March 6, 2024 • 40 mins
Send us a Text Message with what batty adventures you’ve been up to this summer!
S5E55 Sat in the entrance to a cave in Wales, hidden amongst temperate rainforest, Richard Crompton gives you his insight into the best way to go about getting your bat licence. Richard has been training ecologists for many years now with around 400 people coming to his courses over the years. In this episode you'll hear about the different bodies that give licences, the different levels of licences and what they allow you to do, which one you should aim for as a consultant ecologist and the sort of activities that are most useful. We also hear about Richard's journey into bat conservation and how he nearly took a job at the Bat Conservation Trust, before turning it down!
- Find Richard on twitter, Instagram and LinkedIn
- Richard's Ecology on Demand website
- Training courses from the Bat Conservation Trust
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Steve Roe (00:07):
Hello and welcome to BatChat, the podcast from the
Bat Conservation Trust, wherewe're taking you out into the
field to discover the world ofbat conservation.
Yes, hello, welcome back, folks,you're listening to BatChat,
which is for anyone with aninterest in the secret of
(00:27):
mammals filling our skies atnight. I'm Steve Roe
professionally, I'm anecologist. And in my spare time,
as well as doing this podcast,I'm a trustee for the Bat
Conservation Trust. This is thefinal episode of Series five,
but don't panic. We have somenews on that for you later in
the show. This week, I'm takingyou to a Welsh woodland to meet
Richard Crompton. Over the yearsI've had countless people asked
(00:49):
me how to go about getting a batlicence. And so I thought who
better to guide you through theprocess than someone who has
trained nearly 400 people fortheir bat licence? So I don't
think anybody could accuse me ofnot putting effort in to get
these episodes. I was up at fourthis morning to get over to
South Wales to meet our guesttoday, who is very well known in
(01:10):
the back worlds. And withRichard Crompton, which is a
name familiar to lots of peoplein the bat world, Richard do you
want to, describe where we are,first of all, in terms of Wales.
Richard Crompton (01:20):
Sure, yeah.
Well, thanks for coming out thisway, Steve? Yeah, we're actually
just outside of Bridgend, justoff the M4 you can possibly just
hear the the hum of vehicles inthe distance. And this is a
natural cave that we've justcome to look at today. And we've
just counted 48 lesser horseshoebats in here, which is a little
bit down on last year, but it'sit's a cave that is subject to
quite a lot of disturbance. Sobut we promise you some
(01:42):
horseshoe bats, so it has to bedone. Yeah,
Steve Roe (01:46):
we're very well delivered. And we're in
predominantly Ash woodland andit's quite steep. We're just
sheltering in the entrance ofthe cave, because it's just
starting to drizzle a littlebit. So, Richard, how
did you get into that? And howlong have you been doing that
work?
Unknown (02:00):
My journey started. I was volunteering with a National
Trust done and park in Cheshire,just on the Cheshire Manchester
border, actually Duke ofEdinburgh Award it was, but it
was very much. i The careerwise, I wanted to be a kind of
park Warden that was acountryside Ranger, that that
sort of thing. That was what Iwas very much about and age 15,
(02:22):
I think it was I went on aboutwalk that was run by one of the
local back groups. And it wasjust kind of wow, this is, this
is amazing, actually. And atthat point, basically, as a
volunteer Warden, I went on alot of the guided walks and
things and they were good, youknow, they were all good. But
for some reason, this one justwas, wow. Okay, this is really
special. Also, it confirmed whatI'd always suspected, which is I
(02:45):
could hear a lot of the bats. Socertainly at that age, 1516
years of age, I could, you know,hear the knock jaws and not the
pipistrel feeding calls andsocial calls and things like
that. But actually, these peopleare actually able to tell me
what I was hearing, which isvery exciting. And this clearly
enthused me a lot, I was quitenerdy as a teenager and went off
(03:06):
and built myself one of thosekit magenta back detectors to
get the physics teacher atschool to help me finish it off,
because I've done somethingwrong. And so I went back the
following year, and they werekind of all this kids keen sort
of thing. So that was that wasreally nice. But I remember
having a conversation with thepark manager about it and and
saying, I think I think therewas a different way of
(03:28):
delivering this, I think it canbe, we've got a very sort of
Cosmopolitan population closeto, you know, got Manchester,
Liverpool, for a small partsmall deer park an awful lot of
people. And so I think Isuggested there was perhaps a
different way of delivering it,and we could reach out promote
it better. I think I justliterally got this huge
excitable bug about it, youknow? And he said, Okay, what
(03:52):
you can do next year that, so hekind of gave me a year. So I
think age 17, I gave my firstguided bat work. And that wasn't
so much me. I mean, you know,back back groups ebb and flow,
don't they? And I think I thinkthe, the, the group that was
doing it at that point, they Ithink they found it difficult
was outside of their area andthat sort of stuff. So I think
(04:12):
they were quite happy to letsomebody else do it. But they
still came along and helped,which was really good. And it
was both terrifying and amazingin equal measure. And so I did
that did that for a few years.
And we had no we didn't have acouple of 100 people on one of
them and relayed the talk withwalkie talkies and things like
silly to be honest, looking backit was it was ridiculous. But
what what an amazing start, andthen I went to Aberystwyth
(04:34):
University and studiedcountryside management and my
lecturers sort of said, Don't dobats, you got a lot of knowledge
about bats try and do somethingdifferent. But I just knew that
the only way I would reallymanage my dissertation was to do
on bats. I knew I'd actually getit done if I did that. So I
spent a whole summer doing doingsurveys looking primarily at the
(04:55):
weather and the and the impacton bat activity. At that
property that national trustproperty and another one so so
Country Park, very close toManchester Airport. And in doing
so I was I was doing I think Idid 444 nights a week and two
Don's a week throughout thewhole summer, and I'd recently
been on a workshop in the LakeDistrict with Tony Hutson.
(05:20):
Tomic, how it took me Tomica itgave me a lift there. Before I
even really knew him. I rang upthis guy called Tom. And he
said, I can pick you up and giveyou a lift because I didn't have
a car. And there was some of theI think Dutch bat workers. I
don't really remember,unfortunately, I wish I did,
because I'd like to thank them.
(05:41):
teaching us about backtracking.
Yeah. Which is something we'vealmost grown out of these days.
But we've basically spent thistime running around the Lake
District on this course, findingbat roosts backtracking to bat
roosts and it was very athleticand very exhausting. But I
employed the same technique andfound a lot of roosting trees,
particularly at Dunham Park. AndI think it was like 4748 roofs
(06:03):
or something. And I didn'treally understand that this
might have been significant atthe time, but when I wrote in
Tony Mitchell Jones that Englishnature at the time, and he said,
we've only actually got 56records of tree roots in England
at the moment, this is amassive, you know, this is this
is really significant. So Isuppose it got noticed without
(06:26):
really meaning to I mean, it wasit was, it was it was quite
naive, really, but that thatthat's and then they said costs,
enthuses you even more sort ofthing. Yeah. And what a lot of
people don't know is that as Igraduated 1997 I actually
applied for a job with thatConservation Trust as a
Conservation Officer. and turnedit down. For many in various
(06:47):
reasons. It was the right thingfor me at the time, I think,
having lived in rural West Walesfor three years and utterly
adored it. I mean, just totallyloved every aspect of it. I
think the juxtaposition of thengoing to London was going to be
too much for me, I think thatactually looking back was was
(07:07):
probably the main main deciderfor me. So I turned them down.
But yeah, I remember going to aWelsh bat conference and David
Woolley, who I think at the timewas treasurer of BCT, who looks
a bit like Captain Birdseye. Andhe's quite an austere character,
I think, I think I suspected Ithink he was merchant navy or
(07:30):
something like that at somepoint in his in his career, but
I didn't know him. And he wassat in the library of one of the
one of the Welsh field studycentres or Hilton or somewhere
like that. I don't rememberexactly which one. And I
remember going into this room tokind of check in for the
conference. And it was just himin there, sat behind this
massive leather top desk, andit's suddenly felt like some
(07:53):
curious kind of interview. Andhe said to me, Oh, so you're
Richard Crumped. And I thought,What have I done? And he leant
over the desk, stood up andentered the desk and shook my
hand. And he said, I thinkyou've made a very sensible
decision. I said, well done. Hesaid, That can't have been easy.
And I thought, Oh, what a niceman and, and actually enjoyed
(08:14):
working with him on and off formany years and seen him
relatively recently as well.
He's an old man now, but it wasnice, nice to see him because
these little moments, you know,really important along the way,
so and then I sort of stumbledinto doing some automaton
(08:36):
mechanics finished off my, mylicence to training at the time,
which was, which was great, butI'd had to travel a lot. I found
that that time getting trainedin the UK difficult. It seemed
to be I don't know if it's aclosed shop, or just that I
wasn't wasn't known to the rightpeople and living so far away,
(08:58):
it's difficult to makeconnections with the right
people. I mean, I still used towrite to people so this was
before you know, email was waswas relatively new. Makes me
sound ancient. And, yeah, soI've actually chosen to go
abroad, been to Slovakia and NewYorker and done some trips just
(09:21):
to try and particularly engagewith some of the rarest species,
because I didn't have anyconnections in southern England,
where most of the rare specieswere, and I felt it was really
important to have this knowledgeand awareness. And so you know,
I call shoebox great dealingwith those, you know, that's,
that's comfortable, no problem.
Finding out about the widerrange of species and the stuff
(09:41):
that you encounter occasionally,but just becoming more familiar
seemed really important. So ittook me basically 10 years, I
think, before I'd handled 10species of bats. This, to me was
ludicrous. Because I was alsodoing that work commercially.
eat again. In that part of theworld, there was a shortage.
(10:01):
There were many people doingthat there were many people
doing consultancy anyway. Imean, this is in the days when
used to go with three differentbat detectors held on the
clipboard with a elastic bandstuned to different frequencies
to do surveys on the tree numberone survey 1998. That's what we
did. It works, you know, we gotgot some good results from it,
(10:21):
really. But it was it was a verydifferent approach to what we do
now. And I think to cut a longstory short, I was at a
conference and chatting withSandy Salar about this. Some
years later, in fact, and and wewere just sort of saying, Why is
it? Why is it why have peoplestill finding it so difficult to
get trained, particularly as bythis point, there was a there
(10:45):
was a growing need forcommercial, commercially
trained, and commerciallypractising ecologists. And so
she said, Well, we better dosomething about it. And anybody
who knows Sunday will know thatshe makes things happen. And I
think a week later we'd met upin think, hey, on why, for
lunch, and we basically designedthat licenced training course,
(11:09):
over a sort of extended lunchabout three hours. And we'd
mulled over what we thoughtwould work. And we'd both been
trading people, you know, forsome time, and we've also got an
idea what work but but moving itinto sort, of course format was
was fairly new territory. And Ithink we there was certainly
some resistance in some quartersabout that, you know, perhaps
(11:32):
rightly so. Because it was a newapproach. And I think the onus
really was on us to prove thatwe could deliver good trainees
because of it, you know, and Ithink that actually, that
delivers us to a point, youknow, now some 14 years later,
where
Richard Crompton (11:51):
most people now trained by portfolio, it's
not so much a journey with asingle trainer anymore. And
that's not to say anythingagainst any particular trainer.
But just that with, by by goingout and working with and meeting
other people, you can just get amuch wider a wider range of
experience and you pick up thebits you like and pick up the
(12:12):
bits you don't you don't likeand make a decision about what
how you're going to to operate.
So I think, I think it makes alot more sense through and
Steve Roe (12:22):
and you've done a lot of training, as you've just said
that for people over the years,and you're still doing it. Now
why do you still put so muchtime and effort in given that
there's lots of other trainingcourses now and it is easy to
get into? Why do you still putthat time and effort into
people? Partly
Richard Crompton (12:35):
it can't help it. I love it. I love enthusing
about bats. But also I don'twant other people to find it.
It's hard to train as I did.
Yeah. And I don't think it needsto be. And also I I got, I've
got a bit of a campaign to tryand help people unlearn some of
(12:55):
the things that the theassumptions and beliefs that are
out there as well, and quitequite keen that we try and get
away from that. You know, fixingsome of the fixing some of the
problems
Steve Roe (13:10):
that I've spent, the majority of people who were
going to be listened to thisepisode are going to be looking
to get get on the ladder, sothey're supposed to get their
bat licence. Can you justdescribe how the licencing
process works? Because it can,especially now that we've
changed into the class licencingsystem, it can be really
confusing for people startingout a concept.
Richard Crompton (13:28):
It can there's there's there's no doubt that if
you if you look at the the rangeof options, particularly in
England, it does it does look abit daunting. It's perhaps worth
saying that England and sorryWales and Scotland have have
retained a more simple approachof licencing. And there's pros
and cons to each way of lookingat it to be honest, the English
(13:50):
class licencing system for mostpeople would look at a class
level one or class level twolicence. The main differences
there been that a class levelone doesn't permit handling and
doesn't permit disturbinghibernating bugs. And a level
two does and also introduces theuse of an endoscope as well,
(14:10):
which is obviously quiteimportant. So when this system
was launched, I mean, the firstthing is that I think it was
really good. I think the thelicencing system did need
looking at I remember Sandy andI wrote a letter because we
already trained probably closeto 100 people through that
(14:31):
licence training course at thatpoint. And we we we made some
observations on what was comingand there were some you know,
some things that we agreed withand some that we didn't and and
overall we congratulated NaturalEngland for for being bold
enough to to to look and see ifthere was a better way of doing
(14:51):
it because I think there wasthere was definitely room for
improvement. That yeah, thereare there are things that I'd
certainly like to see donedifferently. What I revise it
again, well, I think probably,you know, in, in the light of
things like earned recognitionwhich are coming along at the
moment, I think that's going tobe a new system by the looks of
it. I can, I can see somepositives to that. I mean,
(15:14):
again, there's there are someteething problems with that at
the moment. But all of thesethings are a process. And the
problem is, is that thecommunity is so diverse, that
everybody's needs are going tobe so very different, you know,
so, but but the, the essentialrequirements of the of the
training are always going to beexactly the same. And in very
(15:35):
simple terms, people just needto get out there and see bats.
And if there's, if there's onething I'd say it's, it's, it's
don't fall into the trap of justdoing hundreds and hundreds of
emergence and reentry surveys.
Because whilst you, you do learnsomething about bats, it's
important to remember that thelicence itself is about
(15:57):
licensable activities andemergence. And reentry surveys
aren't a licensable activity. Sowhenever you go to a roost,
particularly if you're, ifyou're assisting doing an
emergency or reentry survey,asked if you can be taken
inside. So actually make thatvisit count, even if that means
turning up, you know, a coupleof hours sooner or earlier in
the day, or whatever it happensto be, but make it count.
(16:17):
Because it's only by getting upclose and personal with bats
that you'll really learn thoseskills. And you don't even need
to have the person that's withyou train you. The the phrase I
use is get them to think outloud. So just talk about what
they're doing. Just give you asort of commentary, oh, I'm
looking here because this couldhappen. Or I'm I'm checking
behind here, because that's thesort of place where we might
(16:40):
find this species or thatspecies that that sort of thing.
And even little tips, like, howare they positioning the ladder
and stuff like that is prettyimportant. Because it's all part
of, of course, being safe, butalso looking competent, as well.
And if you can breathe inconfidently, get your ladders
upstairs in somebody's house,comfortably set it up, whilst
(17:03):
also having a conversation,whilst easily opening the loft
hatch, whatever mechanism itmight be, and reasonably
comfortably getting yourself upinto a loft. That householder or
that client is just going to beso much more comfortable
instantly, just because of yourbody language, because you
clearly know what you're doing.
(17:24):
You know, it might sound silly,because we haven't even started
thinking about the bats yet. Butit's all it's all very much part
of that process. And I thinkreally important.
Steve Roe (17:34):
You touched on it there. I mean, I get people's
about logs. And the second youlook at this, and they've got
dozens and dozens of transits,you think actually that's
filtered out what you'veactually got, and it's a lot
less, isn't it? So just take usthrough the types of licences
and then the different levels, Iguess in the class system. Okay,
Richard Crompton (17:48):
so this, the four levels, the full class
levels, 123, and four. So levelone is, as I mentioned, without
handling, and without disturbinghibernating bats, level two
allows those things, thehandling and hibernating bats
and the use of endoscopes aswell. So that's really the
target for most people.
Personally, I encourage peopleto avoid getting a level one
(18:14):
licence, there are a lot oflimitations to it, you can't
really use it in winter. I don'tlike the idea of people being in
a situation where they, youknow, if you go into a roost in
winter, and you've only got alevel one licence, and then you
have to get out, well, you'vecaused disturbance at that
point, probably. And also, it'sthat that sort of competency
(18:35):
thing as well. And there'sactually and this is, this is
one of the points I rememberinitially making to Natural
England, is that it's harder toidentify a bat, tucked tightly
into a crevice than it is aboutin the hand. Assuming you can
handle it comfortably. Andactually, most people don't
(18:55):
require that much training to beable to handle comfortably. So
it sort of feels the wrong wayaround. Because if you if if you
don't qualify for a level twolicence with handling, then how
are you going to identify aboutwhen you can only see its hind
foot or the you know, just justthe forearm and part of the year
(19:17):
or something like that. So it's,it's slightly the wrong way
around in that sense as well. SoI always encourage people to
focus on level two, don't sortof go for level one, and then
progress to level two, focus onlevel two, try and get all the
skills towards level two. Andthen if you need it, for
example, to get a job or forsomething like that, maybe take
the level one as it goes, butbut still keep going towards it.
(19:39):
And then level three and levelfour, many people would suggest
I feel like they're the wrongway around because level three
is actually adds the ability tocatch bats near miss net. And
level four enables people tocatch bats in a harp trap. And
the reason we suggest that mightbe the feels like the wrong way
around anyway, is because it'smy She's here to take a bite out
of her heart trap, because youjust scoop it out, then you do
(20:02):
from a miss net, where you haveto, obviously untangle it from
the, from the fibres. And thenet, which takes quite a lot
more, quite a lot more training.
I mean, I mean, in the order of,you know, several 100 bucks more
to be to be not not the can't becompetent if you've perhaps only
(20:22):
done 50 or 100. But it's alsothat ability to know that what
happens when you get one that'sreally tangled, because
suddenly, I mean, it happened tome on the course a couple of
years ago, we ended up with 12,or 14 nuptials internet at a
time. And that's because thefirst bat called and called in
all the others, and suddenlyyou've got bats, you've got more
(20:44):
bass than you'd ever really wantto deal with at that time. very
feisty, very vocal, very biteybats. And so you need to be able
to keep you cool, not beterrified of getting bitten.
Trust in the gloves, you know,and, and but but get those bats
out swiftly and also, you know,be able to make the decision,
(21:05):
right, we can close the top ofthis snap, so we don't catch any
more before you even start.
That's that sort of thing. Sothere's a lot more decisions
because you can potentiallycause a lot more harm with the
Miss net. So it should, it's nota technique that should be used
lightly.
Steve Roe (21:18):
So the one question I always get asked is, How long is
it going to take? And it's theanswer is how long is a piece of
string, but in your experience,you've trained a lot of people,
it on average, you know, howlong should people be expected
to put time and effort?
Richard Crompton (21:33):
Yeah, I probably get a couple of phone
calls most weeks from frompeople. And that's that's nearly
always one of the questions thatthey ask. And I always suggest
assuming they've got what shouldwe say some a background in
ecology, or environmentalscience or some familiarity at
least with with which we say thenatural world, they should be
looking at a couple of yearsminimum. And that's not to say
(21:57):
it can't be done faster, and itperfectly well can be done
faster. But I remember when Iwas trained, it was always very
much, making sure that youyou've done different activities
throughout the different partsof the year. So I think it's
very important to have seenthat, you know, the seasonal
changes in activity. I think Ithink to do it in one year,
you'd have to be very busy,you'd have to really dedicate
(22:19):
your life to it. And for mostpeople, I think that's that's,
that's probably unachievable orextremely, extremely challenging
these days. But it does dependwhat your background is, you
know, on what you've donepreviously. And some people
will, will quite quite oftentake three or four years, you
know, and it just depends howmuch how much you're willing to
(22:39):
travel, you know, my view is youneed to have had experience with
at least the range of species.
Because in England, you thestandard survey, class survey
licence covers you for all allof the 18 breeding species. So
you shouldn't have a licence ifyou've not got familiarity with
horseshoe bats, for example, youknow, now you perhaps you can be
forgiven for not having been upand close with vaccines or
(23:02):
something like that. But atleast you'll have the familiar
familiarity of most of theMyotis bats, and that sort of
thing, you know, perhaps youwon't have ever seen a great
long beard, but up close, but atleast you'll be very familiar
with the brown long eared bat.
And you'll have read lots ofgrey long eared bats. And I
(23:23):
mean, I remember by my firstgrade long read, but I saw, I
just knew it was different asever, I've never seen one before
I just I could just tell itwasn't a brown long eared bat.
So it's that sort of thing.
Really. It's having that thatdiversity of experience. And,
and like I said before, so it'sgreat to have worked with
different people, whetherthey're trainers or not. I mean,
I think I think the role of thetrainer is diminishing in this
(23:45):
world in a formal sense. I thinkit's really about just going in
getting good experiences. Andreally spending time thinking
about what you're getting fromthat experience. And that should
be reflected in the logbook aswell. And that's something else
that that that not everybody istold to do is to is to make that
(24:06):
logbook with a digital or paperit doesn't really matter these
days, from the very start andlog everything. And I get
trainees to put it to usually doit on Excel and do a tab for
different activities and liststhings like maybe conferences
and talks and emergent surveysand things like that, but then
(24:27):
have a tab on handling and thetab on Route visits and the tab
on hibernation visits and thatsort of thing. So you can be
absolutely explicit when youforward it to Natural England or
or whichever agency it is andshow them just how much you've
done of actual we call it backcontact time. Back contact time
we define as obviously seeing orhandling bats or bat signs
(24:50):
basically. And we try not toencourage too much emergence
survey hours in that becauseit's easy to rock up hundreds
and hundreds of emergence surveyhours without really gaining
that much valuable extraknowledge about the species.
Yeah.
Steve Roe (25:12):
And going back to the grayling gave my first grade on
get it, I've looked at it andhanded thought I know now that I
know that's great. I'll get eventhough, never seen him before.
So for that person who'slistening to this episode, who's
thinking, what is the firstthing I should be doing to get a
licence? What would you say? Isit? Is it? Is it making contact
with somebody? Or is it thelogbook or something else?
Richard Crompton (25:31):
Definitely, it's definitely, it's all about,
it's all about meeting the rightpeople to be honest. And if you
can do that through the localback groups, then that's
brilliant, because that's thebest the ideal place to start.
When when people want to come ona training course with me, the
first thing we usually do issend them away to go and get
more experience. So go and getyourself, you know, 100 hours or
(25:56):
something like that in the backbefore you even start to think
about it. And unright it down.
And don't go looking fortraining, I think is also a
really important point. Go andget involved. Because training,
in my experience arrivesorganically, when people once
people see that you're justinterested and want to be doing
(26:16):
it. Now, there's a whole, youknow, discussion, a whole
separate discussion to be hadabout whether if you're doing it
commercially, you should youshould volunteer. It's an
argument I revisit on manyoccasions, I find it difficult
to be balanced in thatsituation. Because I'm I mean,
obviously I make a career doingit. I specialise in bats, I do
(26:39):
really nothing else these days.
But also it's my my passion andmy hobby and my belief as well.
So I never had a problem withit. And I meet a lot of people
that don't have a problemputting in those that those
extra hours. Is there a casethat you should be able to do it
like an engineer might go tolearn to assess the stress
loading on a bridge, you know,on the course and come away with
(27:02):
a certificate at the end of it?
I don't know. I I find thatdifficult. Doesn't make it fair.
All right. But I make that adifficult jump to get to that
situation, really?
Steve Roe (27:13):
I mean, Richard can't see my phone because it's upside
down. But the next question Ihad, I'm going to read this
verbatim, it says something thatseems to be a contentious issue
is that to get any other protectspecies licence, you can get the
experience, mainly inside yourplace of work. With bats, the
onus is very much on new gatherexperience outside of work with
other people. You know, whyaren't that so different? And
is, and is it helps making itthat much harder for people to
(27:35):
get experience?
Richard Crompton (27:36):
I mean, I think there's a there's a risk
here that we make comparisons.
So it's, it's possible to go ona series of courses and get a
relatively small amount ofexperience and be a perfectly
competent, great crested newtsand a dormer server, for
example. And that's not tobelittle those or suggest that
they're in any way easy. Butthey are, that they're more
(27:58):
straightforward species in manyrespects, because they don't
they don't fly. And they're,they're a single species, there
isn't 20 of them to deal with. Imean, we're looking at least 20
Maybe 21 resident species is itI can't keep up with the numbers
anymore in the UK 18 breedingspecies anyway, that, that
you've got to have familiaritywith, because you might
(28:21):
encounter them. So at the veryleast, you need to have read
about them and and and have anunderstanding of what they look
like or what their ecology couldbe. And so you should we should,
perhaps the way we should frameit is that if you can get your
dormouse licence in perhaps 18months, maybe we need to
multiply that that that amountof hours by 18. You know, that
(28:42):
the perhaps that's a better wayof framing it. And I don't think
that exactly works. But perhapsthat sort of sets the
expectation and the level ofcomplexity different because if
you compare a greater horseshoebat to a whiskered bat, or a
grey long haired bat, to anocturnal bat, you know, the
differences are almost as big asthe differences in behaviour
(29:03):
between the great crested Newtand the dormouse, which is
ludicrous thing to say, but Imean, they really are very, very
different creatures whilst beingpart of the same group.
Steve Roe (29:14):
We've touched on whether the licenced instructor
is in need of an update withthings like earned recognition
coming out. So I'm going toleave that and I'm going to come
on to the next question I had,which was hand netting. The
thing that people get stuck upon is hand netting. And it seems
it's a skill that's done lessthese days for various reasons.
And it causes so many issueswith people trying to get that
(29:35):
training for their level twolicence is, you know, is
handlettered still relevant andhow do people find the people
who are doing that's that sideof things, how do you get around
it?
Richard Crompton (29:46):
It's a real challenge. And I do struggle as
well because also the thing is,is that there are only so many
accessible routes, you wouldonly ever want to trap them
search for a training exerciseonce a year, because you don't
want the bats to become that I'moverly disturbed COVID and the
extra restrictions of that, ofcourse, have have an implication
(30:06):
on that, because we're trying tominimise too much contact. So is
it necessary to catch a colonythat you've caught the previous
three years sort of thing. Andprobably we've added we don't
get into the, the challenges of,you know, minimising bat contact
and bat training, because Ithink that training has its
place. But also we do have to bemindful of the of the
requirements as well. I thinkI'm a big fan of hand netting, I
(30:32):
think it really has its place. Agood example is to say, how do
you know 100 bats coming out ofa roof is a breeding colony. Now
you can assume from the numbers,that you actually know that I
remember catching up a largepercentage of a big pipistrel
(30:53):
colony a few years ago, andsomething over 70% of them were
males, which is not what we wereexpecting, and then suddenly,
you have to start questioningWell, is this actually a
maternity colony? You know? Andokay, so there are the tips like
you might see or find babies.
Obviously, that's that's a,that's a bit of a clincher.
Perhaps even looking at socialcalls these days, that they'll
give you some tips as well. ButBut do we actually always know?
(31:15):
And simply by catching one ortwo, will often answer that
question very, very easily. Butit is a skill that's not used so
much. So it is hard. And it's acase of finding these roots that
are big enough to allowproportion to be caught. And
doing it on that sort of basis.
(31:39):
Because also there's it's it's agreat way of learning handling,
especially if you dopipistrelles, feisty, warm, you
know, freshly warmed up, youknow, newly emerged bats from a
nice warm house roost orsomething like that, and getting
them out from the bottom of thenet and getting them into the
bag and then getting themgetting the NetBackup quickly,
(32:00):
and really thinking about theprocess and being efficient,
whilst at the same time treatingthe bats front window with the
appropriate level of care isit's quite useful skill. But it
is hard I struggle I amstruggling to find enough roosts
to teach those various skills onsomething also that you can do
is when you get one is makes yougot two nets. So you can get one
(32:22):
that up, catch get the next roomimmediately somebody gets the
gets the net straight back up inhis place.
Steve Roe (32:28):
That's a good set.
And I guess it goes back to thatpoint you were making earlier if
it's about making thoseconnections, isn't it? Yeah,
yeah. And over the years, and asan estimate how many people
tracking you've trained?
Richard Crompton (32:41):
I think it's through through bat licence
training course and theassociated courses, we're
looking at about 350 380Something in that order. Because
some of some, some people havealready got a licence when they
come to us, that's been asurprise, some people weren't
satisfied with the training thatthey had, or they felt that in
hindsight, at some point,they've come to realise that
(33:02):
they were never really properlytrained, they came by signatures
for their licence to easily thatwas a revelation for me and you
know, 10 out of 10 to thosepeople for, you know, having the
presence of mind to addressthat. And some people are just
upgrading from one class oflicenced to another or perhaps
adding handling or, you know,some cases even trying to add on
(33:25):
the you know, the more advancedtechniques as well, or just
gaining experience towards them.
That's that's that's beenanother surprise over the years
is how many people come on thecourse really not expecting
anything from it. And justreally coming for some some more
experience on their journeytowards perhaps Perhaps wrapping
on this netting or somethinglike that.
Steve Roe (33:44):
Yeah. So out of the four different SN CEOs compare
them, and they said that some ofthe other ones are slightly more
hostile faces pragmatic, maybehow did that how did the file
compare?
Richard Crompton (33:55):
So most of my experiences with is within
England and Wales. And as itstands at the moment, it's
relatively straightforward toget a licence in in England, if
you send send your logbook fillin the form, if you meet the
grade, and you've got the twosignatures, you'll you'll get it
and you'll usually get it insideof a few days. The difference in
(34:19):
Wales is that they will reallyscrutinise the application,
they'll really look at thelogbook, and they'll make an
informed decision on whetherthey think you've got enough
experience. And actually, that'smy preference. I prefer and I'm
not just saying that because I'mbased in Wales, I actually
mostly trained people inEngland, not in Wales, but my
preferences is that there, thereshould be a level of scrutiny.
(34:42):
It's not good enough just torely on two referees, in my
opinion. The logbook isimportant, and it needs to be
good and it needs to bethorough. And I think I know
what I like to see in a logbooknow and it's good rounded set of
experience. It's good range ofspecies, it's dealing with all
(35:02):
the different types of roofs,you know, and it's not something
that you can do, you know, in ashort period of time, it needs
thought it's important.
Steve Roe (35:13):
So just moving away slightly from the licencing side
of thing. In the past, you'vebeen a PCT trustee and have
you've been very supportive ofthe organisation since then,
what is it about PCT that youlike?
Richard Crompton (35:26):
That, to me, the great thing about BCT is
that it makes bats approachableto a very wide audience. And I'm
not very good at this. And Ithink a lot of other bat
specialists and bat enthusiastsare perhaps not as good as this
as we ought to be. We're, Isuppose geeks, to some extent,
(35:48):
we like our gadgets, we like tosee our bats, you know, and a
lot of what we particularly geta kick out of doing is of is
often not that approachable, oraccessible to the general
public. And so there's nothingbetter than anybody Welcome back
work, and showing them theirfirst button, enabling them to
(36:09):
hear their first bout on aboutdetector. And that's about the
best thing in the worldactually. And, and if we can
start from that point of view,and I think that's something
that BCT have been very good atchampioning is also engaging
minority communities, peoplefrom different ethnicities, the
passing train, and, and onlypeople with disabilities and
(36:34):
things like that, just making itmore approachable to a wide
audience, you know, and I thinkthat I think that's brilliant.
And then supporting peoplethrough, you know, through
through their journeys throughtraining courses, and
conferences, and that kind ofthing, you know, supporting,
and, and enabling and what's theword, I'm looking for
facilitating research and thingslike that, you know, finding
(36:56):
gaps, thankless tasks, like thebat survey guidelines, you know,
as in a meeting on the fourthedition, the bat survey
guidelines, here we are, again,when was how many years? Is it
now is 2006? Was that the firstedition or something? And I
literally said at one point, ofcourse, if we could just train
(37:16):
people properly and haveconfidence in their training, we
actually wouldn't need any sortof vague guidelines. And I
thought, oh, there's a there's athere's a there's a good point.
And and I think everybody who'sproviding training or or
supporting people through their,their learning journey,
particularly towards a licenceshould really have that in mind.
Because that that sort ofanswers all the problems, you
(37:40):
know, if everybody's got areally good understanding of the
why it's all about the why, youknow, where are we going? And
what what do we need to achievewith this information? Rather
than just turning up and seeingif there's any bats there is
before that point, it'sunderstanding what what's that
going to mean? And working outabout, you know, the
significance of levels ofactivity and stuff like that. So
(38:02):
it's far from straightforward.
But it would it would make makefor a lot better survey reports
as well. I think,
Steve Roe (38:11):
Richard, that's been really insightful. Thank you
very much for coming on the show
Richard Crompton (38:14):
no problems.
Thank you very much.
Steve Roe (38:17):
Massive thanks to Richard for giving us that
insight. Despite the drizzle andfor giving me my annual fix of
lesser horseshoe bats. We've puta link in the show notes to
Rich's training website, as wellas his social media pages. And
that brings us to the end ofseries five of Bat Chats. I
really hope you've enjoyedlistening to all of our guests
this series, and the BatConservation stories being told,
as a show, it really helps usreach more people. If you leave
(38:39):
us a review about Bat Chat,either in your podcast app or on
social media, instructions ofhow to leave a review or in the
show notes. And you can tag uson social media using the
hashtag bounce chance. Recordingfor series six a Bat Chat is
already underway and will becoming later in the year. We're
looking for local bats andconservation stories to feature
on the podcast. So if you'reworking on a great bat project
(39:00):
or have a story about the batsin your area to share, please
drop us an email to the addressin the show notes. And you never
know. Bat Chat might be making avisit to you in the near future.
With the first signs of springon the way we hope you all have
a fantastic summer getting outthere and enjoy seeing bats in
the night sky. Bat Chat is anoriginal podcast from the Bat
Conservation Trust. The seriesproducer and editor was me Steve
(39:23):
Rowe. And I need to give a hugethanks to all of my guests this
series because without them thisshow would have happened. And
thanks as well to thecommunications team of BCT Joe
Nunez Mino and Andrei Carrera deCosta for their fabulous support
and promoting goes on socialmedia and linking to the
episodes on the obesitywebsites. And of course, without
you listening to us, therewouldn't be any point in
producing the show. So a hugethanks to you guys, our
(39:45):
listeners for your ongoingsupport of the show.
Hello and welcome to BatChat, the podcast from the
Bat Conservation Trust, wherewe're taking you out into the
field to discover the world ofbat conservation.
Yes, hello, welcome back, folks,you're listening to BatChat,
which is for anyone with aninterest in the secret of
(00:27):
mammals filling our skies atnight. I'm Steve Roe
professionally, I'm anecologist. And in my spare time,
as well as doing this podcast,I'm a trustee for the Bat
Conservation Trust. This is thefinal episode of Series five,
but don't panic. We have somenews on that for you later in
the show. This week, I'm takingyou to a Welsh woodland to meet
Richard Crompton. Over the yearsI've had countless people asked
(00:49):
me how to go about getting a batlicence. And so I thought who
better to guide you through theprocess than someone who has
trained nearly 400 people fortheir bat licence? So I don't
think anybody could accuse me ofnot putting effort in to get
these episodes. I was up at fourthis morning to get over to
South Wales to meet our guesttoday, who is very well known in
(01:10):
the back worlds. And withRichard Crompton, which is a
name familiar to lots of peoplein the bat world, Richard do you
want to, describe where we are,first of all, in terms of Wales.
Richard Crompton (01:20):
Sure, yeah.
Well, thanks for coming out thisway, Steve? Yeah, we're actually
just outside of Bridgend, justoff the M4 you can possibly just
hear the the hum of vehicles inthe distance. And this is a
natural cave that we've justcome to look at today. And we've
just counted 48 lesser horseshoebats in here, which is a little
bit down on last year, but it'sit's a cave that is subject to
quite a lot of disturbance. Sobut we promise you some
(01:42):
horseshoe bats, so it has to bedone. Yeah,
Steve Roe (01:46):
we're very well delivered. And we're in
predominantly Ash woodland andit's quite steep. We're just
sheltering in the entrance ofthe cave, because it's just
starting to drizzle a littlebit. So, Richard, how
did you get into that? And howlong have you been doing that
work?
Unknown (02:00):
My journey started. I was volunteering with a National
Trust done and park in Cheshire,just on the Cheshire Manchester
border, actually Duke ofEdinburgh Award it was, but it
was very much. i The careerwise, I wanted to be a kind of
park Warden that was acountryside Ranger, that that
sort of thing. That was what Iwas very much about and age 15,
(02:22):
I think it was I went on aboutwalk that was run by one of the
local back groups. And it wasjust kind of wow, this is, this
is amazing, actually. And atthat point, basically, as a
volunteer Warden, I went on alot of the guided walks and
things and they were good, youknow, they were all good. But
for some reason, this one justwas, wow. Okay, this is really
special. Also, it confirmed whatI'd always suspected, which is I
(02:45):
could hear a lot of the bats. Socertainly at that age, 1516
years of age, I could, you know,hear the knock jaws and not the
pipistrel feeding calls andsocial calls and things like
that. But actually, these peopleare actually able to tell me
what I was hearing, which isvery exciting. And this clearly
enthused me a lot, I was quitenerdy as a teenager and went off
(03:06):
and built myself one of thosekit magenta back detectors to
get the physics teacher atschool to help me finish it off,
because I've done somethingwrong. And so I went back the
following year, and they werekind of all this kids keen sort
of thing. So that was that wasreally nice. But I remember
having a conversation with thepark manager about it and and
saying, I think I think therewas a different way of
(03:28):
delivering this, I think it canbe, we've got a very sort of
Cosmopolitan population closeto, you know, got Manchester,
Liverpool, for a small partsmall deer park an awful lot of
people. And so I think Isuggested there was perhaps a
different way of delivering it,and we could reach out promote
it better. I think I justliterally got this huge
excitable bug about it, youknow? And he said, Okay, what
(03:52):
you can do next year that, so hekind of gave me a year. So I
think age 17, I gave my firstguided bat work. And that wasn't
so much me. I mean, you know,back back groups ebb and flow,
don't they? And I think I thinkthe, the, the group that was
doing it at that point, they Ithink they found it difficult
was outside of their area andthat sort of stuff. So I think
(04:12):
they were quite happy to letsomebody else do it. But they
still came along and helped,which was really good. And it
was both terrifying and amazingin equal measure. And so I did
that did that for a few years.
And we had no we didn't have acouple of 100 people on one of
them and relayed the talk withwalkie talkies and things like
silly to be honest, looking backit was it was ridiculous. But
what what an amazing start, andthen I went to Aberystwyth
(04:34):
University and studiedcountryside management and my
lecturers sort of said, Don't dobats, you got a lot of knowledge
about bats try and do somethingdifferent. But I just knew that
the only way I would reallymanage my dissertation was to do
on bats. I knew I'd actually getit done if I did that. So I
spent a whole summer doing doingsurveys looking primarily at the
(04:55):
weather and the and the impacton bat activity. At that
property that national trustproperty and another one so so
Country Park, very close toManchester Airport. And in doing
so I was I was doing I think Idid 444 nights a week and two
Don's a week throughout thewhole summer, and I'd recently
been on a workshop in the LakeDistrict with Tony Hutson.
(05:20):
Tomic, how it took me Tomica itgave me a lift there. Before I
even really knew him. I rang upthis guy called Tom. And he
said, I can pick you up and giveyou a lift because I didn't have
a car. And there was some of theI think Dutch bat workers. I
don't really remember,unfortunately, I wish I did,
because I'd like to thank them.
(05:41):
teaching us about backtracking.
Yeah. Which is something we'vealmost grown out of these days.
But we've basically spent thistime running around the Lake
District on this course, findingbat roosts backtracking to bat
roosts and it was very athleticand very exhausting. But I
employed the same technique andfound a lot of roosting trees,
particularly at Dunham Park. AndI think it was like 4748 roofs
(06:03):
or something. And I didn'treally understand that this
might have been significant atthe time, but when I wrote in
Tony Mitchell Jones that Englishnature at the time, and he said,
we've only actually got 56records of tree roots in England
at the moment, this is amassive, you know, this is this
is really significant. So Isuppose it got noticed without
(06:26):
really meaning to I mean, it wasit was, it was it was quite
naive, really, but that thatthat's and then they said costs,
enthuses you even more sort ofthing. Yeah. And what a lot of
people don't know is that as Igraduated 1997 I actually
applied for a job with thatConservation Trust as a
Conservation Officer. and turnedit down. For many in various
(06:47):
reasons. It was the right thingfor me at the time, I think,
having lived in rural West Walesfor three years and utterly
adored it. I mean, just totallyloved every aspect of it. I
think the juxtaposition of thengoing to London was going to be
too much for me, I think thatactually looking back was was
(07:07):
probably the main main deciderfor me. So I turned them down.
But yeah, I remember going to aWelsh bat conference and David
Woolley, who I think at the timewas treasurer of BCT, who looks
a bit like Captain Birdseye. Andhe's quite an austere character,
I think, I think I suspected Ithink he was merchant navy or
(07:30):
something like that at somepoint in his in his career, but
I didn't know him. And he wassat in the library of one of the
one of the Welsh field studycentres or Hilton or somewhere
like that. I don't rememberexactly which one. And I
remember going into this room tokind of check in for the
conference. And it was just himin there, sat behind this
massive leather top desk, andit's suddenly felt like some
(07:53):
curious kind of interview. Andhe said to me, Oh, so you're
Richard Crumped. And I thought,What have I done? And he leant
over the desk, stood up andentered the desk and shook my
hand. And he said, I thinkyou've made a very sensible
decision. I said, well done. Hesaid, That can't have been easy.
And I thought, Oh, what a niceman and, and actually enjoyed
(08:14):
working with him on and off formany years and seen him
relatively recently as well.
He's an old man now, but it wasnice, nice to see him because
these little moments, you know,really important along the way,
so and then I sort of stumbledinto doing some automaton
(08:36):
mechanics finished off my, mylicence to training at the time,
which was, which was great, butI'd had to travel a lot. I found
that that time getting trainedin the UK difficult. It seemed
to be I don't know if it's aclosed shop, or just that I
wasn't wasn't known to the rightpeople and living so far away,
(08:58):
it's difficult to makeconnections with the right
people. I mean, I still used towrite to people so this was
before you know, email was waswas relatively new. Makes me
sound ancient. And, yeah, soI've actually chosen to go
abroad, been to Slovakia and NewYorker and done some trips just
(09:21):
to try and particularly engagewith some of the rarest species,
because I didn't have anyconnections in southern England,
where most of the rare specieswere, and I felt it was really
important to have this knowledgeand awareness. And so you know,
I call shoebox great dealingwith those, you know, that's,
that's comfortable, no problem.
Finding out about the widerrange of species and the stuff
(09:41):
that you encounter occasionally,but just becoming more familiar
seemed really important. So ittook me basically 10 years, I
think, before I'd handled 10species of bats. This, to me was
ludicrous. Because I was alsodoing that work commercially.
eat again. In that part of theworld, there was a shortage.
(10:01):
There were many people doingthat there were many people
doing consultancy anyway. Imean, this is in the days when
used to go with three differentbat detectors held on the
clipboard with a elastic bandstuned to different frequencies
to do surveys on the tree numberone survey 1998. That's what we
did. It works, you know, we gotgot some good results from it,
(10:21):
really. But it was it was a verydifferent approach to what we do
now. And I think to cut a longstory short, I was at a
conference and chatting withSandy Salar about this. Some
years later, in fact, and and wewere just sort of saying, Why is
it? Why is it why have peoplestill finding it so difficult to
get trained, particularly as bythis point, there was a there
(10:45):
was a growing need forcommercial, commercially
trained, and commerciallypractising ecologists. And so
she said, Well, we better dosomething about it. And anybody
who knows Sunday will know thatshe makes things happen. And I
think a week later we'd met upin think, hey, on why, for
lunch, and we basically designedthat licenced training course,
(11:09):
over a sort of extended lunchabout three hours. And we'd
mulled over what we thoughtwould work. And we'd both been
trading people, you know, forsome time, and we've also got an
idea what work but but moving itinto sort, of course format was
was fairly new territory. And Ithink we there was certainly
some resistance in some quartersabout that, you know, perhaps
(11:32):
rightly so. Because it was a newapproach. And I think the onus
really was on us to prove thatwe could deliver good trainees
because of it, you know, and Ithink that actually, that
delivers us to a point, youknow, now some 14 years later,
where
Richard Crompton (11:51):
most people now trained by portfolio, it's
not so much a journey with asingle trainer anymore. And
that's not to say anythingagainst any particular trainer.
But just that with, by by goingout and working with and meeting
other people, you can just get amuch wider a wider range of
experience and you pick up thebits you like and pick up the
(12:12):
bits you don't you don't likeand make a decision about what
how you're going to to operate.
So I think, I think it makes alot more sense through and
Steve Roe (12:22):
and you've done a lot of training, as you've just said
that for people over the years,and you're still doing it. Now
why do you still put so muchtime and effort in given that
there's lots of other trainingcourses now and it is easy to
get into? Why do you still putthat time and effort into
people? Partly
Richard Crompton (12:35):
it can't help it. I love it. I love enthusing
about bats. But also I don'twant other people to find it.
It's hard to train as I did.
Yeah. And I don't think it needsto be. And also I I got, I've
got a bit of a campaign to tryand help people unlearn some of
(12:55):
the things that the theassumptions and beliefs that are
out there as well, and quitequite keen that we try and get
away from that. You know, fixingsome of the fixing some of the
problems
Steve Roe (13:10):
that I've spent, the majority of people who were
going to be listened to thisepisode are going to be looking
to get get on the ladder, sothey're supposed to get their
bat licence. Can you justdescribe how the licencing
process works? Because it can,especially now that we've
changed into the class licencingsystem, it can be really
confusing for people startingout a concept.
Richard Crompton (13:28):
It can there's there's there's no doubt that if
you if you look at the the rangeof options, particularly in
England, it does it does look abit daunting. It's perhaps worth
saying that England and sorryWales and Scotland have have
retained a more simple approachof licencing. And there's pros
and cons to each way of lookingat it to be honest, the English
(13:50):
class licencing system for mostpeople would look at a class
level one or class level twolicence. The main differences
there been that a class levelone doesn't permit handling and
doesn't permit disturbinghibernating bugs. And a level
two does and also introduces theuse of an endoscope as well,
(14:10):
which is obviously quiteimportant. So when this system
was launched, I mean, the firstthing is that I think it was
really good. I think the thelicencing system did need
looking at I remember Sandy andI wrote a letter because we
already trained probably closeto 100 people through that
(14:31):
licence training course at thatpoint. And we we we made some
observations on what was comingand there were some you know,
some things that we agreed withand some that we didn't and and
overall we congratulated NaturalEngland for for being bold
enough to to to look and see ifthere was a better way of doing
(14:51):
it because I think there wasthere was definitely room for
improvement. That yeah, thereare there are things that I'd
certainly like to see donedifferently. What I revise it
again, well, I think probably,you know, in, in the light of
things like earned recognitionwhich are coming along at the
moment, I think that's going tobe a new system by the looks of
it. I can, I can see somepositives to that. I mean,
(15:14):
again, there's there are someteething problems with that at
the moment. But all of thesethings are a process. And the
problem is, is that thecommunity is so diverse, that
everybody's needs are going tobe so very different, you know,
so, but but the, the essentialrequirements of the of the
training are always going to beexactly the same. And in very
(15:35):
simple terms, people just needto get out there and see bats.
And if there's, if there's onething I'd say it's, it's, it's
don't fall into the trap of justdoing hundreds and hundreds of
emergence and reentry surveys.
Because whilst you, you do learnsomething about bats, it's
important to remember that thelicence itself is about
(15:57):
licensable activities andemergence. And reentry surveys
aren't a licensable activity. Sowhenever you go to a roost,
particularly if you're, ifyou're assisting doing an
emergency or reentry survey,asked if you can be taken
inside. So actually make thatvisit count, even if that means
turning up, you know, a coupleof hours sooner or earlier in
the day, or whatever it happensto be, but make it count.
(16:17):
Because it's only by getting upclose and personal with bats
that you'll really learn thoseskills. And you don't even need
to have the person that's withyou train you. The the phrase I
use is get them to think outloud. So just talk about what
they're doing. Just give you asort of commentary, oh, I'm
looking here because this couldhappen. Or I'm I'm checking
behind here, because that's thesort of place where we might
(16:40):
find this species or thatspecies that that sort of thing.
And even little tips, like, howare they positioning the ladder
and stuff like that is prettyimportant. Because it's all part
of, of course, being safe, butalso looking competent, as well.
And if you can breathe inconfidently, get your ladders
upstairs in somebody's house,comfortably set it up, whilst
(17:03):
also having a conversation,whilst easily opening the loft
hatch, whatever mechanism itmight be, and reasonably
comfortably getting yourself upinto a loft. That householder or
that client is just going to beso much more comfortable
instantly, just because of yourbody language, because you
clearly know what you're doing.
(17:24):
You know, it might sound silly,because we haven't even started
thinking about the bats yet. Butit's all it's all very much part
of that process. And I thinkreally important.
Steve Roe (17:34):
You touched on it there. I mean, I get people's
about logs. And the second youlook at this, and they've got
dozens and dozens of transits,you think actually that's
filtered out what you'veactually got, and it's a lot
less, isn't it? So just take usthrough the types of licences
and then the different levels, Iguess in the class system. Okay,
Richard Crompton (17:48):
so this, the four levels, the full class
levels, 123, and four. So levelone is, as I mentioned, without
handling, and without disturbinghibernating bats, level two
allows those things, thehandling and hibernating bats
and the use of endoscopes aswell. So that's really the
target for most people.
Personally, I encourage peopleto avoid getting a level one
(18:14):
licence, there are a lot oflimitations to it, you can't
really use it in winter. I don'tlike the idea of people being in
a situation where they, youknow, if you go into a roost in
winter, and you've only got alevel one licence, and then you
have to get out, well, you'vecaused disturbance at that
point, probably. And also, it'sthat that sort of competency
(18:35):
thing as well. And there'sactually and this is, this is
one of the points I rememberinitially making to Natural
England, is that it's harder toidentify a bat, tucked tightly
into a crevice than it is aboutin the hand. Assuming you can
handle it comfortably. Andactually, most people don't
(18:55):
require that much training to beable to handle comfortably. So
it sort of feels the wrong wayaround. Because if you if if you
don't qualify for a level twolicence with handling, then how
are you going to identify aboutwhen you can only see its hind
foot or the you know, just justthe forearm and part of the year
(19:17):
or something like that. So it's,it's slightly the wrong way
around in that sense as well. SoI always encourage people to
focus on level two, don't sortof go for level one, and then
progress to level two, focus onlevel two, try and get all the
skills towards level two. Andthen if you need it, for
example, to get a job or forsomething like that, maybe take
the level one as it goes, butbut still keep going towards it.
(19:39):
And then level three and levelfour, many people would suggest
I feel like they're the wrongway around because level three
is actually adds the ability tocatch bats near miss net. And
level four enables people tocatch bats in a harp trap. And
the reason we suggest that mightbe the feels like the wrong way
around anyway, is because it'smy She's here to take a bite out
of her heart trap, because youjust scoop it out, then you do
(20:02):
from a miss net, where you haveto, obviously untangle it from
the, from the fibres. And thenet, which takes quite a lot
more, quite a lot more training.
I mean, I mean, in the order of,you know, several 100 bucks more
to be to be not not the can't becompetent if you've perhaps only
(20:22):
done 50 or 100. But it's alsothat ability to know that what
happens when you get one that'sreally tangled, because
suddenly, I mean, it happened tome on the course a couple of
years ago, we ended up with 12,or 14 nuptials internet at a
time. And that's because thefirst bat called and called in
all the others, and suddenlyyou've got bats, you've got more
(20:44):
bass than you'd ever really wantto deal with at that time. very
feisty, very vocal, very biteybats. And so you need to be able
to keep you cool, not beterrified of getting bitten.
Trust in the gloves, you know,and, and but but get those bats
out swiftly and also, you know,be able to make the decision,
(21:05):
right, we can close the top ofthis snap, so we don't catch any
more before you even start.
That's that sort of thing. Sothere's a lot more decisions
because you can potentiallycause a lot more harm with the
Miss net. So it should, it's nota technique that should be used
lightly.
Steve Roe (21:18):
So the one question I always get asked is, How long is
it going to take? And it's theanswer is how long is a piece of
string, but in your experience,you've trained a lot of people,
it on average, you know, howlong should people be expected
to put time and effort?
Richard Crompton (21:33):
Yeah, I probably get a couple of phone
calls most weeks from frompeople. And that's that's nearly
always one of the questions thatthey ask. And I always suggest
assuming they've got what shouldwe say some a background in
ecology, or environmentalscience or some familiarity at
least with with which we say thenatural world, they should be
looking at a couple of yearsminimum. And that's not to say
(21:57):
it can't be done faster, and itperfectly well can be done
faster. But I remember when Iwas trained, it was always very
much, making sure that youyou've done different activities
throughout the different partsof the year. So I think it's
very important to have seenthat, you know, the seasonal
changes in activity. I think Ithink to do it in one year,
you'd have to be very busy,you'd have to really dedicate
(22:19):
your life to it. And for mostpeople, I think that's that's,
that's probably unachievable orextremely, extremely challenging
these days. But it does dependwhat your background is, you
know, on what you've donepreviously. And some people
will, will quite quite oftentake three or four years, you
know, and it just depends howmuch how much you're willing to
(22:39):
travel, you know, my view is youneed to have had experience with
at least the range of species.
Because in England, you thestandard survey, class survey
licence covers you for all allof the 18 breeding species. So
you shouldn't have a licence ifyou've not got familiarity with
horseshoe bats, for example, youknow, now you perhaps you can be
forgiven for not having been upand close with vaccines or
(23:02):
something like that. But atleast you'll have the familiar
familiarity of most of theMyotis bats, and that sort of
thing, you know, perhaps youwon't have ever seen a great
long beard, but up close, but atleast you'll be very familiar
with the brown long eared bat.
And you'll have read lots ofgrey long eared bats. And I
(23:23):
mean, I remember by my firstgrade long read, but I saw, I
just knew it was different asever, I've never seen one before
I just I could just tell itwasn't a brown long eared bat.
So it's that sort of thing.
Really. It's having that thatdiversity of experience. And,
and like I said before, so it'sgreat to have worked with
different people, whetherthey're trainers or not. I mean,
I think I think the role of thetrainer is diminishing in this
(23:45):
world in a formal sense. I thinkit's really about just going in
getting good experiences. Andreally spending time thinking
about what you're getting fromthat experience. And that should
be reflected in the logbook aswell. And that's something else
that that that not everybody istold to do is to is to make that
(24:06):
logbook with a digital or paperit doesn't really matter these
days, from the very start andlog everything. And I get
trainees to put it to usually doit on Excel and do a tab for
different activities and liststhings like maybe conferences
and talks and emergent surveysand things like that, but then
(24:27):
have a tab on handling and thetab on Route visits and the tab
on hibernation visits and thatsort of thing. So you can be
absolutely explicit when youforward it to Natural England or
or whichever agency it is andshow them just how much you've
done of actual we call it backcontact time. Back contact time
we define as obviously seeing orhandling bats or bat signs
(24:50):
basically. And we try not toencourage too much emergence
survey hours in that becauseit's easy to rock up hundreds
and hundreds of emergence surveyhours without really gaining
that much valuable extraknowledge about the species.
Yeah.
Steve Roe (25:12):
And going back to the grayling gave my first grade on
get it, I've looked at it andhanded thought I know now that I
know that's great. I'll get eventhough, never seen him before.
So for that person who'slistening to this episode, who's
thinking, what is the firstthing I should be doing to get a
licence? What would you say? Isit? Is it? Is it making contact
with somebody? Or is it thelogbook or something else?
Richard Crompton (25:31):
Definitely, it's definitely, it's all about,
it's all about meeting the rightpeople to be honest. And if you
can do that through the localback groups, then that's
brilliant, because that's thebest the ideal place to start.
When when people want to come ona training course with me, the
first thing we usually do issend them away to go and get
more experience. So go and getyourself, you know, 100 hours or
(25:56):
something like that in the backbefore you even start to think
about it. And unright it down.
And don't go looking fortraining, I think is also a
really important point. Go andget involved. Because training,
in my experience arrivesorganically, when people once
people see that you're justinterested and want to be doing
(26:16):
it. Now, there's a whole, youknow, discussion, a whole
separate discussion to be hadabout whether if you're doing it
commercially, you should youshould volunteer. It's an
argument I revisit on manyoccasions, I find it difficult
to be balanced in thatsituation. Because I'm I mean,
obviously I make a career doingit. I specialise in bats, I do
(26:39):
really nothing else these days.
But also it's my my passion andmy hobby and my belief as well.
So I never had a problem withit. And I meet a lot of people
that don't have a problemputting in those that those
extra hours. Is there a casethat you should be able to do it
like an engineer might go tolearn to assess the stress
loading on a bridge, you know,on the course and come away with
(27:02):
a certificate at the end of it?
I don't know. I I find thatdifficult. Doesn't make it fair.
All right. But I make that adifficult jump to get to that
situation, really?
Steve Roe (27:13):
I mean, Richard can't see my phone because it's upside
down. But the next question Ihad, I'm going to read this
verbatim, it says something thatseems to be a contentious issue
is that to get any other protectspecies licence, you can get the
experience, mainly inside yourplace of work. With bats, the
onus is very much on new gatherexperience outside of work with
other people. You know, whyaren't that so different? And
is, and is it helps making itthat much harder for people to
(27:35):
get experience?
Richard Crompton (27:36):
I mean, I think there's a there's a risk
here that we make comparisons.
So it's, it's possible to go ona series of courses and get a
relatively small amount ofexperience and be a perfectly
competent, great crested newtsand a dormer server, for
example. And that's not tobelittle those or suggest that
they're in any way easy. Butthey are, that they're more
(27:58):
straightforward species in manyrespects, because they don't
they don't fly. And they're,they're a single species, there
isn't 20 of them to deal with. Imean, we're looking at least 20
Maybe 21 resident species is itI can't keep up with the numbers
anymore in the UK 18 breedingspecies anyway, that, that
you've got to have familiaritywith, because you might
(28:21):
encounter them. So at the veryleast, you need to have read
about them and and and have anunderstanding of what they look
like or what their ecology couldbe. And so you should we should,
perhaps the way we should frameit is that if you can get your
dormouse licence in perhaps 18months, maybe we need to
multiply that that that amountof hours by 18. You know, that
(28:42):
the perhaps that's a better wayof framing it. And I don't think
that exactly works. But perhapsthat sort of sets the
expectation and the level ofcomplexity different because if
you compare a greater horseshoebat to a whiskered bat, or a
grey long haired bat, to anocturnal bat, you know, the
differences are almost as big asthe differences in behaviour
(29:03):
between the great crested Newtand the dormouse, which is
ludicrous thing to say, but Imean, they really are very, very
different creatures whilst beingpart of the same group.
Steve Roe (29:14):
We've touched on whether the licenced instructor
is in need of an update withthings like earned recognition
coming out. So I'm going toleave that and I'm going to come
on to the next question I had,which was hand netting. The
thing that people get stuck upon is hand netting. And it seems
it's a skill that's done lessthese days for various reasons.
And it causes so many issueswith people trying to get that
(29:35):
training for their level twolicence is, you know, is
handlettered still relevant andhow do people find the people
who are doing that's that sideof things, how do you get around
it?
Richard Crompton (29:46):
It's a real challenge. And I do struggle as
well because also the thing is,is that there are only so many
accessible routes, you wouldonly ever want to trap them
search for a training exerciseonce a year, because you don't
want the bats to become that I'moverly disturbed COVID and the
extra restrictions of that, ofcourse, have have an implication
(30:06):
on that, because we're trying tominimise too much contact. So is
it necessary to catch a colonythat you've caught the previous
three years sort of thing. Andprobably we've added we don't
get into the, the challenges of,you know, minimising bat contact
and bat training, because Ithink that training has its
place. But also we do have to bemindful of the of the
requirements as well. I thinkI'm a big fan of hand netting, I
(30:32):
think it really has its place. Agood example is to say, how do
you know 100 bats coming out ofa roof is a breeding colony. Now
you can assume from the numbers,that you actually know that I
remember catching up a largepercentage of a big pipistrel
(30:53):
colony a few years ago, andsomething over 70% of them were
males, which is not what we wereexpecting, and then suddenly,
you have to start questioningWell, is this actually a
maternity colony? You know? Andokay, so there are the tips like
you might see or find babies.
Obviously, that's that's a,that's a bit of a clincher.
Perhaps even looking at socialcalls these days, that they'll
give you some tips as well. ButBut do we actually always know?
(31:15):
And simply by catching one ortwo, will often answer that
question very, very easily. Butit is a skill that's not used so
much. So it is hard. And it's acase of finding these roots that
are big enough to allowproportion to be caught. And
doing it on that sort of basis.
(31:39):
Because also there's it's it's agreat way of learning handling,
especially if you dopipistrelles, feisty, warm, you
know, freshly warmed up, youknow, newly emerged bats from a
nice warm house roost orsomething like that, and getting
them out from the bottom of thenet and getting them into the
bag and then getting themgetting the NetBackup quickly,
(32:00):
and really thinking about theprocess and being efficient,
whilst at the same time treatingthe bats front window with the
appropriate level of care isit's quite useful skill. But it
is hard I struggle I amstruggling to find enough roosts
to teach those various skills onsomething also that you can do
is when you get one is makes yougot two nets. So you can get one
(32:22):
that up, catch get the next roomimmediately somebody gets the
gets the net straight back up inhis place.
Steve Roe (32:28):
That's a good set.
And I guess it goes back to thatpoint you were making earlier if
it's about making thoseconnections, isn't it? Yeah,
yeah. And over the years, and asan estimate how many people
tracking you've trained?
Richard Crompton (32:41):
I think it's through through bat licence
training course and theassociated courses, we're
looking at about 350 380Something in that order. Because
some of some, some people havealready got a licence when they
come to us, that's been asurprise, some people weren't
satisfied with the training thatthey had, or they felt that in
hindsight, at some point,they've come to realise that
(33:02):
they were never really properlytrained, they came by signatures
for their licence to easily thatwas a revelation for me and you
know, 10 out of 10 to thosepeople for, you know, having the
presence of mind to addressthat. And some people are just
upgrading from one class oflicenced to another or perhaps
adding handling or, you know,some cases even trying to add on
(33:25):
the you know, the more advancedtechniques as well, or just
gaining experience towards them.
That's that's that's beenanother surprise over the years
is how many people come on thecourse really not expecting
anything from it. And justreally coming for some some more
experience on their journeytowards perhaps Perhaps wrapping
on this netting or somethinglike that.
Steve Roe (33:44):
Yeah. So out of the four different SN CEOs compare
them, and they said that some ofthe other ones are slightly more
hostile faces pragmatic, maybehow did that how did the file
compare?
Richard Crompton (33:55):
So most of my experiences with is within
England and Wales. And as itstands at the moment, it's
relatively straightforward toget a licence in in England, if
you send send your logbook fillin the form, if you meet the
grade, and you've got the twosignatures, you'll you'll get it
and you'll usually get it insideof a few days. The difference in
(34:19):
Wales is that they will reallyscrutinise the application,
they'll really look at thelogbook, and they'll make an
informed decision on whetherthey think you've got enough
experience. And actually, that'smy preference. I prefer and I'm
not just saying that because I'mbased in Wales, I actually
mostly trained people inEngland, not in Wales, but my
preferences is that there, thereshould be a level of scrutiny.
(34:42):
It's not good enough just torely on two referees, in my
opinion. The logbook isimportant, and it needs to be
good and it needs to bethorough. And I think I know
what I like to see in a logbooknow and it's good rounded set of
experience. It's good range ofspecies, it's dealing with all
(35:02):
the different types of roofs,you know, and it's not something
that you can do, you know, in ashort period of time, it needs
thought it's important.
Steve Roe (35:13):
So just moving away slightly from the licencing side
of thing. In the past, you'vebeen a PCT trustee and have
you've been very supportive ofthe organisation since then,
what is it about PCT that youlike?
Richard Crompton (35:26):
That, to me, the great thing about BCT is
that it makes bats approachableto a very wide audience. And I'm
not very good at this. And Ithink a lot of other bat
specialists and bat enthusiastsare perhaps not as good as this
as we ought to be. We're, Isuppose geeks, to some extent,
(35:48):
we like our gadgets, we like tosee our bats, you know, and a
lot of what we particularly geta kick out of doing is of is
often not that approachable, oraccessible to the general
public. And so there's nothingbetter than anybody Welcome back
work, and showing them theirfirst button, enabling them to
(36:09):
hear their first bout on aboutdetector. And that's about the
best thing in the worldactually. And, and if we can
start from that point of view,and I think that's something
that BCT have been very good atchampioning is also engaging
minority communities, peoplefrom different ethnicities, the
passing train, and, and onlypeople with disabilities and
(36:34):
things like that, just making itmore approachable to a wide
audience, you know, and I thinkthat I think that's brilliant.
And then supporting peoplethrough, you know, through
through their journeys throughtraining courses, and
conferences, and that kind ofthing, you know, supporting,
and, and enabling and what's theword, I'm looking for
facilitating research and thingslike that, you know, finding
(36:56):
gaps, thankless tasks, like thebat survey guidelines, you know,
as in a meeting on the fourthedition, the bat survey
guidelines, here we are, again,when was how many years? Is it
now is 2006? Was that the firstedition or something? And I
literally said at one point, ofcourse, if we could just train
(37:16):
people properly and haveconfidence in their training, we
actually wouldn't need any sortof vague guidelines. And I
thought, oh, there's a there's athere's a there's a good point.
And and I think everybody who'sproviding training or or
supporting people through their,their learning journey,
particularly towards a licenceshould really have that in mind.
Because that that sort ofanswers all the problems, you
(37:40):
know, if everybody's got areally good understanding of the
why it's all about the why, youknow, where are we going? And
what what do we need to achievewith this information? Rather
than just turning up and seeingif there's any bats there is
before that point, it'sunderstanding what what's that
going to mean? And working outabout, you know, the
significance of levels ofactivity and stuff like that. So
(38:02):
it's far from straightforward.
But it would it would make makefor a lot better survey reports
as well. I think,
Steve Roe (38:11):
Richard, that's been really insightful. Thank you
very much for coming on the show
Richard Crompton (38:14):
no problems.
Thank you very much.
Steve Roe (38:17):
Massive thanks to Richard for giving us that
insight. Despite the drizzle andfor giving me my annual fix of
lesser horseshoe bats. We've puta link in the show notes to
Rich's training website, as wellas his social media pages. And
that brings us to the end ofseries five of Bat Chats. I
really hope you've enjoyedlistening to all of our guests
this series, and the BatConservation stories being told,
as a show, it really helps usreach more people. If you leave
(38:39):
us a review about Bat Chat,either in your podcast app or on
social media, instructions ofhow to leave a review or in the
show notes. And you can tag uson social media using the
hashtag bounce chance. Recordingfor series six a Bat Chat is
already underway and will becoming later in the year. We're
looking for local bats andconservation stories to feature
on the podcast. So if you'reworking on a great bat project
(39:00):
or have a story about the batsin your area to share, please
drop us an email to the addressin the show notes. And you never
know. Bat Chat might be making avisit to you in the near future.
With the first signs of springon the way we hope you all have
a fantastic summer getting outthere and enjoy seeing bats in
the night sky. Bat Chat is anoriginal podcast from the Bat
Conservation Trust. The seriesproducer and editor was me Steve
(39:23):
Rowe. And I need to give a hugethanks to all of my guests this
series because without them thisshow would have happened. And
thanks as well to thecommunications team of BCT Joe
Nunez Mino and Andrei Carrera deCosta for their fabulous support
and promoting goes on socialmedia and linking to the
episodes on the obesitywebsites. And of course, without
you listening to us, therewouldn't be any point in
producing the show. So a hugethanks to you guys, our
(39:45):
listeners for your ongoingsupport of the show.
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