November 12, 2025 • 47 mins
Launching a neurodivergent young adult rarely looks like what we imagined. It’s not a straight line toward independence but rather a winding journey filled with scaffolding, support, and deep personal growth for both parent and child. In this heartfelt conversation with my friend Debbie Reber of Full Tilt Parenting, we get real about what it means to companion our kids into adulthood, not push them off a cliff toward “independence.”
We talk about the delicate dance of helping without overstepping, the invisible scaffolding we still build behind the scenes, and how to honor their timeline while protecting our own nervous systems. We also unpack what it feels like when society tells us we’re doing “too much,” and how to trust the long game of growth, connection, and mutual respect.
If you’ve ever wondered where to draw the line between support and enabling — or how to be ok yourself while your young adult finds their footing — this conversation will bring relief, validation, and renewed hope.
Take a deep breath, pour your coffee, and listen in for part two of this beautifully real dialogue on parenting through the young adult years. Part 1 is on Full Tilt Parenting at https://tiltparenting.com/session474.
You can find additional resources at parentingadhdandautism.com and Regulated Kids.com — because it’s not just about the struggles, it’s about progress, one step at a time.
Show notes and more resources at https://parentingadhdandautism.com/334
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/beautifully-complex--6137613/support.
We talk about the delicate dance of helping without overstepping, the invisible scaffolding we still build behind the scenes, and how to honor their timeline while protecting our own nervous systems. We also unpack what it feels like when society tells us we’re doing “too much,” and how to trust the long game of growth, connection, and mutual respect.
If you’ve ever wondered where to draw the line between support and enabling — or how to be ok yourself while your young adult finds their footing — this conversation will bring relief, validation, and renewed hope.
Take a deep breath, pour your coffee, and listen in for part two of this beautifully real dialogue on parenting through the young adult years. Part 1 is on Full Tilt Parenting at https://tiltparenting.com/session474.
You can find additional resources at parentingadhdandautism.com and Regulated Kids.com — because it’s not just about the struggles, it’s about progress, one step at a time.
Show notes and more resources at https://parentingadhdandautism.com/334
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/beautifully-complex--6137613/support.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
Hi there, friends, I have a really special episode for
you today. This is part two of a two part
crossover with my friend Debbie Reeber, a full tilt parenting podcast.
In part one, which aired earlier this week over on
Debbie's show, episode four seventy four, we talked about what
it really means to launch a neurodivergent young adult, how
(00:25):
our definitions of launching have evolved over the years, and
the surprising ways that our kids still needs catholding and
support from us. We also dive into the difference between
independence and interdependence and what that actually looks like in
practice in real life. This conversation was like therapy for me.
(00:46):
Y'all honest, real, validating. There is no perfection here. Debbie
and I are showing you our real life experience. So
if you haven't listened to part one yet, cause this
one and go check it out first, then come back
here for Part two for more of our real life conversation.
(01:07):
Debbie and I talk about boundaries, burnout, and what it
looks like to support our kids without losing ourselves in
the process. We share the behind the scenes support we're
still giving our young adults, the judgment that we have
sometimes faced for that, and how we're learning to trust
that long game, the big picture, even when progress looks
(01:30):
so different. So let's get into it. Welcome to Beautifully Complex,
where we unpack what it really means to parent neurodivergent
kids with dignity and clarity. I'm Penny Williams, and I
know firsthand how tough and transformative this journey can be.
Let's dive in and discover how to raise regulated, resilient,
(01:52):
beautifully complex kids together. Oh and if you want more support,
join our free community at hub dot beautifully complex dot life.
Hey everyone, welcome back to Beautifully Complex. I am so
thrilled to have wie reeber A full till parenting here
(02:14):
with me. We started our conversation on launching which we
both use air quotes if you're listening around launching our
neurodivergent young Adults over on Debbie's podcast, so you can
go over there and look up episode four seventy four,
(02:34):
which I will also link in the show notes for you.
That is part one of this conversation, and we are
now going to dive into part two talking about scaffolding
how to scaffold support while also teaching the skills, the
life skills that our kids are going to need to
be more independent, and also talk about ourselves, our own
(02:57):
nervous system, our own boundaries, our own needs, because they
are just as important. I was listening to a podcast
the other day and they were saying, once you have kids,
nothing else matters, and I just cringed. It was like, no,
we're trying to stop that message. Debbie and I have
both been working on trying to stop that message. And
(03:19):
so you matter too, just as much. You deserve to
feel good, and when you feel good, you can help
your kid feel good, which then helps them to do good.
So we're going to talk some about that too as
we navigate young adulthood for our kids. Dewie, do you
(03:39):
want to start talking about what scaffolding support means to
you and then maybe what it looks like now that
your kid is in their twenties. Yes.
Speaker 2 (03:54):
So I always like the visual of the scaffolding like
that goes up when there's a building right now under
construction or they're doing some repair work, that you build
up these supports to keep everybody safe while the improvements
are being made, and scaffolding then once things are starting
to look better you know, we slowly take down the scaffolding,
(04:18):
and so that's just such a good visual. So that's
what I think of it as with my kiddo. But yeah,
so scaffolding is kind of like it's helping our kids learn,
whether it's skills or on their own personal growth journey.
We talked in the last episode about you know, this
idea of independence and those things, but whatever it is
(04:39):
that they're working on to help them kind of progress
so they don't get stalled and kind of stall out.
It's finding ways to help them with our support, make small,
meaningful steps that they can feel sense of agency over,
but they also have us there in case things, you know,
(05:01):
go off the rails. Actually, one of the terms that
I really enjoyed lately is this guy Chris Baum. He
wrote this book called Finding the Magic in middle School.
I don't know if you read it. It's really good book,
but he talks about this idea of companioning, and companioning
is this idea that like, our kids are on this
epic adventure and you think about like a sherpa who
(05:22):
goes along with someone who's climbing a mountain and they're there,
it's still the person's adventure. But the sharp is there
to like carry some supplies, and like if they're going
to step off the trail and gravely injure themselves, the
sharp is there to support. And so that's being a companion.
And I think scaffoldings like related to that. It's kind
of remembering that this is our kid's journey and they
(05:44):
have to have agency and control over their journey, and
they also can't. We can't just like being like, Okay,
you're on your own good luck. So we want to
always be kind of finding that just right challenge, like
where is there an opportunity, Where is our little window
here where there's a skill, a fledgling skill that we
(06:05):
can kind of push along. So that's scaffolding. But I
don't remember the second part of the question.
Speaker 1 (06:11):
I'm going to add to that first, and then we'll
go to the second part again. Because I have often
used the analogy of a sharpa myself. Oh how funny,
And I love that. And I love that you added
the safety piece to scaffolding, because I too think about scaffolding.
We have built our own house before, we've had scaffolding
and used it, and I often picture that. But I
(06:33):
didn't necessarily think about how it keeps people safe. It
keeps the workers safe who are on it, It keeps
people who might be underneath it safe, and we know
how important that felt safety is. And so I love
that you put those two pieces together. And the sherpa, Yeah,
like they have experience with it, they've done this before,
(06:53):
they know where the pitfalls might be. They can give
you some guidance, but like it's still your journey. You're
still having that experience and you're still saying kind of
what works for you and what you want and where
you want to go. And I love that. Yeah, And
the term companioning is fantastic.
Speaker 2 (07:09):
It's a good one. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:10):
Yeah, So what does scaffolding look like? Maybe now for
you guys or since transitioning more from like teen in
high school into other things.
Speaker 2 (07:22):
Well, there's a lot more scaffolding that I realized there
would be at this point, you know, going back to
in our first first part of this conversation, we were
talking about our expectations for what launching would look like
versus what it actually does look like. And so I
think when it comes to scaffolding, and we don't have
(07:44):
to like I'm not going to like beat that in
analogy to death and you know, I'll stop talking about buildings,
but you guys anologies. But you know, I think there
is a sense that some of the scaffolding's going to
come down, like when our kids are kind of moving
forward and it'll be kind of maybe less dirty and
(08:04):
they're you know, it's just going to be it's going
to look and feel different. And so in reality, there's
still been a lot of scaffolding for us. It's hard
sometimes to find that just right balance. Again, going back
to this idea of individuation or if you have kids
who have such a strong desire for autonomy, so a
(08:24):
kid with more of a demand I don't like the
term pathological demand avoidance, but rather persistent desire or drive
for autonomy. When you have those kinds of kids who
really want to be doing things on their own and
push back against demands, the scaffolding becomes really tricky to
(08:44):
navigate with a young adult because it has to be
much more collaborative, right. I think when our kids are younger,
there's a lot of behind the scenes scaffolding our kids
don't even know about, right, sure, we're just building it
all the time.
Speaker 1 (08:59):
We're taking to building a backup, and we're just always
like monitoring.
Speaker 2 (09:03):
When our kids are older, I think they have to
be a lot more involved in understanding what you're doing,
what are they comfortable with, where do they specifically see
or feel that they need support, and then what are
we willing to do to support. So the scaffolding is
like this very collaborative process, and I think we're still
scaffolding on all of the things. We're scaffolding on life
(09:27):
skills right even you know, I'll just give you an example.
The first semester that my kid was away. You know,
there's no there's a food plan there, but there's no
dinner served on Saturday and Sunday nights in the residence hall.
So I'm like, and my kid is in the UK,
(09:49):
So I'm like, getting you know, the app on my
phone texting with my kid. What would you like because
you know, there's conversion and there's like putting in a credit,
like there's a lot of like high the scenes stuff,
and so I would like get my kids order, then
I would do the app from here in the Netherlands
to the UK, and then I'd give my kid's cell
(10:10):
phone number. I'm like, and then i'd have to like
text like, this is the code for the delivery person,
what's your order?
Speaker 1 (10:16):
They're out of this.
Speaker 2 (10:17):
Like it was so much back and forth, right, but
I wanted my child to eat, and at the time
it was too heavy of a lift, right, yeah, between
doing all of the other life skill development stuff. So
but then after that first semester over Christmas break last year,
I was like, I think we need to put that
up on your phone and I'm going to show you
(10:38):
how to do it. And so the first time that
my kid ordered, you know, back at school in the
spring semester, I got a note like where should I
get food from? I'm like, I don't know, what are
you hungry for? But my child like did it and
kept me updated. I did this, What do I do? Now?
How do I should I add a tip?
Speaker 1 (10:57):
You know? All those questions?
Speaker 2 (10:58):
Ye, And now well, here we are like a year later,
and I don't even know what my child eats on
a Saturday or Sunday night, but I know they're eating.
So that's a little example of what it looks like.
So it's all the things, but it's maybe kind of bigger,
more independent things that I didn't realize we're going to
(11:20):
be coming up.
Speaker 1 (11:22):
And I can hear parents saying you shouldn't be doing
that for your kid, right, But what I'm hearing from
you is that you offloaded some of that load and
you sort of faded out support. So you figured out
(11:43):
that they couldn't do everything from the very beginning, and
you took a piece of that that you could help with,
with the intent from the beginning that it would go
back on their plate at some point when they had
the capacity and the ability to manage it successfully, whereas
in the first semester that might have sent them off
(12:07):
the rails on a Saturday evening, right, like totally, oh
my gosh, I can't even manage this. So it's we're
never saying that we are going to forever do something
for our kids. We're never saying that they're never going
to learn. We're just honoring their timetable, right, and we're
honoring where they are and what they need in those moments.
(12:28):
And Yeah, it stressed me out thinking of hearing you
explain that process of all the things you were doing.
But like, I can totally see that there have been
times where that would be something that I would need
to do and take it on because we've figured out
where that line is between doing too much for them
(12:51):
and doing what they actually need.
Speaker 2 (12:53):
I think, yeah, although the line is always changing of course, right,
and it's lines that we didn't even know were They're like,
I didn't realize that like getting food on a Saturday
night was going to be something that I was going
to have to like consider support around and work with
my kid around, right, So I think that's one of
(13:14):
the things too. And I'd love to hear what kind
of things you've found you've had to scaffold for that
you weren't anticipating, because I literally didn't give that a
moment's thought, like, oh, I got to teach my kid
how to like what oer takeout, right, But there's so
many little things like that. There's so many demands, especially
(13:36):
you know, my kid al is in a university setting
in a different country with a whole different bureaucratic system.
That tax is my executive function. I'm like, oh, my goodness, Like,
I didn't predict all of this stuff, so it's just
an ongoing surprise, like, Oh, this is a whole other thing.
Let's figure out a plan for this.
Speaker 1 (13:56):
M h. It's an ever moving target. I got okay
a long time ago, or at least accepted that it's
an ever moving target. And when we finally seemed to
get some headway on something, something else will come in
that need its scaffolding and support and attention. Yeah, when
one of my kids went off to college, I got
(14:17):
a text the first time they were doing laundry, how
do I do this? And I'm like, well, you did
laundry at home. Yeah, they're big posters on the wall.
But there was such a habit of just asking mom right,
and so we had to work on pulling back on
(14:37):
that and doing like you just said, like, okay, well,
what do you think? Is the first step? Like I
learned not to start problem solving, which is my nature.
My first instinct is to solve and fix right away
and do it for whoever is in front of me,
stranger kid, anyone. Like. That's just why I'm wired. I've
(14:58):
really had to learn how to say, Okay, what do
you think? Yeah? Right, and not give an answer with
my nerds virgin kid, there have been just a lot
of things that I kind of sit in on. So
if he needs a doctor's appointment, he can bring his
current phone we'll sit together. At first, I'll say, you know,
(15:21):
these are the things you need to say or ask for,
and then I'll be here if I'm needed to sort
of walk through that more or to offer guidance. I'm
still the driver. The last time he went to the doctor,
she called me, are you his driver? I'm like, thanks
for reducing me to nothing. But she was not awesome anyway.
(15:44):
She was really berating him about being twenty two and
not taking care of himself and is not our regular doctor,
so she didn't know. But still it wasn't okay anyway.
So you know, I still have to always take that role.
Because we don't have public transport where we are. You can't,
like he'd have to walk two miles just to grab
(16:04):
a bus, and the bus only goes very limited places,
so we just don't have that opportunity. And so because
I could be flexible and take that on, he doesn't
go to a lot of places. He works with his
dad now, so dad just you know, they go to
work together, they come home together, which is a relief
to me because when he had a different job, I
had to take him and pick him up and stuff too,
(16:25):
and it took a lot of my time, but just
knowing that there are some things that just are my
role right now until he gets more comfortable driving and
gets his license. That's a role that I'm taking on.
And I'm okay with that because I know that he
just needs more time to be comfortable with driving. He's
anxious about it. But there are other things where I'm like, Okay,
(16:49):
why don't I fill out that paperwork for you? Because
he has his graphia, his handwriting was really difficult, and
he'll say, no, I need to learn how to do this,
and he will do it himself, and he will slowed
down enough that someone can read it and do what
he needs to do, and it surprises me. And I
think we talked in part one about sometimes they surprise us.
(17:09):
Sometimes we're ready to give more support than they need,
and it is so crucial to get their buy in
at this age. We have to ask what do you need?
What do you want? I was just answering a parent
email before we got on about my kid is struggling
in college. It's year three, they're passing, but I think
(17:32):
they need to drop one of their classes. It's just
too much, it's too much stress. Should I go over
there and make all this stuff happen. And my first
response was, what does your kid want? We have to
bring them into these conversations, right if we don't, the
pressure of us trying to manage it is just regulating,
(17:54):
and then they're going to be less successful. They're going
to tune us out right, They're not going to take
our car, We're not going to answer our tags. They're
not gonna want us to be part of it.
Speaker 2 (18:03):
Were you in my apartment today?
Speaker 1 (18:05):
Because yeah, oh but I've been there, right, like I've
so been in these situations too. Yeah, yeah, I mean.
Speaker 2 (18:15):
And what's tricky about that scenario you just share the
email that you were just responding to, is like we
go talk to our kids and they may say, no,
actually I can do this, I want to do this,
and we might be like, oh gosh, I don't you know.
We might see this is not necessarily going to play
out the way that you think it is, and we
(18:36):
want to pre rescue them. We want to like swoop
in and prevent the failure, the setback, whatever, because we
also have experienced significant setbacks. But our kids or see
what seen what happens when something doesn't go well for them,
and we want to prevent that from happening. So it
is really tricky when our kids have a vision, and
(18:57):
but I agree, we have to ask them and it
has to be on their terms when they're young adults.
And if they decide no, I think I can do this.
I don't want to drop the class. I can do
the thing, then our job as the companion the ship
is like, Okay, I hear this is what you want
to do, and I respect that this is your journey.
(19:18):
Let me know how I can help. And that's really
the best that we can do. Like we can't. If
we try to do more than that, we are going
to potentially damage our relationship with them because we're going
to become this controlling person. And that is not what
a young adult who's individuating needs or wants in their world.
Speaker 1 (19:38):
Yeah. Yeah, and it's not what they need because if
they don't figure out how to work it out themselves,
they are not learning those skills. They are not able.
Right when we jump in and try to rescue, we're
preventing growth. Yeah. I was listening to an episode of
The Good Life Project this morning with doctor Lisa Damore
(19:59):
and she was re iterating this. They were talking about teens.
They had a couple parents of young adults who were
in college on asking questions, and she's, you know, one
of the worst things we do for our kids is
we rescue and we try to fix and we try
to prevent, and growth only happens through struggle, through difficult things,
(20:20):
through figuring it out yourself. Yeah, I want to return
to this idea of letting our kids fail. And again,
I'm like air quotes over here. I can't say it
without doing it. Yeah, because so many parents will ask
me that question, do I let them fail? Is this
the time I let them fail? And I would love
to get your opinion on letting kids fail. I certainly
(20:44):
have a strong opinion about it, but I want to
hear yours first and then I'll share.
Speaker 2 (20:49):
Yeah, and I and I have to give a shout
out to jes Leahy and her book The Gift of Failure,
which she writes a lot about this. Yeah. I mean,
I guess I hadn't thought of that language letting kids fail.
I don't think it's failure like I think failure is
the wrong word. I think just what you said, this
is our kid's journey, full stop.
Speaker 1 (21:11):
Right.
Speaker 2 (21:12):
Of course, we want our kids to find their way, Like,
we want that so much. We love these kids so much,
we would do anything for them, and we want them
to create lives of purpose and meaning so they can
feel fulfilled. Right, That's it. That's the big dream, the goal.
So we want that. And then we have a kid
(21:33):
who is making choices or is like kind of progressing
or doing things that we can see, Oh, this is
not going to lead to that out We think this
is not going to lead to that outcome that we
want for this child. First of all, we can't predict
the future. We have no idea what this kid's journey
is meant to look like, or what is going to
be the thing that really clicks for them if it
(21:55):
clicks right, and it is completely out of our hands,
it's just it's out of our hands. So yeah, so
I would say we're not letting our kids fail. We
are honoring that they're on their own journey, that we
get to be this important person in their life, that
(22:16):
we get to be in relationship with this complex, this
beautifully complex human who's on an incredible journey and we
get to like live this life together. And it's messy
and it's all of those things, But it's their journey.
We're on our journey too. We're in it every day.
We're still you know, we're still doing our own work, right,
(22:38):
We're still in it. Yes, Yeah, I would say we're
not letting our kids fail. We're honoring their journey and
we're showing up to support in ways that we can.
Speaker 1 (22:46):
Yeah. And while failure is a teaching tool, pulling back
all support and allowing it to happen in that way
is not a teaching tool and is not going to
lead to growth. I always think about what is the
message we're sending. Because my kid taught me years ago
that he hears what I say in a different way.
(23:09):
So like when I said let's sit down and do
your homework together, I think we should do it together.
He heard Mom doesn't think I can do this. Yeah,
And that was huge, Like that really stuck in my
gut and asking that question. Then if I just say, okay,
you're on your own, I give up your kid, may
(23:32):
hear my mom just gave up on me. Yeah, my
parent doesn't care? Yeah, right, And that is so damaging.
So being really conscientious of the message that they're receiving,
whether or not it's the one we intend or send, right,
and then you know we can honor that they don't
want as much help from us. We can say, Okay,
(23:55):
we're giving too much help. It's enabling. We need to
pull back, but we need to fade support while still
providing opportunities for success. Yeah, just letting a kid fall
on their ass and fail and like be in this
pit of dispair like that helps no one. That term
drives me nuts, and it is a traditional way of
(24:17):
doing things. You know, if kids are really not into school,
a lot of people tell you, well, just let them
figure it out, let them fail, then they'll then they'll
learn their lesson and they'll do better. Yeah, but that's
not always true.
Speaker 2 (24:29):
Well, it's definitely not true with neurodivergent kids too, right,
And I think that that is, you know, there's a
lot of societal pressure to pull back supports quickly and
that you know you shouldn't be doing all this. You're
just like, you know, you mentioned that experience with a
doctor who was braining your kiddo, Like it's really hard
because there are lots of messages like that.
Speaker 1 (25:03):
I think this is a really good segue into talking
about what we can like legally do for our young
adults and what we can't because when they turn eighteen,
at least here in the United States, you can't advocate
on their behalf anymore in a lot of places, and
it's really tough.
Speaker 2 (25:24):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (25:24):
I think I mentioned in our part one episode on
my kid's eighteenth birthday, he quit therapy. He was still
in high school. He still needed my sport, he still
needed therapy, but he didn't see the value in it anymore,
and he knew it was his choice, and he pulled
back right and in a lot of ways, to me,
(25:45):
it was almost like the floor fell out from under me,
like all the things that I was able to help
with and being like in therapy sessions with him, which
I could still do if he invited me in rate,
but you know, his therapist couldn't come to me and
talk to me about stuff anymore. You know, they have
to make their own doctor's appointments, They have to do
all these things that I feel like we should start
(26:07):
preparing them for earlier, or preparing ourselves for earlier. Were
there shockers for you or things that kind of knocked
you off course.
Speaker 2 (26:16):
Yeah, I think, yeah, just kind of having different relationships
with the therapists was one thing for sure. I think,
you know, we moved here and had to establish care
for my kiddo, you know, with both kind of general
you know, practitioner, but also with mental health supports here
in the Netherlands, and those are meetings that I've always
(26:40):
my kid has wanted me as part of those meetings
because I'm the one with like the you know, I
know the whole history, right and I can provide the
dates and when this happened and when this med was,
you know, like all of those details. And you know,
I very clearly was disinvited, like I should. We showed
up to like a zoom meeting together and the people
(27:04):
that my kid was meeting with were like, yeah, so
we don't want you here. This is not your this
is for your kid, this is not for you. And
I was like okay, and I asked my child. I
was like, are you cool? And I was like yeah,
I guess that's okay. And I just had to let
it all go and I was I knew that it
wasn't going to be accurate reporting and that there were
(27:24):
going to be a lot of questions, and I was
just like, yeah, this isn't my thing. Anymore. And that
was really hard because I think behind the scenes and
you're probably I mean, I don't want to speak for you,
but my hunches, you're doing a lot of this stuff too.
Like there's a lot of like behind the scenes, like
coordination of care and like making sure prescriptions are sent
(27:45):
in for the right things, and like there's a lot
of moving pieces and kind of being the manager of
someone else's health care journey. If it's more complex, it's
a lot. And so to be kind of kicked out
of that.
Speaker 1 (28:00):
Was like who that was?
Speaker 2 (28:03):
It was hard, and I also had to realize like ultimately, yeah,
like this is stuff, This is important stuff, and this
is stuff, especially if there's medications involved. Our kids need
to eventually learn how to call in a prescription or
how to even have the wherewithal to be like, oh,
(28:23):
I'm running low. I should make sure that I have,
you know, more meds being called into the pharmacy. Like
those are important skills. And I think for me, the
stakes have felt so high, like well, we can't run
out of this thing, or like, oh, hell's gonna break loose.
So yeah, I've just like micro managed some of those things.
(28:44):
And so that is an area of growth for me
that I'm still very much working on.
Speaker 1 (28:52):
Mm hmmm. Yeah. When my kid did start therapy again
about a year ago, maybe nine months or a year ago,
decided on it zone he could use it. He had
to make the call right and schedule, and he wanted
me to come to the first appointment with him and
be in there with him, and so we went in,
(29:13):
we sat down. His therapist is a nerdvergent. He specializes
a NERD virgence, and he was really confused by me
being there with a twenty two year old kid, and
I thought, I thought, you know, you sort of got
these things. He's like, so you just want mom here
for moral support. He's like, I've never had a twenty
two year old bring a parent in a session before.
(29:34):
And I'm thinking, wow, Like I've always done his therapy
with him. I don't now. I just did the first
one and he does it on his own now. But
like he was meeting somebody new. He knew that it
was a process to navigate that he wasn't certain of,
and he just wanted moral support talking about some hard
things in his past that he needed to share so
(29:56):
that this new therapist, you know, understood what going on
and some of what was Kin feeling, some of his
emotional turmoil, and like, I was just so floored that
he was surprised by me being there and being supportive.
When we went to get his permit, the lady at
the desk at the driver's license place yelled at me
(30:20):
that she was not talking to me. It was like, yeah,
she was asking for things and he didn't understand. And
instead of standing there and watching them go ten rounds
and still not getting to what they needed, I just
answered a question and she was like, no, you are
not welcome here. She told me to stand back behind
the line and go away.
Speaker 2 (30:41):
I mean I had a similar situation with a like
an urgent care place in Brooklyn last year, and yeah,
very I was like in the room and I was
like responding to some questions and she was like, I'm sorry.
Speaker 1 (30:57):
Why are you talking to me?
Speaker 2 (30:59):
Like this is not about you. Your child is this
many years old. And I was like, yeah, but I
think that is one of the things that's really hard,
and just to set expectations for listeners, like not only
do we have to do our own work on scaffolding
and figuring this stuff out, and like resetting expectations for
these rights of passage, you know, these kind of life
(31:20):
skill things. But we are always going to be confronted
by people in society who do not get it, who
aren't going to necessarily see our kids the way that
we've kind of ensured they've been seen by the adults
in their lives. And that's really hard. That's something that
we have to kind of like find peace with the
(31:41):
fact that our kids might be misunderstood if we're not
there to kind of bridge the gap and then deal
with the feelings that come up when people call us out.
And then you know, I don't know about you, but
I had to like really do some thinking after that,
like am I overinvolved?
Speaker 1 (31:57):
Should I have stepped back? You know what I mean?
Like I think this stuff is really confusing. It makes
us feel like we're doing the wrong thing. We know
we're filling a need. We have history with this kid,
we know you know their story and yeah, and it
just makes you question all of it. Yeah, but my
questioning these days is pretty short. I'm like out for you,
(32:20):
but I know that you know, like I know my kid,
I know what's going on here. Yeah, Okay, so let's
talk about our own nervous systems, our own experience. And
I think let's start with like when have we overhelped
in a way that was also painful for us? Right,
(32:45):
Like there have been times where I've overhelped, I've overstepped,
or I got it wrong, like I was just trying
to be empathetic and I got it all wrong and
my kid wouldn't talk to me for a few days,
like you know, and that doesn't feel for us. Yeah,
it's information. It tells us, you know, keep thinking about
(33:05):
their boundaries whatever. But how do we navigate to the
point where we're not taking it so personally? I think
that's what I'm trying to get at.
Speaker 2 (33:16):
Yeah, I mean when you find out, please let me know. No,
I mean seriously, Like this has been the hardest part
for me is it can feel like I'll just share
my personal experience, like this stuff feels intolerable, right when
we have a rupture like that as you just described,
(33:39):
because you know and I the same things happened to me.
I've pushed too far. I've tried to like micromanage a situation.
I've done all the things I know not to do,
but I have pushed it anyway because I just couldn't
let go of my attachment to this specific outcome and
it doesn't ever go well, then I feel bad. Then
(34:01):
I'm worried I screwed up my relationship with my kid.
Then I get anxious, you know, and we don't have control, right,
so you know, in the case of a kid who's
not living at home, like I have to just sit
with all those feelings until and I don't really like
doing that, Like I have to just be like, oh,
(34:23):
I guess I'm just being iced out right now, and
how am I going to tolerate that? Because it doesn't
feel tolerable. So that has been where I've been really
working hard. And you know, it's not like this happens
all the time, but just knowing that our relationship has changed,
Like our kids are separating, right, they are growing, and
(34:45):
this is all natural. It is completely natural for this
to happen, and it happens with any parent of any child, right,
We're gonna kind of get like entangled right with them.
And so from me, that is the skill. I'm just
working so hard on what can I do in the moment,
like even just to notice like, oh, okay, now I'm
(35:09):
in this situation. I used to be like I can't
stand this, Like I can't this is too much, it's
too painful, I can't do this. How am I going
to do this? Why did I have children? Like, you know,
the whole.
Speaker 1 (35:19):
Thing too much?
Speaker 2 (35:22):
And it still doesn't feel good. I still feel like
initially when these things happen that it feels intolerable, but
I also have a lot of evidence now well, actually
I can tolerate it. It's just unpleasant. I would rather
not be dealing with this right now or feeling these feelings.
But yeah, I try to rely on the tools. But
(35:43):
that's what I'm doing in real time, is learning the
tools and practicing with them, and when I have faster
recoveries from these things, being a little proud of myself,
like and then I can tell my therapist listen to
what happened and listen to how well I recovered.
Speaker 1 (35:59):
Yeah. The other feeling that sometimes comes up for me
is anger, like I am your parent, Look at what
I've done for you. I'm just trying to help and
you're icing me out like that. Yeah, you know, but
and that's natural. It's not helpful. This is natural, and
we just have to work through that kind of thing.
And understand that, you know, they also have feelings and
(36:21):
take up space and that that's also the way it
should be. And I've really been working hard. I don't
know that there's a lot of evidence of how hard
I've been working yet, but I'm still trying to ask
do you want my help? Or do you just want
me to listen? Because as I said earlier, my wiring
is immediately like I don't even know what's happening until
(36:43):
I'm halfway in it, fixing, helping, trying to offer solutions
as I'm really working at not offering solutions, maybe giving
a prompt that would help them come to a solution,
and or asking do you even want my help with us?
And I've had to learn that the hard way, you know,
I've had to learn that by overdoing it and being
(37:06):
iced out and you know, going through those things and
learning that way. But it's really hard to go against
your nature sometimes, right, Like, yeah, we want to honor
our kids wiring, Well, we have wiring too, and sometimes
our instincts really are strong.
Speaker 2 (37:22):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, yeah, you know, I'll just share this
metaphor that my sister was telling me about the other day,
This idea that like we're playing, we're playing tennis, like
we like hit the ball right, and then sometimes we're
running to the other side to hit it back to us,
when it's really like our kids job to pick up
(37:43):
the racket, you know, and so we really need to
kind of stay on our side of the court. We
need to just kind of honor what this's going to
look like. I love you know what you're doing asking
for help. I use a lot of declarative language now,
so I you know, if you listeners aren't familiar. Linda
Murphy wrote the Declarative Language Handbook, And with my kiddo,
(38:05):
even asking, you know, saying would you like my help
can feel demanding sometimes, so it's like I have some
ideas or I'm available if that would be helpful, just
let me know right Or I might say, you know,
I'm going to be working all afternoon. I know you
have some schoolwork. Let me know if you want my
(38:27):
zoom link and we can cowork and body double or something.
I'm around if you need me. But I try to
leave it like pretty like low key, and I'm always
very you know, I do get excited when the invitation
is accepted and my child will accept my help but
that doesn't happen that often. But yeah, it all has
to be permission based, and it all has to be
(38:48):
on their terms. Even though we often have the solutions,
are the right strategies or the ways we've hacked ourselves
to figure this stuff out. We want to save our
kids all the years of you know, trial and error, struggle,
but the invitations everything m hm.
Speaker 1 (39:03):
And I've learned from my nerd virgin kid to say,
I see that you're having a hard time. I am
here if and when you want to talk to me
and walk away, which is another thing that's really hard,
but that has actually worked out. You know. My fear
was always that he would never share with me, he
would never get help when he needed it. Right, He'll
(39:25):
come and talk to me every single time when he's ready. Yeah,
and he does want my help. Sometimes he does ask
for my input or he just wants me to listen,
and that has really changed our relationship. You know. The
other way feels like a lot of pressure and a
lot of like my parents doesn't think I measure up,
or my parents doesn't think I'm capable. Whereas if we
(39:48):
just say I'm here, I'm happy to support. These are
the ways I can support you if they're open to
even hearing that much and just waiting, you know, Seth
Perler taught me put it out there and wait however
long it takes. It can be so long, so long,
like we always want to fill pauses. We want to
(40:11):
fill and they get uncomfortable when they're long. Yeah, but
there's so much more magic in waiting and silence.
Speaker 2 (40:20):
Yes, agreed. And I also want to say to add
to that, I wrote down a note as you're talking
that we need to really let go, not fake let go.
So you know, we can say like, yeah, like I'm
here if you want to talk whatever, like and act
like we're all cool. We got you know, it's fine.
(40:40):
You know, we're not invested. But if we still are
really like have this energy that's like grasping, like you know,
they can sense that we really need them to come
talk to us, they won't come talk to us. So
part of the under the hood work for us is
really genuinely meeting it when we walk away, not doing
it out of anger or like showing how strong we are,
(41:02):
but really being at piece with the fact that like, hey,
I'm here, I love this human, I am here. If
they want my insight, my advice. If they want to
share with me. I'd be so honored if they come
share with me, and I'm okay if they don't, because
this is their life, right, that's where we want to
ultimately be because that feels like freedom. That feels like
(41:22):
freedom for our kids, it feels like freedom for us.
And that's when our connection can just get so much
more authentic and stronger.
Speaker 1 (41:30):
I think, hmm, yeah, yeah, Well we can just be
there without an agenda. When it's genuine connection, it changes
the relationship. It helps their nervous system. You know, what
you were talking about is when you don't really let
go and there's that energy. That's our nervous systems sort
of talking to each other. Right, we're putting out a
certain energy. We might be trying to hide it, but
(41:53):
it's still felt, it's still there, it's still in the air.
I love that you added that because I think it's
really important. We are way out of time.
Speaker 2 (42:03):
We're just scratching the surface.
Speaker 1 (42:05):
We have so much more to talk about, so hopefully
we'll do maybe a part three and a part four.
Having these conversations with you has been truthfully liberating for
me to just be completely open and honest. We don't
have it figured out. We I mean me and my family.
I'm not speaking for you. We don't have it figured out.
We're working on it, but we have the solid foundation
(42:28):
that we need to be able to be what my
particular kid needs me to be. For the most part, right,
I have problems where you know, I have times where
the emotions well up and I freak out and I'm
not sure I'm doing the right thing or maybe I'm
failing them. But for the most part, I think we've
worked all these years on building that foundation by noticing
(42:48):
the nervous system, about seeing behavior as communication, all these things,
and we've worked on connection and relationship and so we'll
figure it out. Like I know that we'll figure it out.
It's all going to be okay. But just being really
transparent in these conversations has been such a relief for me.
It's a big exhale.
Speaker 2 (43:06):
Yeah, I feel the same. I feel the same, And
if I can just add like, I don't remember the
exact situation this summer, but I had a conversation with
my kiddo that I feel like I had been wanting
to have in some capacity for like four years and
(43:27):
it happened, and it was such an important moment for me,
and I just felt like, a all of this stuff that
we're doing, all the stuff that your listeners are doing,
the way we are getting curious about ourselves, we're showing
up for our kids, We're doing the work we are
in this right with our complex kids. It all pays off.
(43:51):
Like it's not about when, it's not we don't know
when the timeline all of that stuff, but all of
it matters. And I just I came out of that conversation.
I'm like, we are playing the longest possible game here,
But then you have moments like that and you're like, oh,
but it's totally worth it. And it was a conversation.
(44:13):
It wasn't like we like, you know, solve some mathematical whatever.
It was like it was a beautiful moment of connection
and relationship that just felt so special, Like I I'll
never forget that conversation. Right, So all the stuff that
we're doing, this is what we're working towards. Right, It's
(44:33):
just a very long game. And you know, I hope
that that's helpful for listeners to think again when the
timelines are so unconventional we want to see results. We
want to know that there were things are moving in
that direction. And so just to kind of maybe reset
what success looks like and what we're working towards can
be helpful.
Speaker 1 (44:53):
Yeah. For me, success in parenting is the relationship that
I have with my kids totally, especially now that they're older.
You know, could run off and cut me out. I
don't want that, and I'm glad they don't want that, right,
you know. And sometimes it's difficult when you have young
adults are still at home and you know, it's it's
a totally different dynamic. And like when we bought this house,
(45:14):
these kids were small. We never imagined being for adults
in this house and how it really doesn't work for
us now, but we never thought about it, you know.
But like, having the relationship that I want with them
feels like the biggest win in parenting and the other
stuff eventually is gonna work out. We're gonna work at it,
(45:38):
We're gonna work on it, right, but it's gonna work
out because we have that connection, we have that relationship,
and that I mean, that's a relief too. Honestly, it's
a big relief totally. Well, if you are listening to
this episode, Please go to parenting adh sheet and auts
dot com to get the show notes. We will link
(46:00):
up to part one of this conversation. If we have
more future parts of this conversation, I will be sure
to link them up for you there as well. And
I really thank you for listening and WI thank you
for coming as your authentic self and sharing all the hard,
uncomfortable bits. It's been so much fun to just be
(46:20):
so real.
Speaker 2 (46:22):
I appreciate you too, like I wouldn't. Yeah, it's like
you're like, I don't know. I just want to share
and open up with you. I think we have. It's
nice that we're in this together. Yeah, in so many ways.
So thank you for the conversation.
Speaker 1 (46:35):
Its great, awesome. I will see everybody in the next episode.
Take good care. I see you. You're doing hard and
meaningful work and you don't have to do it alone.
If you found this episode helpful, share it with someone
who needs it and leave a quick review so others
can find this support too. When you're ready for next steps,
(46:55):
the Regulated Kids Project is here with the tools, coaching
and can community to help you raise a more regulated,
resilient child. Get more info at Regulated kids dot com,
Hi there, friends, I have a really special episode for
you today. This is part two of a two part
crossover with my friend Debbie Reeber, a full tilt parenting podcast.
In part one, which aired earlier this week over on
Debbie's show, episode four seventy four, we talked about what
it really means to launch a neurodivergent young adult, how
(00:25):
our definitions of launching have evolved over the years, and
the surprising ways that our kids still needs catholding and
support from us. We also dive into the difference between
independence and interdependence and what that actually looks like in
practice in real life. This conversation was like therapy for me.
(00:46):
Y'all honest, real, validating. There is no perfection here. Debbie
and I are showing you our real life experience. So
if you haven't listened to part one yet, cause this
one and go check it out first, then come back
here for Part two for more of our real life conversation.
(01:07):
Debbie and I talk about boundaries, burnout, and what it
looks like to support our kids without losing ourselves in
the process. We share the behind the scenes support we're
still giving our young adults, the judgment that we have
sometimes faced for that, and how we're learning to trust
that long game, the big picture, even when progress looks
(01:30):
so different. So let's get into it. Welcome to Beautifully Complex,
where we unpack what it really means to parent neurodivergent
kids with dignity and clarity. I'm Penny Williams, and I
know firsthand how tough and transformative this journey can be.
Let's dive in and discover how to raise regulated, resilient,
(01:52):
beautifully complex kids together. Oh and if you want more support,
join our free community at hub dot beautifully complex dot life.
Hey everyone, welcome back to Beautifully Complex. I am so
thrilled to have wie reeber A full till parenting here
(02:14):
with me. We started our conversation on launching which we
both use air quotes if you're listening around launching our
neurodivergent young Adults over on Debbie's podcast, so you can
go over there and look up episode four seventy four,
(02:34):
which I will also link in the show notes for you.
That is part one of this conversation, and we are
now going to dive into part two talking about scaffolding
how to scaffold support while also teaching the skills, the
life skills that our kids are going to need to
be more independent, and also talk about ourselves, our own
(02:57):
nervous system, our own boundaries, our own needs, because they
are just as important. I was listening to a podcast
the other day and they were saying, once you have kids,
nothing else matters, and I just cringed. It was like, no,
we're trying to stop that message. Debbie and I have
both been working on trying to stop that message. And
(03:19):
so you matter too, just as much. You deserve to
feel good, and when you feel good, you can help
your kid feel good, which then helps them to do good.
So we're going to talk some about that too as
we navigate young adulthood for our kids. Dewie, do you
(03:39):
want to start talking about what scaffolding support means to
you and then maybe what it looks like now that
your kid is in their twenties. Yes.
Speaker 2 (03:54):
So I always like the visual of the scaffolding like
that goes up when there's a building right now under
construction or they're doing some repair work, that you build
up these supports to keep everybody safe while the improvements
are being made, and scaffolding then once things are starting
to look better you know, we slowly take down the scaffolding,
(04:18):
and so that's just such a good visual. So that's
what I think of it as with my kiddo. But yeah,
so scaffolding is kind of like it's helping our kids learn,
whether it's skills or on their own personal growth journey.
We talked in the last episode about you know, this
idea of independence and those things, but whatever it is
(04:39):
that they're working on to help them kind of progress
so they don't get stalled and kind of stall out.
It's finding ways to help them with our support, make small,
meaningful steps that they can feel sense of agency over,
but they also have us there in case things, you know,
(05:01):
go off the rails. Actually, one of the terms that
I really enjoyed lately is this guy Chris Baum. He
wrote this book called Finding the Magic in middle School.
I don't know if you read it. It's really good book,
but he talks about this idea of companioning, and companioning
is this idea that like, our kids are on this
epic adventure and you think about like a sherpa who
(05:22):
goes along with someone who's climbing a mountain and they're there,
it's still the person's adventure. But the sharp is there
to like carry some supplies, and like if they're going
to step off the trail and gravely injure themselves, the
sharp is there to support. And so that's being a companion.
And I think scaffoldings like related to that. It's kind
of remembering that this is our kid's journey and they
(05:44):
have to have agency and control over their journey, and
they also can't. We can't just like being like, Okay,
you're on your own good luck. So we want to
always be kind of finding that just right challenge, like
where is there an opportunity, Where is our little window
here where there's a skill, a fledgling skill that we
(06:05):
can kind of push along. So that's scaffolding. But I
don't remember the second part of the question.
Speaker 1 (06:11):
I'm going to add to that first, and then we'll
go to the second part again. Because I have often
used the analogy of a sharpa myself. Oh how funny,
And I love that. And I love that you added
the safety piece to scaffolding, because I too think about scaffolding.
We have built our own house before, we've had scaffolding
and used it, and I often picture that. But I
(06:33):
didn't necessarily think about how it keeps people safe. It
keeps the workers safe who are on it, It keeps
people who might be underneath it safe, and we know
how important that felt safety is. And so I love
that you put those two pieces together. And the sherpa, Yeah,
like they have experience with it, they've done this before,
(06:53):
they know where the pitfalls might be. They can give
you some guidance, but like it's still your journey. You're
still having that experience and you're still saying kind of
what works for you and what you want and where
you want to go. And I love that. Yeah, And
the term companioning is fantastic.
Speaker 2 (07:09):
It's a good one. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:10):
Yeah, So what does scaffolding look like? Maybe now for
you guys or since transitioning more from like teen in
high school into other things.
Speaker 2 (07:22):
Well, there's a lot more scaffolding that I realized there
would be at this point, you know, going back to
in our first first part of this conversation, we were
talking about our expectations for what launching would look like
versus what it actually does look like. And so I
think when it comes to scaffolding, and we don't have
(07:44):
to like I'm not going to like beat that in
analogy to death and you know, I'll stop talking about buildings,
but you guys anologies. But you know, I think there
is a sense that some of the scaffolding's going to
come down, like when our kids are kind of moving
forward and it'll be kind of maybe less dirty and
(08:04):
they're you know, it's just going to be it's going
to look and feel different. And so in reality, there's
still been a lot of scaffolding for us. It's hard
sometimes to find that just right balance. Again, going back
to this idea of individuation or if you have kids
who have such a strong desire for autonomy, so a
(08:24):
kid with more of a demand I don't like the
term pathological demand avoidance, but rather persistent desire or drive
for autonomy. When you have those kinds of kids who
really want to be doing things on their own and
push back against demands, the scaffolding becomes really tricky to
(08:44):
navigate with a young adult because it has to be
much more collaborative, right. I think when our kids are younger,
there's a lot of behind the scenes scaffolding our kids
don't even know about, right, sure, we're just building it
all the time.
Speaker 1 (08:59):
We're taking to building a backup, and we're just always
like monitoring.
Speaker 2 (09:03):
When our kids are older, I think they have to
be a lot more involved in understanding what you're doing,
what are they comfortable with, where do they specifically see
or feel that they need support, and then what are
we willing to do to support. So the scaffolding is
like this very collaborative process, and I think we're still
scaffolding on all of the things. We're scaffolding on life
(09:27):
skills right even you know, I'll just give you an example.
The first semester that my kid was away. You know,
there's no there's a food plan there, but there's no
dinner served on Saturday and Sunday nights in the residence hall.
So I'm like, and my kid is in the UK,
(09:49):
So I'm like, getting you know, the app on my
phone texting with my kid. What would you like because
you know, there's conversion and there's like putting in a credit,
like there's a lot of like high the scenes stuff,
and so I would like get my kids order, then
I would do the app from here in the Netherlands
to the UK, and then I'd give my kid's cell
(10:10):
phone number. I'm like, and then i'd have to like
text like, this is the code for the delivery person,
what's your order?
Speaker 1 (10:16):
They're out of this.
Speaker 2 (10:17):
Like it was so much back and forth, right, but
I wanted my child to eat, and at the time
it was too heavy of a lift, right, yeah, between
doing all of the other life skill development stuff. So
but then after that first semester over Christmas break last year,
I was like, I think we need to put that
up on your phone and I'm going to show you
(10:38):
how to do it. And so the first time that
my kid ordered, you know, back at school in the
spring semester, I got a note like where should I
get food from? I'm like, I don't know, what are
you hungry for? But my child like did it and
kept me updated. I did this, What do I do? Now?
How do I should I add a tip?
Speaker 1 (10:57):
You know? All those questions?
Speaker 2 (10:58):
Ye, And now well, here we are like a year later,
and I don't even know what my child eats on
a Saturday or Sunday night, but I know they're eating.
So that's a little example of what it looks like.
So it's all the things, but it's maybe kind of bigger,
more independent things that I didn't realize we're going to
(11:20):
be coming up.
Speaker 1 (11:22):
And I can hear parents saying you shouldn't be doing
that for your kid, right, But what I'm hearing from
you is that you offloaded some of that load and
you sort of faded out support. So you figured out
(11:43):
that they couldn't do everything from the very beginning, and
you took a piece of that that you could help with,
with the intent from the beginning that it would go
back on their plate at some point when they had
the capacity and the ability to manage it successfully, whereas
in the first semester that might have sent them off
(12:07):
the rails on a Saturday evening, right, like totally, oh
my gosh, I can't even manage this. So it's we're
never saying that we are going to forever do something
for our kids. We're never saying that they're never going
to learn. We're just honoring their timetable, right, and we're
honoring where they are and what they need in those moments.
(12:28):
And Yeah, it stressed me out thinking of hearing you
explain that process of all the things you were doing.
But like, I can totally see that there have been
times where that would be something that I would need
to do and take it on because we've figured out
where that line is between doing too much for them
(12:51):
and doing what they actually need.
Speaker 2 (12:53):
I think, yeah, although the line is always changing of course, right,
and it's lines that we didn't even know were They're like,
I didn't realize that like getting food on a Saturday
night was going to be something that I was going
to have to like consider support around and work with
my kid around, right, So I think that's one of
(13:14):
the things too. And I'd love to hear what kind
of things you've found you've had to scaffold for that
you weren't anticipating, because I literally didn't give that a
moment's thought, like, oh, I got to teach my kid
how to like what oer takeout, right, But there's so
many little things like that. There's so many demands, especially
(13:36):
you know, my kid al is in a university setting
in a different country with a whole different bureaucratic system.
That tax is my executive function. I'm like, oh, my goodness, Like,
I didn't predict all of this stuff, so it's just
an ongoing surprise, like, Oh, this is a whole other thing.
Let's figure out a plan for this.
Speaker 1 (13:56):
M h. It's an ever moving target. I got okay
a long time ago, or at least accepted that it's
an ever moving target. And when we finally seemed to
get some headway on something, something else will come in
that need its scaffolding and support and attention. Yeah, when
one of my kids went off to college, I got
(14:17):
a text the first time they were doing laundry, how
do I do this? And I'm like, well, you did
laundry at home. Yeah, they're big posters on the wall.
But there was such a habit of just asking mom right,
and so we had to work on pulling back on
(14:37):
that and doing like you just said, like, okay, well,
what do you think? Is the first step? Like I
learned not to start problem solving, which is my nature.
My first instinct is to solve and fix right away
and do it for whoever is in front of me,
stranger kid, anyone. Like. That's just why I'm wired. I've
(14:58):
really had to learn how to say, Okay, what do
you think? Yeah? Right, and not give an answer with
my nerds virgin kid, there have been just a lot
of things that I kind of sit in on. So
if he needs a doctor's appointment, he can bring his
current phone we'll sit together. At first, I'll say, you know,
(15:21):
these are the things you need to say or ask for,
and then I'll be here if I'm needed to sort
of walk through that more or to offer guidance. I'm
still the driver. The last time he went to the doctor,
she called me, are you his driver? I'm like, thanks
for reducing me to nothing. But she was not awesome anyway.
(15:44):
She was really berating him about being twenty two and
not taking care of himself and is not our regular doctor,
so she didn't know. But still it wasn't okay anyway.
So you know, I still have to always take that role.
Because we don't have public transport where we are. You can't,
like he'd have to walk two miles just to grab
(16:04):
a bus, and the bus only goes very limited places,
so we just don't have that opportunity. And so because
I could be flexible and take that on, he doesn't
go to a lot of places. He works with his
dad now, so dad just you know, they go to
work together, they come home together, which is a relief
to me because when he had a different job, I
had to take him and pick him up and stuff too,
(16:25):
and it took a lot of my time, but just
knowing that there are some things that just are my
role right now until he gets more comfortable driving and
gets his license. That's a role that I'm taking on.
And I'm okay with that because I know that he
just needs more time to be comfortable with driving. He's
anxious about it. But there are other things where I'm like, Okay,
(16:49):
why don't I fill out that paperwork for you? Because
he has his graphia, his handwriting was really difficult, and
he'll say, no, I need to learn how to do this,
and he will do it himself, and he will slowed
down enough that someone can read it and do what
he needs to do, and it surprises me. And I
think we talked in part one about sometimes they surprise us.
(17:09):
Sometimes we're ready to give more support than they need,
and it is so crucial to get their buy in
at this age. We have to ask what do you need?
What do you want? I was just answering a parent
email before we got on about my kid is struggling
in college. It's year three, they're passing, but I think
(17:32):
they need to drop one of their classes. It's just
too much, it's too much stress. Should I go over
there and make all this stuff happen. And my first
response was, what does your kid want? We have to
bring them into these conversations, right if we don't, the
pressure of us trying to manage it is just regulating,
(17:54):
and then they're going to be less successful. They're going
to tune us out right, They're not going to take
our car, We're not going to answer our tags. They're
not gonna want us to be part of it.
Speaker 2 (18:03):
Were you in my apartment today?
Speaker 1 (18:05):
Because yeah, oh but I've been there, right, like I've
so been in these situations too. Yeah, yeah, I mean.
Speaker 2 (18:15):
And what's tricky about that scenario you just share the
email that you were just responding to, is like we
go talk to our kids and they may say, no,
actually I can do this, I want to do this,
and we might be like, oh gosh, I don't you know.
We might see this is not necessarily going to play
out the way that you think it is, and we
(18:36):
want to pre rescue them. We want to like swoop
in and prevent the failure, the setback, whatever, because we
also have experienced significant setbacks. But our kids or see
what seen what happens when something doesn't go well for them,
and we want to prevent that from happening. So it
is really tricky when our kids have a vision, and
(18:57):
but I agree, we have to ask them and it
has to be on their terms when they're young adults.
And if they decide no, I think I can do this.
I don't want to drop the class. I can do
the thing, then our job as the companion the ship
is like, Okay, I hear this is what you want
to do, and I respect that this is your journey.
(19:18):
Let me know how I can help. And that's really
the best that we can do. Like we can't. If
we try to do more than that, we are going
to potentially damage our relationship with them because we're going
to become this controlling person. And that is not what
a young adult who's individuating needs or wants in their world.
Speaker 1 (19:38):
Yeah. Yeah, and it's not what they need because if
they don't figure out how to work it out themselves,
they are not learning those skills. They are not able.
Right when we jump in and try to rescue, we're
preventing growth. Yeah. I was listening to an episode of
The Good Life Project this morning with doctor Lisa Damore
(19:59):
and she was re iterating this. They were talking about teens.
They had a couple parents of young adults who were
in college on asking questions, and she's, you know, one
of the worst things we do for our kids is
we rescue and we try to fix and we try
to prevent, and growth only happens through struggle, through difficult things,
(20:20):
through figuring it out yourself. Yeah, I want to return
to this idea of letting our kids fail. And again,
I'm like air quotes over here. I can't say it
without doing it. Yeah, because so many parents will ask
me that question, do I let them fail? Is this
the time I let them fail? And I would love
to get your opinion on letting kids fail. I certainly
(20:44):
have a strong opinion about it, but I want to
hear yours first and then I'll share.
Speaker 2 (20:49):
Yeah, and I and I have to give a shout
out to jes Leahy and her book The Gift of Failure,
which she writes a lot about this. Yeah. I mean,
I guess I hadn't thought of that language letting kids fail.
I don't think it's failure like I think failure is
the wrong word. I think just what you said, this
is our kid's journey, full stop.
Speaker 1 (21:11):
Right.
Speaker 2 (21:12):
Of course, we want our kids to find their way, Like,
we want that so much. We love these kids so much,
we would do anything for them, and we want them
to create lives of purpose and meaning so they can
feel fulfilled. Right, That's it. That's the big dream, the goal.
So we want that. And then we have a kid
(21:33):
who is making choices or is like kind of progressing
or doing things that we can see, Oh, this is
not going to lead to that out We think this
is not going to lead to that outcome that we
want for this child. First of all, we can't predict
the future. We have no idea what this kid's journey
is meant to look like, or what is going to
be the thing that really clicks for them if it
(21:55):
clicks right, and it is completely out of our hands,
it's just it's out of our hands. So yeah, so
I would say we're not letting our kids fail. We
are honoring that they're on their own journey, that we
get to be this important person in their life, that
(22:16):
we get to be in relationship with this complex, this
beautifully complex human who's on an incredible journey and we
get to like live this life together. And it's messy
and it's all of those things, But it's their journey.
We're on our journey too. We're in it every day.
We're still you know, we're still doing our own work, right,
(22:38):
We're still in it. Yes, Yeah, I would say we're
not letting our kids fail. We're honoring their journey and
we're showing up to support in ways that we can.
Speaker 1 (22:46):
Yeah. And while failure is a teaching tool, pulling back
all support and allowing it to happen in that way
is not a teaching tool and is not going to
lead to growth. I always think about what is the
message we're sending. Because my kid taught me years ago
that he hears what I say in a different way.
(23:09):
So like when I said let's sit down and do
your homework together, I think we should do it together.
He heard Mom doesn't think I can do this. Yeah,
And that was huge, Like that really stuck in my
gut and asking that question. Then if I just say, okay,
you're on your own, I give up your kid, may
(23:32):
hear my mom just gave up on me. Yeah, my
parent doesn't care? Yeah, right, And that is so damaging.
So being really conscientious of the message that they're receiving,
whether or not it's the one we intend or send, right,
and then you know we can honor that they don't
want as much help from us. We can say, Okay,
(23:55):
we're giving too much help. It's enabling. We need to
pull back, but we need to fade support while still
providing opportunities for success. Yeah, just letting a kid fall
on their ass and fail and like be in this
pit of dispair like that helps no one. That term
drives me nuts, and it is a traditional way of
(24:17):
doing things. You know, if kids are really not into school,
a lot of people tell you, well, just let them
figure it out, let them fail, then they'll then they'll
learn their lesson and they'll do better. Yeah, but that's
not always true.
Speaker 2 (24:29):
Well, it's definitely not true with neurodivergent kids too, right,
And I think that that is, you know, there's a
lot of societal pressure to pull back supports quickly and
that you know you shouldn't be doing all this. You're
just like, you know, you mentioned that experience with a
doctor who was braining your kiddo, Like it's really hard
because there are lots of messages like that.
Speaker 1 (25:03):
I think this is a really good segue into talking
about what we can like legally do for our young
adults and what we can't because when they turn eighteen,
at least here in the United States, you can't advocate
on their behalf anymore in a lot of places, and
it's really tough.
Speaker 2 (25:24):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (25:24):
I think I mentioned in our part one episode on
my kid's eighteenth birthday, he quit therapy. He was still
in high school. He still needed my sport, he still
needed therapy, but he didn't see the value in it anymore,
and he knew it was his choice, and he pulled
back right and in a lot of ways, to me,
(25:45):
it was almost like the floor fell out from under me,
like all the things that I was able to help
with and being like in therapy sessions with him, which
I could still do if he invited me in rate,
but you know, his therapist couldn't come to me and
talk to me about stuff anymore. You know, they have
to make their own doctor's appointments, They have to do
all these things that I feel like we should start
(26:07):
preparing them for earlier, or preparing ourselves for earlier. Were
there shockers for you or things that kind of knocked
you off course.
Speaker 2 (26:16):
Yeah, I think, yeah, just kind of having different relationships
with the therapists was one thing for sure. I think,
you know, we moved here and had to establish care
for my kiddo, you know, with both kind of general
you know, practitioner, but also with mental health supports here
in the Netherlands, and those are meetings that I've always
(26:40):
my kid has wanted me as part of those meetings
because I'm the one with like the you know, I
know the whole history, right and I can provide the
dates and when this happened and when this med was,
you know, like all of those details. And you know,
I very clearly was disinvited, like I should. We showed
up to like a zoom meeting together and the people
(27:04):
that my kid was meeting with were like, yeah, so
we don't want you here. This is not your this
is for your kid, this is not for you. And
I was like okay, and I asked my child. I
was like, are you cool? And I was like yeah,
I guess that's okay. And I just had to let
it all go and I was I knew that it
wasn't going to be accurate reporting and that there were
(27:24):
going to be a lot of questions, and I was
just like, yeah, this isn't my thing. Anymore. And that
was really hard because I think behind the scenes and
you're probably I mean, I don't want to speak for you,
but my hunches, you're doing a lot of this stuff too.
Like there's a lot of like behind the scenes, like
coordination of care and like making sure prescriptions are sent
(27:45):
in for the right things, and like there's a lot
of moving pieces and kind of being the manager of
someone else's health care journey. If it's more complex, it's
a lot. And so to be kind of kicked out
of that.
Speaker 1 (28:00):
Was like who that was?
Speaker 2 (28:03):
It was hard, and I also had to realize like ultimately, yeah,
like this is stuff, This is important stuff, and this
is stuff, especially if there's medications involved. Our kids need
to eventually learn how to call in a prescription or
how to even have the wherewithal to be like, oh,
(28:23):
I'm running low. I should make sure that I have,
you know, more meds being called into the pharmacy. Like
those are important skills. And I think for me, the
stakes have felt so high, like well, we can't run
out of this thing, or like, oh, hell's gonna break loose.
So yeah, I've just like micro managed some of those things.
(28:44):
And so that is an area of growth for me
that I'm still very much working on.
Speaker 1 (28:52):
Mm hmmm. Yeah. When my kid did start therapy again
about a year ago, maybe nine months or a year ago,
decided on it zone he could use it. He had
to make the call right and schedule, and he wanted
me to come to the first appointment with him and
be in there with him, and so we went in,
(29:13):
we sat down. His therapist is a nerdvergent. He specializes
a NERD virgence, and he was really confused by me
being there with a twenty two year old kid, and
I thought, I thought, you know, you sort of got
these things. He's like, so you just want mom here
for moral support. He's like, I've never had a twenty
two year old bring a parent in a session before.
(29:34):
And I'm thinking, wow, Like I've always done his therapy
with him. I don't now. I just did the first
one and he does it on his own now. But
like he was meeting somebody new. He knew that it
was a process to navigate that he wasn't certain of,
and he just wanted moral support talking about some hard
things in his past that he needed to share so
(29:56):
that this new therapist, you know, understood what going on
and some of what was Kin feeling, some of his
emotional turmoil, and like, I was just so floored that
he was surprised by me being there and being supportive.
When we went to get his permit, the lady at
the desk at the driver's license place yelled at me
(30:20):
that she was not talking to me. It was like, yeah,
she was asking for things and he didn't understand. And
instead of standing there and watching them go ten rounds
and still not getting to what they needed, I just
answered a question and she was like, no, you are
not welcome here. She told me to stand back behind
the line and go away.
Speaker 2 (30:41):
I mean I had a similar situation with a like
an urgent care place in Brooklyn last year, and yeah,
very I was like in the room and I was
like responding to some questions and she was like, I'm sorry.
Speaker 1 (30:57):
Why are you talking to me?
Speaker 2 (30:59):
Like this is not about you. Your child is this
many years old. And I was like, yeah, but I
think that is one of the things that's really hard,
and just to set expectations for listeners, like not only
do we have to do our own work on scaffolding
and figuring this stuff out, and like resetting expectations for
these rights of passage, you know, these kind of life
(31:20):
skill things. But we are always going to be confronted
by people in society who do not get it, who
aren't going to necessarily see our kids the way that
we've kind of ensured they've been seen by the adults
in their lives. And that's really hard. That's something that
we have to kind of like find peace with the
(31:41):
fact that our kids might be misunderstood if we're not
there to kind of bridge the gap and then deal
with the feelings that come up when people call us out.
And then you know, I don't know about you, but
I had to like really do some thinking after that,
like am I overinvolved?
Speaker 1 (31:57):
Should I have stepped back? You know what I mean?
Like I think this stuff is really confusing. It makes
us feel like we're doing the wrong thing. We know
we're filling a need. We have history with this kid,
we know you know their story and yeah, and it
just makes you question all of it. Yeah, but my
questioning these days is pretty short. I'm like out for you,
(32:20):
but I know that you know, like I know my kid,
I know what's going on here. Yeah, Okay, so let's
talk about our own nervous systems, our own experience. And
I think let's start with like when have we overhelped
in a way that was also painful for us? Right,
(32:45):
Like there have been times where I've overhelped, I've overstepped,
or I got it wrong, like I was just trying
to be empathetic and I got it all wrong and
my kid wouldn't talk to me for a few days,
like you know, and that doesn't feel for us. Yeah,
it's information. It tells us, you know, keep thinking about
(33:05):
their boundaries whatever. But how do we navigate to the
point where we're not taking it so personally? I think
that's what I'm trying to get at.
Speaker 2 (33:16):
Yeah, I mean when you find out, please let me know. No,
I mean seriously, Like this has been the hardest part
for me is it can feel like I'll just share
my personal experience, like this stuff feels intolerable, right when
we have a rupture like that as you just described,
(33:39):
because you know and I the same things happened to me.
I've pushed too far. I've tried to like micromanage a situation.
I've done all the things I know not to do,
but I have pushed it anyway because I just couldn't
let go of my attachment to this specific outcome and
it doesn't ever go well, then I feel bad. Then
(34:01):
I'm worried I screwed up my relationship with my kid.
Then I get anxious, you know, and we don't have control, right,
so you know, in the case of a kid who's
not living at home, like I have to just sit
with all those feelings until and I don't really like
doing that, Like I have to just be like, oh,
(34:23):
I guess I'm just being iced out right now, and
how am I going to tolerate that? Because it doesn't
feel tolerable. So that has been where I've been really
working hard. And you know, it's not like this happens
all the time, but just knowing that our relationship has changed,
Like our kids are separating, right, they are growing, and
(34:45):
this is all natural. It is completely natural for this
to happen, and it happens with any parent of any child, right,
We're gonna kind of get like entangled right with them.
And so from me, that is the skill. I'm just
working so hard on what can I do in the moment,
like even just to notice like, oh, okay, now I'm
(35:09):
in this situation. I used to be like I can't
stand this, Like I can't this is too much, it's
too painful, I can't do this. How am I going
to do this? Why did I have children? Like, you know,
the whole.
Speaker 1 (35:19):
Thing too much?
Speaker 2 (35:22):
And it still doesn't feel good. I still feel like
initially when these things happen that it feels intolerable, but
I also have a lot of evidence now well, actually
I can tolerate it. It's just unpleasant. I would rather
not be dealing with this right now or feeling these feelings.
But yeah, I try to rely on the tools. But
(35:43):
that's what I'm doing in real time, is learning the
tools and practicing with them, and when I have faster
recoveries from these things, being a little proud of myself,
like and then I can tell my therapist listen to
what happened and listen to how well I recovered.
Speaker 1 (35:59):
Yeah. The other feeling that sometimes comes up for me
is anger, like I am your parent, Look at what
I've done for you. I'm just trying to help and
you're icing me out like that. Yeah, you know, but
and that's natural. It's not helpful. This is natural, and
we just have to work through that kind of thing.
And understand that, you know, they also have feelings and
(36:21):
take up space and that that's also the way it
should be. And I've really been working hard. I don't
know that there's a lot of evidence of how hard
I've been working yet, but I'm still trying to ask
do you want my help? Or do you just want
me to listen? Because as I said earlier, my wiring
is immediately like I don't even know what's happening until
(36:43):
I'm halfway in it, fixing, helping, trying to offer solutions
as I'm really working at not offering solutions, maybe giving
a prompt that would help them come to a solution,
and or asking do you even want my help with us?
And I've had to learn that the hard way, you know,
I've had to learn that by overdoing it and being
(37:06):
iced out and you know, going through those things and
learning that way. But it's really hard to go against
your nature sometimes, right, Like, yeah, we want to honor
our kids wiring, Well, we have wiring too, and sometimes
our instincts really are strong.
Speaker 2 (37:22):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, yeah, you know, I'll just share this
metaphor that my sister was telling me about the other day,
This idea that like we're playing, we're playing tennis, like
we like hit the ball right, and then sometimes we're
running to the other side to hit it back to us,
when it's really like our kids job to pick up
(37:43):
the racket, you know, and so we really need to
kind of stay on our side of the court. We
need to just kind of honor what this's going to
look like. I love you know what you're doing asking
for help. I use a lot of declarative language now,
so I you know, if you listeners aren't familiar. Linda
Murphy wrote the Declarative Language Handbook, And with my kiddo,
(38:05):
even asking, you know, saying would you like my help
can feel demanding sometimes, so it's like I have some
ideas or I'm available if that would be helpful, just
let me know right Or I might say, you know,
I'm going to be working all afternoon. I know you
have some schoolwork. Let me know if you want my
(38:27):
zoom link and we can cowork and body double or something.
I'm around if you need me. But I try to
leave it like pretty like low key, and I'm always
very you know, I do get excited when the invitation
is accepted and my child will accept my help but
that doesn't happen that often. But yeah, it all has
to be permission based, and it all has to be
(38:48):
on their terms. Even though we often have the solutions,
are the right strategies or the ways we've hacked ourselves
to figure this stuff out. We want to save our
kids all the years of you know, trial and error, struggle,
but the invitations everything m hm.
Speaker 1 (39:03):
And I've learned from my nerd virgin kid to say,
I see that you're having a hard time. I am
here if and when you want to talk to me
and walk away, which is another thing that's really hard,
but that has actually worked out. You know. My fear
was always that he would never share with me, he
would never get help when he needed it. Right, He'll
(39:25):
come and talk to me every single time when he's ready. Yeah,
and he does want my help. Sometimes he does ask
for my input or he just wants me to listen,
and that has really changed our relationship. You know. The
other way feels like a lot of pressure and a
lot of like my parents doesn't think I measure up,
or my parents doesn't think I'm capable. Whereas if we
(39:48):
just say I'm here, I'm happy to support. These are
the ways I can support you if they're open to
even hearing that much and just waiting, you know, Seth
Perler taught me put it out there and wait however
long it takes. It can be so long, so long,
like we always want to fill pauses. We want to
(40:11):
fill and they get uncomfortable when they're long. Yeah, but
there's so much more magic in waiting and silence.
Speaker 2 (40:20):
Yes, agreed. And I also want to say to add
to that, I wrote down a note as you're talking
that we need to really let go, not fake let go.
So you know, we can say like, yeah, like I'm
here if you want to talk whatever, like and act
like we're all cool. We got you know, it's fine.
(40:40):
You know, we're not invested. But if we still are
really like have this energy that's like grasping, like you know,
they can sense that we really need them to come
talk to us, they won't come talk to us. So
part of the under the hood work for us is
really genuinely meeting it when we walk away, not doing
it out of anger or like showing how strong we are,
(41:02):
but really being at piece with the fact that like, hey,
I'm here, I love this human, I am here. If
they want my insight, my advice. If they want to
share with me. I'd be so honored if they come
share with me, and I'm okay if they don't, because
this is their life, right, that's where we want to
ultimately be because that feels like freedom. That feels like
(41:22):
freedom for our kids, it feels like freedom for us.
And that's when our connection can just get so much
more authentic and stronger.
Speaker 1 (41:30):
I think, hmm, yeah, yeah, Well we can just be
there without an agenda. When it's genuine connection, it changes
the relationship. It helps their nervous system. You know, what
you were talking about is when you don't really let
go and there's that energy. That's our nervous systems sort
of talking to each other. Right, we're putting out a
certain energy. We might be trying to hide it, but
(41:53):
it's still felt, it's still there, it's still in the air.
I love that you added that because I think it's
really important. We are way out of time.
Speaker 2 (42:03):
We're just scratching the surface.
Speaker 1 (42:05):
We have so much more to talk about, so hopefully
we'll do maybe a part three and a part four.
Having these conversations with you has been truthfully liberating for
me to just be completely open and honest. We don't
have it figured out. We I mean me and my family.
I'm not speaking for you. We don't have it figured out.
We're working on it, but we have the solid foundation
(42:28):
that we need to be able to be what my
particular kid needs me to be. For the most part, right,
I have problems where you know, I have times where
the emotions well up and I freak out and I'm
not sure I'm doing the right thing or maybe I'm
failing them. But for the most part, I think we've
worked all these years on building that foundation by noticing
(42:48):
the nervous system, about seeing behavior as communication, all these things,
and we've worked on connection and relationship and so we'll
figure it out. Like I know that we'll figure it out.
It's all going to be okay. But just being really
transparent in these conversations has been such a relief for me.
It's a big exhale.
Speaker 2 (43:06):
Yeah, I feel the same. I feel the same, And
if I can just add like, I don't remember the
exact situation this summer, but I had a conversation with
my kiddo that I feel like I had been wanting
to have in some capacity for like four years and
(43:27):
it happened, and it was such an important moment for me,
and I just felt like, a all of this stuff that
we're doing, all the stuff that your listeners are doing,
the way we are getting curious about ourselves, we're showing
up for our kids, We're doing the work we are
in this right with our complex kids. It all pays off.
(43:51):
Like it's not about when, it's not we don't know
when the timeline all of that stuff, but all of
it matters. And I just I came out of that conversation.
I'm like, we are playing the longest possible game here,
But then you have moments like that and you're like, oh,
but it's totally worth it. And it was a conversation.
(44:13):
It wasn't like we like, you know, solve some mathematical whatever.
It was like it was a beautiful moment of connection
and relationship that just felt so special, Like I I'll
never forget that conversation. Right, So all the stuff that
we're doing, this is what we're working towards. Right, It's
(44:33):
just a very long game. And you know, I hope
that that's helpful for listeners to think again when the
timelines are so unconventional we want to see results. We
want to know that there were things are moving in
that direction. And so just to kind of maybe reset
what success looks like and what we're working towards can
be helpful.
Speaker 1 (44:53):
Yeah. For me, success in parenting is the relationship that
I have with my kids totally, especially now that they're older.
You know, could run off and cut me out. I
don't want that, and I'm glad they don't want that, right,
you know. And sometimes it's difficult when you have young
adults are still at home and you know, it's it's
a totally different dynamic. And like when we bought this house,
(45:14):
these kids were small. We never imagined being for adults
in this house and how it really doesn't work for
us now, but we never thought about it, you know.
But like, having the relationship that I want with them
feels like the biggest win in parenting and the other
stuff eventually is gonna work out. We're gonna work at it,
(45:38):
We're gonna work on it, right, but it's gonna work
out because we have that connection, we have that relationship,
and that I mean, that's a relief too. Honestly, it's
a big relief totally. Well, if you are listening to
this episode, Please go to parenting adh sheet and auts
dot com to get the show notes. We will link
(46:00):
up to part one of this conversation. If we have
more future parts of this conversation, I will be sure
to link them up for you there as well. And
I really thank you for listening and WI thank you
for coming as your authentic self and sharing all the hard,
uncomfortable bits. It's been so much fun to just be
(46:20):
so real.
Speaker 2 (46:22):
I appreciate you too, like I wouldn't. Yeah, it's like
you're like, I don't know. I just want to share
and open up with you. I think we have. It's
nice that we're in this together. Yeah, in so many ways.
So thank you for the conversation.
Speaker 1 (46:35):
Its great, awesome. I will see everybody in the next episode.
Take good care. I see you. You're doing hard and
meaningful work and you don't have to do it alone.
If you found this episode helpful, share it with someone
who needs it and leave a quick review so others
can find this support too. When you're ready for next steps,
(46:55):
the Regulated Kids Project is here with the tools, coaching
and can community to help you raise a more regulated,
resilient child. Get more info at Regulated kids dot com,
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