochildren.
One's just been today, she'sthree months old, but she was
born addicted and so over theyears, ross has continued to use
(13:41):
.
Things I've learned inattending support groups of moms
of kids who are addicts is thatyou're never to turn your back
on them, because everybody elsehas Right, and I feel I'm fairly
educated.
You know what's the differencebetween an enabler and
supporting your kid.
Speaker 2 (14:00):
Right, right.
Speaker 4 (14:01):
So now being at an age of 58 years old, you know,
just three months ago I just satdown with a financial advisor
and was planning on retiring ina couple of years.
Speaker 2 (14:13):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (14:13):
That ain't happening.
That is not happening and it'slike I feel very upset with him
right now because he was justrecently arrested for selling
fentanyl, a level two felony,and I just can't even put my
mind around that, and so much sothat I have blocked the jail
(14:41):
calls because my energies andthe space I have left in my
brain and my mentality, I haveto focus on these girls
mentality, I have to focus onthese girls.
And so you know I wanted again,when I reached out to Nate that
(15:01):
you know I wanted to get him inrehab.
You know I've.
You know I have little 401kleft because of all.
You know, when you pay 10 grandfor a 60 day stay and they stay
sick days, they don't give yourmoney back, and so many times I
do feel alone.
But because of my field, I knowthat I have a very powerful
(15:22):
platform, and my powerfulplatform is this is that I speak
my truth.
What's going on with my kids ismy life today and I want to
break that vicious cycle andletting him sit there and face
(15:43):
his consequences because momcan't fix this one and Ross,
I've also understood and I'vekind of always made excuses is
that Ross's dad has alwaysdenied him and he has a brother
that is less than two weeksyounger than him and they look
exactly alike and he lives withhis father and that's always
(16:07):
been a thing for Ross.
And again, not that I'm makingexcuses, but I also know that
mental health and trauma impactsaddicts.
It's real.
And and and, and you know, andfor anybody that doesn't, I'll
fight you to the very endbecause of they all are
connected and they're allintertwined.
And you know, as I said to youall earlier, you know I'm in the
(16:29):
field of saving everybodyelse's kid and it's, you know,
when I was always out therehelping my own community,
sometimes I felt my communitywas failing me because there's
no, there's, there was noaffordable services back then,
you know, or local, or you hadto wait, or you know, you know
(16:53):
just all kinds of things.
I think also that the way thesystem is now is that it's
broken.
I mean shocker, you know,because we as families need to
be part of that continuity ofcare.
And I'm sorry, f HIPAA, fprivacy, because it's invading
in my privacy and I'm having toput everything else on the side.
(17:19):
And I'll do everything for mygrandchildren, I'll do anything
for my I'll get my life for mygrandchildren, but in order for
us, because Ross is getting outsometime, all addicts are
getting out sometime and we need, we can't set them up to fail
right.
I mean, I'll know, you know,when Ross got out of prison the
first time, he couldn't even get, get out of the apartment
because he had a felony.
Speaker 2 (17:37):
Right you know I mean these transitional houses.
Speaker 4 (17:40):
I mean, I mean, and it's not in a section that
further stigmatizes a further,you know, knocks a nail in that
coffin that they can never runaway from that.
You know that bad choice thatthey made.
And I'm not making excuses forwhat Ross did.
I'm not because he had avillage.
Ross had a village.
(18:01):
He was more fortunate than a lotof people and a lot of people
even told him over and over andover again Ross, you're lucky,
you still have people that callyou or you can call, or they
accept your call or they sendyou money or they send you a
letter.
You still have those and it'snot one person, it's your family
, right, and he still never sawthat and it's just.
(18:22):
You know.
Now I feel that the breakdownin services right now is for the
people who are stepping in, forthese kids, because we all know
, it's not a secret, we don'thave enough foster families as
it is Right, 100% yeah, and evento find a foster family that
(18:45):
will take a three-month-old thatwas born addicted to heroin,
fentanyl and methadone andmorphine, right, because of
stigma.
Speaker 2 (18:50):
Exactly Right and morphine Right Because of stigma
.
Speaker 4 (18:52):
Exactly Right.
So, you know, I just you know,I want all your listeners and
your viewers to know that you'renot alone if you're in my
situation.
You know it's not a club weever wanted to be in.
No, you know, definitely don'twant the T-shirt or the
sweatshirt, but it is what it isand I think that changes need
(19:15):
to be made in the system so thatit's not.
You know, it's, it's not avicious cycle because, also, I
have to worry about the traumaof the girls.
Now, right, I could no longerlie to the 15 year old.
No, you know, I just can't, Ican't lie to her anymore about
it.
No, you know, and uh, and it'scostly to have somebody in
(19:35):
prison, it's costly to have himin jail, isn't?
Speaker 2 (19:38):
it.
Speaker 4 (19:38):
Yeah, you know it is, it's costly, but you know, ross
made his bed and now his mom ismaking him finally live in it.
Speaker 2 (19:46):
And I think we really want families to realize that.
You know, both of you are soinvolved in the community.
You know that it can happen toanybody.
It can happen to anybody, right, you know?
I mean, I think that I think alot of people fall into that
category where they just feel somuch shame and guilt, you know,
but it's, it's not your faultas a parent, and you know, and
(20:07):
there are people out there thatare going through the same
struggle and I think it'simportant those people connect
with each other too.
Speaker 4 (20:12):
Well, I also I think it's important those people
connect with each other too Well, I also I think I think that as
a society we need to change thelanguage, because we all know
language is very critical whenit comes to mental health.
In the field of addiction, youknow, we need to start first of
all accepting mental health likeany other socially accepted
illness, but it's a disease.
It is a disease.
I mean, look how hard it is forpeople to stop smoking
(20:34):
cigarettes.
You know what I mean.
And that's legal, you know so.
It's just sometimes theignorance, the level of
ignorance, the level ofinsensitivity as well, I mean,
further perpetuates that stigma,that shame, that loneliness,
right, that also opens the doorsto other things as well.
(20:57):
Sure For that particularcaregiver to self-start,
self-medicating, unhealthily.
Yes, you know, I mean, it's aterrible cycle.
Speaker 3 (21:06):
And you would never call someone having to undergo
cancer treatment as selfish.
Speaker 2 (21:12):
Right, no, right, no, I mean no one, no one chooses
to be an addict.
You know, like no one,especially the, you know there's
people that are predisposed toaddiction.
You know, whether their brainis not wired properly, whatever
it is right, whether it's trauma, whether it's genetic or
whether it's their environment,right.
But there are things that thatopen us up.
I, you know.
I know the first time I took asubstance, right.
(21:34):
But there are things that thatopen us up.
I, you know.
I know the first time I took asubstance it did something to me
that it doesn't do to mostpeople, right, like, I almost
like to describe it to people.
And some people get offendedwhen I say this cause.
You know they don't want to beassociated with addicts, but
it's like type one, type two,diabetes.
I believe there's type oneaddicts, there's type two,
meaning there's people who areborn predisposed, but also I
always caution people with thetype two.
You can party so much that youbeat the crap out of that part
(21:56):
of your brain that feelspleasure, right, and and and
pain that it can.
It can mess it up to where itcan't reach homeostasis again
anymore, right, right.
But you know, I think it'simportant that we, we do
recognize it.
It's a disease that centers inin in the brain, right and it
(22:16):
and it really does take overpeople's lives and it's that
fight or flight people that arecraving and that do these things
.
Literally, they, they feel likethey're going to die if they
don't get it.
Your brain is screaming we needthis to survive.
It really, it literallyreorders the hierarchy of need
in your mind, whereas, like youmight have you know, food, sleep
, shelter, sex, whatever else itwipes the whiteboard and it
rates heroin, heroin, heroin,heroin.
(22:39):
That's why you see people wholook like they haven't eaten for
days.
Cause they probably haven'tbecause they have right, cause
when you get 20 bucks, you'renot like, well, let me go get $5
for the food.
You're like I'm, if I can get$15 for the heroin versus 20,
I'm going to do $20.
I'll figure out the food later,you know.
And it and it does the samething to people when they're
parents of children, right?
People say, oh, you're a badparent.
Well, again, everything insideof them is screaming that we
(23:04):
have to get this substance whichwe found, which is basically
our solution to life.
I always tell people the firsttime I tried an opiate, I had a
semi-spiritual experience.
People probably think well, howis that possible?
I felt like there was somethingmissing my entire life.
When I took an opiate For thefirst time, I felt this is how
everybody else feels and this ishow I should feel every single
day for the rest of my life, nomatter what it takes, no matter
(23:24):
what happened to me.
It was always all I just haveto get some opiates so I can
think and figure out a plan.
I could have just got over it,out of jail for possession or
getting caught in a stingoperation at a drug house.
I got to get high so I canfigure out what to do next.
And that goes against allrationale of human beings, right
?
So that's why I think it's sohard for people on the outside
looking in to understand whenyou really don't understand it.
(23:47):
And if you educate yourself,you do start to learn about the
brain, science and everythingbehind it and how our society
predisposes people to besusceptible to addictive
behavior.
You could talk a lot about.
We have a dopamine economy,meaning that you're sold
something every five seconds youturn on the TV.
If you get a Toyota, yourfamily's going to all go on
vacation together.
Everyone's going to be happyand they're going to have a
great time.
You're going to get to singalong like they were when they
(24:08):
were kids.
Then you can go throughMcDonald's and your kids get a
Happy Meal and they're going tohave a great time, right.
And then you go home and youbuy a Samsung and you can watch
Netflix.
And you buy a Samsung, thewhole family is going to watch
movies just like they used to,right?
And it's this next thing.
This next thing, it's thesehits of dopamine in our brain.
So that way, when we get thatdrug, your brain's already wired
that way, right?
(24:28):
And we start kids from a youngage on that stuff.
So when they get it, they'renot prepared.
They're not prepared.
Speaker 3 (24:32):
Right.
Right In terms of lack ofservices.
I mean, we know the jail is notequipped to offer treatment to
those who become incarcerated,find themselves incarcerated,
whether it's due to a drugcharge or not.
We've got those that aregetting jailed, that are users,
(24:57):
and so we know that behind barsthere is a lack of treatment and
just things that would helpcoach them and rehabilitate them
mentally and physically, justto help them, wean them off of
the drugs and just educate themon what they're battling.
And because of that I feel maybeif something like that was
(25:22):
offered in the jail, my son, myson, had a short incarceration
stint.
It was three months and he, Ibelieve, was experimenting with
these drugs prior to hisincarceration.
So when he was released, againunbeknownst to me, he was
battling an addiction of somesort.
(25:42):
So when he was released,tolerance again, hindsight I
know now tolerance probablyplayed a factor in his death
because within 46 hours of hisrelease is when I found him
unresponsive and which led tohis death.
So again, you know things likeNarcan I didn't know what that
(26:03):
was at the time, things that hewas battling.
Maybe I could have helped.
But you know I won't take thatwhole responsibility on my own
shoulders because he was intheir house for three months in
the jail, and so the lack ofjust education and treatment in
(26:25):
general materials, curriculum ofsome sort, just reading
materials, just readingmaterials, something that
supports or encouragesrehabilitation.
Speaker 4 (26:35):
You know, it just makes me so mad that those
things are not available.
I realize they've done a crime,they've committed a crime.
I get that, I understand that.
But you know what?
Let's help them be a betterperson, because they're going to
be back into society, you know.
So let's not make them havethat sense that they're not
(26:57):
worthy or that they're nevergoing to be given a chance.
I didn't mean to interrupt you,but darn it, it just makes me
so mad that there's no resourcesthat is later than 2005 that
they can get their hands onother than the Bible.
Speaker 3 (27:14):
And we know, know, they're all issued tablets.
Speaker 4 (27:17):
So if there's, how much it is to use the tablets
that who's got to pay for it?
Right, right you know, family,yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:23):
When it really goes to show something that you were
talking about earlier, alice,which is you know.
So Chris was sober for threemonths while he was in jail.
The drugs weren't the problem.
If the drugs were the problem,when he got out he wouldn't have
started using drugs again.
Speaker 4 (27:36):
You were talking about how mental health and
addiction go hand in hand andthat is something that we talk
about all the time, but that's aperfect example of that.
Speaker 1 (27:43):
You're right, when he was in there and I don't think
J-CAP was part of.
Speaker 3 (27:47):
Allen.
Speaker 1 (27:47):
County Jail at the time it is now it.
We're definitely big fans ofJ-CAP.
We love that program, but it'sstill.
It's such a small program.
It's great that they have it.
If they could expand it, thatwould be incredible.
Speaker 4 (27:57):
But see, the thing is , why doesn't our community want
to expand it?
Look how much it's costing usto incarcerate them.
You know we can't even decide.
You know which shovel they'regoing to use for the new jail.
You know who's going to.
You know who's going to get allthat glory for that.
You know, let's start.
Let's let's put in money on theon the beginning and not put it
in on the on the on the outset,so we don't have to fight about
(28:20):
how many bonds we're going tobe taken out for the jail.
You know, I mean, I understandjail is not the Ritz Carlton.
I get that and I don't thinkthat they should.
You know they should have theability to have all the great
things.
I'm not saying that.
But let's help them be become abetter person, because they're
(28:41):
going to be your neighbor, right, they're going to be your Uber
driver.
They're going to be.
You know, they're going to bein our communities.
They're going to be yourneighbor.
Speaker 2 (28:48):
We need them in our community.
We can't afford to throw themaway, and the thing is, I just
don't understand it.
Speaker 4 (28:53):
It's not rocket science.
Speaker 2 (28:55):
Right.
Speaker 4 (28:55):
You know, ray Charles could see the benefits of all
this and he's blind.
Yeah, you know.
And I just don't understandJ-CAP.
I don't understand why theprevious administration did not
want J-CAP in our program whenthere was so many research that
it was in our own state thatshowed how beneficial it was.
And the thing is it wasn'tacademia us at academia saying
that this program worked.
(29:16):
These the results were all peerreported, meaning that it came
from the people who received theservices.
They said it from their ownmouth.
If it wouldn't have been forthem, they'd be using again or
they would have been out robbing, you know, or thieving, or
raping, or whatever, whatever.
If it wasn't for this program,yeah, or whatever, whatever.
Speaker 1 (29:32):
If it wasn't for this program.
Yeah, and I mean.
We see on a daily basis thepositive impact.
Speaker 4 (29:35):
Right, exactly Just J-Cap alone has in our community
.
Right, exactly.
Speaker 1 (29:39):
I see it in Kosciuszko County.
Speaker 4 (29:41):
Yes, I mean, look what I mean.
Nate Tommy, aisha Diss, theygive me hope.
Yep, you know they give me hope.
And why is?
Because you know, because youbenefited from good programs.
And Aisha, she speaks her truthtoo.
She says that she wasincarcerated, she was this, she
(30:01):
was that and people neverthought she would be.
She never thought she would be.
Speaker 3 (30:06):
And look at her now.
Speaker 2 (30:07):
She has her own 501c3 .
Speaker 4 (30:08):
Helping people.
You know, yes, and in the jail.
And again, it's not the Hilton.
I understand that and they haveto pay for what they've done,
but the entire family shouldn'thave to pay.
Speaker 2 (30:19):
Right?
Well, you've got a captiveaudience, I mean literally,
while they're in jail.
So why don't we do somethingelse?
It's supposed to be theDepartment of Corrections.
Why aren't we correcting?
Right, we have to correct theunderlying behavior and the
underlying reasons why theybehave that way.
Speaker 1 (30:34):
You know if you could take someone, you know if you
have them for a year, it's theperfect opportunity for them,
because while they're not injail they might not ask for that
help, but while they're sittingthere not doing anything else,
if it's presented and offered tothem, or even if you say, oh, I
don't want to do it and you'relike well, you're going to do it
, You're here, this is whyyou're here, You're going to do
it.
Speaker 2 (30:51):
You know, some people say, oh well, people only do it
if they want to.
I don't believe that.
I believe that like I know somany people that were put on
drug court and I know you haveto voluntarily go to drug court,
but that doesn't mean theywanted to do it, they didn't
want to get a felony, uh, but Iknow people that were also court
ordered to go to treatment andthe up one day.
(31:11):
and they're like you know what?
I'm not dope sick today.
I laughed today.
Huh, you know, maybe there'ssomething to this sobriety
recovery thing.
Maybe I'll hang around for alittle bit and see what it's
about.
And then eventually they startgetting stuff back and they're
like you know what?
I don't want to go pick upagain.
I want to be in recovery.
I didn't know I wanted it, butit's something that I have now
(31:32):
and I want to keep it, you know.
So you have them in there.
Let's do as much as we can torehabilitate let's you know what
I mean Like let's.
If they don't know how to read,let's teach them how to read.
If they don't know how to write, let's teach them how to write
If they don't know how to staysober.
Let's teach them how to staysober, let's.
We could do more and more.
And it's like you said, itcosts so much.
(31:53):
The recidivism costs even more,right.
Like you know, it costs a lotto house and feed someone and
then, on top of that, they'regoing to come back because
recidivism rate is super high.
I mean, I don't know this offthe top of my head, but I've
heard it's like 80, 70%,something high, right?
So, if we can get them back outand, as I stated before, these
are people we need.
(32:14):
So, when you're a criminal, youdon't stop being a father.
You don't stop being a mother,you don't stop being a potential
employee, a potential volunteer, right?
You don't stop being someone'sneighbor who used to take their
trash cans down because they'reelderly and they can't do it
themselves.
We need those people back and,like you've said, people like
(32:35):
Asha and other people youmentioned I mean some of the
people that have beenrehabilitated, the people that
have been through crap are someof the best people you'll ever
meet Absolutely Some of the mostempathetic and people that are
the most passionate and able tohelp and speak from life
experience and they can helpothers that are going through it
.
But also the hope is we engagein things like what you alluded
to earlier prevention.
I don't think we do enoughprevention.
No Right, we got to help people.
Speaker 4 (32:53):
It's always downstream, it's downstream.
Speaker 2 (32:55):
Right, somebody said you know you keep pulling people
out of the river.
Let's go upstream and find outwhy they keep falling in Right.
Right, you know, and I can'ttake credit for that, I read it
on Facebook or something, butyou know it's true, right, right
.
Speaker 4 (33:07):
And also, I think, while they captive audience,
they need to prepare them whenthey go out and back into the
community.
They need to prepare when theyhave, when every application for
housing gets denied, you knowthat they get that.
No, no, no.
Speaker 2 (33:26):
And then they get so upset and then they go to back
to their unhealthy coping system.
Speaker 4 (33:28):
Why not just go back?
Speaker 2 (33:28):
and use.
Speaker 4 (33:29):
At least I was, you know, at least I was high and I
could deal with life versus youknow them, just sitting there
and just playing cards all day,Right, you know?
Speaker 1 (33:37):
that is definitely.
One of the flaws with J-CAP isthat it stops when they complete
the program and they either gohome or go to community
corrections, depending on theircase.
But there's another program inIndiana called IRAX.
I'm not sure if you're familiarwith IRAX.
Speaker 4 (33:52):
I just heard about that not too long ago.
Speaker 1 (33:54):
It's similar to JCAP, but it's offered to everybody
in the jail and so they can signup for it.
They meet with a case managerwhile they're there, but it
actually follows them when theyleave the jail.
They continue to meet with thatcase manager to work on all of
that other stuff.
Continuity of care.
Speaker 4 (34:05):
Going back to continuity of care, and I think
also is that we need to stopputting a band-aid on addicts.
It's almost, it's almost to apoint of holistic care, you know
, because a lot of their mentaland physical needs have been,
you know, have not been met overthe years.
You know, not only versustraining, you know them, you
(34:27):
know getting the what they needso that they can support their
family.
They, they can, you know, getback into society, be
contributing members of society,be taxpayers.
Speaker 2 (34:36):
Right, right Right.
Speaker 4 (34:38):
I mean, come on, I just again, it's not rocket
science and I, if I had time, Irun for office and change the
whole damn system honestly,because you know I'm so tired of
our, of our make them from afarand they're not making them
(34:59):
from the, from the shoes of thepeople who are walking in it, or
at least not having us at thetable.
Speaker 2 (35:04):
Well, you know, I've I you know not to get political.
I've always been a proponent.
I was just about to say.
Speaker 1 (35:09):
Nate's always been a huge proponent of local I'm a
proponent of grassroots localorganizations.
Speaker 2 (35:15):
I I I get very frustrated when you know the
bureaucracy.
It's so clunky and so peopletalk about oh, washington, so
like let's Pew passed a bill inWashington DC, right for
recovery.
So it works for somebody inFort Wayne, indiana.
It doesn't work for somebody inSpokane, washington.
It works for somebody inSpokane, washington.
It doesn't work for somebody inAustin, texas.
It doesn't work for somebody inArkansas, it doesn't work for
(35:35):
somebody in.
You need people that are on theground and even I think our reps
at the House level would evenadmit and, of course, at the
Senate level right, thedistricts were created so you
had direct representation inWashington.
Us here in Allen County couldput together a pretty good
coalition of people who couldsay, hey, here's what our
demographic looks like, here'sthe issues we're facing and
(35:56):
here's how we could probablytackle it and track it directly.
Not that the numbers have to gofrom this place to this place,
to this place to this place, andby the time they get to there,
by the time you get somethingback to Washington state house,
it's probably a year old.
You're making, you're notmaking real time decisions and
by the time you get the fundingthrough, and we saw it with the
opioid epidemic by the time youget the funding through, when
(36:16):
the laws passed, the drugs havechanged, the problems change,
the dynamics have shifted.
It's all we're playing frombehind, I think is a lot of it,
right, that's reactive versusproactive.
And that's why I love grassrootslocal organizations because
they're on the ground, they seethings happening real time.
Speaker 4 (36:33):
People like Asha, people like Teresa, because what
works in Allen County may notwork in Marion County or even
DeKalb.
Speaker 2 (36:39):
County which is right next to us.
I mean, they're a totallydifferent county.
Speaker 4 (36:43):
I teach at Purdue and I take my law and ethics class
at Judge Davis' courtroom whenshe was behind the bench, and I
still take them to Judge Hansyeah, that you know.
Mental health court,restoration court I mean that's
the biggest secret in ourcommunity.
Restoration court, I meanthat's the biggest secret in our
community.
(37:03):
And to see, first of all, youknow, every person who goes up
to that microphone first of allis greeted with respect and they
ask them.
Speaker 2 (37:11):
How are?
Speaker 4 (37:11):
you today.
You know, and you know they'reshocked by how they're.
You know they're in a courtroom.
They're scared as all get out.
You know they're one step awayfrom being incarcerated, but
somebody's given them a chance.
And even though they made amistake and even though that
their their piss tests came backnegative I mean, came back
(37:32):
positive You're not sittingthere and slapping them on their
hand.
They're saying that you know,we know you're human and you
know that life throws youcurveballs.
We just have not given youenough of tools so that when
life throws you challenges thatyou don't turn back to using,
you'll turn back to doingsomething more positive.
I mean I sat there and I calledyou Nate.
(37:54):
I mean I sat there and I justcried because it was like why
wasn't my son given thisopportunity?
Why isn't every addict giventhis opportunity?
And I'm not saying that everyaddict deserves a second, third
and fourth chance, because somepeople just don't want to change
.
I mean I'm a true believer thatyou can lead a horse to water,
(38:15):
but you can't make them drink it.
So I have learned the hard wayand I'm sure a lot of your
viewers too, is that I alwaysthought that Ross hit rock
bottom.
He has yet to hit rock bottom.
Speaker 2 (38:28):
There's always a trap door.
You can always go lower right?
Speaker 1 (38:31):
Yep, absolutely.
That is something that we talkabout all the time.
Speaker 2 (38:33):
Specific to the trauma.
That is kind of you know it's,I mean.
But someone told me once andhis name is white mullet X is
very wise man.
I don't know if you guys knowwhite mullet X.
He's been involved drug courtfor years and uh, he said, if
you don't deal with your pain,just transfer it to everybody
else.
You know, at one point in mylife I was like a sprinkler of
pain, just spraying everythingthat was around me, people that
(38:55):
were closest to me, and, uh,cause trauma for a lot of people
, especially specifically myparents and my, my sisters, okay
, especially my younger sister.
I try I don't like to talkabout my younger sister, cause I
get very emotional.
Tommy seen me cry really hard acouple of times talking about
her.
Um, she's doing fine now.
She's actually a master's insocial work and she's helping
people in Northwestern hospitaltoday.
(39:15):
Um, so something positive cameout of all my crap.
But, um, you know, they wentthrough a lot of things they
didn't ask for, you know, andone of the things we were
talking about, they found meoverdosed multiple times.
You know she was a highschooler.
She had to hold my head up inthe back of, of, of, of of my
dad's car one time, while I wasblue, while she's trying to help
me breathe, Um, and we had topull over so the paramedics
(39:36):
could, could pull me out andNarcan me, um, but she was
watching me die in her arms.
A young, a young girl, probablyhigh school age, and, um, you
know just also what my motherwent through.
My father, uh, just always,always expecting that call.
You know, my mother would tellme that when I was home she
wouldn't sleep at night morethan an hour, cause she'd wake
up every night and she'd come tomy room and she'd put her hand
(39:57):
on my back to make sure I wasstill breathing, and then she'd
go back to bed for a little bitand she'd wake up in a panic and
come into my room and and andyou know just what that was like
for her, and then also both ofyou, what you experienced, as
you know, family members and andthen how you've dealt with that
sense.
You know, because there's a lotof people out there that are
traumatized, and we were talkingabout too that the caregivers,
(40:18):
mothers in particular, right,have a special bond with their
children, and you experience thetrauma and you keep going
because you got other kids andyou got grandkids and you have
to be the strong one.
But it's okay not to be thestrong one.
It's okay to say I have traumaand deal with it.
So if you guys both want tospeak on that, I mean we'd be
grateful to hear that.
Speaker 4 (40:38):
You know, sitting here next to you, I just feel
really guilty sometimes, becausethere's many times that I wish
Ross died.
Speaker 3 (40:46):
Well, and I've also talked to other parents who have
experienced the life ofaddiction Like my.
My son's struggle was a fewshort months.
My son's struggle was a fewshort months, so I didn't have,
and I found myself saying Godtook him from me.
(41:07):
But I look at that as ablessing because I couldn't
survive the years and years andyears of the trauma with my son
alive but not being not living.
Speaker 1 (41:22):
I guess Nate and I were just talking about that
last week.
So don't feel, don't feel that.
Speaker 3 (41:28):
Because my heart goes out to you because of your
current situation.
You know your son is very muchalive and mine is not, but it
doesn't mean that our traumaisn't equally as traumatic.
You know it's terrible.
Speaker 4 (41:44):
It is.
I mean, when you said thatabout your mom, I remember many
times going to Ross and just youknow, are you breathing?
You know, and I do, I feel so.
You know, as a suicideprevention specialist for the
state, you know I'm on manysuicide scenes, you know, and
you know why couldn't that behim?
(42:06):
You know.
So at least I could have putclosure, you know, at least his
daughters could put closure.
They could move on and not haveto go through life being
ashamed of their dad.
I felt really bad for mygranddaughter, audrina, a couple
weeks ago when somebody askedher what her dad does and she
(42:31):
didn't even answer.
And I said to her later I said,mama, why didn't you tell them
what she goes?
Mama, what would I tell them?
He's a drug user, he's a drugpusher.
So you know, it's just.
I don't know, it's just.
(42:51):
I'm just so mad at him.
I'm just so mad at him.
I'm just so mad at him becauseI, he had the.
He had a great life.
You know too much of a greatlife honestly.
I mean I, he had the.
He had a great life.
You know too much of a greatlife honestly.
I mean he was the Amelia Marcosof skateboards.
You know he had moreskateboards than anybody, than
anybody who even goes toskateboard park.
You know, I always felt that Ihad to, you know, make up for
(43:16):
his dad not being there for him.
You know.
You know he was a great student.
He always wanted to be anarchitect.
He always wanted to build thefastest and growing fastest, the
fastest roller coaster at cedarpoint, because we always went
there for family vacations yearafter year and he, oh, and I got
him those connect things and hewould make those every time.
(43:38):
And you know, and it's just,it's just to me, I just, I'm
just so mad at him right now.
I'm just so, so mad at him.
Speaker 3 (43:46):
I'm more mad at the drug, because in all the
families that I've met in this,it's almost been four years
since I met with you guys thefirst time and all these kids
were amazing.
All these kids have brightfutures and goals and plans and
kids that they leave behind, andyou know I've not met a mom yet
(44:09):
that has said my child, youknow, deserve this, or you know
we all have great things to sayabout our kids and in terms of
the trauma, you know that thisis for me as as just
experiencing the loss of a child, the trauma is very similar to
probably what your parents havefelt, because when I got that
(44:31):
call every call thereafter Iassociate it with something bad
has happened.
Speaker 2 (44:38):
I didn't even think of that, wow.
Speaker 3 (44:39):
Even when I pick up the phone, I have to listen to
the background noise of thatcall because, depending like, if
I hear and there's been peoplethat are laughing, but to me it
sounds like crying I'm instantlyespecially when it's my
daughter or when it's one of mygrandkids I'm ready to put my
shoes on and have my.
(44:59):
I'm out the door.
Speaker 2 (45:00):
You're in fight or flight.
I'm in fight or flight becausesomething's wrong.
Speaker 3 (45:03):
Some.
The only reason somebody iscalling me is because they need
me.
And somebody has died and it'staken me again.
We're almost four years into itand I still and my daughter has
made the comment like, whycan't you just answer the phone
Like normal people?
I'm like, I don't know as muchas I want to, I'm afraid.
Speaker 2 (45:23):
Trauma changes us.
Speaker 3 (45:24):
It really does.
It really does.
And I'll never do CPR on a liveperson, ever again.
Never expected I do it on myown child, but that it's taken
that away from me.
So it's more.
You know I'm I'm a rescuer andas much as I would want to run
to help, I would have to turn ablind eye because it would take
me back into the throes ofsomeone is losing a child,
(45:47):
somebody is dying, and evenagain the guilt of did I do CPR
right?
Did I follow protocol?
And so the trauma is neverending.
The trauma is never ending andthe work that I do with Java and
(46:08):
in the community has its ownspecial healing, which is why
I'll continue to help these moms.
I reached out to a mom todaylike let's do coffee, let's do
lunch, let's do something,because I know not everyone can
be in the front lines, noteveryone can talk in front of
the microphone, talk publiclyabout their pain, and others can
, and there's been some peoplethat I've met that I never
(46:28):
thought I would be able to seethem rise up.
And when I witness a family gofrom the very worst to, I see
them speaking, I see themoutwardly helping other families
.
And that's the most beautifulthing to me, because I know I'm
not going to take credit for anyof that, but I played a small
part in reminding them thatyou're still there's, you're
(46:52):
still a fighter.
So let's direct your anger,let's direct your pain on
something that you can bringchange, like you have a voice,
and let's put action to that.
Speaker 1 (47:02):
Powerful.
Yeah, and that's why Nate and Iwanted to have both of you on
the show, because you both are.
Like you just said.
Not everybody can or is willingto stand up and talk in front
of a microphone and share theirstory and share their truth like
you guys have done today.
So we're both very grateful forwhat you're doing in the
community.
You guys are both making a hugepositive impact.
So, thank you again.
Speaker 4 (47:23):
We've got about a minute left or so.
Thank you both for yourleadership.
Speaker 1 (47:27):
Is there anything else that you guys want to add?
Just before we end it?
Speaker 4 (47:29):
I would really like to get a feel if I'd like to
start a support group forcaregivers or family members who
are left behind, to care forthe grandkids.
Speaker 2 (47:43):
I think that's a great idea.
Speaker 4 (47:44):
I think that we're more, our voices are heard when
we're unified Absolutely andgiven a testimony, because what
I experienced, what youexperienced and what somebody
else experienced is totallydifferent.
Speaker 2 (47:58):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (47:59):
And I'm very.
I have a village, my parents, Ihave many siblings and cousins
and stuff that are willing tostep up, but I also know there
are people who have nobody.
Speaker 2 (48:12):
Absolutely.
Speaker 4 (48:13):
And I think that we need to come together and be
unified and we need to have ourvoices heard.
Come together and be unifiedand we need to have our voices
heard because if we're onlygoing to get to the bottom of
this epidemic, we can't justdeal, we can't just meet the
needs of the addict no we needto meet the needs of those who
are left behind because, as yousaid earlier nate, it is a
(48:34):
vicious cycle yeah, it is.
And we need to.
We need to have upstreaminitiatives so that we're not
looking at things andapproaching things downstream.
Speaker 2 (48:47):
Yeah, yep, I think we can continue here in a minute.
If you want to catch the restof the podcast, it'll be on
Facebook and on all the otherpodcast platforms, but with that
we're going to wrap up thisepisode for TV.
Speaker 1 (49:00):
Yeah, all right.
Thank you, guys for tuning in.
We'll see you next time, thankyou.
Welcome in everybody to the Bare Knuckle Recovery
Podcast.
As always, I'm Tommy Streeter,this is Nate Mollering and, as
you guys can see, we've got twoguests with us today.
We've got Alice Jordan, who isthe mom of an addict, and then
we've got Teresa Julie Ratt, whoanyone who has been following
us for the last three yearsyou've definitely heard us
mention Teresa's name, I don'tknow countless times, so we'll
(00:34):
talk about that here in a littlebit.
Nate, I'm kind of going to letyou take over, since this one
was your idea.
You invited the guests for thisone, so what are we going to be
talking about today?
Speaker 2 (00:45):
We're going to talk about a couple of things, but
really I think the focus fortoday is going to be on really
it's going to be on the familiesof people kind of left behind,
whether they've lost their lovedone to substance use or whether
their person's still outstruggling with substance use.
You know, my friend Alice and Iwere having a conversation the
other day and it came up thatyou know she has taken on the
(01:07):
responsibility of raising herthree of her grandchildren and
you know, teresa and I went toWashington together back in 2022
.
It was September 2022.
And there was a woman who spokeat the roundtable we were at
with Congress.
And there was a woman who spokeat the roundtable we were at
with Congress.
(01:28):
She said that you're going toface a youth and elder crisis
like you've never seen before.
There's a whole generationmissing in the middle Tommy and
I's generation we just talkedabout, both of us in our early
30s but the generation of peoplethat are kind of in their early
40ies, twenties and even someof the teens right, where that
group has either beenincarcerated, they're out on the
(01:50):
street or they've passed away.
And she said I am 63 years oldand I'm taking care of my
four-year-old granddaughter.
She said I am tired.
She said I love her to death.
She said but in 10 years I'mgoing to be 73 and she's going
to be 14.
(02:10):
Who's going to take care of meand who's going to take care of
her?
And I just sat there and I saidthat's a that's a good question
.
You know, we talk all the timeabout the people that are left
behind, and the and and the timeabout the people that are left
behind and even the people thatare lost, but I think we often.
What does that really mean,though?
What are the details associatedwith that?
(02:31):
What does that look like?
And most people don't evenbegin to understand or can't
even visualize that, unless wecome out and we talk about it
and we paint a very real picture, through our own life
experiences, of what that lookslike.
Right, and we paint a very realpicture, through our own life
experiences, of what that lookslike Right.
So one of the things, too,we're going to do real quickly
is have Teresa kind of give us alittle background on herself,
(02:51):
and then Alice will have yougive a background on yourself,
but, teresa, since you're bareknuckle recovery famous, please
share a little bit aboutyourself, of course, java, your
organization, and then also howwe met Sure bit about yourself,
of course, java, yourorganization, and then also how
we met Sure.
Speaker 3 (03:13):
So I started my advocacy journey back in 2018,
when we started supportingfamilies through Java, which
stands for Justice,accountability and Victim
Advocacy.
We were supporting families ofhomicide victims and at that
time, I was passionate aboutdoing that, just because I just
love loving on people andhelping any way that I can.
But I always, at that time,felt very unequipped to talk to
(03:37):
these parents who have lostchildren, because I was still
able to go home to my kids atnight.
So supporting them it went along way, because when you lose
a child, you just want to beheard.
You don't really want advice,so to speak.
You just want somebody tolisten to you and have your
feelings validated.
(03:58):
So, fast forward to May 12th of2020, when I got the call and it
was my son, the tablesimmediately turned and it was at
the time I didn't know when Iresponded to the call.
I'm the one that found my sonunresponsive.
(04:18):
I'm the one that called 911.
I'm the one that administeredCPR and during that time, I
remember thinking what happened,and that's the first thing
people want to know whathappened?
I didn't know.
I thought my son hadexperienced some sort of medical
emergency or something.
Drugs was probably the farthestfrom my mind.
(04:40):
Now I know we'll talk abouthindsight later, but at the time
my son had been battling somelegal issues and I knew that he
had endured a lot of trauma.
Just in his own circle offriends he had self-medicated.
His drug of choice at the timewas marijuana, and so that was
(05:05):
the extent of what I knew, andso when this happened I didn't
want to label him because, again, not knowing.
And then I waited for thetoxicology to come back, and it
was at that time that I readthat it was attributed to
fentanyl and that he had over 10times the lethal dose of
fentanyl in his system.
(05:26):
And I learned that from thecoroner.
Because I can't, those reportsare non-human readable.
Sometimes you don't know whatyou're looking at.
So I'm staring at this piece ofpaper and again I don't know
what fentanyl is.
And so I started to researchand just thought you know, if
this is a drug that's out herein our streets, why hasn't it
(05:48):
hit my radar?
Why have I never heard about it?
And it's killing people Likewhy isn't this on the news?
Why isn't this a bulletin?
And at the time that was at thebrink of COVID.
But with this taking lives theway it was, and again I thought
I was alone.
I didn't know that this was aepidemic.
(06:09):
But I almost, as a parent,expected a COVID-like response,
a notification, a bulletinacross the TV screen that just
is making people aware that thisis risky, this is dangerous.
So just out of desperation Iwas calling and trying to meet
with anybody, talk to anybodythat would talk to me.
(06:31):
And that's when a friend ofmine pointed me to you two and
I'll never forget that first sitdown that we had.
I met with you both and youguys were both there to answer
every question that I had.
You made me feel like therewere others like me out there
(06:52):
and I learned that you guys weretalking about it and just never
hit my radar.
And I tell people now that eventhen, in that sit down with you
guys, I would have never labeledmy son an addict.
Even in that moment, knowingfentanyl is his cause of death,
I still would have said nobecause in my mind I was on that
(07:15):
stigma bandwagon.
I was, you know.
No, addiction is bad and no,not my son.
My son was a good kid, like hedid.
He, yes, he made bad choices,but he would have never done
anything beyond marijuana.
You know he would have never.
And so, again, just beinguneducated at the time.
I tell people now that my storyhas changed slightly, because I
(07:36):
do.
My son had addiction-liketendencies and was trying to
self-medicate, trying to cope,trying to take the pain away by
any means necessary.
And if that came in the form ofa pill that's going to take him
away from the trauma that hewas experiencing and the mental
health, that just went unnoticedbecause then I didn't know the
(07:59):
signs on what he needed.
So all that kind of factoredinto me even picking up the
phone and contacting you guysand we had a very good
informative.
It was very informative to meand my takeaway.
One of the takeaways was youknow, this was not a parental
failure, because when you lose achild or when your child makes
(08:24):
bad choices, you instantly blameyourself and that's natural.
You know, as a parent, youthink where did I go wrong?
What could I have donedifferently?
What could I have said thatwould have made him choose
differently?
And just understanding now thateveryone is given free will and
that you know I cannot holdthat burden of any choice that
(08:49):
my son made.
There are things I can do,which is we can probably get
into that as part of ourdiscussion, but just getting out
in the community and makingothers aware that you are not
alone.
Speaker 2 (09:04):
Absolutely yeah, and I think you know what you've
shared with us will lead intoour larger discussion too, about
the.
You know you talk aboutepidemic and, just like with
COVID, you know where there werea lot of people that got sick
and passed away.
There's a lot of things that,after the fact, the shockwave
you have to deal with right, andthat's kind of what we're going
(09:29):
to be talking about today, isthe shockwave of addiction.
You know whether it's cause.
You know we get our loved onesstolen from us.
Sometimes they pass away, butsometimes they're stolen from us
while they're still alive, youknow, um.
So with that, you know, alice,do you want to share a little
bit about yourself a?
Speaker 4 (09:40):
little bit about your story.
Um, uh, there's so much.
It's been for 15 years of hell.
Um, my son was a very, very,very good soccer player.
Um, as a matter of fact, hissophomore year at high school,
he was offered a full ride frommy alma mater to play soccer.
(10:02):
The kid could make a goal froma corner kick.
I was, you know.
Um, my husband at the time wasnot Ross's father, but he was
the one who raised him.
You know, um, ross, his junioryear or so, um tore his ACL and
he was going to the DrPediatrics Associates.
(10:24):
You know, when he you turn 18,you know the kids could go to
the doctors by themselves, drivethem there themselves.
So, knowing that Ross, you know, had tore his ACL and I just,
you know, I just didn't think.
You know, hindsight is 20-20.
You know, I just didn't thinkwhat he was doing in regards to
(10:45):
continuing his medication orwhatnot.
I thought he was going tophysical therapy.
You know, a person who only getspaid once a month.
I didn't go through my mailevery day, you know, I just do
it once a month.
You get those EOBs.
I mean, there was an extensiveamount and again, you know, I
blame myself for a lot of it andagain I blame myself for a lot
(11:05):
of it.
But I also was noticing when Ilooked at those EO Beasles
explanation of benefits, rosswas going to this doctor a lot
and I was like how could I nothave caught that?
So the first time I ever gaveRoss Narcan at the time his
(11:26):
nine-year-old daughter found him.
There's nothing in this worldthat prepares you as a parent to
find your child blue.
So I gave him the Narcan.
Thank God Kevin Hunter gave methat Narcan.
Speaker 2 (11:42):
Yeah, Kevin Hunter.
Speaker 4 (11:44):
So go to Lutheran Hospital and you know, I don't
know what's going on, but thenurses do, you know, and they I
don't know, but they made mefeel so less of you know.
I didn't know what was going on.
Ross knew why he was in there.
I didn't know what was going on.
You know I thought he had anadverse, you know, reaction to I
(12:06):
don't know, I can't tell you.
My focus really was dealingwith Audrina, who thought her
dad died, you know.
So I remember looking at Ross,just like it was yesterday, and
I said to him Ross, mijo, howdid we get here?
He says, mom, when they shutdown the doctors, it was easier
(12:34):
for me to get heroin on thestreet than it was a pill.
And I remember sitting back inmy chair thinking, oh my God, I
was part of that system.
Long story short, ross has gone,got into school.
He was doing so well.
He's a great dad, nate.
He's a great dad.
He loves his girls.
(12:55):
He has five girls.
He was going to school.
He would relapse.
I never would want to believeit because I believed everything
.
Speaker 2 (13:07):
He said to me you want to believe that, you wanted
to believe everything for thegood right, and you were a
family of faith, you know.
Speaker 4 (13:13):
And so ross, you know , ended up getting married to
another addict.
They ended up having twochildren.
One's just been today, she'sthree months old, but she was
born addicted and so over theyears, ross has continued to use
(13:41):
.
Things I've learned inattending support groups of moms
of kids who are addicts is thatyou're never to turn your back
on them, because everybody elsehas Right, and I feel I'm fairly
educated.
You know what's the differencebetween an enabler and
supporting your kid.
Speaker 2 (14:00):
Right, right.
Speaker 4 (14:01):
So now being at an age of 58 years old, you know,
just three months ago I just satdown with a financial advisor
and was planning on retiring ina couple of years.
Speaker 2 (14:13):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (14:13):
That ain't happening.
That is not happening and it'slike I feel very upset with him
right now because he was justrecently arrested for selling
fentanyl, a level two felony,and I just can't even put my
mind around that, and so much sothat I have blocked the jail
(14:41):
calls because my energies andthe space I have left in my
brain and my mentality, I haveto focus on these girls
mentality, I have to focus onthese girls.
And so you know I wanted again,when I reached out to Nate that
(15:01):
you know I wanted to get him inrehab.
You know I've.
You know I have little 401kleft because of all.
You know, when you pay 10 grandfor a 60 day stay and they stay
sick days, they don't give yourmoney back, and so many times I
do feel alone.
But because of my field, I knowthat I have a very powerful
(15:22):
platform, and my powerfulplatform is this is that I speak
my truth.
What's going on with my kids ismy life today and I want to
break that vicious cycle andletting him sit there and face
(15:43):
his consequences because momcan't fix this one and Ross,
I've also understood and I'vekind of always made excuses is
that Ross's dad has alwaysdenied him and he has a brother
that is less than two weeksyounger than him and they look
exactly alike and he lives withhis father and that's always
(16:07):
been a thing for Ross.
And again, not that I'm makingexcuses, but I also know that
mental health and trauma impactsaddicts.
It's real.
And and and, and you know, andfor anybody that doesn't, I'll
fight you to the very endbecause of they all are
connected and they're allintertwined.
And you know, as I said to youall earlier, you know I'm in the
(16:29):
field of saving everybodyelse's kid and it's, you know,
when I was always out therehelping my own community,
sometimes I felt my communitywas failing me because there's
no, there's, there was noaffordable services back then,
you know, or local, or you hadto wait, or you know, you know
(16:53):
just all kinds of things.
I think also that the way thesystem is now is that it's
broken.
I mean shocker, you know,because we as families need to
be part of that continuity ofcare.
And I'm sorry, f HIPAA, fprivacy, because it's invading
in my privacy and I'm having toput everything else on the side.
(17:19):
And I'll do everything for mygrandchildren, I'll do anything
for my I'll get my life for mygrandchildren, but in order for
us, because Ross is getting outsometime, all addicts are
getting out sometime and we need, we can't set them up to fail
right.
I mean, I'll know, you know,when Ross got out of prison the
first time, he couldn't even get, get out of the apartment
because he had a felony.
Speaker 2 (17:37):
Right you know I mean these transitional houses.
Speaker 4 (17:40):
I mean, I mean, and it's not in a section that
further stigmatizes a further,you know, knocks a nail in that
coffin that they can never runaway from that.
You know that bad choice thatthey made.
And I'm not making excuses forwhat Ross did.
I'm not because he had avillage.
Ross had a village.
(18:01):
He was more fortunate than a lotof people and a lot of people
even told him over and over andover again Ross, you're lucky,
you still have people that callyou or you can call, or they
accept your call or they sendyou money or they send you a
letter.
You still have those and it'snot one person, it's your family
, right, and he still never sawthat and it's just.
(18:22):
You know.
Now I feel that the breakdownin services right now is for the
people who are stepping in, forthese kids, because we all know
, it's not a secret, we don'thave enough foster families as
it is Right, 100% yeah, and evento find a foster family that
(18:45):
will take a three-month-old thatwas born addicted to heroin,
fentanyl and methadone andmorphine, right, because of
stigma.
Speaker 2 (18:50):
Exactly Right and morphine Right Because of stigma
.
Speaker 4 (18:52):
Exactly Right.
So, you know, I just you know,I want all your listeners and
your viewers to know that you'renot alone if you're in my
situation.
You know it's not a club weever wanted to be in.
No, you know, definitely don'twant the T-shirt or the
sweatshirt, but it is what it isand I think that changes need
(19:15):
to be made in the system so thatit's not.
You know, it's, it's not avicious cycle because, also, I
have to worry about the traumaof the girls.
Now, right, I could no longerlie to the 15 year old.
No, you know, I just can't, Ican't lie to her anymore about
it.
No, you know, and uh, and it'scostly to have somebody in
(19:35):
prison, it's costly to have himin jail, isn't?
Speaker 2 (19:38):
it.
Speaker 4 (19:38):
Yeah, you know it is, it's costly, but you know, ross
made his bed and now his mom ismaking him finally live in it.
Speaker 2 (19:46):
And I think we really want families to realize that.
You know, both of you are soinvolved in the community.
You know that it can happen toanybody.
It can happen to anybody, right, you know?
I mean, I think that I think alot of people fall into that
category where they just feel somuch shame and guilt, you know,
but it's, it's not your faultas a parent, and you know, and
(20:07):
there are people out there thatare going through the same
struggle and I think it'simportant those people connect
with each other too.
Speaker 4 (20:12):
Well, I also I think it's important those people
connect with each other too Well, I also I think I think that as
a society we need to change thelanguage, because we all know
language is very critical whenit comes to mental health.
In the field of addiction, youknow, we need to start first of
all accepting mental health likeany other socially accepted
illness, but it's a disease.
It is a disease.
I mean, look how hard it is forpeople to stop smoking
(20:34):
cigarettes.
You know what I mean.
And that's legal, you know so.
It's just sometimes theignorance, the level of
ignorance, the level ofinsensitivity as well, I mean,
further perpetuates that stigma,that shame, that loneliness,
right, that also opens the doorsto other things as well.
(20:57):
Sure For that particularcaregiver to self-start,
self-medicating, unhealthily.
Yes, you know, I mean, it's aterrible cycle.
Speaker 3 (21:06):
And you would never call someone having to undergo
cancer treatment as selfish.
Speaker 2 (21:12):
Right, no, right, no, I mean no one, no one chooses
to be an addict.
You know, like no one,especially the, you know there's
people that are predisposed toaddiction.
You know, whether their brainis not wired properly, whatever
it is right, whether it's trauma, whether it's genetic or
whether it's their environment,right.
But there are things that thatopen us up.
I, you know.
I know the first time I took asubstance, right.
(21:34):
But there are things that thatopen us up.
I, you know.
I know the first time I took asubstance it did something to me
that it doesn't do to mostpeople, right, like, I almost
like to describe it to people.
And some people get offendedwhen I say this cause.
You know they don't want to beassociated with addicts, but
it's like type one, type two,diabetes.
I believe there's type oneaddicts, there's type two,
meaning there's people who areborn predisposed, but also I
always caution people with thetype two.
You can party so much that youbeat the crap out of that part
(21:56):
of your brain that feelspleasure, right, and and and
pain that it can.
It can mess it up to where itcan't reach homeostasis again
anymore, right, right.
But you know, I think it'simportant that we, we do
recognize it.
It's a disease that centers inin in the brain, right and it
(22:16):
and it really does take overpeople's lives and it's that
fight or flight people that arecraving and that do these things
.
Literally, they, they feel likethey're going to die if they
don't get it.
Your brain is screaming we needthis to survive.
It really, it literallyreorders the hierarchy of need
in your mind, whereas, like youmight have you know, food, sleep
, shelter, sex, whatever else itwipes the whiteboard and it
rates heroin, heroin, heroin,heroin.
(22:39):
That's why you see people wholook like they haven't eaten for
days.
Cause they probably haven'tbecause they have right, cause
when you get 20 bucks, you'renot like, well, let me go get $5
for the food.
You're like I'm, if I can get$15 for the heroin versus 20,
I'm going to do $20.
I'll figure out the food later,you know.
And it and it does the samething to people when they're
parents of children, right?
People say, oh, you're a badparent.
Well, again, everything insideof them is screaming that we
(23:04):
have to get this substance whichwe found, which is basically
our solution to life.
I always tell people the firsttime I tried an opiate, I had a
semi-spiritual experience.
People probably think well, howis that possible?
I felt like there was somethingmissing my entire life.
When I took an opiate For thefirst time, I felt this is how
everybody else feels and this ishow I should feel every single
day for the rest of my life, nomatter what it takes, no matter
(23:24):
what happened to me.
It was always all I just haveto get some opiates so I can
think and figure out a plan.
I could have just got over it,out of jail for possession or
getting caught in a stingoperation at a drug house.
I got to get high so I canfigure out what to do next.
And that goes against allrationale of human beings, right
?
So that's why I think it's sohard for people on the outside
looking in to understand whenyou really don't understand it.
(23:47):
And if you educate yourself,you do start to learn about the
brain, science and everythingbehind it and how our society
predisposes people to besusceptible to addictive
behavior.
You could talk a lot about.
We have a dopamine economy,meaning that you're sold
something every five seconds youturn on the TV.
If you get a Toyota, yourfamily's going to all go on
vacation together.
Everyone's going to be happyand they're going to have a
great time.
You're going to get to singalong like they were when they
(24:08):
were kids.
Then you can go throughMcDonald's and your kids get a
Happy Meal and they're going tohave a great time, right.
And then you go home and youbuy a Samsung and you can watch
Netflix.
And you buy a Samsung, thewhole family is going to watch
movies just like they used to,right?
And it's this next thing.
This next thing, it's thesehits of dopamine in our brain.
So that way, when we get thatdrug, your brain's already wired
that way, right?
(24:28):
And we start kids from a youngage on that stuff.
So when they get it, they'renot prepared.
They're not prepared.
Speaker 3 (24:32):
Right.
Right In terms of lack ofservices.
I mean, we know the jail is notequipped to offer treatment to
those who become incarcerated,find themselves incarcerated,
whether it's due to a drugcharge or not.
We've got those that aregetting jailed, that are users,
(24:57):
and so we know that behind barsthere is a lack of treatment and
just things that would helpcoach them and rehabilitate them
mentally and physically, justto help them, wean them off of
the drugs and just educate themon what they're battling.
And because of that I feel maybeif something like that was
(25:22):
offered in the jail, my son, myson, had a short incarceration
stint.
It was three months and he, Ibelieve, was experimenting with
these drugs prior to hisincarceration.
So when he was released, againunbeknownst to me, he was
battling an addiction of somesort.
(25:42):
So when he was released,tolerance again, hindsight I
know now tolerance probablyplayed a factor in his death
because within 46 hours of hisrelease is when I found him
unresponsive and which led tohis death.
So again, you know things likeNarcan I didn't know what that
(26:03):
was at the time, things that hewas battling.
Maybe I could have helped.
But you know I won't take thatwhole responsibility on my own
shoulders because he was intheir house for three months in
the jail, and so the lack ofjust education and treatment in
(26:25):
general materials, curriculum ofsome sort, just reading
materials, just readingmaterials, something that
supports or encouragesrehabilitation.
Speaker 4 (26:35):
You know, it just makes me so mad that those
things are not available.
I realize they've done a crime,they've committed a crime.
I get that, I understand that.
But you know what?
Let's help them be a betterperson, because they're going to
be back into society, you know.
So let's not make them havethat sense that they're not
(26:57):
worthy or that they're nevergoing to be given a chance.
I didn't mean to interrupt you,but darn it, it just makes me
so mad that there's no resourcesthat is later than 2005 that
they can get their hands onother than the Bible.
Speaker 3 (27:14):
And we know, know, they're all issued tablets.
Speaker 4 (27:17):
So if there's, how much it is to use the tablets
that who's got to pay for it?
Right, right you know, family,yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:23):
When it really goes to show something that you were
talking about earlier, alice,which is you know.
So Chris was sober for threemonths while he was in jail.
The drugs weren't the problem.
If the drugs were the problem,when he got out he wouldn't have
started using drugs again.
Speaker 4 (27:36):
You were talking about how mental health and
addiction go hand in hand andthat is something that we talk
about all the time, but that's aperfect example of that.
Speaker 1 (27:43):
You're right, when he was in there and I don't think
J-CAP was part of.
Speaker 3 (27:47):
Allen.
Speaker 1 (27:47):
County Jail at the time it is now it.
We're definitely big fans ofJ-CAP.
We love that program, but it'sstill.
It's such a small program.
It's great that they have it.
If they could expand it, thatwould be incredible.
Speaker 4 (27:57):
But see, the thing is , why doesn't our community want
to expand it?
Look how much it's costing usto incarcerate them.
You know we can't even decide.
You know which shovel they'regoing to use for the new jail.
You know who's going to.
You know who's going to get allthat glory for that.
You know, let's start.
Let's let's put in money on theon the beginning and not put it
in on the on the on the outset,so we don't have to fight about
(28:20):
how many bonds we're going tobe taken out for the jail.
You know, I mean, I understandjail is not the Ritz Carlton.
I get that and I don't thinkthat they should.
You know they should have theability to have all the great
things.
I'm not saying that.
But let's help them be become abetter person, because they're
(28:41):
going to be your neighbor, right, they're going to be your Uber
driver.
They're going to be.
You know, they're going to bein our communities.
They're going to be yourneighbor.
Speaker 2 (28:48):
We need them in our community.
We can't afford to throw themaway, and the thing is, I just
don't understand it.
Speaker 4 (28:53):
It's not rocket science.
Speaker 2 (28:55):
Right.
Speaker 4 (28:55):
You know, ray Charles could see the benefits of all
this and he's blind.
Yeah, you know.
And I just don't understandJ-CAP.
I don't understand why theprevious administration did not
want J-CAP in our program whenthere was so many research that
it was in our own state thatshowed how beneficial it was.
And the thing is it wasn'tacademia us at academia saying
that this program worked.
(29:16):
These the results were all peerreported, meaning that it came
from the people who received theservices.
They said it from their ownmouth.
If it wouldn't have been forthem, they'd be using again or
they would have been out robbing, you know, or thieving, or
raping, or whatever, whatever.
If it wasn't for this program,yeah, or whatever, whatever.
Speaker 1 (29:32):
If it wasn't for this program.
Yeah, and I mean.
We see on a daily basis thepositive impact.
Speaker 4 (29:35):
Right, exactly Just J-Cap alone has in our community
.
Right, exactly.
Speaker 1 (29:39):
I see it in Kosciuszko County.
Speaker 4 (29:41):
Yes, I mean, look what I mean.
Nate Tommy, aisha Diss, theygive me hope.
Yep, you know they give me hope.
And why is?
Because you know, because youbenefited from good programs.
And Aisha, she speaks her truthtoo.
She says that she wasincarcerated, she was this, she
(30:01):
was that and people neverthought she would be.
She never thought she would be.
Speaker 3 (30:06):
And look at her now.
Speaker 2 (30:07):
She has her own 501c3 .
Speaker 4 (30:08):
Helping people.
You know, yes, and in the jail.
And again, it's not the Hilton.
I understand that and they haveto pay for what they've done,
but the entire family shouldn'thave to pay.
Speaker 2 (30:19):
Right?
Well, you've got a captiveaudience, I mean literally,
while they're in jail.
So why don't we do somethingelse?
It's supposed to be theDepartment of Corrections.
Why aren't we correcting?
Right, we have to correct theunderlying behavior and the
underlying reasons why theybehave that way.
Speaker 1 (30:34):
You know if you could take someone, you know if you
have them for a year, it's theperfect opportunity for them,
because while they're not injail they might not ask for that
help, but while they're sittingthere not doing anything else,
if it's presented and offered tothem, or even if you say, oh, I
don't want to do it and you'relike well, you're going to do it
, You're here, this is whyyou're here, You're going to do
it.
Speaker 2 (30:51):
You know, some people say, oh well, people only do it
if they want to.
I don't believe that.
I believe that like I know somany people that were put on
drug court and I know you haveto voluntarily go to drug court,
but that doesn't mean theywanted to do it, they didn't
want to get a felony, uh, but Iknow people that were also court
ordered to go to treatment andthe up one day.
(31:11):
and they're like you know what?
I'm not dope sick today.
I laughed today.
Huh, you know, maybe there'ssomething to this sobriety
recovery thing.
Maybe I'll hang around for alittle bit and see what it's
about.
And then eventually they startgetting stuff back and they're
like you know what?
I don't want to go pick upagain.
I want to be in recovery.
I didn't know I wanted it, butit's something that I have now
(31:32):
and I want to keep it, you know.
So you have them in there.
Let's do as much as we can torehabilitate let's you know what
I mean Like let's.
If they don't know how to read,let's teach them how to read.
If they don't know how to write, let's teach them how to write
If they don't know how to staysober.
Let's teach them how to staysober, let's.
We could do more and more.
And it's like you said, itcosts so much.
(31:53):
The recidivism costs even more,right.
Like you know, it costs a lotto house and feed someone and
then, on top of that, they'regoing to come back because
recidivism rate is super high.
I mean, I don't know this offthe top of my head, but I've
heard it's like 80, 70%,something high, right?
So, if we can get them back outand, as I stated before, these
are people we need.
(32:14):
So, when you're a criminal, youdon't stop being a father.
You don't stop being a mother,you don't stop being a potential
employee, a potential volunteer, right?
You don't stop being someone'sneighbor who used to take their
trash cans down because they'reelderly and they can't do it
themselves.
We need those people back and,like you've said, people like
(32:35):
Asha and other people youmentioned I mean some of the
people that have beenrehabilitated, the people that
have been through crap are someof the best people you'll ever
meet Absolutely Some of the mostempathetic and people that are
the most passionate and able tohelp and speak from life
experience and they can helpothers that are going through it
.
But also the hope is we engagein things like what you alluded
to earlier prevention.
I don't think we do enoughprevention.
No Right, we got to help people.
Speaker 4 (32:53):
It's always downstream, it's downstream.
Speaker 2 (32:55):
Right, somebody said you know you keep pulling people
out of the river.
Let's go upstream and find outwhy they keep falling in Right.
Right, you know, and I can'ttake credit for that, I read it
on Facebook or something, butyou know it's true, right, right
.
Speaker 4 (33:07):
And also, I think, while they captive audience,
they need to prepare them whenthey go out and back into the
community.
They need to prepare when theyhave, when every application for
housing gets denied, you knowthat they get that.
No, no, no.
Speaker 2 (33:26):
And then they get so upset and then they go to back
to their unhealthy coping system.
Speaker 4 (33:28):
Why not just go back?
Speaker 2 (33:28):
and use.
Speaker 4 (33:29):
At least I was, you know, at least I was high and I
could deal with life versus youknow them, just sitting there
and just playing cards all day,Right, you know?
Speaker 1 (33:37):
that is definitely.
One of the flaws with J-CAP isthat it stops when they complete
the program and they either gohome or go to community
corrections, depending on theircase.
But there's another program inIndiana called IRAX.
I'm not sure if you're familiarwith IRAX.
Speaker 4 (33:52):
I just heard about that not too long ago.
Speaker 1 (33:54):
It's similar to JCAP, but it's offered to everybody
in the jail and so they can signup for it.
They meet with a case managerwhile they're there, but it
actually follows them when theyleave the jail.
They continue to meet with thatcase manager to work on all of
that other stuff.
Continuity of care.
Speaker 4 (34:05):
Going back to continuity of care, and I think
also is that we need to stopputting a band-aid on addicts.
It's almost, it's almost to apoint of holistic care, you know
, because a lot of their mentaland physical needs have been,
you know, have not been met overthe years.
You know, not only versustraining, you know them, you
(34:27):
know getting the what they needso that they can support their
family.
They, they can, you know, getback into society, be
contributing members of society,be taxpayers.
Speaker 2 (34:36):
Right, right Right.
Speaker 4 (34:38):
I mean, come on, I just again, it's not rocket
science and I, if I had time, Irun for office and change the
whole damn system honestly,because you know I'm so tired of
our, of our make them from afarand they're not making them
(34:59):
from the, from the shoes of thepeople who are walking in it, or
at least not having us at thetable.
Speaker 2 (35:04):
Well, you know, I've I you know not to get political.
I've always been a proponent.
I was just about to say.
Speaker 1 (35:09):
Nate's always been a huge proponent of local I'm a
proponent of grassroots localorganizations.
Speaker 2 (35:15):
I I I get very frustrated when you know the
bureaucracy.
It's so clunky and so peopletalk about oh, washington, so
like let's Pew passed a bill inWashington DC, right for
recovery.
So it works for somebody inFort Wayne, indiana.
It doesn't work for somebody inSpokane, washington.
It works for somebody inSpokane, washington.
It doesn't work for somebody inAustin, texas.
It doesn't work for somebody inArkansas, it doesn't work for
(35:35):
somebody in.
You need people that are on theground and even I think our reps
at the House level would evenadmit and, of course, at the
Senate level right, thedistricts were created so you
had direct representation inWashington.
Us here in Allen County couldput together a pretty good
coalition of people who couldsay, hey, here's what our
demographic looks like, here'sthe issues we're facing and
(35:56):
here's how we could probablytackle it and track it directly.
Not that the numbers have to gofrom this place to this place,
to this place to this place, andby the time they get to there,
by the time you get somethingback to Washington state house,
it's probably a year old.
You're making, you're notmaking real time decisions and
by the time you get the fundingthrough, and we saw it with the
opioid epidemic by the time youget the funding through, when
(36:16):
the laws passed, the drugs havechanged, the problems change,
the dynamics have shifted.
It's all we're playing frombehind, I think is a lot of it,
right, that's reactive versusproactive.
And that's why I love grassrootslocal organizations because
they're on the ground, they seethings happening real time.
Speaker 4 (36:33):
People like Asha, people like Teresa, because what
works in Allen County may notwork in Marion County or even
DeKalb.
Speaker 2 (36:39):
County which is right next to us.
I mean, they're a totallydifferent county.
Speaker 4 (36:43):
I teach at Purdue and I take my law and ethics class
at Judge Davis' courtroom whenshe was behind the bench, and I
still take them to Judge Hansyeah, that you know.
Mental health court,restoration court I mean that's
the biggest secret in ourcommunity.
Restoration court, I meanthat's the biggest secret in our
community.
(37:03):
And to see, first of all, youknow, every person who goes up
to that microphone first of allis greeted with respect and they
ask them.
Speaker 2 (37:11):
How are?
Speaker 4 (37:11):
you today.
You know, and you know they'reshocked by how they're.
You know they're in a courtroom.
They're scared as all get out.
You know they're one step awayfrom being incarcerated, but
somebody's given them a chance.
And even though they made amistake and even though that
their their piss tests came backnegative I mean, came back
(37:32):
positive You're not sittingthere and slapping them on their
hand.
They're saying that you know,we know you're human and you
know that life throws youcurveballs.
We just have not given youenough of tools so that when
life throws you challenges thatyou don't turn back to using,
you'll turn back to doingsomething more positive.
I mean I sat there and I calledyou Nate.
(37:54):
I mean I sat there and I justcried because it was like why
wasn't my son given thisopportunity?
Why isn't every addict giventhis opportunity?
And I'm not saying that everyaddict deserves a second, third
and fourth chance, because somepeople just don't want to change
.
I mean I'm a true believer thatyou can lead a horse to water,
(38:15):
but you can't make them drink it.
So I have learned the hard wayand I'm sure a lot of your
viewers too, is that I alwaysthought that Ross hit rock
bottom.
He has yet to hit rock bottom.
Speaker 2 (38:28):
There's always a trap door.
You can always go lower right?
Speaker 1 (38:31):
Yep, absolutely.
That is something that we talkabout all the time.
Speaker 2 (38:33):
Specific to the trauma.
That is kind of you know it's,I mean.
But someone told me once andhis name is white mullet X is
very wise man.
I don't know if you guys knowwhite mullet X.
He's been involved drug courtfor years and uh, he said, if
you don't deal with your pain,just transfer it to everybody
else.
You know, at one point in mylife I was like a sprinkler of
pain, just spraying everythingthat was around me, people that
(38:55):
were closest to me, and, uh,cause trauma for a lot of people
, especially specifically myparents and my, my sisters, okay
, especially my younger sister.
I try I don't like to talkabout my younger sister, cause I
get very emotional.
Tommy seen me cry really hard acouple of times talking about
her.
Um, she's doing fine now.
She's actually a master's insocial work and she's helping
people in Northwestern hospitaltoday.
(39:15):
Um, so something positive cameout of all my crap.
But, um, you know, they wentthrough a lot of things they
didn't ask for, you know, andone of the things we were
talking about, they found meoverdosed multiple times.
You know she was a highschooler.
She had to hold my head up inthe back of, of, of, of of my
dad's car one time, while I wasblue, while she's trying to help
me breathe, Um, and we had topull over so the paramedics
(39:36):
could, could pull me out andNarcan me, um, but she was
watching me die in her arms.
A young, a young girl, probablyhigh school age, and, um, you
know just also what my motherwent through.
My father, uh, just always,always expecting that call.
You know, my mother would tellme that when I was home she
wouldn't sleep at night morethan an hour, cause she'd wake
up every night and she'd come tomy room and she'd put her hand
(39:57):
on my back to make sure I wasstill breathing, and then she'd
go back to bed for a little bitand she'd wake up in a panic and
come into my room and and andyou know just what that was like
for her, and then also both ofyou, what you experienced, as
you know, family members and andthen how you've dealt with that
sense.
You know, because there's a lotof people out there that are
traumatized, and we were talkingabout too that the caregivers,
(40:18):
mothers in particular, right,have a special bond with their
children, and you experience thetrauma and you keep going
because you got other kids andyou got grandkids and you have
to be the strong one.
But it's okay not to be thestrong one.
It's okay to say I have traumaand deal with it.
So if you guys both want tospeak on that, I mean we'd be
grateful to hear that.
Speaker 4 (40:38):
You know, sitting here next to you, I just feel
really guilty sometimes, becausethere's many times that I wish
Ross died.
Speaker 3 (40:46):
Well, and I've also talked to other parents who have
experienced the life ofaddiction Like my.
My son's struggle was a fewshort months.
My son's struggle was a fewshort months, so I didn't have,
and I found myself saying Godtook him from me.
(41:07):
But I look at that as ablessing because I couldn't
survive the years and years andyears of the trauma with my son
alive but not being not living.
Speaker 1 (41:22):
I guess Nate and I were just talking about that
last week.
So don't feel, don't feel that.
Speaker 3 (41:28):
Because my heart goes out to you because of your
current situation.
You know your son is very muchalive and mine is not, but it
doesn't mean that our traumaisn't equally as traumatic.
You know it's terrible.
Speaker 4 (41:44):
It is.
I mean, when you said thatabout your mom, I remember many
times going to Ross and just youknow, are you breathing?
You know, and I do, I feel so.
You know, as a suicideprevention specialist for the
state, you know I'm on manysuicide scenes, you know, and
you know why couldn't that behim?
(42:06):
You know.
So at least I could have putclosure, you know, at least his
daughters could put closure.
They could move on and not haveto go through life being
ashamed of their dad.
I felt really bad for mygranddaughter, audrina, a couple
weeks ago when somebody askedher what her dad does and she
(42:31):
didn't even answer.
And I said to her later I said,mama, why didn't you tell them
what she goes?
Mama, what would I tell them?
He's a drug user, he's a drugpusher.
So you know, it's just.
I don't know, it's just.
(42:51):
I'm just so mad at him.
I'm just so mad at him.
I'm just so mad at him becauseI, he had the.
He had a great life.
You know too much of a greatlife honestly.
I mean I, he had the.
He had a great life.
You know too much of a greatlife honestly.
I mean he was the Amelia Marcosof skateboards.
You know he had moreskateboards than anybody, than
anybody who even goes toskateboard park.
You know, I always felt that Ihad to, you know, make up for
(43:16):
his dad not being there for him.
You know.
You know he was a great student.
He always wanted to be anarchitect.
He always wanted to build thefastest and growing fastest, the
fastest roller coaster at cedarpoint, because we always went
there for family vacations yearafter year and he, oh, and I got
him those connect things and hewould make those every time.
(43:38):
And you know, and it's just,it's just to me, I just, I'm
just so mad at him right now.
I'm just so, so mad at him.
Speaker 3 (43:46):
I'm more mad at the drug, because in all the
families that I've met in this,it's almost been four years
since I met with you guys thefirst time and all these kids
were amazing.
All these kids have brightfutures and goals and plans and
kids that they leave behind, andyou know I've not met a mom yet
(44:09):
that has said my child, youknow, deserve this, or you know
we all have great things to sayabout our kids and in terms of
the trauma, you know that thisis for me as as just
experiencing the loss of a child, the trauma is very similar to
probably what your parents havefelt, because when I got that
(44:31):
call every call thereafter Iassociate it with something bad
has happened.
Speaker 2 (44:38):
I didn't even think of that, wow.
Speaker 3 (44:39):
Even when I pick up the phone, I have to listen to
the background noise of thatcall because, depending like, if
I hear and there's been peoplethat are laughing, but to me it
sounds like crying I'm instantlyespecially when it's my
daughter or when it's one of mygrandkids I'm ready to put my
shoes on and have my.
(44:59):
I'm out the door.
Speaker 2 (45:00):
You're in fight or flight.
I'm in fight or flight becausesomething's wrong.
Speaker 3 (45:03):
Some.
The only reason somebody iscalling me is because they need
me.
And somebody has died and it'staken me again.
We're almost four years into itand I still and my daughter has
made the comment like, whycan't you just answer the phone
Like normal people?
I'm like, I don't know as muchas I want to, I'm afraid.
Speaker 2 (45:23):
Trauma changes us.
Speaker 3 (45:24):
It really does.
It really does.
And I'll never do CPR on a liveperson, ever again.
Never expected I do it on myown child, but that it's taken
that away from me.
So it's more.
You know I'm I'm a rescuer andas much as I would want to run
to help, I would have to turn ablind eye because it would take
me back into the throes ofsomeone is losing a child,
(45:47):
somebody is dying, and evenagain the guilt of did I do CPR
right?
Did I follow protocol?
And so the trauma is neverending.
The trauma is never ending andthe work that I do with Java and
(46:08):
in the community has its ownspecial healing, which is why
I'll continue to help these moms.
I reached out to a mom todaylike let's do coffee, let's do
lunch, let's do something,because I know not everyone can
be in the front lines, noteveryone can talk in front of
the microphone, talk publiclyabout their pain, and others can
, and there's been some peoplethat I've met that I never
(46:28):
thought I would be able to seethem rise up.
And when I witness a family gofrom the very worst to, I see
them speaking, I see themoutwardly helping other families
.
And that's the most beautifulthing to me, because I know I'm
not going to take credit for anyof that, but I played a small
part in reminding them thatyou're still there's, you're
(46:52):
still a fighter.
So let's direct your anger,let's direct your pain on
something that you can bringchange, like you have a voice,
and let's put action to that.
Speaker 1 (47:02):
Powerful.
Yeah, and that's why Nate and Iwanted to have both of you on
the show, because you both are.
Like you just said.
Not everybody can or is willingto stand up and talk in front
of a microphone and share theirstory and share their truth like
you guys have done today.
So we're both very grateful forwhat you're doing in the
community.
You guys are both making a hugepositive impact.
So, thank you again.
Speaker 4 (47:23):
We've got about a minute left or so.
Thank you both for yourleadership.
Speaker 1 (47:27):
Is there anything else that you guys want to add?
Just before we end it?
Speaker 4 (47:29):
I would really like to get a feel if I'd like to
start a support group forcaregivers or family members who
are left behind, to care forthe grandkids.
Speaker 2 (47:43):
I think that's a great idea.
Speaker 4 (47:44):
I think that we're more, our voices are heard when
we're unified Absolutely andgiven a testimony, because what
I experienced, what youexperienced and what somebody
else experienced is totallydifferent.
Speaker 2 (47:58):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (47:59):
And I'm very.
I have a village, my parents, Ihave many siblings and cousins
and stuff that are willing tostep up, but I also know there
are people who have nobody.
Speaker 2 (48:12):
Absolutely.
Speaker 4 (48:13):
And I think that we need to come together and be
unified and we need to have ourvoices heard.
Come together and be unifiedand we need to have our voices
heard because if we're onlygoing to get to the bottom of
this epidemic, we can't justdeal, we can't just meet the
needs of the addict no we needto meet the needs of those who
are left behind because, as yousaid earlier nate, it is a
(48:34):
vicious cycle yeah, it is.
And we need to.
We need to have upstreaminitiatives so that we're not
looking at things andapproaching things downstream.
Speaker 2 (48:47):
Yeah, yep, I think we can continue here in a minute.
If you want to catch the restof the podcast, it'll be on
Facebook and on all the otherpodcast platforms, but with that
we're going to wrap up thisepisode for TV.
Speaker 1 (49:00):
Yeah, all right.
Thank you, guys for tuning in.
We'll see you next time, thankyou.
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