March 5, 2025 • 34 mins
Dr. Fred Moss is a mental health advocate/psychiatrist serving in many capacities: keynote speaker, psychiatry expert witness, podcaster, mental health coach, and teacher. A desire to help people be real and heard has been the driving force leading him to multiple settings and roles as a psychiatrist over the years and compelling him to continually look for better, more effective ways to provide the highest quality care to align people with their most authentic self to deliver into an eagerly awaiting world. He is the amazing creator of Welcome To Humanity, The True Voice Course, Healing the Healer, and Global Madness.
As the founder of the Welcome to Humanity movement, and the True Voice Mastermind and methodology, Dr. Fred now finds himself making the difference he came here to make. His years in the community, where he has been a physician to over 40,000 patients, and his storied and adventurous life traveling around the world has left him uniquely qualified to remind us of what we already know. Communication is where love arises from, and speaking the truth and listening authentically is the source of that love.
He is the author of "Creative 8 - Healing Through Creativity and Self-Expression" and "Find Your True Voice!". He has written many articles for Psychology Today. Also, he has won an award for the best essay at the 2019 Conference for Global Transformation, titled "Global Madness, What Must Happen to Unite.”
Fred has also led many courses in True Voice Podcasting, taking people from zipped-lip to podcaster in 12 short weeks. His most recent course is titled "True Voice Course" and is intended to help people who know they have something to say, to rediscover what that really is and get it out into the world. His most recent work is centered around the healing of the healers, aptly named Healing the Healer. The brilliant virtual course reminds the transitioning healers of the world that are released from their official position of a doctor, nurse, social worker, or clinician of any type, which may not be the trauma that they are likely feeling. In fact, it may be an opportunity to reset, rediscover and reenter the healing world in a new capacity, profoundly more aligned with themselves than they have ever been. A mastermind of like-minded individuals is also offered to capitalize on the essential power of community to assist when making significant paradigmatic shifts.
Hosted Podcasts:
The Healthy Healer
[IN]Sanity Podcast with Dr. Fred & Sam
Welcome To Humanity
https://drfred360.com https://welcometohumanity.net
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
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Hey, everybody. Thanks for joining Pioneer Knowledge Services
because you need to know. Today, we're gonna
really highlight light some of the things that
are under the hood of human behavior and
how that shows up in organizations
(01:03):
of any size.
It really is the elements of who we
are. Enjoy.
Hello. Hello. Hello. Hello, everyone. Edwin, it's so
great to see you again. Thanks for having
me on your show. It's just a a
blast to be here. Total honor, privilege, and,
really, I'm just so excited to have this
(01:25):
conversation finally with you. My name is Doctor.
Fred, Fred Moss or Fred, and some people
still call me Doctor. Moss. And I live
in Grass Valley, California.
That's up here North Of Auburn in between
Sacramento and Reno in the
West side of the foothills
of the Sierra Nevada. It's very beautiful, very
eclectic, very rustic area. I live here with
(01:47):
my incredibly beautiful wife and the gift from
God that she is, as well as three
other gifts that we have been gifted called
felines. We have Desposito,
Winston, and Valentino who homeschool us every single
day. The most interesting thing near me, probably
the Sierra Nevadas. And, you know, this is
Gold Country. So this is where gold was
(02:07):
actually mined.
And you can pine for gold even now
and get little tidbits of it. I live
in Gold Country and it's no doubt that's
part of the rustic, eclectic, beautiful nature of
what it means to live in Grass Valley
in Nevada City.
The thing that I have learned over time
by living here, that people are really, really,
(02:28):
really interesting.
And especially the people that are off the
beaten trail, as if there is such thing
as a beaten trail.
I've always been interested in people who are
off the beaten trail. It's been something I've
been seeking and searching,
exploring, and digging into since as far back
as I can remember, just riding my bike
into the parts of the neighborhood
(02:48):
that my parents told me not to go
in so that I can meet interesting people.
I absolutely love working in the mental health
field, but not because of the way the
mental health field is already designed,
but because of the impact I can make
to actually shift some of the paradigms in
the mental health field, given the position that
I've been blessed with
(03:09):
as a veteran psychiatrist, someone who's been playing
in this field for forty five solid years,
as well as the level of capacity to
communicate
using podcasts and using books and using blogs
and using keynote speaking,
as well as my job as a frontline
doctor,
allows me to really get the message across
to people that this psychiatric industrial complex doesn't
(03:32):
work the way it's supposed to. And maybe
you don't need to be going there if
you feel uncomfortable.
Maybe there's nothing wrong with you in the
first place, even if you know that there
is. Because
that knowing that there is something wrong with
us is so universal that it's actually a
sign of being normal. I'm gonna go back
to that childhood memory of riding the bikes
where your parents said don't go. Did you
(03:54):
find your authentic self at a very young
age? That's a really interesting question. I think
the answer to that is actually no.
I don't think I was really looking for
myself. I was kinda looking like who out
there could represent something that I could become.
Okay. What is it that I needed to
learn in order to step into who I
was to become? By being somewhat, I would
(04:15):
think, maybe someone who might label it defiant
of your parents' wishes
that you were being authentic
because you just did what you felt driven
to do. Well, there was some authenticity in
my search, and there was some unstoppability.
You know? There was some tenacity for sure
as I got on my Stingray and then
my bigger twin and then put my thumb
(04:37):
out on the road and really got into
those neighborhoods. Like, don't cross nine mile. Okay,
mom. And, you know, I was on eight
mile before by the end of the day.
So there's a there's an adventuresome
spirit in Yeah. Where did that come from?
Where did that seed come from that made
you the adventurer at such a young age?
I think I was born, you know, I
was born to be a healer. I was
(04:57):
born into a family that already had a
fair amount of conflict, chaos, and disarray. I
had two older brothers, 10 and 14 older
than me. That's who I entered the family
with. You know, there was them and my
parents,
and two years later would be my sister.
It was just like, wow. There's four big
people here. They have four different ideas about
things. And my job is to figure out
like, I was called in to be the
(05:18):
bundle of joy that brought love and connection
to that family.
And my brothers tell me I did a
pretty good job at it, at least for
a couple years. I I you know, after
that, maybe not straight up for all sixty
six years, but at least for the person.
For a little bit. You're you're all that
for a little bit. Yeah. I hear you.
I was all that for a little bit,
and I was a rolling bundle of joy.
(05:39):
I was brought out to bring people laughter
and bring people smiles. I do remember those
days where I was sort of like the
monkey on the on the accordion.
Yeah. Right. You're you're performing.
Exactly. Yeah. You're performing to bring joy. I
was smart. I was, you know, I was
clearly smart, and my brothers made it their
business to leave me fair amount of precociousness.
(06:00):
I knew how to read and write and,
you know, actually do math when I entered
kindergarten, and that put me way ahead of
my class. It was just an exploration. It's
like, where is this Fred supposed to land?
Right. You know, school became very boring for
me very early,
and that was very clear that that wasn't
where I was gonna learn how to communicate,
which I knew was the most important thing
(06:21):
that humans needed to do. Let's talk about
that with that setting of what you just
set the stage about Yeah. And translate that
into organizational
behaviors because you're talking organizational unit of a
family. So let's flip that over to how
most people interface.
Of course, family's the first thing you get
to see, in diapers.
(06:41):
But as you progress in age, then you
start working outside the home or getting a
job and all these different interfaces with other
people.
So how does trust
become
an enabler or disabler
in that progression,
let's say?
How does trust become an enabler or disabler
in that progression?
(07:02):
Well, I think that trust is an interesting
thing. You know, trust is earned. It's not
just offered.
My son tells me that I have the
most optimistic faith in people that he's ever
seen. I don't know where he gets at.
I don't see that at all. But the
idea is that I'm kind of open minded.
I'm
expecting people to deliver to me. I'm expecting
(07:22):
to learn from people that who they are.
And I'm hoping not to already put somebody
in a box long before I actually have
conversations with them. You know, inside of a,
let's say a corporate group environment or any
kind of either business or small group, such
as a family or a community group or
a company,
I think what we're really looking for is
(07:42):
to find our place. What gaps can I
fill that aren't already filled? Who can I
be that I can be of service and
be interesting and interested in what it is
that I do?
Like, how can I make a difference? I
think each of us really wanna make a
difference. We don't wanna just be overlooked and
unseen.
We'd really want to actually put some impact
(08:03):
into every environment that we enter,
whether that's through speaking or listening
or just being present or filling an actual
gap. That's what I think most of us
are doing all the time is seeing, okay.
Where can my interjection, where can my contribution
fit in so that I can be seen
and heard and respected for who I am?
I'm gonna bring in an article from Forbes
(08:25):
dated '20 or, excuse me, 09/2024.
Three reasons to bring your authentic self to
work by a psychologist.
And I'm just gonna scroll down here to
the thing that pops for me is the
second bullet in this article is authenticity
fuels motivation,
dedication,
and engagement. Mhmm. But not everybody authentic is
(08:48):
pleasant. Mhmm. I mean, you can be authentically,
a a very negative person
and and not do well in a community.
So how does an organization
help to manicure the lawn, so to speak,
of getting the behaviors that benefit
the majority?
Yeah.
Well, I think the goal is not necessarily
(09:10):
to be pleasant. Let's face that. The goal
is to be authentic. And, you know, pleasantness
is overrated.
There are situations
where not being pleasant is exactly the way
one should be in order to get the
next job done, in order to move the
needle forward.
Being pleasant isn't nearly as important as being
authentic, at least in my view. See, when
we're authentic
(09:31):
look, very few people, if any, maybe it's
zero people have ever achieved, you know, full
scale authenticity. We're often we have become people
that we're not in order to protect the
person that we are. And that's just the
essence of authenticity. Say that again, please. Say
that again. We have become people that we're
not in order to protect the person that
(09:52):
we are.
We actually choose to be someone that we're
not as if we're protecting the person that
we are. Is it a fear of conflict
that does that? I mean, what's the trigger
there? I think it's a fear of being
hurt, a fear of having our heart broken,
a fear of being
a fear of being dismissed, disrespected, or disregarded,
or essentially thrown off the island. And if
(10:13):
we put our own authentic tender self out
there, it's a fear of having our sensitive
delicate areas chopped off or mocked or mimicked
or made fun of. You know? So we
learned in school, actually. It was very early
on, and maybe even most of us have
learned in our families prior to school, this
precocious,
communication driven, adventurous child in elementary school was
(10:36):
a terror. I mean, I was a true
and honest terror. There was nobody
there was no elementary school teacher who ever
forgot to this day having Fred as a
student. I'm quite sure of that. Got it.
And that's because
I spoke all the time, and I was
really funny. And I had really good things
to say, but I was disruptive. Right. And
being disruptive wasn't really what was expected. And
(10:57):
I think you're right. I think there is
some kind of model that we've all had
shadowing our behaviors that says that's not acceptable
behavior. You know, get in line. Don't be
disruptive because now you're
you're the focus of, you know, you're taking
away the focus. Mhmm. That's an interesting point.
I wanted to follow-up on this Forbes article.
(11:17):
It says that in a 2018 study indicates
that authenticity in the work and this is
all quoted from this article. I'm reading from
the article.
That authenticity in the workplace is strongly linked
to intrinsic
motivation.
When employees feel they can be their true
selves at work, they are more likely to
experience higher levels of engagement, dedication, and job
(11:39):
satisfaction.
Why not does HR lead with that? Why
is that not how organizations
start the culture up? Engagement, dedication, and job
satisfaction
as an outcome of authenticity
has to be weighed up against
the risk of people actually saying their truth
and taking down the system.
After all, you know, if you say your
(12:01):
truth, if you're authentic and you're really able
to honestly speak your truth inside of corporations
that have their own techniques of perhaps corruption
or covert deception
or misalignment
of values
or
asking people to do things that are not
in balance with their soul.
(12:21):
If someone's going to speak up against that
out loud, that becomes a risk to the
status quo of the corporate modus operandi,
and we have to do something to protect
the corporation
and the status quo of the way things
are. But, you know, authenticity
is very frightening
as shown,
like, in so many ways these days in
(12:43):
the world of cancel culture and censorship. All
that people have to do is speak up
and say, what the hell? Yeah. What WTF.
And that's really scary to the inherent system.
It kinda
the old metaphor, I guess, is what I
would call it is that, you know, you
don't rock the boat. Don't cause any agitation
because you could upset the universe kinda thing.
(13:04):
Everything is a fear based. I wanna go
into what you're kinda getting into is the
psychological safety within an organization, within a culture,
within a family
is kind of the fruit that everybody wants
to get to,
but how to get there is a lot
of behavioral change. Well, it's really about being
honest, about being genuine, and about being authentic,
(13:26):
and about speaking your true self. You know,
we've reached a point on the back end
of these people,
you and I included, who often pretend to
be somebody else in order to protect the
person that we are, that we've now chosen
that we don't even speak when we should
or we speak when we shouldn't
and even gotten to the point where we
say things simply in order to stay in
a group. And
(13:47):
even more ludicrous and preposterous
it's a notion that we often say things
that even we don't believe.
Dude, what the hell is that? Well, alright.
So let's talk about that. So are you
saying that we say things that are preposterous?
We know they're preposterous,
but somehow we have some conviction to say
it. Exactly. And the conviction is we get
(14:07):
to stay in the group that we think
is protecting us. We don't get disengaged. You
know, we continue to belong. Right. Right. You're
staying in the circle. Right? So is that
just the definition of bad group thinking?
No. That's a definition of sheer inauthenticity.
That's just a definition of being entirely afraid
of being discharged. Because you don't believe like
(14:27):
they do. Exactly. So You don't wanna act
like I will go on record saying something
I don't believe.
That is an outstanding
human characteristic,
by the way. That is beyond lying. Yeah.
That is even beyond lying to ourselves. That
is out there. Wow. So that should have
a higher level of
(14:48):
critical thinking against
I'm gonna say that the perfect example of
what you're talking about is the political culture
in this country and probably every other country
is that people say things to get elected.
They don't believe whatever they're saying. How does
someone that's a consumer of
information Mhmm. Be able to start discerning that
(15:09):
kind of bad behavior? Ah, that's a very
good that's a very good question. It's almost
you're you're butting up against a major question
of, like, what is reality? And Yeah. You
know, in in the present day state and
age, reality is not something that you can
look out there and listen to people and
find one by one. So reality is an
(15:29):
interstate, I would say. All you can do
is be the change you wanna be. I
mean, that's it. All you can do is
actually live inside of the reality that's been
inherent or, you know, gifted to you, blessed
with you, that you're catching up with. So
what you know to be so in your
soul, I firmly believe you know to be
so in your soul. There's a whole new
quality.
(15:49):
Those things, if they can surface, is going
to represent a certain sense of reality.
So if you're gonna look out there into
the news world to try to figure out
what your reality is or if you're gonna
get on social media and try to figure
out what reality is, you're gonna be sadly
disappointed.
Or not. We're all the There are a
lot of people that love sucking up all
that stuff. They they love it. Oh, you
(16:09):
can suck it up. Do you or they
can or they can pretend to love it.
But I'm telling you that their reality is
being shaken. Their reality
is being agitated. And you can soak it
all up all you want. You can spend
$6.08, 10 hours a day or more on
social media in the news sites. I have
some friends who do it, make it their
very biggest ambition
(16:30):
to get out there and get sources from
literally all over the world. These are people
are dedicated
to finding their reality and then distilling it
out and allowing yourself to discern
what could or could not be so given
the sources that are saying whatever it is,
any kind of ulterior motive that any of
these sources might have at a certain time,
who they're representing, what their ultimate outcome intended
(16:54):
outcome is,
and being able to, you know, really synthesize
all that and come up with a reality.
You have to let go of what you
think you know and especially let go of
the things that you know that you know.
I mean, the things that you know that
you know are the most dangerous after all.
This this kinda sounds to me, and I'm
not a theologian, but
it kinda sounds like a Buddhist approach to
(17:17):
just sticking with what is in front of
you
instead of going off in all these directions
and letting your energy get pulled in multiple
facets of not reality, but somebody else's reality.
Well, I'm not gonna argue with anything that
the Buddhist approach has to say about things.
I've never read any dharma that I didn't
agree with. Have you? I don't think that
there's anything there in dharma that is disagreeable
(17:40):
ever.
Nothing. And for all of us humans, that's
the thing about Dharma is it's so fantastic
that it just simply describes the human condition.
What are you saying? That we shouldn't be
in the here and now? We should be
in the there and then? It's like, no,
we should be in the here and now
if best we can. And what we should
deal with is right in front of us
because that's all we have. Let's just face
it. That's not controversial. There's not an anti
(18:03):
Buddhist approach to things.
You know, the Buddha just explained
exactly
multiple ways in beautiful vocabulary, multiple ways to
ascertain the human condition and then share it
with others. So what would be your advice
in a organization?
Mhmm. If the leadership is listening right now
Yeah. And they are trying to build a
more trusting
(18:24):
culture Mhmm. What would be things you could
offer to help them
prop up their organization?
Well, that's great. So first thing they should
do is hire me. I would love to
do support for them, and,
let me do a weekend workshop with whoever's
there. So the way that would work is
we would go over the way things are
going on in that corporation,
really maybe have a premeeting or two and
(18:45):
get an idea of where you know, what
direction are we going in? Where are we
headed? What's our North Star? What's what's the
goal here? Is it to create increased productivity
or improve morale? Or what are we really
doing here? So we would look at that.
And I think, you know, once we do
that, I think we're gonna see that if
we can create a safe space for people
to actually become who they are, exactly what
(19:05):
Forbes said in 02/2018, by the way, great
article choice. Fantastic that you pulled that up.
That's where we're gonna get the greatest productivity.
When we can create a space for people
to actually raise their hand, ask proper questions
from their soul, like what is it that's
itching?
What is it that needs to be addressed?
And then raise when things aren't working out
the way that they're intended to or the
way that they should, that that people can
(19:27):
actually speak up and tell their superiors or
tell their colleagues
that X and Y aren't working as well
as intended
rather than feeling like they might insult somebody
if a particular project is not going. The
only way we're gonna be able to do
that is to create the possibility of security
and of safety
inside the world of authenticity. And the only
(19:47):
way to do that I've ever seen is
to model it yourself. That's it. The only
way to create authenticity in another person is
to be authentic.
And when you pursue authenticity, you create a
space for all the people around you to
pursue their own authenticity
in some degree of aspiration and maybe even
awe.
The possibility of speaking without stuttering, the possibility
(20:07):
of sharing your thoughts for real as they
arise, and they might even be different than
they were an hour ago or a day
ago. And you don't have to worry about
the fact that your mind changed. You don't
have to hold the same line day after
day, week after week, month after month. That's
not a requirement of what it is to
be human. Everything you just, in a nutshell,
talked about in an organization and personal relationships
(20:29):
is accountability.
There's gotta be an air of accountability in
order to make all of that work. Right.
So accountability,
you know, is really that's a great word,
and thanks for bringing that up. In order
for me to be accountable, I need to
be accountable to, essentially, to more than simply
myself.
I'm able to pull one over on myself.
I already don't trust me at some level,
(20:50):
and I already know that I might slime
around and not give myself the full level
of authenticity and the full level of accountability
I deserve.
So, when I have another person, and that'd
be like an accountability partner,
or let's say a committed listener of some
level,
then I have the possibility of actually making
statements and then being held to those statements.
(21:11):
At 06:30 tonight, I have an important meeting.
And in that meeting, I've been asked to
fill out one page.
There's three prompts out there, and I'm to
write out three answers to those prompts and
have that ready for the 06:30 meeting. Okay.
This man holds me accountable as do I
for him.
And you can know that that will be
done by 06:30 as well. There's an importance
(21:32):
to
me being my word. What does that really
mean? That means that
I can be, you can con on me
when I say something that it will be
done. That's what called being my word. Now,
if it can't be done, you can con
on me to address that as soon as
I realize that it can't be done, to
let you know and clean up any of
the messes that are associated with that. And
(21:53):
not only that, like, actually take responsibility
for the fact that I didn't do that,
which I would said. And then, you know,
recommit or renegotiate
or really look at, am I ever gonna
get it done? And if so, by when?
I wanna ring that back to the organization
having in order to create a safe space
for organizational
people
to be uninhibited
(22:14):
and to be naturally themselves,
there has to be an accountability
to the organization
to provide that safety in order to even
foster any of that. Mhmm. I'm bringing back
the accountability
in order for folks to recognize that
you can be your authentic self, but if
your organization is not protecting
that space to begin with, you gotta wonder
(22:36):
that's where most people probably operate from is
this cautious space. They're not gonna put their
neck on the block. Yeah. When we start
getting that, that's actually when we're chipping away
at the integrity of the entire organization.
Now almost every organization that I've ever dealt
with does have spaces where true and honest
authenticity is actually not welcome.
(22:56):
Let's face it. It's, like, really actually not
welcome because it is so disruptive. We're not
asking for your input. Thank you very much.
Exactly.
Exactly. And if people are honest about looking
at the infrastructure of the actual created organization,
you'll see that there are spaces where I
don't care if that's what he thinks. It's
not welcome into what's here.
(23:19):
All the way going up to the c
suites, all the way going up to the
CEOs and the CFOs, CTOs, or wherever you
are,
you can get that there's some situations
where, like, a smoking gun, you know, like,
somebody's out there who's, you know, blabbering.
And what they're really doing in some cases
is actually speaking the truth out loud where
it's not welcome. Mhmm. And that can be
(23:41):
so disruptive and disorienting
to the status quo of of the prevailing
infrastructure.
Yeah. Yeah. Well, it it puts a defensive
posture on. Exactly. Right? It becomes, oh, woah,
woah, woah, woah. You are poking the wrong
bear here. Exactly. Poking the wrong bear is
a great way to put it. Exactly. Yeah.
Yeah. The cool thing is is that Merriam
Webster's
(24:02):
word of the year Word of the year.
2023
was
authentic. Yeah. One of them. There's a fair
amount of them in this article, but authentic
is
top of the list.
So they go by number of searches and
lookups and all that sort of thing.
In this article, just to to wrap this
up on what's authentic,
authentic has a number of meanings, and I'm
(24:23):
reading from this article from Merriam Webster.
Authentic has a number of meanings including not
false or imitation,
a synonym
of real and actual,
and also
true to one's own personality,
spirit, or character.
To go back to that organization
that is, oh, hands off. Don't hey. You
(24:44):
don't tell us how to do things. We've
been doing this for ninety three years, and
this is the process. Don't even upset this
cart.
They are not welcoming
anybody
to have their own personality,
spirit, or character.
Therefore, wouldn't you think that innovation
is dead? Mhmm. There is no even way
that that organization
(25:04):
will ever innovate.
A really, really interesting point. So is that
if we don't allow for a new thought,
we won't create anything new. And that's just
the way it is. If we don't allow
for anything new to enter the system, then
we simply won't be able to create anything
new. We won't be able to grow with
the times. We won't be able to innovate
and generate Adapt. You can adapt. It can.
(25:26):
Yeah.
Unavailable.
By the way, let's take a look at
this because
if we take a look at something that
we've already scratched on, we can look at
the whole impact of artificial intelligence,
which is built a %
on things that have already been done, things
that have already been said. There's not true
and honest innovation
inside
(25:46):
of artificial intelligence. Now artificial intelligence can look
like it's creating something new based on putting
together a, c, and f instead of a,
b, and c. And then maybe actually coming
up with a synthesized answer that appears to
be something new.
But the truth is creating something new out
of nothing,
like innovating and generating in order to optimize
(26:07):
systems,
requires the creation of something new that might
actually supersede what AI has to offer as
it's so embedded in past related evidence based
truths.
And when you get in, that's the truth
with medicine as well. So medicine is only
interested in evidence based truths. And if you
do that, you actually take away from new
(26:28):
breakthroughs.
Like all of a sudden people who come
up with new breakthroughs in an environment that
is built on evidence based will not be
accepted
because there's no previous
experiences
of a new
intervention
being functional. So that newness will actually be
immediately rejected
because it's new, because it's different, because it
(26:49):
doesn't have evidence base. It will be rejected
from the system before it even starts and
thereby
cancel the possibility
of adapting indeed to a future.
Components are shifting every single day. Thinking out
of the box, AI is not capable of
thinking out of the box because everything's in
the box. Everything's in the box. Right? I
mean, in order to have
(27:10):
innovation,
creative thought, creativity,
an example of I just recently used the
AI generative
artwork or images. And when you put in
the context of the image you want, some
of the things are hideous, are absolutely gross
looking stuff. It is like, woah.
But there is an attempt to have machines
(27:32):
create.
Logic is one thing, but creation is something
totally different. So I hear what you're saying.
In order to wrap up I'm looking at
the clock. Let's wrap up with can you
define for me what you think knowledge management
is? Knowledge knowledge management is? Knowledge management. Oh,
wow.
So first of all, we have to look
at what is knowledge and what is knowledge
versus understanding and wisdom. And when you start
(27:53):
looking at those three things, they're
they're over there on the tree of life,
actually, and the safer road, those three separate
different Sefer Road in knowledge, wisdom, and understanding.
Knowledge base, I would say, and knowledge management
is actually being able to open our mind
to what it is that we're learning and
then keep our mind open, realizing that
(28:14):
things are always due for adjustment. Like, it's
the possibility of remaining an inquiry even after
we know something is what I think is
really available here. And how do we do
that? The most dangerous knowledge we have is
the stuff that we know that we know.
You see, there's the stuff that we know.
And in that stuff, if someone else thinks
they know something different than that which I
know,
(28:34):
I can actually say stuff like, well, we
can agree to disagree. Or, well, yeah, you're
just wrong, but I still love you. Or,
you know, I I hear you, but, you
know, that's because you're just undereducated
or something like that. Yeah. Yeah. That's the
stuff that we know.
The stuff that we know that we know
becomes really dangerous. Because now when someone says
(28:54):
something that is different than what I know
or that I know, I dismiss them. I
think they're just dead wrong. I might even
dismiss everything about them, which is we've seen
in the last several years how people
dismiss the entire human if they think a
certain way about a certain thing.
Knowledge management is not that. What we're talking
about in optimal knowledge management
(29:16):
is the possibility of being open to any
and all input, is the possibility of at
least being listening
very carefully and radically to anything that anyone
has to say that might be disruptive to
the prevailing paradigm.
When we can do that, now we're starting
to explore really, and to dance in this
concept of optimal knowledge management.
(29:38):
What do we do? Okay. We can record
that which was said. You know, you can
take notes or you can use your AI,
to learn and then compile
knowledge based information.
Then here comes another piece of knowledge based
information, which might be, you you know, mutually
exclusive.
And we have to do, like, some sort
of
if a can be true, then b can't
(30:00):
be true or something like that. We have
to understand that, no, even in that phase,
that's only the restrictions of logics that are
make giving us that outcome.
Because in fact, a can be true and
b can be true even if they're mutually
exclusive. Even if they're diametrically opposed to each
other,
the possibility that a and b can coexist
must be given consideration
over and above our logistic
(30:21):
restrictions that we design.
See, logic has it that if they so,
then we can't be so. But that's because
we're restricted to the whole notion of logic
Yeah. Where the world does not occur inside
of logic. I think the term that we're
kinda dancing around is cognitive dissonance Mhmm. Yeah.
In this piece is because
it's a binary logic that says yes or
(30:42):
no, yes or no, yes or no, and
the world's not that simple. It's just not.
It's just not. You know, a word that
I one of my mentors has been recently
throughout a couple weeks ago to discuss this
is a word called integrative complexity.
And integrative complexity takes into consideration multiple states
of the same affair,
essentially getting that they're, you know, they're, and
(31:02):
that they all can coexist even if none
of them could actually be the same in
our silly little mind, in our silly little
logistical mind.
They can all coexist as honest to goodness
reality. I think that brings up a good
point for us to land on because I
think there's a majority of humans on the
planet that likes simple answers. Yeah. And what
you just described
(31:22):
is the complexity of the world and life
in general,
and that we have to kinda shift the
paradigm of how we process
to look at things as not such a
simple black and white solution. You know, it's
funny. It's almost like once you start saying
that, we can create the complex into being
simple again. See, once we can open it
up and start seeing that it's not so
(31:44):
simple, it becomes simple to get that it's
not so simple. In other words, it's very
complex, and that's simply the truth simply.
It's complex. There's multiple different things that are
coexisting together that are very restricted, limited, logistical
minds based on binary
linear thinking,
can't capture,
but that's just how we're hardwired. But, obviously,
(32:05):
we're not hardwired to understand the universe. And
and the other thing too is that most
conditions
that humans run into, they'll overcomplicate
what was simple
by some reaction in their selves to overthink
it, make make it more complicated than it
should have been. For And that goes to
Occam's razor. Yeah. I looked up integrative complexity,
(32:25):
you know, on Wikipedia.
Integrative and see if that this fits. I
just like learning new terms, and I like
this one. So integrative
complexity is a research psychometric that refers to
the degree to which thinking and reasoning
involve the recognition and integration of multiple
perspectives and possibilities
(32:45):
and their interrelated
contingencies.
I love it. This is like Spock, right,
from Star Trek. Yeah. I mean, he's just
out there in all contingencies
looking at everything from all angles.
And that's really
the level,
I think, that we're talking about is having
that authentic self bring that piece into your
(33:06):
metric of operations.
You're less biased and you don't believe everything
you think. Exactly. And even if you do
believe what you think, you can give yourself
the grace to realize that the opposite of
what you think might also be true.
Well, I think that's a great way to
exit this little discussion we've just had because
I think that's the challenge everybody on the
(33:26):
planet needs to accept and say, okay. I'm
ready to be authentic, and I will challenge
what I think. Exactly. Beautiful. Well said. I'm
down. Alright, my friend. Again, thank you for
being here. It's been a pleasure, Edwin. Thank
you for a great conversation. Great way to
wake up this morning. I appreciate you, and
you have a great week.
(33:47):
Thank you for joining this extraordinary journey, and
we hope the experiences gained add value to
you and yours.
See you next time at Because You Need
to Know. If you'd like to contact us,
please email
byntk@pioneer-ks.org,
or find us on LinkedIn.
(34:13):
Thank you for listening to Because You Need
to Know, the reference podcast in knowledge management.
My name is Sony Tonebe. As an art
administrator,
Because You Need to Know has been my
go to podcast and has helped me hone
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Hey, everybody. Thanks for joining Pioneer Knowledge Services
because you need to know. Today, we're gonna
really highlight light some of the things that
are under the hood of human behavior and
how that shows up in organizations
(01:03):
of any size.
It really is the elements of who we
are. Enjoy.
Hello. Hello. Hello. Hello, everyone. Edwin, it's so
great to see you again. Thanks for having
me on your show. It's just a a
blast to be here. Total honor, privilege, and,
really, I'm just so excited to have this
(01:25):
conversation finally with you. My name is Doctor.
Fred, Fred Moss or Fred, and some people
still call me Doctor. Moss. And I live
in Grass Valley, California.
That's up here North Of Auburn in between
Sacramento and Reno in the
West side of the foothills
of the Sierra Nevada. It's very beautiful, very
eclectic, very rustic area. I live here with
(01:47):
my incredibly beautiful wife and the gift from
God that she is, as well as three
other gifts that we have been gifted called
felines. We have Desposito,
Winston, and Valentino who homeschool us every single
day. The most interesting thing near me, probably
the Sierra Nevadas. And, you know, this is
Gold Country. So this is where gold was
(02:07):
actually mined.
And you can pine for gold even now
and get little tidbits of it. I live
in Gold Country and it's no doubt that's
part of the rustic, eclectic, beautiful nature of
what it means to live in Grass Valley
in Nevada City.
The thing that I have learned over time
by living here, that people are really, really,
(02:28):
really interesting.
And especially the people that are off the
beaten trail, as if there is such thing
as a beaten trail.
I've always been interested in people who are
off the beaten trail. It's been something I've
been seeking and searching,
exploring, and digging into since as far back
as I can remember, just riding my bike
into the parts of the neighborhood
(02:48):
that my parents told me not to go
in so that I can meet interesting people.
I absolutely love working in the mental health
field, but not because of the way the
mental health field is already designed,
but because of the impact I can make
to actually shift some of the paradigms in
the mental health field, given the position that
I've been blessed with
(03:09):
as a veteran psychiatrist, someone who's been playing
in this field for forty five solid years,
as well as the level of capacity to
communicate
using podcasts and using books and using blogs
and using keynote speaking,
as well as my job as a frontline
doctor,
allows me to really get the message across
to people that this psychiatric industrial complex doesn't
(03:32):
work the way it's supposed to. And maybe
you don't need to be going there if
you feel uncomfortable.
Maybe there's nothing wrong with you in the
first place, even if you know that there
is. Because
that knowing that there is something wrong with
us is so universal that it's actually a
sign of being normal. I'm gonna go back
to that childhood memory of riding the bikes
where your parents said don't go. Did you
(03:54):
find your authentic self at a very young
age? That's a really interesting question. I think
the answer to that is actually no.
I don't think I was really looking for
myself. I was kinda looking like who out
there could represent something that I could become.
Okay. What is it that I needed to
learn in order to step into who I
was to become? By being somewhat, I would
(04:15):
think, maybe someone who might label it defiant
of your parents' wishes
that you were being authentic
because you just did what you felt driven
to do. Well, there was some authenticity in
my search, and there was some unstoppability.
You know? There was some tenacity for sure
as I got on my Stingray and then
my bigger twin and then put my thumb
(04:37):
out on the road and really got into
those neighborhoods. Like, don't cross nine mile. Okay,
mom. And, you know, I was on eight
mile before by the end of the day.
So there's a there's an adventuresome
spirit in Yeah. Where did that come from?
Where did that seed come from that made
you the adventurer at such a young age?
I think I was born, you know, I
was born to be a healer. I was
(04:57):
born into a family that already had a
fair amount of conflict, chaos, and disarray. I
had two older brothers, 10 and 14 older
than me. That's who I entered the family
with. You know, there was them and my
parents,
and two years later would be my sister.
It was just like, wow. There's four big
people here. They have four different ideas about
things. And my job is to figure out
like, I was called in to be the
(05:18):
bundle of joy that brought love and connection
to that family.
And my brothers tell me I did a
pretty good job at it, at least for
a couple years. I I you know, after
that, maybe not straight up for all sixty
six years, but at least for the person.
For a little bit. You're you're all that
for a little bit. Yeah. I hear you.
I was all that for a little bit,
and I was a rolling bundle of joy.
(05:39):
I was brought out to bring people laughter
and bring people smiles. I do remember those
days where I was sort of like the
monkey on the on the accordion.
Yeah. Right. You're you're performing.
Exactly. Yeah. You're performing to bring joy. I
was smart. I was, you know, I was
clearly smart, and my brothers made it their
business to leave me fair amount of precociousness.
(06:00):
I knew how to read and write and,
you know, actually do math when I entered
kindergarten, and that put me way ahead of
my class. It was just an exploration. It's
like, where is this Fred supposed to land?
Right. You know, school became very boring for
me very early,
and that was very clear that that wasn't
where I was gonna learn how to communicate,
which I knew was the most important thing
(06:21):
that humans needed to do. Let's talk about
that with that setting of what you just
set the stage about Yeah. And translate that
into organizational
behaviors because you're talking organizational unit of a
family. So let's flip that over to how
most people interface.
Of course, family's the first thing you get
to see, in diapers.
(06:41):
But as you progress in age, then you
start working outside the home or getting a
job and all these different interfaces with other
people.
So how does trust
become
an enabler or disabler
in that progression,
let's say?
How does trust become an enabler or disabler
in that progression?
(07:02):
Well, I think that trust is an interesting
thing. You know, trust is earned. It's not
just offered.
My son tells me that I have the
most optimistic faith in people that he's ever
seen. I don't know where he gets at.
I don't see that at all. But the
idea is that I'm kind of open minded.
I'm
expecting people to deliver to me. I'm expecting
(07:22):
to learn from people that who they are.
And I'm hoping not to already put somebody
in a box long before I actually have
conversations with them. You know, inside of a,
let's say a corporate group environment or any
kind of either business or small group, such
as a family or a community group or
a company,
I think what we're really looking for is
(07:42):
to find our place. What gaps can I
fill that aren't already filled? Who can I
be that I can be of service and
be interesting and interested in what it is
that I do?
Like, how can I make a difference? I
think each of us really wanna make a
difference. We don't wanna just be overlooked and
unseen.
We'd really want to actually put some impact
(08:03):
into every environment that we enter,
whether that's through speaking or listening
or just being present or filling an actual
gap. That's what I think most of us
are doing all the time is seeing, okay.
Where can my interjection, where can my contribution
fit in so that I can be seen
and heard and respected for who I am?
I'm gonna bring in an article from Forbes
(08:25):
dated '20 or, excuse me, 09/2024.
Three reasons to bring your authentic self to
work by a psychologist.
And I'm just gonna scroll down here to
the thing that pops for me is the
second bullet in this article is authenticity
fuels motivation,
dedication,
and engagement. Mhmm. But not everybody authentic is
(08:48):
pleasant. Mhmm. I mean, you can be authentically,
a a very negative person
and and not do well in a community.
So how does an organization
help to manicure the lawn, so to speak,
of getting the behaviors that benefit
the majority?
Yeah.
Well, I think the goal is not necessarily
(09:10):
to be pleasant. Let's face that. The goal
is to be authentic. And, you know, pleasantness
is overrated.
There are situations
where not being pleasant is exactly the way
one should be in order to get the
next job done, in order to move the
needle forward.
Being pleasant isn't nearly as important as being
authentic, at least in my view. See, when
we're authentic
(09:31):
look, very few people, if any, maybe it's
zero people have ever achieved, you know, full
scale authenticity. We're often we have become people
that we're not in order to protect the
person that we are. And that's just the
essence of authenticity. Say that again, please. Say
that again. We have become people that we're
not in order to protect the person that
(09:52):
we are.
We actually choose to be someone that we're
not as if we're protecting the person that
we are. Is it a fear of conflict
that does that? I mean, what's the trigger
there? I think it's a fear of being
hurt, a fear of having our heart broken,
a fear of being
a fear of being dismissed, disrespected, or disregarded,
or essentially thrown off the island. And if
(10:13):
we put our own authentic tender self out
there, it's a fear of having our sensitive
delicate areas chopped off or mocked or mimicked
or made fun of. You know? So we
learned in school, actually. It was very early
on, and maybe even most of us have
learned in our families prior to school, this
precocious,
communication driven, adventurous child in elementary school was
(10:36):
a terror. I mean, I was a true
and honest terror. There was nobody
there was no elementary school teacher who ever
forgot to this day having Fred as a
student. I'm quite sure of that. Got it.
And that's because
I spoke all the time, and I was
really funny. And I had really good things
to say, but I was disruptive. Right. And
being disruptive wasn't really what was expected. And
(10:57):
I think you're right. I think there is
some kind of model that we've all had
shadowing our behaviors that says that's not acceptable
behavior. You know, get in line. Don't be
disruptive because now you're
you're the focus of, you know, you're taking
away the focus. Mhmm. That's an interesting point.
I wanted to follow-up on this Forbes article.
(11:17):
It says that in a 2018 study indicates
that authenticity in the work and this is
all quoted from this article. I'm reading from
the article.
That authenticity in the workplace is strongly linked
to intrinsic
motivation.
When employees feel they can be their true
selves at work, they are more likely to
experience higher levels of engagement, dedication, and job
(11:39):
satisfaction.
Why not does HR lead with that? Why
is that not how organizations
start the culture up? Engagement, dedication, and job
satisfaction
as an outcome of authenticity
has to be weighed up against
the risk of people actually saying their truth
and taking down the system.
After all, you know, if you say your
(12:01):
truth, if you're authentic and you're really able
to honestly speak your truth inside of corporations
that have their own techniques of perhaps corruption
or covert deception
or misalignment
of values
or
asking people to do things that are not
in balance with their soul.
(12:21):
If someone's going to speak up against that
out loud, that becomes a risk to the
status quo of the corporate modus operandi,
and we have to do something to protect
the corporation
and the status quo of the way things
are. But, you know, authenticity
is very frightening
as shown,
like, in so many ways these days in
(12:43):
the world of cancel culture and censorship. All
that people have to do is speak up
and say, what the hell? Yeah. What WTF.
And that's really scary to the inherent system.
It kinda
the old metaphor, I guess, is what I
would call it is that, you know, you
don't rock the boat. Don't cause any agitation
because you could upset the universe kinda thing.
(13:04):
Everything is a fear based. I wanna go
into what you're kinda getting into is the
psychological safety within an organization, within a culture,
within a family
is kind of the fruit that everybody wants
to get to,
but how to get there is a lot
of behavioral change. Well, it's really about being
honest, about being genuine, and about being authentic,
(13:26):
and about speaking your true self. You know,
we've reached a point on the back end
of these people,
you and I included, who often pretend to
be somebody else in order to protect the
person that we are, that we've now chosen
that we don't even speak when we should
or we speak when we shouldn't
and even gotten to the point where we
say things simply in order to stay in
a group. And
(13:47):
even more ludicrous and preposterous
it's a notion that we often say things
that even we don't believe.
Dude, what the hell is that? Well, alright.
So let's talk about that. So are you
saying that we say things that are preposterous?
We know they're preposterous,
but somehow we have some conviction to say
it. Exactly. And the conviction is we get
(14:07):
to stay in the group that we think
is protecting us. We don't get disengaged. You
know, we continue to belong. Right. Right. You're
staying in the circle. Right? So is that
just the definition of bad group thinking?
No. That's a definition of sheer inauthenticity.
That's just a definition of being entirely afraid
of being discharged. Because you don't believe like
(14:27):
they do. Exactly. So You don't wanna act
like I will go on record saying something
I don't believe.
That is an outstanding
human characteristic,
by the way. That is beyond lying. Yeah.
That is even beyond lying to ourselves. That
is out there. Wow. So that should have
a higher level of
(14:48):
critical thinking against
I'm gonna say that the perfect example of
what you're talking about is the political culture
in this country and probably every other country
is that people say things to get elected.
They don't believe whatever they're saying. How does
someone that's a consumer of
information Mhmm. Be able to start discerning that
(15:09):
kind of bad behavior? Ah, that's a very
good that's a very good question. It's almost
you're you're butting up against a major question
of, like, what is reality? And Yeah. You
know, in in the present day state and
age, reality is not something that you can
look out there and listen to people and
find one by one. So reality is an
(15:29):
interstate, I would say. All you can do
is be the change you wanna be. I
mean, that's it. All you can do is
actually live inside of the reality that's been
inherent or, you know, gifted to you, blessed
with you, that you're catching up with. So
what you know to be so in your
soul, I firmly believe you know to be
so in your soul. There's a whole new
quality.
(15:49):
Those things, if they can surface, is going
to represent a certain sense of reality.
So if you're gonna look out there into
the news world to try to figure out
what your reality is or if you're gonna
get on social media and try to figure
out what reality is, you're gonna be sadly
disappointed.
Or not. We're all the There are a
lot of people that love sucking up all
that stuff. They they love it. Oh, you
(16:09):
can suck it up. Do you or they
can or they can pretend to love it.
But I'm telling you that their reality is
being shaken. Their reality
is being agitated. And you can soak it
all up all you want. You can spend
$6.08, 10 hours a day or more on
social media in the news sites. I have
some friends who do it, make it their
very biggest ambition
(16:30):
to get out there and get sources from
literally all over the world. These are people
are dedicated
to finding their reality and then distilling it
out and allowing yourself to discern
what could or could not be so given
the sources that are saying whatever it is,
any kind of ulterior motive that any of
these sources might have at a certain time,
who they're representing, what their ultimate outcome intended
(16:54):
outcome is,
and being able to, you know, really synthesize
all that and come up with a reality.
You have to let go of what you
think you know and especially let go of
the things that you know that you know.
I mean, the things that you know that
you know are the most dangerous after all.
This this kinda sounds to me, and I'm
not a theologian, but
it kinda sounds like a Buddhist approach to
(17:17):
just sticking with what is in front of
you
instead of going off in all these directions
and letting your energy get pulled in multiple
facets of not reality, but somebody else's reality.
Well, I'm not gonna argue with anything that
the Buddhist approach has to say about things.
I've never read any dharma that I didn't
agree with. Have you? I don't think that
there's anything there in dharma that is disagreeable
(17:40):
ever.
Nothing. And for all of us humans, that's
the thing about Dharma is it's so fantastic
that it just simply describes the human condition.
What are you saying? That we shouldn't be
in the here and now? We should be
in the there and then? It's like, no,
we should be in the here and now
if best we can. And what we should
deal with is right in front of us
because that's all we have. Let's just face
it. That's not controversial. There's not an anti
(18:03):
Buddhist approach to things.
You know, the Buddha just explained
exactly
multiple ways in beautiful vocabulary, multiple ways to
ascertain the human condition and then share it
with others. So what would be your advice
in a organization?
Mhmm. If the leadership is listening right now
Yeah. And they are trying to build a
more trusting
(18:24):
culture Mhmm. What would be things you could
offer to help them
prop up their organization?
Well, that's great. So first thing they should
do is hire me. I would love to
do support for them, and,
let me do a weekend workshop with whoever's
there. So the way that would work is
we would go over the way things are
going on in that corporation,
really maybe have a premeeting or two and
(18:45):
get an idea of where you know, what
direction are we going in? Where are we
headed? What's our North Star? What's what's the
goal here? Is it to create increased productivity
or improve morale? Or what are we really
doing here? So we would look at that.
And I think, you know, once we do
that, I think we're gonna see that if
we can create a safe space for people
to actually become who they are, exactly what
(19:05):
Forbes said in 02/2018, by the way, great
article choice. Fantastic that you pulled that up.
That's where we're gonna get the greatest productivity.
When we can create a space for people
to actually raise their hand, ask proper questions
from their soul, like what is it that's
itching?
What is it that needs to be addressed?
And then raise when things aren't working out
the way that they're intended to or the
way that they should, that that people can
(19:27):
actually speak up and tell their superiors or
tell their colleagues
that X and Y aren't working as well
as intended
rather than feeling like they might insult somebody
if a particular project is not going. The
only way we're gonna be able to do
that is to create the possibility of security
and of safety
inside the world of authenticity. And the only
(19:47):
way to do that I've ever seen is
to model it yourself. That's it. The only
way to create authenticity in another person is
to be authentic.
And when you pursue authenticity, you create a
space for all the people around you to
pursue their own authenticity
in some degree of aspiration and maybe even
awe.
The possibility of speaking without stuttering, the possibility
(20:07):
of sharing your thoughts for real as they
arise, and they might even be different than
they were an hour ago or a day
ago. And you don't have to worry about
the fact that your mind changed. You don't
have to hold the same line day after
day, week after week, month after month. That's
not a requirement of what it is to
be human. Everything you just, in a nutshell,
talked about in an organization and personal relationships
(20:29):
is accountability.
There's gotta be an air of accountability in
order to make all of that work. Right.
So accountability,
you know, is really that's a great word,
and thanks for bringing that up. In order
for me to be accountable, I need to
be accountable to, essentially, to more than simply
myself.
I'm able to pull one over on myself.
I already don't trust me at some level,
(20:50):
and I already know that I might slime
around and not give myself the full level
of authenticity and the full level of accountability
I deserve.
So, when I have another person, and that'd
be like an accountability partner,
or let's say a committed listener of some
level,
then I have the possibility of actually making
statements and then being held to those statements.
(21:11):
At 06:30 tonight, I have an important meeting.
And in that meeting, I've been asked to
fill out one page.
There's three prompts out there, and I'm to
write out three answers to those prompts and
have that ready for the 06:30 meeting. Okay.
This man holds me accountable as do I
for him.
And you can know that that will be
done by 06:30 as well. There's an importance
(21:32):
to
me being my word. What does that really
mean? That means that
I can be, you can con on me
when I say something that it will be
done. That's what called being my word. Now,
if it can't be done, you can con
on me to address that as soon as
I realize that it can't be done, to
let you know and clean up any of
the messes that are associated with that. And
(21:53):
not only that, like, actually take responsibility
for the fact that I didn't do that,
which I would said. And then, you know,
recommit or renegotiate
or really look at, am I ever gonna
get it done? And if so, by when?
I wanna ring that back to the organization
having in order to create a safe space
for organizational
people
to be uninhibited
(22:14):
and to be naturally themselves,
there has to be an accountability
to the organization
to provide that safety in order to even
foster any of that. Mhmm. I'm bringing back
the accountability
in order for folks to recognize that
you can be your authentic self, but if
your organization is not protecting
that space to begin with, you gotta wonder
(22:36):
that's where most people probably operate from is
this cautious space. They're not gonna put their
neck on the block. Yeah. When we start
getting that, that's actually when we're chipping away
at the integrity of the entire organization.
Now almost every organization that I've ever dealt
with does have spaces where true and honest
authenticity is actually not welcome.
(22:56):
Let's face it. It's, like, really actually not
welcome because it is so disruptive. We're not
asking for your input. Thank you very much.
Exactly.
Exactly. And if people are honest about looking
at the infrastructure of the actual created organization,
you'll see that there are spaces where I
don't care if that's what he thinks. It's
not welcome into what's here.
(23:19):
All the way going up to the c
suites, all the way going up to the
CEOs and the CFOs, CTOs, or wherever you
are,
you can get that there's some situations
where, like, a smoking gun, you know, like,
somebody's out there who's, you know, blabbering.
And what they're really doing in some cases
is actually speaking the truth out loud where
it's not welcome. Mhmm. And that can be
(23:41):
so disruptive and disorienting
to the status quo of of the prevailing
infrastructure.
Yeah. Yeah. Well, it it puts a defensive
posture on. Exactly. Right? It becomes, oh, woah,
woah, woah, woah. You are poking the wrong
bear here. Exactly. Poking the wrong bear is
a great way to put it. Exactly. Yeah.
Yeah. The cool thing is is that Merriam
Webster's
(24:02):
word of the year Word of the year.
2023
was
authentic. Yeah. One of them. There's a fair
amount of them in this article, but authentic
is
top of the list.
So they go by number of searches and
lookups and all that sort of thing.
In this article, just to to wrap this
up on what's authentic,
authentic has a number of meanings, and I'm
(24:23):
reading from this article from Merriam Webster.
Authentic has a number of meanings including not
false or imitation,
a synonym
of real and actual,
and also
true to one's own personality,
spirit, or character.
To go back to that organization
that is, oh, hands off. Don't hey. You
(24:44):
don't tell us how to do things. We've
been doing this for ninety three years, and
this is the process. Don't even upset this
cart.
They are not welcoming
anybody
to have their own personality,
spirit, or character.
Therefore, wouldn't you think that innovation
is dead? Mhmm. There is no even way
that that organization
(25:04):
will ever innovate.
A really, really interesting point. So is that
if we don't allow for a new thought,
we won't create anything new. And that's just
the way it is. If we don't allow
for anything new to enter the system, then
we simply won't be able to create anything
new. We won't be able to grow with
the times. We won't be able to innovate
and generate Adapt. You can adapt. It can.
(25:26):
Yeah.
Unavailable.
By the way, let's take a look at
this because
if we take a look at something that
we've already scratched on, we can look at
the whole impact of artificial intelligence,
which is built a %
on things that have already been done, things
that have already been said. There's not true
and honest innovation
inside
(25:46):
of artificial intelligence. Now artificial intelligence can look
like it's creating something new based on putting
together a, c, and f instead of a,
b, and c. And then maybe actually coming
up with a synthesized answer that appears to
be something new.
But the truth is creating something new out
of nothing,
like innovating and generating in order to optimize
(26:07):
systems,
requires the creation of something new that might
actually supersede what AI has to offer as
it's so embedded in past related evidence based
truths.
And when you get in, that's the truth
with medicine as well. So medicine is only
interested in evidence based truths. And if you
do that, you actually take away from new
(26:28):
breakthroughs.
Like all of a sudden people who come
up with new breakthroughs in an environment that
is built on evidence based will not be
accepted
because there's no previous
experiences
of a new
intervention
being functional. So that newness will actually be
immediately rejected
because it's new, because it's different, because it
(26:49):
doesn't have evidence base. It will be rejected
from the system before it even starts and
thereby
cancel the possibility
of adapting indeed to a future.
Components are shifting every single day. Thinking out
of the box, AI is not capable of
thinking out of the box because everything's in
the box. Everything's in the box. Right? I
mean, in order to have
(27:10):
innovation,
creative thought, creativity,
an example of I just recently used the
AI generative
artwork or images. And when you put in
the context of the image you want, some
of the things are hideous, are absolutely gross
looking stuff. It is like, woah.
But there is an attempt to have machines
(27:32):
create.
Logic is one thing, but creation is something
totally different. So I hear what you're saying.
In order to wrap up I'm looking at
the clock. Let's wrap up with can you
define for me what you think knowledge management
is? Knowledge knowledge management is? Knowledge management. Oh,
wow.
So first of all, we have to look
at what is knowledge and what is knowledge
versus understanding and wisdom. And when you start
(27:53):
looking at those three things, they're
they're over there on the tree of life,
actually, and the safer road, those three separate
different Sefer Road in knowledge, wisdom, and understanding.
Knowledge base, I would say, and knowledge management
is actually being able to open our mind
to what it is that we're learning and
then keep our mind open, realizing that
(28:14):
things are always due for adjustment. Like, it's
the possibility of remaining an inquiry even after
we know something is what I think is
really available here. And how do we do
that? The most dangerous knowledge we have is
the stuff that we know that we know.
You see, there's the stuff that we know.
And in that stuff, if someone else thinks
they know something different than that which I
know,
(28:34):
I can actually say stuff like, well, we
can agree to disagree. Or, well, yeah, you're
just wrong, but I still love you. Or,
you know, I I hear you, but, you
know, that's because you're just undereducated
or something like that. Yeah. Yeah. That's the
stuff that we know.
The stuff that we know that we know
becomes really dangerous. Because now when someone says
(28:54):
something that is different than what I know
or that I know, I dismiss them. I
think they're just dead wrong. I might even
dismiss everything about them, which is we've seen
in the last several years how people
dismiss the entire human if they think a
certain way about a certain thing.
Knowledge management is not that. What we're talking
about in optimal knowledge management
(29:16):
is the possibility of being open to any
and all input, is the possibility of at
least being listening
very carefully and radically to anything that anyone
has to say that might be disruptive to
the prevailing paradigm.
When we can do that, now we're starting
to explore really, and to dance in this
concept of optimal knowledge management.
(29:38):
What do we do? Okay. We can record
that which was said. You know, you can
take notes or you can use your AI,
to learn and then compile
knowledge based information.
Then here comes another piece of knowledge based
information, which might be, you you know, mutually
exclusive.
And we have to do, like, some sort
of
if a can be true, then b can't
(30:00):
be true or something like that. We have
to understand that, no, even in that phase,
that's only the restrictions of logics that are
make giving us that outcome.
Because in fact, a can be true and
b can be true even if they're mutually
exclusive. Even if they're diametrically opposed to each
other,
the possibility that a and b can coexist
must be given consideration
over and above our logistic
(30:21):
restrictions that we design.
See, logic has it that if they so,
then we can't be so. But that's because
we're restricted to the whole notion of logic
Yeah. Where the world does not occur inside
of logic. I think the term that we're
kinda dancing around is cognitive dissonance Mhmm. Yeah.
In this piece is because
it's a binary logic that says yes or
(30:42):
no, yes or no, yes or no, and
the world's not that simple. It's just not.
It's just not. You know, a word that
I one of my mentors has been recently
throughout a couple weeks ago to discuss this
is a word called integrative complexity.
And integrative complexity takes into consideration multiple states
of the same affair,
essentially getting that they're, you know, they're, and
(31:02):
that they all can coexist even if none
of them could actually be the same in
our silly little mind, in our silly little
logistical mind.
They can all coexist as honest to goodness
reality. I think that brings up a good
point for us to land on because I
think there's a majority of humans on the
planet that likes simple answers. Yeah. And what
you just described
(31:22):
is the complexity of the world and life
in general,
and that we have to kinda shift the
paradigm of how we process
to look at things as not such a
simple black and white solution. You know, it's
funny. It's almost like once you start saying
that, we can create the complex into being
simple again. See, once we can open it
up and start seeing that it's not so
(31:44):
simple, it becomes simple to get that it's
not so simple. In other words, it's very
complex, and that's simply the truth simply.
It's complex. There's multiple different things that are
coexisting together that are very restricted, limited, logistical
minds based on binary
linear thinking,
can't capture,
but that's just how we're hardwired. But, obviously,
(32:05):
we're not hardwired to understand the universe. And
and the other thing too is that most
conditions
that humans run into, they'll overcomplicate
what was simple
by some reaction in their selves to overthink
it, make make it more complicated than it
should have been. For And that goes to
Occam's razor. Yeah. I looked up integrative complexity,
(32:25):
you know, on Wikipedia.
Integrative and see if that this fits. I
just like learning new terms, and I like
this one. So integrative
complexity is a research psychometric that refers to
the degree to which thinking and reasoning
involve the recognition and integration of multiple
perspectives and possibilities
(32:45):
and their interrelated
contingencies.
I love it. This is like Spock, right,
from Star Trek. Yeah. I mean, he's just
out there in all contingencies
looking at everything from all angles.
And that's really
the level,
I think, that we're talking about is having
that authentic self bring that piece into your
(33:06):
metric of operations.
You're less biased and you don't believe everything
you think. Exactly. And even if you do
believe what you think, you can give yourself
the grace to realize that the opposite of
what you think might also be true.
Well, I think that's a great way to
exit this little discussion we've just had because
I think that's the challenge everybody on the
(33:26):
planet needs to accept and say, okay. I'm
ready to be authentic, and I will challenge
what I think. Exactly. Beautiful. Well said. I'm
down. Alright, my friend. Again, thank you for
being here. It's been a pleasure, Edwin. Thank
you for a great conversation. Great way to
wake up this morning. I appreciate you, and
you have a great week.
(33:47):
Thank you for joining this extraordinary journey, and
we hope the experiences gained add value to
you and yours.
See you next time at Because You Need
to Know. If you'd like to contact us,
please email
byntk@pioneer-ks.org,
or find us on LinkedIn.
(34:13):
Thank you for listening to Because You Need
to Know, the reference podcast in knowledge management.
My name is Sony Tonebe. As an art
administrator,
Because You Need to Know has been my
go to podcast and has helped me hone
my management skills. Please consider sponsoring the podcast
with your business.
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