"It wasn't a demand, it was just a request. What's so hard about this?" If you’ve thought that about your own kid, you’re not alone, and your nervous system reaction makes complete sense.
In this episode, I sit down with Stacey Curnow, LCMHC, founder of Asheville Family Counseling, to talk about PDA: what it is, what it isn't, and why she reframes it as a persistent desire for autonomy rather than a pathology. We get into why even a gentle request can register as a threat to a PDA kid's nervous system, and why fight, flight, freeze, and collapse are really all the same signal wearing different clothes.
Stacey walks through Dr. Ross Greene's collaborative and proactive solutions model, why "I won't" is so often actually "I can't," and how slicing requests thinner, asking instead of telling, and choosing connection over compliance changes the outcome of these moments. We also talk about the nervous system math nobody warns you about: when your child's nervous system gets overwhelmed, yours very often does too, and what it looks like to extend that same compassion to yourself.
Stacey also shares what it looked like to raise her own PDA-profile son, who is now 21 and reflects that same curiosity and compassion right back to her.
If you have a kid who hears "put your shoes on" as a demand, or you are tired of power struggles that feel like two dueling solutions instead of one shared one, this conversation will give you a different lens and some real, doable next steps for moving from power struggles to partnership.
Come listen.
Not sure where to start with your neurodivergent child? Take the free quiz: parentingadhdandautism.com/quiz
Ready to stop collecting strategies and start getting real support? Apply for the SIGNAL Parenting Program: parentingadhdandautism.com/signal
More from this episode: parentingadhdandautism.com/364
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/beautifully-complex--6137613/support.
You can find additional resources at parentingadhdandautism.com. It's not just about the struggles, it’s about progress, one step at a time.
In this episode, I sit down with Stacey Curnow, LCMHC, founder of Asheville Family Counseling, to talk about PDA: what it is, what it isn't, and why she reframes it as a persistent desire for autonomy rather than a pathology. We get into why even a gentle request can register as a threat to a PDA kid's nervous system, and why fight, flight, freeze, and collapse are really all the same signal wearing different clothes.
Stacey walks through Dr. Ross Greene's collaborative and proactive solutions model, why "I won't" is so often actually "I can't," and how slicing requests thinner, asking instead of telling, and choosing connection over compliance changes the outcome of these moments. We also talk about the nervous system math nobody warns you about: when your child's nervous system gets overwhelmed, yours very often does too, and what it looks like to extend that same compassion to yourself.
Stacey also shares what it looked like to raise her own PDA-profile son, who is now 21 and reflects that same curiosity and compassion right back to her.
If you have a kid who hears "put your shoes on" as a demand, or you are tired of power struggles that feel like two dueling solutions instead of one shared one, this conversation will give you a different lens and some real, doable next steps for moving from power struggles to partnership.
Come listen.
Not sure where to start with your neurodivergent child? Take the free quiz: parentingadhdandautism.com/quiz
Ready to stop collecting strategies and start getting real support? Apply for the SIGNAL Parenting Program: parentingadhdandautism.com/signal
More from this episode: parentingadhdandautism.com/364
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/beautifully-complex--6137613/support.
You can find additional resources at parentingadhdandautism.com. It's not just about the struggles, it’s about progress, one step at a time.
Listen
Watch
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Curiosity and compassion are really key, and if we can
just keep leaning into that over and over again for ourselves,
for our child, we're going to get through it. You know,
It's just it's a lot, but we're going to get
through it. And that's what I want is to really
send this message and we can figure this out together.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
Welcome to Beautifully Complex, where we unpack what it really
means to parent neurodivergent kids with dignity and clarity. I'm
Penny Williams, and I know firsthand how tough and transformative
this journey can be. Let's dive in and discover how
to raise regulated, resilient, beautifully complex kids together. Oh and
(00:39):
if you want more support, join our free community at
hub dot beautifully complex dot life. Welcome back everybody. I
am really honored to have with me Stacy Kernow, and
we're going to talk about PDA, what PDA is, what
(01:00):
PDA isn't, and how to really determine or start to
determine if that might be the right fit for your
kid or if it's not. Really but Seec, will you
start by letting everybody know who you are and what
you do. Then we'll dive into it.
Speaker 1 (01:18):
Yes, thank you so much. Again, it's such an honor
to be here and a guy. I'm Stacy Kerno. I'm
the founder of Asheville Family Counseling. We like to call
ourselves a one stop shop for all of your family's
needs because we do the couples counseling, the family counseling,
the individual counseling, child counseling, parent coaching, and we have
(01:40):
a very attachment base. Again, are the theoretical framework that
we lean into is attachment theory, this idea that human
beings are attachment creatures, and we do best when we're
in relationship, when we're in healthy relationships that honor our autonomy,
that honor our interconnectedness. And so I also mainly provide
(02:05):
family and couples counseling. I'm not doing so much individual
counseling right now because again I see, we get the
most traction when we do it together, because so many
of us are caring what I call these kind of
invisible scripts from what we learned from our parents, and
they're not serving us, not in our love relationships, not
in our familiar relationships. So I really enjoy that aspect,
(02:27):
and again, just so happy to be here.
Speaker 2 (02:31):
Yeah, I'm so glad that you're here, and I'm really
happy to have this conversation because we haven't talked about
PDA enough on this podcast, which is kind of surprising
because I think we're recording three hundred and sixty four number. Like,
we've had a lot of conversations, so it's definitely time
past time to talk about it. Let's start with just
(02:52):
the basics. For anybody who doesn't know what PDA is,
tell us what it stands for, tell us a little
bit about it.
Speaker 1 (03:01):
So PDA stands for a pathological demand avoidance. The label
was created in the eighties by a researcher, by a
woman researcher in England who was looking and working researching
kids with autism, and so she created this idea of
PDA as a subset of autism. And this is really
(03:24):
widely accepted label. Again, it's not diagnostic, it's not even
in their equivalent in England of the DSM of a
diagnostic manual, and it crossed the pond. You know, maybe
ten years ago we started hearing more about PDA in
counseling circles and then, as many people have probably noticed,
(03:48):
now everyone's talking about PDA, and so I think why
it's gotten traction is because for me, as awful as
you know, a manned avoidance, you know, a pathological demand
avoidance sounds when you really understand it, you see it
as a very I think it's a compassionate lens to
(04:09):
look at children because it's really identifying that this is
a nervous system response to a perceived threat. So again
it's it's right there in the acronym. If we kind
of lean into even a more compassionate kind of framework,
(04:30):
which is you know, many counselors and he included everyone
at AFC has kind of reframed PDA as persistent desire
for autonomy, because what we see again and again is
we get this nervous system overwhelmed, this this reaction when
a child perceives a threat. And again, if we really
(04:53):
drill down, it's usually this threat to their sense of autonomy. Right,
all human beings have of a strong desire, a need.
It's a basic human need for autonomy, right, that ability
to make choices based on our own will, our own
meeting the challenges that we're facing. We want to feel
(05:17):
like we're included in the solution to the problems that
are affecting us. That to me is autonomy. And so
when we look at these kids who are having these
big reactions, and again, if it's a threat, right, if
it's a perceived threat, and we're vertebrates like I mean
a snail, you know, like or snake, it's what I
(05:37):
meant to say to a higher level primate. If they
perceive a threat, they react in one of four ways, right,
fight flight, freeze, or collapse or a piece sometimes it's
called the piece, the people pleasing the collapse. And that's
what we see in these kids. So again, I think
that's why it really resonates, is that we're accepting that
(05:59):
it's a a nervous system response to a perceived threat,
and especially to autonomy. These are the behaviors that we're seeing.
They would fall into one of those categories of fight, flight, freeze,
or collapse or peace.
Speaker 2 (06:13):
M Yeah, I'm so glad that you're talking about the
nervous system because it's so important for all the other pieces.
As parents of NERD virgin kids, we often worry about
social things and school success and executive function and all
of these skills that are lagging and stuff. But it
all starts with the nervous system. We have to be
(06:36):
regulated first.
Speaker 1 (06:38):
Yes, we can't learn right. We're wanting right, and these
kids want to learn these skills too, They want to
get along well in their families and their social systems,
and they can't learn in that state of nervous system overwhelm. Again,
we understand the brain pretty well to know that that
executive functioning happens in the prefrontal cortex, but that will
(07:00):
flip when right, we won't have access to that problem
solving logical you know, ability to project the consequences of
our actions if we're scared or overwhelmed or exhausted. So again,
the more that we can orient to the nervous system
and understand that this is a reasonable, to be expected response,
(07:25):
then we can start to solve the problems that are
creating that nervous system overwhelm. And then we're completely changing
the trajectory. We're no longer seeing those concerning behaviors.
Speaker 2 (07:37):
Yeah, let's talk a little bit about what qualifies as PDA.
What would help to determine if that label, for lack
of a better word, is appropriate for a person's particular child.
Speaker 1 (07:56):
Yes, so it's such a good question because I really
align and we'll talk more about my affiliation with doctor
Ross Green and his collaborative and proactive solutions model, and
I really lean into doctor Green. So he has a
non diagnostic stance because his philosophy and I really agree
(08:20):
with it, is that diagnoses can help us have a
shared language between clinicians and parents and their children, and
so it kind of gets us all in the same page.
So that's very helpful and it may even inform our
treatment decisions. But at the end of the day, a
diagnosis a laborer doesn't solve problems. And these kids who
(08:41):
are getting this label for example, that doesn't help them.
What helps them is helping them solve the problems and
then again including them in the decisions and the solutions
that are going to impact their lives. So I'm going
to just, I guess to push back a little bit
that I don't want to get. I mean, there is
(09:01):
like a string of kind of checkboxes. Again, if you
see a child who has difficulty with transitions, who has
these big reactions to a request again like a demand.
I like to call it a request because no parent
feels like they're making demands when they ask their child
(09:21):
to put on their shoes so they can go to school. Right.
But then the child again perceives that as a demand
that overwhelms them. And again from a parent's point of view,
they would be like, it wasn't a demand, it was
just a request. What's so hard about this? But again,
that's what I would like the parents to ask the
child rather than to think this shouldn't be so hard
(09:45):
and just focus on getting the shoes on or saying
that behavior of you know, crying, fighting, running away is
not okay. But to ask the child, I see you're
having a hard time putting on your shoes. What's making
that hard? Yeah, And then it would be a totally
(10:08):
different outcome for the parent and for the child. Ye.
Parents intuitively know again we were talking about this before
that you know, they'll say, oh, my kid has PDA,
and so I'm much more interested in what it means
to them, and I generally align with it, because again
it seems to be they're more compassionate, like, oh, my
kid's nervous system gets so overwhelmed in the face of demands, right,
(10:33):
And I think that's perfectly acceptable. Again, we can all
look at a checklist, but that's what resonates with parents,
and that's what gets us focused on what's getting in
the way when a parent makes a request and this
child has this big response to it. So d is
that Okay? If we just kind of say, I think
(10:56):
people know yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:58):
I think that the labels a diagnose is their information.
They might open doors to different ideas or therapies or
insurance coverage things like that. Right, they might get us
an IP and school, but it's really about how it's
impacting that individual kid.
Speaker 1 (11:17):
Yes, and the family and others, right, the teachers, the friends,
because that's again what we're looking at when we're looking
at the behaviors that we find concerning. The adults find concerning,
it's because it impacts the kid or others right again,
the family, the sibling, a classmate, the teacher. So again
(11:39):
we want to acknowledge, like, we want to address this
and if it helps us organize around this idea, right,
this label, this profile because again it's not even accepted diagnosis.
It wouldn't be something that would you know, reach that
level of IEP. But again, teachers recognize it too. Teachers
(12:00):
educators would often see, oh yeah, I ask him to
fill out the math worksheet and he says he's not
doing it, or he tears it up, or he hides
under his desk. Right. So again they see it that
he's having difficulty right meeting a demand or request, and
they want to help.
Speaker 2 (12:19):
Yeah. Yeah, and it feels so I'm at a loss
for words like it feels I think often disrespectful to parents.
It feels like a personality problem. Sometimes some would label it.
And I'm thinking, like, how do we get to a
(12:40):
place where we can understand it and reframe it, where
we can get unstuck from this feeling that it creates
for us the adult on the receiving end, to actually
understanding it so that we can be helpful, so that
we can coexist in a way that we're for everyone.
Speaker 1 (13:01):
Yeah. I think the first thing is again I've mentioned
having this compassionate lens towards kids many times, and I
also want to be clear that we need this compassionate
lens for the parents as well, because our nervous systems
are always talking to each other, and so if the
child's nervous system gets overwhelmed, it's very likely ours is
(13:23):
going to get overwhelmed as well. Right, So many parents
I've had this experience where I'm doing great, like I'm
having a great warning and then I asked my son
to put his shoes on, and he has a meltdown,
and all of a sudden, I'm having a terrible day. Right,
all of a sudden, I'm met having difficulty coping. And
so I want us to really include parents, the teachers,
(13:43):
any caregivers into this compassionate lens that we're all doing
the best we can with you know, a tricky nervousist,
limited resources, right, fatigue, you know, all of the issues.
So again I would want the parent to again to
have this compassion lens for themselves and say, gosh, I
(14:06):
see my kids having a hard time. Now I'm having
a hard time, Like what do we both need to
kind of meet this moment with compassion and once we
can do that, right, Because again, so often parents, again
with so many responsibilities spread so thin, they're thinking, oh
my gosh, this kid has to get on their shoes,
they have to get on the bus, or else I'm
(14:28):
going to miss work and then I'm going to get
in trouble with my boss, and then that affects my livelihood. Right,
they're able to project the consequences of all these actions
which the kid, by definition, without having the fully foreigned
prefrontal cortex, they aren't able to extrapolate like a parent does.
So what I really encourage is we want to get
better and better about solving these problems proactively, because in
(14:52):
the moment when the child is having the meltdown about
putting their shoes on, it's not very likely that we're
going to be able to solve this problems because again,
the kid's not going to have access to the creative
problem solving. So it's almost like we have to make
a note of it, like, oh, I'm noticing that my
kid is having a hard time putting on their shoes.
We're not going to be able to address it in
(15:14):
this moment, But later, in a quiet moment, I'm going
to say, Hey, I noticed you had difficulty putting on
your shoes. What's hard about that for you? And they'll
tell you, like if they really perceive that curiosity, that compassion,
they will tell you, and then you have the opportunity
to share your concern. Right, my concern is when it's
hard for you to put on your shoes in the morning,
(15:36):
it impacts all of us, right, you getting to school,
and me getting to work on time. So I'd really
like us to solve this together, right, like what would
help you feel supported and getting your shoes on, and
what would help me feel supported in us all getting
out the door by eight am? Yeah? And then again
as adults, we have you know, much more you know,
(16:00):
access to a creative problem solving mindset, and that we
would also want to think, Okay, even if we've kind
of problems solved for this, and the kid is like, well,
maybe if I didn't have to put on my shoes
until I got in the car, or maybe if I
had slip on shoes instead of shoes with laces. Right, again,
we would problem solve for that. But then the adult,
(16:21):
I would hope, I would encourage, Right, this is what's
going to avoid the meltdown for the child and the
parent you know again is fast losing capacity to also say, okay,
but if they can't put on their shoes in the morning,
can I send them to school and socked feet? I
mean that would be something again that they could explore,
(16:41):
like with the with the school, with the administration, with
the teachers. I found that teachers and school administrators they
are much more flexible than we think, right, and in
the adult's mind, the parents' mind in the time, it's
like he has to put on his shoes if he's
going to go to school. But we've literally asked teachers,
(17:01):
is it okay if they come in their socks are yah,
that's fine, you know, like as long as he gets TOSCO,
we just want him in school, right, So we would
not want not being able to put on issues in
the morning as a reason, right. But again, adults kind
of apparents kind of limit the available solutions very often.
So I like to really like what I call kind
of increase, you know, like when we're stressed, it's like
(17:26):
the lens the camera aperture really narrows, and I'm always
looking for ways how can we expand the aperture. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:35):
Yeah, getting really creative is something we talk about all
the time because if we are stuck within those systemic parameters,
we can't step outside of that. And that's what our
kids need. Like I think all kids need that, but
especially neurodivergent kids who experience the world differently. And we
(17:59):
have so many systems like education that are fairly inflexible,
and we're trying to figure out ways to help our
kids to be able to succeed in those environments. Also,
(18:27):
I've had a lot of parents lately ask me, how
do I ask my kid with PDA profile to get
something done? If I can make a demand, how do
I ask them to get something done? And they're wanting
to then convey that to the school and to teachers
(18:47):
and have everybody on the same page. But it gets
really tricky. I think it's hard to ask someone to
do something without any sort of threat to their autonomy, right,
because it's our idea, it's our need. So what advice
do you have around that?
Speaker 1 (19:08):
Well, that's where I even call it when even the
conversation is perceived as a demand, right, like the parents like, hey,
can we talk about what's hard about this so we
can solve it together? And again, many PDA kids will
just say no right from the jump, because again, even
the conversation, even asking for the conversation is a demand.
(19:28):
And so in those cases I just say, again, we
just have to slice it thinner and slice it thinner,
so we're not necessarily like saying, hey, we need to
talk about this. But it could be on the drive
to get Boba te it could be you know, as
we're in the bookstore picking out books, you know, like
(19:49):
again like in that really almost like quiet, calm, connected
moment saying then, hey, I've noticed that this is hard
for you, like when I ask you to do something
right again insert whatever that parent is like, I can't
even ask them right. So we're going to first address
what makes it hard for them to have that conversation.
(20:09):
And again I'm always thinking what would make it easier,
what would make it easier, and so oh yeah, for
just having a nice time driving together, and I can
just gently ask, right, like, hey, I've noticed, what do
you think? Yeah, that goes a lot better than hey,
we got to sit down and talk about this right,
you know. Again, the gain will feel very often blindsided,
(20:29):
and that's in the immediate like I'm in trouble and
I can't yeah. And that's again the real framework shift
is that we want to see these kids, not as
I won't right, Like what we're hearing is no, I
won't do that, No I won't have the conversation. You
can't make me right. But what I really hear is
(20:50):
I can't right. I'm feeling overwhelmed. This is going too fast,
It's too much, right, I need us to slow down.
I need more space. And so I always thinking about
particularly with these kids, but it works with anyone, Like
how can we slow this down? How can we create
more space less pressure? Yeah, and so we have to
(21:11):
again just slow it down.
Speaker 2 (21:14):
Yeah. Yeah, And it's not patronizing. I think a lot
of times we fear if we do that, especially with
older kids teenagers, that they're going to feel like we're
babing them. But we're not really talking about like shifting
how we speak to them in a sense, We're just
(21:36):
giving more space for them to think and respond. Yes,
we're slowing down what we're saying, We're slowing down what
we're asking for. Right, So maybe I don't need you
to do three chores right now in one breath. I'm
going to ask for the first step of one, right, Yes,
And I think that's what you were talking about when
you said slice it thinner and thinner is like, how
(21:59):
how much can we backap? Sort of?
Speaker 1 (22:01):
Yes? Yeah, I say a relationship is a living laboratory, right,
And if we go in as scientists and sort of
have this hypothesis that maybe slower is better, maybe giving
more options, maybe really asking what's hard about meeting this
expectation that I have, maybe then it will go better,
and then I just try right, and then I still
(22:24):
have the kid, right. My son is now twenty one,
but as you know, still has a PDA profile. And
what I would notice is again that conversations went better
in the car than if I was going into this
room and saying, hey, remember you were supposed to do
that thing, right. It went much better if I was
in the car and saying, hey, I've noticed you've had
(22:45):
a hard time doing this thing. What's hard about that?
And then what also helped was me sharing my concern
because again, human beings. What I said about we're attachment creatures,
were tribal creatures, right, we want to get along, we
want to be in a community, and as human beings,
we're very compassionate. We really do care about the people
(23:09):
who are in our lives. And again I hear over
and over again it seems like he doesn't care at all,
and I'm like, Nope, that's just the nervous system. Say no,
he really does care, And how do we create the
conditions for that care to come through? Now? Having said that,
I think compassion is absolutely innate, that we do care
about people, don't. I think empathy is a skill that
(23:33):
ability to take the perspective of another person and really
understand their experience. That takes practice, because again that's a
higher level like prefrontal cortech skill to again take on
the perspective and understand someone. But how would they understand
how would they develop empathy one if they hadn't experienced
(23:56):
it themselves, if they hadn't experienced their PA, parents and
their caregivers, their teachers as empathetic as saying hey, I
can see something as hard for you, and I want
to understand and I want to help you solve this problem.
So when you start modeling empathy to your kids, that's
when I see them learn it very quickly and then
(24:18):
reflect it back to you. So again in this problem
solving model, this collaborative and proactive solutions model that doctor
Green developed, that's why step one is the empathy step.
It's again trying to understand your child's perspective, what's making
it hard for them. But then step two is you
getting to share your concern about why this is hard
(24:39):
for you. And again PDA kids respond really well to this.
I mean again, all human beings do, and so This
is where we get to highlight like PDA kids are
human beings who care about others, but it makes more
sense to them almost than other kids because PDA kids,
again I think, have a it's the autonomy piece, but
(25:00):
it's also a justice piece, like they really again if
it seems unfair to them, and again that's what I
would say, where they don't feel like they have the
autonomy to choose and make a decision that impacts them,
so they're very interested to hear how their actions actually
(25:21):
impact others. And I can't tell you the number of
times I've talked to these PDA kids with their parents
and then really saying, oh, I didn't know that when
I didn't do the chore that it meant that you
were doing it, and yeah, that's not fair, right, And
so yeah, I'm now more interested in being involved in
(25:42):
a solution that means it's easier for me to do
it because I really don't want you to have to
do it. And that's what we miss again when we
kind of get into these power struggles, right, which I
call is you know, struggles like dueling solutions like the
parents saying you have to and basically the kid's solution
is like, no, I don't, right, and so now, how
(26:04):
if we back it up again and slow it down,
we'll see these kids really do want to be included
in the decisions, but also understand how their actions are
impacting the people they care about.
Speaker 2 (26:18):
Yeah, and when you're in a collaborative family or when
you're in kind of this classroom culture at school that's
more collaborative, everybody just feels better. Everyone feels like they matter,
everyone feels seen and heard and understood. That makes a
world of difference for our nervous system. Yeah, of course
(26:40):
it does. Of course, it feels safe to be in
an environment. Yep, yep. Like it all just boils back
down to that nervous system. Everything it always does.
Speaker 1 (26:51):
There's I mean, every time, without exception, if we're having
a concerning behavior, there's a nervous system that is under stress,
and so we have to become call it stress detectives.
We need to just again see the behaviors communication almost
like the smoke, Like there's a fire somewhere, I'm not
sure right, Like if a house is filling up with smoke,
(27:13):
we're not exactly sure where the fire is, and we
don't even know if that smoke is coming from, you know,
an actual raging inferno or a piece of burnt toast,
But we want to get curious about it, like what
is causing the smoke, and then I want to address
you know, whatever's in fire on fire, and then we're
not going to have that smoke anymore. So again to
(27:34):
truly see the behavior's information. And again in particular with
these concerning behaviors, that is, it's the smoke, it's not
the fire. And if we just try to extinguish the smoke,
we're still not going to address the fire. And so
that's why we don't want to focus on the behavior
and extinguishing the behavior with say punishments and rewards, right,
(27:56):
that's generally what people rely on because again what I
said in the very begin this is what we learned
as children. And again some children, I was one of
those people that I was able to respond to a
punishment or reward in a way that got my parents
the teachers the result that they wanted. But these PDA kids,
that's not even a choice, right, And so punishments and
(28:19):
rewards even seem stressful, even seem like a demand, because
again it's like if that would work it would, but
it doesn't, and so it just increases this feeling of
unsafety that I set up to fail basically is how
these kids feel certainly not understood, certainly not supported and protected.
Speaker 2 (28:40):
Yeah, are there some ways that we can foster and
nurture a sense of autonomy just in kind of our
day to day lives, like the things that were already doing.
How do we help kids feel more and more like
they have autonomy?
Speaker 1 (28:54):
Well, so, again we just need to break down what
autonomy is. And again that's the ability to have a say,
right to act on your own will, your own volition
in a way, right that impacts your life. Like whatever
the decision is being made, and you understand that it's
impacting their life, then you get really curious again about
(29:17):
making sure they have choice, right and real choices. You know,
I buck up against you know very often. You know
it's like do you want to wear the blue shoes
or the brown shoes? Right, I'm giving you choice? You know,
like you want to eat the chicken or the broccoli? Right,
I'm giving you choice. And again kid might be like,
neither one of those options works for me, but the
(29:38):
parent thinks, well, I'm giving you a choice, and so
again it's really having those conversations about what would help
you feel included, right, meaning we're honoring your autonomy in
these decisions that are impacting your life. And it takes
time and energy to have those conversations. And this is
(29:59):
a and where I've heard doctor Green say choose your
heart because again it's it's hard to find the time
and the energy to have these conversations with kids, including
them and the decisions that impact their lives. But it's
also really hard to manage the crises that result when
we don't include them in the decisions that impact their lives.
(30:22):
So again, choose your heart, right, Like, make the time
and the energy to have those conversations, or make the
time and energy to manage the explosions as a result
of not having those conversations.
Speaker 2 (30:36):
Yeah, I call it front loading sometimes, like if you
do more now, there's more work in the beginning, but
it's going to give you time and energy and sanity
back on the other side. Right, Sometimes we have to
really push to be able to create the space to
do it ahead of time, but we're going to get
(30:58):
it back later.
Speaker 1 (30:59):
Yeah, it's like what I said about the living laboratory,
like if we were to switch the you know, the
hypothesis from Oh, if I just impose enough structure, enough
punishments and rewards, then I'll get the behavior I want.
Just kind of look at it, like is that working
for you? Are you actually getting the outcome? If you
were a real scientist, you wouldn't keep doing the thing
(31:19):
that didn't get you the outcome you wanted. You would
actually change, right, It's called the independent variable. You would
change that which you were doing to get that dependent
variable to get that outcome that you want. So again
I'm just like keep you know, like keep trying. But again,
that takes a lot of energy to parents who are
already spread so thin. So that gets back to again
(31:41):
what I was saying earlier. Can parents have so much
compassion for themselves about how much they're caring and how
there's so little time, so little energy, so little support
in our society for these parents to do this really
hard work and when we can say no, it doesn't
you know, at least that meets our experience. I think
(32:04):
when we give parents the message that they should be
doing better when they're doing the best they can, that's
very destructive, right of course, that would contribute to their
own nervous system over whileman collapse. But if we can
even say, hey, I see you're working so hard. I
know we're not getting the outcomes that you want, and
I'm so sorry. Really we're all really spread so thin.
(32:27):
I mean, I think even that is like, Okay, that's real.
You know, that's really in my experience and there's something
that you know it's again we can see in the
brain with these fMRI studies, when we just name someone's experience,
whether it's a child or a parent, they can relax
a little bit more. And the more we can be relaxed,
the more that frees up that prefrontal cortex to find
(32:51):
a solution.
Speaker 2 (32:54):
There's so much more here to unpack. I know we're
already running out of time. So is there anything else
that you want parents or educators who are listening to
know specific to PDA or parenting NERD vergent kids.
Speaker 1 (33:10):
Yeah. I think if I were to leave people with
one thing, it's to really develop again I call the
stress detective or the scientist, but it really boils down
to curiosity, right again, to be curious about your own experience, Like,
what's making this hard for me when my child is
showing these concerning behaviors and then kind of care for
that the best way that you can. But then turn
(33:31):
that lens again. We naturally turn it to the kids
so much, but I think it's kind of putting that
oxygen mask on ourselves before we help the child. But
curiosity and compassion are really key. And if we can
just keep leaning into that over and over again for ourselves,
for our child, we're going to get through it. You know.
It's just it's a lot, but we're going to get
(33:54):
through it. And that's what I want is to really
send this message of we can figure this out together.
Speaker 2 (34:00):
Yeah, yeah, and you really will get through it. Like
I'm living proof that you will get through. I Mean,
there were so many days where I thought, oh I can't.
I just can't do one more I just can't do
one more day and one more hour, you know, And
then I turn around and I'm like, Oh, my kid's
an adult and things are so much easier, and how
(34:21):
did this happen? You know, But it does happen. We
do get it does happen the same.
Speaker 1 (34:26):
Right. My son is now twenty one, and again he
is so much more likely because I will more often
default to that nervous system overwhelmed, because again that was
my default, that's what I learned from my parents. But he,
having been introduced to this model, this new way of
doing things from an earlier age, he defaults more to
(34:47):
the compassion and curiosity for me, Like, what's hard, mom,
Do you want to do the sotions thing? Let's figure
it out together. So again, it's worth it. It's worth
it to put in in the front end, and you
will benefit in your child of benefit on the back end,
for sure.
Speaker 2 (35:02):
Yeah, let everybody know where they can find you online
or social media. Yes, I'll link it up in the
show notes as well, but great and tell everyone who's listening.
Speaker 1 (35:11):
Yes, well, I again Ashelfamilycounseling dot com is the best place.
We have so many resources, so many free resources. One
that I think you'll make available to your listeners. I
call it defiance decoder. So it's really looking at all
of those behaviors and all the things our kids say
and then kind decoding it, translating it so that we
(35:31):
can understand it better. Because in the moment of the overwhelm,
we're also feeling overwhelmed. So I think if folks just
make it to Ashevillefamilycounting dot com. They're going to find
all of these free resources that I hope they find
very helpful.
Speaker 2 (35:46):
Thank you so much for being here, for sharing some
of your personal experiences and your wisdom and your time
with us. I know it's valuable, and I know everyone
listening has learned at least one night that they can
take with them and create some positive change. So I
appreciate you.
Speaker 1 (36:06):
Oh, thank you so much. I appreciate you in your
community so much as an honor to be here. And
take care.
Speaker 2 (36:11):
I'll see everybody next time. Take good care. I see you.
You're doing hard and meaningful work and you don't have
to do it alone. If you found this episode helpful,
share it with someone who needs it and leave a
quick review so others can find this support too. When
you're ready for next steps, the Regulated Kids Project is
(36:33):
here with the tools, coaching, and community to help you
raise a more regulated, resilient child. Get more info at
regulated kids dot com
Curiosity and compassion are really key, and if we can
just keep leaning into that over and over again for ourselves,
for our child, we're going to get through it. You know,
It's just it's a lot, but we're going to get
through it. And that's what I want is to really
send this message and we can figure this out together.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
Welcome to Beautifully Complex, where we unpack what it really
means to parent neurodivergent kids with dignity and clarity. I'm
Penny Williams, and I know firsthand how tough and transformative
this journey can be. Let's dive in and discover how
to raise regulated, resilient, beautifully complex kids together. Oh and
(00:39):
if you want more support, join our free community at
hub dot beautifully complex dot life. Welcome back everybody. I
am really honored to have with me Stacy Kernow, and
we're going to talk about PDA, what PDA is, what
(01:00):
PDA isn't, and how to really determine or start to
determine if that might be the right fit for your
kid or if it's not. Really but Seec, will you
start by letting everybody know who you are and what
you do. Then we'll dive into it.
Speaker 1 (01:18):
Yes, thank you so much. Again, it's such an honor
to be here and a guy. I'm Stacy Kerno. I'm
the founder of Asheville Family Counseling. We like to call
ourselves a one stop shop for all of your family's
needs because we do the couples counseling, the family counseling,
the individual counseling, child counseling, parent coaching, and we have
(01:40):
a very attachment base. Again, are the theoretical framework that
we lean into is attachment theory, this idea that human
beings are attachment creatures, and we do best when we're
in relationship, when we're in healthy relationships that honor our autonomy,
that honor our interconnectedness. And so I also mainly provide
(02:05):
family and couples counseling. I'm not doing so much individual
counseling right now because again I see, we get the
most traction when we do it together, because so many
of us are caring what I call these kind of
invisible scripts from what we learned from our parents, and
they're not serving us, not in our love relationships, not
in our familiar relationships. So I really enjoy that aspect,
(02:27):
and again, just so happy to be here.
Speaker 2 (02:31):
Yeah, I'm so glad that you're here, and I'm really
happy to have this conversation because we haven't talked about
PDA enough on this podcast, which is kind of surprising
because I think we're recording three hundred and sixty four number. Like,
we've had a lot of conversations, so it's definitely time
past time to talk about it. Let's start with just
(02:52):
the basics. For anybody who doesn't know what PDA is,
tell us what it stands for, tell us a little
bit about it.
Speaker 1 (03:01):
So PDA stands for a pathological demand avoidance. The label
was created in the eighties by a researcher, by a
woman researcher in England who was looking and working researching
kids with autism, and so she created this idea of
PDA as a subset of autism. And this is really
(03:24):
widely accepted label. Again, it's not diagnostic, it's not even
in their equivalent in England of the DSM of a
diagnostic manual, and it crossed the pond. You know, maybe
ten years ago we started hearing more about PDA in
counseling circles and then, as many people have probably noticed,
(03:48):
now everyone's talking about PDA, and so I think why
it's gotten traction is because for me, as awful as
you know, a manned avoidance, you know, a pathological demand
avoidance sounds when you really understand it, you see it
as a very I think it's a compassionate lens to
(04:09):
look at children because it's really identifying that this is
a nervous system response to a perceived threat. So again
it's it's right there in the acronym. If we kind
of lean into even a more compassionate kind of framework,
(04:30):
which is you know, many counselors and he included everyone
at AFC has kind of reframed PDA as persistent desire
for autonomy, because what we see again and again is
we get this nervous system overwhelmed, this this reaction when
a child perceives a threat. And again, if we really
(04:53):
drill down, it's usually this threat to their sense of autonomy. Right,
all human beings have of a strong desire, a need.
It's a basic human need for autonomy, right, that ability
to make choices based on our own will, our own
meeting the challenges that we're facing. We want to feel
(05:17):
like we're included in the solution to the problems that
are affecting us. That to me is autonomy. And so
when we look at these kids who are having these
big reactions, and again, if it's a threat, right, if
it's a perceived threat, and we're vertebrates like I mean
a snail, you know, like or snake, it's what I
(05:37):
meant to say to a higher level primate. If they
perceive a threat, they react in one of four ways, right,
fight flight, freeze, or collapse or a piece sometimes it's
called the piece, the people pleasing the collapse. And that's
what we see in these kids. So again, I think
that's why it really resonates, is that we're accepting that
(05:59):
it's a a nervous system response to a perceived threat,
and especially to autonomy. These are the behaviors that we're seeing.
They would fall into one of those categories of fight, flight, freeze,
or collapse or peace.
Speaker 2 (06:13):
M Yeah, I'm so glad that you're talking about the
nervous system because it's so important for all the other pieces.
As parents of NERD virgin kids, we often worry about
social things and school success and executive function and all
of these skills that are lagging and stuff. But it
all starts with the nervous system. We have to be
(06:36):
regulated first.
Speaker 1 (06:38):
Yes, we can't learn right. We're wanting right, and these
kids want to learn these skills too, They want to
get along well in their families and their social systems,
and they can't learn in that state of nervous system overwhelm. Again,
we understand the brain pretty well to know that that
executive functioning happens in the prefrontal cortex, but that will
(07:00):
flip when right, we won't have access to that problem
solving logical you know, ability to project the consequences of
our actions if we're scared or overwhelmed or exhausted. So again,
the more that we can orient to the nervous system
and understand that this is a reasonable, to be expected response,
(07:25):
then we can start to solve the problems that are
creating that nervous system overwhelm. And then we're completely changing
the trajectory. We're no longer seeing those concerning behaviors.
Speaker 2 (07:37):
Yeah, let's talk a little bit about what qualifies as PDA.
What would help to determine if that label, for lack
of a better word, is appropriate for a person's particular child.
Speaker 1 (07:56):
Yes, so it's such a good question because I really
align and we'll talk more about my affiliation with doctor
Ross Green and his collaborative and proactive solutions model, and
I really lean into doctor Green. So he has a
non diagnostic stance because his philosophy and I really agree
(08:20):
with it, is that diagnoses can help us have a
shared language between clinicians and parents and their children, and
so it kind of gets us all in the same page.
So that's very helpful and it may even inform our
treatment decisions. But at the end of the day, a
diagnosis a laborer doesn't solve problems. And these kids who
(08:41):
are getting this label for example, that doesn't help them.
What helps them is helping them solve the problems and
then again including them in the decisions and the solutions
that are going to impact their lives. So I'm going
to just, I guess to push back a little bit
that I don't want to get. I mean, there is
(09:01):
like a string of kind of checkboxes. Again, if you
see a child who has difficulty with transitions, who has
these big reactions to a request again like a demand.
I like to call it a request because no parent
feels like they're making demands when they ask their child
(09:21):
to put on their shoes so they can go to school. Right.
But then the child again perceives that as a demand
that overwhelms them. And again from a parent's point of view,
they would be like, it wasn't a demand, it was
just a request. What's so hard about this? But again,
that's what I would like the parents to ask the
child rather than to think this shouldn't be so hard
(09:45):
and just focus on getting the shoes on or saying
that behavior of you know, crying, fighting, running away is
not okay. But to ask the child, I see you're
having a hard time putting on your shoes. What's making
that hard? Yeah, And then it would be a totally
(10:08):
different outcome for the parent and for the child. Ye.
Parents intuitively know again we were talking about this before
that you know, they'll say, oh, my kid has PDA,
and so I'm much more interested in what it means
to them, and I generally align with it, because again
it seems to be they're more compassionate, like, oh, my
kid's nervous system gets so overwhelmed in the face of demands, right,
(10:33):
And I think that's perfectly acceptable. Again, we can all
look at a checklist, but that's what resonates with parents,
and that's what gets us focused on what's getting in
the way when a parent makes a request and this
child has this big response to it. So d is
that Okay? If we just kind of say, I think
(10:56):
people know yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:58):
I think that the labels a diagnose is their information.
They might open doors to different ideas or therapies or
insurance coverage things like that. Right, they might get us
an IP and school, but it's really about how it's
impacting that individual kid.
Speaker 1 (11:17):
Yes, and the family and others, right, the teachers, the friends,
because that's again what we're looking at when we're looking
at the behaviors that we find concerning. The adults find concerning,
it's because it impacts the kid or others right again,
the family, the sibling, a classmate, the teacher. So again
(11:39):
we want to acknowledge, like, we want to address this
and if it helps us organize around this idea, right,
this label, this profile because again it's not even accepted diagnosis.
It wouldn't be something that would you know, reach that
level of IEP. But again, teachers recognize it too. Teachers
(12:00):
educators would often see, oh yeah, I ask him to
fill out the math worksheet and he says he's not
doing it, or he tears it up, or he hides
under his desk. Right. So again they see it that
he's having difficulty right meeting a demand or request, and
they want to help.
Speaker 2 (12:19):
Yeah. Yeah, and it feels so I'm at a loss
for words like it feels I think often disrespectful to parents.
It feels like a personality problem. Sometimes some would label it.
And I'm thinking, like, how do we get to a
(12:40):
place where we can understand it and reframe it, where
we can get unstuck from this feeling that it creates
for us the adult on the receiving end, to actually
understanding it so that we can be helpful, so that
we can coexist in a way that we're for everyone.
Speaker 1 (13:01):
Yeah. I think the first thing is again I've mentioned
having this compassionate lens towards kids many times, and I
also want to be clear that we need this compassionate
lens for the parents as well, because our nervous systems
are always talking to each other, and so if the
child's nervous system gets overwhelmed, it's very likely ours is
(13:23):
going to get overwhelmed as well. Right, So many parents
I've had this experience where I'm doing great, like I'm
having a great warning and then I asked my son
to put his shoes on, and he has a meltdown,
and all of a sudden, I'm having a terrible day. Right,
all of a sudden, I'm met having difficulty coping. And
so I want us to really include parents, the teachers,
(13:43):
any caregivers into this compassionate lens that we're all doing
the best we can with you know, a tricky nervousist,
limited resources, right, fatigue, you know, all of the issues.
So again I would want the parent to again to
have this compassion lens for themselves and say, gosh, I
(14:06):
see my kids having a hard time. Now I'm having
a hard time, Like what do we both need to
kind of meet this moment with compassion and once we
can do that, right, Because again, so often parents, again
with so many responsibilities spread so thin, they're thinking, oh
my gosh, this kid has to get on their shoes,
they have to get on the bus, or else I'm
(14:28):
going to miss work and then I'm going to get
in trouble with my boss, and then that affects my livelihood. Right,
they're able to project the consequences of all these actions
which the kid, by definition, without having the fully foreigned
prefrontal cortex, they aren't able to extrapolate like a parent does.
So what I really encourage is we want to get
better and better about solving these problems proactively, because in
(14:52):
the moment when the child is having the meltdown about
putting their shoes on, it's not very likely that we're
going to be able to solve this problems because again,
the kid's not going to have access to the creative
problem solving. So it's almost like we have to make
a note of it, like, oh, I'm noticing that my
kid is having a hard time putting on their shoes.
We're not going to be able to address it in
(15:14):
this moment, But later, in a quiet moment, I'm going
to say, Hey, I noticed you had difficulty putting on
your shoes. What's hard about that for you? And they'll
tell you, like if they really perceive that curiosity, that compassion,
they will tell you, and then you have the opportunity
to share your concern. Right, my concern is when it's
hard for you to put on your shoes in the morning,
(15:36):
it impacts all of us, right, you getting to school,
and me getting to work on time. So I'd really
like us to solve this together, right, like what would
help you feel supported and getting your shoes on, and
what would help me feel supported in us all getting
out the door by eight am? Yeah? And then again
as adults, we have you know, much more you know,
(16:00):
access to a creative problem solving mindset, and that we
would also want to think, Okay, even if we've kind
of problems solved for this, and the kid is like, well,
maybe if I didn't have to put on my shoes
until I got in the car, or maybe if I
had slip on shoes instead of shoes with laces. Right, again,
we would problem solve for that. But then the adult,
(16:21):
I would hope, I would encourage, Right, this is what's
going to avoid the meltdown for the child and the
parent you know again is fast losing capacity to also say, okay,
but if they can't put on their shoes in the morning,
can I send them to school and socked feet? I
mean that would be something again that they could explore,
(16:41):
like with the with the school, with the administration, with
the teachers. I found that teachers and school administrators they
are much more flexible than we think, right, and in
the adult's mind, the parents' mind in the time, it's
like he has to put on his shoes if he's
going to go to school. But we've literally asked teachers,
(17:01):
is it okay if they come in their socks are yah,
that's fine, you know, like as long as he gets TOSCO,
we just want him in school, right, So we would
not want not being able to put on issues in
the morning as a reason, right. But again, adults kind
of apparents kind of limit the available solutions very often.
So I like to really like what I call kind
of increase, you know, like when we're stressed, it's like
(17:26):
the lens the camera aperture really narrows, and I'm always
looking for ways how can we expand the aperture. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:35):
Yeah, getting really creative is something we talk about all
the time because if we are stuck within those systemic parameters,
we can't step outside of that. And that's what our
kids need. Like I think all kids need that, but
especially neurodivergent kids who experience the world differently. And we
(17:59):
have so many systems like education that are fairly inflexible,
and we're trying to figure out ways to help our
kids to be able to succeed in those environments. Also,
(18:27):
I've had a lot of parents lately ask me, how
do I ask my kid with PDA profile to get
something done? If I can make a demand, how do
I ask them to get something done? And they're wanting
to then convey that to the school and to teachers
(18:47):
and have everybody on the same page. But it gets
really tricky. I think it's hard to ask someone to
do something without any sort of threat to their autonomy, right,
because it's our idea, it's our need. So what advice
do you have around that?
Speaker 1 (19:08):
Well, that's where I even call it when even the
conversation is perceived as a demand, right, like the parents like, hey,
can we talk about what's hard about this so we
can solve it together? And again, many PDA kids will
just say no right from the jump, because again, even
the conversation, even asking for the conversation is a demand.
(19:28):
And so in those cases I just say, again, we
just have to slice it thinner and slice it thinner,
so we're not necessarily like saying, hey, we need to
talk about this. But it could be on the drive
to get Boba te it could be you know, as
we're in the bookstore picking out books, you know, like
(19:49):
again like in that really almost like quiet, calm, connected
moment saying then, hey, I've noticed that this is hard
for you, like when I ask you to do something
right again insert whatever that parent is like, I can't
even ask them right. So we're going to first address
what makes it hard for them to have that conversation.
(20:09):
And again I'm always thinking what would make it easier,
what would make it easier, and so oh yeah, for
just having a nice time driving together, and I can
just gently ask, right, like, hey, I've noticed, what do
you think? Yeah, that goes a lot better than hey,
we got to sit down and talk about this right,
you know. Again, the gain will feel very often blindsided,
(20:29):
and that's in the immediate like I'm in trouble and
I can't yeah. And that's again the real framework shift
is that we want to see these kids, not as
I won't right, Like what we're hearing is no, I
won't do that, No I won't have the conversation. You
can't make me right. But what I really hear is
(20:50):
I can't right. I'm feeling overwhelmed. This is going too fast,
It's too much, right, I need us to slow down.
I need more space. And so I always thinking about
particularly with these kids, but it works with anyone, Like
how can we slow this down? How can we create
more space less pressure? Yeah, and so we have to
(21:11):
again just slow it down.
Speaker 2 (21:14):
Yeah. Yeah, And it's not patronizing. I think a lot
of times we fear if we do that, especially with
older kids teenagers, that they're going to feel like we're
babing them. But we're not really talking about like shifting
how we speak to them in a sense, We're just
(21:36):
giving more space for them to think and respond. Yes,
we're slowing down what we're saying, We're slowing down what
we're asking for. Right, So maybe I don't need you
to do three chores right now in one breath. I'm
going to ask for the first step of one, right, Yes,
And I think that's what you were talking about when
you said slice it thinner and thinner is like, how
(21:59):
how much can we backap? Sort of?
Speaker 1 (22:01):
Yes? Yeah, I say a relationship is a living laboratory, right,
And if we go in as scientists and sort of
have this hypothesis that maybe slower is better, maybe giving
more options, maybe really asking what's hard about meeting this
expectation that I have, maybe then it will go better,
and then I just try right, and then I still
(22:24):
have the kid, right. My son is now twenty one,
but as you know, still has a PDA profile. And
what I would notice is again that conversations went better
in the car than if I was going into this
room and saying, hey, remember you were supposed to do
that thing, right. It went much better if I was
in the car and saying, hey, I've noticed you've had
(22:45):
a hard time doing this thing. What's hard about that?
And then what also helped was me sharing my concern
because again, human beings. What I said about we're attachment creatures,
were tribal creatures, right, we want to get along, we
want to be in a community, and as human beings,
we're very compassionate. We really do care about the people
(23:09):
who are in our lives. And again I hear over
and over again it seems like he doesn't care at all,
and I'm like, Nope, that's just the nervous system. Say no,
he really does care, And how do we create the
conditions for that care to come through? Now? Having said that,
I think compassion is absolutely innate, that we do care
about people, don't. I think empathy is a skill that
(23:33):
ability to take the perspective of another person and really
understand their experience. That takes practice, because again that's a
higher level like prefrontal cortech skill to again take on
the perspective and understand someone. But how would they understand
how would they develop empathy one if they hadn't experienced
(23:56):
it themselves, if they hadn't experienced their PA, parents and
their caregivers, their teachers as empathetic as saying hey, I
can see something as hard for you, and I want
to understand and I want to help you solve this problem.
So when you start modeling empathy to your kids, that's
when I see them learn it very quickly and then
(24:18):
reflect it back to you. So again in this problem
solving model, this collaborative and proactive solutions model that doctor
Green developed, that's why step one is the empathy step.
It's again trying to understand your child's perspective, what's making
it hard for them. But then step two is you
getting to share your concern about why this is hard
(24:39):
for you. And again PDA kids respond really well to this.
I mean again, all human beings do, and so This
is where we get to highlight like PDA kids are
human beings who care about others, but it makes more
sense to them almost than other kids because PDA kids,
again I think, have a it's the autonomy piece, but
(25:00):
it's also a justice piece, like they really again if
it seems unfair to them, and again that's what I
would say, where they don't feel like they have the
autonomy to choose and make a decision that impacts them,
so they're very interested to hear how their actions actually
(25:21):
impact others. And I can't tell you the number of
times I've talked to these PDA kids with their parents
and then really saying, oh, I didn't know that when
I didn't do the chore that it meant that you
were doing it, and yeah, that's not fair, right, And
so yeah, I'm now more interested in being involved in
(25:42):
a solution that means it's easier for me to do
it because I really don't want you to have to
do it. And that's what we miss again when we
kind of get into these power struggles, right, which I
call is you know, struggles like dueling solutions like the
parents saying you have to and basically the kid's solution
is like, no, I don't, right, and so now, how
(26:04):
if we back it up again and slow it down,
we'll see these kids really do want to be included
in the decisions, but also understand how their actions are
impacting the people they care about.
Speaker 2 (26:18):
Yeah, and when you're in a collaborative family or when
you're in kind of this classroom culture at school that's
more collaborative, everybody just feels better. Everyone feels like they matter,
everyone feels seen and heard and understood. That makes a
world of difference for our nervous system. Yeah, of course
(26:40):
it does. Of course, it feels safe to be in
an environment. Yep, yep. Like it all just boils back
down to that nervous system. Everything it always does.
Speaker 1 (26:51):
There's I mean, every time, without exception, if we're having
a concerning behavior, there's a nervous system that is under stress,
and so we have to become call it stress detectives.
We need to just again see the behaviors communication almost
like the smoke, Like there's a fire somewhere, I'm not
sure right, Like if a house is filling up with smoke,
(27:13):
we're not exactly sure where the fire is, and we
don't even know if that smoke is coming from, you know,
an actual raging inferno or a piece of burnt toast,
But we want to get curious about it, like what
is causing the smoke, and then I want to address
you know, whatever's in fire on fire, and then we're
not going to have that smoke anymore. So again to
(27:34):
truly see the behavior's information. And again in particular with
these concerning behaviors, that is, it's the smoke, it's not
the fire. And if we just try to extinguish the smoke,
we're still not going to address the fire. And so
that's why we don't want to focus on the behavior
and extinguishing the behavior with say punishments and rewards, right,
(27:56):
that's generally what people rely on because again what I
said in the very begin this is what we learned
as children. And again some children, I was one of
those people that I was able to respond to a
punishment or reward in a way that got my parents
the teachers the result that they wanted. But these PDA kids,
that's not even a choice, right, And so punishments and
(28:19):
rewards even seem stressful, even seem like a demand, because
again it's like if that would work it would, but
it doesn't, and so it just increases this feeling of
unsafety that I set up to fail basically is how
these kids feel certainly not understood, certainly not supported and protected.
Speaker 2 (28:40):
Yeah, are there some ways that we can foster and
nurture a sense of autonomy just in kind of our
day to day lives, like the things that were already doing.
How do we help kids feel more and more like
they have autonomy?
Speaker 1 (28:54):
Well, so, again we just need to break down what
autonomy is. And again that's the ability to have a say,
right to act on your own will, your own volition
in a way, right that impacts your life. Like whatever
the decision is being made, and you understand that it's
impacting their life, then you get really curious again about
(29:17):
making sure they have choice, right and real choices. You know,
I buck up against you know very often. You know
it's like do you want to wear the blue shoes
or the brown shoes? Right, I'm giving you choice? You know,
like you want to eat the chicken or the broccoli? Right,
I'm giving you choice. And again kid might be like,
neither one of those options works for me, but the
(29:38):
parent thinks, well, I'm giving you a choice, and so
again it's really having those conversations about what would help
you feel included, right, meaning we're honoring your autonomy in
these decisions that are impacting your life. And it takes
time and energy to have those conversations. And this is
(29:59):
a and where I've heard doctor Green say choose your
heart because again it's it's hard to find the time
and the energy to have these conversations with kids, including
them and the decisions that impact their lives. But it's
also really hard to manage the crises that result when
we don't include them in the decisions that impact their lives.
(30:22):
So again, choose your heart, right, Like, make the time
and the energy to have those conversations, or make the
time and energy to manage the explosions as a result
of not having those conversations.
Speaker 2 (30:36):
Yeah, I call it front loading sometimes, like if you
do more now, there's more work in the beginning, but
it's going to give you time and energy and sanity
back on the other side. Right, Sometimes we have to
really push to be able to create the space to
do it ahead of time, but we're going to get
(30:58):
it back later.
Speaker 1 (30:59):
Yeah, it's like what I said about the living laboratory,
like if we were to switch the you know, the
hypothesis from Oh, if I just impose enough structure, enough
punishments and rewards, then I'll get the behavior I want.
Just kind of look at it, like is that working
for you? Are you actually getting the outcome? If you
were a real scientist, you wouldn't keep doing the thing
(31:19):
that didn't get you the outcome you wanted. You would
actually change, right, It's called the independent variable. You would
change that which you were doing to get that dependent
variable to get that outcome that you want. So again
I'm just like keep you know, like keep trying. But again,
that takes a lot of energy to parents who are
already spread so thin. So that gets back to again
(31:41):
what I was saying earlier. Can parents have so much
compassion for themselves about how much they're caring and how
there's so little time, so little energy, so little support
in our society for these parents to do this really
hard work and when we can say no, it doesn't
you know, at least that meets our experience. I think
(32:04):
when we give parents the message that they should be
doing better when they're doing the best they can, that's
very destructive, right of course, that would contribute to their
own nervous system over whileman collapse. But if we can
even say, hey, I see you're working so hard. I
know we're not getting the outcomes that you want, and
I'm so sorry. Really we're all really spread so thin.
(32:27):
I mean, I think even that is like, Okay, that's real.
You know, that's really in my experience and there's something
that you know it's again we can see in the
brain with these fMRI studies, when we just name someone's experience,
whether it's a child or a parent, they can relax
a little bit more. And the more we can be relaxed,
the more that frees up that prefrontal cortex to find
(32:51):
a solution.
Speaker 2 (32:54):
There's so much more here to unpack. I know we're
already running out of time. So is there anything else
that you want parents or educators who are listening to
know specific to PDA or parenting NERD vergent kids.
Speaker 1 (33:10):
Yeah. I think if I were to leave people with
one thing, it's to really develop again I call the
stress detective or the scientist, but it really boils down
to curiosity, right again, to be curious about your own experience, Like,
what's making this hard for me when my child is
showing these concerning behaviors and then kind of care for
that the best way that you can. But then turn
(33:31):
that lens again. We naturally turn it to the kids
so much, but I think it's kind of putting that
oxygen mask on ourselves before we help the child. But
curiosity and compassion are really key. And if we can
just keep leaning into that over and over again for ourselves,
for our child, we're going to get through it. You know.
It's just it's a lot, but we're going to get
(33:54):
through it. And that's what I want is to really
send this message of we can figure this out together.
Speaker 2 (34:00):
Yeah, yeah, and you really will get through it. Like
I'm living proof that you will get through. I Mean,
there were so many days where I thought, oh I can't.
I just can't do one more I just can't do
one more day and one more hour, you know, And
then I turn around and I'm like, Oh, my kid's
an adult and things are so much easier, and how
(34:21):
did this happen? You know, But it does happen. We
do get it does happen the same.
Speaker 1 (34:26):
Right. My son is now twenty one, and again he
is so much more likely because I will more often
default to that nervous system overwhelmed, because again that was
my default, that's what I learned from my parents. But he,
having been introduced to this model, this new way of
doing things from an earlier age, he defaults more to
(34:47):
the compassion and curiosity for me, Like, what's hard, mom,
Do you want to do the sotions thing? Let's figure
it out together. So again, it's worth it. It's worth
it to put in in the front end, and you
will benefit in your child of benefit on the back end,
for sure.
Speaker 2 (35:02):
Yeah, let everybody know where they can find you online
or social media. Yes, I'll link it up in the
show notes as well, but great and tell everyone who's listening.
Speaker 1 (35:11):
Yes, well, I again Ashelfamilycounseling dot com is the best place.
We have so many resources, so many free resources. One
that I think you'll make available to your listeners. I
call it defiance decoder. So it's really looking at all
of those behaviors and all the things our kids say
and then kind decoding it, translating it so that we
(35:31):
can understand it better. Because in the moment of the overwhelm,
we're also feeling overwhelmed. So I think if folks just
make it to Ashevillefamilycounting dot com. They're going to find
all of these free resources that I hope they find
very helpful.
Speaker 2 (35:46):
Thank you so much for being here, for sharing some
of your personal experiences and your wisdom and your time
with us. I know it's valuable, and I know everyone
listening has learned at least one night that they can
take with them and create some positive change. So I
appreciate you.
Speaker 1 (36:06):
Oh, thank you so much. I appreciate you in your
community so much as an honor to be here. And
take care.
Speaker 2 (36:11):
I'll see everybody next time. Take good care. I see you.
You're doing hard and meaningful work and you don't have
to do it alone. If you found this episode helpful,
share it with someone who needs it and leave a
quick review so others can find this support too. When
you're ready for next steps, the Regulated Kids Project is
(36:33):
here with the tools, coaching, and community to help you
raise a more regulated, resilient child. Get more info at
regulated kids dot com
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Betrayal Weekly
Betrayal Weekly is back for a new season. Every Thursday, Betrayal Weekly shares first-hand accounts of broken trust, shocking deceptions, and the trail of destruction they leave behind. Hosted by Andrea Gunning, this weekly ongoing series digs into real-life stories of betrayal and the aftermath. From stories of double lives to dark discoveries, these are cautionary tales and accounts of resilience against all odds. From the producers of the critically acclaimed Betrayal series, Betrayal Weekly drops new episodes every Thursday. If you would like to share your story, you can reach out to the Betrayal Team by emailing them at betrayalpod@gmail.com and follow us on Instagram at @betrayalpod and @glasspodcasts. Please join our Substack for additional exclusive content, curated book recommendations, and community discussions. Sign up FREE by clicking this link Beyond Betrayal Substack. Join our community dedicated to truth, resilience, and healing. Your voice matters! Be a part of our Betrayal journey on Substack.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com