Osnat is a Product Coach, Author of the bestselling book "Starting From Scratch - Manage Change Like Your Career Depends On It," and Speaker.
Imagine leaving everything you know behind to start a new life in another country with another culture, only to be warned that the job you're moving for may not be there after all. That's precisely what happened to Osnat, our guest on today's episode, who bravely decided to relocate from Israel to the US, despite looming uncertainty. Listen as she shares the gripping journey of courage, resilience, and "Starting from Scratch."
After her worst fears materialized and his position was eliminated, Osnat didn't crumble. Instead, she used this setback to fuel his determination, presenting a compelling case to her boss with research and data to back her claims. Not only did this move to get her rehired, but it also paved the way for another career reinvention. Osnat's story is a testament to the power of well-honed networking skills, understanding people's motivations, and preparing for oneself in the workplace.
During our conversation, Osnat shares insights from her book “STARTING FROM SCRATCH.” A toolkit packed with everything you need to make change work for you. You'll learn how to grow your knowledge, build your resilience, connect with the right kind of support, recognize when change is coming, design your role model, step into her shoes, and manage your mental health along the way. Osnat emphasizes the importance of honest conversations with your manager and the value of mentorship. Her experience of wearing multiple hats - as a consultant, writer, author, mom, speaker, and course developer - speaks volumes about her incredible resilience and relentless pursuit of growth. So, prepare to be inspired and enlightened by Osnat's journey, packed with invaluable lessons for personal development and career reinvention.
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https://www.startingfromscratchthebook.com/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Daniela (00:00):
Hi, i'm Daniela.
Welcome to my podcast, becauseeveryone has a story, the place
to give ordinary people, stories, the chance to be shared and
preserved.
Our stories become the languageof connections.
(00:22):
Let's enjoy it, connect andrelate, because everyone has a
story.
Welcome to episode number 99.
My guest, Osnat Benari.
Osna is a product coach, authorof the best-selling book
Starting from Scratch andspeaker, among so many other
(00:44):
things that she actually hastalents for.
Imagine leaving everything youknow behind to start a new life
in another country with anotherculture, only to be warm a few
days before you're leaving thatthe job you're moving for may
not be there after all.
That's precisely what happenedto Osna On our first pre-chat.
I was so engaged with herconversation and the book that
(01:08):
she wrote that I have to get itimmediately.
Osnat is sharing insights fromher book Starting from scratch.
It is a toolkit packed witheverything you need to make
change work for you.
You will learn how to grow yourknowledge, build your
resilience, connect with theright kind of support, recognize
when change is coming andmanage your mental health along
(01:30):
the way.
She's not only a beautifulperson, she's a very smart woman
and has invaluable lessons forpersonal development and career
reinvention.
Lex and your story.
Welcome, osna.
I'm very excited that you'rehere today, and I'm very happy
that I met you as well, sowelcome.
Osnat (01:48):
Thank you.
I'm excited as well becausewe've spoken so much and I feel
like we became friends, so I'mhappy we're doing this And
you're in New York and I'mVancouver.
Daniela (01:58):
So the other extremes.
Osnat (02:00):
Yeah.
Daniela (02:01):
Osnat, why do you want to share a story with us?
Osnat (02:04):
I started writing the book, i think for my own healing
.
I went through so many changesin the workplace that affected
me in my career.
Every single time I needed tostart from scratch.
I needed to recover, i neededto reinvent myself and it takes
so much Even after you do that,it still takes a toll So I felt
(02:27):
like I needed a reset, i neededto clean this up.
So I probably started formyself, but then when I decided
to open the door and kind ofshare it with the world, i felt
that it has a bigger mission,which is to recover more people
and to recover more work places,because eventually that's where
(02:48):
we spend so much of our timethat I needed to be good.
I needed to be a good place.
I wanted to be a place where Ienjoy coming to when, where I
feel that I can grow, and wheremy peers are healthy and happy
as well.
Daniela (03:05):
Yes, and when we spoke the first time, i was very
curious about your book, soimmediately I got it and it's
called Starting from Scratch Andit has a lot of wonderful
information that I'm sure you'regoing to share it with us.
My next question is when doesyour story start?
Osnat (03:22):
Yeah, my chapter starts about nine years ago.
Eight nine years ago I moved tothe States.
I moved for a job And then Ireceived a call from my ex boss
saying that actually he'sleaving and I shouldn't come to
the United States, I shouldn'tactually go forward with the
(03:42):
relocation offer that they gaveme.
And he said that because heknew something that I was
probably blocking or notadmitting that that would put me
in risk of the reorg that wouldcome after his departure, would
put me at a risk, put me in aplace where, okay, i moved, my
family, i moved and started in anew country and now I need to
(04:05):
go back.
So my story starts there, inthat kind of conversation that
we're having and me deciding togo ahead and then me going
through that restructure,putting me at risk what I needed
to do in order to reinventmyself and not lose that job.
Daniela (04:22):
Wonderful You were living in Israel.
Yes.
Osnat (04:25):
I was living in Israel, moved to the States for a job,
thinking that I would basicallycome to do a similar job to what
I did originally in Israel.
It was a little bit bigger andI received responsibility for
another team.
But I knew the team, i knew theproduct, i knew my job.
There was some stability,despite the fact that I'm
(04:46):
starting in a new country thatallowed me to have the
confidence to come and do thiswork here.
But then you know when a reorgcomes your way and that shuffles
all the cards and all theconfidence that I had that
everything is okay and I knoweverything and I know where this
is going, changed all of asudden.
Daniela (05:08):
Yes, i can imagine Going back.
So you boss was leaving and hesaid don't take the job, don't
go to the States.
But you decided that you weregoing to do it anyway.
Osnat (05:18):
It was a little bit too late to say that, to make that
decision, because I alreadyrented my home.
I already had like, literallywhen he was calling, i had
tenants come in and to take thekeys It was very late in the
game.
it would have been devastatingto cancel it either way.
(05:39):
but definitely to pack and moveand rent the apartment here in
New York and then pack again andgo back would have been even
more painful.
He was trying to basically warnme that that's possible.
He probably knew better than methat there are people that were
having different plans for meor different plans for the group
(06:01):
And I decided that it's toolate, the opportunity is very
big.
And then I think that mentallywhen he called me, mentally
we're already gone.
So that's why it was very, veryhard to say, oh you know what,
okay, i'm not going to risk it.
And I will say that in otheropportunities, especially in
Israel, where I knew the network, i knew the industry, every
(06:25):
time it didn't work out, i wasable to reinvent myself and find
another job.
But to come to a new countrywith no network and without
really knowing the culture andeverybody around and also having
that fear of losing your workpermit, basically that added a
new level of stress that reallyrequired me to stretch whatever
(06:49):
I had in me and be able toreinvent myself.
so I don't lose that job, wow.
Daniela (06:55):
You came with your family.
Did you think you were going togo back?
or you think, well, if I losethis job, I am going to find
another job here.
Osnat (07:02):
I knew that if I lose the job, i will not have something
else instead.
The work permit came with aspecific workplace And I even
had in my contract that Iunderstand that that is a
possibility and that if thathappens, then I have a very
limited time to basically packmy things and leave.
That option was not really anoption.
(07:24):
My only option was to pullwhatever I had in me and
reinvent myself so that theydon't let me go.
I was actually invited to ameeting with then my boss's
replacement and he called me tohis office to fire me.
In that conversation I saw itcoming.
(07:45):
You already started.
There's certain things you say,a certain tone that you have
when it comes your way.
He already started and then Itold him that I need to stop him
and tell him that I understandwhere this conversation is going
, but I would love for him tounderstand what I can do for the
company.
(08:06):
I can tell you what I'm doingright now and I understand that
if this is what I'm doing, thenyou don't need me.
But here are my skills and hereare the things that I can do
for the company And this is whyyou should basically rehire me,
or why I'm still a good fit forthe company and for him
specifically for his plans, andhe liked it.
(08:26):
He liked the fact that one thatI challenged him, he was very
much of that leader There's noother word for that but a leader
that is not afraid of anemployee objecting or an
employee saying what they think,and he's actually very much
intrigued by what other peopleare saying, by other opinion, by
(08:47):
other ways of doing things.
So me challenging him andtelling him no, you're about to
make a mistake If you let me go,he actually appreciated it And
he became, not only then my newboss, but then later until today
, my very, very dear advisor.
Like every time I need toconsult about my career, he's
(09:08):
one of the first people I call.
And I'm saying one of the firstpeople because he's that person
that will give me the honesttruth back.
When sometimes I'm not asstrong mentally, then I need to
work on my mental part first andthen call him, because he will
tell me very straight what I'mdoing wrong, what I should be
(09:30):
doing, where am I failing, andyou need to be in the right
headspace in order to get thatfeedback.
I had that really honestconversation with him and he
appreciated it and chose me,chose me to stay and chose me
for a new job.
Daniela (09:46):
That sounds great.
Osnat, how do you prepare forthat conversation?
Were you thinking where you'rehaving a plan?
How did that happen?
Osnat (09:53):
Absolutely.
I was very much prepared forthat conversation.
I was actually waiting for awhile.
I was actually surprised thatit's not happening much faster.
What I did is I learned who heis.
First, i looked up his resume.
I looked on his LinkedIn.
He was extremely senior, sothere was a press release when
(10:14):
he joined the company explainingwhat his vision is and why he
joined the company and why thecompany hired him.
I started connecting the dotsof okay, now I understand what
he's coming here to do.
I started assuming what hewould need on his team and it
(10:35):
wasn't what I was at the time.
He's a very creative person andhe came with the new agenda and
I'm a techie.
I came to take care of the tech.
A lot of the times people likehim take the tech side for
granted.
They would say, okay, i expectthis to work already.
(10:56):
Now let's focus on the creativeside.
I knew that if I would come andgive him all my spiel around
why I'm so great in leading thetech side, it would not resonate
with him.
It's a different story that heneeds to hear.
I did tell him that what hewould need on the tech side in
order for his creative plans tohappen and what we're missing on
(11:22):
the tech side, so that whatevercreative plans he has, they're
not possible on the current techthat we had.
Then it created one.
He understood that I can speakhis language, that I am open to
hearing and being led by someonethat isn't a techie like me.
(11:43):
And then the second thing thathe appreciated he appreciated
that i already came with anunderstanding of You know,
whatever your plans are, theywill not work because we're not
ready.
Like i explained to him whatyou know, our focus was in my
previous role and that's why wenever sold for what he's coming
with.
So then we created this trustin the room where he said, okay,
(12:07):
i need her cuz she knows me,she understands my plans and she
also understands what we wouldneed Going forward.
But i spent many, many days inorder to understand who he is,
what's his agenda, what he wouldcome to do.
I did make some assumption, buta lot of the information exists
and in my book i do mention it.
(12:27):
I know that when we're hired,we are in this mindset of you
know, let's just do our work anddo it best, but We do need to
leave a little bit of room toopen our ears and our eyes to
what's going around us, becauseannouncements such as his
joining the company Had so muchinformation and so many
(12:50):
opportunities for me and forother people as well in the
organization.
But we need to keep our headsup in order to listen.
We can't just come and do thework.
Yes, we need to do your workninety five percent of the time,
but leave that five percent tobe open to listening to the
organization, listening to themarket, listening to your
(13:13):
customers, so that you have thisbigger picture and you ready
when changes coming your way.
Daniela (13:21):
That's wonderful visa wisdom, thank you.
How do you learn to do this?
Osnat (13:26):
so in my book i do talk about having and learning
mindset to put yourself in thisplace where you're constantly
learning new things.
There's no magic in this.
No one's born like that.
The only way to really do it isto put it on our calendar, to
put an hour week where we freeourselves to read books, to read
(13:50):
blogs, to read newsletters, tojust be open to new things that
are happening around us.
So it is related to your work.
It is related to what you'respecialized in, but it is
something that is extra.
You sometimes can take away newopportunities from it.
(14:10):
You know, maybe newResponsibilities that you can
take over on your job, or maybeeven a promoted version of you
will take care of whateveryou're taking care of today,
plus other things that you'velearned.
Being open and speaking to Peersand speaking to people that do
your job in a different industryor your job in a different
(14:33):
company entails really learningand knowing new things And it's
a muscle.
So if you do it an hour everyweek and you do it for a while,
then you start putting aside alist of things, and i have a
list of things.
I do it on fridays.
These are the emails i want toread and make sure that i didn't
(14:54):
miss a piece of informationthat could be Valuable.
Or there's a newsletter thati'm subscribed to which has a
lot of information that i liketo know, but i don't have time
during the week, so what i do isi flag them and on fridays i go
and i look for that newsletterand i spend that time To read
that.
Have that list of you knoweither books or podcasts or
(15:17):
youtube videos or whatever it isand from time to time you can
also pepper it with you knowmeeting other people.
One of the things i like to askpeople when i meet them is what
do you recommend?
you know i read, or is there aplace that you go and you read
things in this industry that ican learn from as well?
And then i add it to my list,and i never finished that list.
(15:41):
It's an never ending list and ido change priorities, but it is
a habit that i have, andsomething that we need to all
have as part of our preparation,to never be really blindsided
by change and i think this goesalso for your regular life.
Daniela (15:59):
Yeah, maybe set up a time during the week just to
learn about anything like.
Even if you are like me, i wantto learn about.
Technology is something thatthere is out there.
So, yeah, that is a great idea.
Where you like this, since youwere younger, where you always
the person that find a strategyto convince somebody, tell you
how i can sell myself, i feellike you read my book, i thought
(16:23):
that the first time ireinvented myself was that.
Osnat (16:26):
Was that what i mentioned when i moved to the states and
i had to reinvent myself in thatroom to not get laid off?
but when i wrote the book, theni did more digging and more
research and looked into Whatare the kind of what's in my dna
that made me able to reinventmyself.
(16:47):
And then, you know, i all of asudden recalled i was working as
a teenager.
I was 14 years old.
I was working for a teenmagazine.
As a teen journalist, i waswriting stories about children
like me, about school.
I had A gossip column where thejournal was with.
The magazine was giving meaccess to local celebrities that
(17:09):
i could Interview and writetheir stories, doing it for
about a year.
And then, all of a sudden, themagazine had a restructure.
They brought a new editor inchief and he had different plans
for the magazine, and one ofhis plans was to let go of all
the teen journalists And make ita more professionally written
(17:29):
magazine by only adultjournalists.
So that was his plan.
He let me and my team go.
We were about 20 of us that wewere meeting every week and
you're exchanging stories andsometimes we were covering
stories together.
It was It was a good group ofus that you know this is what we
were doing every week, and whenhe let us all go, it was
(17:52):
devastating.
I wrote him a letter.
I wrote him a very long lettersaying basically everything i
wanted to tell him of why ithink his decision is a wrong
decision.
I sent it.
I was really sad.
My parents were like okay,let's, let's take a vacation and
just forget about this.
We went on the vacation when icame back but when i came back,
(18:14):
on the end Answering machinethere was a message.
The message was from editorthat was responsible for the for
the teens that were in writingfor the magazine.
She was like i don't know whatyou did, but everybody's back
And there's a team meeting andyou're already hired.
So i did it when i was 14 or 15at the time already, and i do
(18:35):
believe that there is somethingabout being able to Tell your
story and how you can help.
You know, whatever yourtrajectory is, you can change it
.
You just need to learn thesituation.
You know, i didn't tell him.
You know, hey, you made amistake, goodbye.
I actually had a whole Researchabout it.
(18:57):
I added quotes from people.
I added thank you letters thati was getting to the magazine
after i was writing specificstories.
Like i really beef this letterthat i wrote to him with a lot
of Data that basically back mystory of why he's making that
mistake.
I think that those pillars ofthe conversation that i had then
(19:19):
is probably the same, the samepillars that i used.
Probably like what twenty yearslater?
Daniela (19:26):
But naturally then you are a person with a logical and
very strategic mindset that isalso not just thinking about
what you want, but what is theother person needs.
With me, the first book that iever read my dad gave me, like
They'll Carnegie how to makefriends and influence people.
What is it for them so that ican get what i want?
Osnat (19:45):
yeah, something you said.
There's another book calledgive and take and it is about
The power of networking.
It is around reallyunderstanding motivations of
people.
Like it's not the seat, it'sactually sometimes People don't
even know what they need.
It is okay to check with them.
So, for example, with my boss,is like you know, you are about
(20:07):
to embark on this new strategy.
Did you know that Our techstack will never be able to
accommodate to your plans?
he never thought about it.
Not that i manipulated thesituation or told him what he
needed and he didn't.
He actually did need it, and ithink that We sometimes take for
granted that we might have moreinformation during that
(20:31):
situation than the other side.
Sharing that and saying did younotice that this is what's
missing and this is what i canbring to the table, is
definitely a strategy That canwork in those type of situations
.
Yes, yes, you're right, and ingeneral, i think that a rule of
good networking is, first thing,of what the other side needs,
(20:51):
so that you build trust, becauseif you bother getting to know
me, if you bother getting toknow what i need, you're
thinking of how to help me first.
Then obviously will be weird ifi don't help you yes, think to
understand first before wish tobe understood.
It's that being open to learningnew things.
Absolutely yes exactly, exactly.
Daniela (21:12):
I mean not easy, even in conversations when the other
person is bringing a point youlike why Are they disagree with
me?
and i had a situation like thatand i was.
I don't understand their pointand i'm getting furious.
At least i notice that this washappening to me and then, after
meeting, i try to see why is itThat we're having this
discussion and i didn't reallyme, but it was interesting, at
(21:35):
least i was able to.
Okay, i need to try tounderstand, but i couldn't yeah,
and actually sometimes even sayit.
Osnat (21:42):
Help me understand it, because i don't.
And it's okay.
It's like, as long as you'reopen, i think that the other
side will be open as well.
When you close yourself to newideas, when you close yourself
to a situation, when you havedifferent opinions, you lose the
chance or the advantage thatyou have to collaborate with the
(22:02):
other side.
Daniela (22:03):
Yes, then what happened ?
he hire, you did have toreinvent yourself.
Osnat (22:08):
Yeah, so i actually.
At the end of that conversationhe said you know what you know.
I hear what you're saying aboutwhat you can do for the company
and i Want you to do that.
Here's what my thought is.
And he laid out his strategyand his kind of first step
towards that strategy And ask meif i think that i can manage
that project.
(22:29):
I felt that it was a test,testing if i can stretch myself
and say yes, but i also knewthat it's a real one.
It's not like a fake test thathe's just letting me Do
something until he makes adifferent decision, like he
actually gave me a chance, heactually believed in me.
I felt then committed To makinghim succeed, not just myself
(22:53):
succeed.
Right, we had this bond in thatmoment that he trusts me and i
trust him and now i'll doeverything to prove that he made
the right decision.
Daniela (23:04):
And this is a very important point that you bring,
because you bond, there's now,you feel loyal.
Now i wanna work for you.
Osnat (23:11):
It's not just about the company, is about the person and
that, if leaders willunderstand That, that's how they
can connect and engage theirstaff definitely it's leadership
does have these traits, which idefinitely think he has Kind of
rallying someone around thecause, making it bigger, as like
(23:32):
a something that you work,everybody needs to work towards
and it's not just about him.
The secret that comes with it,or the magic that comes with it,
is that there is eventually aconnection between two people
And isn't.
As an employee, i constantlywanted him to be successful with
.
That said, it's very importantthat you don't join an
(23:55):
organization only to work forone specific leader.
It's not that i haven't done it, i've done it.
Leaders come with the risk Thatthey'll move on one day and
they'll grow, or that they'llget a bigger responsibility, and
then that reorg that comes withtheir growth can be risky to
(24:19):
you.
It puts you in that startingfrom scratch place that if
you're not prepared, then youknow you're.
You're again in this situationwhere you know the only person
you work for, the only personyou worried to make successful,
was that single person and whenthey're gone or when they move
on, there's no longer a placefor you in the organization.
(24:41):
So it's very important that,while you work for that person
and i wish for everybody to havea leader as i had, you still
work for the company.
You never just take care of yourteam or your things to succeed.
You actually really Look at thewhole company and not your
personal interest.
(25:02):
You work to have relationshipwith peers.
You make sure that not justyour boss but other leaders in
the company know What is theeffect of your work so that when
changes coming and it happenedto me in other work places when
my boss was no longer my boss,they had a job offer for me.
(25:23):
They said okay, there changes.
Now I would like you to join myteam.
We need to do our job reallywell, but leave that percentage
of time to both learn as well asnetwork with other people and
build relationship with yourpeers, because when the
organization changes, they'll bethere to give you the blessing
(25:44):
to stay, to grow, show your newopportunities.
Daniela (25:48):
Well said, thank you, okay.
And then what happened?
what happened?
you reinvented yourself.
You prove yourself that youwere doing a great job, yeah.
Osnat (25:59):
I did and i'm until today .
I think it's one of the bestjobs i had.
It is like that, both becauseof obviously prevailing and
staying with the company, butalso because i needed to
reinvent myself.
There is plenty of things ididn't know How to do and he
trusted me to close the gap andlearn new things.
And it's stretch me in.
It taught me things that ididn't know, that i could do
(26:21):
that, and now i know I alsoadded this kind of tool into my
tool set that i know that i canreinvent myself and i know that
i can add new skills to whateveri'm working on if i need to.
So that's like a confidencekind of tool That he added to me
(26:43):
.
I stayed with the company forseveral more years.
He moved on to other endeavors,but i reinvented, reinvented
myself over and over again inthe same organization state with
for several years until i movedmyself to another opportunity.
Daniela (27:00):
So you are adaptable and flexible.
Osnat (27:02):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, which i think like you have to be
otherwise absolutely Yeah, and ithink on our first conversation
i think i shared with you thisthe statistics that people on
average change.
I need to change jobs or jobsituations twelve times on
average.
if this is the average, somepeople do it more and some
(27:23):
people less obviously, butchange comes your way regardless
of who you are and what you do.
so it is a skill That you needto master because otherwise,
every single time, somethingchanges, your devastated or
you're at the situation that youmight lose versus be prepared
and be able to reinvent yourselfand win.
Daniela (27:45):
Yes, i mean it's okay to complain a little bit, but
then just move on, yeah, andshake it off and move on, yes,
okay, and then why do you change?
why do you leave the company?
Osnat (27:56):
i was just offered a new opportunity in a different
workplace.
I like to build things and Thatopportunity was too big to miss
.
It wasn't like you know i leftafter five years with the
company, so i wasn't like that.
I dropped everything and movedon.
I think that i Contribute itenough and grew in that
(28:17):
organization as much as i could,and just the new opportunity
that came my way i didn't lookfor it, you know, it kind of
came to me was interestingenough for me to decide that you
know, yeah, i want to do thatleap and grow again and start
from scratch again.
Daniela (28:33):
And also not.
do you believe also that thefirst year is your learning, the
second year there observing ifyou are a good fit for the team
and the third manager startthinking of you as a promotion
possibilities?
Osnat (28:46):
Yeah, i'm not sure if I'm agreeing on the timeline.
I do think that it is theprocess that you learn, there's
trust and then you startcontributing.
I hope that it's something thatis cyclical and it happens all
the time, right Like that.
in every single moment, youlearn, you build trust and you
provide value.
(29:06):
There is another great bookcalled The First 90 Days, and in
that book, you basically needto start creating value in the
first 90 days, right?
And then there's a whole way ofhow you do that and how you
choose what you want to do first, and so I think that, yes, that
there are stages, but I'm surethat the timeline needs to be
(29:29):
different than what youdescribed.
Daniela (29:32):
But those are the steps .
Osnat (29:33):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, and I do think that with time
you need to do all of them, allthe time.
Daniela (29:40):
And how long do you think is right to stay in a
place?
Osnat (29:43):
There's a quote that I like that says change the
changeable, accept theunchangeable and remove yourself
when it's unacceptable.
As long as you feel that yougrow, as long as you feel that
the environment is supportiveand good for your growth and for
your mental state, then youshould stay.
(30:05):
There are a lot of people whoconsult with me today.
It's like, okay, i'm like thisorganization is not for me and I
want to leave, and I actuallychallenge them to check what
exactly are they looking for,because there's no perfect
workplace.
If anybody thinks that there is, there isn't.
Even the most perfect workplacestill has bad days And I think
(30:25):
that we need to really learn toidentify bad days versus bad
workplace.
Definitely, if it is toxicenvironment and it's something
that you can't fix, then removeyourself from that organization.
But as long as you feel thatyou grow, learning and that you
bring to the table as much asyou get, then you should stay.
(30:46):
You should definitely stay.
I had someone that was asking me.
I got this feedback from myboss when I asked them to be
promoted.
A year past and now I'm stillnot promoted.
I think that this organizationis not supporting me and I
should leave.
And I challenged her becauseshe actually got the feedback.
(31:07):
It's actually.
They told her why they're notpromoting her And my question
was what did you do with thatfeedback?
It's very rare actually thatmanagers give you honest
feedback versus get scared whenyou don't perform and they need
to tell you something.
That is not that pleasant.
It's human nature that peopledon't like to give you the bad
(31:30):
news, and so I told her what didyou do with that feedback?
And she's like well, it's mynature, but they told you that
this is what blocks you frombeing promoted.
So unless you're going to takethat feedback and understand
this is what blocks you, unlessyou remove it, then of course
they won't promote you.
It's not the workplace that iswrong, it's not your manager
(31:51):
that is wrong.
But what you can say is say hey, i heard that feedback and I
don't know what to do with it.
Can you help me?
And actually, a new workplacewill not help you to grow.
An old workplace where you havethe credit, where you spent the
time when they know that you'rea good performer And from time
to time you also are not a greatperformer But that workplace
(32:14):
has more chances to invest inyou.
So I told her you should goback to your manager and say,
hey, i've done the best I canwith my own skills and my own
knowledge, but I think that inorder to really remove this
thing that blocks me from beingpromoted, i need a mentor, i
need a coach, i need a course, ineed something, and it's
(32:36):
probably you're still theredespite that feedback.
Then they'll probably give itto you, then make a decision
After you've grown, after you'vechanged, and after you do that,
maybe you will get promoted.
They never said no, they justgave you a feedback.
And I think that people need togo back to this mode of being
(32:56):
super open and honest with theirmanagers and with their
workplace of what would makethem do their best work.
It's OK that once you've doneyour best work and you've gotten
promoted and it's a greatworkplace, but you don't feel
that you can grow further tomove next.
But I always challenge thepeople to go to the existing
(33:21):
workplace and see if there'sanything else that you can get
to do and get the experience todo, because that credit is
something that is super valuableand it doesn't exist in a new
organization yet.
Daniela (33:34):
Yes, it is a very good story.
Thank you for bringing thatexample.
The most important thing is thepeople around you.
If you feel that your managersupports you, wants you to learn
because you have to give aswell, then I think that it is a
good place.
And the problem is what yousaid that no managers really
want to tell you the truth.
There are sometimes theselittle things that they cannot
(33:57):
really point to exactly, butthere is something that is
telling you because maybe theydon't know, they're worried
about difficult conversation,they don't care enough.
Finding a mentor in companiesis difficult.
Osnat (34:08):
Absolutely, and I think people just really need to take
responsibilities around theirpersonal growth.
If you feel that something isblocking you from moving forward
, then ask for help.
It's OK to ask your manager,but if your manager is
struggling, they're peers,there's HR, there's your boss's
boss.
Just try to come with an openmind and say I'm looking to grow
(34:33):
And what can I do in order togrow?
Hopefully, you're in this typeof organization that will give
you that answer.
Here's what you can do in orderto grow.
But I do think that we need totake personal responsibility and
say here's what I think wouldhelp me to grow.
Yes, of course, a lot of thetimes and I had that experience
(34:53):
where people on my team come andsay, ok, i'm moving to the next
job, and I said, wait, wait, ididn't know that you're not
happy Once we started working on.
Ok, what are you missing?
What are you getting in the newworkplace?
I said, well, i can give that,i can do that.
And I had people on my team sayyou know what, so I'm staying.
But that conversation doesn'tneed to come only when you move
(35:16):
to the next job.
Constantly be responsible foryour personal growth and come to
your manager and say this iswhat I need, this is what I want
to do, this is how I can grow,and let them think as well, like
do you think you know?
ask a question, do you thinkthat you have other ideas for me
to grow here?
I would like to do more here.
I would like to be promoted.
(35:36):
And then I think that thatopenness is key to us being
happy in our career and feelingcontent and feeling that we
spend a good amount of time in agood place.
Daniela (35:48):
Yes, yes, thank you.
So you moved to a differentcompany, and then what happened?
What was?
Osnat (35:54):
that.
Well, the other organizationwas very, very different in a
way that I didn't come to managean existing team.
I actually needed to build ateam and needed to hire.
So it came with its newchallenges, which, you know, i
liked that I could do that.
I built a new team.
I built a new organization.
I had a different focus.
It was a different type ofcompany.
(36:16):
I love that too, and I thinkthat what is important really,
you know, regardless of what wedo in our career, is that we
constantly grow and weconstantly feel that it's a
place that nourishes us andhelps us, you know, be happy
generally, and so I'm constantlyin that pursuit of, okay, what
(36:36):
is that place that will use myskills for their growth and that
I can grow with it.
And that's why I actually thinkthat starting from scratch
needs to be a mindset and askill that we own, because I
ended my book updating of whatI'm doing today, but it's not
the last thing I'm going to do.
It's like I'm probably going tochange this as well.
Change is coming my way, so itdoesn't stop.
(37:00):
Of course, it's something thatwe constantly need to learn to
do and have the right mindset,the right network and the right
information and knowledge toallow ourselves to grow.
Daniela (37:11):
And one of the chapters of your book you write on how
to build your board.
Yes, You're a director ofdirectors, do you always had one
?
How did it start I?
Osnat (37:21):
always had someone the first person who was my mentor.
I met when I was a teenager andwe are still connected.
He actually wrote the forwardfor my book.
I felt that it would be a veryappropriate closure to me,
knowing him for so many years,and for him advising me about my
(37:44):
career and my starting fromscratch.
But I think surroundingourselves with people that and
we talked about it that knowsomething more than we do in
whatever aspect that we'retrying to close the gap on is
where we can grow, and to haveaccess to people that can
(38:05):
support our career growth andour personal growth is vital is
work as well.
It's something that youconstantly need to look for
those type of people.
You need to nourish thatrelationship, you need to learn
to give back and you need toalso learn when to activate them
(38:26):
.
So I did mention, for example,that one of my advisors is my
ex-boss, but I also know what hebrings to our conversation when
we connect, and what he bringsis brutally honest, actionable
feedback.
I have other people in myadvisory network that think I'm
(38:48):
the best thing they've everworked with, and it might be
true and it might not, butsometimes you also need that
When I'm down, i talk to thosepeople so that they prepare me
to talk to the other ones, and Ithink that really having these
different people in your networkthat you can activate, but also
knowing what you need, is thatkey to properly facing changes.
(39:14):
There are those people that areexperienced and are able to tell
you.
Here's what I would do whenthis comes my way, or here are
the things that I did whensomething similar to what you're
experiencing happened, and itallows you to learn from their
experience, versus experiencingeverything yourself, cause I
(39:34):
don't believe we need toexperience everything.
We can learn from otherpeople's failures, we can learn
from their advice, we can learnfrom their mistakes, and then we
can avoid them.
So it is important to surroundyourself with honest people that
are open to helping you learnfrom them.
Daniela (39:55):
And so how many people are on your board?
Osnat (39:58):
Well, i think it changes.
There are certain people thatare with me for many, many years
Probably about four of them arewith me for many years And
others I probably activate whenI need to.
Some of them might know, andprobably after reading my book,
they know exactly what theirrole in my life is.
I make sure that I give back.
(40:20):
I make sure that I stay intouch.
I make sure that I don'tcontact them only when I need
things.
It's a relationship.
It's something that you need tonurture, to growing your
network and the people that youknow.
But also come prepared.
Come prepared with what is yourask.
Don't waste people's time.
Be generous with yours.
Ask questions of how you canhelp as well and give back, and
(40:43):
that's how relationships arebeing built.
Daniela (40:46):
Yes, that's very well said, osna.
I believe too that it is arelationship that wouldn't have
to cultivate.
We have to give as much as wereceive.
What is the new you?
Is there such a thing Well?
Osnat (40:59):
until the next time, probably.
I constantly learn.
I constantly put time to bebigger and better.
I constantly invest in mypersonal growth and knowing new
things.
Work hard to be mentally strong, because when we face changes,
that's one of the things thatcan break you.
So I take care of myself and Imake sure to be in the right
(41:23):
mindset when I start working onthings.
We need to be kind to ourselvesVery much like we would give a
really good advice to a friend.
be our own advisors and takecare of our mind and our souls,
because the workplace is achallenging place And the
mindset.
Daniela (41:42):
what about your daughters?
Are you teaching them this?
Can you see that one daughterhas this mindset and the other
one has a different mindset?
Osnat (41:50):
So first, of all, having two very opinionated, strong
girls is one of the things I'mvery proud of.
They know me as a career womanand they know that career is
important to me and they knowthat, in addition to being their
mother and a wife and a friend,something that is very big in
(42:13):
my life is my career.
When I can I bring them to work.
They spend time working in mybusiness as well, like they.
For example, when I was sellingmy initial pre-order for my
book, they were wrapping thebooks and they came with me to
the post office and they werecarrying the books.
So they understand that work isnot just a paycheck.
(42:35):
They understand that there istime and investment and effort
that is put into it.
I know that.
They see it, i know that theyunderstand it And I hope that
they learn from me that thejourney has a lot of ups and
downs and it's not just it'sperfect and mom has a job.
You know, sometimes mom has baddays at work, but she prevails
(43:00):
and moves on and she still has ajob and that's an important
skill that they have.
Daniela (43:07):
I heard that one of the secrets of successful people is
that when they have a setbackthat it's okay to feel bad, How
fast do you overcome thatobstacle?
How fast do you bounce back?
Osnat (43:19):
Catherine Parsons.
She's quoted in my book.
She specifically talks aboutfailure being a stepping stone,
like just another stone on yourjourney.
So you skip that stone and youmove on, and as long as that's
part of your journey, it's good.
But don't let that journey stopthere, like don't be
discouraged.
Daniela (43:39):
That is so true.
We grew up learning thatmistakes are a bad thing, and,
in fact, they are learningopportunities and opportunities
for growth, and we need thosemoments.
Yes, what are you doing now,osnath?
So?
Osnat (43:54):
I'm doing so many things.
So I work as a chief productofficer at several ventures, so
I help launch products andchange strategies.
And I work in a differentcompany.
I actually do a whole reorg, arestructure for the group to
make them better, and so I dothat.
(44:15):
But I also do a lot of talksaround my book.
I do workshops with my book.
I'm working on a course rightnow.
Really I'm busy and I'm doingmultiple things And I think that
as long as that makes me happy,then this is what I'll do,
until one of them will not be asaccurate for me and I'll change
(44:36):
it, start from scratch and moveon.
Daniela (44:39):
Wonderful.
When did you decided to writethis book?
What happened?
Osnat (44:43):
Well, I think that a book was already in me and I know
enough authors today that I knowthat each one of them had a
book in them.
I didn't know what I'm going towrite about and this one was
born out of this mission ofbetter workplaces.
Frankly, it was my husband whosaid you know, you need to write
a book.
(45:03):
When will you write a book?
And me, coming from I mentionedwhen I was 14, I was writing
back then.
So writing is something Ialways done, even if it was like
a journaling or something thathelps me put my thoughts
together.
So writing is not somethingthat is hard for me, but I
definitely had my husband,serving as an advisor at that
(45:26):
time, saying you know, I thinkthat you need to put your theory
into writings.
You know, sometimes we need apush and I needed that.
Probably He is, I want to say,the last push.
I needed to create a book, butit was definitely in my mind for
many years before.
Daniela (45:42):
Great, you had a theory for many, many years, yeah.
Osnat (45:45):
Yeah, definitely, and also it's something that
happened to me multiple times,right Like I didn't come to it
after I've experienced changeonce, and the people stories
that are mentioned in my bookhave also went through multiple
changes in their lifetime, so Ithink that it merited, you know,
to be featured in a bookWonderful.
Daniela (46:07):
Wonderful.
You have the book and then nowyou're going to, you're working
towards an audible, an audibleand a course.
No, I remember the first timewe spoke you, also to be a
speaker.
Osnat (46:17):
I do talks at organizations before and after
they do restructure Andsometimes I do it kind of more
inspirational talks.
but I also work with teamsafter change to recover the team
, to build trust, to build thatcommunication, to teach them to
build personal board ofdirectors within the company.
Daniela (46:39):
So now you're not working for a company, you're
working on your own company.
Yeah, yeah, i am.
Osnat (46:44):
So now you are a consultant, a writer and author,
yes, a speaker, a mom, a coursedeveloper Yeah, having a very
rich career, and I think thatit's something that all of us
should have have multiple thingsthat we work on, because, you
know, when we have bad days inone side of the house, can
(47:08):
another place of the house beworking well.
Daniela (47:11):
That is a very good point.
Thank you, Osnat.
Thank you so much for all thesenuggets of wisdom and this
wonderful conversation.
Thank you, i hope you enjoyedtoday's episode.
I am Daniela and you werelistening to, because Everyone
Has a Story.
Please take five seconds rightnow and think of somebody in
(47:31):
your life that may enjoy whatyou just heard of, someone that
has a story to be shared andpreserved.
When you think of that person,shoot them a text with the link
of this podcast.
This would allow the ordinarymagic to go further.
Join me next time for anotherstory conversation.
Thank you for listening.
Hasta pronto.
Hi, i'm Daniela.
Welcome to my podcast, becauseeveryone has a story, the place
to give ordinary people, stories, the chance to be shared and
preserved.
Our stories become the languageof connections.
(00:22):
Let's enjoy it, connect andrelate, because everyone has a
story.
Welcome to episode number 99.
My guest, Osnat Benari.
Osna is a product coach, authorof the best-selling book
Starting from Scratch andspeaker, among so many other
(00:44):
things that she actually hastalents for.
Imagine leaving everything youknow behind to start a new life
in another country with anotherculture, only to be warm a few
days before you're leaving thatthe job you're moving for may
not be there after all.
That's precisely what happenedto Osna On our first pre-chat.
I was so engaged with herconversation and the book that
(01:08):
she wrote that I have to get itimmediately.
Osnat is sharing insights fromher book Starting from scratch.
It is a toolkit packed witheverything you need to make
change work for you.
You will learn how to grow yourknowledge, build your
resilience, connect with theright kind of support, recognize
when change is coming andmanage your mental health along
(01:30):
the way.
She's not only a beautifulperson, she's a very smart woman
and has invaluable lessons forpersonal development and career
reinvention.
Lex and your story.
Welcome, osna.
I'm very excited that you'rehere today, and I'm very happy
that I met you as well, sowelcome.
Osnat (01:48):
Thank you.
I'm excited as well becausewe've spoken so much and I feel
like we became friends, so I'mhappy we're doing this And
you're in New York and I'mVancouver.
Daniela (01:58):
So the other extremes.
Osnat (02:00):
Yeah.
Daniela (02:01):
Osnat, why do you want to share a story with us?
Osnat (02:04):
I started writing the book, i think for my own healing
.
I went through so many changesin the workplace that affected
me in my career.
Every single time I needed tostart from scratch.
I needed to recover, i neededto reinvent myself and it takes
so much Even after you do that,it still takes a toll So I felt
(02:27):
like I needed a reset, i neededto clean this up.
So I probably started formyself, but then when I decided
to open the door and kind ofshare it with the world, i felt
that it has a bigger mission,which is to recover more people
and to recover more work places,because eventually that's where
(02:48):
we spend so much of our timethat I needed to be good.
I needed to be a good place.
I wanted to be a place where Ienjoy coming to when, where I
feel that I can grow, and wheremy peers are healthy and happy
as well.
Daniela (03:05):
Yes, and when we spoke the first time, i was very
curious about your book, soimmediately I got it and it's
called Starting from Scratch Andit has a lot of wonderful
information that I'm sure you'regoing to share it with us.
My next question is when doesyour story start?
Osnat (03:22):
Yeah, my chapter starts about nine years ago.
Eight nine years ago I moved tothe States.
I moved for a job And then Ireceived a call from my ex boss
saying that actually he'sleaving and I shouldn't come to
the United States, I shouldn'tactually go forward with the
(03:42):
relocation offer that they gaveme.
And he said that because heknew something that I was
probably blocking or notadmitting that that would put me
in risk of the reorg that wouldcome after his departure, would
put me at a risk, put me in aplace where, okay, i moved, my
family, i moved and started in anew country and now I need to
(04:05):
go back.
So my story starts there, inthat kind of conversation that
we're having and me deciding togo ahead and then me going
through that restructure,putting me at risk what I needed
to do in order to reinventmyself and not lose that job.
Daniela (04:22):
Wonderful You were living in Israel.
Yes.
Osnat (04:25):
I was living in Israel, moved to the States for a job,
thinking that I would basicallycome to do a similar job to what
I did originally in Israel.
It was a little bit bigger andI received responsibility for
another team.
But I knew the team, i knew theproduct, i knew my job.
There was some stability,despite the fact that I'm
(04:46):
starting in a new country thatallowed me to have the
confidence to come and do thiswork here.
But then you know when a reorgcomes your way and that shuffles
all the cards and all theconfidence that I had that
everything is okay and I knoweverything and I know where this
is going, changed all of asudden.
Daniela (05:08):
Yes, i can imagine Going back.
So you boss was leaving and hesaid don't take the job, don't
go to the States.
But you decided that you weregoing to do it anyway.
Osnat (05:18):
It was a little bit too late to say that, to make that
decision, because I alreadyrented my home.
I already had like, literallywhen he was calling, i had
tenants come in and to take thekeys It was very late in the
game.
it would have been devastatingto cancel it either way.
(05:39):
but definitely to pack and moveand rent the apartment here in
New York and then pack again andgo back would have been even
more painful.
He was trying to basically warnme that that's possible.
He probably knew better than methat there are people that were
having different plans for meor different plans for the group
(06:01):
And I decided that it's toolate, the opportunity is very
big.
And then I think that mentallywhen he called me, mentally
we're already gone.
So that's why it was very, veryhard to say, oh you know what,
okay, i'm not going to risk it.
And I will say that in otheropportunities, especially in
Israel, where I knew the network, i knew the industry, every
(06:25):
time it didn't work out, i wasable to reinvent myself and find
another job.
But to come to a new countrywith no network and without
really knowing the culture andeverybody around and also having
that fear of losing your workpermit, basically that added a
new level of stress that reallyrequired me to stretch whatever
(06:49):
I had in me and be able toreinvent myself.
so I don't lose that job, wow.
Daniela (06:55):
You came with your family.
Did you think you were going togo back?
or you think, well, if I losethis job, I am going to find
another job here.
Osnat (07:02):
I knew that if I lose the job, i will not have something
else instead.
The work permit came with aspecific workplace And I even
had in my contract that Iunderstand that that is a
possibility and that if thathappens, then I have a very
limited time to basically packmy things and leave.
That option was not really anoption.
(07:24):
My only option was to pullwhatever I had in me and
reinvent myself so that theydon't let me go.
I was actually invited to ameeting with then my boss's
replacement and he called me tohis office to fire me.
In that conversation I saw itcoming.
(07:45):
You already started.
There's certain things you say,a certain tone that you have
when it comes your way.
He already started and then Itold him that I need to stop him
and tell him that I understandwhere this conversation is going
, but I would love for him tounderstand what I can do for the
company.
(08:06):
I can tell you what I'm doingright now and I understand that
if this is what I'm doing, thenyou don't need me.
But here are my skills and hereare the things that I can do
for the company And this is whyyou should basically rehire me,
or why I'm still a good fit forthe company and for him
specifically for his plans, andhe liked it.
(08:26):
He liked the fact that one thatI challenged him, he was very
much of that leader There's noother word for that but a leader
that is not afraid of anemployee objecting or an
employee saying what they think,and he's actually very much
intrigued by what other peopleare saying, by other opinion, by
(08:47):
other ways of doing things.
So me challenging him andtelling him no, you're about to
make a mistake If you let me go,he actually appreciated it And
he became, not only then my newboss, but then later until today
, my very, very dear advisor.
Like every time I need toconsult about my career, he's
(09:08):
one of the first people I call.
And I'm saying one of the firstpeople because he's that person
that will give me the honesttruth back.
When sometimes I'm not asstrong mentally, then I need to
work on my mental part first andthen call him, because he will
tell me very straight what I'mdoing wrong, what I should be
(09:30):
doing, where am I failing, andyou need to be in the right
headspace in order to get thatfeedback.
I had that really honestconversation with him and he
appreciated it and chose me,chose me to stay and chose me
for a new job.
Daniela (09:46):
That sounds great.
Osnat, how do you prepare forthat conversation?
Were you thinking where you'rehaving a plan?
How did that happen?
Osnat (09:53):
Absolutely.
I was very much prepared forthat conversation.
I was actually waiting for awhile.
I was actually surprised thatit's not happening much faster.
What I did is I learned who heis.
First, i looked up his resume.
I looked on his LinkedIn.
He was extremely senior, sothere was a press release when
(10:14):
he joined the company explainingwhat his vision is and why he
joined the company and why thecompany hired him.
I started connecting the dotsof okay, now I understand what
he's coming here to do.
I started assuming what hewould need on his team and it
(10:35):
wasn't what I was at the time.
He's a very creative person andhe came with the new agenda and
I'm a techie.
I came to take care of the tech.
A lot of the times people likehim take the tech side for
granted.
They would say, okay, i expectthis to work already.
(10:56):
Now let's focus on the creativeside.
I knew that if I would come andgive him all my spiel around
why I'm so great in leading thetech side, it would not resonate
with him.
It's a different story that heneeds to hear.
I did tell him that what hewould need on the tech side in
order for his creative plans tohappen and what we're missing on
(11:22):
the tech side, so that whatevercreative plans he has, they're
not possible on the current techthat we had.
Then it created one.
He understood that I can speakhis language, that I am open to
hearing and being led by someonethat isn't a techie like me.
(11:43):
And then the second thing thathe appreciated he appreciated
that i already came with anunderstanding of You know,
whatever your plans are, theywill not work because we're not
ready.
Like i explained to him whatyou know, our focus was in my
previous role and that's why wenever sold for what he's coming
with.
So then we created this trustin the room where he said, okay,
(12:07):
i need her cuz she knows me,she understands my plans and she
also understands what we wouldneed Going forward.
But i spent many, many days inorder to understand who he is,
what's his agenda, what he wouldcome to do.
I did make some assumption, buta lot of the information exists
and in my book i do mention it.
(12:27):
I know that when we're hired,we are in this mindset of you
know, let's just do our work anddo it best, but We do need to
leave a little bit of room toopen our ears and our eyes to
what's going around us, becauseannouncements such as his
joining the company Had so muchinformation and so many
(12:50):
opportunities for me and forother people as well in the
organization.
But we need to keep our headsup in order to listen.
We can't just come and do thework.
Yes, we need to do your workninety five percent of the time,
but leave that five percent tobe open to listening to the
organization, listening to themarket, listening to your
(13:13):
customers, so that you have thisbigger picture and you ready
when changes coming your way.
Daniela (13:21):
That's wonderful visa wisdom, thank you.
How do you learn to do this?
Osnat (13:26):
so in my book i do talk about having and learning
mindset to put yourself in thisplace where you're constantly
learning new things.
There's no magic in this.
No one's born like that.
The only way to really do it isto put it on our calendar, to
put an hour week where we freeourselves to read books, to read
(13:50):
blogs, to read newsletters, tojust be open to new things that
are happening around us.
So it is related to your work.
It is related to what you'respecialized in, but it is
something that is extra.
You sometimes can take away newopportunities from it.
(14:10):
You know, maybe newResponsibilities that you can
take over on your job, or maybeeven a promoted version of you
will take care of whateveryou're taking care of today,
plus other things that you'velearned.
Being open and speaking to Peersand speaking to people that do
your job in a different industryor your job in a different
(14:33):
company entails really learningand knowing new things And it's
a muscle.
So if you do it an hour everyweek and you do it for a while,
then you start putting aside alist of things, and i have a
list of things.
I do it on fridays.
These are the emails i want toread and make sure that i didn't
(14:54):
miss a piece of informationthat could be Valuable.
Or there's a newsletter thati'm subscribed to which has a
lot of information that i liketo know, but i don't have time
during the week, so what i do isi flag them and on fridays i go
and i look for that newsletterand i spend that time To read
that.
Have that list of you knoweither books or podcasts or
(15:17):
youtube videos or whatever it isand from time to time you can
also pepper it with you knowmeeting other people.
One of the things i like to askpeople when i meet them is what
do you recommend?
you know i read, or is there aplace that you go and you read
things in this industry that ican learn from as well?
And then i add it to my list,and i never finished that list.
(15:41):
It's an never ending list and ido change priorities, but it is
a habit that i have, andsomething that we need to all
have as part of our preparation,to never be really blindsided
by change and i think this goesalso for your regular life.
Daniela (15:59):
Yeah, maybe set up a time during the week just to
learn about anything like.
Even if you are like me, i wantto learn about.
Technology is something thatthere is out there.
So, yeah, that is a great idea.
Where you like this, since youwere younger, where you always
the person that find a strategyto convince somebody, tell you
how i can sell myself, i feellike you read my book, i thought
(16:23):
that the first time ireinvented myself was that.
Osnat (16:26):
Was that what i mentioned when i moved to the states and
i had to reinvent myself in thatroom to not get laid off?
but when i wrote the book, theni did more digging and more
research and looked into Whatare the kind of what's in my dna
that made me able to reinventmyself.
(16:47):
And then, you know, i all of asudden recalled i was working as
a teenager.
I was 14 years old.
I was working for a teenmagazine.
As a teen journalist, i waswriting stories about children
like me, about school.
I had A gossip column where thejournal was with.
The magazine was giving meaccess to local celebrities that
(17:09):
i could Interview and writetheir stories, doing it for
about a year.
And then, all of a sudden, themagazine had a restructure.
They brought a new editor inchief and he had different plans
for the magazine, and one ofhis plans was to let go of all
the teen journalists And make ita more professionally written
(17:29):
magazine by only adultjournalists.
So that was his plan.
He let me and my team go.
We were about 20 of us that wewere meeting every week and
you're exchanging stories andsometimes we were covering
stories together.
It was It was a good group ofus that you know this is what we
were doing every week, and whenhe let us all go, it was
(17:52):
devastating.
I wrote him a letter.
I wrote him a very long lettersaying basically everything i
wanted to tell him of why ithink his decision is a wrong
decision.
I sent it.
I was really sad.
My parents were like okay,let's, let's take a vacation and
just forget about this.
We went on the vacation when icame back but when i came back,
(18:14):
on the end Answering machinethere was a message.
The message was from editorthat was responsible for the for
the teens that were in writingfor the magazine.
She was like i don't know whatyou did, but everybody's back
And there's a team meeting andyou're already hired.
So i did it when i was 14 or 15at the time already, and i do
(18:35):
believe that there is somethingabout being able to Tell your
story and how you can help.
You know, whatever yourtrajectory is, you can change it
.
You just need to learn thesituation.
You know, i didn't tell him.
You know, hey, you made amistake, goodbye.
I actually had a whole Researchabout it.
(18:57):
I added quotes from people.
I added thank you letters thati was getting to the magazine
after i was writing specificstories.
Like i really beef this letterthat i wrote to him with a lot
of Data that basically back mystory of why he's making that
mistake.
I think that those pillars ofthe conversation that i had then
(19:19):
is probably the same, the samepillars that i used.
Probably like what twenty yearslater?
Daniela (19:26):
But naturally then you are a person with a logical and
very strategic mindset that isalso not just thinking about
what you want, but what is theother person needs.
With me, the first book that iever read my dad gave me, like
They'll Carnegie how to makefriends and influence people.
What is it for them so that ican get what i want?
Osnat (19:45):
yeah, something you said.
There's another book calledgive and take and it is about
The power of networking.
It is around reallyunderstanding motivations of
people.
Like it's not the seat, it'sactually sometimes People don't
even know what they need.
It is okay to check with them.
So, for example, with my boss,is like you know, you are about
(20:07):
to embark on this new strategy.
Did you know that Our techstack will never be able to
accommodate to your plans?
he never thought about it.
Not that i manipulated thesituation or told him what he
needed and he didn't.
He actually did need it, and ithink that We sometimes take for
granted that we might have moreinformation during that
(20:31):
situation than the other side.
Sharing that and saying did younotice that this is what's
missing and this is what i canbring to the table, is
definitely a strategy That canwork in those type of situations
.
Yes, yes, you're right, and ingeneral, i think that a rule of
good networking is, first thing,of what the other side needs,
(20:51):
so that you build trust, becauseif you bother getting to know
me, if you bother getting toknow what i need, you're
thinking of how to help me first.
Then obviously will be weird ifi don't help you yes, think to
understand first before wish tobe understood.
It's that being open to learningnew things.
Absolutely yes exactly, exactly.
Daniela (21:12):
I mean not easy, even in conversations when the other
person is bringing a point youlike why Are they disagree with
me?
and i had a situation like thatand i was.
I don't understand their pointand i'm getting furious.
At least i notice that this washappening to me and then, after
meeting, i try to see why is itThat we're having this
discussion and i didn't reallyme, but it was interesting, at
(21:35):
least i was able to.
Okay, i need to try tounderstand, but i couldn't yeah,
and actually sometimes even sayit.
Osnat (21:42):
Help me understand it, because i don't.
And it's okay.
It's like, as long as you'reopen, i think that the other
side will be open as well.
When you close yourself to newideas, when you close yourself
to a situation, when you havedifferent opinions, you lose the
chance or the advantage thatyou have to collaborate with the
(22:02):
other side.
Daniela (22:03):
Yes, then what happened ?
he hire, you did have toreinvent yourself.
Osnat (22:08):
Yeah, so i actually.
At the end of that conversationhe said you know what you know.
I hear what you're saying aboutwhat you can do for the company
and i Want you to do that.
Here's what my thought is.
And he laid out his strategyand his kind of first step
towards that strategy And ask meif i think that i can manage
that project.
(22:29):
I felt that it was a test,testing if i can stretch myself
and say yes, but i also knewthat it's a real one.
It's not like a fake test thathe's just letting me Do
something until he makes adifferent decision, like he
actually gave me a chance, heactually believed in me.
I felt then committed To makinghim succeed, not just myself
(22:53):
succeed.
Right, we had this bond in thatmoment that he trusts me and i
trust him and now i'll doeverything to prove that he made
the right decision.
Daniela (23:04):
And this is a very important point that you bring,
because you bond, there's now,you feel loyal.
Now i wanna work for you.
Osnat (23:11):
It's not just about the company, is about the person and
that, if leaders willunderstand That, that's how they
can connect and engage theirstaff definitely it's leadership
does have these traits, which idefinitely think he has Kind of
rallying someone around thecause, making it bigger, as like
(23:32):
a something that you work,everybody needs to work towards
and it's not just about him.
The secret that comes with it,or the magic that comes with it,
is that there is eventually aconnection between two people
And isn't.
As an employee, i constantlywanted him to be successful with
.
That said, it's very importantthat you don't join an
(23:55):
organization only to work forone specific leader.
It's not that i haven't done it, i've done it.
Leaders come with the risk Thatthey'll move on one day and
they'll grow, or that they'llget a bigger responsibility, and
then that reorg that comes withtheir growth can be risky to
(24:19):
you.
It puts you in that startingfrom scratch place that if
you're not prepared, then youknow you're.
You're again in this situationwhere you know the only person
you work for, the only personyou worried to make successful,
was that single person and whenthey're gone or when they move
on, there's no longer a placefor you in the organization.
(24:41):
So it's very important that,while you work for that person
and i wish for everybody to havea leader as i had, you still
work for the company.
You never just take care of yourteam or your things to succeed.
You actually really Look at thewhole company and not your
personal interest.
(25:02):
You work to have relationshipwith peers.
You make sure that not justyour boss but other leaders in
the company know What is theeffect of your work so that when
changes coming and it happenedto me in other work places when
my boss was no longer my boss,they had a job offer for me.
(25:23):
They said okay, there changes.
Now I would like you to join myteam.
We need to do our job reallywell, but leave that percentage
of time to both learn as well asnetwork with other people and
build relationship with yourpeers, because when the
organization changes, they'll bethere to give you the blessing
(25:44):
to stay, to grow, show your newopportunities.
Daniela (25:48):
Well said, thank you, okay.
And then what happened?
what happened?
you reinvented yourself.
You prove yourself that youwere doing a great job, yeah.
Osnat (25:59):
I did and i'm until today .
I think it's one of the bestjobs i had.
It is like that, both becauseof obviously prevailing and
staying with the company, butalso because i needed to
reinvent myself.
There is plenty of things ididn't know How to do and he
trusted me to close the gap andlearn new things.
And it's stretch me in.
It taught me things that ididn't know, that i could do
(26:21):
that, and now i know I alsoadded this kind of tool into my
tool set that i know that i canreinvent myself and i know that
i can add new skills to whateveri'm working on if i need to.
So that's like a confidencekind of tool That he added to me
(26:43):
.
I stayed with the company forseveral more years.
He moved on to other endeavors,but i reinvented, reinvented
myself over and over again inthe same organization state with
for several years until i movedmyself to another opportunity.
Daniela (27:00):
So you are adaptable and flexible.
Osnat (27:02):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, which i think like you have to be
otherwise absolutely Yeah, and ithink on our first conversation
i think i shared with you thisthe statistics that people on
average change.
I need to change jobs or jobsituations twelve times on
average.
if this is the average, somepeople do it more and some
(27:23):
people less obviously, butchange comes your way regardless
of who you are and what you do.
so it is a skill That you needto master because otherwise,
every single time, somethingchanges, your devastated or
you're at the situation that youmight lose versus be prepared
and be able to reinvent yourselfand win.
Daniela (27:45):
Yes, i mean it's okay to complain a little bit, but
then just move on, yeah, andshake it off and move on, yes,
okay, and then why do you change?
why do you leave the company?
Osnat (27:56):
i was just offered a new opportunity in a different
workplace.
I like to build things and Thatopportunity was too big to miss
.
It wasn't like you know i leftafter five years with the
company, so i wasn't like that.
I dropped everything and movedon.
I think that i Contribute itenough and grew in that
(28:17):
organization as much as i could,and just the new opportunity
that came my way i didn't lookfor it, you know, it kind of
came to me was interestingenough for me to decide that you
know, yeah, i want to do thatleap and grow again and start
from scratch again.
Daniela (28:33):
And also not.
do you believe also that thefirst year is your learning, the
second year there observing ifyou are a good fit for the team
and the third manager startthinking of you as a promotion
possibilities?
Osnat (28:46):
Yeah, i'm not sure if I'm agreeing on the timeline.
I do think that it is theprocess that you learn, there's
trust and then you startcontributing.
I hope that it's something thatis cyclical and it happens all
the time, right Like that.
in every single moment, youlearn, you build trust and you
provide value.
(29:06):
There is another great bookcalled The First 90 Days, and in
that book, you basically needto start creating value in the
first 90 days, right?
And then there's a whole way ofhow you do that and how you
choose what you want to do first, and so I think that, yes, that
there are stages, but I'm surethat the timeline needs to be
(29:29):
different than what youdescribed.
Daniela (29:32):
But those are the steps .
Osnat (29:33):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, and I do think that with time
you need to do all of them, allthe time.
Daniela (29:40):
And how long do you think is right to stay in a
place?
Osnat (29:43):
There's a quote that I like that says change the
changeable, accept theunchangeable and remove yourself
when it's unacceptable.
As long as you feel that yougrow, as long as you feel that
the environment is supportiveand good for your growth and for
your mental state, then youshould stay.
(30:05):
There are a lot of people whoconsult with me today.
It's like, okay, i'm like thisorganization is not for me and I
want to leave, and I actuallychallenge them to check what
exactly are they looking for,because there's no perfect
workplace.
If anybody thinks that there is, there isn't.
Even the most perfect workplacestill has bad days And I think
(30:25):
that we need to really learn toidentify bad days versus bad
workplace.
Definitely, if it is toxicenvironment and it's something
that you can't fix, then removeyourself from that organization.
But as long as you feel thatyou grow, learning and that you
bring to the table as much asyou get, then you should stay.
(30:46):
You should definitely stay.
I had someone that was asking me.
I got this feedback from myboss when I asked them to be
promoted.
A year past and now I'm stillnot promoted.
I think that this organizationis not supporting me and I
should leave.
And I challenged her becauseshe actually got the feedback.
(31:07):
It's actually.
They told her why they're notpromoting her And my question
was what did you do with thatfeedback?
It's very rare actually thatmanagers give you honest
feedback versus get scared whenyou don't perform and they need
to tell you something.
That is not that pleasant.
It's human nature that peopledon't like to give you the bad
(31:30):
news, and so I told her what didyou do with that feedback?
And she's like well, it's mynature, but they told you that
this is what blocks you frombeing promoted.
So unless you're going to takethat feedback and understand
this is what blocks you, unlessyou remove it, then of course
they won't promote you.
It's not the workplace that iswrong, it's not your manager
(31:51):
that is wrong.
But what you can say is say hey, i heard that feedback and I
don't know what to do with it.
Can you help me?
And actually, a new workplacewill not help you to grow.
An old workplace where you havethe credit, where you spent the
time when they know that you'rea good performer And from time
to time you also are not a greatperformer But that workplace
(32:14):
has more chances to invest inyou.
So I told her you should goback to your manager and say,
hey, i've done the best I canwith my own skills and my own
knowledge, but I think that inorder to really remove this
thing that blocks me from beingpromoted, i need a mentor, i
need a coach, i need a course, ineed something, and it's
(32:36):
probably you're still theredespite that feedback.
Then they'll probably give itto you, then make a decision
After you've grown, after you'vechanged, and after you do that,
maybe you will get promoted.
They never said no, they justgave you a feedback.
And I think that people need togo back to this mode of being
(32:56):
super open and honest with theirmanagers and with their
workplace of what would makethem do their best work.
It's OK that once you've doneyour best work and you've gotten
promoted and it's a greatworkplace, but you don't feel
that you can grow further tomove next.
But I always challenge thepeople to go to the existing
(33:21):
workplace and see if there'sanything else that you can get
to do and get the experience todo, because that credit is
something that is super valuableand it doesn't exist in a new
organization yet.
Daniela (33:34):
Yes, it is a very good story.
Thank you for bringing thatexample.
The most important thing is thepeople around you.
If you feel that your managersupports you, wants you to learn
because you have to give aswell, then I think that it is a
good place.
And the problem is what yousaid that no managers really
want to tell you the truth.
There are sometimes theselittle things that they cannot
(33:57):
really point to exactly, butthere is something that is
telling you because maybe theydon't know, they're worried
about difficult conversation,they don't care enough.
Finding a mentor in companiesis difficult.
Osnat (34:08):
Absolutely, and I think people just really need to take
responsibilities around theirpersonal growth.
If you feel that something isblocking you from moving forward
, then ask for help.
It's OK to ask your manager,but if your manager is
struggling, they're peers,there's HR, there's your boss's
boss.
Just try to come with an openmind and say I'm looking to grow
(34:33):
And what can I do in order togrow?
Hopefully, you're in this typeof organization that will give
you that answer.
Here's what you can do in orderto grow.
But I do think that we need totake personal responsibility and
say here's what I think wouldhelp me to grow.
Yes, of course, a lot of thetimes and I had that experience
(34:53):
where people on my team come andsay, ok, i'm moving to the next
job, and I said, wait, wait, ididn't know that you're not
happy Once we started working on.
Ok, what are you missing?
What are you getting in the newworkplace?
I said, well, i can give that,i can do that.
And I had people on my team sayyou know what, so I'm staying.
But that conversation doesn'tneed to come only when you move
(35:16):
to the next job.
Constantly be responsible foryour personal growth and come to
your manager and say this iswhat I need, this is what I want
to do, this is how I can grow,and let them think as well, like
do you think you know?
ask a question, do you thinkthat you have other ideas for me
to grow here?
I would like to do more here.
I would like to be promoted.
(35:36):
And then I think that thatopenness is key to us being
happy in our career and feelingcontent and feeling that we
spend a good amount of time in agood place.
Daniela (35:48):
Yes, yes, thank you.
So you moved to a differentcompany, and then what happened?
What was?
Osnat (35:54):
that.
Well, the other organizationwas very, very different in a
way that I didn't come to managean existing team.
I actually needed to build ateam and needed to hire.
So it came with its newchallenges, which, you know, i
liked that I could do that.
I built a new team.
I built a new organization.
I had a different focus.
It was a different type ofcompany.
(36:16):
I love that too, and I thinkthat what is important really,
you know, regardless of what wedo in our career, is that we
constantly grow and weconstantly feel that it's a
place that nourishes us andhelps us, you know, be happy
generally, and so I'm constantlyin that pursuit of, okay, what
(36:36):
is that place that will use myskills for their growth and that
I can grow with it.
And that's why I actually thinkthat starting from scratch
needs to be a mindset and askill that we own, because I
ended my book updating of whatI'm doing today, but it's not
the last thing I'm going to do.
It's like I'm probably going tochange this as well.
Change is coming my way, so itdoesn't stop.
(37:00):
Of course, it's something thatwe constantly need to learn to
do and have the right mindset,the right network and the right
information and knowledge toallow ourselves to grow.
Daniela (37:11):
And one of the chapters of your book you write on how
to build your board.
Yes, You're a director ofdirectors, do you always had one
?
How did it start I?
Osnat (37:21):
always had someone the first person who was my mentor.
I met when I was a teenager andwe are still connected.
He actually wrote the forwardfor my book.
I felt that it would be a veryappropriate closure to me,
knowing him for so many years,and for him advising me about my
(37:44):
career and my starting fromscratch.
But I think surroundingourselves with people that and
we talked about it that knowsomething more than we do in
whatever aspect that we'retrying to close the gap on is
where we can grow, and to haveaccess to people that can
(38:05):
support our career growth andour personal growth is vital is
work as well.
It's something that youconstantly need to look for
those type of people.
You need to nourish thatrelationship, you need to learn
to give back and you need toalso learn when to activate them
(38:26):
.
So I did mention, for example,that one of my advisors is my
ex-boss, but I also know what hebrings to our conversation when
we connect, and what he bringsis brutally honest, actionable
feedback.
I have other people in myadvisory network that think I'm
(38:48):
the best thing they've everworked with, and it might be
true and it might not, butsometimes you also need that
When I'm down, i talk to thosepeople so that they prepare me
to talk to the other ones, and Ithink that really having these
different people in your networkthat you can activate, but also
knowing what you need, is thatkey to properly facing changes.
(39:14):
There are those people that areexperienced and are able to tell
you.
Here's what I would do whenthis comes my way, or here are
the things that I did whensomething similar to what you're
experiencing happened, and itallows you to learn from their
experience, versus experiencingeverything yourself, cause I
(39:34):
don't believe we need toexperience everything.
We can learn from otherpeople's failures, we can learn
from their advice, we can learnfrom their mistakes, and then we
can avoid them.
So it is important to surroundyourself with honest people that
are open to helping you learnfrom them.
Daniela (39:55):
And so how many people are on your board?
Osnat (39:58):
Well, i think it changes.
There are certain people thatare with me for many, many years
Probably about four of them arewith me for many years And
others I probably activate whenI need to.
Some of them might know, andprobably after reading my book,
they know exactly what theirrole in my life is.
I make sure that I give back.
(40:20):
I make sure that I stay intouch.
I make sure that I don'tcontact them only when I need
things.
It's a relationship.
It's something that you need tonurture, to growing your
network and the people that youknow.
But also come prepared.
Come prepared with what is yourask.
Don't waste people's time.
Be generous with yours.
Ask questions of how you canhelp as well and give back, and
(40:43):
that's how relationships arebeing built.
Daniela (40:46):
Yes, that's very well said, osna.
I believe too that it is arelationship that wouldn't have
to cultivate.
We have to give as much as wereceive.
What is the new you?
Is there such a thing Well?
Osnat (40:59):
until the next time, probably.
I constantly learn.
I constantly put time to bebigger and better.
I constantly invest in mypersonal growth and knowing new
things.
Work hard to be mentally strong, because when we face changes,
that's one of the things thatcan break you.
So I take care of myself and Imake sure to be in the right
(41:23):
mindset when I start working onthings.
We need to be kind to ourselvesVery much like we would give a
really good advice to a friend.
be our own advisors and takecare of our mind and our souls,
because the workplace is achallenging place And the
mindset.
Daniela (41:42):
what about your daughters?
Are you teaching them this?
Can you see that one daughterhas this mindset and the other
one has a different mindset?
Osnat (41:50):
So first, of all, having two very opinionated, strong
girls is one of the things I'mvery proud of.
They know me as a career womanand they know that career is
important to me and they knowthat, in addition to being their
mother and a wife and a friend,something that is very big in
(42:13):
my life is my career.
When I can I bring them to work.
They spend time working in mybusiness as well, like they.
For example, when I was sellingmy initial pre-order for my
book, they were wrapping thebooks and they came with me to
the post office and they werecarrying the books.
So they understand that work isnot just a paycheck.
(42:35):
They understand that there istime and investment and effort
that is put into it.
I know that.
They see it, i know that theyunderstand it And I hope that
they learn from me that thejourney has a lot of ups and
downs and it's not just it'sperfect and mom has a job.
You know, sometimes mom has baddays at work, but she prevails
(43:00):
and moves on and she still has ajob and that's an important
skill that they have.
Daniela (43:07):
I heard that one of the secrets of successful people is
that when they have a setbackthat it's okay to feel bad, How
fast do you overcome thatobstacle?
How fast do you bounce back?
Osnat (43:19):
Catherine Parsons.
She's quoted in my book.
She specifically talks aboutfailure being a stepping stone,
like just another stone on yourjourney.
So you skip that stone and youmove on, and as long as that's
part of your journey, it's good.
But don't let that journey stopthere, like don't be
discouraged.
Daniela (43:39):
That is so true.
We grew up learning thatmistakes are a bad thing, and,
in fact, they are learningopportunities and opportunities
for growth, and we need thosemoments.
Yes, what are you doing now,osnath?
So?
Osnat (43:54):
I'm doing so many things.
So I work as a chief productofficer at several ventures, so
I help launch products andchange strategies.
And I work in a differentcompany.
I actually do a whole reorg, arestructure for the group to
make them better, and so I dothat.
(44:15):
But I also do a lot of talksaround my book.
I do workshops with my book.
I'm working on a course rightnow.
Really I'm busy and I'm doingmultiple things And I think that
as long as that makes me happy,then this is what I'll do,
until one of them will not be asaccurate for me and I'll change
(44:36):
it, start from scratch and moveon.
Daniela (44:39):
Wonderful.
When did you decided to writethis book?
What happened?
Osnat (44:43):
Well, I think that a book was already in me and I know
enough authors today that I knowthat each one of them had a
book in them.
I didn't know what I'm going towrite about and this one was
born out of this mission ofbetter workplaces.
Frankly, it was my husband whosaid you know, you need to write
a book.
(45:03):
When will you write a book?
And me, coming from I mentionedwhen I was 14, I was writing
back then.
So writing is something Ialways done, even if it was like
a journaling or something thathelps me put my thoughts
together.
So writing is not somethingthat is hard for me, but I
definitely had my husband,serving as an advisor at that
(45:26):
time, saying you know, I thinkthat you need to put your theory
into writings.
You know, sometimes we need apush and I needed that.
Probably He is, I want to say,the last push.
I needed to create a book, butit was definitely in my mind for
many years before.
Daniela (45:42):
Great, you had a theory for many, many years, yeah.
Osnat (45:45):
Yeah, definitely, and also it's something that
happened to me multiple times,right Like I didn't come to it
after I've experienced changeonce, and the people stories
that are mentioned in my bookhave also went through multiple
changes in their lifetime, so Ithink that it merited, you know,
to be featured in a bookWonderful.
Daniela (46:07):
Wonderful.
You have the book and then nowyou're going to, you're working
towards an audible, an audibleand a course.
No, I remember the first timewe spoke you, also to be a
speaker.
Osnat (46:17):
I do talks at organizations before and after
they do restructure Andsometimes I do it kind of more
inspirational talks.
but I also work with teamsafter change to recover the team
, to build trust, to build thatcommunication, to teach them to
build personal board ofdirectors within the company.
Daniela (46:39):
So now you're not working for a company, you're
working on your own company.
Yeah, yeah, i am.
Osnat (46:44):
So now you are a consultant, a writer and author,
yes, a speaker, a mom, a coursedeveloper Yeah, having a very
rich career, and I think thatit's something that all of us
should have have multiple thingsthat we work on, because, you
know, when we have bad days inone side of the house, can
(47:08):
another place of the house beworking well.
Daniela (47:11):
That is a very good point.
Thank you, Osnat.
Thank you so much for all thesenuggets of wisdom and this
wonderful conversation.
Thank you, i hope you enjoyedtoday's episode.
I am Daniela and you werelistening to, because Everyone
Has a Story.
Please take five seconds rightnow and think of somebody in
(47:31):
your life that may enjoy whatyou just heard of, someone that
has a story to be shared andpreserved.
When you think of that person,shoot them a text with the link
of this podcast.
This would allow the ordinarymagic to go further.
Join me next time for anotherstory conversation.
Thank you for listening.
Hasta pronto.
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