Claire French - After a chance encounter during the Vancouver International Flamenco Festival, I was thrilled to sit down with Claire, a remarkable dancer, choreographer, and mentor with over 30 years of experience. In our conversation, we dive into her fascinating PhD research in dance, which explores the role of a choreographer as more than just an authority figure. She reflects on the significance of creating a space for collaboration between dancers and choreographers and how open-mindedness and a willingness to question can lead to new perspectives and growth in the world of dance.
We discuss the pivotal moments in Claire's career as she transitioned from a dancer to a choreographer and mentor. She shares her experiences with interdisciplinary collaboration and how it has shaped her creative process, as well as the importance of fostering dialogue and understanding between dancers and choreographers. Claire's unique perspective on the art of dance is genuinely enriching to all who listen.
Claire is a renowned choreographer, dance artist, teacher, and researcher with multiple awards in Europe and Canada. Claire was born and trained in Europe, but her journey led her to Canada when she pursued an MFA in Interdisciplinary Studies at SFU, Vancouver, where she became a permanent resident in 2001.
Don't miss this compelling conversation with a true artist and visionary in the world of dance, Claire.
Let's enjoy her story.
To connect with Claire
http://linkedin.com/in/claire-french-phd-77b74727
https://www.restlessproductions.com
https://dancehouse.ca/event/nova-dance/
https://thedancecentre.ca/event/creative-movement-for-seniors-8/2023-06-12/
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Thank you for listening - Hasta Pronto!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Daniela (00:00):
Hi, i'm Daniela.
Welcome to my podcast, becauseeveryone has a story, the place
to give ordinary people, stories, the chance to be shared and
preserved.
Our stories become the languageof connections.
(00:21):
Let's enjoy it, connect andrelate, because everyone has a
story.
Welcome, claire, to the show.
(02:33):
Thanks, daniela, lovely to behere.
We met six months ago.
Yeah, for what I wasvolunteering for?
the Flamenco show festival inVancouver 2022.
It was so fun to do.
I've been always volunteeringand then I met you.
What a gift.
We had a lovely conversation.
(02:54):
So here you are.
Claire French (02:56):
Absolutely, i feel the same way.
I feel the same way.
I'm so happy to have met youand I'm really looking forward
to our conversation today.
Daniela (03:02):
Yes, yes, Claire.
why do you want to share yourstory with us?
Claire French (03:07):
In all honesty, daniela, i am sharing my story
because you asked me to, partlybecause of the way our
conversation unfolded togethermade me realise that I have a
story to tell that other peoplemight be interested in.
I can take it out of the artmaking context or I can take it
(03:28):
out of my immediate circle ofdance and music and
collaborative performance work,but just that special place of
just realising that when otherpeople are interested in what
you have to say and they have away in to what you have to say,
then that you're creating aspace for people to have
conversation and you're creatinga space to find out about other
(03:50):
people.
I spend a lot of time, like you,talking to people and hosting a
podcast and helping each otherand mentoring dancers and all of
these things, and often I getasked what about your story?
When will someone interview you?
And so when you asked me, ifelt like this was kind of
serendipitous and that you werethe kind of this external force
coming in and saying now is thetime.
(04:12):
Long story short, it's all.
Partly you inspired this toactually go ahead and instigated
me actually telling it, butalso because I feel like this is
a really nice way of me tellingthe story in a more kind of
inclusive way, like perhaps morecomprehensively, outside of my
field.
Daniela (04:31):
Yes, so thank you.
Yes, it's true that when wewere talking, i have no idea
about dancing.
I love dancing and I'm not inthat world, but when you were
explaining what we were going totalk about, it was so
interesting And I thought I haveno idea of this world, but it
is fascinating what you have tosay, so that's why I thought you
have to share your story.
Claire French (04:50):
Thank you so much.
So, just in context frame, whenwe met, we met at a dance
festival, which was theVancouver International Flamenco
Festival, which I've just comein to start coordinating and
managing Flamenco Rosario, theFlamenco company.
So we met through our love ofdance and also our particular
(05:11):
passion for Flamenco dance inthis context, and so, while
Daniela is saying that she maybedoesn't feel like she is a
dancer, i can genuinely tell youthat her love for Flamenco and
her interest in that andinterest in my story says a lot
to me about how much she doesappreciate dance And therefore,
as a dance teacher, i feel likeit's just on the periphery,
(05:33):
before you were actually dancingyourself.
Daniela (05:35):
Yes, i know that I feel like eventually I have to learn
how to dance and take away thatstory that I had in my head
saying you know, you're halfGerman, you have two left feet.
No need anymore.
I want to learn how to dance.
Claire French (05:49):
It will happen.
Two left feet dancing is prettyspecial.
I think it's great.
Don't knock it.
Start there.
Daniela (05:56):
Wonderful Claire.
when did your story starts?
Claire French (05:59):
Okay, i chose the title Begin Anywhere because
I felt like I want to start thestory, not at the beginning of
my life, my whole history anddance, or anything, but quite
now, almost the last six monthsmeeting you, daniela, start
sparking this whole conversation, partly because it comes at a
time for me of starts and ends,just as in life.
(06:20):
If we're paying attention,we're always going to notice
starts and ends of things in ourlives.
But for me, this isparticularly an important
milestone because I was justI've just completed a PhD in
dance, i've just started a jobwith the Flamenco Festival and
Flamenco Rosario, i have threedecades of professional
(06:40):
experience in the dance worldand I've been on the planet for
50 years.
So I was like, okay, the BeginAnywhere is also a title that
comes from.
It's a quote from John Cage,who's a 20th century avant-garde
composer, mid 20th centurycomposer, and it was actually
given to me by somebody at ashow, a premiere of one of our
(07:00):
productions, and I just feltlike the person who gave it to
us really understood our workand understood us and understood
process in the same way that wedo, and that this idea of being
creative is often just aboutbeginning somewhere.
Starting is just about starting.
I thought what would be reallynice to start the story is to
(07:21):
maybe pick up on where we leftoff in terms of our conversation
around dance making and artmaking and just maybe explain
how my PhD could be in dance andwhat kind of research I did
that Because you you had adifferent point of view from the
dance teacher.
Yeah, in a nutshell, what I'vebeen thinking about and how I
(07:42):
might explain.
My PhD is My, my research is ona personal level.
What I was interested inexploring how, what is
choreography or what does itmean to be a choreographer,
beyond telling dancers what todo?
Because I feel like there's apre conception or a conception
out there in the world, like aperception of choreographers
(08:03):
that they're the boss, thedancers do what choreographers
tell them to do, and that allwork that's created by
choreographers Is about thechoreographers vision and and
the dancers are there asvehicles for the choreographers
vision and that is one possible,you know kind of way of
choreographing.
It's a little bit of an oldfashioned and out of date
perception.
Understandably it existsbecause that being in the world
(08:27):
for centuries that way.
But at the same time, we allknow in the contemporary dance
world and just in contemporarysociety, that there's a lot more
give and take, a lot morecontribution and even devising,
as we call it, happening in aroom, regardless of whether it's
dance or any other situation,any social situation.
There's a lot of give and take.
There's a lot of ideas thatcome up because of the people in
(08:50):
the room, because of howdifferent people respond to The
situation itself and the context, and that, for me, is a big
influence on how things evolveand how things emerge.
And so, as a choreographer, ireally wanted to just Embrace
that in my research and explorehow we create and how we, how a
(09:13):
concept might even emerge in agroup situation, how a piece
might evolve not just from oneperson's perspective and vision,
but from Everybody in the roomand from the combinations that
are in the room, still with thechoreographer contributing as a
choreographer.
And so that's where it gets alittle intricate and nuanced and
and subtle.
Because if you believe that achoreographer is the one telling
(09:35):
people what to do, then in myshared practice model there's a
point at which you go okay, well, that's fine, but then at some
point somebody has to leave andso the choreographer is going to
tell dancers what to do.
It's all nice to say that'swhat the process is, but at a
certain point the choreographeris going to have to be the boss
and going to have to demandcertain things and is going to
(09:55):
keep an eye on quality control.
You know those kinds of thingsand concepts, containment and
all of those.
I don't think that's necessarilythe way It has been happening
actually in the 21st centuryparticularly, and late 20th
century, and I also don't thinkit has to happen that way, and
so my research has been aroundthat.
(10:15):
So I brought in socialcognition, philosophy around
assemblage, mainly using Dullesand Gattari, who are very high
level aesthetic thinkers, triedto underpin all of my research
with those kinds of things in anacademic context, but in a in a
practical context, which issome of the elements that I've
also used in my process.
It really just is about whatare our conversations, what do
(10:38):
we discuss, what are our ownpreconceptions and assumptions?
when we walk into a studio fordancers and for choreographers
and really honestly, what can wemake together?
Like, how do we allow for eachperson's take on what's
happening in the room not onlyto influence what we're doing
but also change, as the more Ispeak, the more complex it gets,
(10:59):
the more less there are.
But that's also what I'm tryingto prove.
You know, in a sense, if I'mtrying to prove anything, it's
just that things happen.
When they happen, we staycreative, we stay positive, we
stay rigorous, we stay trying towork things out.
At a certain point We all callit and say this is what the work
is and within that, the stillflexibility and adaptability and
(11:19):
room for each person to bothgrow And to decide how they want
to practice and to bring intheir own relationship to their
practice into that process.
So it's very complex, but Ithink I'm just talking about
life is essentially.
I think I'm just talking aboutthat and maybe a creative life
from a privileged position thatway.
But but at the same time I'vehad conversations with
(11:41):
indigenous artists recently whoin Vancouver, like indigenous
lands muskwim, squamish and slaywith two peoples It's become
extremely important, significantand vital to kind of think
about ways in which we are thesame and ways in which we can
respect each other in process.
I am essentially talking abouta way of working which is quite
(12:05):
close to that way, but not thesame way.
It's not this, not the sameprocess.
So I've had some wonderfulconversations around.
This kind of openness in aprocess allows for people to
contribute fully.
That also brings up conflictand then how does one deal with
conflict, and so there's someinteresting processes there, but
it's to kind of try to explorethat conflict is going to be
(12:26):
there.
This isn't an openness or anequal practice, egalitarian
practice.
In that way.
It's more about embracing ourhumaneness, and that's difficult
.
That's difficult because we putthese go into situations
needing boundaries or needingbarriers, needing containment.
It's not necessarily aboutletting go of all of those, but
(12:46):
it is about awareness or selfawareness.
Daniela (12:48):
Well, you seem to be talking about, not only in the
dance world but in general,teamwork people collaborating
more than taking directions fromone person.
But what I want to know, claire, is you said that you've been
dancing for three decades now.
When did it happen to follow upand go back to your kind of
develop a story?
When did they happen that youbelieve, or you started to
(13:11):
believe, that this was the way,because before you obviously had
people that the choreographerswould tell you what to do?
Claire French (13:18):
Yeah, and I was a choreographer who told people
what to do as well.
I think what happened was thatthe work that was coming out of
that, i think I had arealization that part of the way
in which process was unfoldingwas creating a certain kind of
work, and so in process, therewere certain things in a process
(13:39):
that were being filtered outbecause of this need to feel or
obligation to decide on behalfof a group or on behalf of the
dancer and me, how a pieceshould develop, which meant that
things were filtered out, whichmeant that some of the essence
of what was being created andwhat some of the really creative
(14:01):
stuff was being ignored.
So there'd be a moment, say,the dancers are on stage, a
dancer is on stage, i'm not, i'mwatching.
I was a dancer dancer for along time in works.
At this point I'd already madethe step to move out of being on
the stage myself, so I'dalready become a kind of
overseer of a project and theoutside eye.
(14:21):
And then watching the dance onstage and being like, oh, where
did that thing idea go that wehad, and flashbacks to in the
studio when it would be like, oh, i remember a time when this
was really felt much moredeveloped than I'm seeing on
stage right now, and I hadobviously in the process,
decided to go in a particulardirection.
While I was watching it onstage I got this, as many
(14:43):
choreographers talk about thisrealization that there were
other things happening in theprocess.
That would have been a betterchoice.
There would have been a betterchoice for the work And, knowing
that you'd explored that in thestudio already, you have that
information in your body thatyou went a different direction.
I would say that this is forchoreographers either just
starting out or formalchoreographers who put things on
(15:05):
stage to who designed the workfor the stage.
So make decisions almost likethis will happen over here and
then they'll move over here andthis will happen over here.
And so you start to put on alayer of external design onto
the work, whereas in the processthere can be a lot more kind of
organic development and thatcan feel a little bit more of a
(15:26):
vulnerable place for the dancerand for the choreographer.
And so you make quick decisionsand put it here and put it here
and compartmentalize andbecause you're thinking about
the overall piece, but in theprocess of that sometimes you
can miss the essence of the work, and so what I realized?
I got to a point where I wasconfident that I was putting
work on the stage that I wasproud of, that I felt like was
(15:46):
thorough and rigorous, and thenI noticed that there was another
way to do it.
I became obsessed with thisother way to do it And I
realized, in order to do thisother way, i had to change how I
choreographed, and so thatbecame why I went into this.
Research Also came from I'd beenmentoring a lot of
choreographers and dancers for awhile and I realized I needed
(16:08):
to put myself through that sameprocess that I designed for
other choreographers and dancersfor a while, just to kind of
take care of this change that Iwanted to make in my work And of
course, that's something to dowith aging.
I suddenly realized that thework on stage wasn't necessarily
representing me now.
It was representing maybeperhaps a younger version of me
as an artist, and I know it'svery insular.
(16:30):
I like I'm talking very muchinside my world, but it really
is about that.
Like this story is about that,the meme wanting to change the
work I made.
I realized I had to change myprocess in order to change the
work I was making.
Daniela (16:42):
And do you remember when you were a dancer that you
just followed the lead of thechoreographer and now you are
going to change it to?
I want your opinion as a dancer.
How would you have felt whenyou were a dancer?
Claire French (16:56):
So this takes me all the way back to when I
started dancing at the age ofthree, and now I'm 50.
So I've actually danced myentire life Like I'm still
dancing, danced yesterday,danced this morning, like I'm
still dancing all the time.
You've hit a really good partof the story, i think, or kernel
of a story, daniela, because Iwould honestly say that from
(17:17):
three up and all the way throughme dancing all the way up to
2012, really as a performer inother people's works, there has
always been this thread of beingobedient to a certain degree,
being an interpreter, whichmeans I have to bring myself my
imaginative self, my technicalself, my social self, all of
(17:37):
these things as a dancer into asituation.
And then there's a point atwhich perhaps my interpretation
sometimes, for some people,tipped too far into my own
vision, tipped too far into mystory as a dancer, which
impinges sometimes onto achoreographer's or onto the
aesthetic of a work, so thatit's not necessarily getting in
(17:58):
the way of a choreographer'svision, but it might be just
kind of pushing the aesthetic alittle bit in my direction, into
the dancer's direction.
And so I realized there was apoint at which I was becoming
just as interested in being thecreative person who could tell
the story and unfold the storyrather than just interpret
somebody else's perspective on astory or on a theme.
(18:21):
And at that point I realizedthat I was perhaps going to be a
little bit held back by being adancer, because you wouldn't
follow the lead.
Yeah, because I couldn't allowfor my daydreaming as a dancer
to take over in my performance.
I always had to make sure that Iwas reeling that in a little
bit and that it was always andnot to sound like a diva, i've
(18:42):
never really.
I mean, i have my moments, as weall do, but I've never really
been a diva dancer.
I think, if I take it out ofthat dancer-choreographer
relationship which is hard forme to do, but in this instance I
think what I can say issometimes the inspiration from
dancing just enough for me towant to go off and tell my own
story, to feel like I was in agroup and if I didn't know what
(19:03):
a choreographer was asking for,but dancing was making me feel
something, but that wasn't rightfor the choreographer and they
couldn't explain to me why itwasn't right.
That would be frustrating for mebecause it would get in the way
of me being able to express notjust myself but to work with
dance, to engage with dance, andI didn't like repeating things
a lot.
I like improvising more anddevising more and I felt like
(19:27):
sometimes if you're repeating aphrase over and over and over in
a rehearsal, it can feel like atechnique class and I just
wasn't interested in spending mytime doing that.
I'm not undermining or, likeyou know, wanting to disrespect
people who do rehearse somethinga lot, because i think there's
a real I'm finesse in that, butfor me as a dancer it wasn't
(19:50):
something i was interested inwhat you were dancing since you
were three, so you already hadthe skills.
Daniela (19:54):
If i have to start learning now, i probably need to
repeat many time.
Claire French (19:59):
Yeah, but i think in a dance process,
sometimes in a choreography, youcan spend a lot of time in
rehearsal just going over andover and over and eight count,
sixteen count, thirty two count,phrase.
I don't create that kind ofwork.
I know a lot of choreographerswho don't count.
You know a lot of pieces arenot created through counting.
That's a particular style and aparticular process.
It doesn't get to theperformance of the work.
(20:21):
It keeps you in a technicallandscape, it keeps you in the
Mechanism, it keeps you in thefunction.
It doesn't get to concept, itdoesn't get to interpretation,
it doesn't get to the actingpart.
You know other performing partsand i think for me i have.
My choreography is also aboutthe stage context and is about
training in performance, whichisn't repetition, it's about
feeling.
Daniela (20:41):
How old were you when you realize, okay, i don't, i
really want to be creative aswell as a dancer.
Claire French (20:47):
I find this really fascinating, cuz i also
think dancer's extremelycreative.
I think you have to beextremely creative, is it as a
dancer and i think this is oneof the things in my research
that i'm also trying to say Isthat, as a dancer, dances are
giving their creative skills andtechnical skills in every
single process, every singletime.
I don't think you can dancewithout being creative.
(21:08):
However, to come to your pointabout the separation between
being an interpreter, i suppose,and creating the kind of
context of the story and allthose things for a dancer to
dance inside of with, i think irealize that i dance from that
place of, in a way, story orcreating something that i want
to follow.
I feel like it's how thedancing Exists with other
(21:32):
disciplines, so it, how is thedance supported by the music and
also supporting music, how doesthe scene and the stage and the
lighting and all of thosecomponents Feed into the same
idea or offer something new tothe idea that the dance is
trying to do?
i mean, i'm reallyinterdisciplinary in my thinking
and i think, as a dancer, ifound that that wasn't.
(21:54):
Nobody wanted my opinion onthose things.
i was never asked.
I think it was something aboutwanting to be involved in the
big picture more.
Not be a part of the bigpicture, one of the colors of a
piece in an abstract painting,but actually be.
Take care of the frame as well.
Daniela (22:10):
You can't take care of the frame if you're a dancer you
were following the lead and youwere very obedient, as you said
, for Many years, and tell when,what age, that you decided well
, i went to university to do mydance degree and at eighteen and
before that i didn't even knowthere was a dance degree, i
didn't even know it was possibleto do that.
Claire French (22:30):
I came upon that serendipitously When exploring
like journalism, english degreesor drama degrees, and then when
i was in university still verymuch in that land of dancer even
an improviser at that point andcharacter dances and i did all
sorts of styles, so not justcontemporary.
I was, i've been a disco dancer, ballroom dancer in a tap
dancer, in song and dance girland i was in musical theater and
(22:53):
i did everything coming up tocontemporary dance.
I realized in the contemporarydance world there was room for
my interdisciplinary ideas, alittle bit more poetic, a little
bit more avant garde, maybe alittle bit more off the car for
abstract.
But even at university i saidi'll be a dancer, i'll be a
teacher, i'll be a dance writer,i'll be all these things, but i
won't choreograph, because ithink i found it so hard, i
(23:14):
think it took everything out ofme, but of course that's
essentially the path i had totake yes, so do you meet a lot
of dancers that were in asimilar point of view as you?
Daniela (23:23):
i feel like it's perhaps a matter of personality
some people like to just Followand dance and some other people
want to be more independent.
Claire French (23:32):
Yeah, i think personality to a certain degree,
yes, but i think there's also apoint of which your
relationship with dance can bebest realized or actualized in
the world.
And i do agree.
I think there are some very shychoreographers, though
introverted choreographers aswell who have such Beautiful
stories to tell, and maybe theywork with more gregarious dances
(23:53):
who are able to bring somethingout in a much more magnified
way than the choreographer couldthemselves performing, and so
there is a really importantrelationship there and which i
feel like you know they kind ofis like the in yang.
They belong together in orderfor you to receive the whole
picture, and who Who is doingwhat is is much more kind of
(24:13):
complex.
But i also think i think itdepends on your relationship
with with dance and with artmaking And then your
relationship with performanceand your relationship with the
world, like how you want to be acreative in the world, how you
want to live.
I think that's a lot to do withit.
I think it's a lifestyle choiceas well as it's a Personality
(24:34):
choice, if that makes sense, isee clear.
Daniela (24:36):
You went to university and you want to be a teacher
dancer.
And then what happened?
how did you switch?
Ain't a little bit like?
Claire French (24:44):
you asking me to be to do this podcast.
I was asked by an opera companyin leeds, which was a where i
did my undergraduate degree, ifi would choreograph the opera
and i was just like i was in itas a dancer as well, but i did
choreographic.
So they wanted me tochoreograph Numbers, like some
of the dance numbers inside theopera, but also work with
(25:05):
principal actors and operasingers on gestures and movement
and posture.
How that came about, i think,was Through somebody somebody's
mom, like a dancer i was workingwith and her mom had asked
because her daughter was in oneof my pieces.
It was a very people Networking, kind of like personal way
(25:26):
built and i had such a good time, we had such a wonderful time.
They loved what i did and theyinvited me back the next year
and it just became Like i saidabout the interdisciplinary
context.
It showed me thatchoreographers have a role,
dances have a role in thisbigger theatrical place, but
also taught me how i could bringthat back into just a dance
(25:47):
work.
I said just meaning no other,you know back to the formal
dance creation.
So it was really a two waything.
It was like i was asked to comein and do it.
I said yes immediately.
I was fearless back then.
I mean, i still am to a certaindegree, but it's changed over
the years.
Yeah, i just, i just reallywanted it, but always find
myself in these positions andafterwards i would be a bit like
(26:07):
i'm never doing that again orthat's too much, and oh my gosh,
what was i thinking?
But then it just picked up andit became something i realized i
knew how i knew how to do.
But that also connects to laterin my life when i decided i
knew how to do it in a certainway.
But now there is somethingdeeper that i wanted to explore.
(26:27):
So that comes back to me makinga change in my practice later
in life, if that makes sense,which led to the phd.
Daniela (26:34):
But i feel like you, even that you were a
choreographer, with the oldfashioned way of thinking you
still wear democratic.
Claire French (26:40):
Perhaps when somebody came with an idea, you,
instead of rejecting it, werealso more open than other people
, yeah, but i've also been insituations where i've told
somebody they need to be quietbecause i've said this and i
don't like the word regret, buti do.
I do regret saying it.
But also some of the things isaid help me realize that's not
who i want to be And that's notwho i want to be in the room.
(27:02):
So some of the things i havesaid in the past is we don't
have time for your opinion, ithink in a nice way, but never
is never nice to hear that rightfor anybody.
In any, however much i try totake care of my words, i'm still
saying something To somebodywhich is no, and quickly, so
indis and decisively.
So that's a shock to anybodysystem, understandably.
(27:22):
But i would say i haven't gottime for your opinion and my
opinion counts cuz i'm the onepaying you.
That is not cool with meanymore And it wasn't at the
time, but at the same time itwas understood by everybody in
the room.
It was cutting but it wasn'toffensive, although it should
(27:44):
have been.
Like you know, it wasunderstood and I'm not okay with
it being understood.
We don't need to talk to eachother like that in the art world
, but it happens far too often.
And then another time which Idon't think was my fault I was
really, really upset withsomebody who didn't bring a
costume for a photo shoot, eventhough I had asked everybody to
(28:06):
make sure that they had.
They'd even told me what theywere bringing and this one
person didn't bring it.
And it wasn't just a photoshoot, it was also a videoing of
the piece with a professionalvideographer.
And I was so upset with thisperson for not bringing what
they said they would bringbecause they lied to me and said
that they didn't get the email,even though they'd responded to
the email, And so the truth ofthe matter was just all in my
(28:27):
cart but there's nothing I coulddo.
Thankfully, I've been aroundenough to know that you have a
contingency plan at all timesand I just so happen to have a
spare costume.
That could be costume, I say,but like outfit, that matching
kind of complimentary outfitsfor the video.
Don't like the word costumeanymore either, But there is
something I was able to.
(28:48):
She was able to be dressed andit worked.
That was hard for me, Like thatwas a difficult situation for
me.
It feels like sabotage whenthese things happen, but it's an
urgent situation, sometimes notlife or death, but in that
moment it's now or never thatcan get heated, And we're in a
creative space, And so there isan element of everything being
heightened, but I don't thinkthat's an excuse.
(29:10):
If things are heightened, youhave to pay more attention to
how you're speaking to eachother.
Daniela (29:14):
So how many years pass until you notice?
okay, I wanna change, It'sgotta be 20.
Claire French (29:20):
Okay, and partly that's down to, yeah, around
that, 18, 20 years maybe, and Ithink that partly that's because
I was busy.
I was busy choreographing andteaching and doing a lot of
administration, which I do nowand producing and
self-presenting, and also, andas the world itself and the
dance world was changing and Iwas doing everything all of
(29:41):
these components some dancers Iwas working with who were dance
makers as well, so some of themhad problems with me doing
everything.
They wanted somebody else tospeak to, not just me, about
costume or schedule or pay orthose things, and it was always
me that they had to speak to.
And I realized I was justgetting to a point where dancers
were needing different things.
They had different expectations.
(30:03):
The dance industry was changing.
Was I keeping up And could Iadapt?
Did I want to be part of thisworld?
And what was going on for methere, like a whole bunch of
things, made me evaluate andreevaluate how I wanted to be in
the world, how I wanted to becreative.
I mean.
Daniela (30:17):
It's opened up a whole bunch of other things for me now
as well, which is really great,that's beautiful, that you had
that introspection and realizingand willingness to question
that versus a lot of people arelike no, this is my way.
I've been doing it for 20 yearsand I know and I'm not changing
, you're changing.
So I feel like Bravo to you forhaving that attitude towards
(30:40):
change.
Claire French (30:41):
So I have to say I've also been informed very
much by being a rehearsaldirector for other
choreographers.
I think this is why alsoanother reason why I wanted to
share my story is because insidethis insular world of dance and
choreography, i've done so.
I've taken on so many roles Andit sounds like organized chaos
really.
I've been a rehearsal directorfor more established
(31:02):
choreographers than me.
I've witnessed them be thosepeople.
I've been doing this for years.
I know it's my way or thehighway, and you're like.
You see it differently.
I see it differently.
As a rehearsal director, myrelationship with the dancers
and with the choreographer isI'm the bridge.
In some circumstances it hasn'thad to be a bridge.
They're not at either ends ofthe bridge.
We're all on the bridge, in themiddle, together.
(31:23):
And then other times it'sliterally been.
I've had to communicate andfacilitate conversation between
a choreographer and dancersbecause the divide is just so
great.
There has to be something inthe middle to help.
It's just too.
The distance is just too greatfor them to hear each other, and
so I stand in the middle andholler back and forth between
them and bring them closertogether or organize it in such
(31:46):
a way that they can all be whothey are from either end of the
bridge And the audience canstill enjoy the energy and the
dynamics that come from that,because there is a sense of it.
It's not necessary foreverybody to change.
I think it's just necessary tohave a respect for others and to
have more space to hear otherpeople.
It doesn't mean you have tonecessarily change, although for
(32:09):
some people that is change.
Daniela (32:12):
Yes, this goes also in all the areas of your life.
I was in a meeting the otherday.
We were talking about a projectthat I was working really hard
on.
The other person had a comment.
I was getting really upset andit's because it was my baby,
This project, it was me.
It was something silly.
So I had to go to other peopleto try to see what is the point
of the other person, because Icouldn't see it And I feel that
(32:34):
that's sometimes what happens.
You close your mind becausethis was so close to me.
I was biased completely.
You do need that help.
Claire French (32:42):
Yeah, and to come back, to when you said I've
always seemed to give room forother people's opinions or it's
always mattered to me what otherpeople are thinking or how
they're feeling in a situation.
I think that's become a bonusfor me now Because I've always
been that way.
I haven't had to actuallychange.
I'm just communicatingdiplomatic or democratic place
(33:03):
that I stand in, Maybe becauseI've been a choreographer and a
dancer, Maybe because I feelthat they are different but they
offer different things toprojects.
Maybe I can do it that way.
But I've always been interestedin facilitation because I think
there's something so powerful ingiving space to different
opinions.
So powerful because thesituation is never one person's
perspective on it And in thedance world we've always given
(33:23):
that to the audience.
We've always accepted that anaudience is.
Every single member of anaudience can go away with a
different resonance or adifferent feeling.
So why would we deny that inthe process of the dancers
having a different feeling tothe work that the choreographer
is giving them?
And we don't.
But sometimes we don't give itas much room as we give to an
(33:44):
audience being able to take thework on, and maybe just because
it's closer or trust, And it'strust in ourselves to share
something in a studio, in thatvulnerable place.
By the time it gets to anaudience, we feel like we've
massaged it enough and takencare of it enough to give to an
audience something that they cantake away.
So there's something about thatspace.
Daniela (34:03):
And Claire.
So when you decided to change,you were probably choreographing
the same dancers as you werebefore.
Did you have some kind ofsurprising reactions?
People will be like, oh, what'swrong with Claire?
She's been more democratic.
Do you have any experienceslike that?
Yeah, kind of.
Claire French (34:22):
I'll just say two things.
One is that I think some peoplehave always seen me as more
democratic than a lot ofchoreographers they've worked
with, so I've always been more.
But then there's always beenthis point that I was talking
about before where it's likewhoa, suddenly Chloe will shift
into this gear of it's going tobe like this, it's going to be
(34:43):
this, it's going to be this andtriggered.
I used to be triggered at thatpoint of triggering, or the
tipping point as I refer to itand other choreographers refer
to it, but I talk about it in mythesis.
Now I'm trying to pay attentionto that tipping point moment
where expectations from thedancers are that the
choreographer will do, willbehave a certain way As we
(35:04):
approach that tipping point in aprocess.
I'm trying to manageexpectations of dancers that I'm
not going to do that that Iused to do.
I'm going to keep it open.
And so what does that mean?
That means it's a longerprocess.
I have to say It does mean thatit does make the process longer
because decisions are madeslower.
However, it also means thatprocess doesn't quite mean the
(35:24):
same thing.
So, at any point, you couldinvite an audience in.
Once you've got stuff happening.
An audience can come into aprocess.
It doesn't have to feel likeit's a product that is finished,
tight, ready to tour.
Bang.
Here it goes.
This is the piece that's goingto tour.
It's the same, much more opento.
Even though we have a processand a piece, it's still going to
evolve, even in front of anaudience.
(35:45):
Different audiences will getdifferent experiences, not just
from them, but because the workis different.
That's a big change.
I'm also at a time right nowwhere I'm still I'm actually a
little bit afraid of going backinto the studio to do a group
piece, in case I fall back intomy old ways.
Daniela (36:02):
Claire, being a choreographer, in a way, is you
are creating something.
What the mindset that you haveto adapt or change is that okay,
this is not just my creation,it's everyone's creation And you
are not taking all the credit.
It's everyone's credit, So it'sa teamwork really.
Claire French (36:21):
Two things.
William Forsythe talks aboutchoreography and dancing being
two different disciplines.
He also mentions thatchoreography doesn't need
dancers.
Choreographing is an organizingmovement in space and time
leading to an event.
That could be one very generaldefinition of choreographing
which doesn't mention the bodiesof dancers.
Necessarily, Movement doesn'thave to be just associated with
(36:44):
dancers and dancing, But ofcourse that's how we know it and
that is how I'm a choreographerof dances.
As soon as you open the door toit being movement as opposed to
dance, that implies dancetechnique and all of these
things you can already imaginethat if you're organizing
movement, it could be movementof objects, it could be movement
of kind of people thatchoreographers have done work
(37:06):
with sheets blowing in a wind,with a fan on it, just a washing
line and a sheet hanging andthe audience watches the sheet
blow on stage.
So these are still organizingmovement, our experience of
movement.
I think I might have gone off alittle bit from what you were
talking about, but I think thereis an element that over my
(37:26):
career I've also done a lot ofimagining choreography,
Imagining what it is, imaginingwhat it would look like.
I dream of choreographiessometimes which obviously the
dancer isn't there, but becauseI've worked with so many dancers
, That's interesting.
But then sometimes it doesn'tbecome a work, a dance work,
Sometimes it becomes a poem orit becomes just a diary entry.
(37:49):
I put that sense that I had,that experience I had, which is
also drawing attention to my ownbody, into my administrative
work.
You know, sometimes I use thatas the focus for the day, right,
And I have that access.
I think it's really importantto talk.
There's access that being adancer on my life has allowed me
(38:11):
to have, Like it's almost likea different level of
consciousness, I think.
Daniela (38:14):
Yes, how fascinating, fascinating.
And when you talk to otherpeople at your same level as you
, are they the same as creative.
They dream about this like youdo.
Claire French (38:25):
Yeah, but I think it comes out in different
modes.
I mean, one of the questionsyou asked me was if earlier, the
second point I was going tomake after talking about the
studio is is just how, and Ithink this answers this question
as well.
So it's a nice segue.
When I've talked to dancers andchoreographers about my
research, they just say yes, yes, yes, yes.
Like it's not written about inan academic context, but we all
(38:47):
know this And we know it.
There's a title of knowing in mybones of a dance maker has
written a book called Knowing inMy Bones And it's an old book
from, i believe, from the 50s,60s, but it's a very we know in
our bones.
I mean, we have these kinds ofconversations.
It's just helpful because it'shard to put this stuff into
words.
So we do it through thesemetaphors that still involve the
(39:11):
body, that help us kind of talkabout the somatic or inner
world that we all have, and ofcourse, our inner world are all
different, but we also share aknowledge base that allows us to
kind of understand what theother person's saying, even
though it's gobbledygook to most.
Daniela (39:27):
So yeah, And you decided to do a master's, or you
already had a master's and thisis a PhD.
Claire French (39:35):
Yeah.
So I did a PhD this time, butthe master's does lead me back
to my story.
Another point of change is whenI moved to Vancouver.
So I moved to Vancouver in the90s 1997.
I think we both moved here onthe same time.
I seem to have.
Yes, but I moved to do mymaster's degree.
I moved from England, fromLondon, england, to to Vancouver
(39:57):
to do my MFA ininterdisciplinary studies.
Now perhaps you can start tounderstand why I called this
begin anywhere.
Because I mean, my life is soiterative, and as all of our
lives are.
But you know I don't havechildren to talk about, i don't
even have pets.
You know I try to keep plantsalive.
I'm trying, but you know Idon't, i don't have those things
(40:17):
as milestones in my life.
My career and my travel and myart making are the milestones in
my life, like.
So that's kind of it's not myfull identity anymore, but it
was for a long time.
So moved to Vancouver in 1997 todo my MFA in interdisciplinary
studies at Simon FraserUniversity.
Now there is a campus downtownin downtown Vancouver, but at
(40:39):
that time we were up on the hillin the Shacks at the end of the
end of the lane, just be wherethe bus loop is.
We were up there hidden away,yes, and I met some amazing
people there, including mypartner.
I left my whole family back inEngland, a sister and brother
and a large extended family.
So many stories there too.
A lot of change happens weekly,daily in my family, in my
(41:02):
extended family, for sure.
Yeah So, but I'm here with mypartner mainly, and we have I
feel like it's a very artisticlife We lead in Vancouver.
I know not everybody seesVancouver that way, but for us
it is genuinely who we are, whywe are and how we are here in
Vancouver, and I feel quiteprivileged to be experiencing
Vancouver in that way.
(41:22):
The masters in interdisciplinarystudies I mainly did a little
bit of visual art studies and alittle bit of creative writing
and dance, but I had technologyin my show and music in my show,
and it was all original And thetechnology is a whole other
story.
There's a whole path and what Iwas trying to do with
technology back then that youcouldn't do at the time but you
(41:43):
can easily do now.
So that's a.
That was.
That was crazy, but that wasfun.
That was like me turning.
You know, it was like analogue,digital really, because I had,
there were so many processes forme to get a life forms figure
projected onto the stage todance with me in 1999.
Now that just seems likesomething you know, it's more
likely for me to be in the worldof that figure, you know,
(42:05):
rather than the other way around.
But that was a.
That was a thing.
Yeah, so I was looking atdigital technology and live
performance back then.
Well, i think I walked awayfrom all of that at the same
time.
I don't think I ever have,because it's always been
necessary for my work to haveboth the analogue and the
digital and some capacity.
And it's about creating worlds,what I've heard the term
(42:26):
worldizing, and I've heard theterm worlding quite often for
how people build and createthings, and that's in the design
world as well as in the artworld and in the academic world.
But I think it's a really goodterm because you're kind of
creating a world.
Daniela (42:39):
So you did the masters, you stay in Vancouver and
you've been performing andworking here, and then you
decided to do the PhD after manyyears, yeah.
Claire French (42:50):
I'd always thought that I would do one.
I was the first person in myfamily, my immediate family to
go to university to get anundergraduate degree.
But I've always felt that Iwanted to and a lot of my
friends were doing it.
I couldn't decide what my topicwould be.
I couldn't quite decide, and ittook me six and a half seven
years to finish.
But then I found my trackthrough working through my, the
(43:11):
mentor program that I wasrunning, i realized that was
what I wanted to put myselfthrough And I found this really
interesting area of researchthat only belonged in a
university, to be honest, inthat university context.
Pulling it back into theprofessional world is now my
objective, my motivation.
But at the time I needed, ineeded the academic world.
I needed the institution tohelp me realize parts of this.
(43:35):
Then, while I was in that world, i needed the professional
world and the practice to helpinform me as to how I was going
about doing it.
And now I need to free myselffrom the academic world for a
while, because it was prettyintense and I need to walk away.
What is the PhD?
So I have a PhD in.
I mean, it's a Doctor ofPhilosophy and my title is
Choreographic SensemakingDeveloping a Shared Practice
(43:57):
Framework.
Choreographic Sensemaking isthe term I came up with to help
define what I am, what I'vefocused on, just the idea being
that it's not making sense ofthe choreography.
It's actually using sensemakingas a process, as a
choreographic process to help agroup and to help all of the
(44:18):
collaborators and everybodywho's in the work choreograph
something together.
So it is choreographed, it isco-authored, it is about
something evolving and it'sabout finding a way to filter
and, in the process of refininga work and refining perspective
and refining your own practice,it can remain open, but it's not
(44:41):
just a free-for-all.
So the sensemaking is like isabout everybody feeding into
making sense of the process andthe choreography comes from that
.
Daniela (44:52):
You graduated, You got your PhD Just when I saw you
because I think it was Octoberthat you were going to England
to do that, to get it.
Claire French (45:00):
Yes, i graduated in October and I now have it on
my wall in a frame, and sowhat's next for you?
Well, i'm workingadministratively for the
Flamenco Rosario and theFlamenco Festival.
I'm also helping develop a newfacility in Vancouver.
I'm also creating new work withthe company Restless
Productions that I'm co-artisticdirector for, alongside my
(45:24):
partner, composer James Maxwell,done a research and creation
phase of an interdisciplinarywork which is more like an
installation that an audience orinvited guests can move around
in.
I've gone back into the studiofor myself to perform again
because in that roundaboutcyclical way, i feel like
there's more information now inthis body as I've approached 50
(45:47):
and I teach and things, butthere's something new in my body
that I want to explore, perhapsto perform, but at least to
investigate.
So I can't miss that.
So I'm back to that.
A bunch of other things.
I'm actually the host of theDance Center podcast as well And
they choose the guests and Iinterview the guests on behalf
(46:08):
of the Dance Center And I teachseniors every Monday in the
power of dance seniors or activeaging class.
I also teach line dancing atthe Holiday Inn.
Yeah, you are busy.
You're busy.
I know.
I told you organized chaos, mancrazy, crazy life.
Daniela (46:23):
So we will have to put everything on the show notes so
that people can follow you inone way or another, because we
have to see a show, we have tosee you dancing, we can go and
dance with you.
All kind of stuff.
Claire French (46:34):
Yeah, please come and dance with me when
that's my favorite, If I can getthe world to dance.
my goal in life is to get theworld to dance.
If I saw everybody walking downthe street doing some kind of
dance, that would be the world Iwant to live in.
Daniela (46:49):
Yes, I think everybody will be happier, because moving
dancing is just a beautifulthing.
Yeah, it doesn't have to be forlong.
Claire French (46:55):
Just a little skip here and there, a little
hip, push your hip out once in awhile, walk a little
differently, get a little bouncein your step and feel it.
I just think that it makes allthe difference in the world.
I really do believe thatWonderful.
Daniela (47:08):
Thank you so much, Claire, for sharing your story
and explaining to us and to mebecause I really don't know
anything about your world, buthow fascinating it is The world
of dancing, choreography and allyour ways of thinking and how
things are changing.
I'm glad that you arepro-changed and pro-elevating
the way things are.
Thank you.
Claire French (47:27):
I'm obviously not the only one, but I really
do appreciate you being willingto put this on as a story.
Honestly, this is a life and Iknow everybody's life is a story
.
I was a little nervous becausethis might not be a story to
some people, but it really is tome and I think you gave me
space to be able to share that.
I hope other people feel theway they are in the world is
(47:49):
enough of a story, because itdoes help other people go.
Oh well, actually, if that's astory, then mine's a story or
this is what I value in life.
This person values this andthis is what I value in life.
I think that's a beautifulthing you're doing here with
this podcast.
Thank you, thank you.
Daniela (48:05):
I think it's great that people could listen to your
story and learn things that theywouldn't otherwise, because
we're not in your world and wemay never be.
But hearing your perspective, Ithink that next time somebody
goes to a show, they will bemore appreciative.
Claire French (48:17):
That's great.
I'm not speaking on behalf ofall dancers and choreographers
and I think everybody knows thatif you are at all interested,
then just Googlingchoreographers or just finding
out, even on YouTube, interviewswith choreographers and getting
the wide, wide perspectivebecause it is a wide, wide, wide
world.
It doesn't mean that we just doone thing or have one view or
(48:38):
see the world in a particularway.
We really do bring our wholeselves to our profession.
If you are at all triggered bythis to find out more, then I
suggest you kind of go and hearthe contradictions that other
choreographers will say to me.
Daniela (48:53):
Thanks, daniela.
Thank you.
Thank you, claire.
I hope you enjoyed today'sepisode.
I am Daniela and you werelistening to, because Everyone
Has a Story.
Please take five seconds rightnow and think of somebody in
your life that may enjoy whatyou just heard, or someone that
has a story to be shared andpreserved.
(49:14):
When you think of that person,shoot them a text with the link
of this podcast.
This would allow the ordinarymagic to go further.
Join me next time for anotherstory conversation.
Thank you for listening.
See you soon.
Hi, i'm Daniela.
Welcome to my podcast, becauseeveryone has a story, the place
to give ordinary people, stories, the chance to be shared and
preserved.
Our stories become the languageof connections.
(00:21):
Let's enjoy it, connect andrelate, because everyone has a
story.
Welcome, claire, to the show.
(02:33):
Thanks, daniela, lovely to behere.
We met six months ago.
Yeah, for what I wasvolunteering for?
the Flamenco show festival inVancouver 2022.
It was so fun to do.
I've been always volunteeringand then I met you.
What a gift.
We had a lovely conversation.
(02:54):
So here you are.
Claire French (02:56):
Absolutely, i feel the same way.
I feel the same way.
I'm so happy to have met youand I'm really looking forward
to our conversation today.
Daniela (03:02):
Yes, yes, Claire.
why do you want to share yourstory with us?
Claire French (03:07):
In all honesty, daniela, i am sharing my story
because you asked me to, partlybecause of the way our
conversation unfolded togethermade me realise that I have a
story to tell that other peoplemight be interested in.
I can take it out of the artmaking context or I can take it
(03:28):
out of my immediate circle ofdance and music and
collaborative performance work,but just that special place of
just realising that when otherpeople are interested in what
you have to say and they have away in to what you have to say,
then that you're creating aspace for people to have
conversation and you're creatinga space to find out about other
(03:50):
people.
I spend a lot of time, like you,talking to people and hosting a
podcast and helping each otherand mentoring dancers and all of
these things, and often I getasked what about your story?
When will someone interview you?
And so when you asked me, ifelt like this was kind of
serendipitous and that you werethe kind of this external force
coming in and saying now is thetime.
(04:12):
Long story short, it's all.
Partly you inspired this toactually go ahead and instigated
me actually telling it, butalso because I feel like this is
a really nice way of me tellingthe story in a more kind of
inclusive way, like perhaps morecomprehensively, outside of my
field.
Daniela (04:31):
Yes, so thank you.
Yes, it's true that when wewere talking, i have no idea
about dancing.
I love dancing and I'm not inthat world, but when you were
explaining what we were going totalk about, it was so
interesting And I thought I haveno idea of this world, but it
is fascinating what you have tosay, so that's why I thought you
have to share your story.
Claire French (04:50):
Thank you so much.
So, just in context frame, whenwe met, we met at a dance
festival, which was theVancouver International Flamenco
Festival, which I've just comein to start coordinating and
managing Flamenco Rosario, theFlamenco company.
So we met through our love ofdance and also our particular
(05:11):
passion for Flamenco dance inthis context, and so, while
Daniela is saying that she maybedoesn't feel like she is a
dancer, i can genuinely tell youthat her love for Flamenco and
her interest in that andinterest in my story says a lot
to me about how much she doesappreciate dance And therefore,
as a dance teacher, i feel likeit's just on the periphery,
(05:33):
before you were actually dancingyourself.
Daniela (05:35):
Yes, i know that I feel like eventually I have to learn
how to dance and take away thatstory that I had in my head
saying you know, you're halfGerman, you have two left feet.
No need anymore.
I want to learn how to dance.
Claire French (05:49):
It will happen.
Two left feet dancing is prettyspecial.
I think it's great.
Don't knock it.
Start there.
Daniela (05:56):
Wonderful Claire.
when did your story starts?
Claire French (05:59):
Okay, i chose the title Begin Anywhere because
I felt like I want to start thestory, not at the beginning of
my life, my whole history anddance, or anything, but quite
now, almost the last six monthsmeeting you, daniela, start
sparking this whole conversation, partly because it comes at a
time for me of starts and ends,just as in life.
(06:20):
If we're paying attention,we're always going to notice
starts and ends of things in ourlives.
But for me, this isparticularly an important
milestone because I was justI've just completed a PhD in
dance, i've just started a jobwith the Flamenco Festival and
Flamenco Rosario, i have threedecades of professional
(06:40):
experience in the dance worldand I've been on the planet for
50 years.
So I was like, okay, the BeginAnywhere is also a title that
comes from.
It's a quote from John Cage,who's a 20th century avant-garde
composer, mid 20th centurycomposer, and it was actually
given to me by somebody at ashow, a premiere of one of our
(07:00):
productions, and I just feltlike the person who gave it to
us really understood our workand understood us and understood
process in the same way that wedo, and that this idea of being
creative is often just aboutbeginning somewhere.
Starting is just about starting.
I thought what would be reallynice to start the story is to
(07:21):
maybe pick up on where we leftoff in terms of our conversation
around dance making and artmaking and just maybe explain
how my PhD could be in dance andwhat kind of research I did
that Because you you had adifferent point of view from the
dance teacher.
Yeah, in a nutshell, what I'vebeen thinking about and how I
(07:42):
might explain.
My PhD is My, my research is ona personal level.
What I was interested inexploring how, what is
choreography or what does itmean to be a choreographer,
beyond telling dancers what todo?
Because I feel like there's apre conception or a conception
out there in the world, like aperception of choreographers
(08:03):
that they're the boss, thedancers do what choreographers
tell them to do, and that allwork that's created by
choreographers Is about thechoreographers vision and and
the dancers are there asvehicles for the choreographers
vision and that is one possible,you know kind of way of
choreographing.
It's a little bit of an oldfashioned and out of date
perception.
Understandably it existsbecause that being in the world
(08:27):
for centuries that way.
But at the same time, we allknow in the contemporary dance
world and just in contemporarysociety, that there's a lot more
give and take, a lot morecontribution and even devising,
as we call it, happening in aroom, regardless of whether it's
dance or any other situation,any social situation.
There's a lot of give and take.
There's a lot of ideas thatcome up because of the people in
(08:50):
the room, because of howdifferent people respond to The
situation itself and the context, and that, for me, is a big
influence on how things evolveand how things emerge.
And so, as a choreographer, ireally wanted to just Embrace
that in my research and explorehow we create and how we, how a
(09:13):
concept might even emerge in agroup situation, how a piece
might evolve not just from oneperson's perspective and vision,
but from Everybody in the roomand from the combinations that
are in the room, still with thechoreographer contributing as a
choreographer.
And so that's where it gets alittle intricate and nuanced and
and subtle.
Because if you believe that achoreographer is the one telling
(09:35):
people what to do, then in myshared practice model there's a
point at which you go okay, well, that's fine, but then at some
point somebody has to leave andso the choreographer is going to
tell dancers what to do.
It's all nice to say that'swhat the process is, but at a
certain point the choreographeris going to have to be the boss
and going to have to demandcertain things and is going to
(09:55):
keep an eye on quality control.
You know those kinds of thingsand concepts, containment and
all of those.
I don't think that's necessarilythe way It has been happening
actually in the 21st centuryparticularly, and late 20th
century, and I also don't thinkit has to happen that way, and
so my research has been aroundthat.
(10:15):
So I brought in socialcognition, philosophy around
assemblage, mainly using Dullesand Gattari, who are very high
level aesthetic thinkers, triedto underpin all of my research
with those kinds of things in anacademic context, but in a in a
practical context, which issome of the elements that I've
also used in my process.
It really just is about whatare our conversations, what do
(10:38):
we discuss, what are our ownpreconceptions and assumptions?
when we walk into a studio fordancers and for choreographers
and really honestly, what can wemake together?
Like, how do we allow for eachperson's take on what's
happening in the room not onlyto influence what we're doing
but also change, as the more Ispeak, the more complex it gets,
(10:59):
the more less there are.
But that's also what I'm tryingto prove.
You know, in a sense, if I'mtrying to prove anything, it's
just that things happen.
When they happen, we staycreative, we stay positive, we
stay rigorous, we stay trying towork things out.
At a certain point We all callit and say this is what the work
is and within that, the stillflexibility and adaptability and
(11:19):
room for each person to bothgrow And to decide how they want
to practice and to bring intheir own relationship to their
practice into that process.
So it's very complex, but Ithink I'm just talking about
life is essentially.
I think I'm just talking aboutthat and maybe a creative life
from a privileged position thatway.
But but at the same time I'vehad conversations with
(11:41):
indigenous artists recently whoin Vancouver, like indigenous
lands muskwim, squamish and slaywith two peoples It's become
extremely important, significantand vital to kind of think
about ways in which we are thesame and ways in which we can
respect each other in process.
I am essentially talking abouta way of working which is quite
(12:05):
close to that way, but not thesame way.
It's not this, not the sameprocess.
So I've had some wonderfulconversations around.
This kind of openness in aprocess allows for people to
contribute fully.
That also brings up conflictand then how does one deal with
conflict, and so there's someinteresting processes there, but
it's to kind of try to explorethat conflict is going to be
(12:26):
there.
This isn't an openness or anequal practice, egalitarian
practice.
In that way.
It's more about embracing ourhumaneness, and that's difficult
.
That's difficult because we putthese go into situations
needing boundaries or needingbarriers, needing containment.
It's not necessarily aboutletting go of all of those, but
(12:46):
it is about awareness or selfawareness.
Daniela (12:48):
Well, you seem to be talking about, not only in the
dance world but in general,teamwork people collaborating
more than taking directions fromone person.
But what I want to know, claire, is you said that you've been
dancing for three decades now.
When did it happen to follow upand go back to your kind of
develop a story?
When did they happen that youbelieve, or you started to
(13:11):
believe, that this was the way,because before you obviously had
people that the choreographerswould tell you what to do?
Claire French (13:18):
Yeah, and I was a choreographer who told people
what to do as well.
I think what happened was thatthe work that was coming out of
that, i think I had arealization that part of the way
in which process was unfoldingwas creating a certain kind of
work, and so in process, therewere certain things in a process
(13:39):
that were being filtered outbecause of this need to feel or
obligation to decide on behalfof a group or on behalf of the
dancer and me, how a pieceshould develop, which meant that
things were filtered out, whichmeant that some of the essence
of what was being created andwhat some of the really creative
(14:01):
stuff was being ignored.
So there'd be a moment, say,the dancers are on stage, a
dancer is on stage, i'm not, i'mwatching.
I was a dancer dancer for along time in works.
At this point I'd already madethe step to move out of being on
the stage myself, so I'dalready become a kind of
overseer of a project and theoutside eye.
(14:21):
And then watching the dance onstage and being like, oh, where
did that thing idea go that wehad, and flashbacks to in the
studio when it would be like, oh, i remember a time when this
was really felt much moredeveloped than I'm seeing on
stage right now, and I hadobviously in the process,
decided to go in a particulardirection.
While I was watching it onstage I got this, as many
(14:43):
choreographers talk about thisrealization that there were
other things happening in theprocess.
That would have been a betterchoice.
There would have been a betterchoice for the work And, knowing
that you'd explored that in thestudio already, you have that
information in your body thatyou went a different direction.
I would say that this is forchoreographers either just
starting out or formalchoreographers who put things on
(15:05):
stage to who designed the workfor the stage.
So make decisions almost likethis will happen over here and
then they'll move over here andthis will happen over here.
And so you start to put on alayer of external design onto
the work, whereas in the processthere can be a lot more kind of
organic development and thatcan feel a little bit more of a
(15:26):
vulnerable place for the dancerand for the choreographer.
And so you make quick decisionsand put it here and put it here
and compartmentalize andbecause you're thinking about
the overall piece, but in theprocess of that sometimes you
can miss the essence of the work, and so what I realized?
I got to a point where I wasconfident that I was putting
work on the stage that I wasproud of, that I felt like was
(15:46):
thorough and rigorous, and thenI noticed that there was another
way to do it.
I became obsessed with thisother way to do it And I
realized, in order to do thisother way, i had to change how I
choreographed, and so thatbecame why I went into this.
Research Also came from I'd beenmentoring a lot of
choreographers and dancers for awhile and I realized I needed
(16:08):
to put myself through that sameprocess that I designed for
other choreographers and dancersfor a while, just to kind of
take care of this change that Iwanted to make in my work And of
course, that's something to dowith aging.
I suddenly realized that thework on stage wasn't necessarily
representing me now.
It was representing maybeperhaps a younger version of me
as an artist, and I know it'svery insular.
(16:30):
I like I'm talking very muchinside my world, but it really
is about that.
Like this story is about that,the meme wanting to change the
work I made.
I realized I had to change myprocess in order to change the
work I was making.
Daniela (16:42):
And do you remember when you were a dancer that you
just followed the lead of thechoreographer and now you are
going to change it to?
I want your opinion as a dancer.
How would you have felt whenyou were a dancer?
Claire French (16:56):
So this takes me all the way back to when I
started dancing at the age ofthree, and now I'm 50.
So I've actually danced myentire life Like I'm still
dancing, danced yesterday,danced this morning, like I'm
still dancing all the time.
You've hit a really good partof the story, i think, or kernel
of a story, daniela, because Iwould honestly say that from
(17:17):
three up and all the way throughme dancing all the way up to
2012, really as a performer inother people's works, there has
always been this thread of beingobedient to a certain degree,
being an interpreter, whichmeans I have to bring myself my
imaginative self, my technicalself, my social self, all of
(17:37):
these things as a dancer into asituation.
And then there's a point atwhich perhaps my interpretation
sometimes, for some people,tipped too far into my own
vision, tipped too far into mystory as a dancer, which
impinges sometimes onto achoreographer's or onto the
aesthetic of a work, so thatit's not necessarily getting in
(17:58):
the way of a choreographer'svision, but it might be just
kind of pushing the aesthetic alittle bit in my direction, into
the dancer's direction.
And so I realized there was apoint at which I was becoming
just as interested in being thecreative person who could tell
the story and unfold the storyrather than just interpret
somebody else's perspective on astory or on a theme.
(18:21):
And at that point I realizedthat I was perhaps going to be a
little bit held back by being adancer, because you wouldn't
follow the lead.
Yeah, because I couldn't allowfor my daydreaming as a dancer
to take over in my performance.
I always had to make sure that Iwas reeling that in a little
bit and that it was always andnot to sound like a diva, i've
(18:42):
never really.
I mean, i have my moments, as weall do, but I've never really
been a diva dancer.
I think, if I take it out ofthat dancer-choreographer
relationship which is hard forme to do, but in this instance I
think what I can say issometimes the inspiration from
dancing just enough for me towant to go off and tell my own
story, to feel like I was in agroup and if I didn't know what
(19:03):
a choreographer was asking for,but dancing was making me feel
something, but that wasn't rightfor the choreographer and they
couldn't explain to me why itwasn't right.
That would be frustrating for mebecause it would get in the way
of me being able to express notjust myself but to work with
dance, to engage with dance, andI didn't like repeating things
a lot.
I like improvising more anddevising more and I felt like
(19:27):
sometimes if you're repeating aphrase over and over and over in
a rehearsal, it can feel like atechnique class and I just
wasn't interested in spending mytime doing that.
I'm not undermining or, likeyou know, wanting to disrespect
people who do rehearse somethinga lot, because i think there's
a real I'm finesse in that, butfor me as a dancer it wasn't
(19:50):
something i was interested inwhat you were dancing since you
were three, so you already hadthe skills.
Daniela (19:54):
If i have to start learning now, i probably need to
repeat many time.
Claire French (19:59):
Yeah, but i think in a dance process,
sometimes in a choreography, youcan spend a lot of time in
rehearsal just going over andover and over and eight count,
sixteen count, thirty two count,phrase.
I don't create that kind ofwork.
I know a lot of choreographerswho don't count.
You know a lot of pieces arenot created through counting.
That's a particular style and aparticular process.
It doesn't get to theperformance of the work.
(20:21):
It keeps you in a technicallandscape, it keeps you in the
Mechanism, it keeps you in thefunction.
It doesn't get to concept, itdoesn't get to interpretation,
it doesn't get to the actingpart.
You know other performing partsand i think for me i have.
My choreography is also aboutthe stage context and is about
training in performance, whichisn't repetition, it's about
feeling.
Daniela (20:41):
How old were you when you realize, okay, i don't, i
really want to be creative aswell as a dancer.
Claire French (20:47):
I find this really fascinating, cuz i also
think dancer's extremelycreative.
I think you have to beextremely creative, is it as a
dancer and i think this is oneof the things in my research
that i'm also trying to say Isthat, as a dancer, dances are
giving their creative skills andtechnical skills in every
single process, every singletime.
I don't think you can dancewithout being creative.
(21:08):
However, to come to your pointabout the separation between
being an interpreter, i suppose,and creating the kind of
context of the story and allthose things for a dancer to
dance inside of with, i think irealize that i dance from that
place of, in a way, story orcreating something that i want
to follow.
I feel like it's how thedancing Exists with other
(21:32):
disciplines, so it, how is thedance supported by the music and
also supporting music, how doesthe scene and the stage and the
lighting and all of thosecomponents Feed into the same
idea or offer something new tothe idea that the dance is
trying to do?
i mean, i'm reallyinterdisciplinary in my thinking
and i think, as a dancer, ifound that that wasn't.
(21:54):
Nobody wanted my opinion onthose things.
i was never asked.
I think it was something aboutwanting to be involved in the
big picture more.
Not be a part of the bigpicture, one of the colors of a
piece in an abstract painting,but actually be.
Take care of the frame as well.
Daniela (22:10):
You can't take care of the frame if you're a dancer you
were following the lead and youwere very obedient, as you said
, for Many years, and tell when,what age, that you decided well
, i went to university to do mydance degree and at eighteen and
before that i didn't even knowthere was a dance degree, i
didn't even know it was possibleto do that.
Claire French (22:30):
I came upon that serendipitously When exploring
like journalism, english degreesor drama degrees, and then when
i was in university still verymuch in that land of dancer even
an improviser at that point andcharacter dances and i did all
sorts of styles, so not justcontemporary.
I was, i've been a disco dancer, ballroom dancer in a tap
dancer, in song and dance girland i was in musical theater and
(22:53):
i did everything coming up tocontemporary dance.
I realized in the contemporarydance world there was room for
my interdisciplinary ideas, alittle bit more poetic, a little
bit more avant garde, maybe alittle bit more off the car for
abstract.
But even at university i saidi'll be a dancer, i'll be a
teacher, i'll be a dance writer,i'll be all these things, but i
won't choreograph, because ithink i found it so hard, i
(23:14):
think it took everything out ofme, but of course that's
essentially the path i had totake yes, so do you meet a lot
of dancers that were in asimilar point of view as you?
Daniela (23:23):
i feel like it's perhaps a matter of personality
some people like to just Followand dance and some other people
want to be more independent.
Claire French (23:32):
Yeah, i think personality to a certain degree,
yes, but i think there's also apoint of which your
relationship with dance can bebest realized or actualized in
the world.
And i do agree.
I think there are some very shychoreographers, though
introverted choreographers aswell who have such Beautiful
stories to tell, and maybe theywork with more gregarious dances
(23:53):
who are able to bring somethingout in a much more magnified
way than the choreographer couldthemselves performing, and so
there is a really importantrelationship there and which i
feel like you know they kind ofis like the in yang.
They belong together in orderfor you to receive the whole
picture, and who Who is doingwhat is is much more kind of
(24:13):
complex.
But i also think i think itdepends on your relationship
with with dance and with artmaking And then your
relationship with performanceand your relationship with the
world, like how you want to be acreative in the world, how you
want to live.
I think that's a lot to do withit.
I think it's a lifestyle choiceas well as it's a Personality
(24:34):
choice, if that makes sense, isee clear.
Daniela (24:36):
You went to university and you want to be a teacher
dancer.
And then what happened?
how did you switch?
Ain't a little bit like?
Claire French (24:44):
you asking me to be to do this podcast.
I was asked by an opera companyin leeds, which was a where i
did my undergraduate degree, ifi would choreograph the opera
and i was just like i was in itas a dancer as well, but i did
choreographic.
So they wanted me tochoreograph Numbers, like some
of the dance numbers inside theopera, but also work with
(25:05):
principal actors and operasingers on gestures and movement
and posture.
How that came about, i think,was Through somebody somebody's
mom, like a dancer i was workingwith and her mom had asked
because her daughter was in oneof my pieces.
It was a very people Networking, kind of like personal way
(25:26):
built and i had such a good time, we had such a wonderful time.
They loved what i did and theyinvited me back the next year
and it just became Like i saidabout the interdisciplinary
context.
It showed me thatchoreographers have a role,
dances have a role in thisbigger theatrical place, but
also taught me how i could bringthat back into just a dance
(25:47):
work.
I said just meaning no other,you know back to the formal
dance creation.
So it was really a two waything.
It was like i was asked to comein and do it.
I said yes immediately.
I was fearless back then.
I mean, i still am to a certaindegree, but it's changed over
the years.
Yeah, i just, i just reallywanted it, but always find
myself in these positions andafterwards i would be a bit like
(26:07):
i'm never doing that again orthat's too much, and oh my gosh,
what was i thinking?
But then it just picked up andit became something i realized i
knew how i knew how to do.
But that also connects to laterin my life when i decided i
knew how to do it in a certainway.
But now there is somethingdeeper that i wanted to explore.
(26:27):
So that comes back to me makinga change in my practice later
in life, if that makes sense,which led to the phd.
Daniela (26:34):
But i feel like you, even that you were a
choreographer, with the oldfashioned way of thinking you
still wear democratic.
Claire French (26:40):
Perhaps when somebody came with an idea, you,
instead of rejecting it, werealso more open than other people
, yeah, but i've also been insituations where i've told
somebody they need to be quietbecause i've said this and i
don't like the word regret, buti do.
I do regret saying it.
But also some of the things isaid help me realize that's not
who i want to be And that's notwho i want to be in the room.
(27:02):
So some of the things i havesaid in the past is we don't
have time for your opinion, ithink in a nice way, but never
is never nice to hear that rightfor anybody.
In any, however much i try totake care of my words, i'm still
saying something To somebodywhich is no, and quickly, so
indis and decisively.
So that's a shock to anybodysystem, understandably.
(27:22):
But i would say i haven't gottime for your opinion and my
opinion counts cuz i'm the onepaying you.
That is not cool with meanymore And it wasn't at the
time, but at the same time itwas understood by everybody in
the room.
It was cutting but it wasn'toffensive, although it should
(27:44):
have been.
Like you know, it wasunderstood and I'm not okay with
it being understood.
We don't need to talk to eachother like that in the art world
, but it happens far too often.
And then another time which Idon't think was my fault I was
really, really upset withsomebody who didn't bring a
costume for a photo shoot, eventhough I had asked everybody to
(28:06):
make sure that they had.
They'd even told me what theywere bringing and this one
person didn't bring it.
And it wasn't just a photoshoot, it was also a videoing of
the piece with a professionalvideographer.
And I was so upset with thisperson for not bringing what
they said they would bringbecause they lied to me and said
that they didn't get the email,even though they'd responded to
the email, And so the truth ofthe matter was just all in my
(28:27):
cart but there's nothing I coulddo.
Thankfully, I've been aroundenough to know that you have a
contingency plan at all timesand I just so happen to have a
spare costume.
That could be costume, I say,but like outfit, that matching
kind of complimentary outfitsfor the video.
Don't like the word costumeanymore either, But there is
something I was able to.
(28:48):
She was able to be dressed andit worked.
That was hard for me, Like thatwas a difficult situation for
me.
It feels like sabotage whenthese things happen, but it's an
urgent situation, sometimes notlife or death, but in that
moment it's now or never thatcan get heated, And we're in a
creative space, And so there isan element of everything being
heightened, but I don't thinkthat's an excuse.
(29:10):
If things are heightened, youhave to pay more attention to
how you're speaking to eachother.
Daniela (29:14):
So how many years pass until you notice?
okay, I wanna change, It'sgotta be 20.
Claire French (29:20):
Okay, and partly that's down to, yeah, around
that, 18, 20 years maybe, and Ithink that partly that's because
I was busy.
I was busy choreographing andteaching and doing a lot of
administration, which I do nowand producing and
self-presenting, and also, andas the world itself and the
dance world was changing and Iwas doing everything all of
(29:41):
these components some dancers Iwas working with who were dance
makers as well, so some of themhad problems with me doing
everything.
They wanted somebody else tospeak to, not just me, about
costume or schedule or pay orthose things, and it was always
me that they had to speak to.
And I realized I was justgetting to a point where dancers
were needing different things.
They had different expectations.
(30:03):
The dance industry was changing.
Was I keeping up And could Iadapt?
Did I want to be part of thisworld?
And what was going on for methere, like a whole bunch of
things, made me evaluate andreevaluate how I wanted to be in
the world, how I wanted to becreative.
I mean.
Daniela (30:17):
It's opened up a whole bunch of other things for me now
as well, which is really great,that's beautiful, that you had
that introspection and realizingand willingness to question
that versus a lot of people arelike no, this is my way.
I've been doing it for 20 yearsand I know and I'm not changing
, you're changing.
So I feel like Bravo to you forhaving that attitude towards
(30:40):
change.
Claire French (30:41):
So I have to say I've also been informed very
much by being a rehearsaldirector for other
choreographers.
I think this is why alsoanother reason why I wanted to
share my story is because insidethis insular world of dance and
choreography, i've done so.
I've taken on so many roles Andit sounds like organized chaos
really.
I've been a rehearsal directorfor more established
(31:02):
choreographers than me.
I've witnessed them be thosepeople.
I've been doing this for years.
I know it's my way or thehighway, and you're like.
You see it differently.
I see it differently.
As a rehearsal director, myrelationship with the dancers
and with the choreographer isI'm the bridge.
In some circumstances it hasn'thad to be a bridge.
They're not at either ends ofthe bridge.
We're all on the bridge, in themiddle, together.
(31:23):
And then other times it'sliterally been.
I've had to communicate andfacilitate conversation between
a choreographer and dancersbecause the divide is just so
great.
There has to be something inthe middle to help.
It's just too.
The distance is just too greatfor them to hear each other, and
so I stand in the middle andholler back and forth between
them and bring them closertogether or organize it in such
(31:46):
a way that they can all be whothey are from either end of the
bridge And the audience canstill enjoy the energy and the
dynamics that come from that,because there is a sense of it.
It's not necessary foreverybody to change.
I think it's just necessary tohave a respect for others and to
have more space to hear otherpeople.
It doesn't mean you have tonecessarily change, although for
(32:09):
some people that is change.
Daniela (32:12):
Yes, this goes also in all the areas of your life.
I was in a meeting the otherday.
We were talking about a projectthat I was working really hard
on.
The other person had a comment.
I was getting really upset andit's because it was my baby,
This project, it was me.
It was something silly.
So I had to go to other peopleto try to see what is the point
of the other person, because Icouldn't see it And I feel that
(32:34):
that's sometimes what happens.
You close your mind becausethis was so close to me.
I was biased completely.
You do need that help.
Claire French (32:42):
Yeah, and to come back, to when you said I've
always seemed to give room forother people's opinions or it's
always mattered to me what otherpeople are thinking or how
they're feeling in a situation.
I think that's become a bonusfor me now Because I've always
been that way.
I haven't had to actuallychange.
I'm just communicatingdiplomatic or democratic place
(33:03):
that I stand in, Maybe becauseI've been a choreographer and a
dancer, Maybe because I feelthat they are different but they
offer different things toprojects.
Maybe I can do it that way.
But I've always been interestedin facilitation because I think
there's something so powerful ingiving space to different
opinions.
So powerful because thesituation is never one person's
perspective on it And in thedance world we've always given
(33:23):
that to the audience.
We've always accepted that anaudience is.
Every single member of anaudience can go away with a
different resonance or adifferent feeling.
So why would we deny that inthe process of the dancers
having a different feeling tothe work that the choreographer
is giving them?
And we don't.
But sometimes we don't give itas much room as we give to an
(33:44):
audience being able to take thework on, and maybe just because
it's closer or trust, And it'strust in ourselves to share
something in a studio, in thatvulnerable place.
By the time it gets to anaudience, we feel like we've
massaged it enough and takencare of it enough to give to an
audience something that they cantake away.
So there's something about thatspace.
Daniela (34:03):
And Claire.
So when you decided to change,you were probably choreographing
the same dancers as you werebefore.
Did you have some kind ofsurprising reactions?
People will be like, oh, what'swrong with Claire?
She's been more democratic.
Do you have any experienceslike that?
Yeah, kind of.
Claire French (34:22):
I'll just say two things.
One is that I think some peoplehave always seen me as more
democratic than a lot ofchoreographers they've worked
with, so I've always been more.
But then there's always beenthis point that I was talking
about before where it's likewhoa, suddenly Chloe will shift
into this gear of it's going tobe like this, it's going to be
(34:43):
this, it's going to be this andtriggered.
I used to be triggered at thatpoint of triggering, or the
tipping point as I refer to itand other choreographers refer
to it, but I talk about it in mythesis.
Now I'm trying to pay attentionto that tipping point moment
where expectations from thedancers are that the
choreographer will do, willbehave a certain way As we
(35:04):
approach that tipping point in aprocess.
I'm trying to manageexpectations of dancers that I'm
not going to do that that Iused to do.
I'm going to keep it open.
And so what does that mean?
That means it's a longerprocess.
I have to say It does mean thatit does make the process longer
because decisions are madeslower.
However, it also means thatprocess doesn't quite mean the
(35:24):
same thing.
So, at any point, you couldinvite an audience in.
Once you've got stuff happening.
An audience can come into aprocess.
It doesn't have to feel likeit's a product that is finished,
tight, ready to tour.
Bang.
Here it goes.
This is the piece that's goingto tour.
It's the same, much more opento.
Even though we have a processand a piece, it's still going to
evolve, even in front of anaudience.
(35:45):
Different audiences will getdifferent experiences, not just
from them, but because the workis different.
That's a big change.
I'm also at a time right nowwhere I'm still I'm actually a
little bit afraid of going backinto the studio to do a group
piece, in case I fall back intomy old ways.
Daniela (36:02):
Claire, being a choreographer, in a way, is you
are creating something.
What the mindset that you haveto adapt or change is that okay,
this is not just my creation,it's everyone's creation And you
are not taking all the credit.
It's everyone's credit, So it'sa teamwork really.
Claire French (36:21):
Two things.
William Forsythe talks aboutchoreography and dancing being
two different disciplines.
He also mentions thatchoreography doesn't need
dancers.
Choreographing is an organizingmovement in space and time
leading to an event.
That could be one very generaldefinition of choreographing
which doesn't mention the bodiesof dancers.
Necessarily, Movement doesn'thave to be just associated with
(36:44):
dancers and dancing, But ofcourse that's how we know it and
that is how I'm a choreographerof dances.
As soon as you open the door toit being movement as opposed to
dance, that implies dancetechnique and all of these
things you can already imaginethat if you're organizing
movement, it could be movementof objects, it could be movement
of kind of people thatchoreographers have done work
(37:06):
with sheets blowing in a wind,with a fan on it, just a washing
line and a sheet hanging andthe audience watches the sheet
blow on stage.
So these are still organizingmovement, our experience of
movement.
I think I might have gone off alittle bit from what you were
talking about, but I think thereis an element that over my
(37:26):
career I've also done a lot ofimagining choreography,
Imagining what it is, imaginingwhat it would look like.
I dream of choreographiessometimes which obviously the
dancer isn't there, but becauseI've worked with so many dancers
, That's interesting.
But then sometimes it doesn'tbecome a work, a dance work,
Sometimes it becomes a poem orit becomes just a diary entry.
(37:49):
I put that sense that I had,that experience I had, which is
also drawing attention to my ownbody, into my administrative
work.
You know, sometimes I use thatas the focus for the day, right,
And I have that access.
I think it's really importantto talk.
There's access that being adancer on my life has allowed me
(38:11):
to have, Like it's almost likea different level of
consciousness, I think.
Daniela (38:14):
Yes, how fascinating, fascinating.
And when you talk to otherpeople at your same level as you
, are they the same as creative.
They dream about this like youdo.
Claire French (38:25):
Yeah, but I think it comes out in different
modes.
I mean, one of the questionsyou asked me was if earlier, the
second point I was going tomake after talking about the
studio is is just how, and Ithink this answers this question
as well.
So it's a nice segue.
When I've talked to dancers andchoreographers about my
research, they just say yes, yes, yes, yes.
Like it's not written about inan academic context, but we all
(38:47):
know this And we know it.
There's a title of knowing in mybones of a dance maker has
written a book called Knowing inMy Bones And it's an old book
from, i believe, from the 50s,60s, but it's a very we know in
our bones.
I mean, we have these kinds ofconversations.
It's just helpful because it'shard to put this stuff into
words.
So we do it through thesemetaphors that still involve the
(39:11):
body, that help us kind of talkabout the somatic or inner
world that we all have, and ofcourse, our inner world are all
different, but we also share aknowledge base that allows us to
kind of understand what theother person's saying, even
though it's gobbledygook to most.
Daniela (39:27):
So yeah, And you decided to do a master's, or you
already had a master's and thisis a PhD.
Claire French (39:35):
Yeah.
So I did a PhD this time, butthe master's does lead me back
to my story.
Another point of change is whenI moved to Vancouver.
So I moved to Vancouver in the90s 1997.
I think we both moved here onthe same time.
I seem to have.
Yes, but I moved to do mymaster's degree.
I moved from England, fromLondon, england, to to Vancouver
(39:57):
to do my MFA ininterdisciplinary studies.
Now perhaps you can start tounderstand why I called this
begin anywhere.
Because I mean, my life is soiterative, and as all of our
lives are.
But you know I don't havechildren to talk about, i don't
even have pets.
You know I try to keep plantsalive.
I'm trying, but you know Idon't, i don't have those things
(40:17):
as milestones in my life.
My career and my travel and myart making are the milestones in
my life, like.
So that's kind of it's not myfull identity anymore, but it
was for a long time.
So moved to Vancouver in 1997 todo my MFA in interdisciplinary
studies at Simon FraserUniversity.
Now there is a campus downtownin downtown Vancouver, but at
(40:39):
that time we were up on the hillin the Shacks at the end of the
end of the lane, just be wherethe bus loop is.
We were up there hidden away,yes, and I met some amazing
people there, including mypartner.
I left my whole family back inEngland, a sister and brother
and a large extended family.
So many stories there too.
A lot of change happens weekly,daily in my family, in my
(41:02):
extended family, for sure.
Yeah So, but I'm here with mypartner mainly, and we have I
feel like it's a very artisticlife We lead in Vancouver.
I know not everybody seesVancouver that way, but for us
it is genuinely who we are, whywe are and how we are here in
Vancouver, and I feel quiteprivileged to be experiencing
Vancouver in that way.
(41:22):
The masters in interdisciplinarystudies I mainly did a little
bit of visual art studies and alittle bit of creative writing
and dance, but I had technologyin my show and music in my show,
and it was all original And thetechnology is a whole other
story.
There's a whole path and what Iwas trying to do with
technology back then that youcouldn't do at the time but you
(41:43):
can easily do now.
So that's a.
That was.
That was crazy, but that wasfun.
That was like me turning.
You know, it was like analogue,digital really, because I had,
there were so many processes forme to get a life forms figure
projected onto the stage todance with me in 1999.
Now that just seems likesomething you know, it's more
likely for me to be in the worldof that figure, you know,
(42:05):
rather than the other way around.
But that was a.
That was a thing.
Yeah, so I was looking atdigital technology and live
performance back then.
Well, i think I walked awayfrom all of that at the same
time.
I don't think I ever have,because it's always been
necessary for my work to haveboth the analogue and the
digital and some capacity.
And it's about creating worlds,what I've heard the term
(42:26):
worldizing, and I've heard theterm worlding quite often for
how people build and createthings, and that's in the design
world as well as in the artworld and in the academic world.
But I think it's a really goodterm because you're kind of
creating a world.
Daniela (42:39):
So you did the masters, you stay in Vancouver and
you've been performing andworking here, and then you
decided to do the PhD after manyyears, yeah.
Claire French (42:50):
I'd always thought that I would do one.
I was the first person in myfamily, my immediate family to
go to university to get anundergraduate degree.
But I've always felt that Iwanted to and a lot of my
friends were doing it.
I couldn't decide what my topicwould be.
I couldn't quite decide, and ittook me six and a half seven
years to finish.
But then I found my trackthrough working through my, the
(43:11):
mentor program that I wasrunning, i realized that was
what I wanted to put myselfthrough And I found this really
interesting area of researchthat only belonged in a
university, to be honest, inthat university context.
Pulling it back into theprofessional world is now my
objective, my motivation.
But at the time I needed, ineeded the academic world.
I needed the institution tohelp me realize parts of this.
(43:35):
Then, while I was in that world, i needed the professional
world and the practice to helpinform me as to how I was going
about doing it.
And now I need to free myselffrom the academic world for a
while, because it was prettyintense and I need to walk away.
What is the PhD?
So I have a PhD in.
I mean, it's a Doctor ofPhilosophy and my title is
Choreographic SensemakingDeveloping a Shared Practice
(43:57):
Framework.
Choreographic Sensemaking isthe term I came up with to help
define what I am, what I'vefocused on, just the idea being
that it's not making sense ofthe choreography.
It's actually using sensemakingas a process, as a
choreographic process to help agroup and to help all of the
(44:18):
collaborators and everybodywho's in the work choreograph
something together.
So it is choreographed, it isco-authored, it is about
something evolving and it'sabout finding a way to filter
and, in the process of refininga work and refining perspective
and refining your own practice,it can remain open, but it's not
(44:41):
just a free-for-all.
So the sensemaking is like isabout everybody feeding into
making sense of the process andthe choreography comes from that
.
Daniela (44:52):
You graduated, You got your PhD Just when I saw you
because I think it was Octoberthat you were going to England
to do that, to get it.
Claire French (45:00):
Yes, i graduated in October and I now have it on
my wall in a frame, and sowhat's next for you?
Well, i'm workingadministratively for the
Flamenco Rosario and theFlamenco Festival.
I'm also helping develop a newfacility in Vancouver.
I'm also creating new work withthe company Restless
Productions that I'm co-artisticdirector for, alongside my
(45:24):
partner, composer James Maxwell,done a research and creation
phase of an interdisciplinarywork which is more like an
installation that an audience orinvited guests can move around
in.
I've gone back into the studiofor myself to perform again
because in that roundaboutcyclical way, i feel like
there's more information now inthis body as I've approached 50
(45:47):
and I teach and things, butthere's something new in my body
that I want to explore, perhapsto perform, but at least to
investigate.
So I can't miss that.
So I'm back to that.
A bunch of other things.
I'm actually the host of theDance Center podcast as well And
they choose the guests and Iinterview the guests on behalf
(46:08):
of the Dance Center And I teachseniors every Monday in the
power of dance seniors or activeaging class.
I also teach line dancing atthe Holiday Inn.
Yeah, you are busy.
You're busy.
I know.
I told you organized chaos, mancrazy, crazy life.
Daniela (46:23):
So we will have to put everything on the show notes so
that people can follow you inone way or another, because we
have to see a show, we have tosee you dancing, we can go and
dance with you.
All kind of stuff.
Claire French (46:34):
Yeah, please come and dance with me when
that's my favorite, If I can getthe world to dance.
my goal in life is to get theworld to dance.
If I saw everybody walking downthe street doing some kind of
dance, that would be the world Iwant to live in.
Daniela (46:49):
Yes, I think everybody will be happier, because moving
dancing is just a beautifulthing.
Yeah, it doesn't have to be forlong.
Claire French (46:55):
Just a little skip here and there, a little
hip, push your hip out once in awhile, walk a little
differently, get a little bouncein your step and feel it.
I just think that it makes allthe difference in the world.
I really do believe thatWonderful.
Daniela (47:08):
Thank you so much, Claire, for sharing your story
and explaining to us and to mebecause I really don't know
anything about your world, buthow fascinating it is The world
of dancing, choreography and allyour ways of thinking and how
things are changing.
I'm glad that you arepro-changed and pro-elevating
the way things are.
Thank you.
Claire French (47:27):
I'm obviously not the only one, but I really
do appreciate you being willingto put this on as a story.
Honestly, this is a life and Iknow everybody's life is a story
.
I was a little nervous becausethis might not be a story to
some people, but it really is tome and I think you gave me
space to be able to share that.
I hope other people feel theway they are in the world is
(47:49):
enough of a story, because itdoes help other people go.
Oh well, actually, if that's astory, then mine's a story or
this is what I value in life.
This person values this andthis is what I value in life.
I think that's a beautifulthing you're doing here with
this podcast.
Thank you, thank you.
Daniela (48:05):
I think it's great that people could listen to your
story and learn things that theywouldn't otherwise, because
we're not in your world and wemay never be.
But hearing your perspective, Ithink that next time somebody
goes to a show, they will bemore appreciative.
Claire French (48:17):
That's great.
I'm not speaking on behalf ofall dancers and choreographers
and I think everybody knows thatif you are at all interested,
then just Googlingchoreographers or just finding
out, even on YouTube, interviewswith choreographers and getting
the wide, wide perspectivebecause it is a wide, wide, wide
world.
It doesn't mean that we just doone thing or have one view or
(48:38):
see the world in a particularway.
We really do bring our wholeselves to our profession.
If you are at all triggered bythis to find out more, then I
suggest you kind of go and hearthe contradictions that other
choreographers will say to me.
Daniela (48:53):
Thanks, daniela.
Thank you.
Thank you, claire.
I hope you enjoyed today'sepisode.
I am Daniela and you werelistening to, because Everyone
Has a Story.
Please take five seconds rightnow and think of somebody in
your life that may enjoy whatyou just heard, or someone that
has a story to be shared andpreserved.
(49:14):
When you think of that person,shoot them a text with the link
of this podcast.
This would allow the ordinarymagic to go further.
Join me next time for anotherstory conversation.
Thank you for listening.
See you soon.
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