August 13, 2025 • 34 mins
What if the way you help your child is actually holding them back?
In this powerful conversation with Kristin Lombardi and Christine Drew, co-authors of Spectrum of Independence, we unpack the hard-to-navigate space between support and overdoing. If you’ve ever found yourself wondering, “Am I empowering or enabling?” — this episode is a must-listen.
We explore how to slowly and compassionately fade our support, why independence isn’t about going it alone, and how morning and bedtime routines can become moments of growth instead of daily battles. With real talk, gentle truth-telling, and deeply empathetic strategies, we help you make space for your child’s autonomy without sacrificing connection.
Listen now to start shifting from doing it for them to teaching them how.
You can find additional resources at parentingadhdandautism.com and Regulated Kids.com — because it’s not just about the struggles, it’s about progress, one step at a time.
Show notes and more resources at parentingadhdandautism.com/324
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/beautifully-complex--6137613/support.
In this powerful conversation with Kristin Lombardi and Christine Drew, co-authors of Spectrum of Independence, we unpack the hard-to-navigate space between support and overdoing. If you’ve ever found yourself wondering, “Am I empowering or enabling?” — this episode is a must-listen.
We explore how to slowly and compassionately fade our support, why independence isn’t about going it alone, and how morning and bedtime routines can become moments of growth instead of daily battles. With real talk, gentle truth-telling, and deeply empathetic strategies, we help you make space for your child’s autonomy without sacrificing connection.
Listen now to start shifting from doing it for them to teaching them how.
You can find additional resources at parentingadhdandautism.com and Regulated Kids.com — because it’s not just about the struggles, it’s about progress, one step at a time.
Show notes and more resources at parentingadhdandautism.com/324
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/beautifully-complex--6137613/support.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
We talk about the difference between doing it for them
and teaching, because you might have to hand over hand
prompt and it might feel like.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
Oh, I'm doing this for them.
Speaker 1 (00:11):
But if it's a handover hand prompt and you're showing
them that muscle memory and what they need to do,
then it's teaching and you can feed it. If you're
just doing it for them, it's not a matter of feeding.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
You haven't taught that anything.
Speaker 3 (00:25):
Welcome to Beautifully Complex, where we unpack what it really
means to parent neurodivergent kids with dignity and clarity. I'm
Penny Williams, and I know firsthand how tough and transformative
this journey can be. Let's dive in and discover how
to raise regulated, resilient, beautifully complex kids together. Oh and
(00:46):
if you want more support, join our free community at
hub dot beautifully complex dot life. Hi, everybody, Welcome back
to Beautifully Complex. I am so excited today to have
Kristin Lombardi and Christine Drew, the authors of Spectrum of Independence,
(01:08):
here with us to talk about all things neudivergence and independence,
which as a parent I have certainly struggled with, and
I think so many of our parents listening struggle with
how much do we help, when do we pull back,
what's enabling, what's empowering? Right, all of these sort of
difficult balances for parents to strike. So I'm hoping that
(01:32):
we'll be able to give some insights and some strategies
here to really help to clarify some of that for
our listeners. Will you all start though, let everybody know
who you are and what you do.
Speaker 1 (01:45):
My name's Kristin Lombardi. I am a BCBA. I started
my career really with early intervention and then added the
preschool services and then school age services. I have a
private practice now where I work with kids that range
in age, you know, three to the early twenties. And
along the way, I learned about inclusive higher education and
(02:08):
that has really shifted my practice to help kids prepare
for higher levels of independence as they get older, whether
it's to attend traditional college, whether to attend inclusive higher ide,
or whether it's to not go that route, but to
be able to hold down a job you know and
live as independently as possible.
Speaker 4 (02:27):
And I am doctor Christine Drew, so I have my
PhD in special education. I'm also a board certified behavior
analyst or a BCBA D doctoral level, and I started
in middle school running a behavior program. So I always
say that I have strong opinions about deodorant and that
I come by them honestly. And so I worked in
(02:49):
public school for five years while getting my master's in
ABA in special ed, and then got my PhD in
special education, started working at Auburn University, and that's where
I first encountered inclusive higher education. I provide sexuality and
relationship education for people with intellectual disability on college campuses,
which is pretty niche, pretty niche area, And like Kristin,
(03:13):
I saw this as a new opportunity for independence for
people with intellectual disability that I was not aware of.
And we started having conversations about what parents need, how
they can support their young adults, will they come to college,
and then that letting go peace and having that independence
(03:33):
for the first time, and for a lot of parents
not even realizing this was an option until their child
was eighteen twenty, and they're in these patterns of helping, helping, helping,
and college when they live on campus you can't and
how that transition is really difficult for both parents and
young adults.
Speaker 3 (03:55):
Yeah, and that's kind of where I wanted to start
with this quote from you all with the best of
intentions spent decades over helping people with developmental disabilities, which
created a culture of dependence. I think that as a
parent of a nerd vergent kid myself, and you know,
I'm very protective, like we already have the mother instinct,
(04:16):
but then you add struggles and challenges and it seems
to amplify that over protectiveness that I personally have really
struggled with. Where's the balance? And for a long time
I was far too overprotective. I certainly would say I
was enabling at times, I did too much for my
(04:39):
kid until or past the age that I should have, Right,
And so how do we help parents find that balance
and that point, like that pivot point between am I enabling?
Am I doing too much? Or am I helping them
with that britt and resilience that they need to be
(05:03):
able to be independent to get those skills to keep going. Right.
I know there's a very long answer to that, right,
But where do you want to start?
Speaker 1 (05:11):
Well, the first thing I want to say is that
idea actually came from the man who wrote our forward,
Peter Gerhart. He he did such a fantastic job with
the forward, sort of explaining this is where we came
from and then this is why we're here and where
we need to go from here. So that line is
fantastic and it came directly out of what he created
(05:35):
for us for the forward. I think a part of
the answer to your question is that we have two
chapters in the beginning that talk about parent readiness and
child readiness. So the child readiness chapter specifically talks about
different safety skills, right, and so you're right, there's this
very fine line between where do we back off and
(05:57):
where should we be involved, and that chapter goes through
you know, if your child is engaging in certain behaviors
like Piko was a big one. Yeah, give you know
that your kids going to ingest things that are not safe. No,
you should not leave them alone in the bathroom to
see how showering goes like, that's just not safe. And
then it's not that you're enabling them by being there.
(06:18):
You're there for safety reasons obviously, if you have children who,
for example, if there's like paralysis involved, again, if they
can't physically do something, you being there is not enabling.
Speaker 2 (06:31):
You need to be there to help.
Speaker 1 (06:33):
But then we're also like, if you've cleared all of
these things, then maybe your help is more on the
enabling side, right, And here's a way to fade yourself effectively.
Speaker 4 (06:45):
M M yeah, that makes sense and not saying you know,
good luck, kid, you're on your own right, right, you know,
because I think you know the college thing I was
telling you about where they come and we say by parents,
that's the ripping the band aid method that is, that
is cold turkey, and our book rather than going that route,
(07:07):
walks parents through a process of slow fading. So saying
to yourself, first how much support does my child actually
need versus how much am I just stepping in without
giving them time to do it themselves? And then also
what do I need to do to back myself out
(07:28):
slowly over time? Because the less you do, the more
your child has to do. And so it's this slow
trade of responsibility from one hundred percent parent, zero percent
child to fifty to fifty to seventy five, you know,
and that way because again you are asking your child
to do harder things than they've been expected to do before.
(07:51):
And again that band aid ripping does not teach a skill,
So we're asking you to teach and then reduce support
and then that leads to independence. The other thing I
wanted to say is that we are deeply empathetic with
parent struggles with this. You know, we talk in the
(08:12):
book about how typically developing children they go through that
I do it, I do it age where they push
you away and they say no, I do it, and
they'll shut the bathroom door and they'll you know, they
shove you out and they tell you very clearly that
they're going to do it themselves. And children with disabilities
may or may not hit that phase as well, but
(08:33):
they may hit it much later. They may not be
able to have it because again we talked about the
physical needs, the safety needs. You know, you're as a
parent stress and anxiety about you know, you have a
child with a seeder disorder, leaving them alone in the
bathroom can feel very scary. And so again there's we
(08:54):
are deeply empathetic to that. There's no shaming in the book.
There's no I don't think we even use the word
enabling in the book, you know, but it is this
idea that we see why these things happen. It is
logical that we have ended up where we are. We
focus less on that no blame, but rather okay, great,
now we know where we are, perfect, let's move forward.
(09:17):
And so that's something that parents can expect from the
book is no blame, but some hard truths about the statistics.
You know, our first chapter is a bunch of vignettes
that may feel familiar because they're based on real situations
that Kristin and I have dealt with as practitioners, and
then the stats that go with it. Right, So, unemployment
(09:39):
is very high in this population, independent living is very low,
social connections are very low. So we do kind of
start with the facts humanized and before we move into
and here's what we're going to do about it to
move forward.
Speaker 1 (09:54):
Yeah, we do also talk about how to accommodate your child. So,
for example, say they have fine motor issues and getting
the toothpaste this is always a big one. Getting the
toothpaste out of the tube, right, you teach to a point,
but if they can't get that, then you get the
automatic toothpaste dispenser that they just have to hold their
toothbrush under, right. And now if that eliminates you from
(10:17):
needing to be in the bathroom, you're out and now
they can be independent. So it's not always just you
have to learn this skill. Sometimes it's a matter of
is there a way to make this skill easier for
you while still accomplishing the same goal. Right, We're still
brushing our teeth at the end of the day. It's
not like we're going to skip that.
Speaker 3 (10:36):
Yeah, Like, my kid has dysgraphia, and so using technology
is just part of his life. Right. We can't change
the dysgraphia. We've done many years of OT and all
the things, and it's just part of his brain wiring,
and so we find other ways to be successful despite that. Right.
(10:57):
And you're talking about something that I always teach parents too,
which is to set up strategies where you can scaffold
the support, but you can fade yourself out of the middle. Right,
So you might still need to help your kid get
the toothpaste on the toothbrush, even with the automatic dispenser,
but at some point they're going to be able to
do that on their own, and you can remove yourself
(11:20):
from that where. I think instinctually, as parents, we just go, Okay,
what do I need to do? Right? You know, we
don't think about how do I structure this so that
at some point I don't have to be part of
this equation to have success in the end.
Speaker 1 (11:34):
Yes, And we talk about the difference between doing it
for them and teaching, because you might have to hand
over hand prompt and it might feel like, oh, I'm
doing this for them. But if it's a handover hand
prompt and you're showing them that the muscle memory and
what they need to do, then it's teaching and you
can feed it. If you're just doing it for them,
(11:56):
it's not a matter of feeding.
Speaker 2 (11:57):
You haven't taught them anything exactly.
Speaker 3 (12:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (12:00):
We also talk a lot about thinking can something go
with them, So an automatic toothpaste dispenser, the things that
they have in every hotel I've been in in the
last two years, those little push button attached to the wall,
soap and shampoo dispensers that can go with you to college,
that can go with you to your own apartment. Mom
(12:22):
and Dad's voice in your ear cannot necessarily go from
place to place with you. And then the other thing
we talk about is again very logical. Toothbrushing happens in
the morning before school, when everyone is stressed to the
max and just trying to make sure they get on
the bus or to the bus stop or whatever, or
(12:44):
right before bed, when everyone is dragging themselves to the
finish line. And so it becomes again very tempting and
very logical to just be like, okay, to save the morning.
I'm going to put the toothpaste on the toothbrush for
you to save the morning. And so we do things
like recommending that if a routine is happening at a
(13:05):
very stressful time or a rough time of day, move
it to another time right, start working on it on
the weekends when there isn't this time pressure, you know,
figuring out ways to work on it to where you
are not teaching when you are stressed, when there is
a time crunch, When when when we want to stack
the deck in your favor and in your child's favor.
(13:26):
And so we walk parents through strategies some ideas of
how to do that.
Speaker 3 (13:32):
I love the phrase save of the morning. I've lived
that so many times I can't count.
Speaker 4 (13:37):
Right, And again, you know a lot of that. We
had some vignettes where they have multiple kids in the
family and balancing the needs of the different kids, and
that is something that again we are deeply empathetic too.
And I think it's hopefully parents will find we had
parent readers who helped us along the way, and hopefully
they find the examples meaningful and they can connect with them.
(14:02):
You know, again, we've seen these situations and we tried
to make sure that these are real life things that
we're presenting. We're not pie in the sky. So you know,
you wake up at six in the morning perfectly refreshed
and rested, You have twenty minutes of meditation and then
a cup of coffee, and then you wake your child.
Speaker 1 (14:20):
At one point, we wanted the subtitle to be Calm
Mornings and Peaceful Evenings because so much of what we
work on in this book has to do with like
the morning routine and the evening routine.
Speaker 3 (14:32):
They're such a struggle, right, and.
Speaker 1 (14:33):
Nobody want No parent wants to start their day as
a struggle and send their kid off to school that
way out of ten right, and nobody wants to end
their day like that either. It's one of the most
common things I hear from parents is we really just
want a peaceful, like half an hour to hang out
with our kid before they go to bed. Yeah, and
so when everything's a battle to get ready for bed.
(14:55):
Nobody gets that.
Speaker 3 (14:57):
It's not a win for anybody at that point, right,
you know, our mornings used to be so stressful that
one day I literally backed into the side of my
husband's car in our driveway leaving for school because my
brain was just gone by that point. It was frid
He had just started a different work routine where he
was home on Fridays, and I just backed out like
(15:19):
I always do because I had no mental clarity anymore,
went right into the side of it. So it's a
real thing. It's a real thing, and it's so hard
for us and our kids for the rest of the day,
Like this is coloring the entire day when things are
so hard in the mornings, and it's not what anybody wants.
(15:44):
If you've been listening for a while, you're familiar with
my back to School Prep Week, where I sat neurodivergent
kids and their families up for success right when the
school year starts. There's another podcast that will help you
navigate the rest of the school year. It's called Opportunity Gap,
and it's all about special education. Let's be real. All
(16:05):
those acronyms alone. I EP five oh four FBA BP
can be overwhelming. All you want is for your kid
to have the opportunity for success. Right. You'll hear from
special educators, child psychologists, and other learning experts who know
their stuff and give you realistic advocacy tools. I listened
(16:28):
to Opportunity Gap and I was blown away. Julian Savedra
and his guests break it down in simple terms, highlight
where to focus your energy, and give you simple steps
to advocate efficiently. So if you've ever walked out of
a school meeting wondering what just happened, go search for
(16:49):
Opportunity Gap in your podcast app. That's Opportunity Gap. How
do we figure out like when when is it time
to start teaching independent skills? I don't think there's an age,
(17:12):
especially when we're talking about developmental disabilities, right, So how
does a parent figure out for their specific individual kid,
when should I start working on some of these skills
that they're gonna need later.
Speaker 1 (17:27):
We didn't put specific ages in the book just for
like what you said, because there's devopmental disabilities and if
somebody maybe could have started earlier but they didn't, that's okay,
so you start now. It's not like you missed the window.
I would say most of the stuff that's in here
depending on the kid, you know, realistically, like a three
year old is not going to shower themselves and brush
(17:49):
their teeth themselves. They're three, They're going to need more assistance.
You're not really fading yourself, you know, maybe five six
the ideas in the book though, and how to fade
your voice so that you're nagging and asking them to
do things sixteen times. Like really, even for the younger parents,
it's good for them to read that, Like Christine said,
that first chapter that talks about all the stats and
(18:11):
like this is where this ends up if you're not
encouraging the independence at home. I think the earlier parent
reads that on some level the better right that Okay,
this is what we have coming up. This is what
we should be working on for sure. And then a
lot of it is so personalized depending on the child.
But that is sort of where those early chapters come in.
Does your child have these prerec skills, do they meet
(18:34):
the safety requirements? And then you as a parent, are
you ready? You know, are you we talk about in
the book, like if your house is under construction and
you just had your third kid, This is not the
time to start this right now, Like, let yourself get
settled and then and then take a look at it.
If it's a big transition time like we're you know,
summer's ending in two weeks and then we're starting school,
(18:57):
Like maybe you want to start it when school starts.
Maybe want to get settled into school. But these are
all things to think about, both for your child and
for yourself as a parent, as a family. Is this
the right time versus that there's like a herd and fast,
like at seven years old, you should be doing this.
Speaker 3 (19:13):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (19:13):
Well, and the other thing we talk about in thinking
about the college experience, so most inclusive higher ed programs
will admit people until they're twenty four. And so if
you think about their coming to college and maybe their
parent has been doing things for them for twenty four years,
that's eighteen years of missed opportunities, right, if we're talking
(19:38):
about toothbrushing, that's twice a day times eighteen years. Yeah,
and so it's these opportunities that go by, you know,
what is it? The days are long and the years
are short. So you know, these parents are they're on autopilot.
They are you know, busy dealing with the school, is
dealing with the speech therapist, dealing with dealing, dealing, dealing, dealing,
(19:59):
and I think these things kind of get kicked further
and further down. And again, I teach sex ed, so
that's another one that gets just kind of kicked all
the way down the road until the last second, for sure.
And so in terms of when to start, it's thinking
about one would typically developing child be expected to do
(20:20):
these things, and maybe we start, maybe it takes them
longer to get independent. That's totally fine, but they have
these opportunities to practice, and every year that you don't,
that's a year's worth of missed opportunities.
Speaker 3 (20:37):
Mm hmm. Yeah. And I you know, one thing that
I learned early on was to just be really intentional
about either being transparent with processes that I was going
through or with not just doing it myself because it
was easier and it saved me time because I'm very
(20:57):
type A and I'm like, get it done right. The
shoes are the kitchen floor, Okay, I'm going to go
put them away. That's so much easier than calling my
kid in calling his attention to the fact that the
shoes are in the kitchen, and shoes probably don't go
in the kitchen, and what might happen if mom trips
over the shoes and where do they get? Right, Like,
there's so much that can have to go into that.
(21:17):
But if we start earlier. There's just a lot in
our day to day as parents that we're not really
vocal about. We don't narrate all these things that go
on in our heads that if we were more open
and narrating that stuff, we're teaching skills by doing that
in front of our kids. And it's not necessarily adding
a lot of time to your day or anything like that. Right,
(21:40):
And so that was one thing that I learned to
do just to try to impart some like problem solving
skills or planning and organization skills. Right.
Speaker 1 (21:49):
Christine was talking about the like the I do at fees.
You know, I had raising a toddler right now, and
it is intense because he wants to do everything himself,
and he wants to do it all by himself. And
it's more than just a queue. I mean, it literally
becomes a battle if I'm trying to do it for
him versus letting him do it himself. And he's not
(22:11):
even two and a half yet, and we're going through this.
And when you don't have that, when you have a
child who was quite content for you to be putting
your shoes on for them at six years old, it's
a lot harder for you to be like, I shouldn't
be doing this anymore. And you have to train yourself
to be like, well, I need to back off because
(22:31):
you're not getting that natural cue to back off.
Speaker 3 (22:35):
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And so we're looking at development, right,
and skills our kids have in safety issues, what is
a reasonable expectation? Right? Is there anything else that goes
into figuring out when to start stepping back a little
bit to foster that independence?
Speaker 4 (22:56):
I mean, I think it's just this idea of what
would you're typically developing child be doing, and that is
something that you know, even things like chores, right, So
putting our plate in the sink, you know, because we
have a vignette for the fading where the dad is
thinking to himself, Wow, we had our older kids start
(23:17):
setting the table for dinner when they were six seven
years old, and our eleven year old who has autism
has never had to do that, and oh wow, we've
we're a little behind compared to what we our expectations were,
and so I think part of it is that and
not getting caught up in what they're ready for and
(23:39):
more thinking what do they need? So they need to
take care of their teeth. That is a skill that
they will take with them. And we, you know, we
talk a lot about these are skills that the school
can't address in the same way that parents can at home.
And you know, school is teaching things that are important,
of course, but when was the last time you put
(24:01):
your name on your paper at the top next to
a little box that says name, right, versus the last
time you brush your teeth? Hopefully for everyone it was
this morning, yes, And so you know, it's this idea
of thinking when will they use it, when should they
be using it, and kind of not getting caught up
in that worry about when or you know, there's no
(24:25):
time like the present. And if they can pass these
safety things, of course you're going to check their work
on their teeth, right, just like you would with your
typically developing child, you know, or kids that come out
of the bathroom with wet hands but don't smell like soap,
and you're like, right, I know, something didn't go right
here right, So we're not saying hands off. You know,
(24:46):
it's totally your kid's responsibility. You're still going to be
checking and making sure and all that on making sure
they don't put two inches of toothpaste on the toothbrush.
But it is maybe less about this when they're ready
and more about it's time is time to be doing this.
Speaker 1 (25:03):
It's a really tricky question because I've had cases where
I've said to a parent, like, why isn't your son
getting himself dressed in the morning, But I know that
your son is capable getting self dressed in the morning,
and they'll come back and say to me, well, but
I spoke to my friend who has a neurotypical kid
that's eight, and she's still dressing the kid. And I'm like, okay,
(25:26):
your friend shouldn't.
Speaker 2 (25:27):
So I don't even.
Speaker 1 (25:28):
Know where do you go with that your friends shouldn't
be ripped for a neurotypical eight year old, the kid
can is probably should be dressing herself. And that you
found that one person to try to compare to to
justify the fact that you're still dressing him at seven,
even though I know we can dress himself. So I
think you do need to be careful because there's just
all types of situations out there right in all sorts
(25:51):
of different parenting beliefs right now. And some of it
is common sense. Some of it is looking at a
developmental checklist and saying, like knowing that, no, my child
at three years old shouldn't be able to zip up
their jacket if that's maybe a little bit of an
early skill for that age. You know, at six years old, yeah,
my kids should be able to in theory take their
(26:11):
clothes off and put their clothes on, you know, to
get ready for school, depending again on motor planning issues.
Speaker 2 (26:17):
I think the other thing that's.
Speaker 1 (26:18):
Really important to keep in mind is that when you
have a child that has any sort of a delay,
but especially if there's a motor delay, you need that
many more repetitions to learn the skill. So when Christine
was talking about, like, we have these eighteen years and
if you didn't do it, then you miss eighteen years.
A neurotypical kid might learn. My son learned to put
(26:42):
his flip his jacket over in like two days. I
was like, oh my god, Like I've had students where
we've worked on that for months. You know, and so
the earlier you start, the more breathing room you have
to be able to teach these things and have the
time and not have this pressure of oh, my goodness,
they're going to be graduating and we're trying to get
them into a program or whatever it is.
Speaker 3 (27:04):
Yeah, and that pressure tends to make it a lot
harder to learn skills, right, yes.
Speaker 4 (27:09):
Yes, well, And we also talk about how these independent
living skills give young adults and adults the biggest menu
of opportunities. So, you know, if you can shower yourself,
your independent living options are wide open. Right. If you
can toilet, if you can shower. If you can't do
(27:31):
those things, then your options become more and more and
more and more limited. And so you know, we consider
these as kind of skills that open the door to
this wide world of opportunity. We also talk about how,
you know, there are families that make the choice together
with their young adult to live at home. That is
(27:52):
totally fine. There is a difference between making the choice right,
I'm going to stay home. I'm going to help my family.
I'm a part of my community, you know, I'm part
of my church. All these things I work, I volunteer
versus I can't go anywhere else because I don't have
the skills. Yeah, and so it's this this piece of choice.
And when you don't have the independent living skills, then
(28:15):
your choices become incredibly limited to almost non existent. So
you know, that's kind of our idea of just opening
up as many choices as possible, and that then, you know,
leaves them open for inclusive higher ed living in an apartment,
living with roommates, living with family, living in a little
casita separate from the main house on their parents' property.
(28:37):
There are a lot of arrangements, but again it's this
option of choice. If we can't shower, then we're pretty
limited and where we can go and what we can
do for living.
Speaker 3 (28:48):
I love thinking about choice too in this context because
we do want choice, and we want our kids to
have choices right. We want them to be able to
accomplish whatever they want to accomplish, and part of that
is teaching a lot of skills, but also knowing when
to step back right and let them at least lead
(29:09):
the way. I think so often we feel like our
job as a parent is to decide what the path
and the journey is going to look like and who
they are and all of these things, and like, no,
we're just there to sort of keep them on some
sort of path, right and teach the skills that are necessary.
But it's about who they are and what they want
(29:32):
from their life, and this is giving them the opportunity
to have those choices. I love thinking about it that way.
It's really really helpful. I think it's empowering.
Speaker 4 (29:43):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (29:43):
Peter talks about the forward about how he has this
very unique way of doing his laundry, and he said,
nobly does laundry like this, but because I am responsible
for my own laundry, I have the freedom to do
it this way. So not only does the independence help
of all the things that Christine just said, but also
(30:05):
it does it increases somebody, a person's freedom, you know,
to make the decisions for themselves.
Speaker 4 (30:10):
Maybe you want to.
Speaker 1 (30:11):
Wash your feet before you wash, you know, your back.
When you're in control of that, you get to make
that decision.
Speaker 3 (30:19):
Yeah. Yeah, I know. There's so much more to talk
about here, and I hope that everyone listening will pick
up spectrum of independence and read through it and be
helped along this process. They'll learn so much more that
We've just sort of opened the door a little bit
here in this conversation. Will you tell everybody where they
(30:39):
can find you online, where they might be able to
connect to learn more from you or to work with you.
Speaker 1 (30:45):
So the book is on Amazon and also on Guilford's site,
and then the book has its own website, Spectrum of
Independence dot com.
Speaker 2 (30:54):
We have a.
Speaker 1 (30:55):
Pdf that's available on the website that sort of gives
a quick, like ten page overview of the different levels
of independence and what early independence would look like versus
more advanced independence that people can get for free if
they go to the website. Nice, I believe you can
contact us through that website. And then also I have
(31:15):
a private practice website, zeal Beehavior dot com that people
could go to as well.
Speaker 2 (31:22):
And we are very hopeful that by.
Speaker 1 (31:25):
August will be in a position where if somebody would
like to connect to get some guidance on working.
Speaker 2 (31:30):
Through the book, that we would be able to offer.
Speaker 3 (31:33):
That awesome anything to add Christine Kristin cover it All,
She's got it.
Speaker 4 (31:39):
I am at Auburn University, so I have an Auburn email.
But I'm happy to, you know, to speak with people.
I know that you know, Auburn University has an independent
living program or an inclusive high ED program called Eagles.
So I'm a part of that, and Eagles has wonderful
social media presence and a lot of great information and
so well, you know, if independent living an inclusive high
(32:02):
red is of interest to parents, and yeah, we'd be
happy to speak with folks, and hopefully by August we
have something worked out for that.
Speaker 3 (32:10):
Awesome And I'm going to link everything up that you
just mentioned in the show notes and our listeners can
find that at PARENTINGADHD and autism dot com Slash three
two four for episode three hundred and twenty four. I
just want to thank you all for the work that
you're doing, the help that you're providing to parents and
in turn to neurodivergent individuals, and just like being so
(32:34):
open with your wisdom and coming here and spending your
time to share that and to really help folks. That's
really amazing work that you're doing, and I appreciate it.
Speaker 4 (32:44):
Well, thank you so much. We really appreciate your time
and your audience's time. I know parents' time is super
valuable and we talk about that in the book a lot. Yeah,
and so any time that they give to This is
greatly appreciated by someone who works an inclusive high ed
you know, in by practitioners, and so we appreciate all
the work that parents do. It's so much that y'all
(33:05):
are doing. So we appreciate y'all so much.
Speaker 3 (33:08):
Awesome.
Speaker 1 (33:09):
Yes, we appreciate you having us on here so we
could get the word out a little bit. More about
the book about inclusive I read about different opportunities you know,
that the kids may have as they increase their independence
and move out of that CA to twelve system and
into post secondary life.
Speaker 3 (33:27):
Yeah, thank you so much. I will see everybody next time.
Take good care. I see you. You're doing hard and
meaningful work and you don't have to do it alone.
If you found this episode helpful, share it with someone
who needs it and leave a quick review so others
can find this support too. When you're ready for next steps,
(33:51):
the Regulated Kid's Project is here with the tools, coaching,
and community to help you raise a more regulated, resilient child.
Get more info at regulatkids dot com
We talk about the difference between doing it for them
and teaching, because you might have to hand over hand
prompt and it might feel like.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
Oh, I'm doing this for them.
Speaker 1 (00:11):
But if it's a handover hand prompt and you're showing
them that muscle memory and what they need to do,
then it's teaching and you can feed it. If you're
just doing it for them, it's not a matter of feeding.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
You haven't taught that anything.
Speaker 3 (00:25):
Welcome to Beautifully Complex, where we unpack what it really
means to parent neurodivergent kids with dignity and clarity. I'm
Penny Williams, and I know firsthand how tough and transformative
this journey can be. Let's dive in and discover how
to raise regulated, resilient, beautifully complex kids together. Oh and
(00:46):
if you want more support, join our free community at
hub dot beautifully complex dot life. Hi, everybody, Welcome back
to Beautifully Complex. I am so excited today to have
Kristin Lombardi and Christine Drew, the authors of Spectrum of Independence,
(01:08):
here with us to talk about all things neudivergence and independence,
which as a parent I have certainly struggled with, and
I think so many of our parents listening struggle with
how much do we help, when do we pull back,
what's enabling, what's empowering? Right, all of these sort of
difficult balances for parents to strike. So I'm hoping that
(01:32):
we'll be able to give some insights and some strategies
here to really help to clarify some of that for
our listeners. Will you all start though, let everybody know
who you are and what you do.
Speaker 1 (01:45):
My name's Kristin Lombardi. I am a BCBA. I started
my career really with early intervention and then added the
preschool services and then school age services. I have a
private practice now where I work with kids that range
in age, you know, three to the early twenties. And
along the way, I learned about inclusive higher education and
(02:08):
that has really shifted my practice to help kids prepare
for higher levels of independence as they get older, whether
it's to attend traditional college, whether to attend inclusive higher ide,
or whether it's to not go that route, but to
be able to hold down a job you know and
live as independently as possible.
Speaker 4 (02:27):
And I am doctor Christine Drew, so I have my
PhD in special education. I'm also a board certified behavior
analyst or a BCBA D doctoral level, and I started
in middle school running a behavior program. So I always
say that I have strong opinions about deodorant and that
I come by them honestly. And so I worked in
(02:49):
public school for five years while getting my master's in
ABA in special ed, and then got my PhD in
special education, started working at Auburn University, and that's where
I first encountered inclusive higher education. I provide sexuality and
relationship education for people with intellectual disability on college campuses,
which is pretty niche, pretty niche area, And like Kristin,
(03:13):
I saw this as a new opportunity for independence for
people with intellectual disability that I was not aware of.
And we started having conversations about what parents need, how
they can support their young adults, will they come to college,
and then that letting go peace and having that independence
(03:33):
for the first time, and for a lot of parents
not even realizing this was an option until their child
was eighteen twenty, and they're in these patterns of helping, helping, helping,
and college when they live on campus you can't and
how that transition is really difficult for both parents and
young adults.
Speaker 3 (03:55):
Yeah, and that's kind of where I wanted to start
with this quote from you all with the best of
intentions spent decades over helping people with developmental disabilities, which
created a culture of dependence. I think that as a
parent of a nerd vergent kid myself, and you know,
I'm very protective, like we already have the mother instinct,
(04:16):
but then you add struggles and challenges and it seems
to amplify that over protectiveness that I personally have really
struggled with. Where's the balance? And for a long time
I was far too overprotective. I certainly would say I
was enabling at times, I did too much for my
(04:39):
kid until or past the age that I should have, Right,
And so how do we help parents find that balance
and that point, like that pivot point between am I enabling?
Am I doing too much? Or am I helping them
with that britt and resilience that they need to be
(05:03):
able to be independent to get those skills to keep going. Right.
I know there's a very long answer to that, right,
But where do you want to start?
Speaker 1 (05:11):
Well, the first thing I want to say is that
idea actually came from the man who wrote our forward,
Peter Gerhart. He he did such a fantastic job with
the forward, sort of explaining this is where we came
from and then this is why we're here and where
we need to go from here. So that line is
fantastic and it came directly out of what he created
(05:35):
for us for the forward. I think a part of
the answer to your question is that we have two
chapters in the beginning that talk about parent readiness and
child readiness. So the child readiness chapter specifically talks about
different safety skills, right, and so you're right, there's this
very fine line between where do we back off and
(05:57):
where should we be involved, and that chapter goes through
you know, if your child is engaging in certain behaviors
like Piko was a big one. Yeah, give you know
that your kids going to ingest things that are not safe. No,
you should not leave them alone in the bathroom to
see how showering goes like, that's just not safe. And
then it's not that you're enabling them by being there.
(06:18):
You're there for safety reasons obviously, if you have children who,
for example, if there's like paralysis involved, again, if they
can't physically do something, you being there is not enabling.
Speaker 2 (06:31):
You need to be there to help.
Speaker 1 (06:33):
But then we're also like, if you've cleared all of
these things, then maybe your help is more on the
enabling side, right, And here's a way to fade yourself effectively.
Speaker 4 (06:45):
M M yeah, that makes sense and not saying you know,
good luck, kid, you're on your own right, right, you know,
because I think you know the college thing I was
telling you about where they come and we say by parents,
that's the ripping the band aid method that is, that
is cold turkey, and our book rather than going that route,
(07:07):
walks parents through a process of slow fading. So saying
to yourself, first how much support does my child actually
need versus how much am I just stepping in without
giving them time to do it themselves? And then also
what do I need to do to back myself out
(07:28):
slowly over time? Because the less you do, the more
your child has to do. And so it's this slow
trade of responsibility from one hundred percent parent, zero percent
child to fifty to fifty to seventy five, you know,
and that way because again you are asking your child
to do harder things than they've been expected to do before.
(07:51):
And again that band aid ripping does not teach a skill,
So we're asking you to teach and then reduce support
and then that leads to independence. The other thing I
wanted to say is that we are deeply empathetic with
parent struggles with this. You know, we talk in the
(08:12):
book about how typically developing children they go through that
I do it, I do it age where they push
you away and they say no, I do it, and
they'll shut the bathroom door and they'll you know, they
shove you out and they tell you very clearly that
they're going to do it themselves. And children with disabilities
may or may not hit that phase as well, but
(08:33):
they may hit it much later. They may not be
able to have it because again we talked about the
physical needs, the safety needs. You know, you're as a
parent stress and anxiety about you know, you have a
child with a seeder disorder, leaving them alone in the
bathroom can feel very scary. And so again there's we
(08:54):
are deeply empathetic to that. There's no shaming in the book.
There's no I don't think we even use the word
enabling in the book, you know, but it is this
idea that we see why these things happen. It is
logical that we have ended up where we are. We
focus less on that no blame, but rather okay, great,
now we know where we are, perfect, let's move forward.
(09:17):
And so that's something that parents can expect from the
book is no blame, but some hard truths about the statistics.
You know, our first chapter is a bunch of vignettes
that may feel familiar because they're based on real situations
that Kristin and I have dealt with as practitioners, and
then the stats that go with it. Right, So, unemployment
(09:39):
is very high in this population, independent living is very low,
social connections are very low. So we do kind of
start with the facts humanized and before we move into
and here's what we're going to do about it to
move forward.
Speaker 1 (09:54):
Yeah, we do also talk about how to accommodate your child. So,
for example, say they have fine motor issues and getting
the toothpaste this is always a big one. Getting the
toothpaste out of the tube, right, you teach to a point,
but if they can't get that, then you get the
automatic toothpaste dispenser that they just have to hold their
toothbrush under, right. And now if that eliminates you from
(10:17):
needing to be in the bathroom, you're out and now
they can be independent. So it's not always just you
have to learn this skill. Sometimes it's a matter of
is there a way to make this skill easier for
you while still accomplishing the same goal. Right, We're still
brushing our teeth at the end of the day. It's
not like we're going to skip that.
Speaker 3 (10:36):
Yeah, Like, my kid has dysgraphia, and so using technology
is just part of his life. Right. We can't change
the dysgraphia. We've done many years of OT and all
the things, and it's just part of his brain wiring,
and so we find other ways to be successful despite that. Right.
(10:57):
And you're talking about something that I always teach parents too,
which is to set up strategies where you can scaffold
the support, but you can fade yourself out of the middle. Right,
So you might still need to help your kid get
the toothpaste on the toothbrush, even with the automatic dispenser,
but at some point they're going to be able to
do that on their own, and you can remove yourself
(11:20):
from that where. I think instinctually, as parents, we just go, Okay,
what do I need to do? Right? You know, we
don't think about how do I structure this so that
at some point I don't have to be part of
this equation to have success in the end.
Speaker 1 (11:34):
Yes, And we talk about the difference between doing it
for them and teaching, because you might have to hand
over hand prompt and it might feel like, oh, I'm
doing this for them. But if it's a handover hand
prompt and you're showing them that the muscle memory and
what they need to do, then it's teaching and you
can feed it. If you're just doing it for them,
(11:56):
it's not a matter of feeding.
Speaker 2 (11:57):
You haven't taught them anything exactly.
Speaker 3 (12:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (12:00):
We also talk a lot about thinking can something go
with them, So an automatic toothpaste dispenser, the things that
they have in every hotel I've been in in the
last two years, those little push button attached to the wall,
soap and shampoo dispensers that can go with you to college,
that can go with you to your own apartment. Mom
(12:22):
and Dad's voice in your ear cannot necessarily go from
place to place with you. And then the other thing
we talk about is again very logical. Toothbrushing happens in
the morning before school, when everyone is stressed to the
max and just trying to make sure they get on
the bus or to the bus stop or whatever, or
(12:44):
right before bed, when everyone is dragging themselves to the
finish line. And so it becomes again very tempting and
very logical to just be like, okay, to save the morning.
I'm going to put the toothpaste on the toothbrush for
you to save the morning. And so we do things
like recommending that if a routine is happening at a
(13:05):
very stressful time or a rough time of day, move
it to another time right, start working on it on
the weekends when there isn't this time pressure, you know,
figuring out ways to work on it to where you
are not teaching when you are stressed, when there is
a time crunch, When when when we want to stack
the deck in your favor and in your child's favor.
(13:26):
And so we walk parents through strategies some ideas of
how to do that.
Speaker 3 (13:32):
I love the phrase save of the morning. I've lived
that so many times I can't count.
Speaker 4 (13:37):
Right, And again, you know a lot of that. We
had some vignettes where they have multiple kids in the
family and balancing the needs of the different kids, and
that is something that again we are deeply empathetic too.
And I think it's hopefully parents will find we had
parent readers who helped us along the way, and hopefully
they find the examples meaningful and they can connect with them.
(14:02):
You know, again, we've seen these situations and we tried
to make sure that these are real life things that
we're presenting. We're not pie in the sky. So you know,
you wake up at six in the morning perfectly refreshed
and rested, You have twenty minutes of meditation and then
a cup of coffee, and then you wake your child.
Speaker 1 (14:20):
At one point, we wanted the subtitle to be Calm
Mornings and Peaceful Evenings because so much of what we
work on in this book has to do with like
the morning routine and the evening routine.
Speaker 3 (14:32):
They're such a struggle, right, and.
Speaker 1 (14:33):
Nobody want No parent wants to start their day as
a struggle and send their kid off to school that
way out of ten right, and nobody wants to end
their day like that either. It's one of the most
common things I hear from parents is we really just
want a peaceful, like half an hour to hang out
with our kid before they go to bed. Yeah, and
so when everything's a battle to get ready for bed.
(14:55):
Nobody gets that.
Speaker 3 (14:57):
It's not a win for anybody at that point, right,
you know, our mornings used to be so stressful that
one day I literally backed into the side of my
husband's car in our driveway leaving for school because my
brain was just gone by that point. It was frid
He had just started a different work routine where he
was home on Fridays, and I just backed out like
(15:19):
I always do because I had no mental clarity anymore,
went right into the side of it. So it's a
real thing. It's a real thing, and it's so hard
for us and our kids for the rest of the day,
Like this is coloring the entire day when things are
so hard in the mornings, and it's not what anybody wants.
(15:44):
If you've been listening for a while, you're familiar with
my back to School Prep Week, where I sat neurodivergent
kids and their families up for success right when the
school year starts. There's another podcast that will help you
navigate the rest of the school year. It's called Opportunity Gap,
and it's all about special education. Let's be real. All
(16:05):
those acronyms alone. I EP five oh four FBA BP
can be overwhelming. All you want is for your kid
to have the opportunity for success. Right. You'll hear from
special educators, child psychologists, and other learning experts who know
their stuff and give you realistic advocacy tools. I listened
(16:28):
to Opportunity Gap and I was blown away. Julian Savedra
and his guests break it down in simple terms, highlight
where to focus your energy, and give you simple steps
to advocate efficiently. So if you've ever walked out of
a school meeting wondering what just happened, go search for
(16:49):
Opportunity Gap in your podcast app. That's Opportunity Gap. How
do we figure out like when when is it time
to start teaching independent skills? I don't think there's an age,
(17:12):
especially when we're talking about developmental disabilities, right, So how
does a parent figure out for their specific individual kid,
when should I start working on some of these skills
that they're gonna need later.
Speaker 1 (17:27):
We didn't put specific ages in the book just for
like what you said, because there's devopmental disabilities and if
somebody maybe could have started earlier but they didn't, that's okay,
so you start now. It's not like you missed the window.
I would say most of the stuff that's in here
depending on the kid, you know, realistically, like a three
year old is not going to shower themselves and brush
(17:49):
their teeth themselves. They're three, They're going to need more assistance.
You're not really fading yourself, you know, maybe five six
the ideas in the book though, and how to fade
your voice so that you're nagging and asking them to
do things sixteen times. Like really, even for the younger parents,
it's good for them to read that, Like Christine said,
that first chapter that talks about all the stats and
(18:11):
like this is where this ends up if you're not
encouraging the independence at home. I think the earlier parent
reads that on some level the better right that Okay,
this is what we have coming up. This is what
we should be working on for sure. And then a
lot of it is so personalized depending on the child.
But that is sort of where those early chapters come in.
Does your child have these prerec skills, do they meet
(18:34):
the safety requirements? And then you as a parent, are
you ready? You know, are you we talk about in
the book, like if your house is under construction and
you just had your third kid, This is not the
time to start this right now, Like, let yourself get
settled and then and then take a look at it.
If it's a big transition time like we're you know,
summer's ending in two weeks and then we're starting school,
(18:57):
Like maybe you want to start it when school starts.
Maybe want to get settled into school. But these are
all things to think about, both for your child and
for yourself as a parent, as a family. Is this
the right time versus that there's like a herd and fast,
like at seven years old, you should be doing this.
Speaker 3 (19:13):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (19:13):
Well, and the other thing we talk about in thinking
about the college experience, so most inclusive higher ed programs
will admit people until they're twenty four. And so if
you think about their coming to college and maybe their
parent has been doing things for them for twenty four years,
that's eighteen years of missed opportunities, right, if we're talking
(19:38):
about toothbrushing, that's twice a day times eighteen years. Yeah,
and so it's these opportunities that go by, you know,
what is it? The days are long and the years
are short. So you know, these parents are they're on autopilot.
They are you know, busy dealing with the school, is
dealing with the speech therapist, dealing with dealing, dealing, dealing, dealing,
(19:59):
and I think these things kind of get kicked further
and further down. And again, I teach sex ed, so
that's another one that gets just kind of kicked all
the way down the road until the last second, for sure.
And so in terms of when to start, it's thinking
about one would typically developing child be expected to do
(20:20):
these things, and maybe we start, maybe it takes them
longer to get independent. That's totally fine, but they have
these opportunities to practice, and every year that you don't,
that's a year's worth of missed opportunities.
Speaker 3 (20:37):
Mm hmm. Yeah. And I you know, one thing that
I learned early on was to just be really intentional
about either being transparent with processes that I was going
through or with not just doing it myself because it
was easier and it saved me time because I'm very
(20:57):
type A and I'm like, get it done right. The
shoes are the kitchen floor, Okay, I'm going to go
put them away. That's so much easier than calling my
kid in calling his attention to the fact that the
shoes are in the kitchen, and shoes probably don't go
in the kitchen, and what might happen if mom trips
over the shoes and where do they get? Right, Like,
there's so much that can have to go into that.
(21:17):
But if we start earlier. There's just a lot in
our day to day as parents that we're not really
vocal about. We don't narrate all these things that go
on in our heads that if we were more open
and narrating that stuff, we're teaching skills by doing that
in front of our kids. And it's not necessarily adding
a lot of time to your day or anything like that. Right,
(21:40):
And so that was one thing that I learned to
do just to try to impart some like problem solving
skills or planning and organization skills. Right.
Speaker 1 (21:49):
Christine was talking about the like the I do at fees.
You know, I had raising a toddler right now, and
it is intense because he wants to do everything himself,
and he wants to do it all by himself. And
it's more than just a queue. I mean, it literally
becomes a battle if I'm trying to do it for
him versus letting him do it himself. And he's not
(22:11):
even two and a half yet, and we're going through this.
And when you don't have that, when you have a
child who was quite content for you to be putting
your shoes on for them at six years old, it's
a lot harder for you to be like, I shouldn't
be doing this anymore. And you have to train yourself
to be like, well, I need to back off because
(22:31):
you're not getting that natural cue to back off.
Speaker 3 (22:35):
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And so we're looking at development, right,
and skills our kids have in safety issues, what is
a reasonable expectation? Right? Is there anything else that goes
into figuring out when to start stepping back a little
bit to foster that independence?
Speaker 4 (22:56):
I mean, I think it's just this idea of what
would you're typically developing child be doing, and that is
something that you know, even things like chores, right, So
putting our plate in the sink, you know, because we
have a vignette for the fading where the dad is
thinking to himself, Wow, we had our older kids start
(23:17):
setting the table for dinner when they were six seven
years old, and our eleven year old who has autism
has never had to do that, and oh wow, we've
we're a little behind compared to what we our expectations were,
and so I think part of it is that and
not getting caught up in what they're ready for and
(23:39):
more thinking what do they need? So they need to
take care of their teeth. That is a skill that
they will take with them. And we, you know, we
talk a lot about these are skills that the school
can't address in the same way that parents can at home.
And you know, school is teaching things that are important,
of course, but when was the last time you put
(24:01):
your name on your paper at the top next to
a little box that says name, right, versus the last
time you brush your teeth? Hopefully for everyone it was
this morning, yes, And so you know, it's this idea
of thinking when will they use it, when should they
be using it, and kind of not getting caught up
in that worry about when or you know, there's no
(24:25):
time like the present. And if they can pass these
safety things, of course you're going to check their work
on their teeth, right, just like you would with your
typically developing child, you know, or kids that come out
of the bathroom with wet hands but don't smell like soap,
and you're like, right, I know, something didn't go right
here right, So we're not saying hands off. You know,
(24:46):
it's totally your kid's responsibility. You're still going to be
checking and making sure and all that on making sure
they don't put two inches of toothpaste on the toothbrush.
But it is maybe less about this when they're ready
and more about it's time is time to be doing this.
Speaker 1 (25:03):
It's a really tricky question because I've had cases where
I've said to a parent, like, why isn't your son
getting himself dressed in the morning, But I know that
your son is capable getting self dressed in the morning,
and they'll come back and say to me, well, but
I spoke to my friend who has a neurotypical kid
that's eight, and she's still dressing the kid. And I'm like, okay,
(25:26):
your friend shouldn't.
Speaker 2 (25:27):
So I don't even.
Speaker 1 (25:28):
Know where do you go with that your friends shouldn't
be ripped for a neurotypical eight year old, the kid
can is probably should be dressing herself. And that you
found that one person to try to compare to to
justify the fact that you're still dressing him at seven,
even though I know we can dress himself. So I
think you do need to be careful because there's just
all types of situations out there right in all sorts
(25:51):
of different parenting beliefs right now. And some of it
is common sense. Some of it is looking at a
developmental checklist and saying, like knowing that, no, my child
at three years old shouldn't be able to zip up
their jacket if that's maybe a little bit of an
early skill for that age. You know, at six years old, yeah,
my kids should be able to in theory take their
(26:11):
clothes off and put their clothes on, you know, to
get ready for school, depending again on motor planning issues.
Speaker 2 (26:17):
I think the other thing that's.
Speaker 1 (26:18):
Really important to keep in mind is that when you
have a child that has any sort of a delay,
but especially if there's a motor delay, you need that
many more repetitions to learn the skill. So when Christine
was talking about, like, we have these eighteen years and
if you didn't do it, then you miss eighteen years.
A neurotypical kid might learn. My son learned to put
(26:42):
his flip his jacket over in like two days. I
was like, oh my god, Like I've had students where
we've worked on that for months. You know, and so
the earlier you start, the more breathing room you have
to be able to teach these things and have the
time and not have this pressure of oh, my goodness,
they're going to be graduating and we're trying to get
them into a program or whatever it is.
Speaker 3 (27:04):
Yeah, and that pressure tends to make it a lot
harder to learn skills, right, yes.
Speaker 4 (27:09):
Yes, well, And we also talk about how these independent
living skills give young adults and adults the biggest menu
of opportunities. So, you know, if you can shower yourself,
your independent living options are wide open. Right. If you
can toilet, if you can shower. If you can't do
(27:31):
those things, then your options become more and more and
more and more limited. And so you know, we consider
these as kind of skills that open the door to
this wide world of opportunity. We also talk about how,
you know, there are families that make the choice together
with their young adult to live at home. That is
(27:52):
totally fine. There is a difference between making the choice right,
I'm going to stay home. I'm going to help my family.
I'm a part of my community, you know, I'm part
of my church. All these things I work, I volunteer
versus I can't go anywhere else because I don't have
the skills. Yeah, and so it's this this piece of choice.
And when you don't have the independent living skills, then
(28:15):
your choices become incredibly limited to almost non existent. So
you know, that's kind of our idea of just opening
up as many choices as possible, and that then, you know,
leaves them open for inclusive higher ed living in an apartment,
living with roommates, living with family, living in a little
casita separate from the main house on their parents' property.
(28:37):
There are a lot of arrangements, but again it's this
option of choice. If we can't shower, then we're pretty
limited and where we can go and what we can
do for living.
Speaker 3 (28:48):
I love thinking about choice too in this context because
we do want choice, and we want our kids to
have choices right. We want them to be able to
accomplish whatever they want to accomplish, and part of that
is teaching a lot of skills, but also knowing when
to step back right and let them at least lead
(29:09):
the way. I think so often we feel like our
job as a parent is to decide what the path
and the journey is going to look like and who
they are and all of these things, and like, no,
we're just there to sort of keep them on some
sort of path, right and teach the skills that are necessary.
But it's about who they are and what they want
(29:32):
from their life, and this is giving them the opportunity
to have those choices. I love thinking about it that way.
It's really really helpful. I think it's empowering.
Speaker 4 (29:43):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (29:43):
Peter talks about the forward about how he has this
very unique way of doing his laundry, and he said,
nobly does laundry like this, but because I am responsible
for my own laundry, I have the freedom to do
it this way. So not only does the independence help
of all the things that Christine just said, but also
(30:05):
it does it increases somebody, a person's freedom, you know,
to make the decisions for themselves.
Speaker 4 (30:10):
Maybe you want to.
Speaker 1 (30:11):
Wash your feet before you wash, you know, your back.
When you're in control of that, you get to make
that decision.
Speaker 3 (30:19):
Yeah. Yeah, I know. There's so much more to talk
about here, and I hope that everyone listening will pick
up spectrum of independence and read through it and be
helped along this process. They'll learn so much more that
We've just sort of opened the door a little bit
here in this conversation. Will you tell everybody where they
(30:39):
can find you online, where they might be able to
connect to learn more from you or to work with you.
Speaker 1 (30:45):
So the book is on Amazon and also on Guilford's site,
and then the book has its own website, Spectrum of
Independence dot com.
Speaker 2 (30:54):
We have a.
Speaker 1 (30:55):
Pdf that's available on the website that sort of gives
a quick, like ten page overview of the different levels
of independence and what early independence would look like versus
more advanced independence that people can get for free if
they go to the website. Nice, I believe you can
contact us through that website. And then also I have
(31:15):
a private practice website, zeal Beehavior dot com that people
could go to as well.
Speaker 2 (31:22):
And we are very hopeful that by.
Speaker 1 (31:25):
August will be in a position where if somebody would
like to connect to get some guidance on working.
Speaker 2 (31:30):
Through the book, that we would be able to offer.
Speaker 3 (31:33):
That awesome anything to add Christine Kristin cover it All,
She's got it.
Speaker 4 (31:39):
I am at Auburn University, so I have an Auburn email.
But I'm happy to, you know, to speak with people.
I know that you know, Auburn University has an independent
living program or an inclusive high ED program called Eagles.
So I'm a part of that, and Eagles has wonderful
social media presence and a lot of great information and
so well, you know, if independent living an inclusive high
(32:02):
red is of interest to parents, and yeah, we'd be
happy to speak with folks, and hopefully by August we
have something worked out for that.
Speaker 3 (32:10):
Awesome And I'm going to link everything up that you
just mentioned in the show notes and our listeners can
find that at PARENTINGADHD and autism dot com Slash three
two four for episode three hundred and twenty four. I
just want to thank you all for the work that
you're doing, the help that you're providing to parents and
in turn to neurodivergent individuals, and just like being so
(32:34):
open with your wisdom and coming here and spending your
time to share that and to really help folks. That's
really amazing work that you're doing, and I appreciate it.
Speaker 4 (32:44):
Well, thank you so much. We really appreciate your time
and your audience's time. I know parents' time is super
valuable and we talk about that in the book a lot. Yeah,
and so any time that they give to This is
greatly appreciated by someone who works an inclusive high ed
you know, in by practitioners, and so we appreciate all
the work that parents do. It's so much that y'all
(33:05):
are doing. So we appreciate y'all so much.
Speaker 3 (33:08):
Awesome.
Speaker 1 (33:09):
Yes, we appreciate you having us on here so we
could get the word out a little bit. More about
the book about inclusive I read about different opportunities you know,
that the kids may have as they increase their independence
and move out of that CA to twelve system and
into post secondary life.
Speaker 3 (33:27):
Yeah, thank you so much. I will see everybody next time.
Take good care. I see you. You're doing hard and
meaningful work and you don't have to do it alone.
If you found this episode helpful, share it with someone
who needs it and leave a quick review so others
can find this support too. When you're ready for next steps,
(33:51):
the Regulated Kid's Project is here with the tools, coaching,
and community to help you raise a more regulated, resilient child.
Get more info at regulatkids dot com
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