March 1, 2023 • 45 mins
Send us a Text Message with what batty adventures you’ve been up to this summer!
S4E43 As series four comes to a close, Steve sits down with a titan of bat conservation. Dr Robert (Bob) Stebbings is one of the original bat workers in the UK and in this episode we hear about some of the major bat conservation work undertaken by Bob over the last half century.
Make sure you follow the show so you get notified of our two bonus episodes which will go out before the next series. The first of those will be an interview with the team who made Wild Isles and you can watch the trailer for this upcoming landmark nature documentary here.
Night Winged was written by Helen Ball and you can find her on twitter and Instagram.
Get in touch with the show - comms@bats.org.uk - if you have a story to share, are doing a bat project or want to submit a piece of writing or poetry.
Please leave us a review or star rating if your podcast app allows it because it helps us to reach a wider audience so that we can spread the word about how great bats are. How to write a podcast review (and why you should).
Got a story to share with us? Please get in touch via comms@bats.org.uk
Bats are magical but misunderstood. At BCT our vision is a world rich in wildlife where bats and people thrive together. Action to protect & conserve bats is having a positive impact on bat populations in the UK. We would not be able to continue our work to protect bats & their habitats without your contribution so if you can please donate. We need your support now more than ever: www.bats.org.uk/donate Thank you!
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Steve Roe (00:07):
Hello, and welcome to BatChat from the Bat
Conservation Trust, the leadingcharity in the United Kingdom
solely devoted to theconservation of bats and the
landscapes on which they rely.
This podcast is for anyone wholoves bats. We bring you stories
straight to your headphones fromthe world of bat conservation,
and from the people out theredoing work that furthers our
understanding of these magicalcreatures. I'm Steve Roe;
(00:28):
professionally, I'm an ecologistand in my spare time, I'm a
trustee of the Bat ConservationTrust. You can join the
conversation online using thehashtag BatChat - that's all one
word. This week, we've a bumperepisode for you. And it's
actually our last in thiscurrent series. But don't panic.
We have some news on that foryou later in the show. This
week, we're sitting down withDr. Robert Stebbings. We heard
(00:51):
about Bob in the very firstepisode of BatChat from Shirley
Thompson, who mentioned he wasinvolved in the TV episode,
'bats need friends' at the endof the first ever national bat
year in the late 1980s. Bob nowlives in Northamptonshire, and
it was last summer when I methim at his house. After catching
up over coffee, we sat down inthe conservatory overlooking his
garden and I asked him how itall started.
Dr Bob Stebbings (01:17):
So we'll start from the beginning. I mean, you
were 12 when you becameinterested in bats. I was
exactly 10 years old when I wasfirst invited to join a
Cambridge University group thathad got interested in studying
bats at Bury St Edmunds,Suffolk, which is where I was
born and bred. And I was takenunderground on the second of
(01:41):
January 1952. And I was shownhow to identify the bats that
were in chalk mines near Bury StEdmunds. And I was then shown
how to ring bats on that firstvisit. And I was ringing bats
from the second of January 1952At the age of 10, at the age of
(02:02):
10 and two months! And the chapwho taught me was a chap called
Owen Gilbert, who was a soilscientist who worked for the
Nature Conservancy in Maplewoodin Cumbria. So he didn't often
visit Bury St Edmunds. So wecorresponded and telephoned each
(02:26):
other occasionally, and Icarried on going underground by
myself winter after winter,visiting the site and ringing
bats and recovering ringed onesand finding new ones, and so on
and so forth. And by 1957 Idiscovered that the activities
(02:50):
that well I didn't reallyrealise that at the time, but
this was subsequently, Irealised that what I was doing
was disturbing bats and causingthem to avoid being caught. And
so in 1957, we wrote a paperabout the results, and that was
(03:10):
published in the zoologicalJournal of the zoological
society. And basically, it saidthat the number of bats in any
hibernating location wasdetermined by the amount of
disturbance they had. Now, Iused to go about once a month,
so the winter so starting inSeptember, through to April, at
(03:33):
the same time, I was looking atresearch papers published in The
Netherlands particularly, werebad work, rigging bats that
started in the 1930s. And theyhad come by 1957, to the
conclusion that they too werecausing the decline of bats in
(03:54):
the places they were looking.
But I was also looking atcolonies of bats in areas which
had been written about in thepsychological literature over
the previous two centuries.
Everything from Gilbert White,talking about the noctue bats in
Hampshire, where he lived, andalso the noctule bats that lived
(04:17):
around the west side of Bury StEdmunds, which used to number
say, three or 400 noctules in aneyeful just flying above my
head, feeding on summer chafers,the smaller version of the
cockchafer over and over justclouds up them. Now by 1960 When
(04:41):
I left Bury St Edmunds to startmy official work my full time
work. Those bats havedisappeared all but I'd only see
a few. And I've been backseveral times over the last
40/50 years. And there are veryfew noctules flying anywhere.
I'm in the summer in that partof the country. So you're going
(05:03):
from a population that must havenumbered many hundreds, down to
close to zero now, in the samesort of period, I started work
at Hillsborough Research Stationin Dorset and which was 1884
Victorian house with hollowwalls and several different
sections to the roof. And withina short space of time, although
(05:27):
I was a botanist, supposedly, Iused to go into the roof spaces
at lunchtime, and I found nineBritish species of bats living
in that roof. So that was greylong-eared, brown long-eared,
Daubenton's occasionalwhiskered, very occasional
Natterer's, mouse-eared bat. Nowmouse-eared as you may realise,
(05:52):
was very rare at the best oftimes in Britain. What I did do,
though, I did discover insurveying big houses in the
purple, I did find where it hadbeen breeding for a number of
years, I found a huge pile ofdroppings in a big building,
which also had greaterhorseshoes as a nursery colony,
which was exterminated in 1953.
But I didn't discover it until1961. But because greater
(06:17):
horseshoes lived in the area,and I was aware that the numbers
had gone down substantially justby talking to local people. And
so then I got really interestedin working on the greater
horseshoe, not only in Dorset,but across Britain, and did
discover that the numbers havedeclined from say 150 to
(06:40):
200,000, down to less than15,000. The time I was doing
this work, I mean, this is sortof condensing 25 years work. And
pesticide poisoning, timbertreatment in buildings was one
of the principal causes. So moreand more, I was getting drawn
(07:03):
into looking after these batsthroughout Britain. And there
was a chap called Roger Ransome,who was working in
Gloucestershire, around Stroud,and his area sort of went down
into the Mendips, and morelaterally across to the Forest
(07:24):
of Dean, that sort of areas. Sohe worked on that colony from
the late 50s. Right through to,well he's still working! In the
case of Wales, the work was,well, a chap called Tom McOwat.
I met him on his honeymoon on aboat to Rum. And I was working
(07:47):
on the size clines inpipistrelle bats across the
whole of the UK. And I haddiscovered that there are bats
on Rum. So I went up there onthe 17th of June 1971, in order
to catch a sample of the colonyliving on rum, and on the boat
(08:09):
going over there, I justhappened to meet Tom McOwat and
his wife Rena, and he wasbasically an artist who had been
working for Cumbernauld councilas a sort of trainee illustrator
artist. And then shortlyafterwards, he moved to South
(08:31):
Wales to do an art course atCartmarthan art college. And
this was 1972/73, that sort ofperiod. And he kept writing to
me saying he was interested incaving, basically. And he kept
writing to me saying it foundgreater horseshoes hanging in
(08:54):
various places, mines, caves,just old ones and twos. And so
in 1975, we visited all thesesites and we started putting
rings on them, and the recoveredthem in different places. And
then, there was one day end of1975 October, there were two
(09:16):
botanists working at Stackpoleon behalf of the Nature
Conservancy, as it still was inthose days. And they said they
were staying in the stable blockat Stackpole. House as walls.
And they discovered a chap hewas killing bats coming out of
(09:41):
the roof of this house, or thestable block and one of the bats
they picked up and had a ring onit. That ring then was given to
the system regional officerwarden in the Nature Conservancy
chap called Stephen Evans. Amonth or more later, that ring
got to me. And I said Eureka.
(10:05):
And it turned out to be the mainbreeding site for the greater
horseshoe in southwest Wales. Isay main because subsequently,
we discovered lots of differentplaces. But it was then, through
lots of evidence that weinvestigated, we discovered that
must have been at least 15,000killed at the time in 1962. When
(10:30):
the building burnt down, due toa it was a dust fire, basically,
explosive fire.
And as a result of all that, wetalked with all the all the
locals who had lived there, andthey used to say, well, we you
still walk home and thewoodlands near there. And bats
were constantly bumping into us,you know, great horseshoes that
(10:55):
there was so thick in the air,you couldn't avoid being hit by
them. So we were started doing aseries of pub talks. Saturday
night, we'd set up a screen in apub, we went around to all the
local area. And I'd talk, youknow, in the pubs about bats
really wanting to get localpeople to come to a saying,
(11:17):
Well, we know where bats are andwhere they used to be and all
that. So we got a huge amount ofinformation like that. And it
was surprising how much creptout of the woodwork. And so
we've gradually built up a verybig picture of the whole of West
Wales and Tom McOwat has reallysort of brought it all to life
(11:37):
and managed to get the site'sprotected, but he's done a
tremendous amount of work on it.
So that was another episode,which is so important for the
bats of West Wales. I mean, itwasn't just the greater
horseshoe. When I was doingsurveys in west Wales, I came
across the first records forserotine bats. And then on one
(11:59):
of the courses I used to do atOrielton Field Study Centre, I
went up into the roof to showpeople what we look for in roofs
and how to survey for bats andso on so forth, one of the
regular courses that I used todo, and I said, 'Oh, that's
interesting, that bat up therein the roof, that's a Nathusius'
(12:20):
pipistrelle'. And that was thefirst Nathusius' for Wales. I
had found the first for Britainin 1969, in Dorset in the House
Research Station that I firststudied in. And in that
particular case, I happen to bewith the senior officer for the
research station. And I was justtaking him around to show him
(12:44):
all the different places, Ifound bats. And there was a rich
tile with a little tiny hole init. And I looked up and looked
in the hole with a torch,couldn't see your face or
anything. And I said, 'Oh,that's a bat that's new to
Britain'. Just as you do! Ittook us two days to actually,
(13:05):
well got it out of the hole. Andthen it took two days to really
confirm what it was. Because wedidn't have all the books and
things with us at the time.
Steve Roe (13:18):
I was going to say yeah, where do you go for that?
Sort of?
Dr Bob Stebbings (13:20):
Yeah, so we did measurements and all that.
So that got published in Nature,actually, the scientific journal
as a new record for Britain. AndI should say that when I first
started studying bats inBritain, the species list was
just 12. And now it's what17/18? Who knows? New ones turn
(13:43):
up! Yeah. So, um, so my lifereally has been principally
looking at the rare, endangeredspecies. The horseshoe work got
published in a number ofdifferent places. But during the
late 1960s, I was gettingincreasingly concerned that bats
(14:08):
were still being killedneedlessly. And the thing which
changed everything was Europeanconservation year, which was
1970. Now, before 1970, all thetelephone calls I used to get
were, I've got bats, how do Iget rid of them? Well, I did a
(14:29):
lot of broadcasting radio andtelevision through the 1960s.
And I did an intensive amountduring 1970 because all the
other species were beinghighlighted across Europe that
needed protection. And I jumpedon the bandwagon and said, What
about bats because nobody elsewas interested in bats across
Europe. After 1970 I used to gettelephone calls, then saying,
(14:55):
We've got bats. We know wemustn't kill them, but how can
we get rid of them? So the wholetone of telephone calls changed
in that one year. Now, LordSalisbury, who was a botanist,
he had got an act in parliamentthat was beginning to take
shape, which was to protectendangered species of plants,
(15:17):
wild plants. And a friend ofmine at the time who was
president of the mammal societyand of the Suffolk naturalist
society, Lord Cranbrook. I said,Look, we need to get bats
protected. Oh, can't do thatTheir Lordships won't like
having bats protected. What canwe narrow it down to because the
(15:38):
lordships like animals with bigeyes and nice cuddly things they
don't like the idea of. So wegradually worked it up the wild
creatures and wild plants act of1975 included the mouse eared
bat and the greater horseshoe.
And also that ringing bats,which were already shown was
(15:59):
harming bats throughdisturbance. We'll put marking
bats on it as well. AndCranbrook said, 'well they'll
probably accept that'. Sureenough, by the end of 1975, that
act was law. And so themouse-eared which was
effectively extinct anyway. Andthe greater horseshoe were
(16:21):
protected, as well as meaningthat anyone wanting to bring
bats had then to get a licence.
So I was employed by the NatureConservancy to organise the
ringing of bats and licencingand all that sort of thing. But
that wasn't good enough for me.
So after the 75 Act, we thenwere greatly encouraged in
(16:42):
Britain by a chap called JackCreighton, Lord Creighton, he
was Secretary of State forScotland. He really got
interested in bats, and he hadmuch more power in government
having been a minister. And wehad a number of meetings in
Parliament. I gave talks todifferent groups of MPs and
(17:07):
lordships in parliament over twoor three years. And eventually,
the wildlife and countryside act1981 was developed and passed.
And there was a huge amount ofanti Stebbings at the time in
the press, and even hit theWashington Post as being a
(17:29):
pariah of conservationistsstill, quite fun. really in some
respects, it didn't, didn'treally hurt. I was just annoyed.
Steve Roe (17:44):
What was it that sort of inspired you to get that
group set up? You know, what wasthe process of it? And how
enthusiastic were people toactually get those groups set
up? Because some of thosepre-date BCT, don't they?
Dr Bob Stebbings (17:57):
Oh, yes, yes, yes. Well, there was John
Goldsmith in Norwich, sort ofNorfolk back group, but one man.
He started Oh, he was going inthe 1960s. He died of course, a
couple of years ago. And then inthe 70s, Phil Richardson. So
(18:25):
suddenly, somebody who wasinterested in mammals as well as
bats, and sort of floated moretowards bats by sort of 1980
ish. So he had started early on.
The London bat group, they werequite early with Tony Hutson. So
but what I was concerned about,I mean, as I was working full
(18:51):
time on bats, it was if youlike, I had the time to be able
to develop these groups. And Ithought, Well, what we need is
county bat groups, you know, notjust the odd one, but all the
counties. And so I started doingcourses in different counties in
the early 1980s, just when theAct had come into place. So I'd
(19:15):
give talks to Council offices,which often included local
naturalist and people that thecouncil already knew. And then
individual counties came up witha bat group. And a lot of people
then came to the various coursesthat I was running in different
places around the country, mostnoticeably, Preston Montfort in
Shropshire, and the Alton FieldStudy Centre in west Wales, they
(19:40):
were always sort ofoversubscribed by people wanting
to go on the courses. And thenI'd give individual courses up
and down the country.
Steve Roe (19:52):
I mean, you mentioned some great names there. I mean,
when I was here, when I wasgetting into bats, we went, we'd
go on holiday to various placesto North Norfolk or Devon and
Cornwall. And we'd been in thebat group for a couple of years.
And we were going on a familyholiday to Norfolk. And we'd
said to some people in [thegroup] on the committee we're
going to Norfolk, have you gotany good places to go. And Pete
(20:14):
Bush said 'oh my trainer wasJohn Goldsmith, I'll give you
his email address, dropped Johnan email and got a reply
straightaway and said, Yeah, I'mnot here that week. But if you
phone this lady Sue Parsons,she's doing work at Paston Great
Barn'. Phoned Sue she was like,Yeah, I'm doing account next
week, you know, come in, comealong, here's where to go here's
a grid reference. And, you know,she was so enthusiastic took me
(20:36):
inside Paston Barn to see these40/50 barbastelles.
Dr Bob Stebbings (20:41):
Nice barn Paston but only if you've not
got to pay for the repair of theroof!
Steve Roe (20:46):
And it was just so nice to have people who were so
enthusiastic to get peopleinvolved in and enthused,
really. And I think thoseexperiences really did sort of
keep me going to do what I'mdoing now. What do you think are
going to be the challenges forbat conservation in the future?
Dr Bob Stebbings (21:02):
Well, again, the watering down and
amateurish-ness of NaturalEngland. The focus on species
conservation has dropped, whichin one sense is okay, if you're
maintaining habitats in the waythat they are recreating
(21:25):
habitats, real rewilding, ofcourse, is the in buzzword I
suppose. But when I was young,you know, I'm talking about
1950s. Particularly, you'd goout of an evening, and almost
wherever you were, there wouldbe clouds of bats flying around.
(21:45):
In the late 70s, I was able toshow through national surveys
that I started, which has beencontinued by BCT. I was able to
show huge declines happeningvery quickly, which was
principally due to climate, badweather at the wrong time, you
know, so the young of the yearcouldn't be fed by the mothers
(22:06):
because they couldn't get enoughfood to feed them. And then, of
course, it takes years for thenumbers to rebuild afterwards,
and they never do rebuildbecause by that time, habitats
have changed.
Steve Roe (22:21):
Now we'll come back to Bob's interview in a minute
or two, but one of our listenershas written a poem about bats.
Helen Ball from StaffordshireBat Group has actually appeared
in series two episode 20 when Ijoined her underground on the
search for hibernating bats, soif you've not heard that, do go
and listen to it after thisepisode. Helen's poem is
narrated by Morgan Brind, whorecently co-hosted the BCT batty
(22:41):
awards for talented achievement.
This is Night Winged.
Morgan Brind (22:45):
"We share this fleeting moment, as day and
night divide and colours dimand soften, awakening dulled
eyes. Elemental movementsebb at the periphery of my
(23:09):
sight, shape-shifting intodarkness, aware of shortening
light. As it passes fromshadow to shadow, dark against
darkening sky, its deafeningcalls of silence go unheard by
the passer-by. Images waneand flicker with every swoop
(23:31):
and dart and dive, skeins ofmovement pieced together,
falling through starlight.
If I gleaned you from theheavens, held you fast and
tight, would your mysteryevaporate, like your presence
in the night?"
Steve Roe (24:17):
That was Night Winged by Helen Ball. A huge thanks to
Helen for creating thatbeautiful piece. You can find
her online we've put the linksin the show notes. If you've got
a piece of writing or poetrythat you'd like to share with
us, drop us an email to theaddress in the show notes and
you never know. It might befeatured on a future episode.
Now back to Bob's interview.
What do you think we can do toinspire the next generation of
(24:40):
young bat workers? Because theyare the future, aren't they?
Dr Bob Stebbings (24:44):
Yes, well, quite so. The reason I dropped
out of bat work was because Ididn't have the energy anymore
and it takes a lot of energy tofight politicians and it's not
up to me. I'm old. And it's upto young people. It's it's the
(25:07):
their Earth now. And, okay,young people will make some
mistakes like we all did in thepast. But it's their world. And
they're the people who will beseeing changes now. And will
have to go forth and work withpoliticians, because it's still
politicians who are the key.
Steve Roe (25:29):
So this is going to be difficult question, given
you've done power work for thelast 70 years? What's been your
most notable or favourite memoryof working with that? Or a
particular bat species?
Dr Bob Stebbings (25:40):
Oh, golly.
Well, I shouldn't say this, I'msupposed to be a scientist.
I think they're just beautifulanimals, incredible animals. You
know, and they've given me aliving for heaven's sake, which,
(26:01):
well, can't be bad for me. Butno, I had a lot in captivity for
a summer had in captivityindividuals for years. And I
mean, these were injured animalsnearly open. And they were just
sort of tremendously interestinganimals to have around. Very
(26:25):
intelligent, resourceful. And atthis moment, I'm just picturing,
there may be people hearingthis, which may remember a bat
called Henry that we had, whichwas a long-eared bat with one
wing. And I can picture it now.
We were feeding it on thekitchen table, as we often did.
(26:45):
And it was a slippery surface onthe table, and the bat came out
of its cage to the food bowl.
And it slipped on the sort ofFormica surface. And we all
laughed. And it looked at uswith its wide eyes. 'What do you
(27:09):
do that for', you know, kind ofexpression that was, and I could
picture it. Now that is, that's,that's stuck with me for all
that was going back 30 years.
But yeah, they all gotindividual characters. And I
think that's the other thingthat people should remember.
They are all individuals, eventhough they live in colonies.
And it's important for them tolive in colonies, because of the
(27:30):
way in which they can exchangeinformation amongst each other,
and tell each other where thebest places to feed are, and all
that sort of thing. But they'reall individuals, and you've got
nice ones, and nasty ones, andvindictive ones, and just very
pleasant ones, in the samecolony, just like humans.
Steve Roe (27:54):
What message would you give to everyone listening
now? Who is involved in thatconversation? This is your one
chance to get a message outthere, what would it be?
Dr Bob Stebbings (28:01):
Well, in all the broadcasting I did in the
60s and 70s, particularly, theonly message I ever wanted to
put over was that bats arebeautiful creatures that need
our protection, because theyain't gonna get it from anywhere
else. And they give so muchdelight to bat group members all
(28:29):
over the country, people whohave them in their own houses.
Often nowadays, they love to seethem like swallows coming back
in the spring and that sort ofthing. And people really do get
real delight over watching thesefascinating animals flying
(28:50):
around at night wondering howthey're finding their way
around. But there's so much westill don't know about them. And
people should continue to marvelover these beautiful animals.
Steve Roe (29:03):
Nice answer. I'm just gonna go back a little bit when
you were mentioned Nathusius'and checking all the different
research and you said, you know,there wasn't that much research
out there. And you know, I'vegot this, this is the book that
dad brought home from, from hisplace of work when I was getting
into bats by you 'Which bat isit?' published by the mammal
society. Yes. How much work wentinto this and how did you even
(29:28):
get started in creating thisdichotomous ID key?
Dr Bob Stebbings (29:32):
When I first became interested in bats in the
early 1950s, there were no keyson how to identify bats that
were published. And I used toget all the books I could find
encyclopaedias which hadphotographs of bats. Many of the
bats that were in these bookswere dead specimens that was
(29:55):
propped up on a branch orsomething to make it look as if
they were alive. There was verylittle literature about just how
to identify them. My sort ofinterest in developing that
first publication was that Well,I found it difficult. I wanted
to make it easier for peoplecoming along to identify them.
(30:16):
Because the whole thing aboutnatural history is the first
principles are you want toidentify the species you're
looking at? Don't matter whatkind of animals or plants, you
want the key. And so I developedthat and sent it around to all
the people I knew at the timeand said, Have a look at this
(30:37):
and see what you think. And haveI left anything out? Or is could
anything be improved? Which ishow that happened? And yes, it's
got a thesis pipistrel on thecover, which was the one from
1969. And that is that is thatis the actual bat. Yes. And, you
know, we had it in captivity forabout three days, I think,
(30:59):
before it got released back towhere it was found, when it took
us that long to identify, to besure we were looking at that
specimen. So it was so importantthat I thought that was the
first thing I needed to publish.
And then it's been updated onceor twice since. And with a
little bit more on a collocationand things like that. But this
(31:22):
was really for the fieldnaturalist, someone who finds a
bat, I mean, so often, there wassome very notable naturalist of
the past, sent me a specimenswitch they had incorrectly
identified. And so even amongstpeople who you would think would
know, better, got the identitieswrong, which is why that was
(31:46):
produced. And then, as a resultof that, I got involved in
archaeological digs in a numberof places. And what I had
developed was a whole collectionof every species of bat,
dismembered into individualbones. And so even tiny
(32:07):
fragments of bones can beidentified to species, but I
haven't got a key for it. Myonly key is boxes and bottles,
all specimens to compare with,but it needs a key producing.
Steve Roe (32:24):
Okay, that's a challenge out there for someone
listening to do it.
Dr Bob Stebbings (32:27):
Yes, but I need to deposit somewhere else,
to some good cause at somestage.
Steve Roe (32:35):
And over the years, you've been involved with Bat
Conversation Trust to varyingdegrees. What do you think the
Bat Conservation Trust doesbest?
Dr Bob Stebbings (32:44):
Well, publicity is probably the best
thing. We still need as muchpublicity for bats as we can
get. I mean, okay. They doappear, but I was looking at a
journal the other day, whichcame from the Zoological Society
of London. And it's intended forkids, this magazine and the
(33:11):
talking about, you know,turtles, lizards, antelope,
gorillas, not to mention of abat anywhere, you know, and
after all, you know, a quarteror more of all mammals on Earth
are bats. And we still don't getenough mentioned. And it should
(33:34):
be much more out there. Andagain, I think that is still the
most important thing that allbat group members can do is
promote bats in everypossibility local newspapers,
you know, just talk, talk tojournalists. I mean, journalists
are always desperate for anysort of copy. And, you know, I
(33:58):
used to phone them up regularly,and national newspapers,
whatever, and you're bound toget an article the next day,
which for many newspapers would,if you're careful, in what you
say, would come out accurately,
Steve Roe (34:13):
Were you the person who invented the bat box because
you did that publication didn'tyou from the work that you did
in Thetford.
Dr Bob Stebbings (34:19):
It wsa invented, quote, unquote,
18-something or other by aFrenchman the concept of putting
in a box just for bats. I wasthe first person in Britain to,
if you like, develop the ideathat all bats needed was just a
(34:39):
space to form a cluster in;Britain being Britain's weather
they need to be warm a lot ofthe time. And also, they had a
thing about placing them high asbeing the only places that bets
reduce. So I built this firstone, so I didn't have a ladder,
so I put them on pine trees on anature reserve with three
(35:03):
different places but mostly on anature reserve, which is more
than nature's national naturereserve just north of where and
Dawson and I put them as high asI could reach. And I also put
some about two foot off theground. All of them were used
whatever height and I thought,oh, and I'm made nice simple
(35:26):
boxes, just crude self. More ofa square box. And then I
thought, Oh, that's right, thenwe will getting a lot of
publicity from bat boxes andbats generally. And a chap
called Ron Webster, who is aproducer of Natural History
(35:50):
items for the tonight programmewith Cliff Mitchell more do you
heard a clip? Long before you'reborn and he found out that they
had had sponsor a duck. Andthey've got 1000s of people
sponsoring a duck. And McDonald,hopefully, name you won't
(36:11):
remember. Whoa, no, either. Hewas the anchorman newsreader for
the BBC on BBC One. Anyway, thisRon Webster said. Can we do a
sponsor a bat? And I thoughtabout it a bit and thought, oh,
I don't know what we what can wedo sponsor? Oh, we could sponsor
(36:32):
bat boxes. Here. Let's try thatwe might get the odd 100 people
sponsoring or something. So wewent down to Dorset. And with
film crew and we filmed thesefew boxes that I put on these
pine trees 10 years before. Andit was in February, I think was
(36:54):
in the winter. The day wasn'tparticularly cold, but it wasn't
warm either. And so you got abat box cameraman set up. Sort
of walk up to the box, lift thelid, put the lid down and come
away. So walked up, lifted thelid, put it down and the
(37:19):
cameraman said, 'Hey, there's abat in that!' I wasn't expecting
a bat in the winter. Because I'dnever looked at them in the
midwinter at that time. And sureenough, it was long-eared bat
was hanging on the underside ofhad a ring on it. And so anyway,
we had that film. We showed itone evening and so 6:30
(37:42):
programme used to run from six'till seven. Called the
Nationwide. And it was watchedby a good proportion of the
whole country. Anyway, we saidsponsor a box for £7.50 I think
it was and and I said well,we'll be able to put the boxes
(38:04):
up close to where you are. Youwon't get to see them but we'll
get them in a bit of forestclose to the sponsor. Anyway, we
had over 3000 boxes sponsored.
Most of the sponsors wereresidents of London. And well,
the long short of it is with theaid of the forest Commission, we
(38:29):
so chose six which was going tobe run as a proper experiment.
We chose six forest Ardrossforest north of Inverness,
Kielder forest on the EnglandScottish border, Cannock forest
in the Midlands, Thetford forestin Norfolk, Wareham forest in
Dorset, and Yateley forest nearblackbushe Airport. And we're
(38:55):
going to put 60 boxes, no 60trees had eight boxes each. So a
tree would have four at fivemetres high, another four, three
metres high. So we could seewhether they prefer to be north
(39:16):
south, east and west and whetherthey prefer higher or lower
ones, all the same type of boxso on all made by disabled
manufacturing company. So we hadthese boxes and they got put up
in the autumn of 1975. And, ofcourse, I had to write a
(39:39):
newsletter sent out to all thesepeople, so I had to have a
secretary to keep in touch withover 3000 people. And of course,
nearly all the boxes sponsoredby Londoners put them all up in
our dress forest north ofInverness. So we had an awful
lot of disgruntled people andthe trees in Ardross forest.
(40:03):
Well, they were planted in 1896before the commission was
started, which wasn't starteduntil after the First World War.
And some of the trees are aboutthat diameter. So you couldn't
actually put four boxes aroundat the same height, they had to
be staggered. But the trees alsowould lean like that, where you
(40:24):
have a ladder up against them,and being on top of a hill,
often a gale blowing. Anyway, wewe did learn a lot from that.
And I used to do all the boxesin one week, I drive up on a
Sunday night to NorthwestScotland stay with a friend in
the Nature Conservancy Anyway itwas 2300 miles in the week, plus
(40:48):
six days running down 60 treescarrying ladders! It was, you
know, those days, it was noeffort because I was so young
and strong. And that went on tountil 1985, we did it for 10
years. And then quite a lot ofthem were then taken over by
(41:10):
local Bat Group's who carried ondoing them. Yeah, so we did
discover basically that batsprefer to be higher rather than
lower, but we'll still use them.
And they use different aspectsat different times, depending on
what the weather's doing, whatthe seasons doing. So basically,
(41:33):
that's why we came up with ageneral principle of putting up
three boxes. north south, west,south east on a single tree. So
three boxes per tree, becauseyou also find that when a box,
so you've got a strong morningsun on the south-east box may
get too hot. So the bats justmove around the tree during the
(41:56):
day. Whereas if you have one boxon a tree, if it gets too hot,
then they've got to come outflying get caught by a
sparrowhawk on the way. Yeah.
Which I've seen bats caught bysparrowhawks on a number of
occasions and by hobby. Sothat's how the general concept
of putting these boxes. I mean,I know there are so many
(42:19):
different shapes and designs andbats will use almost anything
anywhere, anytime. But it wasthe general principle of doing
experiments which nobody, allthese 1000s hundreds of 1000s of
boxes in Russia. No one had doneany actual experiments to
determine what the preferenceswere for bat so just put them
(42:39):
up.
Steve Roe (42:43):
Dr Bob Stebbings, it's been an honour talking to
you, thank you so much.
Dr Bob Stebbings (42:47):
Oh, it's been great pleasure. Memorising,
remembering stuff that I did along time ago.
Steve Roe (42:55):
Thank you to Bob for sitting down with me. It was a
real joy listening to all ofBob's stories about the history
of Bat Conservation here in theUK. As you've heard throughout
this series, bats are magicalbut misunderstood mammals. Here
at the Bat Conservation Trust,we have a vision of a world rich
in wildlife where bats andpeople thrive together. We know
that conservation action toprotect and conserve bats is
(43:16):
having a positive impact on batpopulations here in the UK, we
wouldn't be able to continue ourwork to protect bats and their
habitats without yourcontribution. So if you can
please donate, we need yoursupport. Now more than ever, you
can donate by following the linkat the bottom of the show notes
of any episode. Thank you. Andthat brings us to the end of
series four of BatChat. I reallyhope you've enjoyed listening to
(43:37):
all of our guests this seriesand the Bat Conservation stories
being told, it really helps usas a show if you leave us a
review about BatChat either in apodcast app or on social media
instructions of how to leave areview or in the show notes. And
you can tag us on social mediausing the hashtag BatChat. With
BatChat, we're reaching out tolovers of bats all over the
world. So if you know someonewho's never listened to a
(43:58):
podcast before, we'd love it, ifyou could show them how to
listen and how to find BatChat.
Now I mentioned at the start ofthe show that we had some news
for you. We're finishing thisseries slightly earlier than
usual, but we have a couple ofbonus episodes for you, which
will be released before thestart of the next series. So
make sure you tap that followbutton so that when those
episodes land, you'll get anotification straightaway. The
(44:19):
first of those bonus episodes isabout the upcoming landmark
nature documentary series WildIsles, narrated by Sir David
Attenborough this major fivepart Natural History Series from
Silverback films is coming toBBC One and iPlayer this year.
And we have an interview withthe Silverback team about that
series for you as a bonusepisode. You can watch the Wild
Isles trailer in the show notes.
(44:40):
Recording for series five ofBatChat is already underway and
will be coming later in theyear. We're looking for
participants to share batstories from across the UK with
the podcast. So if you'reworking on a great project or
have a story about the bats inyour area, please drop us an
email to the address in the shownotes. We hope you all have a
fantastic summer getting outthere and enjoy seeing bats in
(45:00):
the night sky. Batchat is anoriginal podcast from the Bat
Conservation Trust, the seriesproducer and editor was me,
Steve Roe, and I need to give ahuge thanks to all of my guests
this series, because withoutthem this show wouldn't happen.
And the communications team atBCT, Joe Nunez-Mino and Andreia
Correia da Costa, for theirfabulous work and supporting
promoting goes on social mediaand linking to the episodes on
(45:21):
the BCT website. And of course,without you listening to us,
there wouldn't be any point inproducing the show. So a huge
thanks to you guys, ourlisteners for your ongoing
support of the show.
Hello, and welcome to BatChat from the Bat
Conservation Trust, the leadingcharity in the United Kingdom
solely devoted to theconservation of bats and the
landscapes on which they rely.
This podcast is for anyone wholoves bats. We bring you stories
straight to your headphones fromthe world of bat conservation,
and from the people out theredoing work that furthers our
understanding of these magicalcreatures. I'm Steve Roe;
(00:28):
professionally, I'm an ecologistand in my spare time, I'm a
trustee of the Bat ConservationTrust. You can join the
conversation online using thehashtag BatChat - that's all one
word. This week, we've a bumperepisode for you. And it's
actually our last in thiscurrent series. But don't panic.
We have some news on that foryou later in the show. This
week, we're sitting down withDr. Robert Stebbings. We heard
(00:51):
about Bob in the very firstepisode of BatChat from Shirley
Thompson, who mentioned he wasinvolved in the TV episode,
'bats need friends' at the endof the first ever national bat
year in the late 1980s. Bob nowlives in Northamptonshire, and
it was last summer when I methim at his house. After catching
up over coffee, we sat down inthe conservatory overlooking his
garden and I asked him how itall started.
Dr Bob Stebbings (01:17):
So we'll start from the beginning. I mean, you
were 12 when you becameinterested in bats. I was
exactly 10 years old when I wasfirst invited to join a
Cambridge University group thathad got interested in studying
bats at Bury St Edmunds,Suffolk, which is where I was
born and bred. And I was takenunderground on the second of
(01:41):
January 1952. And I was shownhow to identify the bats that
were in chalk mines near Bury StEdmunds. And I was then shown
how to ring bats on that firstvisit. And I was ringing bats
from the second of January 1952At the age of 10, at the age of
(02:02):
10 and two months! And the chapwho taught me was a chap called
Owen Gilbert, who was a soilscientist who worked for the
Nature Conservancy in Maplewoodin Cumbria. So he didn't often
visit Bury St Edmunds. So wecorresponded and telephoned each
(02:26):
other occasionally, and Icarried on going underground by
myself winter after winter,visiting the site and ringing
bats and recovering ringed onesand finding new ones, and so on
and so forth. And by 1957 Idiscovered that the activities
(02:50):
that well I didn't reallyrealise that at the time, but
this was subsequently, Irealised that what I was doing
was disturbing bats and causingthem to avoid being caught. And
so in 1957, we wrote a paperabout the results, and that was
(03:10):
published in the zoologicalJournal of the zoological
society. And basically, it saidthat the number of bats in any
hibernating location wasdetermined by the amount of
disturbance they had. Now, Iused to go about once a month,
so the winter so starting inSeptember, through to April, at
(03:33):
the same time, I was looking atresearch papers published in The
Netherlands particularly, werebad work, rigging bats that
started in the 1930s. And theyhad come by 1957, to the
conclusion that they too werecausing the decline of bats in
(03:54):
the places they were looking.
But I was also looking atcolonies of bats in areas which
had been written about in thepsychological literature over
the previous two centuries.
Everything from Gilbert White,talking about the noctue bats in
Hampshire, where he lived, andalso the noctule bats that lived
(04:17):
around the west side of Bury StEdmunds, which used to number
say, three or 400 noctules in aneyeful just flying above my
head, feeding on summer chafers,the smaller version of the
cockchafer over and over justclouds up them. Now by 1960 When
(04:41):
I left Bury St Edmunds to startmy official work my full time
work. Those bats havedisappeared all but I'd only see
a few. And I've been backseveral times over the last
40/50 years. And there are veryfew noctules flying anywhere.
I'm in the summer in that partof the country. So you're going
(05:03):
from a population that must havenumbered many hundreds, down to
close to zero now, in the samesort of period, I started work
at Hillsborough Research Stationin Dorset and which was 1884
Victorian house with hollowwalls and several different
sections to the roof. And withina short space of time, although
(05:27):
I was a botanist, supposedly, Iused to go into the roof spaces
at lunchtime, and I found nineBritish species of bats living
in that roof. So that was greylong-eared, brown long-eared,
Daubenton's occasionalwhiskered, very occasional
Natterer's, mouse-eared bat. Nowmouse-eared as you may realise,
(05:52):
was very rare at the best oftimes in Britain. What I did do,
though, I did discover insurveying big houses in the
purple, I did find where it hadbeen breeding for a number of
years, I found a huge pile ofdroppings in a big building,
which also had greaterhorseshoes as a nursery colony,
which was exterminated in 1953.
But I didn't discover it until1961. But because greater
(06:17):
horseshoes lived in the area,and I was aware that the numbers
had gone down substantially justby talking to local people. And
so then I got really interestedin working on the greater
horseshoe, not only in Dorset,but across Britain, and did
discover that the numbers havedeclined from say 150 to
(06:40):
200,000, down to less than15,000. The time I was doing
this work, I mean, this is sortof condensing 25 years work. And
pesticide poisoning, timbertreatment in buildings was one
of the principal causes. So moreand more, I was getting drawn
(07:03):
into looking after these batsthroughout Britain. And there
was a chap called Roger Ransome,who was working in
Gloucestershire, around Stroud,and his area sort of went down
into the Mendips, and morelaterally across to the Forest
(07:24):
of Dean, that sort of areas. Sohe worked on that colony from
the late 50s. Right through to,well he's still working! In the
case of Wales, the work was,well, a chap called Tom McOwat.
I met him on his honeymoon on aboat to Rum. And I was working
(07:47):
on the size clines inpipistrelle bats across the
whole of the UK. And I haddiscovered that there are bats
on Rum. So I went up there onthe 17th of June 1971, in order
to catch a sample of the colonyliving on rum, and on the boat
(08:09):
going over there, I justhappened to meet Tom McOwat and
his wife Rena, and he wasbasically an artist who had been
working for Cumbernauld councilas a sort of trainee illustrator
artist. And then shortlyafterwards, he moved to South
(08:31):
Wales to do an art course atCartmarthan art college. And
this was 1972/73, that sort ofperiod. And he kept writing to
me saying he was interested incaving, basically. And he kept
writing to me saying it foundgreater horseshoes hanging in
(08:54):
various places, mines, caves,just old ones and twos. And so
in 1975, we visited all thesesites and we started putting
rings on them, and the recoveredthem in different places. And
then, there was one day end of1975 October, there were two
(09:16):
botanists working at Stackpoleon behalf of the Nature
Conservancy, as it still was inthose days. And they said they
were staying in the stable blockat Stackpole. House as walls.
And they discovered a chap hewas killing bats coming out of
(09:41):
the roof of this house, or thestable block and one of the bats
they picked up and had a ring onit. That ring then was given to
the system regional officerwarden in the Nature Conservancy
chap called Stephen Evans. Amonth or more later, that ring
got to me. And I said Eureka.
(10:05):
And it turned out to be the mainbreeding site for the greater
horseshoe in southwest Wales. Isay main because subsequently,
we discovered lots of differentplaces. But it was then, through
lots of evidence that weinvestigated, we discovered that
must have been at least 15,000killed at the time in 1962. When
(10:30):
the building burnt down, due toa it was a dust fire, basically,
explosive fire.
And as a result of all that, wetalked with all the all the
locals who had lived there, andthey used to say, well, we you
still walk home and thewoodlands near there. And bats
were constantly bumping into us,you know, great horseshoes that
(10:55):
there was so thick in the air,you couldn't avoid being hit by
them. So we were started doing aseries of pub talks. Saturday
night, we'd set up a screen in apub, we went around to all the
local area. And I'd talk, youknow, in the pubs about bats
really wanting to get localpeople to come to a saying,
(11:17):
Well, we know where bats are andwhere they used to be and all
that. So we got a huge amount ofinformation like that. And it
was surprising how much creptout of the woodwork. And so
we've gradually built up a verybig picture of the whole of West
Wales and Tom McOwat has reallysort of brought it all to life
(11:37):
and managed to get the site'sprotected, but he's done a
tremendous amount of work on it.
So that was another episode,which is so important for the
bats of West Wales. I mean, itwasn't just the greater
horseshoe. When I was doingsurveys in west Wales, I came
across the first records forserotine bats. And then on one
(11:59):
of the courses I used to do atOrielton Field Study Centre, I
went up into the roof to showpeople what we look for in roofs
and how to survey for bats andso on so forth, one of the
regular courses that I used todo, and I said, 'Oh, that's
interesting, that bat up therein the roof, that's a Nathusius'
(12:20):
pipistrelle'. And that was thefirst Nathusius' for Wales. I
had found the first for Britainin 1969, in Dorset in the House
Research Station that I firststudied in. And in that
particular case, I happen to bewith the senior officer for the
research station. And I was justtaking him around to show him
(12:44):
all the different places, Ifound bats. And there was a rich
tile with a little tiny hole init. And I looked up and looked
in the hole with a torch,couldn't see your face or
anything. And I said, 'Oh,that's a bat that's new to
Britain'. Just as you do! Ittook us two days to actually,
(13:05):
well got it out of the hole. Andthen it took two days to really
confirm what it was. Because wedidn't have all the books and
things with us at the time.
Steve Roe (13:18):
I was going to say yeah, where do you go for that?
Sort of?
Dr Bob Stebbings (13:20):
Yeah, so we did measurements and all that.
So that got published in Nature,actually, the scientific journal
as a new record for Britain. AndI should say that when I first
started studying bats inBritain, the species list was
just 12. And now it's what17/18? Who knows? New ones turn
(13:43):
up! Yeah. So, um, so my lifereally has been principally
looking at the rare, endangeredspecies. The horseshoe work got
published in a number ofdifferent places. But during the
late 1960s, I was gettingincreasingly concerned that bats
(14:08):
were still being killedneedlessly. And the thing which
changed everything was Europeanconservation year, which was
1970. Now, before 1970, all thetelephone calls I used to get
were, I've got bats, how do Iget rid of them? Well, I did a
(14:29):
lot of broadcasting radio andtelevision through the 1960s.
And I did an intensive amountduring 1970 because all the
other species were beinghighlighted across Europe that
needed protection. And I jumpedon the bandwagon and said, What
about bats because nobody elsewas interested in bats across
Europe. After 1970 I used to gettelephone calls, then saying,
(14:55):
We've got bats. We know wemustn't kill them, but how can
we get rid of them? So the wholetone of telephone calls changed
in that one year. Now, LordSalisbury, who was a botanist,
he had got an act in parliamentthat was beginning to take
shape, which was to protectendangered species of plants,
(15:17):
wild plants. And a friend ofmine at the time who was
president of the mammal societyand of the Suffolk naturalist
society, Lord Cranbrook. I said,Look, we need to get bats
protected. Oh, can't do thatTheir Lordships won't like
having bats protected. What canwe narrow it down to because the
(15:38):
lordships like animals with bigeyes and nice cuddly things they
don't like the idea of. So wegradually worked it up the wild
creatures and wild plants act of1975 included the mouse eared
bat and the greater horseshoe.
And also that ringing bats,which were already shown was
(15:59):
harming bats throughdisturbance. We'll put marking
bats on it as well. AndCranbrook said, 'well they'll
probably accept that'. Sureenough, by the end of 1975, that
act was law. And so themouse-eared which was
effectively extinct anyway. Andthe greater horseshoe were
(16:21):
protected, as well as meaningthat anyone wanting to bring
bats had then to get a licence.
So I was employed by the NatureConservancy to organise the
ringing of bats and licencingand all that sort of thing. But
that wasn't good enough for me.
So after the 75 Act, we thenwere greatly encouraged in
(16:42):
Britain by a chap called JackCreighton, Lord Creighton, he
was Secretary of State forScotland. He really got
interested in bats, and he hadmuch more power in government
having been a minister. And wehad a number of meetings in
Parliament. I gave talks todifferent groups of MPs and
(17:07):
lordships in parliament over twoor three years. And eventually,
the wildlife and countryside act1981 was developed and passed.
And there was a huge amount ofanti Stebbings at the time in
the press, and even hit theWashington Post as being a
(17:29):
pariah of conservationistsstill, quite fun. really in some
respects, it didn't, didn'treally hurt. I was just annoyed.
Steve Roe (17:44):
What was it that sort of inspired you to get that
group set up? You know, what wasthe process of it? And how
enthusiastic were people toactually get those groups set
up? Because some of thosepre-date BCT, don't they?
Dr Bob Stebbings (17:57):
Oh, yes, yes, yes. Well, there was John
Goldsmith in Norwich, sort ofNorfolk back group, but one man.
He started Oh, he was going inthe 1960s. He died of course, a
couple of years ago. And then inthe 70s, Phil Richardson. So
(18:25):
suddenly, somebody who wasinterested in mammals as well as
bats, and sort of floated moretowards bats by sort of 1980
ish. So he had started early on.
The London bat group, they werequite early with Tony Hutson. So
but what I was concerned about,I mean, as I was working full
(18:51):
time on bats, it was if youlike, I had the time to be able
to develop these groups. And Ithought, Well, what we need is
county bat groups, you know, notjust the odd one, but all the
counties. And so I started doingcourses in different counties in
the early 1980s, just when theAct had come into place. So I'd
(19:15):
give talks to Council offices,which often included local
naturalist and people that thecouncil already knew. And then
individual counties came up witha bat group. And a lot of people
then came to the various coursesthat I was running in different
places around the country, mostnoticeably, Preston Montfort in
Shropshire, and the Alton FieldStudy Centre in west Wales, they
(19:40):
were always sort ofoversubscribed by people wanting
to go on the courses. And thenI'd give individual courses up
and down the country.
Steve Roe (19:52):
I mean, you mentioned some great names there. I mean,
when I was here, when I wasgetting into bats, we went, we'd
go on holiday to various placesto North Norfolk or Devon and
Cornwall. And we'd been in thebat group for a couple of years.
And we were going on a familyholiday to Norfolk. And we'd
said to some people in [thegroup] on the committee we're
going to Norfolk, have you gotany good places to go. And Pete
(20:14):
Bush said 'oh my trainer wasJohn Goldsmith, I'll give you
his email address, dropped Johnan email and got a reply
straightaway and said, Yeah, I'mnot here that week. But if you
phone this lady Sue Parsons,she's doing work at Paston Great
Barn'. Phoned Sue she was like,Yeah, I'm doing account next
week, you know, come in, comealong, here's where to go here's
a grid reference. And, you know,she was so enthusiastic took me
(20:36):
inside Paston Barn to see these40/50 barbastelles.
Dr Bob Stebbings (20:41):
Nice barn Paston but only if you've not
got to pay for the repair of theroof!
Steve Roe (20:46):
And it was just so nice to have people who were so
enthusiastic to get peopleinvolved in and enthused,
really. And I think thoseexperiences really did sort of
keep me going to do what I'mdoing now. What do you think are
going to be the challenges forbat conservation in the future?
Dr Bob Stebbings (21:02):
Well, again, the watering down and
amateurish-ness of NaturalEngland. The focus on species
conservation has dropped, whichin one sense is okay, if you're
maintaining habitats in the waythat they are recreating
(21:25):
habitats, real rewilding, ofcourse, is the in buzzword I
suppose. But when I was young,you know, I'm talking about
1950s. Particularly, you'd goout of an evening, and almost
wherever you were, there wouldbe clouds of bats flying around.
(21:45):
In the late 70s, I was able toshow through national surveys
that I started, which has beencontinued by BCT. I was able to
show huge declines happeningvery quickly, which was
principally due to climate, badweather at the wrong time, you
know, so the young of the yearcouldn't be fed by the mothers
(22:06):
because they couldn't get enoughfood to feed them. And then, of
course, it takes years for thenumbers to rebuild afterwards,
and they never do rebuildbecause by that time, habitats
have changed.
Steve Roe (22:21):
Now we'll come back to Bob's interview in a minute
or two, but one of our listenershas written a poem about bats.
Helen Ball from StaffordshireBat Group has actually appeared
in series two episode 20 when Ijoined her underground on the
search for hibernating bats, soif you've not heard that, do go
and listen to it after thisepisode. Helen's poem is
narrated by Morgan Brind, whorecently co-hosted the BCT batty
(22:41):
awards for talented achievement.
This is Night Winged.
Morgan Brind (22:45):
"We share this fleeting moment, as day and
night divide and colours dimand soften, awakening dulled
eyes. Elemental movementsebb at the periphery of my
(23:09):
sight, shape-shifting intodarkness, aware of shortening
light. As it passes fromshadow to shadow, dark against
darkening sky, its deafeningcalls of silence go unheard by
the passer-by. Images waneand flicker with every swoop
(23:31):
and dart and dive, skeins ofmovement pieced together,
falling through starlight.
If I gleaned you from theheavens, held you fast and
tight, would your mysteryevaporate, like your presence
in the night?"
Steve Roe (24:17):
That was Night Winged by Helen Ball. A huge thanks to
Helen for creating thatbeautiful piece. You can find
her online we've put the linksin the show notes. If you've got
a piece of writing or poetrythat you'd like to share with
us, drop us an email to theaddress in the show notes and
you never know. It might befeatured on a future episode.
Now back to Bob's interview.
What do you think we can do toinspire the next generation of
(24:40):
young bat workers? Because theyare the future, aren't they?
Dr Bob Stebbings (24:44):
Yes, well, quite so. The reason I dropped
out of bat work was because Ididn't have the energy anymore
and it takes a lot of energy tofight politicians and it's not
up to me. I'm old. And it's upto young people. It's it's the
(25:07):
their Earth now. And, okay,young people will make some
mistakes like we all did in thepast. But it's their world. And
they're the people who will beseeing changes now. And will
have to go forth and work withpoliticians, because it's still
politicians who are the key.
Steve Roe (25:29):
So this is going to be difficult question, given
you've done power work for thelast 70 years? What's been your
most notable or favourite memoryof working with that? Or a
particular bat species?
Dr Bob Stebbings (25:40):
Oh, golly.
Well, I shouldn't say this, I'msupposed to be a scientist.
I think they're just beautifulanimals, incredible animals. You
know, and they've given me aliving for heaven's sake, which,
(26:01):
well, can't be bad for me. Butno, I had a lot in captivity for
a summer had in captivityindividuals for years. And I
mean, these were injured animalsnearly open. And they were just
sort of tremendously interestinganimals to have around. Very
(26:25):
intelligent, resourceful. And atthis moment, I'm just picturing,
there may be people hearingthis, which may remember a bat
called Henry that we had, whichwas a long-eared bat with one
wing. And I can picture it now.
We were feeding it on thekitchen table, as we often did.
(26:45):
And it was a slippery surface onthe table, and the bat came out
of its cage to the food bowl.
And it slipped on the sort ofFormica surface. And we all
laughed. And it looked at uswith its wide eyes. 'What do you
(27:09):
do that for', you know, kind ofexpression that was, and I could
picture it. Now that is, that's,that's stuck with me for all
that was going back 30 years.
But yeah, they all gotindividual characters. And I
think that's the other thingthat people should remember.
They are all individuals, eventhough they live in colonies.
And it's important for them tolive in colonies, because of the
(27:30):
way in which they can exchangeinformation amongst each other,
and tell each other where thebest places to feed are, and all
that sort of thing. But they'reall individuals, and you've got
nice ones, and nasty ones, andvindictive ones, and just very
pleasant ones, in the samecolony, just like humans.
Steve Roe (27:54):
What message would you give to everyone listening
now? Who is involved in thatconversation? This is your one
chance to get a message outthere, what would it be?
Dr Bob Stebbings (28:01):
Well, in all the broadcasting I did in the
60s and 70s, particularly, theonly message I ever wanted to
put over was that bats arebeautiful creatures that need
our protection, because theyain't gonna get it from anywhere
else. And they give so muchdelight to bat group members all
(28:29):
over the country, people whohave them in their own houses.
Often nowadays, they love to seethem like swallows coming back
in the spring and that sort ofthing. And people really do get
real delight over watching thesefascinating animals flying
(28:50):
around at night wondering howthey're finding their way
around. But there's so much westill don't know about them. And
people should continue to marvelover these beautiful animals.
Steve Roe (29:03):
Nice answer. I'm just gonna go back a little bit when
you were mentioned Nathusius'and checking all the different
research and you said, you know,there wasn't that much research
out there. And you know, I'vegot this, this is the book that
dad brought home from, from hisplace of work when I was getting
into bats by you 'Which bat isit?' published by the mammal
society. Yes. How much work wentinto this and how did you even
(29:28):
get started in creating thisdichotomous ID key?
Dr Bob Stebbings (29:32):
When I first became interested in bats in the
early 1950s, there were no keyson how to identify bats that
were published. And I used toget all the books I could find
encyclopaedias which hadphotographs of bats. Many of the
bats that were in these bookswere dead specimens that was
(29:55):
propped up on a branch orsomething to make it look as if
they were alive. There was verylittle literature about just how
to identify them. My sort ofinterest in developing that
first publication was that Well,I found it difficult. I wanted
to make it easier for peoplecoming along to identify them.
(30:16):
Because the whole thing aboutnatural history is the first
principles are you want toidentify the species you're
looking at? Don't matter whatkind of animals or plants, you
want the key. And so I developedthat and sent it around to all
the people I knew at the timeand said, Have a look at this
(30:37):
and see what you think. And haveI left anything out? Or is could
anything be improved? Which ishow that happened? And yes, it's
got a thesis pipistrel on thecover, which was the one from
1969. And that is that is thatis the actual bat. Yes. And, you
know, we had it in captivity forabout three days, I think,
(30:59):
before it got released back towhere it was found, when it took
us that long to identify, to besure we were looking at that
specimen. So it was so importantthat I thought that was the
first thing I needed to publish.
And then it's been updated onceor twice since. And with a
little bit more on a collocationand things like that. But this
(31:22):
was really for the fieldnaturalist, someone who finds a
bat, I mean, so often, there wassome very notable naturalist of
the past, sent me a specimenswitch they had incorrectly
identified. And so even amongstpeople who you would think would
know, better, got the identitieswrong, which is why that was
(31:46):
produced. And then, as a resultof that, I got involved in
archaeological digs in a numberof places. And what I had
developed was a whole collectionof every species of bat,
dismembered into individualbones. And so even tiny
(32:07):
fragments of bones can beidentified to species, but I
haven't got a key for it. Myonly key is boxes and bottles,
all specimens to compare with,but it needs a key producing.
Steve Roe (32:24):
Okay, that's a challenge out there for someone
listening to do it.
Dr Bob Stebbings (32:27):
Yes, but I need to deposit somewhere else,
to some good cause at somestage.
Steve Roe (32:35):
And over the years, you've been involved with Bat
Conversation Trust to varyingdegrees. What do you think the
Bat Conservation Trust doesbest?
Dr Bob Stebbings (32:44):
Well, publicity is probably the best
thing. We still need as muchpublicity for bats as we can
get. I mean, okay. They doappear, but I was looking at a
journal the other day, whichcame from the Zoological Society
of London. And it's intended forkids, this magazine and the
(33:11):
talking about, you know,turtles, lizards, antelope,
gorillas, not to mention of abat anywhere, you know, and
after all, you know, a quarteror more of all mammals on Earth
are bats. And we still don't getenough mentioned. And it should
(33:34):
be much more out there. Andagain, I think that is still the
most important thing that allbat group members can do is
promote bats in everypossibility local newspapers,
you know, just talk, talk tojournalists. I mean, journalists
are always desperate for anysort of copy. And, you know, I
(33:58):
used to phone them up regularly,and national newspapers,
whatever, and you're bound toget an article the next day,
which for many newspapers would,if you're careful, in what you
say, would come out accurately,
Steve Roe (34:13):
Were you the person who invented the bat box because
you did that publication didn'tyou from the work that you did
in Thetford.
Dr Bob Stebbings (34:19):
It wsa invented, quote, unquote,
18-something or other by aFrenchman the concept of putting
in a box just for bats. I wasthe first person in Britain to,
if you like, develop the ideathat all bats needed was just a
(34:39):
space to form a cluster in;Britain being Britain's weather
they need to be warm a lot ofthe time. And also, they had a
thing about placing them high asbeing the only places that bets
reduce. So I built this firstone, so I didn't have a ladder,
so I put them on pine trees on anature reserve with three
(35:03):
different places but mostly on anature reserve, which is more
than nature's national naturereserve just north of where and
Dawson and I put them as high asI could reach. And I also put
some about two foot off theground. All of them were used
whatever height and I thought,oh, and I'm made nice simple
(35:26):
boxes, just crude self. More ofa square box. And then I
thought, Oh, that's right, thenwe will getting a lot of
publicity from bat boxes andbats generally. And a chap
called Ron Webster, who is aproducer of Natural History
(35:50):
items for the tonight programmewith Cliff Mitchell more do you
heard a clip? Long before you'reborn and he found out that they
had had sponsor a duck. Andthey've got 1000s of people
sponsoring a duck. And McDonald,hopefully, name you won't
(36:11):
remember. Whoa, no, either. Hewas the anchorman newsreader for
the BBC on BBC One. Anyway, thisRon Webster said. Can we do a
sponsor a bat? And I thoughtabout it a bit and thought, oh,
I don't know what we what can wedo sponsor? Oh, we could sponsor
(36:32):
bat boxes. Here. Let's try thatwe might get the odd 100 people
sponsoring or something. So wewent down to Dorset. And with
film crew and we filmed thesefew boxes that I put on these
pine trees 10 years before. Andit was in February, I think was
(36:54):
in the winter. The day wasn'tparticularly cold, but it wasn't
warm either. And so you got abat box cameraman set up. Sort
of walk up to the box, lift thelid, put the lid down and come
away. So walked up, lifted thelid, put it down and the
(37:19):
cameraman said, 'Hey, there's abat in that!' I wasn't expecting
a bat in the winter. Because I'dnever looked at them in the
midwinter at that time. And sureenough, it was long-eared bat
was hanging on the underside ofhad a ring on it. And so anyway,
we had that film. We showed itone evening and so 6:30
(37:42):
programme used to run from six'till seven. Called the
Nationwide. And it was watchedby a good proportion of the
whole country. Anyway, we saidsponsor a box for £7.50 I think
it was and and I said well,we'll be able to put the boxes
(38:04):
up close to where you are. Youwon't get to see them but we'll
get them in a bit of forestclose to the sponsor. Anyway, we
had over 3000 boxes sponsored.
Most of the sponsors wereresidents of London. And well,
the long short of it is with theaid of the forest Commission, we
(38:29):
so chose six which was going tobe run as a proper experiment.
We chose six forest Ardrossforest north of Inverness,
Kielder forest on the EnglandScottish border, Cannock forest
in the Midlands, Thetford forestin Norfolk, Wareham forest in
Dorset, and Yateley forest nearblackbushe Airport. And we're
(38:55):
going to put 60 boxes, no 60trees had eight boxes each. So a
tree would have four at fivemetres high, another four, three
metres high. So we could seewhether they prefer to be north
(39:16):
south, east and west and whetherthey prefer higher or lower
ones, all the same type of boxso on all made by disabled
manufacturing company. So we hadthese boxes and they got put up
in the autumn of 1975. And, ofcourse, I had to write a
(39:39):
newsletter sent out to all thesepeople, so I had to have a
secretary to keep in touch withover 3000 people. And of course,
nearly all the boxes sponsoredby Londoners put them all up in
our dress forest north ofInverness. So we had an awful
lot of disgruntled people andthe trees in Ardross forest.
(40:03):
Well, they were planted in 1896before the commission was
started, which wasn't starteduntil after the First World War.
And some of the trees are aboutthat diameter. So you couldn't
actually put four boxes aroundat the same height, they had to
be staggered. But the trees alsowould lean like that, where you
(40:24):
have a ladder up against them,and being on top of a hill,
often a gale blowing. Anyway, wewe did learn a lot from that.
And I used to do all the boxesin one week, I drive up on a
Sunday night to NorthwestScotland stay with a friend in
the Nature Conservancy Anyway itwas 2300 miles in the week, plus
(40:48):
six days running down 60 treescarrying ladders! It was, you
know, those days, it was noeffort because I was so young
and strong. And that went on tountil 1985, we did it for 10
years. And then quite a lot ofthem were then taken over by
(41:10):
local Bat Group's who carried ondoing them. Yeah, so we did
discover basically that batsprefer to be higher rather than
lower, but we'll still use them.
And they use different aspectsat different times, depending on
what the weather's doing, whatthe seasons doing. So basically,
(41:33):
that's why we came up with ageneral principle of putting up
three boxes. north south, west,south east on a single tree. So
three boxes per tree, becauseyou also find that when a box,
so you've got a strong morningsun on the south-east box may
get too hot. So the bats justmove around the tree during the
(41:56):
day. Whereas if you have one boxon a tree, if it gets too hot,
then they've got to come outflying get caught by a
sparrowhawk on the way. Yeah.
Which I've seen bats caught bysparrowhawks on a number of
occasions and by hobby. Sothat's how the general concept
of putting these boxes. I mean,I know there are so many
(42:19):
different shapes and designs andbats will use almost anything
anywhere, anytime. But it wasthe general principle of doing
experiments which nobody, allthese 1000s hundreds of 1000s of
boxes in Russia. No one had doneany actual experiments to
determine what the preferenceswere for bat so just put them
(42:39):
up.
Steve Roe (42:43):
Dr Bob Stebbings, it's been an honour talking to
you, thank you so much.
Dr Bob Stebbings (42:47):
Oh, it's been great pleasure. Memorising,
remembering stuff that I did along time ago.
Steve Roe (42:55):
Thank you to Bob for sitting down with me. It was a
real joy listening to all ofBob's stories about the history
of Bat Conservation here in theUK. As you've heard throughout
this series, bats are magicalbut misunderstood mammals. Here
at the Bat Conservation Trust,we have a vision of a world rich
in wildlife where bats andpeople thrive together. We know
that conservation action toprotect and conserve bats is
(43:16):
having a positive impact on batpopulations here in the UK, we
wouldn't be able to continue ourwork to protect bats and their
habitats without yourcontribution. So if you can
please donate, we need yoursupport. Now more than ever, you
can donate by following the linkat the bottom of the show notes
of any episode. Thank you. Andthat brings us to the end of
series four of BatChat. I reallyhope you've enjoyed listening to
(43:37):
all of our guests this seriesand the Bat Conservation stories
being told, it really helps usas a show if you leave us a
review about BatChat either in apodcast app or on social media
instructions of how to leave areview or in the show notes. And
you can tag us on social mediausing the hashtag BatChat. With
BatChat, we're reaching out tolovers of bats all over the
world. So if you know someonewho's never listened to a
(43:58):
podcast before, we'd love it, ifyou could show them how to
listen and how to find BatChat.
Now I mentioned at the start ofthe show that we had some news
for you. We're finishing thisseries slightly earlier than
usual, but we have a couple ofbonus episodes for you, which
will be released before thestart of the next series. So
make sure you tap that followbutton so that when those
episodes land, you'll get anotification straightaway. The
(44:19):
first of those bonus episodes isabout the upcoming landmark
nature documentary series WildIsles, narrated by Sir David
Attenborough this major fivepart Natural History Series from
Silverback films is coming toBBC One and iPlayer this year.
And we have an interview withthe Silverback team about that
series for you as a bonusepisode. You can watch the Wild
Isles trailer in the show notes.
(44:40):
Recording for series five ofBatChat is already underway and
will be coming later in theyear. We're looking for
participants to share batstories from across the UK with
the podcast. So if you'reworking on a great project or
have a story about the bats inyour area, please drop us an
email to the address in the shownotes. We hope you all have a
fantastic summer getting outthere and enjoy seeing bats in
(45:00):
the night sky. Batchat is anoriginal podcast from the Bat
Conservation Trust, the seriesproducer and editor was me,
Steve Roe, and I need to give ahuge thanks to all of my guests
this series, because withoutthem this show wouldn't happen.
And the communications team atBCT, Joe Nunez-Mino and Andreia
Correia da Costa, for theirfabulous work and supporting
promoting goes on social mediaand linking to the episodes on
(45:21):
the BCT website. And of course,without you listening to us,
there wouldn't be any point inproducing the show. So a huge
thanks to you guys, ourlisteners for your ongoing
support of the show.
Popular Podcasts
1. Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
2. Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations.
3. Crime Junkie
If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people.