February 15, 2023 • 21 mins
Send us a Text Message with what batty adventures you’ve been up to this summer!
S4E42 This week Steve joins Chris Damant in the grounds of Cliveden House on the banks of the River Thames. As fine dining takes place in the hotel above them, Chris and his team have set up traps to catch bats as they arrive to mate in the middle of the night. Underneath the south terrace are a number of rooms which mimic underground structures and its these that the bats travel to from far and wide to undertake an annual phenomenon, autumn swarming. Cliveden hosts one of the most important bat sites in the country, with eight species swarming here between August and October.
- Read more about the work Chris has undertaken at Cliveden
- Follow Chris Damant on twitter and instagram
- Take a look at our ROOST website that Chris mentions in this episode
- Book your place at the Scottish or South-West bat conferences
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Steve Roe (00:06):
Welcome back to BatChat from the Bat
Conservation Trust. This seriesso far has been our most
downloaded ever. So thank youfor your continued support of
the show. If you're listening tous for the first time with the
Bat Conservation Trust, theleading charity in the United
Kingdom solely devoted to theconservation of bats and the
landscapes on which they rely,and this podcast of ours is for
(00:28):
anyone who loves bats. With eachepisode, we're bringing the
hidden lives of bats from themiddle of the night straight to
your headphones. I'm Steve Roe.
Professionally, I'm an ecologistand in my spare time, I'm a
trustee of the Bat ConservationTrust. You can join the
conversation online using thehashtag #BatChat ... that's all
one word. Before we join ourguest in a moment, we wanted to
let all of our listeners inScotland know that the Scottish
(00:49):
bat conference will be takingplace on Saturday the fourth of
March at Stirling University andwill be run as a hybrid event.
The Scottish conference providesan opportunity for both
volunteer and professionalnetworkers across Scotland to
spend time together, updatingtheir knowledge sharing best
practice, developing theirskills and catching up on the
latest bat news. The day willinclude spotlight talks from
(01:11):
various back groups acrossScotland, longer talks on
projects or sharing newknowledge and research talks.
The link to book is in the shownotes. And to all of our
listeners in the south-west ofEngland your next regional
conference is on Saturday the25th of March at the Petroc
College Tiverton campus. Again,this one day event is an
opportunity for anyoneinterested in bats from
(01:32):
hobbyists and volunteers toprofessional vertical assists to
spend time together. The dayincludes a mixture of short and
long talks on projects and achoice of practical workshops.
There will also be time forcatching up with batty friends
or making some new battyacquaintances. If you've never
attended a bat conferencebefore, I'd really encourage you
to attend. You don't need toknow anything about bats to
(01:53):
attend, but I can guaranteeyou'll learn something and come
away with new connections eitherfrom BCT or your local bat
group. The booking pages forthose two events can be reached
from our show notes. So it'stime to join this week's guest.
Back in September, I headed downto Berkshire. Sat on the banks
of the upper reaches of theriver Thames, Clivedon is an
impressive house and Estate inthe care of the National Trust
(02:15):
and sits on the edge of theChiltern hills. The garden
slopes down towards the Thamesand it's on the edge of the lawn
that you join Chris Damantwatching his surveyors check
harp traps and mist nets againstthe tall wall of the south
terrace. Above them in the housewhich is now a hotel, guests
have no idea of the work takingplace below them.
Chris Damant (02:41):
So we're sitting at Clivedon National Trust
property overlooking the Thames.
It's been a bit overcast day,but we're hoping that the bats
will arrive shortly and startswarming around the south
terrace.
The Grand Terrace above theparterre where fine dining is
taking place, and people areenjoying grand meals. But the
(03:01):
bats are about to arrive forsome close encounters we hope.
Steve Roe (03:06):
I mean, Chris says 'the grand balcony' the grand
balcony is probably as tall asmy house and that's before the
house [Cliveden] starts. Sorather an impressive structure,
isn't it?
And you can probably hear a bitof a squeaking noise behind us
that's edible dormouse.
digits.
Swarming is a little bit unique.
It's a built structure. But
Chris Damant (03:21):
Yes. Introduced by Rothschilds in the Chiltern's
many many years ago and slowlyexpanding their range
we're lucky that south terraceunderneath it has a series of
Chambers from fernery grillfoundries with their goldleaf
(03:49):
metalwork that extend intoenclosed water tanks created
many years ago because the househas previously burned down a few
times. So it was super cool. Thewater tanks are built for
(04:17):
caution against fire.
Steve Roe (04:33):
So just describe autumn swarming then so I mean,
UK bats in general have two mainmating strategies. So we'll
ignore the pips and the noctulesfor now and we'll talk about
these bats here which are Myotisand long-eared's. What else do
you get here?
Chris Damant (04:49):
We occasionally get Bechstein's or barbastelles,
but primarily it's Natterer's orDaubenton's.
Steve Roe (04:54):
You said that so casually Oh, we occasionally get
Bechstein's and barbastelles!
Chris Damant (04:57):
Very small because the first first Bechstein's
we caught in Buckinghamshire wasrecorded here, which is very
unusual. Subsequently, it'sfound the roosts have been found
locally in fact, but the mainspecies here is Natterer's. And
they come in the autumn togetherto breed well autumn swarming
(05:18):
where bats appear to gatherdominated by males with low
numbers of females, maybe 25% ofthe bats are females. Yeah, we
think breeding is a strongcomponent or why the bat bats
are gathering here and would bequite important for exchanging
genes in groups which wouldotherwise be isolated. Bats
(05:40):
could potentially be travelling10s of kilometres to meet here.
And come from a large area.
Steve Roe (05:49):
I mean, we say a large area John Altringham's
recorded Natterer's bats flying60-something kilometres away.
Chris Damant (05:56):
It's quite an incredible investment in energy
to come to, for a bat to travelthat distance on one night. And
there has to be a very goodreason behind it, even though we
don't fully understand it. It'scertainly dominated by males at
Cliveden generally the 75% males25% females, and it must be a
(06:19):
source of out breeding withinpopulations. But it may also be
to do with showing young batswhere hibernation sites are for
extreme environments for whenit's really cold.
Steve Roe (06:32):
And we think that because juvenile bats turn up
quite often, don't they?
Chris Damant (06:34):
Yeah, juvenile bats are a key component.
Equally, all the males that turnup generally tend to be in very
good breeding condition, whichis why we think it might be to
do with out breeding. It's hardto know exactly as much research
has been done, but we stilldon't really know.
Steve Roe (06:52):
So you're catching the bats here with a mixture of
harp traps and mist nets. Sowhen did you Well A) how did you
come across the site anddiscover it? And how long have
you been doing the work here?
Chris Damant (07:04):
Well we were invited by the National Trust to
carry out of biodiversityassessment of the estate,
probably in 2007/8. And with theassistance, the local Berkshire
and South bucks bat group, andthe North bucks back group, we
identified peaking activity latein the summer around the south
terrace. We didn't understandwhy. And the following year, we
(07:27):
came did more detailed surveys,including catching the bats. And
we picked up the male dominance,swarming activity, the chasing
of the bats that was takingplace outside the structure, and
were able to observe the factthat the bats
started gathering outside andslowly moved into the fernerys
(07:47):
and then subsequently intodeeper water tanks where a lot
of chasing was going on. Sincethen, we've been monitoring
every year. During that period,the National Trust carried out
extensive renovation works tothe south terrace which was
becoming damaged by waterlogging, and poor condition.
Much the brickwork neededrepairing. And were able to
(08:10):
carry out that work successfullyand maintain good swarming
activity throughout thatrestoration period of about five
years.
Steve Roe (08:19):
I missed how long you said, when did you say started?
Chris Damant (08:23):
I think the first plan started about 2010. Okay,
and the work wasn't started tillprobably 2015/16. It's hard to
remember that far back now. Andwe'd been doing the sort of site
monitoring every year apart fromthe first year of COVID.
Steve Roe (08:41):
So you mentioned the National Trust there. So it's a
National Trust owned estate. Butthen there's a private hotel
business inside the actual, theactual house, what's the view of
the Trust with the bats and therelationship of few guys with
the work and, and the business?
Chris Damant (08:58):
everybody has been incredibly supportive of
everything we've done from thebat point of view, once it was
identified as an important sitenationally significant, the fact
that it's built structure isequally unique. So everybody,
including the hotel and NationalTrust has been very supportive
in the work we've carried out.
programmes of work have beendesigned around the bats to
ensure their continuity ofpresence here. And it couldn't
(09:19):
have been achieved without allsupport for the individuals,
many of the project managers,the Building Surveyors, the
prophecy staff, in in, inlooking after these bats and
continuing to do so.
Steve Roe (09:35):
So I mean, on a on a typical night, when you do get
decent levels of swarmingactivity, you know how I mean
how many bats you're catchingand how many nets you using?
Chris Damant (09:44):
We usually use a harp trap at each end of the
south terrace were where thereare ferneryeither end, and
that's combined the twotriple-high mist nets as a
standard method for capturingthe bats as they enter the
structures or fly around them.
And we might catch on a goodnight anywhere from 50 to 75.
That maybe more some nights.
(10:10):
Like tonight, perhaps we don'tcatch so many. So we might catch
20 bats. The weather's not beengreat today. But hopefully we'll
catch something. What isinteresting is that swarming is
generally not very good if it'srained during the day, the bats
won't invest the energy intocoming this far. If the weather
is not hot, warm still, ifthere's rain, they will, they
(10:33):
will probably stay away. And Ithink unfortunately, that's the
night we've got in front of us.
Steve Roe (10:39):
So I mean, sets something like up to 75 bats a
night for me sounds impressive.
I'm used to trapping in the PeakDistrict where we're very lucky.
And we've got hundreds, if not1000s of underground structures.
And we suspect that swarmingtakes place at all of those on
any given night. Why have yougot so many more bats here?
Chris Damant (11:00):
It's possibly I mean, there's a geographical
element to it. And the furthersouth we'll probably have more
abundance of bats locally, we'resitting in a fantastic corridor
along the River Thames, withWoodland, steep, wooded, wooded
slopes above it. So the propertydominates the landscape here. In
(11:25):
the south, particularly aroundhere, there are very few
underground sites where bats canactually carry out the swarming
activity, right. So it'sprobably a combination of all
those factors. And the fact thatbuildings been here for so long.
The south terrace is probablythe oldest structure on the
property now originated back in1580s, I believe.
Steve Roe (11:46):
So you've got a team of people here this evening,
there's what, seven peopleyou've got here, are they? Are
they here as part of yourcompany? Are they here as
volunteers, and you know howmany people over the years have
been involved in the site andthe project?
Chris Damant (11:58):
We're very lucky we've got a dedicated number of
staff that come out every year.
Some years they come from a paidpoint of view, sometimes they
come totally voluntary capacity.
But we also get a lot ofvolunteers from local back
groups, and free people comingfrom further afield like
yourself just coming in toexperience a different type of
structure. And to learn aboutbats swarming at Cliveden, it is
(12:19):
slightly unique. And it gives aperspective on where we might
find bat swarming sites in thefuture. I often wonder whether
we overlook buildings like thisfor bat swarming and perhaps
should be looking more openly inthe future. So giving people
that experience could be veryimportant in learning where
swarming's taking place in thefuture.
Steve Roe (12:39):
And I remember when you gave this talk at the
swarming conference back in2017, and it was such an unusual
set of photographs he had everhad such an impressive building,
and photography, something thatyou've started doing. We've had
lots of photos recently beenpublished via obesity that
you've donated to them, andyou've been published on your
(12:59):
own social media. The photosthat you take are perhaps quite
unusual compared to some of thetypical ones you see, you know,
you've got no grains,tombstones, grave stones or or
guilted gates, what methods youuse into to photograph those
bats and what's the interestwith capturing bats against
unusual features likegravestones and tombstones.
Chris Damant (13:19):
I think a lot of it comes from just being lucky
to work environments where thereare unusual settings. I think in
the pitches you mentioned, thegilded Gates was here at Clifton
and the large gargoyle faces onthe Borghese Balustrade at
Cliveden, we're lucky to be ableto catch the bats. And when we
release them, there's anopportunity to photograph them
(13:40):
and perhaps showcase bats anddifferent environments that you
normally get a bat against ablack background is perhaps one
image but they've also in ournatural environment and built
environment. So it's nice to geta difference. In terms of
photography, I'm very muchlearning how to do it and have a
lot to learn yet, but it istrying to produce something
(14:01):
different to look at, besidesthe bat. And the context in
which it's found.
Steve Roe (14:08):
Was just striking to me to have such a useful set of
photos that have time quitenicely with the bats in churches
project. That's something I'vebeen involved with, isn't it the
bats and churches projects,what's the interest with the
with the church side of things?
Chris Damant (14:21):
Again, it's this built environment is it's it's
looking at nature and naturewith people and trying to find
ways of living with what peopleto live with bat's particularly
the case of churches. There havebeen various issues raised and
it's nice to put the perspectivein a positive light of how we
(14:43):
can live together. Rather thansee an issue is conflict and
photographs and imagery as partof telling that story. Great. I
do enjoy working with churchcommunities as much as working
with organisations like NationalTrust and if we can solve some
of those problems even better.
Steve Roe (15:02):
So I've should have asked at the start, what sparked
the interest of Bats then andhow long ago was that? Making
Chris Damant (15:09):
You are asking! My first experience of bats was in
you think!Surrey, was a chap called Frank
Greenaway many of you willprobably know. And I was looking
after some limekilns on behalfof the County Council. And I met
him one day and he showed mewhere some whiskered/Brandt's
happened to be roosting in thelime kilns. And during the
(15:31):
winter, he then went and took meto various sites, including West
sample caves. And the hill fortat Box Hill owners show me the
hibernating bats, and theyfascinates me ever since. And
it's only through work that I'mlost contact with Frank and then
(15:52):
came back starting to work withbats back in '98, when I set up
my own company, I was able tostart doing my own little bits
of research and been encouragedby many gifted bat ecologists,
including Phil Richardson, andI've been always grateful for
the support I've been given. AndI love coming out at night, on
(16:15):
the quiet nights and justwatching the bats and enjoying
their company.
Steve Roe (16:21):
And we were chatting earlier before we hit the record
button. We were talking aboutthe importance of training of,
you know, fresh blood, you know,the younger generation of taking
it forward. So when we get tooold and decrepit, somebody else
can do it. I mean, what, what?
Where do you think the future ofBat Conservation lies? Is it in
fresh blood? Or is it in gettingthat relationship between our
(16:45):
built environments and batsgoing? Or is it something else
altogether? What do you reckonabout that?
Chris Damant (16:50):
I think I think both isn't and it's probably a
lot more than that. I mean, I'm,I'm always grateful for all the
people who've helped me learnmore people to put up with my
daft questions, which why this?
Why that? And provide thatmentoring support through it.
And I think now, I like yourquestion of when we get old and
(17:12):
decrepit, I already feel old anddecrepit. That you can hand that
baton on and perhaps encourageother people to take it on. I
think from a business point ofview, I think it'd be need to
invest in younger people andtrust younger people to take
from the messages. I'm not quiteconvinced that I've got things
right, and our generation havegot things right. But perhaps
(17:34):
it's time to hand that baton onand let the other generations
have a go. And perhaps build onthe successes we've made, and
make it better, and hopefullycombine our lifestyles with the
natural world and get it rightfor once.
Steve Roe (17:50):
That's a nice answer.
You reminded me something thatyou said, we don't always get it
right. And we were talkingagain, before we we started this
about the success or the lack ofsuccess and mitigation. You've
said what you've done. It's thelittle things that count, isn't
it?
Chris Damant (18:06):
It is I mean, I think in the case of Cliveden,
it might be a grand site. And itmight look fantastic. But it was
the little things that helped itwas building relationships with
people it was finding simplesolutions rather than complex
ones. I think at Cliveden, wewere very lucky that we were
managed to afford find simplesolutions that avoided impacts,
(18:28):
rather than going for morecomplex solutions that would
have directly impacted on thebats. And as simple avoidance
measures by taking a little timeto complete the works. By
avoiding working on the sights.
When the bats were presents, wewere able to combine the
interests of the built structurewith the interests of bats and
preserve the swarming activityhere. And hopefully we'll carry
(18:50):
on for many, many more years.
Those simple solutions the bestand it doesn't always have to be
grand houses, why can't it bewith our homes, our environment
that we live in, rather thanjust the wealthy or the landed
estates, it can be anywhere welive. And I really would
(19:14):
encourage people to look atfinding simple solutions. And
more importantly, reportingthose solutions. Sometimes they
might be successful. Sometimesthey may not be. But the
solution is itself. It's knowingwhat is the right action to take
and telling people how youlearned about this, what went
right, what went wrong, andperhaps being a little bit more
(19:36):
honest and open about, about howyou go about the work and report
on it how things work and howthey don't work.
Steve Roe (19:42):
So in that case, Chris, would you say, the roost
awards haven't happened thisyear they've been postponed
partly through due to a lack ofinterest or a lack of time for
people to submit them. Would youencourage people to submit those
those case studies even if theyhaven't worked then?
Chris Damant (19:59):
I really would encourage people to submit case
studies to the roost awards.
Most importantly, because weneed to learn what has worked,
what hasn't worked, we need toshare and exchange that
information. We need to improveour knowledge base. And whatever
you've done, do think aboutwriting it up, do let us lose,
do let people know what ishappening, because it builds
(20:22):
that community and thatknowledge and build on how we
can help that in ourenvironment.
Steve Roe (20:33):
I mean, it's I mean, it's tricky
Chris Damant (20:35):
finding time isn't it.
Steve Roe (20:36):
It is finding time and, you know, without that
resource anyway, that I findthat whether mitigation works is
by chatting to fellow batworkers like yourself, so it's
really useful resource isn't it.
Chris Damant (20:48):
Yeah, it's exchanging information it's
communicating. If it's not aboutpeople communicating what is it
about? Yeah.
Steve Roe (20:57):
That's nice. All right, we better go see if we've
got some bats Chris Damant,thank you very much.
Chris Damant (21:02):
Thank you very much. It's a delight.
Steve Roe (21:10):
My thanks to Chris for pausing his important survey
work whilst we recorded thatinterview. If you're listening
to us on Apple podcasts orSpotify, don't forget to leave
us a five star rating or evenwrite us a review. Join us next
time from the county ofNorthamptonshire.
Welcome back to BatChat from the Bat
Conservation Trust. This seriesso far has been our most
downloaded ever. So thank youfor your continued support of
the show. If you're listening tous for the first time with the
Bat Conservation Trust, theleading charity in the United
Kingdom solely devoted to theconservation of bats and the
landscapes on which they rely,and this podcast of ours is for
(00:28):
anyone who loves bats. With eachepisode, we're bringing the
hidden lives of bats from themiddle of the night straight to
your headphones. I'm Steve Roe.
Professionally, I'm an ecologistand in my spare time, I'm a
trustee of the Bat ConservationTrust. You can join the
conversation online using thehashtag #BatChat ... that's all
one word. Before we join ourguest in a moment, we wanted to
let all of our listeners inScotland know that the Scottish
(00:49):
bat conference will be takingplace on Saturday the fourth of
March at Stirling University andwill be run as a hybrid event.
The Scottish conference providesan opportunity for both
volunteer and professionalnetworkers across Scotland to
spend time together, updatingtheir knowledge sharing best
practice, developing theirskills and catching up on the
latest bat news. The day willinclude spotlight talks from
(01:11):
various back groups acrossScotland, longer talks on
projects or sharing newknowledge and research talks.
The link to book is in the shownotes. And to all of our
listeners in the south-west ofEngland your next regional
conference is on Saturday the25th of March at the Petroc
College Tiverton campus. Again,this one day event is an
opportunity for anyoneinterested in bats from
(01:32):
hobbyists and volunteers toprofessional vertical assists to
spend time together. The dayincludes a mixture of short and
long talks on projects and achoice of practical workshops.
There will also be time forcatching up with batty friends
or making some new battyacquaintances. If you've never
attended a bat conferencebefore, I'd really encourage you
to attend. You don't need toknow anything about bats to
(01:53):
attend, but I can guaranteeyou'll learn something and come
away with new connections eitherfrom BCT or your local bat
group. The booking pages forthose two events can be reached
from our show notes. So it'stime to join this week's guest.
Back in September, I headed downto Berkshire. Sat on the banks
of the upper reaches of theriver Thames, Clivedon is an
impressive house and Estate inthe care of the National Trust
(02:15):
and sits on the edge of theChiltern hills. The garden
slopes down towards the Thamesand it's on the edge of the lawn
that you join Chris Damantwatching his surveyors check
harp traps and mist nets againstthe tall wall of the south
terrace. Above them in the housewhich is now a hotel, guests
have no idea of the work takingplace below them.
Chris Damant (02:41):
So we're sitting at Clivedon National Trust
property overlooking the Thames.
It's been a bit overcast day,but we're hoping that the bats
will arrive shortly and startswarming around the south
terrace.
The Grand Terrace above theparterre where fine dining is
taking place, and people areenjoying grand meals. But the
(03:01):
bats are about to arrive forsome close encounters we hope.
Steve Roe (03:06):
I mean, Chris says 'the grand balcony' the grand
balcony is probably as tall asmy house and that's before the
house [Cliveden] starts. Sorather an impressive structure,
isn't it?
And you can probably hear a bitof a squeaking noise behind us
that's edible dormouse.
digits.
Swarming is a little bit unique.
It's a built structure. But
Chris Damant (03:21):
Yes. Introduced by Rothschilds in the Chiltern's
many many years ago and slowlyexpanding their range
we're lucky that south terraceunderneath it has a series of
Chambers from fernery grillfoundries with their goldleaf
(03:49):
metalwork that extend intoenclosed water tanks created
many years ago because the househas previously burned down a few
times. So it was super cool. Thewater tanks are built for
(04:17):
caution against fire.
Steve Roe (04:33):
So just describe autumn swarming then so I mean,
UK bats in general have two mainmating strategies. So we'll
ignore the pips and the noctulesfor now and we'll talk about
these bats here which are Myotisand long-eared's. What else do
you get here?
Chris Damant (04:49):
We occasionally get Bechstein's or barbastelles,
but primarily it's Natterer's orDaubenton's.
Steve Roe (04:54):
You said that so casually Oh, we occasionally get
Bechstein's and barbastelles!
Chris Damant (04:57):
Very small because the first first Bechstein's
we caught in Buckinghamshire wasrecorded here, which is very
unusual. Subsequently, it'sfound the roosts have been found
locally in fact, but the mainspecies here is Natterer's. And
they come in the autumn togetherto breed well autumn swarming
(05:18):
where bats appear to gatherdominated by males with low
numbers of females, maybe 25% ofthe bats are females. Yeah, we
think breeding is a strongcomponent or why the bat bats
are gathering here and would bequite important for exchanging
genes in groups which wouldotherwise be isolated. Bats
(05:40):
could potentially be travelling10s of kilometres to meet here.
And come from a large area.
Steve Roe (05:49):
I mean, we say a large area John Altringham's
recorded Natterer's bats flying60-something kilometres away.
Chris Damant (05:56):
It's quite an incredible investment in energy
to come to, for a bat to travelthat distance on one night. And
there has to be a very goodreason behind it, even though we
don't fully understand it. It'scertainly dominated by males at
Cliveden generally the 75% males25% females, and it must be a
(06:19):
source of out breeding withinpopulations. But it may also be
to do with showing young batswhere hibernation sites are for
extreme environments for whenit's really cold.
Steve Roe (06:32):
And we think that because juvenile bats turn up
quite often, don't they?
Chris Damant (06:34):
Yeah, juvenile bats are a key component.
Equally, all the males that turnup generally tend to be in very
good breeding condition, whichis why we think it might be to
do with out breeding. It's hardto know exactly as much research
has been done, but we stilldon't really know.
Steve Roe (06:52):
So you're catching the bats here with a mixture of
harp traps and mist nets. Sowhen did you Well A) how did you
come across the site anddiscover it? And how long have
you been doing the work here?
Chris Damant (07:04):
Well we were invited by the National Trust to
carry out of biodiversityassessment of the estate,
probably in 2007/8. And with theassistance, the local Berkshire
and South bucks bat group, andthe North bucks back group, we
identified peaking activity latein the summer around the south
terrace. We didn't understandwhy. And the following year, we
(07:27):
came did more detailed surveys,including catching the bats. And
we picked up the male dominance,swarming activity, the chasing
of the bats that was takingplace outside the structure, and
were able to observe the factthat the bats
started gathering outside andslowly moved into the fernerys
(07:47):
and then subsequently intodeeper water tanks where a lot
of chasing was going on. Sincethen, we've been monitoring
every year. During that period,the National Trust carried out
extensive renovation works tothe south terrace which was
becoming damaged by waterlogging, and poor condition.
Much the brickwork neededrepairing. And were able to
(08:10):
carry out that work successfullyand maintain good swarming
activity throughout thatrestoration period of about five
years.
Steve Roe (08:19):
I missed how long you said, when did you say started?
Chris Damant (08:23):
I think the first plan started about 2010. Okay,
and the work wasn't started tillprobably 2015/16. It's hard to
remember that far back now. Andwe'd been doing the sort of site
monitoring every year apart fromthe first year of COVID.
Steve Roe (08:41):
So you mentioned the National Trust there. So it's a
National Trust owned estate. Butthen there's a private hotel
business inside the actual, theactual house, what's the view of
the Trust with the bats and therelationship of few guys with
the work and, and the business?
Chris Damant (08:58):
everybody has been incredibly supportive of
everything we've done from thebat point of view, once it was
identified as an important sitenationally significant, the fact
that it's built structure isequally unique. So everybody,
including the hotel and NationalTrust has been very supportive
in the work we've carried out.
programmes of work have beendesigned around the bats to
ensure their continuity ofpresence here. And it couldn't
(09:19):
have been achieved without allsupport for the individuals,
many of the project managers,the Building Surveyors, the
prophecy staff, in in, inlooking after these bats and
continuing to do so.
Steve Roe (09:35):
So I mean, on a on a typical night, when you do get
decent levels of swarmingactivity, you know how I mean
how many bats you're catchingand how many nets you using?
Chris Damant (09:44):
We usually use a harp trap at each end of the
south terrace were where thereare ferneryeither end, and
that's combined the twotriple-high mist nets as a
standard method for capturingthe bats as they enter the
structures or fly around them.
And we might catch on a goodnight anywhere from 50 to 75.
That maybe more some nights.
(10:10):
Like tonight, perhaps we don'tcatch so many. So we might catch
20 bats. The weather's not beengreat today. But hopefully we'll
catch something. What isinteresting is that swarming is
generally not very good if it'srained during the day, the bats
won't invest the energy intocoming this far. If the weather
is not hot, warm still, ifthere's rain, they will, they
(10:33):
will probably stay away. And Ithink unfortunately, that's the
night we've got in front of us.
Steve Roe (10:39):
So I mean, sets something like up to 75 bats a
night for me sounds impressive.
I'm used to trapping in the PeakDistrict where we're very lucky.
And we've got hundreds, if not1000s of underground structures.
And we suspect that swarmingtakes place at all of those on
any given night. Why have yougot so many more bats here?
Chris Damant (11:00):
It's possibly I mean, there's a geographical
element to it. And the furthersouth we'll probably have more
abundance of bats locally, we'resitting in a fantastic corridor
along the River Thames, withWoodland, steep, wooded, wooded
slopes above it. So the propertydominates the landscape here. In
(11:25):
the south, particularly aroundhere, there are very few
underground sites where bats canactually carry out the swarming
activity, right. So it'sprobably a combination of all
those factors. And the fact thatbuildings been here for so long.
The south terrace is probablythe oldest structure on the
property now originated back in1580s, I believe.
Steve Roe (11:46):
So you've got a team of people here this evening,
there's what, seven peopleyou've got here, are they? Are
they here as part of yourcompany? Are they here as
volunteers, and you know howmany people over the years have
been involved in the site andthe project?
Chris Damant (11:58):
We're very lucky we've got a dedicated number of
staff that come out every year.
Some years they come from a paidpoint of view, sometimes they
come totally voluntary capacity.
But we also get a lot ofvolunteers from local back
groups, and free people comingfrom further afield like
yourself just coming in toexperience a different type of
structure. And to learn aboutbats swarming at Cliveden, it is
(12:19):
slightly unique. And it gives aperspective on where we might
find bat swarming sites in thefuture. I often wonder whether
we overlook buildings like thisfor bat swarming and perhaps
should be looking more openly inthe future. So giving people
that experience could be veryimportant in learning where
swarming's taking place in thefuture.
Steve Roe (12:39):
And I remember when you gave this talk at the
swarming conference back in2017, and it was such an unusual
set of photographs he had everhad such an impressive building,
and photography, something thatyou've started doing. We've had
lots of photos recently beenpublished via obesity that
you've donated to them, andyou've been published on your
(12:59):
own social media. The photosthat you take are perhaps quite
unusual compared to some of thetypical ones you see, you know,
you've got no grains,tombstones, grave stones or or
guilted gates, what methods youuse into to photograph those
bats and what's the interestwith capturing bats against
unusual features likegravestones and tombstones.
Chris Damant (13:19):
I think a lot of it comes from just being lucky
to work environments where thereare unusual settings. I think in
the pitches you mentioned, thegilded Gates was here at Clifton
and the large gargoyle faces onthe Borghese Balustrade at
Cliveden, we're lucky to be ableto catch the bats. And when we
release them, there's anopportunity to photograph them
(13:40):
and perhaps showcase bats anddifferent environments that you
normally get a bat against ablack background is perhaps one
image but they've also in ournatural environment and built
environment. So it's nice to geta difference. In terms of
photography, I'm very muchlearning how to do it and have a
lot to learn yet, but it istrying to produce something
(14:01):
different to look at, besidesthe bat. And the context in
which it's found.
Steve Roe (14:08):
Was just striking to me to have such a useful set of
photos that have time quitenicely with the bats in churches
project. That's something I'vebeen involved with, isn't it the
bats and churches projects,what's the interest with the
with the church side of things?
Chris Damant (14:21):
Again, it's this built environment is it's it's
looking at nature and naturewith people and trying to find
ways of living with what peopleto live with bat's particularly
the case of churches. There havebeen various issues raised and
it's nice to put the perspectivein a positive light of how we
(14:43):
can live together. Rather thansee an issue is conflict and
photographs and imagery as partof telling that story. Great. I
do enjoy working with churchcommunities as much as working
with organisations like NationalTrust and if we can solve some
of those problems even better.
Steve Roe (15:02):
So I've should have asked at the start, what sparked
the interest of Bats then andhow long ago was that? Making
Chris Damant (15:09):
You are asking! My first experience of bats was in
you think!Surrey, was a chap called Frank
Greenaway many of you willprobably know. And I was looking
after some limekilns on behalfof the County Council. And I met
him one day and he showed mewhere some whiskered/Brandt's
happened to be roosting in thelime kilns. And during the
(15:31):
winter, he then went and took meto various sites, including West
sample caves. And the hill fortat Box Hill owners show me the
hibernating bats, and theyfascinates me ever since. And
it's only through work that I'mlost contact with Frank and then
(15:52):
came back starting to work withbats back in '98, when I set up
my own company, I was able tostart doing my own little bits
of research and been encouragedby many gifted bat ecologists,
including Phil Richardson, andI've been always grateful for
the support I've been given. AndI love coming out at night, on
(16:15):
the quiet nights and justwatching the bats and enjoying
their company.
Steve Roe (16:21):
And we were chatting earlier before we hit the record
button. We were talking aboutthe importance of training of,
you know, fresh blood, you know,the younger generation of taking
it forward. So when we get tooold and decrepit, somebody else
can do it. I mean, what, what?
Where do you think the future ofBat Conservation lies? Is it in
fresh blood? Or is it in gettingthat relationship between our
(16:45):
built environments and batsgoing? Or is it something else
altogether? What do you reckonabout that?
Chris Damant (16:50):
I think I think both isn't and it's probably a
lot more than that. I mean, I'm,I'm always grateful for all the
people who've helped me learnmore people to put up with my
daft questions, which why this?
Why that? And provide thatmentoring support through it.
And I think now, I like yourquestion of when we get old and
(17:12):
decrepit, I already feel old anddecrepit. That you can hand that
baton on and perhaps encourageother people to take it on. I
think from a business point ofview, I think it'd be need to
invest in younger people andtrust younger people to take
from the messages. I'm not quiteconvinced that I've got things
right, and our generation havegot things right. But perhaps
(17:34):
it's time to hand that baton onand let the other generations
have a go. And perhaps build onthe successes we've made, and
make it better, and hopefullycombine our lifestyles with the
natural world and get it rightfor once.
Steve Roe (17:50):
That's a nice answer.
You reminded me something thatyou said, we don't always get it
right. And we were talkingagain, before we we started this
about the success or the lack ofsuccess and mitigation. You've
said what you've done. It's thelittle things that count, isn't
it?
Chris Damant (18:06):
It is I mean, I think in the case of Cliveden,
it might be a grand site. And itmight look fantastic. But it was
the little things that helped itwas building relationships with
people it was finding simplesolutions rather than complex
ones. I think at Cliveden, wewere very lucky that we were
managed to afford find simplesolutions that avoided impacts,
(18:28):
rather than going for morecomplex solutions that would
have directly impacted on thebats. And as simple avoidance
measures by taking a little timeto complete the works. By
avoiding working on the sights.
When the bats were presents, wewere able to combine the
interests of the built structurewith the interests of bats and
preserve the swarming activityhere. And hopefully we'll carry
(18:50):
on for many, many more years.
Those simple solutions the bestand it doesn't always have to be
grand houses, why can't it bewith our homes, our environment
that we live in, rather thanjust the wealthy or the landed
estates, it can be anywhere welive. And I really would
(19:14):
encourage people to look atfinding simple solutions. And
more importantly, reportingthose solutions. Sometimes they
might be successful. Sometimesthey may not be. But the
solution is itself. It's knowingwhat is the right action to take
and telling people how youlearned about this, what went
right, what went wrong, andperhaps being a little bit more
(19:36):
honest and open about, about howyou go about the work and report
on it how things work and howthey don't work.
Steve Roe (19:42):
So in that case, Chris, would you say, the roost
awards haven't happened thisyear they've been postponed
partly through due to a lack ofinterest or a lack of time for
people to submit them. Would youencourage people to submit those
those case studies even if theyhaven't worked then?
Chris Damant (19:59):
I really would encourage people to submit case
studies to the roost awards.
Most importantly, because weneed to learn what has worked,
what hasn't worked, we need toshare and exchange that
information. We need to improveour knowledge base. And whatever
you've done, do think aboutwriting it up, do let us lose,
do let people know what ishappening, because it builds
(20:22):
that community and thatknowledge and build on how we
can help that in ourenvironment.
Steve Roe (20:33):
I mean, it's I mean, it's tricky
Chris Damant (20:35):
finding time isn't it.
Steve Roe (20:36):
It is finding time and, you know, without that
resource anyway, that I findthat whether mitigation works is
by chatting to fellow batworkers like yourself, so it's
really useful resource isn't it.
Chris Damant (20:48):
Yeah, it's exchanging information it's
communicating. If it's not aboutpeople communicating what is it
about? Yeah.
Steve Roe (20:57):
That's nice. All right, we better go see if we've
got some bats Chris Damant,thank you very much.
Chris Damant (21:02):
Thank you very much. It's a delight.
Steve Roe (21:10):
My thanks to Chris for pausing his important survey
work whilst we recorded thatinterview. If you're listening
to us on Apple podcasts orSpotify, don't forget to leave
us a five star rating or evenwrite us a review. Join us next
time from the county ofNorthamptonshire.
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