July 1, 2025 • 11 mins
About half of the oxygen that you are breathing right now is made in the ocean. And last year, scientists found that some of it is made three kilometres down in total darkness by microbes that live on the seabed.
We had no idea about any of this before then, and now, next month, the United Nations International Seabed Authority is deciding whether they will let industrial rigs strip minerals out of the seabed. But is that a good idea when it turns out we know so little about it?
Surely there are smarter options, right? And what do we even need those minerals for anyway? Well, that’s what we’ll be discussing in this episode.
In this episode let's talk about:
- What Dark Oxygen is and why we should be worried
- What is found in the deep sea
- What deep sea mining actually is and why we do it
- The dangers of deep sea mining
- Why there is a need for the metals gained from deep sea mining
- Why everyone is panicking about it
- Who wants to deep sea mine and who doesn't
- Trump’s executive order that is allowing fast-tracking of deep sea mining applications
- Other countries’ responses to deep sea mining
- What you can do about it
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Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:05):
Kyoto Kaitaki and welcome to NowThat's what I Call Green.
I'm your host, Brianne W, an environmentalist and
entrepreneur trying to get you as excited about our planet as I
am. I'm all about creating a
scientific approach to making the world a better place without
the judgement and making it fun.And of course, we'll be chatting
about some of the most amazing creatures we share our planet
with. So if you are looking to
(00:26):
navigate through everything green or not so green, you have
come to the right place. About half of the oxygen that
you are breathing right now is made in the ocean.
And last year, scientists found that some of it is made 3
kilometers down in total darkness by microbes that live
on the seabed. We have no idea about any of
this before then. Now, next month, the United
(00:47):
Nations International Seabed Authority, who's going to call
it ISA from now on, they are deciding whether they will let
industrial rigs strip minerals out of the seabed.
But is that a good idea? When it turns out we know so
little about it, surely there are smarter options.
What do we even need those minerals for anyway?
Well, let's talk about it. You may remember from last year,
(01:09):
people got very excited about something called dark oxygen.
This is that scientific discovery I'm talking about.
Scientists found micro is about 3 kilometers under the water in
a place called the Clarion Clippeton zone, which is between
Hawaii and Mexico, roughly on the equator.
And they were just quietly cranking out oxygen in total
darkness. The discovery was absolutely
brand new to science and people get very excited, but it goes to
(01:31):
show how much we don't know about how our planet operates
now. It's scattered around all those
microbes down there. In fact, what they are living on
are millions of something callednodules.
They look like rocks, I suppose,but they are full of metals and
minerals like nickel, cobalt, manganese, copper, things that
we use to make stuff. And of course, because we always
want more stuff, we want more ofthose minerals.
(01:52):
We use some things like batteries and jet engines,
appliances, medical implants, smartphones, wind turbines, and
actually some of the stainless steel that holds this whole
world together. But these nodules are the only
substrate, or real estate, if you like, that these microbes
have to grow on. And they take millions and
millions of years to form. They provide the surface for an
(02:13):
ecosystem that we didn't know anything about but could be
literally vital for life on Earth.
We don't know. And we don't know what other
species are down there either. I mean, recent studies have
discovered species like ghostly glass corals, different species
of sea cucumber, the cutest animal on Earth.
Of course, technically no. Known as the Dumbo octopus and
down in the area there are at least 2 deep sea coral species
that aren't found anywhere else that we know about.
(02:36):
Most of these pieces are endemicto this area, so once they're
scraped clean they are gone forever.
Mining plans basically involve sucking up the top 10
centimeters or so of the sea bed, shredding everything that
lives on it or in it, and blasting the leftovers back into
the water. There have been lots of tank
tests that show that plume of dust that floats away can extend
(02:57):
for hundreds of kilometers and can blanket corals and other
ecosystems. You know, smothers, sponges and
filter feeders and possibly moreof those newly found oxygen
making machines. Now, nodules aren't the only
prize on the ocean floor of course.
There are things called cobalt rich crusts, which are exactly
what they sound like. It's a very thin rock hard skin
(03:17):
of more minerals like cobalt, nickel and platinum.
And they cover some undersea mountains.
They grow about 1mm every million or so years.
And then there are the undersea chimneys that you've probably
seen in David Attenborough filmsand they're formed by
hydrothermal vents where hot water comes out of the Earth's
crust and they are absolutely packed, the copper and gold and
zinc, again, things that are very helpful for us.
(03:38):
But mining would completely destroy those structures that
species like Yeti crabs and giant tube worms and scaly foot
snails and other extremophiles live in.
And whilst those species may nothave the nicest sounding names,
I will give you that they still deserve our protection.
Not to mention, again, we don't know much about them yet.
And as a last point, Disturbing the Abyss, which is a great
(03:59):
movie, recommended actually. It also risks releasing some of
the 92 billion tons of carbon that is buried in that seabed.
Carbon we really, really don't need in our atmosphere.
So I think you'll probably agreethat it's just a terrible idea
all around. And just in case you think I'm
exaggerating because I appreciate I'm a dramatic
person, we have a real world time machine to look back at
(04:20):
actually, because back in 1970, the US hold a giant sled called
the Benthic coupler across the Black Plateau, which is off the
coast of Florida. And they wanted to see how easy
it was to scrape out those manganese nodules.
A research crews went back last year and found the same track
still sitting there, parallel trenches, 2 meters wide, no
(04:41):
growth, no nothing. It hadn't recovered at all.
And that is more than 5 decades later.
So when seabed mining companies say don't worry, the seabed will
bounce back, well, will it now of course, we do need these
metals. And people will say, Oh, well,
if you want the green transition, we need to go down
and get those nodules. And this is where the argument
gets a bit meaty because pro mining lobbyists talk about the
(05:02):
critical minerals gap specifically for the green
transition. They wave around Charles.
They talk about Dyer nickel and cobalt shortages, which are of
course used in EV batteries or wind turbines.
But what they forget to mention quite often is that those very
same metals feed military supplychain.
So GT engine, super alloys, armour piercing rounds, missile
guidance systems, I'm going to call that the red transition is
(05:26):
in the transition to red mist. You know, maybe that's too dark,
but battery chemistry is actually moving away from a lot
of these minerals, right? So Tesla has already shifted a
lot of it's standard range cars to lithium ion phosphate cells,
which don't need cobalt and use far less nickel.
Chinese manufacturers are rolling out battery packs that
dodge all of them all together. And the EU already has some
legislation in place requiring that manufacturers have already
(05:46):
recycled nickel and cobalt into their battery packs by 2031.
For as many dire reports out there saying that we don't have
enough minerals, there are equalnumber of reports for saying
that we do because land reservesaren't running out either.
There was a report done by the International Energy Agency just
last year, which stated that existing mines plus some of the
projects that are currently under construction, they can
meet projected demands quite easily through 2040.
(06:07):
And that's what they're considering that we're
definitely going to get better at recycling and we're
definitely going to have innovation in chemistry.
So why is everybody panicking? Well, as usual, follow the
money, right? You've got these deep sea mining
startups that are talking about feeding the EV boom and that
they're here for the green transition.
But then if you look at the shareholder deck, it's like
Northrop Gummon and Raytheon. A quick Google, he'll tell you
(06:29):
who those companies are. One of those start-ups, the
metals Company, which they really could have tried a wee
bit harder with that name. They talk about contracts they
have with the US Department of Defence to secure strategic
supply. Who cares about sea cucumbers or
you know, oxygen when you could have more missiles?
Data and research shows that we do not need to mine the abyss to
fund the green transition. Then you've got the other
(06:49):
argument where people are sayingthat it's actually better for
the environment than mining land.
This is repeated a lot, and yet there's absolutely no evidence
for this at all. Just a couple of years ago there
was a life cycle that analysis done, and it showed that
harvesting one ton of copper from nodules under the sea would
wipe out about 6 square meters of sea floor fauna, versus just
0.1 square meters of habitat loss per ton of copper for a
(07:12):
regulated landmine. You can revitate a quarry, but
you can't replant a coral garden.
But what about the economy? Surely it's good for the
economy, right? Well, for the companies, sure,
but for the countries whose seabed we're talking about, not
so much. People say that these royalties
will lift these countries out ofpoverty.
Data says otherwise. There's some modelling done for
Narrows Nori D project, right? And it showed that the
(07:33):
government take about 1.6% of GDP at this peak production.
But because they are the sponsoring state, they'll be
legally on the hook for an estimated $10 billion in worst
case scenario liability, which is more than their entire annual
economy. So who wants to mine and who
doesn't? Well, surprisingly, there's
quite a few Pacific that are on board of this now.
We're the Cook Islands Tonner. They are fronting some of the
(07:54):
first commercial bids in that Clarion Clifton zone.
Norway is keen to chip in some of its sulfide mines on its own
continental shelf. And then you've got big state
giants from the likes of Russia and China, Japan and South
Korea, who already have exploration permits.
You probably saw that Trump assigned another executive order
only a couple of months ago, that last fast tracking of deep
sea mining applications, despitehim himself actually putting a
(08:17):
moratorium on seabed mining until 2030.
Here in Altairo, we, the public are against it.
But of course, with our change in government, it looks like we
might reverse that opinion because in the words of our new
resource minister Shane Jones, it was a decision rooted in
shrill environmental alarmism. And the debate here is actually
getting quite heated. It was just last week the head
(08:38):
of Trans Tasman Resources, whichis a firm that wants to suck up
about 50 million tonnes of iron sands off the Taranaki coast.
They told media last week that local EUI will have to deal with
them whether they like it or notif his consents come through.
That tone deaf line landed like a lead balloon.
But it just goes to show how quickly treaty rights can be
sidelined when people smell money, right?
Australia is waiting on a science review.
(08:59):
Canada has banned seabed mining in its own waters, but it hasn't
nailed down a position for international borders here,
which is very NIMBY of them. And then on the other side, you
have countries. They're saying we should
probably learn a bit more beforewe go and mine it.
So you've got Fiji, Vanuatu, Palau, Samoa, French Polynesia,
Tuvalu, Chile, Costa Rica, Germany, Spain, Portugal, the
(09:21):
European Parliament and more than 40 NGOs.
There's definitely more in the leads Way column.
This all comes to a head at the ISA Council in just over a week.
36 countries vote and a 2/3 majority will carry it.
So now I hope you agree that this probably isn't the best
study we've ever had. So what can you do about it?
Well, there are some petitions out there you can sign, put
together by the likes of WWE from Greenpeace.
It's always worth signing them. Politicians do pay attention to
(09:43):
public voices, in fact it's the only way some of them actually
ever change your opinion. At the end of the day, they are
supposed to be our voice rights,but it's always worth making
your voice heard. Secondly, nudge the brands who
are likely to purchase these minerals.
So that's companies like Apple or Samsung or Tesla, BMW, so on.
Most companies that make things with a battery should have a
policy on where the battery materials come from.
(10:03):
Don't forget, consumer power is the single most powerful thing
we have, even if it doesn't feellike it.
We have microbes making oxygen in the dark that we didn't even
know existed. There are species down there
that we probably haven't even found yet, and there's more
carbon locked away down there than every range forest
combined. So digging it up really doesn't
sound like a smart decision. Knowledge is power, so spread
the word. Next, like we have a positive
(10:25):
look at politics for you. It's called positivity in
politics. I don't know, I've probably come
up with a better title before then, but it is with a very dear
friend who has a way of looking at politics and geopolitics
globally that might just make you feel a little bit better.
Matua, see you next time. And there you go, I hope you
learned something and realise that being green isn't about
(10:45):
everything in your pantry matching with those silly glass
jars or living in a commune. If that's your jam, fabulous.
But sustainability at its part is just using what you need.
If you enjoyed this episode, please don't keep it to yourself
and feel free to drop me a rating and hit the subscribe
button Kyoda and I'll see you next week.
Kyoto Kaitaki and welcome to NowThat's what I Call Green.
I'm your host, Brianne W, an environmentalist and
entrepreneur trying to get you as excited about our planet as I
am. I'm all about creating a
scientific approach to making the world a better place without
the judgement and making it fun.And of course, we'll be chatting
about some of the most amazing creatures we share our planet
with. So if you are looking to
(00:26):
navigate through everything green or not so green, you have
come to the right place. About half of the oxygen that
you are breathing right now is made in the ocean.
And last year, scientists found that some of it is made 3
kilometers down in total darkness by microbes that live
on the seabed. We have no idea about any of
this before then. Now, next month, the United
(00:47):
Nations International Seabed Authority, who's going to call
it ISA from now on, they are deciding whether they will let
industrial rigs strip minerals out of the seabed.
But is that a good idea? When it turns out we know so
little about it, surely there are smarter options.
What do we even need those minerals for anyway?
Well, let's talk about it. You may remember from last year,
(01:09):
people got very excited about something called dark oxygen.
This is that scientific discovery I'm talking about.
Scientists found micro is about 3 kilometers under the water in
a place called the Clarion Clippeton zone, which is between
Hawaii and Mexico, roughly on the equator.
And they were just quietly cranking out oxygen in total
darkness. The discovery was absolutely
brand new to science and people get very excited, but it goes to
(01:31):
show how much we don't know about how our planet operates
now. It's scattered around all those
microbes down there. In fact, what they are living on
are millions of something callednodules.
They look like rocks, I suppose,but they are full of metals and
minerals like nickel, cobalt, manganese, copper, things that
we use to make stuff. And of course, because we always
want more stuff, we want more ofthose minerals.
(01:52):
We use some things like batteries and jet engines,
appliances, medical implants, smartphones, wind turbines, and
actually some of the stainless steel that holds this whole
world together. But these nodules are the only
substrate, or real estate, if you like, that these microbes
have to grow on. And they take millions and
millions of years to form. They provide the surface for an
(02:13):
ecosystem that we didn't know anything about but could be
literally vital for life on Earth.
We don't know. And we don't know what other
species are down there either. I mean, recent studies have
discovered species like ghostly glass corals, different species
of sea cucumber, the cutest animal on Earth.
Of course, technically no. Known as the Dumbo octopus and
down in the area there are at least 2 deep sea coral species
that aren't found anywhere else that we know about.
(02:36):
Most of these pieces are endemicto this area, so once they're
scraped clean they are gone forever.
Mining plans basically involve sucking up the top 10
centimeters or so of the sea bed, shredding everything that
lives on it or in it, and blasting the leftovers back into
the water. There have been lots of tank
tests that show that plume of dust that floats away can extend
(02:57):
for hundreds of kilometers and can blanket corals and other
ecosystems. You know, smothers, sponges and
filter feeders and possibly moreof those newly found oxygen
making machines. Now, nodules aren't the only
prize on the ocean floor of course.
There are things called cobalt rich crusts, which are exactly
what they sound like. It's a very thin rock hard skin
(03:17):
of more minerals like cobalt, nickel and platinum.
And they cover some undersea mountains.
They grow about 1mm every million or so years.
And then there are the undersea chimneys that you've probably
seen in David Attenborough filmsand they're formed by
hydrothermal vents where hot water comes out of the Earth's
crust and they are absolutely packed, the copper and gold and
zinc, again, things that are very helpful for us.
(03:38):
But mining would completely destroy those structures that
species like Yeti crabs and giant tube worms and scaly foot
snails and other extremophiles live in.
And whilst those species may nothave the nicest sounding names,
I will give you that they still deserve our protection.
Not to mention, again, we don't know much about them yet.
And as a last point, Disturbing the Abyss, which is a great
(03:59):
movie, recommended actually. It also risks releasing some of
the 92 billion tons of carbon that is buried in that seabed.
Carbon we really, really don't need in our atmosphere.
So I think you'll probably agreethat it's just a terrible idea
all around. And just in case you think I'm
exaggerating because I appreciate I'm a dramatic
person, we have a real world time machine to look back at
(04:20):
actually, because back in 1970, the US hold a giant sled called
the Benthic coupler across the Black Plateau, which is off the
coast of Florida. And they wanted to see how easy
it was to scrape out those manganese nodules.
A research crews went back last year and found the same track
still sitting there, parallel trenches, 2 meters wide, no
(04:41):
growth, no nothing. It hadn't recovered at all.
And that is more than 5 decades later.
So when seabed mining companies say don't worry, the seabed will
bounce back, well, will it now of course, we do need these
metals. And people will say, Oh, well,
if you want the green transition, we need to go down
and get those nodules. And this is where the argument
gets a bit meaty because pro mining lobbyists talk about the
(05:02):
critical minerals gap specifically for the green
transition. They wave around Charles.
They talk about Dyer nickel and cobalt shortages, which are of
course used in EV batteries or wind turbines.
But what they forget to mention quite often is that those very
same metals feed military supplychain.
So GT engine, super alloys, armour piercing rounds, missile
guidance systems, I'm going to call that the red transition is
(05:26):
in the transition to red mist. You know, maybe that's too dark,
but battery chemistry is actually moving away from a lot
of these minerals, right? So Tesla has already shifted a
lot of it's standard range cars to lithium ion phosphate cells,
which don't need cobalt and use far less nickel.
Chinese manufacturers are rolling out battery packs that
dodge all of them all together. And the EU already has some
legislation in place requiring that manufacturers have already
(05:46):
recycled nickel and cobalt into their battery packs by 2031.
For as many dire reports out there saying that we don't have
enough minerals, there are equalnumber of reports for saying
that we do because land reservesaren't running out either.
There was a report done by the International Energy Agency just
last year, which stated that existing mines plus some of the
projects that are currently under construction, they can
meet projected demands quite easily through 2040.
(06:07):
And that's what they're considering that we're
definitely going to get better at recycling and we're
definitely going to have innovation in chemistry.
So why is everybody panicking? Well, as usual, follow the
money, right? You've got these deep sea mining
startups that are talking about feeding the EV boom and that
they're here for the green transition.
But then if you look at the shareholder deck, it's like
Northrop Gummon and Raytheon. A quick Google, he'll tell you
(06:29):
who those companies are. One of those start-ups, the
metals Company, which they really could have tried a wee
bit harder with that name. They talk about contracts they
have with the US Department of Defence to secure strategic
supply. Who cares about sea cucumbers or
you know, oxygen when you could have more missiles?
Data and research shows that we do not need to mine the abyss to
fund the green transition. Then you've got the other
(06:49):
argument where people are sayingthat it's actually better for
the environment than mining land.
This is repeated a lot, and yet there's absolutely no evidence
for this at all. Just a couple of years ago there
was a life cycle that analysis done, and it showed that
harvesting one ton of copper from nodules under the sea would
wipe out about 6 square meters of sea floor fauna, versus just
0.1 square meters of habitat loss per ton of copper for a
(07:12):
regulated landmine. You can revitate a quarry, but
you can't replant a coral garden.
But what about the economy? Surely it's good for the
economy, right? Well, for the companies, sure,
but for the countries whose seabed we're talking about, not
so much. People say that these royalties
will lift these countries out ofpoverty.
Data says otherwise. There's some modelling done for
Narrows Nori D project, right? And it showed that the
(07:33):
government take about 1.6% of GDP at this peak production.
But because they are the sponsoring state, they'll be
legally on the hook for an estimated $10 billion in worst
case scenario liability, which is more than their entire annual
economy. So who wants to mine and who
doesn't? Well, surprisingly, there's
quite a few Pacific that are on board of this now.
We're the Cook Islands Tonner. They are fronting some of the
(07:54):
first commercial bids in that Clarion Clifton zone.
Norway is keen to chip in some of its sulfide mines on its own
continental shelf. And then you've got big state
giants from the likes of Russia and China, Japan and South
Korea, who already have exploration permits.
You probably saw that Trump assigned another executive order
only a couple of months ago, that last fast tracking of deep
sea mining applications, despitehim himself actually putting a
(08:17):
moratorium on seabed mining until 2030.
Here in Altairo, we, the public are against it.
But of course, with our change in government, it looks like we
might reverse that opinion because in the words of our new
resource minister Shane Jones, it was a decision rooted in
shrill environmental alarmism. And the debate here is actually
getting quite heated. It was just last week the head
(08:38):
of Trans Tasman Resources, whichis a firm that wants to suck up
about 50 million tonnes of iron sands off the Taranaki coast.
They told media last week that local EUI will have to deal with
them whether they like it or notif his consents come through.
That tone deaf line landed like a lead balloon.
But it just goes to show how quickly treaty rights can be
sidelined when people smell money, right?
Australia is waiting on a science review.
(08:59):
Canada has banned seabed mining in its own waters, but it hasn't
nailed down a position for international borders here,
which is very NIMBY of them. And then on the other side, you
have countries. They're saying we should
probably learn a bit more beforewe go and mine it.
So you've got Fiji, Vanuatu, Palau, Samoa, French Polynesia,
Tuvalu, Chile, Costa Rica, Germany, Spain, Portugal, the
(09:21):
European Parliament and more than 40 NGOs.
There's definitely more in the leads Way column.
This all comes to a head at the ISA Council in just over a week.
36 countries vote and a 2/3 majority will carry it.
So now I hope you agree that this probably isn't the best
study we've ever had. So what can you do about it?
Well, there are some petitions out there you can sign, put
together by the likes of WWE from Greenpeace.
It's always worth signing them. Politicians do pay attention to
(09:43):
public voices, in fact it's the only way some of them actually
ever change your opinion. At the end of the day, they are
supposed to be our voice rights,but it's always worth making
your voice heard. Secondly, nudge the brands who
are likely to purchase these minerals.
So that's companies like Apple or Samsung or Tesla, BMW, so on.
Most companies that make things with a battery should have a
policy on where the battery materials come from.
(10:03):
Don't forget, consumer power is the single most powerful thing
we have, even if it doesn't feellike it.
We have microbes making oxygen in the dark that we didn't even
know existed. There are species down there
that we probably haven't even found yet, and there's more
carbon locked away down there than every range forest
combined. So digging it up really doesn't
sound like a smart decision. Knowledge is power, so spread
the word. Next, like we have a positive
(10:25):
look at politics for you. It's called positivity in
politics. I don't know, I've probably come
up with a better title before then, but it is with a very dear
friend who has a way of looking at politics and geopolitics
globally that might just make you feel a little bit better.
Matua, see you next time. And there you go, I hope you
learned something and realise that being green isn't about
(10:45):
everything in your pantry matching with those silly glass
jars or living in a commune. If that's your jam, fabulous.
But sustainability at its part is just using what you need.
If you enjoyed this episode, please don't keep it to yourself
and feel free to drop me a rating and hit the subscribe
button Kyoda and I'll see you next week.
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