July 27, 2025 • 29 mins
Welcome back to Part 2 of a fascinating kōrero with science journalist and author Bethany Brookshire. This one gets a smidge more controversial...
We talk about the animals we hate because they’re successful (looking at you, pigeons), the cultural weirdness of how we define pets vs pests, and how control - or our lack of it - shapes our relationship with the natural world.
Plus, there's a story involving Burmese pythons and a pair of trousers (you’ve been warned) and yes, we talk about cats in Aotearoa.
In this episode we cover:
- The rise and fall of the humble pigeon - and why we hate them now
- Cats and conservation in New Zealand (yes, it’s a problem)
- Pets vs pests - what’s really the difference?
- Why “invasive species” is more about us than the animals
- The real reason we hate common animals
- Empathy, ethics, and ice cream trucks on every corner
- And the man who hiked pantless through the Everglades with snakes in his trousers
For more about Bethany find her via her website
And don’t forget to head to our Instagram for a chance to win her book Pests: How Humans Create Animal Villains
You can get involved with the podcast online too of course.
Find our full podcast via the website here: https://www.nowthatwhatsicall.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:05):
You're a Kaitayaki and welcome to Now That's What I Call Green.
I'm your host, Brianne W, an environmentalist and
entrepreneur trying to get you as excited about our planet as I
am. I'm all about creating a
scientific approach to making the world a better place without
the judgement and making it fun.And of course, we will be
chatting about some of the most amazing creatures we share our
planet with. So if you are looking to
(00:26):
navigate through everything green or not so green, you have
come to the right place. Welcome back to Part 2 of my
interview with Bethany Brookshire.
She is so fascinating. We spoke for over an hour, so I
had to cut this into two parts. Our first part was about
Bethany's background, issues with science funding going on in
the USA, why we fear some animals and the complications of
(00:48):
rats and mice in labs. This time we're delving into
something a little bit more controversial, starting with
cats in Al Tierra. So let's get on with it.
Rats are clever. We know that well, I think it's
commonly known mice. Oh.
Yeah, rats are incredibly clever.
So yes and no. Define clever.
Oh. OK, well does he right?
(01:08):
Never got to talk to someone who's done philosophy.
Because like, you know, like mice are very good at being
mice. Yeah, OK.
Right. So by that definition, they are
extremely clever. Yeah.
In the same way that we're very good at being humans, Are mice
good at using tools? OK.
So the measurements we use, yeah.
So it's tool making, it's problem solving those sorts of
(01:28):
things, isn't it, that we use tomeasure intelligence, Yeah.
And, and I don't know that that's necessarily a correct
measure. I mean, you can't.
Intelligence is a human concept.But we do know, we've done
studies and they actually have found that mice that live near
humans, so domesticated mice, Musculus domesticus is the house
mouse, house mouse. And these are, you know, the
(01:50):
mice that live in your house. And they actually are better at
problem solving than mice that live in the country.
So like, a city mouse solves problems better than a country
mouse. And different species of mice
that have started living with humans actually solve problems
better the longer they've lived with humans.
So they've learned to live well with us.
(02:12):
So like, for example, they can like, take the lid off a Petri
dish to get to a treat. They can climb through the
window of a Lego house. They can, you know, like little
tasks. And they get better at it.
And it's not necessarily that they're getting smarter.
They're just adapting to living with us and becoming better at
living with us. And that's what I love about
animals that are pests, because these animals have learned to
(02:36):
live with us. They've learned to live very
close to us. And in so many cases, we just
hate it. They're so successful and we're
so mad. I remember sitting on the floor
a couple of years ago in a flat and the dog was sitting next to
me and we were watching. This is going to make me sound
just like I live in AI, don't need a vacuum.
The floor, which anyway I live with a dog.
(02:57):
There was no food on the floor right?
But we were sitting in the kitchen and looking in and just
watching a couple of mice run around.
It was adorable. They just, the way they
interacted with one another, it was just cute.
And I don't understand this depth of hatred, but it is
interesting because I've never thought about the associations
we have for them, which is exactly exactly your point.
(03:17):
And we should examine those sorts of things.
It's probably a stupid question,but what is the most unfairly
maligned animal? I mean, I, I would say they're
all pretty unfairly maligned, but my favorite, I would say as
an example is pigeons. Oh.
The pigeon, the abandonment thing is.
That real? Yeah.
I love that so well. And by love, I mean I don't
(03:38):
enjoy it. You know what I mean?
Intellectually. So yeah, it's interesting
because people see pigeons, especially in the US and in
Europe, people really dislike pigeons.
You know, they're gross, they carry disease, they are dirty,
they eat trash. And what's really fascinating
(03:59):
and what I ended up writing about was you can actually see
the decline of the pigeon in thehuman mind in New York City over
about 100 year period. So Colin Jerelmac, he's a
professor at NYU. He did his dissertation on this
and just tracking mentions of pigeons in the New York Times.
And when you start in like the 1860s, eighteen 70s, they're
(04:22):
described as beautiful, innocentpeople who kill.
Pigeons are monsters. Pigeons are beautiful and
innocent. And then by the 1970's, the
director of parks is calling them rats with wings and saying
you shouldn't feed them. And what I find really
fascinating about this is this is because we lost our use for
the pigeon. We hate the pigeon because we
(04:43):
can't use it anymore. The pigeons, I like to think of
them as like the outdated iPhoneof the animal world because we
domesticated them, I want to sayabout 6 to 8000 years ago for a
lot of things, right? So they provide delicious meat.
If you've never had squab, you should.
It's good. They are wonderful messengers,
(05:04):
right? Because they live in cliffs,
they go out, they feed themselves, they come home.
And luckily for us, buildings look like cliffs.
So you put your pigeon in a building and the pigeon is like,
oh, this is home now. I go out, I feed myself, I come
home. And this means you can send them
on messenger trips for very longdistances.
Pigeons are incredible enduranceFlyers.
(05:24):
They're very long distance, they're very fast, and they make
incredible messengers. The founder of Reuters actually
made his fortune flying hot stock tips from like Antwerp to
Bruges. And he beat the train by like 2
hours originally. That is very cool I.
Think it might have been Antwerpto Brussels.
Why is there not a Reuters Pigeon Foundation, you know?
(05:46):
That's a good question, but we also use them, for example for
fertiliser. Honestly I thought you meant
mulch them up just for a horrifying second.
That was where my brain went. No, it's the poo.
It's the poo. Yeah, the poo.
But yeah, there are pigeon coopsactually that date from ancient
Persia and they're these beautiful kind of bell shaped
things like inverted bells. And it's so the poo falls to the
(06:06):
bottom and you can just like, scoop it out and use it for
fertilizer or for saltpeter. Very important for artillery,
yes. Fascinating story, that.
Yeah, we had these wonderful uses for the pigeon until we
didn't, until we could make our own chemical fertilizer, until
we had the Telegraph, until we had chicken, until we had large
(06:27):
scale chicken production. People used to keep pigeons on
their roofs, especially urban people used to keep colonies of
pigeon on their roofs. And it was protein.
Did they? Used to be bigger.
No, the same size. OK, But I mean, you know,
whatever. Like we quail, don't we?
They're small, Yeah. What have you had?
Yeah, I've never understood. I've got loads of quail running
around and I'm thinking why would you bother?
(06:48):
But the rise of the modern kind of butchering system and the
modern kind of mass chicken mechanization made it cheaper.
And so over time people started buying chicken.
They started keeping fewer pigeons, and then pigeons became
an inconvenience and then they became dirty.
Because The thing is, you can let a pigeon go.
(07:09):
You can say I'm not going to keep it on my roof anymore.
But as we talked about, pigeons go out, they feed themselves and
they come home. Where's home?
Cities are home, and that's where they're going to come back
to. And now we hate them for it.
We hate them for the very thing we loved them for.
And I find that so tragic, you know, because they're lovely
birds. I don't know if you've ever
(07:29):
looked closely at a pigeon. I've got a couple that live
here, they go and have anything to do with me.
They live on the top of a very tall tree and I just see them
flying around and we largely ignore one another.
They've got these iridescent throats and people used to breed
fancy ones. Like, you know, Darwin was a
huge pigeon guy. I did not.
Oh God, There's a whole large section of On the Origin of
Species devoted to his pigeon keeping activities because
(07:52):
they're a great example of selection, domestication and
selection. You can select pigeons for all
these wild traits, right? There's some that have these,
like big massive ruffs of feathers or some that have
feathers between their toes. There's some that when you throw
them, they roll. They call them almond tumblers.
OK, Googling that. And so Darwin, like, submitted
(08:14):
this to his editor with this huge pigeon section, and his
editor actually got back to him.I was like, yeah.
So this whole evolution on natural selection, like, that's
going to be. I don't know, man.
Have you considered just doing abook on pigeons?
Oh. Right.
Because everyone's really into pigeons.
Yeah, OK. And thankfully, Darwin ignored
him. But.
Well, wasn't a popular theory atone point, was it?
(08:35):
Or largely within some groups still now.
But I mean, Nikola Tesla fell inlove with a pigeon.
An eccentric fellow. Yes, he used to say.
I love that pigeon as a man loves a woman, OK?
OK, this is fascinating. I had no idea we will be talking
so much about pigeons. Fascinating.
Love pigeons. I'm going to do so much Googling
after this conversation. I've only just realised that
I've been talking your era for about an hour, but I could do it
(08:56):
for another two. Well, we have Kiridou, which are
our wood pigeon. Which are these big?
I don't know, I think they weighabout 1.5 to 1.8 KG.
They're a big bird, right? They are beautiful, absolutely
beautiful, and everybody here reveals them.
I have heard the phrase rats on wings of bajillion times.
I've had fights, not physical but firm arguments because I get
(09:18):
too emotionally involved with things about pigeons and people
saying we should eradicate them.It's your fault they're here in
the 1st place. Not your fault, but you know.
Well, and what's interesting is for a long time there was no
real difference between a pigeonand a dove.
People didn't think about that. Different species, there are
different species of the columbiforms are vast and
varied. But for example, in the Epic of
(09:41):
Gilgamesh, which has a flood myth like the flood myth found
in the Bible, he uses a pigeon, not a dove.
The original translation of whatNoah used was pigeon, not dove.
When Jesus was born, his parentsgave sacrifices at the temple.
They sacrificed pigeons. Interesting.
Yeah, how we change things. You know, and people didn't say
(10:02):
there was a difference. And it was interesting.
I was actually in Prague a few months ago and I came across
this guy who was making his living with beautiful fancy
pigeons. And he would, like, pose them on
you and take pictures. And then he would be like, you
know, you got to pay me money for that classic anyway.
So, you know, I, I see him and we're talking and I was like,
these are beautiful pigeons. He goes, no, they are dubs.
(10:26):
He was very angry. And I was like, no, those are
fancy pigeons. That's literally the that's the
designation. They are fancy.
He was like, they are dubs. And he was like looking around
like at the other tourists beinglike, don't you dare call them
pigeons. Not like here.
Got to make money. OK, Well, that shows you the
power of a name versus the powerof the actuality of the animal.
(10:49):
That makes sense. You talk about pets and how they
become pets versus pests, right.Your difference of one letter.
How did we determine pets? And was it simply animals that
were useful and then have becomeless useful, but for some reason
we have kept them. So versus pigeons, which we
abandoned, but dogs we kept or cats actually, you know, we
(11:13):
don't use them as mouses, I would have thought as often, but
is that how they traverse, translate into the pet world?
You know, I think in some cases I would say that's the case.
There are people who still keep pet pigeons.
There are people who actually still race pigeons.
So to think about pigeons, for example, there are people who
(11:33):
have really conflicted feelings about dogs, especially stray
ones. So like for example, in kind of
the global N the first world countries, we do not have stray
dogs. There are not packs of stray
dogs. That's another thing, right?
Like you see a stray dog and youimmediately think that is
somebody's pet and it is homeless.
Yes, right. You see a stray cat, you think
(11:55):
that is a homeless pet. Yeah.
You do not think it is a pest. But in other countries, stray
dogs are a big public health threat.
And they're very scary. And they can be very scary.
They eat trash and they spread rabies, you know, and feral cats
also can be a big threat. So I think it's really
(12:16):
fascinating how the distinction between pet and pest in many
ways is one of culture and one of place.
Like many of those places that have feral dogs, like packs of
feral dogs, people also have petdogs, right?
The distinction is where the animal is and what you determine
its place is. And that's really funny to me
(12:39):
because who determines what an animal's place is?
Who determines where an animal belongs?
We do. We determine whether an animal
belongs near us or not. And sometimes that's because the
animal is useful to us, and sometimes it's just because we
like it. You know, a lot of people feed
backyard birds and stuff just because they like them.
(13:02):
Yeah, right. They're pretty.
And they are. They're pretty, you know, So
it's really fascinating to realize how much this is a
result of choices we kind of make as a culture.
And this is the argument that I suppose vegans, but not
exclusively, make about the whole idea of why do we eat some
animals and then cuddle others, right?
It is very much just what we saythey are.
(13:23):
There is no inherent reason for it beyond what it is that we
say. I have pet cows out there and
people are like, why don't you eat them?
Yeah, I know people who have petchickens and eat chicken, but
they wouldn't eat their pet chickens, yes.
Yeah, which is peculiar. I mean, I personally don't eat
meat. It's, I always hate saying that.
I feel like people think I'm going to judge them and but I I
(13:43):
do have people who come on to the lifestyle block where I've
got some Highlands and some chickens and all sorts of
animals running there and like, oh, do you eat them?
That is just so peculiar to me because it would be eating a
pet. But animals on a farm are viewed
completely differently and almost, I suppose I would view
them differently if they weren'tmine, even though I'm not
(14:05):
necessarily the person. Yeah, it is very.
You're talking about ethics, right?
Well, and also, I think some of it, and this is something I've
been thinking about recently, I haven't written about it yet,
but it's something I've been thinking about, is I think some
of this is related to our relationship with death in the
modern world. Like 100 years ago, OK, 1925 or
(14:27):
maybe 1900, maybe 1890, you would have been hard pressed to
find a person who had not seen something killed, a chicken, a
pig, a cow, a dog, something. You would be hard pressed to
find an adult who had not killedsomething, whether that was
hunting a domestic animal. That's something that you
(14:48):
learned how to do and you would eat those things.
Of course you would like. Why wouldn't you do that?
And it's only in the past century or so that we've been
able to divorce ourselves from our food so much that that's
become such a gut wrenching thing.
(15:09):
And I don't know what that means.
I don't know if that's good. I don't know if that's bad.
I don't know what that means. But I do think it's really
interesting because, you know, you do.
I do meet people. For example, in my work, I've
met a lot of people who raise livestock.
I've met a lot of people who hunt.
They absolutely eat what they kill.
Absolutely. And maybe it did have a name.
(15:31):
I think hunting is the most ethical way to go about it.
Right. But it's a very different
relationship with animals that Ithink many people who no longer
kind of live close to their foodhave less experience with now,
right? And so it's just it's really
interesting to think about. Yes it is and we are now so far
(15:51):
removed from where things come from that sometimes kids don't
even know anymore. Right.
I remember watching the TV show with Jamie Oliver about 450
years ago and he held up a potato in front of school kids
in England and they had no idea what it is.
And England lives on chips, let's be honest.
But they didn't associate one with the other, and we are that
far removed from things we don'tgrasp the concept of.
(16:12):
Death. I'm reading a book about this
ages ago. Death is catastrophically
horrific, and it's not good, right?
But it 100 years ago, as you say, we had more reasonableness
about it. That's not really the right
word, but you know. I mean, I think we had more
familiarity with it. That's a better word.
Yes. And I don't know if that's good.
(16:32):
I don't know if that's good. I don't know if that's bad.
I cannot say. No one last question I wanted
because I don't want to take outyour whole after the evening.
Actually the pest designation. Are all pests introduced species
in a place they shouldn't be or do you have pest animals that
are just a lot of them in their native environment?
I guess I'm looking at the conservation thing here.
Yeah. No, a good question.
(16:53):
I would say we're seeing something of a shift in that
designation. I am actually seeing people
don't use the word pest much anymore but they use the word
invasive species a lot. Invasive is very visceral.
Yeah, and it's really interesting because I look at
invasive species and I'm like, this is, you know, from a
(17:16):
conservation standpoint, I absolutely understand.
But also this animal is considered invasive because you
brought it somewhere and you expected it to die and it
didn't. It succeeded, and now you're
mad. That's.
Lovely. Which I find interesting.
Or you, you brought something toa place and you expected it to
remain within our your, your control, right?
(17:38):
Often it's. You expect it to remain in your
control and it doesn't control. Is a good word.
Yeah, and I've got a whole section in the book on control
and how much it shapes our relationship with the natural
world. We really want control over the
natural world and we are real angry when we don't have it.
We've never had it. That was a total no.
It's a lie. It's all a lie.
(18:00):
But yeah, it's, it's interestingto think about.
And there are some animals, for example, that are moving due to
climate change, right? And they're moving into new
habitats. So for example, there's a
salamander. Like the Lone Star tech?
Yeah, we got two. Yeah.
Yeah. And Lord knows nobody likes
those. But like, for example,
salamanders are moving north nowbecause of climate change in the
(18:22):
eastern US and we call them climate refugees.
But when we've moved the animal and it's succeeded, we call it
an invasive species. The animal is still moving, it's
still going into a new ecology, it's still changing things.
But only one of those changes iseven morally neutral to
positive. And that's an interesting thing
(18:42):
to think about. And I don't know that that's
right and I don't know that it'swrong.
To be clear, I've looked at it from like the regular
conservation angle. I've looked at it from the
compassionate conservation angle.
And like every one of these has their flaws and their positive
sides. And I, I do not know which is
better, but it's very interesting to think about how
we think about these animals. And I mean, again, it all comes
(19:03):
down to with invasive species, just like with pests, where we
think an animal belongs. Belongs.
It is all the language of control, isn't it?
It? Really is, Yeah.
It's fascinating to think about.We just don't see ourselves as
part of. It yeah.
And I talked to a lot of people who are, you know, members of
Indigenous groups and I, they were really generous with their
time and we talked about that. And traditionally they do not.
(19:25):
Many of them do not see their relationships with their
environments as being as controlling.
So is that predominantly a Western?
I wouldn't necessarily call it western.
I would call it agricultural andpastoral in many ways, but most
particularly with intensive monoculture, particularly
(19:46):
intensive monoculture because there's many, many ways to do
agriculture, right? And the monoculture of like I
have this field of wheat, I havethis flock of sheep, right, is a
different way of doing agriculture from many indigenous
ways of doing agriculture who have just as much agriculture
and just as much success with it.
So it's, it's a different way ofdoing it.
And I find those different ways of doing agriculture come with
(20:10):
very different modes of thinking.
It's. So interesting.
I love thinking about thinking, which sounds very self
indulgent, but thinking about why you think things about
things, which isn't basically what this entire conversation
has been about and why we designate certain animals,
certain things. I honestly, I could talk to you
for ages, but it's quite a little bit longer than I
promised you it would be. So I have two more questions for
(20:32):
you. Do you have any more fascinating
stories like the Reuters pigeon story and do you, if so, well,
you do obviously your books fullof them.
What would be your favorite one?It's tough.
I have a lot of really. So I met a man who kept 2
Burmese pythons in his pants. I was 3/3.
Didn't think you were going to say.
(20:53):
Pants, Pants like trousers. But they've, like Burmese
pythons, are not small. No, they're not.
Geez. OK.
He was not wearing the pants at the time.
Oh, OK. I feel be there marginally.
So his name is Mike Cove. To be clear, he is a
mammalogist. He is actually at North Carolina
State University and the North Carolina Museum of Natural
Sciences. Really nice guy.
Talked to him again just the other day.
(21:13):
And Mike was hiking in the Everglades in like I want to say
2006. And he's doing the solo hike,
like a multi day backpacking trip in the Everglades.
And he's hiking along and he sees the snake and he's like,
wow, that's a really pretty snake.
And he's like, wait, that's a, that's a Burmese Python that
shouldn't be here. They're wreaking havoc, aren't
they? Being a scientist, he catches it
(21:35):
and then he's sitting there holding the snake and he's like,
I don't have a bag. So he removes his trousers, ties
the ends and puts the snake in there.
And then as he's hiking, he finds two more snakes and he
adds them to his bag. And by the way, this is an
overnight camping trip. So he comes back, cancel us to
(21:56):
turn in his Backcountry permit at the next day at the National
Park station. And he says, hey, I've got this
bag of snakes back here. What do I do with these snakes?
Like these are invasive. And he says the lady just looks
at him and goes, I got a better question for you dear.
What happened to your pants? He did a 2 day hiking trip in
his underwear with a bag full ofpythons.
(22:18):
So yeah, that's one of my favorites, I would say.
OK, I what did they do with them?
Or do I not want to know? I probably don't want to know.
Oh, you don't. Want to know?
You don't want to. OK, Yeah, they should ship them
to me. New Zealand would get really mad
about it, but I would be OK withhaving a house full of dermies
pythons. I promise you I wouldn't open my
door. Yeah, I'll don't need pythons.
And it doesn't matter if you would open your door or not.
(22:38):
It doesn't matter. Pythons will get out.
They'll find anything. Yeah.
I need to move to Australia. I love the idea of waking up one
day and finding us. I know all the Australians.
You wouldn't. They're all venomous.
OK. I appreciate, yes, but beautiful
nonetheless. I say venomous, yes.
But are they aggressive? Very true, 'cause if they're not
aggressive. Most snakes aren't.
(23:00):
I know you get anecdotal evidence that says like an
eastern brown is particularly aggressive, but is it true?
Or is it just anecdotal? I don't know.
I mean, some are more aggressivethan others, but most of them
know. I mean, like, it's exhausting.
Like why would they wanna do? That no, they're not gonna eat
you. There's no benefit to them that
at all. But also, if you've been bitten
by a snake, I imagine it's a somewhat traumatic experience.
(23:20):
My last question for you, which I ask everybody and refuse to
prepare people for, if you were a supreme overlord and you had
the power to do anything you liked, what would be the first
thing you would do to make the world a better place?
There's. So many options.
That's why a lot of people just go with a joke answer.
Understandable. I mean, I don't know.
The problem is that, like, thesedays, I've gotten not great at
telling jokes. Yeah, I I would say part of me
(23:45):
is like, solve climate change, which I mean, yeah.
But The thing is, I think the long term thing that solves
climate change is giving everybody a really big dose of
empathy. Oh, I thought.
We were going to say education. No, I'd give everybody a big
dose of empathy. I like that.
I find it very hard to believe. Perhaps this is very naive of
(24:08):
me, for people to make these decisions and to change all
these things that are going on in the world and to do all these
things that are going on in the world that we're all aware of.
I don't know why I'm stepping around saying what they are, I
guess 'cause there's so many. But I find it very hard to
understand that, you know what their motivation is because it
can't be bad, because people aren't evil.
And then you sort of come to theconclusion that actually there
(24:30):
is no good motivation and there are just people out there that
don't have empathy, which is such a weird concept.
On a more jokey answer, I think we could all use like an ice
cream truck on every corner withfree ice cream.
That would be pretty great. That would improve a lot of
people's lives, I think. I.
Nearly fell over when I found out that Al Tierra eats the most
ice cream per capita in the world.
Really. Yeah.
By like a significant margin, bizarrely.
(24:51):
Y'all out there living your bestlife?
Yeah. That's awesome.
Bizarre, but cool. Obviously we're the ice cream
Olympians. We don't need to worry about
other gold medals. That's your fact for the day.
That was, yeah, fascinating and probably a direction I didn't
expect it to be. And I'm so fascinated about
pigeons and sort of depressed. I might start a pigeon rescue.
Sorry, yeah. Thank you for that.
(25:12):
But yeah, Oh my God, we didn't talk about raccoons.
Are they in your? Book next time.
Love raccoons they are. Yes, OK, good, because I've
cried the first and only time I've seen one.
Really. You don't not like them?
Oh no, I do like them. I just like crying, you know?
I mean, I do understand it, though.
(25:33):
And part of the thing that makesthings a pest to us is that
they're very common. Yes, we're too used to them.
You see tourists that come to New Zealand and take photos of
sheep and people mock them and I'm like, well, they've never
seen them before, give them a break.
Right. But Oh no, they've seen sheep.
We've seen sheep. We're not, we're not heathens.
No, it is usually a particular group.
It's quite often Chinese tourists who live in the likes
(25:55):
of Shanghai and have never really eaten to.
Be fair, they've probably never seen a real sheep.
Yes, that is widget. Yes.
And we shouldn't mock people forsaying new things.
But yeah, I always adored raccoons and the first time I
saw 1 wandering through in Florida somewhere in like a
marshy thing and I saw snakes there.
It was just the best day of my life, actually.
Well, someday I will visit New Zealand.
I've always wanted to go. Yes, well, and you do let me
know and I will come and show you our really boring wildlife.
(26:16):
We don't have anything fun. Kiraro is quite fun.
You. Have that giant green flightless
bird that humped that guy's head.
Kakapo. Yes, everybody loves the
kakapoor 'cause. It humped that guy's head that
one time. Yeah, that that man is famous
for that thing only, right? Oh.
Yeah, that poor. Guy.
It's the camera guy or sound guy.
It was the camera guy. It was the camera guy.
(26:37):
He was very patient, bless his heart.
It's. Getting all bloody on the back
of his neck. Oh, poor guy.
Thank you. You're amazing.
I really appreciate your time. Great.
Well, thank you so much. It was a pleasure.
Well. I don't know about you, but I
feel a little bit depressed after that conversation.
It was absolutely fascinating and very insightful.
But the things we've done to animals, man, how quickly we
(26:58):
discard things when they are of no use to us.
But I think she has a real pointwhen she says so much of this is
due to the idea of control and rather than being a part of our
natural environment, our appreciation of the natural
world is very much just whether we can control it.
The story about the pigeons is the worst.
(27:19):
The cat conversation is very relevant for Altero.
Of course. I did write an article about
that on Sub Stack if you want togo and read some details.
But cats kill up to 100 million birds every single year here,
and fewer cats are about 70% of that.
But domestic cats are estimated to cause up 20 to 30% of that.
I know a lot of people believe that cats are happier if they go
(27:42):
wandering. But I actually saw a TikTok
video yesterday where somebody is approaching it from a very
different angle and pointing outthat actually as a cat owner, as
a cat carer, you are supposed tobe considering your cat safety
and health. And by leaving them out to
wonder, you're not doing that because you really are leaving
them unprotected in the wild without any understanding of
(28:02):
things like cars. And I thought that was a
different way of looking at it. I am of the belief whether this
is an unpopular take or not, Butif you have cats, you shouldn't
let them out to run. And people will tell me that
cats need to roam. Well, why are dogs any
different? You know, if you're going to
have cats, if you're going to bea responsible cat owner, I
believe that you should take steps to ensure they don't kill
wildlife. The people usually respond
(28:24):
without. But you had cats.
I don't. I just think that they do untold
damage. And because just as Bethany says
we like cats, we don't try and do anything about it.
Anyway, food for thought. I don't want a whole bunch of
cat activists attacking me. Thank you for joining me.
Hope you enjoyed it. Bethany's amazing.
Go and follow her on various social media platforms and I
will see you next time. Yeah, order and there you go.
(28:47):
I hope you learned something andrealise that being green isn't
about everything in your pantry matching with those silly glass
jars or living in a commune. If that's your jam, fabulous.
But sustainability at its part is just using what you need.
If you enjoyed this episode, please don't keep it to yourself
and feel free to drop me a rating and hit the subscribe
button Kyoda and I'll see you next week.
You're a Kaitayaki and welcome to Now That's What I Call Green.
I'm your host, Brianne W, an environmentalist and
entrepreneur trying to get you as excited about our planet as I
am. I'm all about creating a
scientific approach to making the world a better place without
the judgement and making it fun.And of course, we will be
chatting about some of the most amazing creatures we share our
planet with. So if you are looking to
(00:26):
navigate through everything green or not so green, you have
come to the right place. Welcome back to Part 2 of my
interview with Bethany Brookshire.
She is so fascinating. We spoke for over an hour, so I
had to cut this into two parts. Our first part was about
Bethany's background, issues with science funding going on in
the USA, why we fear some animals and the complications of
(00:48):
rats and mice in labs. This time we're delving into
something a little bit more controversial, starting with
cats in Al Tierra. So let's get on with it.
Rats are clever. We know that well, I think it's
commonly known mice. Oh.
Yeah, rats are incredibly clever.
So yes and no. Define clever.
Oh. OK, well does he right?
(01:08):
Never got to talk to someone who's done philosophy.
Because like, you know, like mice are very good at being
mice. Yeah, OK.
Right. So by that definition, they are
extremely clever. Yeah.
In the same way that we're very good at being humans, Are mice
good at using tools? OK.
So the measurements we use, yeah.
So it's tool making, it's problem solving those sorts of
(01:28):
things, isn't it, that we use tomeasure intelligence, Yeah.
And, and I don't know that that's necessarily a correct
measure. I mean, you can't.
Intelligence is a human concept.But we do know, we've done
studies and they actually have found that mice that live near
humans, so domesticated mice, Musculus domesticus is the house
mouse, house mouse. And these are, you know, the
(01:50):
mice that live in your house. And they actually are better at
problem solving than mice that live in the country.
So like, a city mouse solves problems better than a country
mouse. And different species of mice
that have started living with humans actually solve problems
better the longer they've lived with humans.
So they've learned to live well with us.
(02:12):
So like, for example, they can like, take the lid off a Petri
dish to get to a treat. They can climb through the
window of a Lego house. They can, you know, like little
tasks. And they get better at it.
And it's not necessarily that they're getting smarter.
They're just adapting to living with us and becoming better at
living with us. And that's what I love about
animals that are pests, because these animals have learned to
(02:36):
live with us. They've learned to live very
close to us. And in so many cases, we just
hate it. They're so successful and we're
so mad. I remember sitting on the floor
a couple of years ago in a flat and the dog was sitting next to
me and we were watching. This is going to make me sound
just like I live in AI, don't need a vacuum.
The floor, which anyway I live with a dog.
(02:57):
There was no food on the floor right?
But we were sitting in the kitchen and looking in and just
watching a couple of mice run around.
It was adorable. They just, the way they
interacted with one another, it was just cute.
And I don't understand this depth of hatred, but it is
interesting because I've never thought about the associations
we have for them, which is exactly exactly your point.
(03:17):
And we should examine those sorts of things.
It's probably a stupid question,but what is the most unfairly
maligned animal? I mean, I, I would say they're
all pretty unfairly maligned, but my favorite, I would say as
an example is pigeons. Oh.
The pigeon, the abandonment thing is.
That real? Yeah.
I love that so well. And by love, I mean I don't
(03:38):
enjoy it. You know what I mean?
Intellectually. So yeah, it's interesting
because people see pigeons, especially in the US and in
Europe, people really dislike pigeons.
You know, they're gross, they carry disease, they are dirty,
they eat trash. And what's really fascinating
(03:59):
and what I ended up writing about was you can actually see
the decline of the pigeon in thehuman mind in New York City over
about 100 year period. So Colin Jerelmac, he's a
professor at NYU. He did his dissertation on this
and just tracking mentions of pigeons in the New York Times.
And when you start in like the 1860s, eighteen 70s, they're
(04:22):
described as beautiful, innocentpeople who kill.
Pigeons are monsters. Pigeons are beautiful and
innocent. And then by the 1970's, the
director of parks is calling them rats with wings and saying
you shouldn't feed them. And what I find really
fascinating about this is this is because we lost our use for
the pigeon. We hate the pigeon because we
(04:43):
can't use it anymore. The pigeons, I like to think of
them as like the outdated iPhoneof the animal world because we
domesticated them, I want to sayabout 6 to 8000 years ago for a
lot of things, right? So they provide delicious meat.
If you've never had squab, you should.
It's good. They are wonderful messengers,
(05:04):
right? Because they live in cliffs,
they go out, they feed themselves, they come home.
And luckily for us, buildings look like cliffs.
So you put your pigeon in a building and the pigeon is like,
oh, this is home now. I go out, I feed myself, I come
home. And this means you can send them
on messenger trips for very longdistances.
Pigeons are incredible enduranceFlyers.
(05:24):
They're very long distance, they're very fast, and they make
incredible messengers. The founder of Reuters actually
made his fortune flying hot stock tips from like Antwerp to
Bruges. And he beat the train by like 2
hours originally. That is very cool I.
Think it might have been Antwerpto Brussels.
Why is there not a Reuters Pigeon Foundation, you know?
(05:46):
That's a good question, but we also use them, for example for
fertiliser. Honestly I thought you meant
mulch them up just for a horrifying second.
That was where my brain went. No, it's the poo.
It's the poo. Yeah, the poo.
But yeah, there are pigeon coopsactually that date from ancient
Persia and they're these beautiful kind of bell shaped
things like inverted bells. And it's so the poo falls to the
(06:06):
bottom and you can just like, scoop it out and use it for
fertilizer or for saltpeter. Very important for artillery,
yes. Fascinating story, that.
Yeah, we had these wonderful uses for the pigeon until we
didn't, until we could make our own chemical fertilizer, until
we had the Telegraph, until we had chicken, until we had large
(06:27):
scale chicken production. People used to keep pigeons on
their roofs, especially urban people used to keep colonies of
pigeon on their roofs. And it was protein.
Did they? Used to be bigger.
No, the same size. OK, But I mean, you know,
whatever. Like we quail, don't we?
They're small, Yeah. What have you had?
Yeah, I've never understood. I've got loads of quail running
around and I'm thinking why would you bother?
(06:48):
But the rise of the modern kind of butchering system and the
modern kind of mass chicken mechanization made it cheaper.
And so over time people started buying chicken.
They started keeping fewer pigeons, and then pigeons became
an inconvenience and then they became dirty.
Because The thing is, you can let a pigeon go.
(07:09):
You can say I'm not going to keep it on my roof anymore.
But as we talked about, pigeons go out, they feed themselves and
they come home. Where's home?
Cities are home, and that's where they're going to come back
to. And now we hate them for it.
We hate them for the very thing we loved them for.
And I find that so tragic, you know, because they're lovely
birds. I don't know if you've ever
(07:29):
looked closely at a pigeon. I've got a couple that live
here, they go and have anything to do with me.
They live on the top of a very tall tree and I just see them
flying around and we largely ignore one another.
They've got these iridescent throats and people used to breed
fancy ones. Like, you know, Darwin was a
huge pigeon guy. I did not.
Oh God, There's a whole large section of On the Origin of
Species devoted to his pigeon keeping activities because
(07:52):
they're a great example of selection, domestication and
selection. You can select pigeons for all
these wild traits, right? There's some that have these,
like big massive ruffs of feathers or some that have
feathers between their toes. There's some that when you throw
them, they roll. They call them almond tumblers.
OK, Googling that. And so Darwin, like, submitted
(08:14):
this to his editor with this huge pigeon section, and his
editor actually got back to him.I was like, yeah.
So this whole evolution on natural selection, like, that's
going to be. I don't know, man.
Have you considered just doing abook on pigeons?
Oh. Right.
Because everyone's really into pigeons.
Yeah, OK. And thankfully, Darwin ignored
him. But.
Well, wasn't a popular theory atone point, was it?
(08:35):
Or largely within some groups still now.
But I mean, Nikola Tesla fell inlove with a pigeon.
An eccentric fellow. Yes, he used to say.
I love that pigeon as a man loves a woman, OK?
OK, this is fascinating. I had no idea we will be talking
so much about pigeons. Fascinating.
Love pigeons. I'm going to do so much Googling
after this conversation. I've only just realised that
I've been talking your era for about an hour, but I could do it
(08:56):
for another two. Well, we have Kiridou, which are
our wood pigeon. Which are these big?
I don't know, I think they weighabout 1.5 to 1.8 KG.
They're a big bird, right? They are beautiful, absolutely
beautiful, and everybody here reveals them.
I have heard the phrase rats on wings of bajillion times.
I've had fights, not physical but firm arguments because I get
(09:18):
too emotionally involved with things about pigeons and people
saying we should eradicate them.It's your fault they're here in
the 1st place. Not your fault, but you know.
Well, and what's interesting is for a long time there was no
real difference between a pigeonand a dove.
People didn't think about that. Different species, there are
different species of the columbiforms are vast and
varied. But for example, in the Epic of
(09:41):
Gilgamesh, which has a flood myth like the flood myth found
in the Bible, he uses a pigeon, not a dove.
The original translation of whatNoah used was pigeon, not dove.
When Jesus was born, his parentsgave sacrifices at the temple.
They sacrificed pigeons. Interesting.
Yeah, how we change things. You know, and people didn't say
(10:02):
there was a difference. And it was interesting.
I was actually in Prague a few months ago and I came across
this guy who was making his living with beautiful fancy
pigeons. And he would, like, pose them on
you and take pictures. And then he would be like, you
know, you got to pay me money for that classic anyway.
So, you know, I, I see him and we're talking and I was like,
these are beautiful pigeons. He goes, no, they are dubs.
(10:26):
He was very angry. And I was like, no, those are
fancy pigeons. That's literally the that's the
designation. They are fancy.
He was like, they are dubs. And he was like looking around
like at the other tourists beinglike, don't you dare call them
pigeons. Not like here.
Got to make money. OK, Well, that shows you the
power of a name versus the powerof the actuality of the animal.
(10:49):
That makes sense. You talk about pets and how they
become pets versus pests, right.Your difference of one letter.
How did we determine pets? And was it simply animals that
were useful and then have becomeless useful, but for some reason
we have kept them. So versus pigeons, which we
abandoned, but dogs we kept or cats actually, you know, we
(11:13):
don't use them as mouses, I would have thought as often, but
is that how they traverse, translate into the pet world?
You know, I think in some cases I would say that's the case.
There are people who still keep pet pigeons.
There are people who actually still race pigeons.
So to think about pigeons, for example, there are people who
(11:33):
have really conflicted feelings about dogs, especially stray
ones. So like for example, in kind of
the global N the first world countries, we do not have stray
dogs. There are not packs of stray
dogs. That's another thing, right?
Like you see a stray dog and youimmediately think that is
somebody's pet and it is homeless.
Yes, right. You see a stray cat, you think
(11:55):
that is a homeless pet. Yeah.
You do not think it is a pest. But in other countries, stray
dogs are a big public health threat.
And they're very scary. And they can be very scary.
They eat trash and they spread rabies, you know, and feral cats
also can be a big threat. So I think it's really
(12:16):
fascinating how the distinction between pet and pest in many
ways is one of culture and one of place.
Like many of those places that have feral dogs, like packs of
feral dogs, people also have petdogs, right?
The distinction is where the animal is and what you determine
its place is. And that's really funny to me
(12:39):
because who determines what an animal's place is?
Who determines where an animal belongs?
We do. We determine whether an animal
belongs near us or not. And sometimes that's because the
animal is useful to us, and sometimes it's just because we
like it. You know, a lot of people feed
backyard birds and stuff just because they like them.
(13:02):
Yeah, right. They're pretty.
And they are. They're pretty, you know, So
it's really fascinating to realize how much this is a
result of choices we kind of make as a culture.
And this is the argument that I suppose vegans, but not
exclusively, make about the whole idea of why do we eat some
animals and then cuddle others, right?
It is very much just what we saythey are.
(13:23):
There is no inherent reason for it beyond what it is that we
say. I have pet cows out there and
people are like, why don't you eat them?
Yeah, I know people who have petchickens and eat chicken, but
they wouldn't eat their pet chickens, yes.
Yeah, which is peculiar. I mean, I personally don't eat
meat. It's, I always hate saying that.
I feel like people think I'm going to judge them and but I I
(13:43):
do have people who come on to the lifestyle block where I've
got some Highlands and some chickens and all sorts of
animals running there and like, oh, do you eat them?
That is just so peculiar to me because it would be eating a
pet. But animals on a farm are viewed
completely differently and almost, I suppose I would view
them differently if they weren'tmine, even though I'm not
(14:05):
necessarily the person. Yeah, it is very.
You're talking about ethics, right?
Well, and also, I think some of it, and this is something I've
been thinking about recently, I haven't written about it yet,
but it's something I've been thinking about, is I think some
of this is related to our relationship with death in the
modern world. Like 100 years ago, OK, 1925 or
(14:27):
maybe 1900, maybe 1890, you would have been hard pressed to
find a person who had not seen something killed, a chicken, a
pig, a cow, a dog, something. You would be hard pressed to
find an adult who had not killedsomething, whether that was
hunting a domestic animal. That's something that you
(14:48):
learned how to do and you would eat those things.
Of course you would like. Why wouldn't you do that?
And it's only in the past century or so that we've been
able to divorce ourselves from our food so much that that's
become such a gut wrenching thing.
(15:09):
And I don't know what that means.
I don't know if that's good. I don't know if that's bad.
I don't know what that means. But I do think it's really
interesting because, you know, you do.
I do meet people. For example, in my work, I've
met a lot of people who raise livestock.
I've met a lot of people who hunt.
They absolutely eat what they kill.
Absolutely. And maybe it did have a name.
(15:31):
I think hunting is the most ethical way to go about it.
Right. But it's a very different
relationship with animals that Ithink many people who no longer
kind of live close to their foodhave less experience with now,
right? And so it's just it's really
interesting to think about. Yes it is and we are now so far
(15:51):
removed from where things come from that sometimes kids don't
even know anymore. Right.
I remember watching the TV show with Jamie Oliver about 450
years ago and he held up a potato in front of school kids
in England and they had no idea what it is.
And England lives on chips, let's be honest.
But they didn't associate one with the other, and we are that
far removed from things we don'tgrasp the concept of.
(16:12):
Death. I'm reading a book about this
ages ago. Death is catastrophically
horrific, and it's not good, right?
But it 100 years ago, as you say, we had more reasonableness
about it. That's not really the right
word, but you know. I mean, I think we had more
familiarity with it. That's a better word.
Yes. And I don't know if that's good.
(16:32):
I don't know if that's good. I don't know if that's bad.
I cannot say. No one last question I wanted
because I don't want to take outyour whole after the evening.
Actually the pest designation. Are all pests introduced species
in a place they shouldn't be or do you have pest animals that
are just a lot of them in their native environment?
I guess I'm looking at the conservation thing here.
Yeah. No, a good question.
(16:53):
I would say we're seeing something of a shift in that
designation. I am actually seeing people
don't use the word pest much anymore but they use the word
invasive species a lot. Invasive is very visceral.
Yeah, and it's really interesting because I look at
invasive species and I'm like, this is, you know, from a
(17:16):
conservation standpoint, I absolutely understand.
But also this animal is considered invasive because you
brought it somewhere and you expected it to die and it
didn't. It succeeded, and now you're
mad. That's.
Lovely. Which I find interesting.
Or you, you brought something toa place and you expected it to
remain within our your, your control, right?
(17:38):
Often it's. You expect it to remain in your
control and it doesn't control. Is a good word.
Yeah, and I've got a whole section in the book on control
and how much it shapes our relationship with the natural
world. We really want control over the
natural world and we are real angry when we don't have it.
We've never had it. That was a total no.
It's a lie. It's all a lie.
(18:00):
But yeah, it's, it's interestingto think about.
And there are some animals, for example, that are moving due to
climate change, right? And they're moving into new
habitats. So for example, there's a
salamander. Like the Lone Star tech?
Yeah, we got two. Yeah.
Yeah. And Lord knows nobody likes
those. But like, for example,
salamanders are moving north nowbecause of climate change in the
(18:22):
eastern US and we call them climate refugees.
But when we've moved the animal and it's succeeded, we call it
an invasive species. The animal is still moving, it's
still going into a new ecology, it's still changing things.
But only one of those changes iseven morally neutral to
positive. And that's an interesting thing
(18:42):
to think about. And I don't know that that's
right and I don't know that it'swrong.
To be clear, I've looked at it from like the regular
conservation angle. I've looked at it from the
compassionate conservation angle.
And like every one of these has their flaws and their positive
sides. And I, I do not know which is
better, but it's very interesting to think about how
we think about these animals. And I mean, again, it all comes
(19:03):
down to with invasive species, just like with pests, where we
think an animal belongs. Belongs.
It is all the language of control, isn't it?
It? Really is, Yeah.
It's fascinating to think about.We just don't see ourselves as
part of. It yeah.
And I talked to a lot of people who are, you know, members of
Indigenous groups and I, they were really generous with their
time and we talked about that. And traditionally they do not.
(19:25):
Many of them do not see their relationships with their
environments as being as controlling.
So is that predominantly a Western?
I wouldn't necessarily call it western.
I would call it agricultural andpastoral in many ways, but most
particularly with intensive monoculture, particularly
(19:46):
intensive monoculture because there's many, many ways to do
agriculture, right? And the monoculture of like I
have this field of wheat, I havethis flock of sheep, right, is a
different way of doing agriculture from many indigenous
ways of doing agriculture who have just as much agriculture
and just as much success with it.
So it's, it's a different way ofdoing it.
And I find those different ways of doing agriculture come with
(20:10):
very different modes of thinking.
It's. So interesting.
I love thinking about thinking, which sounds very self
indulgent, but thinking about why you think things about
things, which isn't basically what this entire conversation
has been about and why we designate certain animals,
certain things. I honestly, I could talk to you
for ages, but it's quite a little bit longer than I
promised you it would be. So I have two more questions for
(20:32):
you. Do you have any more fascinating
stories like the Reuters pigeon story and do you, if so, well,
you do obviously your books fullof them.
What would be your favorite one?It's tough.
I have a lot of really. So I met a man who kept 2
Burmese pythons in his pants. I was 3/3.
Didn't think you were going to say.
(20:53):
Pants, Pants like trousers. But they've, like Burmese
pythons, are not small. No, they're not.
Geez. OK.
He was not wearing the pants at the time.
Oh, OK. I feel be there marginally.
So his name is Mike Cove. To be clear, he is a
mammalogist. He is actually at North Carolina
State University and the North Carolina Museum of Natural
Sciences. Really nice guy.
Talked to him again just the other day.
(21:13):
And Mike was hiking in the Everglades in like I want to say
2006. And he's doing the solo hike,
like a multi day backpacking trip in the Everglades.
And he's hiking along and he sees the snake and he's like,
wow, that's a really pretty snake.
And he's like, wait, that's a, that's a Burmese Python that
shouldn't be here. They're wreaking havoc, aren't
they? Being a scientist, he catches it
(21:35):
and then he's sitting there holding the snake and he's like,
I don't have a bag. So he removes his trousers, ties
the ends and puts the snake in there.
And then as he's hiking, he finds two more snakes and he
adds them to his bag. And by the way, this is an
overnight camping trip. So he comes back, cancel us to
(21:56):
turn in his Backcountry permit at the next day at the National
Park station. And he says, hey, I've got this
bag of snakes back here. What do I do with these snakes?
Like these are invasive. And he says the lady just looks
at him and goes, I got a better question for you dear.
What happened to your pants? He did a 2 day hiking trip in
his underwear with a bag full ofpythons.
(22:18):
So yeah, that's one of my favorites, I would say.
OK, I what did they do with them?
Or do I not want to know? I probably don't want to know.
Oh, you don't. Want to know?
You don't want to. OK, Yeah, they should ship them
to me. New Zealand would get really mad
about it, but I would be OK withhaving a house full of dermies
pythons. I promise you I wouldn't open my
door. Yeah, I'll don't need pythons.
And it doesn't matter if you would open your door or not.
(22:38):
It doesn't matter. Pythons will get out.
They'll find anything. Yeah.
I need to move to Australia. I love the idea of waking up one
day and finding us. I know all the Australians.
You wouldn't. They're all venomous.
OK. I appreciate, yes, but beautiful
nonetheless. I say venomous, yes.
But are they aggressive? Very true, 'cause if they're not
aggressive. Most snakes aren't.
(23:00):
I know you get anecdotal evidence that says like an
eastern brown is particularly aggressive, but is it true?
Or is it just anecdotal? I don't know.
I mean, some are more aggressivethan others, but most of them
know. I mean, like, it's exhausting.
Like why would they wanna do? That no, they're not gonna eat
you. There's no benefit to them that
at all. But also, if you've been bitten
by a snake, I imagine it's a somewhat traumatic experience.
(23:20):
My last question for you, which I ask everybody and refuse to
prepare people for, if you were a supreme overlord and you had
the power to do anything you liked, what would be the first
thing you would do to make the world a better place?
There's. So many options.
That's why a lot of people just go with a joke answer.
Understandable. I mean, I don't know.
The problem is that, like, thesedays, I've gotten not great at
telling jokes. Yeah, I I would say part of me
(23:45):
is like, solve climate change, which I mean, yeah.
But The thing is, I think the long term thing that solves
climate change is giving everybody a really big dose of
empathy. Oh, I thought.
We were going to say education. No, I'd give everybody a big
dose of empathy. I like that.
I find it very hard to believe. Perhaps this is very naive of
(24:08):
me, for people to make these decisions and to change all
these things that are going on in the world and to do all these
things that are going on in the world that we're all aware of.
I don't know why I'm stepping around saying what they are, I
guess 'cause there's so many. But I find it very hard to
understand that, you know what their motivation is because it
can't be bad, because people aren't evil.
And then you sort of come to theconclusion that actually there
(24:30):
is no good motivation and there are just people out there that
don't have empathy, which is such a weird concept.
On a more jokey answer, I think we could all use like an ice
cream truck on every corner withfree ice cream.
That would be pretty great. That would improve a lot of
people's lives, I think. I.
Nearly fell over when I found out that Al Tierra eats the most
ice cream per capita in the world.
Really. Yeah.
By like a significant margin, bizarrely.
(24:51):
Y'all out there living your bestlife?
Yeah. That's awesome.
Bizarre, but cool. Obviously we're the ice cream
Olympians. We don't need to worry about
other gold medals. That's your fact for the day.
That was, yeah, fascinating and probably a direction I didn't
expect it to be. And I'm so fascinated about
pigeons and sort of depressed. I might start a pigeon rescue.
Sorry, yeah. Thank you for that.
(25:12):
But yeah, Oh my God, we didn't talk about raccoons.
Are they in your? Book next time.
Love raccoons they are. Yes, OK, good, because I've
cried the first and only time I've seen one.
Really. You don't not like them?
Oh no, I do like them. I just like crying, you know?
I mean, I do understand it, though.
(25:33):
And part of the thing that makesthings a pest to us is that
they're very common. Yes, we're too used to them.
You see tourists that come to New Zealand and take photos of
sheep and people mock them and I'm like, well, they've never
seen them before, give them a break.
Right. But Oh no, they've seen sheep.
We've seen sheep. We're not, we're not heathens.
No, it is usually a particular group.
It's quite often Chinese tourists who live in the likes
(25:55):
of Shanghai and have never really eaten to.
Be fair, they've probably never seen a real sheep.
Yes, that is widget. Yes.
And we shouldn't mock people forsaying new things.
But yeah, I always adored raccoons and the first time I
saw 1 wandering through in Florida somewhere in like a
marshy thing and I saw snakes there.
It was just the best day of my life, actually.
Well, someday I will visit New Zealand.
I've always wanted to go. Yes, well, and you do let me
know and I will come and show you our really boring wildlife.
(26:16):
We don't have anything fun. Kiraro is quite fun.
You. Have that giant green flightless
bird that humped that guy's head.
Kakapo. Yes, everybody loves the
kakapoor 'cause. It humped that guy's head that
one time. Yeah, that that man is famous
for that thing only, right? Oh.
Yeah, that poor. Guy.
It's the camera guy or sound guy.
It was the camera guy. It was the camera guy.
(26:37):
He was very patient, bless his heart.
It's. Getting all bloody on the back
of his neck. Oh, poor guy.
Thank you. You're amazing.
I really appreciate your time. Great.
Well, thank you so much. It was a pleasure.
Well. I don't know about you, but I
feel a little bit depressed after that conversation.
It was absolutely fascinating and very insightful.
But the things we've done to animals, man, how quickly we
(26:58):
discard things when they are of no use to us.
But I think she has a real pointwhen she says so much of this is
due to the idea of control and rather than being a part of our
natural environment, our appreciation of the natural
world is very much just whether we can control it.
The story about the pigeons is the worst.
(27:19):
The cat conversation is very relevant for Altero.
Of course. I did write an article about
that on Sub Stack if you want togo and read some details.
But cats kill up to 100 million birds every single year here,
and fewer cats are about 70% of that.
But domestic cats are estimated to cause up 20 to 30% of that.
I know a lot of people believe that cats are happier if they go
(27:42):
wandering. But I actually saw a TikTok
video yesterday where somebody is approaching it from a very
different angle and pointing outthat actually as a cat owner, as
a cat carer, you are supposed tobe considering your cat safety
and health. And by leaving them out to
wonder, you're not doing that because you really are leaving
them unprotected in the wild without any understanding of
(28:02):
things like cars. And I thought that was a
different way of looking at it. I am of the belief whether this
is an unpopular take or not, Butif you have cats, you shouldn't
let them out to run. And people will tell me that
cats need to roam. Well, why are dogs any
different? You know, if you're going to
have cats, if you're going to bea responsible cat owner, I
believe that you should take steps to ensure they don't kill
wildlife. The people usually respond
(28:24):
without. But you had cats.
I don't. I just think that they do untold
damage. And because just as Bethany says
we like cats, we don't try and do anything about it.
Anyway, food for thought. I don't want a whole bunch of
cat activists attacking me. Thank you for joining me.
Hope you enjoyed it. Bethany's amazing.
Go and follow her on various social media platforms and I
will see you next time. Yeah, order and there you go.
(28:47):
I hope you learned something andrealise that being green isn't
about everything in your pantry matching with those silly glass
jars or living in a commune. If that's your jam, fabulous.
But sustainability at its part is just using what you need.
If you enjoyed this episode, please don't keep it to yourself
and feel free to drop me a rating and hit the subscribe
button Kyoda and I'll see you next week.
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