Unlock the transformative power of improvisation in business and leadership with Tracy Shea Porter, CEO and co-founder of Yes Unlimited. Ever wondered how the principles of "Yes, And" could revolutionize your team dynamics and communication skills? Join us for an engaging conversation where Tracy shares her journey from an English major at the University of Toronto to a leader in applied improvisation. Expect to laugh as we reminisce about our English class escapades, setting the stage for a deeper dive into how improv can reshape everyday interactions.
We'll illustrate the profound impact of choosing "yes, and" over "no" or "yes, but" through personal anecdotes from our theater sports days and the Canadian Space Opera Company. Experience firsthand how these choices can either stifle or spark creativity and collaboration. We'll also reveal practical exercises you can implement immediately to enhance active listening, teamwork, and innovative thinking in your organization.
Marketing and sales professionals, this one's for you too! Discover how empathy and improv intersect to create more authentic and effective marketing strategies. Learn to move beyond traditional cold calls and foster genuine connections with clients. Real-life stories and exercises will showcase the transformative power of empathy in leadership and negotiation, emphasizing the importance of authentic communication in today’s AI-influenced world. Don’t miss out on these valuable insights that could elevate your business and personal interactions to new heights.
Eager to harness the power of Empathic Marketing to propel your business growth? Get your hands on my #1 Amazon Best Selling book, 'Empathic Marketing,' or book a '30-Minute Gap Analysis' session directly from my website: www.becausebusinessispersonal.com.
Discover a wealth of knowledge in our podcast archives at www.becausebusinessispersonal.com.
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Join our community and elevate your marketing game today!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey, welcome to the Because Business is Personal
podcast, the podcast whereempathy meets marketing strategy
.
I'm your host, mike Caldwell,but I'm also known as the
marketing medic.
Now, the reason for that isbecause, before becoming a
marketing strategist, I actuallyworked as a paramedic for 12
years.
It was during that time that Irealized how important it was to
(00:21):
truly understand the problemsyour patient was facing before
you started providing treatment.
And it's the same understanding, the same empathy, is just as
crucial when it comes tounderstanding our prospects and
making sales, and that's why, ineach episode, we'll dissect the
art of empathic marketing,exploring how top professionals
(00:44):
infuse empathy into theirstrategies to build stronger
relationships, boost their salesand make a lasting impact.
So buckle up and prepare toturn up the dial on your
marketing effectiveness.
Now let's get started with ourepisode.
Hey, everyone, welcome back toanother ever exciting episode of
(01:06):
Because Business is Personal.
Today I've got a fun guest thatI found on LinkedIn.
Her name is Tracy Shea Porter,and she is the CEO and
co-founder of yes Unlimited, andshe's the author of yes and
Business Evolution Improv Skillsfor Leadership and Life.
(01:28):
As an entrepreneur, facilitator, a speaker and a writer, tracy
has extensive experience in boththe business world and applied
improvisation.
Help me say that, tracy.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
Improvisation.
Speaker 1 (01:43):
Improvisation, improvisation.
We're improvising, there we go,I'm improvising as we go.
She designs and delivers improvtraining to a broad range of
diverse international clients.
So, tracy, super welcome tohave you here.
Speaker 2 (01:59):
Mike, I'm so excited.
I love your podcast focus.
Business is Personal.
It's amazing and true, right.
Speaker 1 (02:07):
Yeah, and since you are a diehard listener, you know
what the first question is.
The first question is becausebusiness is personal.
Please tell us something aboutyourself that is not business
related, but the audience wouldfind interesting.
Speaker 2 (02:23):
Right.
Well, one thing to know aboutme is that I have an English
degree from the University ofToronto and while I was working
full time, I did that degreeover a period of years and it
made the experience fantastic,because I really love reading
(02:46):
and studying, thinking andliterature, and that actually
explains why maybe I wrote abook eventually.
So that's one interesting pointabout me a humanities degree.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
Yeah, there's a funny story about English and myself
and a book.
Yeah, there's a funny storyabout English and myself in the
book.
Speaker 2 (03:05):
Yeah, okay.
Speaker 1 (03:05):
I was actually kicked out of my grade 13 English
class permanently.
So at the time you needed grade13 OAC English to get into
university.
But I was kicked out, thereason being because when we
came into class every morning,there'd be two words on the
board and one word you'd have tobreak up into its components
(03:26):
and make other words from thosetwo components.
And another word would be aword that we hadn't heard before
and we'd have to learn what itwas.
So one day we come into theroom and it's autograph on the
board and loquacious.
And so autograph.
We'd have to make words out ofauto and words out of graph.
Right and loquacious.
Anyway, because I was whatever17 years old and a complete
douchebag and, oh my gosh, as anadult now I'm so embarrassed by
(03:50):
this question.
But I raised my hand and Iasked my teacher I'm like sir,
why do we need to learn a wordlike loquacious?
It's not something we couldever use in everyday
conversation, because we're justgoing to come off as all
hoity-toity.
Because we're just going tocome off as all hoity-toity.
And I don't know my teacher much.
Well, I think I've beenneedling him all through the
year, but that day he was havinga bad day and he just lost it.
(04:12):
He was a balding guy and thisvein popped out of his head and
he just went on a rant Like whylearn anything?
Why even have schools right?
And he was 100% legit.
And oh my, have schools right.
And he was 100% legit.
And oh my gosh, I deservedeverything he threw at me.
But when he was done his rant,I said so, sir, would that be an
(04:38):
example of somebody beingloquacious?
Yeah, as it was coming out ofmy mouth, I knew where the line
was.
I knew I had crossed it.
He just pointed at the door andsaid out Forever Went to the gym
, played basketball with thebasketball crew and then went
back the next day and he's likeyou know what, mike?
There's just not enough room inthis class for both of us.
Speaker 2 (05:02):
Is that what he said?
Speaker 1 (05:03):
yeah, that is hilarious he's like and I can't
leave, I'm the teacher.
I'm like yeah, no, I get that.
So, uh, but luckily I went.
I went, I have a sign.
I went for a science degree.
All my other marks were, uh,were extremely high, so I was.
I still got accepted with thefull scholarship.
But, uh, yeah, I got intouniversity without an english
degree and then I felt reallyproud later.
I'm like, like, and I wrote twobooks.
(05:24):
I wonder if my English teacherhas any published books.
Speaker 2 (05:26):
There you go.
You know, this example, mike,while you're talking, is so
beautiful, leading into some ofthe conversation we're going to
have.
And I want to mention this toyour listeners right now.
Why this is so beautiful?
Because we totally improvisedthat I didn't even know I was
going to say the English degreething.
You didn't know you were goingto tell this story, right, and
(05:49):
what's really interesting aboutthis is that we just improvised.
Yes, and this is how peoplecommunicate every day in the
office, as they walk down theneighborhood, wherever they are
in the coffee shop, and thething I want to mention about it
is that as soon as someone sayssomething in this case I
mentioned the english degree itgets.
(06:11):
It will have you coming up withthe stories.
Your brain will filter through,okay, to the stories that
relate to what I was talkingabout, and in in your case, it
was this experience you had ingrade 13.
The reason that's reallyinteresting is that, if you
think about it, when you saysomething at work say at work
(06:33):
you have an idea Like why don'twe try a podcast for the office
or whatever?
Or why don't we bring beanbagchairs in?
Whatever it is, whoever'slistening, all the people
listening will each have theirown experience based on their
collection of stories andthoughts right you could say ego
, right, yep, and the beautifulthing is some self-awareness
(06:55):
around.
Hey, I'm experiencing that storythrough the lens of every
experience I've ever had.
Okay, and why that's importantis and I love how we started
that way, so impromptu, right.
Why that's important is becauseyou're having a response, your
(07:16):
very own personal response, toevery single thing you hear.
Speaker 1 (07:20):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (07:21):
Based on everything that's ever happened to you and
because everyone's response iscompletely different.
How do we disrupt both?
Tell our story because ourstory needs to be heard.
We want to tell our story andbe heard.
And how does improvimprovisation we're going to get
into disrupt our stories tooand help us create something new
(07:44):
.
So I love this beginning okaybecause it's kind of deep right
it's yeah, yeah uh, and my book?
in my book I talk about ego andconditioning and how we show up
with everything that everhappened to us in every
interaction okay and when westart to observe ourselves, we
can can go oh, I'm going to tellthis story and be aware that
(08:06):
we're doing that.
Speaker 1 (08:07):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (08:08):
Have awareness.
Speaker 1 (08:09):
Right.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
Hey, I'm telling a story from my collection of
stories, because this story youcould say triggered or and
triggers can be positive.
Speaker 1 (08:21):
They can be tricky.
It's a beautiful leadin totalking about improv and applied
improvisation actually, so staytuned for more of this, I think
it's interesting because, as Iwas starting to tell my story, I
was aware and what I was awareof is like I was aware that I'm
here to interview you, not tellmy own story.
So I was aware of that.
But then I weighed that with,this is kind of a funny story
(08:42):
that I think the the ourlisteners would like to hear.
So I'm you not tell my ownstory.
So I was aware of that, butthen I weighed that with, this
is kind of a funny story that Ithink the the our listeners
would like to hear.
So I'm like, okay, I am goingto tell this story, even though
I'm aware that it's not, youknow, part of the normal journey
of a pod of my podcast, where Ido ask the questions that you
provide the answers.
Speaker 2 (08:59):
Well, look how beautiful that co-creation was,
because now we're letting thereader, or the listener, the
reader in on something reallyinteresting that we all like.
I think that was perfect,beautiful, not that anything
needs to be perfect because,when it comes to failure is the
goal.
Speaker 1 (09:17):
So okay so before we move forward with that stuff I
want to go backward a little bitand like looking through your
book.
I see that you are one of thefirst people in Canada to get
your MBA remotely.
Is that correct?
Speaker 2 (09:33):
uh, mba remote?
Oh, I think.
Okay.
So if you, I think what you'rereferring to is that Ron Tite,
who did the introduction, maybe,to my book yes uh, rontite was
at Queen's University RightWhile I was working at Bell
Canada.
Oh okay, and what we were doingis we introduced the first
(09:53):
executive MBA program back inthe 90s.
Speaker 1 (09:57):
Okay, bell Canada did .
Speaker 2 (09:59):
Bell, canada, together with.
Queen's that's okay.
Bell Canada, together withQueen's, introduced the first
executive MBA program availableby video conferencing back in
the day.
Speaker 1 (10:11):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (10:11):
So Bell Canada had rooms across the country, video
conferencing rooms and all thestudents Queen students went to
rooms in various cities.
Speaker 1 (10:19):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (10:20):
And met with professors by video conferencing
.
Speaker 1 (10:24):
Oh, very cool.
Okay, and met with professorsby video conferencing.
Speaker 2 (10:26):
Oh, very cool, and we were talking about how that was
kind of improvised because itwas the first time we did
something like that.
Speaker 1 (10:31):
Yeah, so people didn't have to move to Kingston
to get their MBA for the firsttime.
Speaker 2 (10:35):
Right.
So Bell was the connectivity.
I was part of a communicationse-learning team and Ron at the
time was uh at queens as part oftheir business team.
And now ron, tight, uh, is abig entry.
Look him up.
He's got a new book coming out,the purpose of purpose, and I I
love one.
Speaker 1 (10:56):
Okay, mention that so I thought that was very
interesting, that whole way toget the nba.
But more interesting is youwere like Bell Canada worker by
day, improv comedian at night,and that's just crazy.
So what motivated you to doimprov for the humor's sake and
(11:17):
not for business back then?
Speaker 2 (11:19):
I love that.
I started doing improv in myearly 20s when I was also a
young professional woman,starting out in communications,
and I went down to theatersports at Harborfront in Toronto
.
Theater sports was a comedyshow where you watch people
perform doing skits and sketchesand basically it's kind of like
(11:43):
if you saw Whose Line Is itAnywhere, or Saturday Night Live
or Second City.
It's a show.
So it's a very comedyperformance and I went and got
hooked and took a class.
It's a community.
I never left the community andI was in a comedy group for 11
years called the Canadian SpaceOpera Company as well.
We did a lot of fringe showsand performances.
(12:06):
So yes, I had this hobby ofimprov while.
Speaker 1 (12:10):
I was a business person.
Speaker 2 (12:12):
And it really informed me beautifully in terms
of communication skills.
Speaker 1 (12:16):
Yeah, I think that's what's, and I could be wrong,
but I think that's whatseparates improv from the rest
of the comedians.
Like the rest of the comediansare just like these night
dwellers, like they come out atnight and they're all alone in
their little apartments duringthe day, but improv it does seem
to be like like SCTV seemedlike a tight family, like whose
line is it?
Anyway, they all seem likethey're a tight group and they
all do stuff together and theyseem like they are a really
(12:38):
tight knit group.
Speaker 2 (12:39):
It's true, because improv, you bond.
You bond because you'reco-creating together, on the
spot, something completely newright, and what happened with me
through the years is, uh,there's something called applied
improvisation and that's whatmy book's about and that's
that's what I now teach whereyou apply the tenets of improv,
(13:01):
like active listening, yes, andconversations that we're going
to get into in a minute, uh, andand different techniques, that
makes great sketch groups alsohappen to make great teams okay
yeah, so we're not.
We're not teaching people to beperformers when, when we use
applied improvisation, we'reteaching people to be better
(13:23):
communicators and open tocreativity.
Speaker 1 (13:26):
Okay, so I'm a little bit nervous, but let's do this,
let's try and exercise and seeif I I know nobody's good or bad
at this right, it'snonjudgmental, but let's see how
it goes.
Speaker 2 (13:42):
Well, I love what you just said, because that's one
of the things there's nomistakes, really, there's only
opportunities.
If we're not making mistakes,it's true, where's the growth?
Every day we're making a ton ofthem and it's really more
around maybe staying humble withthat.
So, when it comes to improv andwhat we're going to do, we're
going to do an exercise where wedon't know what we're going to
(14:04):
say.
Okay, we don't know what we'regoing to say.
I'll start it, this firstversion.
We're going to try out what theword no is like in an exercise.
Okay, so I'm going to say asentence very simple and you're
going to start your nextsentence, in response to me,
with the word no, okay, okay, soI'll say Jack decided to go to
(14:27):
the store.
Speaker 1 (14:29):
No, he just wanted to stay home.
Speaker 2 (14:32):
No, Jack took his dog on a long walk.
Speaker 1 (14:36):
No, he didn't, because it was raining.
Speaker 2 (14:39):
No, Jack decided to go on vacation and flew to
Hawaii.
Speaker 1 (14:44):
No, he couldn't, because it was COVID and the
airports were shut down.
Speaker 2 (14:47):
Right, okay, so no, like when we're using the word
no in this type of a scenario.
How did that feel to you?
Speaker 1 (14:57):
I didn't like it Right.
Speaker 2 (15:00):
Because what happens in a story like that?
Nothing's happening, it's notgoing anywhere, right?
Speaker 1 (15:05):
No, and it just.
I'm not an antagonistic person,and it just felt like I was
just being negative.
Speaker 2 (15:12):
Yeah.
So one thing I always letpeople know is that the word no
is really important when youwant to shut things down.
Speaker 1 (15:20):
Right.
Speaker 2 (15:20):
The word no is really important when you want
boundaries for yourself, andit's really important.
You know no means no.
However, no is not a great wordwhen you want to build teams
and say, and when you want tointeract, when you want to open
up and encourage people to haveconfidence and speak up in
meetings, when you want peopleto build trust and collaborate
(15:44):
with each other, no can reallyshut things down in a negative
way.
So I always mention that.
So let's try that story.
This time we're going to useyes, but Okay, okay.
So Jack decided to get in hiscar and go for a drive and you
can say yes, but yes, but beforehe went he decided to take his
(16:06):
dog with him.
Speaker 1 (16:08):
Yes, but the dog wasn't eating properly, so he
brought along some special foodoh okay, yes, but he didn't want
to give the food to the dogbefore the walk, just so he
wouldn't be sick during the walkyes, but uh, he loaded
(16:32):
everything in the car, includingthe dog, and decided to try
anyway, and so I'll stop thatthere.
Speaker 2 (16:38):
so how does the word but feel in that scenario?
Okay, so you tricked me.
Speaker 1 (16:47):
No, we're going to do that we have a third one coming
Exactly, and so I thought wewere going to do the no and then
the yes, and so it was funnybecause I know the next one is
yes and Right and I mistook yesbut, and so as we were going
through the yes but exercise, Iwas like this isn't any more fun
than the no.
Speaker 2 (17:06):
I love that.
Why do?
Speaker 1 (17:07):
we do.
I thought this was going to bethe good one and I'm like I
think we're doing this wrong.
Speaker 2 (17:14):
I'm improvising with you.
Speaker 1 (17:15):
Yeah, and it wasn't until the last.
Yes, but I'm like wait a minute, this isn't yes and this is yes
, but how did both feel?
I didn't like it.
Like I said, I was like no,what do you mean?
What do you mean?
Yes, but we had to bring foodfor Charlie.
Well, I didn't know where to gowith that, I couldn't build on
it.
I'm like, yes, but well, we hadto get the food after.
(17:36):
I couldn't build on that, Ididn't like it.
Speaker 2 (17:38):
Yeah, it's true, thank, that's amazing.
Yes, I threw yes, but in,because but is also a word
that's just shuts things down ina negative way.
You know, be aware.
I encourage everyone who'slistening to be aware when you
say but, so I start to want itnotice when you say but and how
it feels and how people respond.
Studies actually show thatwords like no and words like but
(18:02):
can really have a negativeeffect on your business and
personal relationships and, aswe know, they both intermingle.
Business is personal, so let'stry this whole thing again.
I'm going to start a differentstory with yes and Okay.
Speaker 1 (18:19):
Yes, and that last one was so authentic because,
like I said, I thought I thoughtyes, but was yes and I love it.
Speaker 2 (18:26):
Cool, let's go.
It's amazing, okay.
So jack decided to go on a walklet's keep it going.
Yes, and he brought his dog,charlie yes, and jack and
charlie went to the nearby park.
Speaker 1 (18:42):
Yes, and while they were there, they met two other
dogs that Charlie got to playwith.
Speaker 2 (18:46):
Yes, and the dogs ran all around the dog park and
they had a great time.
Speaker 1 (18:53):
Yes, and Mike was single and one of the other dog
owners was a single female.
So now Mike has a date afterthis dog walk dog owners was a
single female.
Speaker 2 (19:04):
So now Mike has a date after this dog walk.
Yes, and the girl and he tookthe dogs and they went to the
coffee shop and they decided tohang out and try some coffee
with their newfound friend dogs.
Speaker 1 (19:16):
Yes, and in the end the dogs were the flower girl
and ring bear for their weddingNicely done, mike.
Speaker 2 (19:22):
I love that.
Nicely done, mike, nicely done.
So how does yes and feel?
Speaker 1 (19:27):
That was fun.
I had so many ways to go withthat story.
I was like, when we're doingthe yes, but, and Charlie needed
to bring food I didn't knowwhat to say to that needed to
bring food, I didn't have any.
I didn't know what to say tothat.
Yeah.
But when you said and you know,and then they went to the dog
park, I was like, oh what, likethere's so many things that
(19:49):
could have happened at the dogpark, and so I had a lot of
options.
Speaker 2 (19:51):
It was good you did, it was amazing.
It was amazing.
And the other thing, so try.
I encourage people to try, yesand Try, try it out and see what
happens in your conversationswith people and how there's this
flow that starts to happen.
Or you can try out thisexercise with someone, because
what happens when you're doingimprov, mike, I'm sure you
noticed you cannot be anywhereexcept in the present moment.
Speaker 1 (20:12):
Right, yes, that's true you have to be listening.
Speaker 2 (20:15):
You must listen because you don't know what's
going to happen.
Okay, you don't know what'sgoing to happen.
So a lot of times when peopleare telling a story, you might
be thinking oh, when they finish, I get to tell my story, and
that your ego comes up with thebox of thoughts right, which is
totally natural, normal, and youwant that to happen.
(20:37):
We need our ego.
I want to make it clear the egois not a bad thing, it's a good
thing.
Otherwise we'd be walkingaround the streets doing all
kinds to make it clear the egois not a bad thing, it's a good
thing.
Otherwise we walking around thestreets, you know, doing all
kinds of havoc.
So the ego keeps us in check,the ego keeps us safe.
Ego we need the ego okay it's.
We're in a world where the egosrun amok a little bit, so what
we want to do is disrupt alittle bit with something new,
(20:58):
to create space and presence.
And this creates a bonding whenyou do this with your teammates
or anyone, because suddenlyyou're in the moment co-creating
something together.
Speaker 1 (21:10):
Okay, so that brings me to my next question.
So I've seen SCTV and I've seenyou know whose line is it and I
could see how improv could besuper funny.
It is super funny, right, yeah,with Colin Mochrie and that
crew, but how does it apply tobusiness?
I don't see the link there.
Speaker 2 (21:25):
I love that you're asking that question.
Okay, so back to appliedimprovisation.
So let's say I'm working with ateam of it could be 20 or 200
people.
Let's say I have 20 people andeveryone.
If I have a small group,everyone might be in a circle
standing.
If I have a small group everyonemight be in a circle standing
and there'd be a facilitator.
I'm the facilitator in thisscenario and I would encourage
(21:50):
people to do simple exercises.
So we're not saying, here,we're going to create scenes and
you're going to be a performer.
We would do an exercise likethe one we just did.
After some warm-ups and soforth, we would get to an
exercise like no, yes and yes,and, and it's all about doing a
simple story where people canexperience the experiential
nature of improv.
(22:10):
And then it's all about thedebrief afterward where we how
did that feel?
How can that help you nowcommunicate more effectively
with your teammates and open upto better listening skills?
By the way, I don't mind sayingthat listening skills is
considered the number one areathat leaders need to work on.
(22:31):
Okay, listening to theirteammate, instead of coming in
and saying, well, we're going todo everything my way and no,
we're not listening to yourideas.
And going to do everything myway and no, we're not listening
to your ideas.
And you know they give kind ofa lip service to yeah, that's a
good idea, no, we've always doneit this way or whatever, right.
(22:52):
So yes, and is an effectivecommunication tool to help
people listen, give and receive.
So, for example, the yes meansI'm listening, I'm receiving,
I'm accepting, acknowledging andhearing you, and the end is I'm
speaking up, building on whatyou're saying, connecting,
inspiring.
So the bottom line is that,through this giving and
(23:13):
receiving, going back and forth,you might arrive at something
new, and I'm thinking about thepolarization of the world when I
say that, like, instead of I'mright, you're wrong, instead of
my way or the highway it's, I'mgoing to suspend judgment.
And, by the way, it's reallyimportant to know it doesn't
mean you have to agree.
(23:33):
So, for example, maybe you andI have very different ideas
about something.
However, we're going to, yes,end this, we're going to agree
to suspend judgment and listenand hear one another and give
respect, even if we don't agree.
How powerful is that Right?
Speaker 1 (23:50):
Yeah, yeah, I've got a really good example of
listening skills.
So I was on, I was beinginterviewed on another podcast,
yes, and we had a set ofquestions prior going in.
But when I started the podcastbefore we went on air, I'm like,
and we had a set of questionsprior going in, but when I
started the podcast before wewent on air, I'm like I like to
have a kind of conversational,you know, and go back and forth
oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, that'sdefinitely how I do it.
(24:11):
So we're talking about my thingempathic marketing and so I
said something like oh, butthere's that people can do to
really capture their audience'sattention.
And she responded with the yeah, yeah, yeah, got it, got it.
And I was like you got what?
Like I said, I lobbed one toyou Like there's one thing
(24:32):
people can do to capture youraudience's attention.
She's like yeah, yeah, yeah, Igot it.
Like, no, because I didn't tellyou what it was.
I want to know what it was.
You weren't listening.
Like I wanted to have aconversation with her and so I
left it to her for her to say oh, what is that?
One thing, right.
But she didn't say that becausethe whole time I was talking
she was looking at her notes,she was in her head, she wasn't
(24:54):
hearing me at all.
She's like oh, he's donetalking.
Speaker 2 (25:03):
Next question right, right, yes, yeah, like I've
never even listened to thatpodcast because I just feel it
was so terrible well, you know,that's a really good example of
someone not really focused onwhat they're doing, and it
happens all the time, right?
One of the things I like aboutyou the work you're doing too
mike with marketing and so forthis, first of all, empathetic
(25:23):
marketing.
I love this whole idea ofempathy and I'm really curious
about that because empathy is abig improvisation tool with you
if you're listening, activelylistening.
And I'm curious because I'mgoing to talk about marketing
and sales for a sec.
Tell me a little.
I am curious.
I want to just know for aminute about the marketing and
(25:44):
the empathy piece how that workstogether for you.
Speaker 1 (25:47):
Yeah, it's, it's.
Empathy just meansunderstanding, and so you just
need to understand your audienceand you need to communicate
with them, yes, and like in theway they want to be communicated
to Right.
You can't just like that womanwho interviewed me.
She told me what she wanted tosay.
Speaker 2 (26:08):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (26:08):
Right, she wasn't, I wasn't involved in that
conversation at all, right.
And so when you're trying tosell this to somebody,
especially now and I'm, I'm, I'm, I love artificial intelligence
, use it.
I love artificial intelligence,use it every day.
I'm not anti-AI, but as we getmore towards AI and everything's
roboticized, more we're losingthat personal touch.
It's going to be greater andgreater, and I think there's
(26:31):
going to be a yearning for thatauthenticity and human
connection, and that's where theempathy comes in, and so you
need to have empathy inmarketing if you want your
business to survive forward.
Speaker 2 (26:41):
Right, otherwise it feels like selling.
It feels like right, it's not.
You're not really listening toyour clients.
What they need, what they wantwhere they're at, what their
values are, yeah you just that.
I love that, uh, very much.
I don't mind saying, when youmention ai, we call ourselves
the other ai, appliedimprovisation.
Oh right, yeah, we callourselves the Other AI, which is
(27:03):
the human connection part.
Oh, cool yeah so I love that andyou know I was thinking about
your book because I really lovethat focus.
And I, in my career I mentioned, I've been doing the business
world and improv all the wayalong.
I've been in marketing and I'vebeen in sales.
Speaker 1 (27:23):
Right.
Speaker 2 (27:23):
And so one of the things, the areas I like to use
improv for is because, as youknow so well, marketing and
salespeople have differentbrains at work right, and
different goals, motives.
Marketing is building messagingin a brand, it's slower's
thoughtful right, and sales ishow fast can we make this happen
(27:44):
?
We have revenue targets now,now.
Now, right, yeah, right.
Speaker 1 (27:49):
I'm sure you ran into that yourself well, I am, I am,
I think I'm a brilliantmarketer.
Yes, in all modesty, but I amthe world's worst person at
sales, because I do not want toask you for anything.
Like I just I don't want you to.
I don't want to ask you foranything, but what I want is for
you to ask of me.
(28:09):
Right, it's like oh, empathicmarketing.
That sounds to trace.
How, how can, how could, howcould you work with us to help
us increase our sales?
I want you to ask that question.
I don't want to say, hey, tracy, like would you be willing to
hire me to work with your team?
Like I can't ask you that.
I can't sell you on that.
I need to get you enticed andinterested so that you're like
(28:31):
oh, mike, I read your book andthis is brilliant.
You can really help our team.
How can we hire you?
Like that's, that's how I getthe jobs.
I can't ask to be hired.
Speaker 2 (28:39):
Well, I love you know what I love that, and the
reason I love that is becauseI'm a natural marketer and I'm
like you.
That's how I started my career,so I really relate to marketing
people and market.
I was in marketingcommunications for years and
then I had a little bit of aswitch up.
I ended up actually doingbusiness to business, cold
(29:00):
calling.
I never in my I never wouldhave imagined that I would be
doing that.
However, I did.
Speaker 1 (29:07):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (29:11):
And what I learned through the experience of being
in marketing and then also insales is you're using different.
There's different brains,different accessing different
parts of your brains to dodifferent jobs, different tasks,
and I found that I was reallygood at B2B calling, appointment
setting because of my marketingbackground and I wasn't salesy.
Speaker 1 (29:33):
Right.
Speaker 2 (29:34):
I was kind of like authentic and interested in
empathy and hearing.
I used a lot of activelistening and that's when I
realized I was actuallyimprovising, I was using my
improv background.
So now the reason I mentionedthat is if you're working in a
company, there's a few improvand sales go together really
(29:54):
well because you teach people tolisten, like a marketer would,
if you will listen, listen towhat the the person on the other
side of the phone saying don'tjust come in and do your, your
spiel, don't just come in and dosome kind of speech so just to
interject really quickly,because that's what I hate is
the cold calls where I say hello, like hi, this is so and so,
(30:18):
from vacations, vacations, andwe have blah, blah, blah, blah,
blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,blah, blah, and I quite often
put the phone down and 10minutes later they don't know
I'm not there anymore.
Speaker 1 (30:26):
I'm just like I don't care, I'm not going to buy from
them and I hope if I wastetheir time then they won't call
me back.
But they'll talk for 10 minuteswithout knowing if I'm there.
And I'm assuming you did not dothat when you did B2B cold
calling.
Speaker 2 (30:40):
Absolutely not.
In fact, the first thing Iwanted to do was qualify and, by
the way, business to businessis a little different than
calling, of course.
Calling someone at their home,because you're calling a
business is calling anotherbusiness, which is a little more
acceptable, I'd say, than whenyou call people at their home,
is tricky these days becausethere's so much you know you
(31:01):
don't know who's calling youanymore at home.
So, if you know, you don't knowwho's calling you anymore.
So if you're calling someone attheir business, you might
qualify right off the bat with aquestion like hi, are you the
person in charge of xyz?
Do you work with xyz?
You want to qualify right, getand figure out very quickly.
Oh, if you can help each otherand that's how you look at it
with authentic marketing andsales.
You look right back to what yousaid, mike I, because I really
(31:21):
do believe that empathy is Ihear you, it's yes and it's yes,
and I'm listening, I hear you,I want to learn about you, and
then you have a back and forthand an outcome.
So that's how I believemarketing and sales can meet and
understand one another moreeffectively.
Of course, we're just touchingthe surface of that, however,
(31:44):
through improv and yes, and, andyou know, the whole act of
listening, building, empathy,perspective taking and of course
it's thinking on your feetskills.
Speaker 1 (31:54):
Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah .
I'm sure you've had a lot ofthese, but could you give me an
example of like one aha momentduring a corporate training
event where you really connectwith the audience and made some
sort of difference?
Speaker 2 (32:07):
Well, I can think of so many.
One that I love is I wasworking with 30 salespeople
Interestingly, they were retailsalespeople and we were doing a
two day event that includedroleplaying, all kinds of
different improv exercises tohelp people kind of stretch
their comfort zone, get intostorytelling.
So at the beginning of day oneI went in and did kind of
(32:31):
sometimes I do something aboutnonverbal communications, like
spread your arms, try differenteye contact scenarios, try
different postures, and I didone where spread your arms and
say I'm grateful, because itactually changes the brain and
changes how you feel in themoment.
It can really create a sense ofgratitude.
(32:52):
Gratitude's great and we canaccess that gratitude.
Just spread your arms for 20seconds and say I'm grateful.
And the next day, after thefull day of training, I came
back the next day and as Iwalked in, the whole circle was
there and they all spread theirarms and said I'm grateful.
All the way it was really movingbecause, they had already been
(33:13):
through, you know, a couple ofdays of training and here they
were ready to be grateful forempathy and thinking on your
feet, skills and yes, and so itwas beautiful.
Speaker 1 (33:27):
That is cool.
How does improv help individualleaders or team members show up
as a better communicator?
Speaker 2 (33:35):
Right?
Well, the first thing thatcomes to mind is this whole when
you're a leader, you mightbelieve that you have to have
all the answers, or you mightbelieve that you're in charge of
everything and that you need tohave all the ideas.
I'm going to focus on divergentand convergent thinking for a
(33:55):
second, as it relates to improvOne thing you can do as a leader
, because really people need andwant to be, and deserve to be
heard.
So if you're kind of runningthe show with the other leaders
and you're not really listeningto your team which, by the way,
is a common challenge what youmight want to start to do is
(34:16):
have regular sessions where youagree that during this session,
we're going to apply thedivergent thinking of improv.
So what that would mean is thatwe're going to apply the
divergent thinking of improv.
So what that would mean is thatwe're going to have a
brainstorming session.
All ideas are good ideas,everyone can be heard, everyone
can speak up.
There is no bad idea here,because you want to get people
used to being heard in a waywhere they're not going to feel
(34:39):
like, oh, if I say somethingwrong, my idea is going to come
back at me later, I'm going tobe shut down.
This happens a lot, right.
Speaker 1 (34:46):
I'm actually working in a toxic team right now and I
have I've shut down, like I'mjust because the leader doesn't
ever give any positive feedbackever.
This is perfect, right and soExample, right and so example.
And like so he hasn't.
He hasn't said anything badabout.
He doesn't usually say anythingbad, but he just doesn't
(35:07):
acknowledge it or or or it'ssort of a backhanded negative
comment and like I say I'm agiver, I want to help, and after
just, I don't want to be likeflowers sent to my door but just
like, oh, thanks, that's areally good idea.
I'm like even this is this,might be even sort of a yes, and
it's like yes, that is a goodidea.
Well, this is kind of a botbecause, because it does have to
(35:30):
be close, like if my idea isn'tsomething he wants to implement
, like yes, but is better thanwhat what I'm getting right now.
Speaker 2 (35:37):
Right, right.
Speaker 1 (35:37):
Well, right.
Speaker 2 (35:38):
Well, that's.
I'm so glad you said that andit's happened to me many times
in my career and many people areexperiencing that right now
that I talk to, and that's whyit's so great.
And what I mentioned aboutdivergent thinking is all ideas
are good ideas.
During that session, you'regoing to be heard and the reason
is your idea might very well,your idea might trigger a
(36:00):
different idea.
Speaker 1 (36:01):
Yeah.
So that's why all ideas aregood ideas and, by the way, when
you listen to people, you'll beamazed at what can come forth
right yeah, then later yeah,please, yeah I think if I, if I
know when I say something I'mgoing to get a positive
affirmation after it, then I'mmuch more likely to say
something right, whereas, yeah,if I'm pretty confident that
(36:23):
whatever I say is going to havea negative connotation, then I'm
going to hold back.
Speaker 2 (36:27):
So, yeah, I can see how YesSan would just be super
valuable in that sort of teamdynamic for people sharing ideas
and thanks, I had a littlecough there, well, and then the
next day or a few days later,you can have a session and apply
convergent thinking, where younarrow it down to two or three
ideas.
And we're going to run withthis many times people go right
(36:51):
to the convergent thinking andthey've missed all kinds of gold
that could have been discussedright and then they haven't
acknowledged, as you mentioned,they haven't heard and
acknowledged someone.
Every idea is a good idea.
Instead of oh, but you couldjust say, yeah, that's a great
idea, that could you know, thatcould really be in a certain
(37:15):
scenario, and then, if you'renot going to go with that idea,
explain maybe why why not,instead of shutting people down,
right?
Speaker 1 (37:22):
yeah, because I'm just so in love with marketing
like everything I, everything Isee and everything.
I interpret everything as somesort of marketing sort of thing.
And have you ever watched thetv show house?
you know yeah sure yeah yeah,and so house is, you know this,
egotistical, narcissistic.
You know, physician, he'sreally bright, but thenistic.
You know, physician, he'sreally bright, but then there's
Wilson and Wilson's the cancerdoctor and they have this you
(37:48):
know bizarre friendship.
But anyway, wilson, housecredits Wilson.
When Wilson talks to hispatient and says Tracy, you have
terminal cancer and you'regoing to die, tracy quite often
says thank you.
And House doesn't understandhow that happens.
Wilson, you just told Tracyshe's going to die, there's no
treatment, there's nothing wecan do, you're going to die, but
(38:09):
Tracy still says thank you.
And how does that happen?
Speaker 2 (38:15):
I'm curious Tell me, how does that happen?
Speaker 1 (38:18):
Well, that's just because Wilson took the time to
really understand Tracy, so thatwasn't the first interaction
they had, they've gone through aprocess together and he's been
with her all the way and it'sbeen like a yes and situation,
right where they're workingtogether and then, when it's
(38:38):
time for the truth to be told,you know, Tracy's just thankful.
That said, well, thank you forbeing honest, she's thankful.
She's not thankful that she'sdying.
She's thankful for the honestyand that Wilson had the
compassion to share it with herin the way that he did.
Speaker 2 (38:57):
Right.
So this is about authenticcommunication too, Right yeah.
Speaker 1 (39:00):
Right, right.
Yeah, this is about authenticcommunication too.
Right yeah, right, right yeah.
Because nobody ever thanksHouse and House is like a way
better doctor than Wilson is,like all of Wilson's patients
die because he's a cancer doctor, right, and because of the TV
show.
Like 80% of these ridiculouscases House solves and saves
their lives but none of them saythank you.
Because House never had theempathy with the patient right.
(39:23):
It was just a transactionalsort of process where you know
thank you wasn't deserved.
I paid the bill, you saved mylife.
That was the transaction thathappens.
Speaker 2 (39:32):
Just like a leader who isn't communicating,
listening.
Building a relationship Right.
Yeah, it's the same scenario.
I love that.
Building a relationship Right.
Yeah, it's the same scenario, Ilove that.
That's definitely a goodexample of something that comes
into our living room every daytoo, through a show Right,
sometimes there's some reallygood leadership learnings.
(39:54):
I wish more leaders watchedthat and got the….
Speaker 1 (39:57):
Well, it's just like I say everything and he bought
the.
Well, it's just like.
It's like everything.
So, yeah, I've recently met thehostage negotiator from
Scotland Yard.
Yes, when I met him and you'velistened to that podcast, I love
that yeah, but when I met him,he was the one who told me that
you and I do the same things.
Speaker 2 (40:17):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (40:17):
Because it's just the psychology of compliance, like,
as a marketer, I want you tobuy my thing and as a hostage
negotiator, I want you torelease the hostage.
But the psychology we use isthe same sort of thing.
So yeah, so let's end with thistotally improvised question.
Speaker 2 (40:36):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (40:37):
How would a hostage negotiator use yes, and to get
the hostages released?
Speaker 2 (40:45):
Well, it's interesting you should mention
that, because I do study thework of Chris Voss, who talks
about using no, and in his case,his no is a yes, and so, just
to complicate things more, it'sjust a different framework.
It's just a different framework.
It's just a different framework.
So I think in the case of chrisvoss, for example, uh, and he's
(41:07):
got a great book, um, the titleescapes me right now.
I'm not sure if you know thetitle of chris's book.
Speaker 1 (41:13):
It's uh he has tactical empathy.
Speaker 2 (41:16):
That's one of his things so the point of the point
is with a guy who's a hostageguy, yeah, he doesn't want to be
told what to do.
This is a real note.
This is a real shutdown guyright so the idea that chris has
is if that's been effective isdon't uh, don't try to get that
person to a yes.
(41:36):
Give them the no so that theycan then figure out for
themselves that they need to getto a yes.
So tell them no, I don't needyou know you wouldn't want to do
that, or whatever, and then theguy will go well, maybe I do,
because they're very contrarian.
It's almost a contrariansituation right.
(41:57):
Where I think yes and yes, andand a little different, because
it's it's.
It's a communication tool toencourage people to listen and
give and receive and in ChrisVoss's scenario that giving and
receiving is really shut down ina lives are at stake, right,
(42:18):
and so it's.
It's kind of like we know we,we know we don't agree with them
, but we don't want to let them.
But we don't want to let.
In this case there is a but.
So I think in in Chris's casehe's using no to get to yes.
Okay, and he says that if youkeep reading his book, he says,
eventually you'll get to a yesthrough this experience of the
(42:41):
no.
So it's a different frameworkand I guess yes and
communication is more around.
Even if we don't agree, suspendjudgment, give and receive, and
it's improv exercises.
You're going to be laughingwhen you do improv.
It's playful, right.
You're going to be laughingwhen you're in a hostage
situation.
It's playful.
You're going to be laughing whenyou're in a hostage situation.
It's not really that playful.
Speaker 1 (43:03):
No.
Speaker 2 (43:07):
It's kind of like the difference between
incorporating games and play inthe schoolyard, or a situation
where the bullies have takenover, if you will.
So I would apply differentframeworks in different
scenarios.
I like.
Chris, I like the hostage.
Speaker 1 (43:26):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (43:27):
I think it's just kind of like you know in life
there might be 10 frameworks onthe go in your business for
different things and I would sayYesN is a great, playful,
laughter bonding, team-orientedframework.
Say yes ends a great, playful,laughter bonding, team oriented
framework and no to get to yescould work in.
Speaker 1 (43:45):
it'd be nice to have access to more than one
framework right that's how I seethat okay yeah, yeah, yeah yeah
, as a paramount paramedic, Inever had any hostage
negotiations, but I hadsomething very similar.
I had two, uh, patients wholike, had the, had the knife in
their hand and they wanted tokill themselves.
So I couldn't, I couldn'tapproach, so their hostage was
(44:05):
themselves.
Right, they're like comingcloser and I'm gonna, I'll cut
my wrist right, and so, yeah, itwas the same sort of dialogue.
I had to convince them torelease themselves to my care in
a way.
Speaker 2 (44:16):
Right, yeah, you're probably not going to start
laughing no, no, no, no no.
In that scenario, chris's bookis Never Split the Difference
and I read the whole thing and Ireally like it.
Speaker 1 (44:26):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (44:26):
And I think that, yeah, it depends on what your
situation.
It's good to have access rightto more than one way of doing
things.
Speaker 1 (44:36):
Yeah, I think so because I'm so literal.
I think one of the problems Iwas having with yes and is I was
thinking that that's how youcommunicate, but it's more of a
tool to help you to listenbetter.
Yeah, yeah.
So, as an example, if my wifeand I went to yes and improv
together, we would have fun inthat, but then we would
(44:58):
communicate better afterwardsbecause I would listen to her
more, even though I wouldn'tnecessarily follow up.
Everything she said was withyes and Is that correct, correct
.
Speaker 2 (45:05):
Yes, that's right.
Speaker 1 (45:06):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (45:07):
That's right.
So I don't say yes andconstantly throughout the day,
however, I still am yes anddoing, and I will say that
improv, through the many yearsI've been doing it, has made me
a broader, open person, willingto listen to all kinds of ideas
and perspectives, and also I canapply the divergent I'm
(45:27):
listening, I'm hearing you andthen go back and narrow down
those ideas.
So those are just some of thetools and it really helps you
access creativity in a differentway.
When you yes and and open up,instead, the human, humans can
be um, we're, we're in the fightand flight.
(45:47):
Right, we've got, we've got,we're wired a certain way.
our brains want to keep us safeour brains want to shut things
down and help us to stay morefixed.
So practicing improv, thisplayful, open way, helps us get
open to creativity, stay open toeach other and the yes and is a
(46:12):
framework of communicationskills and creativity.
And I would say overall, whathappens when you apply improv to
your life is you won't have to,you won't be a hostage right
you're not going to be that kindof person, right?
yeah, you're going to be havinga different life.
You're going to be having amore a life of where you're
(46:35):
curious more about one another,the way you want to engage and
listen.
Speaker 1 (46:42):
Okay, very cool.
So if people wanted to I don'tknow get a copy of your book
bringing you in to speak totheir team.
How do people reach you, findyou, what do they do?
Speaker 2 (46:51):
I have my book right here.
Check that out on Amazon, Iguess the yes and Business
Evolution.
Thank you for that, Mike.
And if you want to get in touch, my website is yesunlimitedca.
And yeah, we're workinginternationally.
There's a course in the worksbased on the book.
Right now, working with leadersand teams I'm very excited
(47:12):
about and yeah, yes and.
Speaker 1 (47:16):
I'll put the com and ca Amazon links in the show
notes and also a link to yourwebsite.
Speaker 2 (47:23):
Thanks, mike, and your book's amazing too, so
empathetic marketing, empathicmarketing.
See Improvisation Empathic.
Speaker 1 (47:33):
Exactly, I couldn't say improvisation, still can't
say it, still can't say it.
Speaker 2 (47:37):
And when it comes to improv, it's good to let go and
fail.
Feel the failure, feel the fear, embrace it, do it anyway.
Speaker 1 (47:47):
Exactly Well.
Thanks so much, tracy.
I'm glad I bumped into you onLinkedIn.
It was so great to have youhere and I look forward to
launching this podcast into thepodcast world.
Speaker 2 (48:01):
I'm so happy we got to talk and I love how we went
in so many different directionsand really yes-ended that, so
thank you All right.
Speaker 1 (48:08):
Thanks, Tracy.
See you next time.
Speaker 2 (48:10):
All right, thanks, mike.
Speaker 1 (48:12):
And that is a wrap for this episode of Because
Business Is Personal.
Thanks for joining us and don'tforget to take advantage of my
two special offers.
First, you can get a free copyof my bestselling book Empathic
Marketing.
You just pay for the shipping.
Or you get a 50% discount on mygap analysis session with the
(48:32):
coupon code podcast.
Just head over towwwbecausebusinessispersonalcom
or check the show notes fordetails.
If you've enjoyed today'sepisode, please don't forget to
follow, subscribe, leave areview and share the podcast
with others who might benefit.
Your support means the world tous, so stay tuned for our next
(48:56):
episode, where we'll continue todelve into the intersection of
empathy and marketing strategy.
Remember, because business isindeed personal, every
connection counts.
Until next time.
See you then.
Hey, welcome to the Because Business is Personal
podcast, the podcast whereempathy meets marketing strategy
.
I'm your host, mike Caldwell,but I'm also known as the
marketing medic.
Now, the reason for that isbecause, before becoming a
marketing strategist, I actuallyworked as a paramedic for 12
years.
It was during that time that Irealized how important it was to
(00:21):
truly understand the problemsyour patient was facing before
you started providing treatment.
And it's the same understanding, the same empathy, is just as
crucial when it comes tounderstanding our prospects and
making sales, and that's why, ineach episode, we'll dissect the
art of empathic marketing,exploring how top professionals
(00:44):
infuse empathy into theirstrategies to build stronger
relationships, boost their salesand make a lasting impact.
So buckle up and prepare toturn up the dial on your
marketing effectiveness.
Now let's get started with ourepisode.
Hey, everyone, welcome back toanother ever exciting episode of
(01:06):
Because Business is Personal.
Today I've got a fun guest thatI found on LinkedIn.
Her name is Tracy Shea Porter,and she is the CEO and
co-founder of yes Unlimited, andshe's the author of yes and
Business Evolution Improv Skillsfor Leadership and Life.
(01:28):
As an entrepreneur, facilitator, a speaker and a writer, tracy
has extensive experience in boththe business world and applied
improvisation.
Help me say that, tracy.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
Improvisation.
Speaker 1 (01:43):
Improvisation, improvisation.
We're improvising, there we go,I'm improvising as we go.
She designs and delivers improvtraining to a broad range of
diverse international clients.
So, tracy, super welcome tohave you here.
Speaker 2 (01:59):
Mike, I'm so excited.
I love your podcast focus.
Business is Personal.
It's amazing and true, right.
Speaker 1 (02:07):
Yeah, and since you are a diehard listener, you know
what the first question is.
The first question is becausebusiness is personal.
Please tell us something aboutyourself that is not business
related, but the audience wouldfind interesting.
Speaker 2 (02:23):
Right.
Well, one thing to know aboutme is that I have an English
degree from the University ofToronto and while I was working
full time, I did that degreeover a period of years and it
made the experience fantastic,because I really love reading
(02:46):
and studying, thinking andliterature, and that actually
explains why maybe I wrote abook eventually.
So that's one interesting pointabout me a humanities degree.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
Yeah, there's a funny story about English and myself
and a book.
Yeah, there's a funny storyabout English and myself in the
book.
Speaker 2 (03:05):
Yeah, okay.
Speaker 1 (03:05):
I was actually kicked out of my grade 13 English
class permanently.
So at the time you needed grade13 OAC English to get into
university.
But I was kicked out, thereason being because when we
came into class every morning,there'd be two words on the
board and one word you'd have tobreak up into its components
(03:26):
and make other words from thosetwo components.
And another word would be aword that we hadn't heard before
and we'd have to learn what itwas.
So one day we come into theroom and it's autograph on the
board and loquacious.
And so autograph.
We'd have to make words out ofauto and words out of graph.
Right and loquacious.
Anyway, because I was whatever17 years old and a complete
douchebag and, oh my gosh, as anadult now I'm so embarrassed by
(03:50):
this question.
But I raised my hand and Iasked my teacher I'm like sir,
why do we need to learn a wordlike loquacious?
It's not something we couldever use in everyday
conversation, because we're justgoing to come off as all
hoity-toity.
Because we're just going tocome off as all hoity-toity.
And I don't know my teacher much.
Well, I think I've beenneedling him all through the
year, but that day he was havinga bad day and he just lost it.
(04:12):
He was a balding guy and thisvein popped out of his head and
he just went on a rant Like whylearn anything?
Why even have schools right?
And he was 100% legit.
And oh my, have schools right.
And he was 100% legit.
And oh my gosh, I deservedeverything he threw at me.
But when he was done his rant,I said so, sir, would that be an
(04:38):
example of somebody beingloquacious?
Yeah, as it was coming out ofmy mouth, I knew where the line
was.
I knew I had crossed it.
He just pointed at the door andsaid out Forever Went to the gym
, played basketball with thebasketball crew and then went
back the next day and he's likeyou know what, mike?
There's just not enough room inthis class for both of us.
Speaker 2 (05:02):
Is that what he said?
Speaker 1 (05:03):
yeah, that is hilarious he's like and I can't
leave, I'm the teacher.
I'm like yeah, no, I get that.
So, uh, but luckily I went.
I went, I have a sign.
I went for a science degree.
All my other marks were, uh,were extremely high, so I was.
I still got accepted with thefull scholarship.
But, uh, yeah, I got intouniversity without an english
degree and then I felt reallyproud later.
I'm like, like, and I wrote twobooks.
(05:24):
I wonder if my English teacherhas any published books.
Speaker 2 (05:26):
There you go.
You know, this example, mike,while you're talking, is so
beautiful, leading into some ofthe conversation we're going to
have.
And I want to mention this toyour listeners right now.
Why this is so beautiful?
Because we totally improvisedthat I didn't even know I was
going to say the English degreething.
You didn't know you were goingto tell this story, right, and
(05:49):
what's really interesting aboutthis is that we just improvised.
Yes, and this is how peoplecommunicate every day in the
office, as they walk down theneighborhood, wherever they are
in the coffee shop, and thething I want to mention about it
is that as soon as someone sayssomething in this case I
mentioned the english degree itgets.
(06:11):
It will have you coming up withthe stories.
Your brain will filter through,okay, to the stories that
relate to what I was talkingabout, and in in your case, it
was this experience you had ingrade 13.
The reason that's reallyinteresting is that, if you
think about it, when you saysomething at work say at work
(06:33):
you have an idea Like why don'twe try a podcast for the office
or whatever?
Or why don't we bring beanbagchairs in?
Whatever it is, whoever'slistening, all the people
listening will each have theirown experience based on their
collection of stories andthoughts right you could say ego
, right, yep, and the beautifulthing is some self-awareness
(06:55):
around.
Hey, I'm experiencing that storythrough the lens of every
experience I've ever had.
Okay, and why that's importantis and I love how we started
that way, so impromptu, right.
Why that's important is becauseyou're having a response, your
(07:16):
very own personal response, toevery single thing you hear.
Speaker 1 (07:20):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (07:21):
Based on everything that's ever happened to you and
because everyone's response iscompletely different.
How do we disrupt both?
Tell our story because ourstory needs to be heard.
We want to tell our story andbe heard.
And how does improvimprovisation we're going to get
into disrupt our stories tooand help us create something new
(07:44):
.
So I love this beginning okaybecause it's kind of deep right
it's yeah, yeah uh, and my book?
in my book I talk about ego andconditioning and how we show up
with everything that everhappened to us in every
interaction okay and when westart to observe ourselves, we
can can go oh, I'm going to tellthis story and be aware that
(08:06):
we're doing that.
Speaker 1 (08:07):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (08:08):
Have awareness.
Speaker 1 (08:09):
Right.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
Hey, I'm telling a story from my collection of
stories, because this story youcould say triggered or and
triggers can be positive.
Speaker 1 (08:21):
They can be tricky.
It's a beautiful leadin totalking about improv and applied
improvisation actually, so staytuned for more of this, I think
it's interesting because, as Iwas starting to tell my story, I
was aware and what I was awareof is like I was aware that I'm
here to interview you, not tellmy own story.
So I was aware of that.
But then I weighed that with,this is kind of a funny story
(08:42):
that I think the the ourlisteners would like to hear.
So I'm you not tell my ownstory.
So I was aware of that, butthen I weighed that with, this
is kind of a funny story that Ithink the the our listeners
would like to hear.
So I'm like, okay, I am goingto tell this story, even though
I'm aware that it's not, youknow, part of the normal journey
of a pod of my podcast, where Ido ask the questions that you
provide the answers.
Speaker 2 (08:59):
Well, look how beautiful that co-creation was,
because now we're letting thereader, or the listener, the
reader in on something reallyinteresting that we all like.
I think that was perfect,beautiful, not that anything
needs to be perfect because,when it comes to failure is the
goal.
Speaker 1 (09:17):
So okay so before we move forward with that stuff I
want to go backward a little bitand like looking through your
book.
I see that you are one of thefirst people in Canada to get
your MBA remotely.
Is that correct?
Speaker 2 (09:33):
uh, mba remote?
Oh, I think.
Okay.
So if you, I think what you'rereferring to is that Ron Tite,
who did the introduction, maybe,to my book yes uh, rontite was
at Queen's University RightWhile I was working at Bell
Canada.
Oh okay, and what we were doingis we introduced the first
(09:53):
executive MBA program back inthe 90s.
Speaker 1 (09:57):
Okay, bell Canada did .
Speaker 2 (09:59):
Bell, canada, together with.
Queen's that's okay.
Bell Canada, together withQueen's, introduced the first
executive MBA program availableby video conferencing back in
the day.
Speaker 1 (10:11):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (10:11):
So Bell Canada had rooms across the country, video
conferencing rooms and all thestudents Queen students went to
rooms in various cities.
Speaker 1 (10:19):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (10:20):
And met with professors by video conferencing
.
Speaker 1 (10:24):
Oh, very cool.
Okay, and met with professorsby video conferencing.
Speaker 2 (10:26):
Oh, very cool, and we were talking about how that was
kind of improvised because itwas the first time we did
something like that.
Speaker 1 (10:31):
Yeah, so people didn't have to move to Kingston
to get their MBA for the firsttime.
Speaker 2 (10:35):
Right.
So Bell was the connectivity.
I was part of a communicationse-learning team and Ron at the
time was uh at queens as part oftheir business team.
And now ron, tight, uh, is abig entry.
Look him up.
He's got a new book coming out,the purpose of purpose, and I I
love one.
Speaker 1 (10:56):
Okay, mention that so I thought that was very
interesting, that whole way toget the nba.
But more interesting is youwere like Bell Canada worker by
day, improv comedian at night,and that's just crazy.
So what motivated you to doimprov for the humor's sake and
(11:17):
not for business back then?
Speaker 2 (11:19):
I love that.
I started doing improv in myearly 20s when I was also a
young professional woman,starting out in communications,
and I went down to theatersports at Harborfront in Toronto
.
Theater sports was a comedyshow where you watch people
perform doing skits and sketchesand basically it's kind of like
(11:43):
if you saw Whose Line Is itAnywhere, or Saturday Night Live
or Second City.
It's a show.
So it's a very comedyperformance and I went and got
hooked and took a class.
It's a community.
I never left the community andI was in a comedy group for 11
years called the Canadian SpaceOpera Company as well.
We did a lot of fringe showsand performances.
(12:06):
So yes, I had this hobby ofimprov while.
Speaker 1 (12:10):
I was a business person.
Speaker 2 (12:12):
And it really informed me beautifully in terms
of communication skills.
Speaker 1 (12:16):
Yeah, I think that's what's, and I could be wrong,
but I think that's whatseparates improv from the rest
of the comedians.
Like the rest of the comediansare just like these night
dwellers, like they come out atnight and they're all alone in
their little apartments duringthe day, but improv it does seem
to be like like SCTV seemedlike a tight family, like whose
line is it?
Anyway, they all seem likethey're a tight group and they
all do stuff together and theyseem like they are a really
(12:38):
tight knit group.
Speaker 2 (12:39):
It's true, because improv, you bond.
You bond because you'reco-creating together, on the
spot, something completely newright, and what happened with me
through the years is, uh,there's something called applied
improvisation and that's whatmy book's about and that's
that's what I now teach whereyou apply the tenets of improv,
(13:01):
like active listening, yes, andconversations that we're going
to get into in a minute, uh, andand different techniques, that
makes great sketch groups alsohappen to make great teams okay
yeah, so we're not.
We're not teaching people to beperformers when, when we use
applied improvisation, we'reteaching people to be better
(13:23):
communicators and open tocreativity.
Speaker 1 (13:26):
Okay, so I'm a little bit nervous, but let's do this,
let's try and exercise and seeif I I know nobody's good or bad
at this right, it'snonjudgmental, but let's see how
it goes.
Speaker 2 (13:42):
Well, I love what you just said, because that's one
of the things there's nomistakes, really, there's only
opportunities.
If we're not making mistakes,it's true, where's the growth?
Every day we're making a ton ofthem and it's really more
around maybe staying humble withthat.
So, when it comes to improv andwhat we're going to do, we're
going to do an exercise where wedon't know what we're going to
(14:04):
say.
Okay, we don't know what we'regoing to say.
I'll start it, this firstversion.
We're going to try out what theword no is like in an exercise.
Okay, so I'm going to say asentence very simple and you're
going to start your nextsentence, in response to me,
with the word no, okay, okay, soI'll say Jack decided to go to
(14:27):
the store.
Speaker 1 (14:29):
No, he just wanted to stay home.
Speaker 2 (14:32):
No, Jack took his dog on a long walk.
Speaker 1 (14:36):
No, he didn't, because it was raining.
Speaker 2 (14:39):
No, Jack decided to go on vacation and flew to
Hawaii.
Speaker 1 (14:44):
No, he couldn't, because it was COVID and the
airports were shut down.
Speaker 2 (14:47):
Right, okay, so no, like when we're using the word
no in this type of a scenario.
How did that feel to you?
Speaker 1 (14:57):
I didn't like it Right.
Speaker 2 (15:00):
Because what happens in a story like that?
Nothing's happening, it's notgoing anywhere, right?
Speaker 1 (15:05):
No, and it just.
I'm not an antagonistic person,and it just felt like I was
just being negative.
Speaker 2 (15:12):
Yeah.
So one thing I always letpeople know is that the word no
is really important when youwant to shut things down.
Speaker 1 (15:20):
Right.
Speaker 2 (15:20):
The word no is really important when you want
boundaries for yourself, andit's really important.
You know no means no.
However, no is not a great wordwhen you want to build teams
and say, and when you want tointeract, when you want to open
up and encourage people to haveconfidence and speak up in
meetings, when you want peopleto build trust and collaborate
(15:44):
with each other, no can reallyshut things down in a negative
way.
So I always mention that.
So let's try that story.
This time we're going to useyes, but Okay, okay.
So Jack decided to get in hiscar and go for a drive and you
can say yes, but yes, but beforehe went he decided to take his
(16:06):
dog with him.
Speaker 1 (16:08):
Yes, but the dog wasn't eating properly, so he
brought along some special foodoh okay, yes, but he didn't want
to give the food to the dogbefore the walk, just so he
wouldn't be sick during the walkyes, but uh, he loaded
(16:32):
everything in the car, includingthe dog, and decided to try
anyway, and so I'll stop thatthere.
Speaker 2 (16:38):
so how does the word but feel in that scenario?
Okay, so you tricked me.
Speaker 1 (16:47):
No, we're going to do that we have a third one coming
Exactly, and so I thought wewere going to do the no and then
the yes, and so it was funnybecause I know the next one is
yes and Right and I mistook yesbut, and so as we were going
through the yes but exercise, Iwas like this isn't any more fun
than the no.
Speaker 2 (17:06):
I love that.
Why do?
Speaker 1 (17:07):
we do.
I thought this was going to bethe good one and I'm like I
think we're doing this wrong.
Speaker 2 (17:14):
I'm improvising with you.
Speaker 1 (17:15):
Yeah, and it wasn't until the last.
Yes, but I'm like wait a minute, this isn't yes and this is yes
, but how did both feel?
I didn't like it.
Like I said, I was like no,what do you mean?
What do you mean?
Yes, but we had to bring foodfor Charlie.
Well, I didn't know where to gowith that, I couldn't build on
it.
I'm like, yes, but well, we hadto get the food after.
(17:36):
I couldn't build on that, Ididn't like it.
Speaker 2 (17:38):
Yeah, it's true, thank, that's amazing.
Yes, I threw yes, but in,because but is also a word
that's just shuts things down ina negative way.
You know, be aware.
I encourage everyone who'slistening to be aware when you
say but, so I start to want itnotice when you say but and how
it feels and how people respond.
Studies actually show thatwords like no and words like but
(18:02):
can really have a negativeeffect on your business and
personal relationships and, aswe know, they both intermingle.
Business is personal, so let'stry this whole thing again.
I'm going to start a differentstory with yes and Okay.
Speaker 1 (18:19):
Yes, and that last one was so authentic because,
like I said, I thought I thoughtyes, but was yes and I love it.
Speaker 2 (18:26):
Cool, let's go.
It's amazing, okay.
So jack decided to go on a walklet's keep it going.
Yes, and he brought his dog,charlie yes, and jack and
charlie went to the nearby park.
Speaker 1 (18:42):
Yes, and while they were there, they met two other
dogs that Charlie got to playwith.
Speaker 2 (18:46):
Yes, and the dogs ran all around the dog park and
they had a great time.
Speaker 1 (18:53):
Yes, and Mike was single and one of the other dog
owners was a single female.
So now Mike has a date afterthis dog walk dog owners was a
single female.
Speaker 2 (19:04):
So now Mike has a date after this dog walk.
Yes, and the girl and he tookthe dogs and they went to the
coffee shop and they decided tohang out and try some coffee
with their newfound friend dogs.
Speaker 1 (19:16):
Yes, and in the end the dogs were the flower girl
and ring bear for their weddingNicely done, mike.
Speaker 2 (19:22):
I love that.
Nicely done, mike, nicely done.
So how does yes and feel?
Speaker 1 (19:27):
That was fun.
I had so many ways to go withthat story.
I was like, when we're doingthe yes, but, and Charlie needed
to bring food I didn't knowwhat to say to that needed to
bring food, I didn't have any.
I didn't know what to say tothat.
Yeah.
But when you said and you know,and then they went to the dog
park, I was like, oh what, likethere's so many things that
(19:49):
could have happened at the dogpark, and so I had a lot of
options.
Speaker 2 (19:51):
It was good you did, it was amazing.
It was amazing.
And the other thing, so try.
I encourage people to try, yesand Try, try it out and see what
happens in your conversationswith people and how there's this
flow that starts to happen.
Or you can try out thisexercise with someone, because
what happens when you're doingimprov, mike, I'm sure you
noticed you cannot be anywhereexcept in the present moment.
Speaker 1 (20:12):
Right, yes, that's true you have to be listening.
Speaker 2 (20:15):
You must listen because you don't know what's
going to happen.
Okay, you don't know what'sgoing to happen.
So a lot of times when peopleare telling a story, you might
be thinking oh, when they finish, I get to tell my story, and
that your ego comes up with thebox of thoughts right, which is
totally natural, normal, and youwant that to happen.
(20:37):
We need our ego.
I want to make it clear the egois not a bad thing, it's a good
thing.
Otherwise we'd be walkingaround the streets doing all
kinds to make it clear the egois not a bad thing, it's a good
thing.
Otherwise we walking around thestreets, you know, doing all
kinds of havoc.
So the ego keeps us in check,the ego keeps us safe.
Ego we need the ego okay it's.
We're in a world where the egosrun amok a little bit, so what
we want to do is disrupt alittle bit with something new,
(20:58):
to create space and presence.
And this creates a bonding whenyou do this with your teammates
or anyone, because suddenlyyou're in the moment co-creating
something together.
Speaker 1 (21:10):
Okay, so that brings me to my next question.
So I've seen SCTV and I've seenyou know whose line is it and I
could see how improv could besuper funny.
It is super funny, right, yeah,with Colin Mochrie and that
crew, but how does it apply tobusiness?
I don't see the link there.
Speaker 2 (21:25):
I love that you're asking that question.
Okay, so back to appliedimprovisation.
So let's say I'm working with ateam of it could be 20 or 200
people.
Let's say I have 20 people andeveryone.
If I have a small group,everyone might be in a circle
standing.
If I have a small group everyonemight be in a circle standing
and there'd be a facilitator.
I'm the facilitator in thisscenario and I would encourage
(21:50):
people to do simple exercises.
So we're not saying, here,we're going to create scenes and
you're going to be a performer.
We would do an exercise likethe one we just did.
After some warm-ups and soforth, we would get to an
exercise like no, yes and yes,and, and it's all about doing a
simple story where people canexperience the experiential
nature of improv.
(22:10):
And then it's all about thedebrief afterward where we how
did that feel?
How can that help you nowcommunicate more effectively
with your teammates and open upto better listening skills?
By the way, I don't mind sayingthat listening skills is
considered the number one areathat leaders need to work on.
(22:31):
Okay, listening to theirteammate, instead of coming in
and saying, well, we're going todo everything my way and no,
we're not listening to yourideas.
And going to do everything myway and no, we're not listening
to your ideas.
And you know they give kind ofa lip service to yeah, that's a
good idea, no, we've always doneit this way or whatever, right.
(22:52):
So yes, and is an effectivecommunication tool to help
people listen, give and receive.
So, for example, the yes meansI'm listening, I'm receiving,
I'm accepting, acknowledging andhearing you, and the end is I'm
speaking up, building on whatyou're saying, connecting,
inspiring.
So the bottom line is that,through this giving and
(23:13):
receiving, going back and forth,you might arrive at something
new, and I'm thinking about thepolarization of the world when I
say that, like, instead of I'mright, you're wrong, instead of
my way or the highway it's, I'mgoing to suspend judgment.
And, by the way, it's reallyimportant to know it doesn't
mean you have to agree.
(23:33):
So, for example, maybe you andI have very different ideas
about something.
However, we're going to, yes,end this, we're going to agree
to suspend judgment and listenand hear one another and give
respect, even if we don't agree.
How powerful is that Right?
Speaker 1 (23:50):
Yeah, yeah, I've got a really good example of
listening skills.
So I was on, I was beinginterviewed on another podcast,
yes, and we had a set ofquestions prior going in.
But when I started the podcastbefore we went on air, I'm like,
and we had a set of questionsprior going in, but when I
started the podcast before wewent on air, I'm like I like to
have a kind of conversational,you know, and go back and forth
oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, that'sdefinitely how I do it.
(24:11):
So we're talking about my thingempathic marketing and so I
said something like oh, butthere's that people can do to
really capture their audience'sattention.
And she responded with the yeah, yeah, yeah, got it, got it.
And I was like you got what?
Like I said, I lobbed one toyou Like there's one thing
(24:32):
people can do to capture youraudience's attention.
She's like yeah, yeah, yeah, Igot it.
Like, no, because I didn't tellyou what it was.
I want to know what it was.
You weren't listening.
Like I wanted to have aconversation with her and so I
left it to her for her to say oh, what is that?
One thing, right.
But she didn't say that becausethe whole time I was talking
she was looking at her notes,she was in her head, she wasn't
(24:54):
hearing me at all.
She's like oh, he's donetalking.
Speaker 2 (25:03):
Next question right, right, yes, yeah, like I've
never even listened to thatpodcast because I just feel it
was so terrible well, you know,that's a really good example of
someone not really focused onwhat they're doing, and it
happens all the time, right?
One of the things I like aboutyou the work you're doing too
mike with marketing and so forthis, first of all, empathetic
(25:23):
marketing.
I love this whole idea ofempathy and I'm really curious
about that because empathy is abig improvisation tool with you
if you're listening, activelylistening.
And I'm curious because I'mgoing to talk about marketing
and sales for a sec.
Tell me a little.
I am curious.
I want to just know for aminute about the marketing and
(25:44):
the empathy piece how that workstogether for you.
Speaker 1 (25:47):
Yeah, it's, it's.
Empathy just meansunderstanding, and so you just
need to understand your audienceand you need to communicate
with them, yes, and like in theway they want to be communicated
to Right.
You can't just like that womanwho interviewed me.
She told me what she wanted tosay.
Speaker 2 (26:08):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (26:08):
Right, she wasn't, I wasn't involved in that
conversation at all, right.
And so when you're trying tosell this to somebody,
especially now and I'm, I'm, I'm, I love artificial intelligence
, use it.
I love artificial intelligence,use it every day.
I'm not anti-AI, but as we getmore towards AI and everything's
roboticized, more we're losingthat personal touch.
It's going to be greater andgreater, and I think there's
(26:31):
going to be a yearning for thatauthenticity and human
connection, and that's where theempathy comes in, and so you
need to have empathy inmarketing if you want your
business to survive forward.
Speaker 2 (26:41):
Right, otherwise it feels like selling.
It feels like right, it's not.
You're not really listening toyour clients.
What they need, what they wantwhere they're at, what their
values are, yeah you just that.
I love that, uh, very much.
I don't mind saying, when youmention ai, we call ourselves
the other ai, appliedimprovisation.
Oh right, yeah, we callourselves the Other AI, which is
(27:03):
the human connection part.
Oh, cool yeah so I love that andyou know I was thinking about
your book because I really lovethat focus.
And I, in my career I mentioned, I've been doing the business
world and improv all the wayalong.
I've been in marketing and I'vebeen in sales.
Speaker 1 (27:23):
Right.
Speaker 2 (27:23):
And so one of the things, the areas I like to use
improv for is because, as youknow so well, marketing and
salespeople have differentbrains at work right, and
different goals, motives.
Marketing is building messagingin a brand, it's slower's
thoughtful right, and sales ishow fast can we make this happen
(27:44):
?
We have revenue targets now,now.
Now, right, yeah, right.
Speaker 1 (27:49):
I'm sure you ran into that yourself well, I am, I am,
I think I'm a brilliantmarketer.
Yes, in all modesty, but I amthe world's worst person at
sales, because I do not want toask you for anything.
Like I just I don't want you to.
I don't want to ask you foranything, but what I want is for
you to ask of me.
(28:09):
Right, it's like oh, empathicmarketing.
That sounds to trace.
How, how can, how could, howcould you work with us to help
us increase our sales?
I want you to ask that question.
I don't want to say, hey, tracy, like would you be willing to
hire me to work with your team?
Like I can't ask you that.
I can't sell you on that.
I need to get you enticed andinterested so that you're like
(28:31):
oh, mike, I read your book andthis is brilliant.
You can really help our team.
How can we hire you?
Like that's, that's how I getthe jobs.
I can't ask to be hired.
Speaker 2 (28:39):
Well, I love you know what I love that, and the
reason I love that is becauseI'm a natural marketer and I'm
like you.
That's how I started my career,so I really relate to marketing
people and market.
I was in marketingcommunications for years and
then I had a little bit of aswitch up.
I ended up actually doingbusiness to business, cold
(29:00):
calling.
I never in my I never wouldhave imagined that I would be
doing that.
However, I did.
Speaker 1 (29:07):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (29:11):
And what I learned through the experience of being
in marketing and then also insales is you're using different.
There's different brains,different accessing different
parts of your brains to dodifferent jobs, different tasks,
and I found that I was reallygood at B2B calling, appointment
setting because of my marketingbackground and I wasn't salesy.
Speaker 1 (29:33):
Right.
Speaker 2 (29:34):
I was kind of like authentic and interested in
empathy and hearing.
I used a lot of activelistening and that's when I
realized I was actuallyimprovising, I was using my
improv background.
So now the reason I mentionedthat is if you're working in a
company, there's a few improvand sales go together really
(29:54):
well because you teach people tolisten, like a marketer would,
if you will listen, listen towhat the the person on the other
side of the phone saying don'tjust come in and do your, your
spiel, don't just come in and dosome kind of speech so just to
interject really quickly,because that's what I hate is
the cold calls where I say hello, like hi, this is so and so,
(30:18):
from vacations, vacations, andwe have blah, blah, blah, blah,
blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,blah, blah, and I quite often
put the phone down and 10minutes later they don't know
I'm not there anymore.
Speaker 1 (30:26):
I'm just like I don't care, I'm not going to buy from
them and I hope if I wastetheir time then they won't call
me back.
But they'll talk for 10 minuteswithout knowing if I'm there.
And I'm assuming you did not dothat when you did B2B cold
calling.
Speaker 2 (30:40):
Absolutely not.
In fact, the first thing Iwanted to do was qualify and, by
the way, business to businessis a little different than
calling, of course.
Calling someone at their home,because you're calling a
business is calling anotherbusiness, which is a little more
acceptable, I'd say, than whenyou call people at their home,
is tricky these days becausethere's so much you know you
(31:01):
don't know who's calling youanymore at home.
So, if you know, you don't knowwho's calling you anymore.
So if you're calling someone attheir business, you might
qualify right off the bat with aquestion like hi, are you the
person in charge of xyz?
Do you work with xyz?
You want to qualify right, getand figure out very quickly.
Oh, if you can help each otherand that's how you look at it
with authentic marketing andsales.
You look right back to what yousaid, mike I, because I really
(31:21):
do believe that empathy is Ihear you, it's yes and it's yes,
and I'm listening, I hear you,I want to learn about you, and
then you have a back and forthand an outcome.
So that's how I believemarketing and sales can meet and
understand one another moreeffectively.
Of course, we're just touchingthe surface of that, however,
(31:44):
through improv and yes, and, andyou know, the whole act of
listening, building, empathy,perspective taking and of course
it's thinking on your feetskills.
Speaker 1 (31:54):
Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah .
I'm sure you've had a lot ofthese, but could you give me an
example of like one aha momentduring a corporate training
event where you really connectwith the audience and made some
sort of difference?
Speaker 2 (32:07):
Well, I can think of so many.
One that I love is I wasworking with 30 salespeople
Interestingly, they were retailsalespeople and we were doing a
two day event that includedroleplaying, all kinds of
different improv exercises tohelp people kind of stretch
their comfort zone, get intostorytelling.
So at the beginning of day oneI went in and did kind of
(32:31):
sometimes I do something aboutnonverbal communications, like
spread your arms, try differenteye contact scenarios, try
different postures, and I didone where spread your arms and
say I'm grateful, because itactually changes the brain and
changes how you feel in themoment.
It can really create a sense ofgratitude.
(32:52):
Gratitude's great and we canaccess that gratitude.
Just spread your arms for 20seconds and say I'm grateful.
And the next day, after thefull day of training, I came
back the next day and as Iwalked in, the whole circle was
there and they all spread theirarms and said I'm grateful.
All the way it was really movingbecause, they had already been
(33:13):
through, you know, a couple ofdays of training and here they
were ready to be grateful forempathy and thinking on your
feet, skills and yes, and so itwas beautiful.
Speaker 1 (33:27):
That is cool.
How does improv help individualleaders or team members show up
as a better communicator?
Speaker 2 (33:35):
Right?
Well, the first thing thatcomes to mind is this whole when
you're a leader, you mightbelieve that you have to have
all the answers, or you mightbelieve that you're in charge of
everything and that you need tohave all the ideas.
I'm going to focus on divergentand convergent thinking for a
(33:55):
second, as it relates to improvOne thing you can do as a leader
, because really people need andwant to be, and deserve to be
heard.
So if you're kind of runningthe show with the other leaders
and you're not really listeningto your team which, by the way,
is a common challenge what youmight want to start to do is
(34:16):
have regular sessions where youagree that during this session,
we're going to apply thedivergent thinking of improv.
So what that would mean is thatwe're going to apply the
divergent thinking of improv.
So what that would mean is thatwe're going to have a
brainstorming session.
All ideas are good ideas,everyone can be heard, everyone
can speak up.
There is no bad idea here,because you want to get people
used to being heard in a waywhere they're not going to feel
(34:39):
like, oh, if I say somethingwrong, my idea is going to come
back at me later, I'm going tobe shut down.
This happens a lot, right.
Speaker 1 (34:46):
I'm actually working in a toxic team right now and I
have I've shut down, like I'mjust because the leader doesn't
ever give any positive feedbackever.
This is perfect, right and soExample, right and so example.
And like so he hasn't.
He hasn't said anything badabout.
He doesn't usually say anythingbad, but he just doesn't
(35:07):
acknowledge it or or or it'ssort of a backhanded negative
comment and like I say I'm agiver, I want to help, and after
just, I don't want to be likeflowers sent to my door but just
like, oh, thanks, that's areally good idea.
I'm like even this is this,might be even sort of a yes, and
it's like yes, that is a goodidea.
Well, this is kind of a botbecause, because it does have to
(35:30):
be close, like if my idea isn'tsomething he wants to implement
, like yes, but is better thanwhat what I'm getting right now.
Speaker 2 (35:37):
Right, right.
Speaker 1 (35:37):
Well, right.
Speaker 2 (35:38):
Well, that's.
I'm so glad you said that andit's happened to me many times
in my career and many people areexperiencing that right now
that I talk to, and that's whyit's so great.
And what I mentioned aboutdivergent thinking is all ideas
are good ideas.
During that session, you'regoing to be heard and the reason
is your idea might very well,your idea might trigger a
(36:00):
different idea.
Speaker 1 (36:01):
Yeah.
So that's why all ideas aregood ideas and, by the way, when
you listen to people, you'll beamazed at what can come forth
right yeah, then later yeah,please, yeah I think if I, if I
know when I say something I'mgoing to get a positive
affirmation after it, then I'mmuch more likely to say
something right, whereas, yeah,if I'm pretty confident that
(36:23):
whatever I say is going to havea negative connotation, then I'm
going to hold back.
Speaker 2 (36:27):
So, yeah, I can see how YesSan would just be super
valuable in that sort of teamdynamic for people sharing ideas
and thanks, I had a littlecough there, well, and then the
next day or a few days later,you can have a session and apply
convergent thinking, where younarrow it down to two or three
ideas.
And we're going to run withthis many times people go right
(36:51):
to the convergent thinking andthey've missed all kinds of gold
that could have been discussedright and then they haven't
acknowledged, as you mentioned,they haven't heard and
acknowledged someone.
Every idea is a good idea.
Instead of oh, but you couldjust say, yeah, that's a great
idea, that could you know, thatcould really be in a certain
(37:15):
scenario, and then, if you'renot going to go with that idea,
explain maybe why why not,instead of shutting people down,
right?
Speaker 1 (37:22):
yeah, because I'm just so in love with marketing
like everything I, everything Isee and everything.
I interpret everything as somesort of marketing sort of thing.
And have you ever watched thetv show house?
you know yeah sure yeah yeah,and so house is, you know this,
egotistical, narcissistic.
You know, physician, he'sreally bright, but thenistic.
You know, physician, he'sreally bright, but then there's
Wilson and Wilson's the cancerdoctor and they have this you
(37:48):
know bizarre friendship.
But anyway, wilson, housecredits Wilson.
When Wilson talks to hispatient and says Tracy, you have
terminal cancer and you'regoing to die, tracy quite often
says thank you.
And House doesn't understandhow that happens.
Wilson, you just told Tracyshe's going to die, there's no
treatment, there's nothing wecan do, you're going to die, but
(38:09):
Tracy still says thank you.
And how does that happen?
Speaker 2 (38:15):
I'm curious Tell me, how does that happen?
Speaker 1 (38:18):
Well, that's just because Wilson took the time to
really understand Tracy, so thatwasn't the first interaction
they had, they've gone through aprocess together and he's been
with her all the way and it'sbeen like a yes and situation,
right where they're workingtogether and then, when it's
(38:38):
time for the truth to be told,you know, Tracy's just thankful.
That said, well, thank you forbeing honest, she's thankful.
She's not thankful that she'sdying.
She's thankful for the honestyand that Wilson had the
compassion to share it with herin the way that he did.
Speaker 2 (38:57):
Right.
So this is about authenticcommunication too, Right yeah.
Speaker 1 (39:00):
Right, right.
Yeah, this is about authenticcommunication too.
Right yeah, right, right yeah.
Because nobody ever thanksHouse and House is like a way
better doctor than Wilson is,like all of Wilson's patients
die because he's a cancer doctor, right, and because of the TV
show.
Like 80% of these ridiculouscases House solves and saves
their lives but none of them saythank you.
Because House never had theempathy with the patient right.
(39:23):
It was just a transactionalsort of process where you know
thank you wasn't deserved.
I paid the bill, you saved mylife.
That was the transaction thathappens.
Speaker 2 (39:32):
Just like a leader who isn't communicating,
listening.
Building a relationship Right.
Yeah, it's the same scenario.
I love that.
Building a relationship Right.
Yeah, it's the same scenario, Ilove that.
That's definitely a goodexample of something that comes
into our living room every daytoo, through a show Right,
sometimes there's some reallygood leadership learnings.
(39:54):
I wish more leaders watchedthat and got the….
Speaker 1 (39:57):
Well, it's just like I say everything and he bought
the.
Well, it's just like.
It's like everything.
So, yeah, I've recently met thehostage negotiator from
Scotland Yard.
Yes, when I met him and you'velistened to that podcast, I love
that yeah, but when I met him,he was the one who told me that
you and I do the same things.
Speaker 2 (40:17):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (40:17):
Because it's just the psychology of compliance, like,
as a marketer, I want you tobuy my thing and as a hostage
negotiator, I want you torelease the hostage.
But the psychology we use isthe same sort of thing.
So yeah, so let's end with thistotally improvised question.
Speaker 2 (40:36):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (40:37):
How would a hostage negotiator use yes, and to get
the hostages released?
Speaker 2 (40:45):
Well, it's interesting you should mention
that, because I do study thework of Chris Voss, who talks
about using no, and in his case,his no is a yes, and so, just
to complicate things more, it'sjust a different framework.
It's just a different framework.
It's just a different framework.
So I think in the case of chrisvoss, for example, uh, and he's
(41:07):
got a great book, um, the titleescapes me right now.
I'm not sure if you know thetitle of chris's book.
Speaker 1 (41:13):
It's uh he has tactical empathy.
Speaker 2 (41:16):
That's one of his things so the point of the point
is with a guy who's a hostageguy, yeah, he doesn't want to be
told what to do.
This is a real note.
This is a real shutdown guyright so the idea that chris has
is if that's been effective isdon't uh, don't try to get that
person to a yes.
(41:36):
Give them the no so that theycan then figure out for
themselves that they need to getto a yes.
So tell them no, I don't needyou know you wouldn't want to do
that, or whatever, and then theguy will go well, maybe I do,
because they're very contrarian.
It's almost a contrariansituation right.
(41:57):
Where I think yes and yes, andand a little different, because
it's it's.
It's a communication tool toencourage people to listen and
give and receive and in ChrisVoss's scenario that giving and
receiving is really shut down ina lives are at stake, right,
(42:18):
and so it's.
It's kind of like we know we,we know we don't agree with them
, but we don't want to let them.
But we don't want to let.
In this case there is a but.
So I think in in Chris's casehe's using no to get to yes.
Okay, and he says that if youkeep reading his book, he says,
eventually you'll get to a yesthrough this experience of the
(42:41):
no.
So it's a different frameworkand I guess yes and
communication is more around.
Even if we don't agree, suspendjudgment, give and receive, and
it's improv exercises.
You're going to be laughingwhen you do improv.
It's playful, right.
You're going to be laughingwhen you're in a hostage
situation.
It's playful.
You're going to be laughing whenyou're in a hostage situation.
It's not really that playful.
Speaker 1 (43:03):
No.
Speaker 2 (43:07):
It's kind of like the difference between
incorporating games and play inthe schoolyard, or a situation
where the bullies have takenover, if you will.
So I would apply differentframeworks in different
scenarios.
I like.
Chris, I like the hostage.
Speaker 1 (43:26):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (43:27):
I think it's just kind of like you know in life
there might be 10 frameworks onthe go in your business for
different things and I would sayYesN is a great, playful,
laughter bonding, team-orientedframework.
Say yes ends a great, playful,laughter bonding, team oriented
framework and no to get to yescould work in.
Speaker 1 (43:45):
it'd be nice to have access to more than one
framework right that's how I seethat okay yeah, yeah, yeah yeah
, as a paramount paramedic, Inever had any hostage
negotiations, but I hadsomething very similar.
I had two, uh, patients wholike, had the, had the knife in
their hand and they wanted tokill themselves.
So I couldn't, I couldn'tapproach, so their hostage was
(44:05):
themselves.
Right, they're like comingcloser and I'm gonna, I'll cut
my wrist right, and so, yeah, itwas the same sort of dialogue.
I had to convince them torelease themselves to my care in
a way.
Speaker 2 (44:16):
Right, yeah, you're probably not going to start
laughing no, no, no, no no.
In that scenario, chris's bookis Never Split the Difference
and I read the whole thing and Ireally like it.
Speaker 1 (44:26):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (44:26):
And I think that, yeah, it depends on what your
situation.
It's good to have access rightto more than one way of doing
things.
Speaker 1 (44:36):
Yeah, I think so because I'm so literal.
I think one of the problems Iwas having with yes and is I was
thinking that that's how youcommunicate, but it's more of a
tool to help you to listenbetter.
Yeah, yeah.
So, as an example, if my wifeand I went to yes and improv
together, we would have fun inthat, but then we would
(44:58):
communicate better afterwardsbecause I would listen to her
more, even though I wouldn'tnecessarily follow up.
Everything she said was withyes and Is that correct, correct
.
Speaker 2 (45:05):
Yes, that's right.
Speaker 1 (45:06):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (45:07):
That's right.
So I don't say yes andconstantly throughout the day,
however, I still am yes anddoing, and I will say that
improv, through the many yearsI've been doing it, has made me
a broader, open person, willingto listen to all kinds of ideas
and perspectives, and also I canapply the divergent I'm
(45:27):
listening, I'm hearing you andthen go back and narrow down
those ideas.
So those are just some of thetools and it really helps you
access creativity in a differentway.
When you yes and and open up,instead, the human, humans can
be um, we're, we're in the fightand flight.
(45:47):
Right, we've got, we've got,we're wired a certain way.
our brains want to keep us safeour brains want to shut things
down and help us to stay morefixed.
So practicing improv, thisplayful, open way, helps us get
open to creativity, stay open toeach other and the yes and is a
(46:12):
framework of communicationskills and creativity.
And I would say overall, whathappens when you apply improv to
your life is you won't have to,you won't be a hostage right
you're not going to be that kindof person, right?
yeah, you're going to be havinga different life.
You're going to be having amore a life of where you're
(46:35):
curious more about one another,the way you want to engage and
listen.
Speaker 1 (46:42):
Okay, very cool.
So if people wanted to I don'tknow get a copy of your book
bringing you in to speak totheir team.
How do people reach you, findyou, what do they do?
Speaker 2 (46:51):
I have my book right here.
Check that out on Amazon, Iguess the yes and Business
Evolution.
Thank you for that, Mike.
And if you want to get in touch, my website is yesunlimitedca.
And yeah, we're workinginternationally.
There's a course in the worksbased on the book.
Right now, working with leadersand teams I'm very excited
(47:12):
about and yeah, yes and.
Speaker 1 (47:16):
I'll put the com and ca Amazon links in the show
notes and also a link to yourwebsite.
Speaker 2 (47:23):
Thanks, mike, and your book's amazing too, so
empathetic marketing, empathicmarketing.
See Improvisation Empathic.
Speaker 1 (47:33):
Exactly, I couldn't say improvisation, still can't
say it, still can't say it.
Speaker 2 (47:37):
And when it comes to improv, it's good to let go and
fail.
Feel the failure, feel the fear, embrace it, do it anyway.
Speaker 1 (47:47):
Exactly Well.
Thanks so much, tracy.
I'm glad I bumped into you onLinkedIn.
It was so great to have youhere and I look forward to
launching this podcast into thepodcast world.
Speaker 2 (48:01):
I'm so happy we got to talk and I love how we went
in so many different directionsand really yes-ended that, so
thank you All right.
Speaker 1 (48:08):
Thanks, Tracy.
See you next time.
Speaker 2 (48:10):
All right, thanks, mike.
Speaker 1 (48:12):
And that is a wrap for this episode of Because
Business Is Personal.
Thanks for joining us and don'tforget to take advantage of my
two special offers.
First, you can get a free copyof my bestselling book Empathic
Marketing.
You just pay for the shipping.
Or you get a 50% discount on mygap analysis session with the
(48:32):
coupon code podcast.
Just head over towwwbecausebusinessispersonalcom
or check the show notes fordetails.
If you've enjoyed today'sepisode, please don't forget to
follow, subscribe, leave areview and share the podcast
with others who might benefit.
Your support means the world tous, so stay tuned for our next
(48:56):
episode, where we'll continue todelve into the intersection of
empathy and marketing strategy.
Remember, because business isindeed personal, every
connection counts.
Until next time.
See you then.
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