August 4, 2023 • 27 mins
Noushin Jedi
Noushin Jedi is an experienced analytical professional with over 22 years of expertise in engineering roles. She is a Chartered Engineer, Mentor, and Assessor within the Institution of Mechanical Engineers, showcasing her dedication to professional development and excellence. Throughout her extensive career, Noushin has consistently demonstrated a strong commitment to continuous improvement.
She possesses a deep understanding of procedural and protocol processes across various industries, enabling her to effectively navigate complex challenges. Not only does Noushin excel in her technical skills, but she also possesses exceptional communication and stakeholder management abilities. With 12 years of experience working across multidisciplinary functions and bridging international and cultural boundaries, she has successfully promoted and led communities of practice for knowledge capturing and sharing. Additionally, she has designed and implemented processes to ensure efficient knowledge capture, setting key performance indicators that reduce the cost and risk of lost knowledge.
Beyond her expertise in knowledge management, Noushin has played a vital role in leading key process improvement projects. Her focus on knowledge management, strategy development, and integration into processes has significantly contributed to minimizing the risk and cost of knowledge loss across diverse boundaries within organizations. She actively engages with teams at various organizational levels and functions, identifying opportunities for continuous process improvement and driving towards customer satisfaction and quick delivery. Furthermore, Noushin has successfully facilitated multiple knowledge capturing workshops, fostering cross-functional engagement and involving subject matter experts. Her adeptness in conducting gap and risk analyses has enhanced knowledge sharing and effectively mitigated potential challenges.
Seasoned #chartered mechanical engineer #CEngProject leader, Problem-solver, #Business Analyst, Knowledge-mobilizerA #LEAN thinker strategist in #CitizenDeveloper aims to reduce Cost-of-Lost-Knowledge #CoLKA curious critical thinker with a growth mindset who uses her learning agility skill to solve problems.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:15):
This is Edwin k Morris,
and you are about to embark on thenext Pioneer Knowledge Services
because you need to know a digitalresource for you to listen to
folks share their experience andknowledge around the field of knowledge
management and nonprofit work.
(00:43):
If your company or organization wouldlike to help us continue this mission and
sponsor one of our shows, email,
b y n t k@pioneer-kss.org.
(01:04):
Hi everybody. My name is Jedi.I'm based in Northeast England.
I have worked 22 yearsin engineering fields,
two years of which has been focusedon practicing knowledge management.
I'm currently workingin oil and gas field.
I create value by applyinganalog between different fields.
One of the best advices I have receivedwas to meet customers where they are,
(01:28):
don't make them to cometo you. I use this, uh,
personal knowledge managementapp, uh, named snip it.
Use AI enhancement to get the body of
each podcast and you can snip it from
them and you can captureit, voice and text as well,
(01:51):
like a knowledge capturing platform,
export it to other platform anduse it like in read wise and
read it there as a likeaccumulated knowledge.
So tell me more about the snip, howlong you've been using it. I've.
Been using it, uh, five months now.
I think they are doing pilot at theminute. So I was one of the users.
(02:13):
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Which use it frequently.
So I had the opportunity to workwith them. Mm-hmm. Uh, review it, uh,
give them some feedback, so to enhanceit with the more capabilities. Uh,
I really enjoyed it. Uh.
It's an actual app or isit a web-based application?
No, it's not web based.It's an actual app.
Okay. Well keep us notifiedon the progress of that.
(02:34):
I'll have to do someinvestigation on that.
Do you see it being a corporate asset? Mm.
I'm not sure, but there areenhancing it with adding, um,
some social aspect to it.
So you can share your snip withothers and they can come and comment
on, on it and save it ontheirs so you can follow, um,
(02:55):
same minded people. Hashtag it. Mm-hmm.
when you can search for acertain topic by, by by those hashtag.
Okay. I really like it. And the,
the fact that you can exportthose into read wise and while
you are reviewing your s snipor, uh, highlight from your, uh,
Kindle or any other eBooksyou're using, text-based person,
(03:16):
you can read them if you are audio. So.
Does it give the attributionback to the source?
Does it pull in the metadataof where this snip came from?
Um, I don't think so.I think it's one way.
Depending on how many stepsdown you got from the original.
You have no idea where thiscontent came from? Uh, no.
It's, uh, it is, it's captured fromthis specific podcast from the po. Okay,
(03:38):
okay. Yes.
Yes. Good to know. 'cause you don'twanna lose that connection of the source,
right? No, no. Yeah. In in theacademic terms, it would be your, uh,
bibliography to where it came from. Areyou scared? You're still scared? I'm.
.
Oh, you are not scared. Come on.What is it with the Persians?
That when they do the rice andit gets that saffron crust on it,
(03:58):
they, they let it sit inthe, the cooker patchy.
Ah.
And the,
the big thing is that's flip it overand have that shell on the outside.
That's my favorite dish.
. . See, it's,it's, it's just a small world.
We all like to eat some foods.
How did you find yourself where youare now? What was the pathway you took?
(04:21):
Was it a direct line toknowledge management?
Uh, no, it wasn't.
I served in different engineeringfields and disciplines from tendering to
detailed design and engineering,product development, et cetera,
et cetera. When I was lookingfor a change in my career,
I was at the right time, right place. Mm.
(04:42):
When I encountered by chanceto my current job mm-hmm.
and waswondering, to give you a chance,
although I had minimum backgroundabout, uh, knowledge management.
So you had the opportunity come up andyou stepped into it and you really didn't
know what you were getting into.
Exactly..
.
I soon found out that's.
(05:04):
That's a brave step. I mean, not,not everybody does that.
No.
But I soon found out thatthere are generous communities and people out there to
support S I K M km fordepth, straight knowledge,
and so on and so forth.There are really good books,
which helped me enhance my knowledge.Also, I had few advantages.
(05:26):
One of them is personal power.During my years of service,
I built trust and respect of others,build contacts, relationships,
and expertise. Mm-hmm.,
I know how the knowledge flows in thebusiness. How does the system work?
Mm-hmm., understandingthe content, audience, customers.
You came with a,
a level of comprehension andmaturity that is really needed,
(05:51):
I think in the field ofknowledge management because you're dealing with people
and that sometimes is the problem.
Understand, I think care practitionersneed to talk. It's people language,
understand their processand culture. Mm-hmm.
and I hadthat privilege too. What.
Is your engineering degree in?
My background is mechanicalengineering. What does.
(06:11):
That mean? You builtmachines or you ran machines,
or you what?
Basically my field involvedwith, uh, structural engineering,
fluid dynamics. Hmm. Uh, whatelse? De design everything.
Every details from subsea features to
pipes to, to everything.
(06:33):
Details. Okay.
Do you see any similarity in thatframework of what you've been formally
trained in and practicedof structures and flow and
diagrams and planning and all that towhat you do now in knowledge management?
Um.
I think engineering is not justdesigns. Engineers are artists.
(06:54):
A symphony orchestra leader? Ooh.
Tell me. Yeah, tell me more about that.
.
How the world works and use understandingof system structure to identify
possible leverage actions.
So system thinking seeks tounderstand the big picture,
how elements within system change tounderstand general patterns and trends.
(07:17):
Identify the critical natureof complex cause and effect
relationship, and then make meaningfulconnection within and between the system.
So system thinking is like a loop. Observethe real world, build a mental model,
test, receive the feedbackand start another loop.
From my point of view, KM should bedealt with as a system as well. Mm-hmm.
(07:41):
?
Well, I think the first initial step,
which is observe the environmentor understand the environment is
something that most KM practitionersmay have trouble with because I
think that there's a majority oforganizations that, uh, just for, uh,
baseline here, the three prongs ofknowledge management are people,
process and technology. I think a lot oforganizations get stuck on technology.
(08:05):
Yes, I agree. But I think, um, knowledgesharing process has two parties,
knowledge provider and knowledgereceiver, or push and pull.
There are multiplefactors within each party,
which affect the successful knowledgesharing. Mm-hmm. one,
I would like to emphasize knowledgesharing intention to describe that,
I would like to refer toJonathan Heights, psychologist,
(08:25):
the analogy of Elephant and Rider.
Can you say that title overagain? I I I didn't quite hear it.
The analogy of the elephantand the rider. Okay. Thank you.
This analogy suggests thateveryone has two sides. One,
an elephant and, and a rider.
The rider represent the rationalthinker, the analytical planner,
(08:45):
the evidence-based decision maker.And the elephant on the other hand,
is an emotional player full ofenergy, sympathy and loyalty.
Who stays put packs away or rearsup based on feelings and instincts.
The elephant is often an autopilot.
It's the part of the brain that tellsus to go ahead and eat the ice cream
(09:06):
after the riders haddecided to put us on a diet
to make any change.
Uh, uh, it, it's just, it it,
it really strikes me funny because I'vehad that conversation just recently.
So it is, it's pretty funny.
So to make any change, we needto deal with three things,
(09:27):
like give direction to the rider,
meaning knowledge of how to get to thedestination, which is knowledge part.
Mm-hmm. got to motivatethe elephant tapping into emotion,
which is a long game. This is thepeople part, which you mentioned.
And third part is shapethe path for easy progress,
which is dealing withprocess and technology,
which is often the focus of changemanagement stories. For change to succeed,
(09:50):
we need enthusiastic elephants.Mm-hmm.. So, um,
although the rider holds the rainand appears to lead the elephant,
the sixth on elephant can at any timeoverpower the rider. And the rider,
although he may not knows this,
can force the elephant to go anywhereunless he appeals to him and motivate him.
Mm-hmm. in somesustainable way. Mm-hmm. .
(10:12):
So to change the elephant, we have toappeal to a fault need. In other words,
sparks come from emotion, notinformation. Mm-hmm..
So in lean terminology, we must have ananswer for what's in it for me. That's,
I think we need to dealwith in people part. Let's.
Move into what that lookslike, uh, in a km toolbox.
And some of the things that we're gonnatalk about are community of practice.
(10:35):
Tell me how you drive that elephantto go the direction you want to.
I think, uh, what I need to tapinto that emotional thing is, um,
sense of belonging orsense of proud autonomy or
individual growth. Other than that, uh,
people may think it's just a wasteof time to share my knowledge.
(10:58):
Mm-hmm.,other than this, because we,
we cannot force people to share theirknowledge by just putting processes in
because, no, it doesn't work.
Well that motivation, right. You'retalking about motivation to engage,
motivation to participate,
and not every organization is goodat getting their people to engage
(11:19):
or participate.
So what is it in a community ofpractice that makes that achievable?
I think that recognitionor that, um, people,
uh, be recognized as subject matterexperts, someone to go to that's proud.
That might be helpful. Right. Tomake them like to share. Yeah.
(11:39):
Because they get some recognition. Right?
They get recognized as peoplewant to hear what I say. Yeah.
Or though, like authority typeof things. That sense of pride.
Other than that monetary recognition,that doesn't work in long run.
Mm-hmm..
Why do you think that is?
Because, uh, people need, Ithink, um, after a certain degree,
(12:00):
money is not appealing anymore. Peopleneed to see progress progressions.
When I started, I was a junior,then I promoted to this and that,
and now I am a subject matter expert.People come to hear what I say,
see that progression, notjust my bank account..
Did you have a mentor that helped youget here? Did you have a specific,
(12:22):
somebody that helped you understandwhat you just said? Because I,
I think most 20 year olds don't knowthat. Or I, I haven't got there yet.
I'll say that.
Uh, I haven't got any specificformal mentors along the way.
I had the privilege of goodfriends, good colleagues,
informal mentors, books, attendingseminars, everything, uh,
(12:46):
podcasts. So I, um, all the time I,
I try to educate myselfand learn bits and bots.
Okay. So where did you get theinspiration to be inquisitive?
Um, I can't remember,to be honest with you.
All my life I have beenlike that. So.
It's genetic. You're just built thatway. You're just always asking questions.
(13:07):
I think I was that, but alsoI, I think, uh, both my,
my parents were like that.They wanted me to never,
to get something withoutaccept something as it is. Yes.
See why, ask why. Yes.
So you wanted to verify information.You're like, well, okay,
so you're telling me the sky's blue.Why, why you, you keep digging,
(13:31):
you dig a little more, you dig a littlemore because you want understanding.
You're, you wanna get to aplace of understanding. Yeah.
And, and in like, being in this role,
I really want to see thatsystem as well. Okay.
Why?
I'm asking the people to come andshare why they don't want actually, uh,
again, going back to that elephantmm-hmm. tapping into why,
(13:54):
why he or she doesn't want to do that.
Is it just they're busy or whythey're not interested? Yes.
Those type of things. There's.
An element, there's a hugeelement here of psychology.
You're talking about trying to understandhow people work and why they do
things to a degree.
(14:14):
So how does that show up when you'retrying to work with a steering committee?
And I guess gimme, gimme adefinition of what you're thinking.
A steering committee, howdoes it look where you're at?
The steering committee,I want them to very like,
not just a workflow tokick in and say, okay,
it's time for you to reviewthat. Mm. Mm-hmm.,
(14:34):
just like a button or something,like 10 people to machine.
I would like just, um,
I think it's part of my personalknowledge management philosophy.
Whatever I read, I highlight or take anote and I, I want to review and see,
okay, how these two have analogiesto each other and how, how can I, um,
apply these to like other fieldsfor those, um, steering company. I,
(14:58):
I really want people to have thepassion to come, but you cannot force,
uh, to people, okay, I invite youor I, uh, nominate you.
It should come from them because youcannot make changes or any procedures to
people. It should come frominside, but it's difficult.
Some people may have the passion,but mm-hmm.,
(15:18):
they don't have time or they areshy, they don't want to open up.
So it's just dealing with people.It's very difficult. What's the.
Construct of the steering committee?What's it built for? What's it,
what's its mission?
The mission is, uh, they have tocapture, uh, the bits and bobs,
those, um, critical knowledge, which isreally impactful for our next future,
(15:40):
five years or so. But it's not inthe knowledge base. Uh, they, the,
because people are not going to go andreview that addend to the knowledge
base, but they're going to see thisrefer back to knowledge base itself.
But that steering committee haveto review and put it back. So it's,
it's like a continuousknowledge capturing system, but.
(16:02):
It's mission is to steer theknowledge management function.
Is that what they're steering? Uh.
Steering, uh, knowledgecapturing function. Ah.
So they're, they're sitting on the,
I guess they'd have to be lookingoutward in the respect to technological
changes, new methods,
new instruments to help tolook at how are they going to
(16:26):
work in the future. Isthat part of it too?
Yes. And new needs, customers changingall the time. Their needs are evolving.
So we have to be rapid to capturingtheir needs and put it in the way how we
design our product.
Would you step out on some thin ice forme and tell me what you think knowledge
management is?
(16:46):
Um, for me,
knowledge management is a disciplinethat advocates developing an environment
to let the dot connection happens.So connecting people to knowledge,
knowledge to knowledgeand people to people.
That sounds pretty easy. Huh? How'sthat coming in your place? What, how?
How's that? Uh.
Connecting people to knowledge. It's,you have to know who has the knowledge.
(17:09):
So I think it's comes ontheir knowledge management,
connecting knowledge to knowledge.It means accumulate those.
So you have a basic ground, but youhave to put on, otherwise you stay back.
And I think people to knowledge whereit is. So these connections, uh,
it's very difficult and you have tohave it, like, you have to capture, uh,
as a knowledge, a management practitioner,
(17:32):
my idea is knowledgeshould be captured, um,
synchronously, but forthe use as asynchronously.
So whenever they want, yes, theyhave access to have it. Mm-hmm.
But it's continuously mm-hmm.Have to be captured. Mm-hmm.
So you're also talkingabout a lot of curation.
You can have open-ended capturean endless supply of memory
(17:56):
to store all this stuff,
but the interaction withthe consumer has to be
designed and kept up.
And there has to be somebodyin charge of curation,
meaning things that aren't neededanymore, things that are duplicated,
you know, somebody instructing inoperating a taxonomy or ontology.
(18:18):
And we're, we want to talk about taxonomy,
but these are a lot of piecesto orchestrate, you know,
to use your word, you know, as anorchestra conductor. Oh my goodness.
How do you get 'em all together? Yes.
Exactly. Because, um, lots ofdocuments are just information.
If they are not curatedfor those specific needs,
they're not knowledge searchingthose and finding those knowledge,
(18:42):
you have to have, uh,
correct taxonomy applies andthen have those ontology.
So I think that that maintaxonomy builders are those
knowledge developers themselves.Those, uh, subject matters expert.
So when they come with newideas, they have to, uh,
develop and help on todeveloping the taxonomy system.
(19:04):
And then when we curated on the knowledgemanagement system or knowledge base,
then you can link stuff to eachother, uh, as an ontology. Mm-hmm.
.
Well, isn't that that's allautomated now that just,
the machine just does all that.You don't even have to do anything.
It just happens, right?
Uh, yes.
.
(19:25):
I'm being very funny here. I come on now.
Have you ever had to sitdown and develop a taxonomy?
I'm trying. Um, I wonder that process.
well.
Okay. Well, perfect.
Then you can tell me what the pain pointsare and what people should look out
for and why is it importantto even have a taxonomy?
(19:48):
Because it's, um, it's, uh, what,what's the term? It's a science.
You cannot just say, okay, I'mgoing to tag this, tag that,
that's make it difficult. It's, uh, you,
you like that bit in I I like thatbit in those, see, decide which one,
follow those standardsinvolved and be inclusive to
(20:08):
include all the regions, all the products,
all the new technology areamazing and everything.
So that makes it on time.
And probably you need to maketaxonomy for next five years. Now,
not, not later.
Just for definition, I pull up, uh,Merriam Webster's definition of taxonomy.
(20:29):
And the first definition is thestudy of the general principles of
scientific classification.
That is a wordy way to sayyou're structuring a hierarchical
relationship,
a parent child relationshipto make finding
and storing data andinformation much easier to
(20:52):
retrieve. Let me just back up the train.
Like for most folks over 50 yearsold, I'm gonna generalize here,
that have worked in an officesetting before digital world.
The taxonomy for the mostpart was a file folder system
that was usually alphabetizedor chronological, you know,
(21:14):
it was a way to storeinformation to find it again and
make it findable in that sense.
So that is still the sameconcept of a taxonomy,
but it's a bigger, heavier lift. You know,
it's just like you were saying aboutyou can add all the tags you want,
but if I tag something awayand you tag it a different way,
(21:35):
then those two ways don't ever connect.They don't mean the same thing.
So there has to be a verystructured, a very thoughtful,
methodical way to makesystems understandable.
Because we're dealing withlanguage here. When I say, uh,
box and you say box, we mayhave two different meanings.
(21:56):
So the classification systemof a taxonomy helps to make
that clear.
Correct? Yes. And it should fit, uh, uh,
for purpose and serves theproduct you are making.
So.
You said fit for purpose.Tell me about that.
So if you are, um, going to too muchdetails and nobody is going to use it,
(22:18):
and it's make it more Yes.
Chaos. Yes. Complicated.
Yes and complicated. It's notgoing to help. No. Making, uh,
d putting different names forsomething you can, you can make. Okay.
These synonyms comes to oneend,, all that. It's,
it's make it big taskfor me to go for now.
So where are you in the build.
At the demand?
(22:38):
I'm dividing the whole taxonomy todifferent sections and different, uh,
department and trying to bring, and not,
it's something like makingdifferent community of practice,
but this is just for taxonomy,building, taxonomy, development.
So asking them, we have at the minute, uh,
these bits what we need to add. Uh,
(22:59):
so different departments cometogether and put this together.
Does your organization have a glossary?
Does it have any definitions or commonwords that are like a dictionary
kind of reference? Yes.
We have, we have thatand we have a, that's.
A great start, right? That's a, a lotof organizations don't even have that.
They.
They have a base taxonomy, butwe need to develop it further.
(23:22):
What's the slowest movingpart of this process?
I think, uh, inputs from people,
because knowledgement means is notalways their first priority. So you.
Gotta go knock on a lot of doors. Hello?
Exactly. Hello.
Everybody. I'm here to help. Yes.
So what's the future once you havethis taxonomy done? What's next?
I think after that, uh, I would like tohave a, a good, um, ontology linking,
(23:47):
making those networks in. Yeah.It, it's not going to be easy.
It's not going to be soon, butthis is the basic foundation.
Without a good taxonomy,we cannot have that. Yes.
Yes. Alright, so I want youto speak to, as a foundation,
most people start building a house.
Most people build the house and worryabout the color of the curtains before
(24:11):
they figure out what they shouldhave in the foundation. Right. The,
and what you're talking about,
a taxonomy and ontology issomething that is foundational
because it gives the wholeorganization on an enterprise level,
it gives it a structure.
Exactly. Yeah. Yeah.Without that foundation, you cannot have the, the house,
you cannot have the ontology.
(24:32):
For folks that don't know, the MerriamWebster definition of ontology is,
and this is interesting, I would nothave said this was that definition,
but a branch of metaphysicsconcerned with the nature
and relations of being.
When you think of taxonomyand you've got a tree,
(24:53):
so underneath tree, andI'm using my language,
I'm sure there's a real word that meanstree, it's probably in Latin, but,
so tree, and then underneathtree, we've got apple and orange.
Those are two different typesof tree ontology piece would
be what are connected to anorange and an apple tree that
(25:15):
show relationships. Soyou've got harvesting people,
you've got pruners, you'vegot weather patterns,
you've got all these things thatare in that arena that affect
those two types of trees. That'swhere we get to the ontology,
which is you, you think buildinga taxonomy's tough. Whoa.
(25:36):
Once you get to ontology, Imean, it's, it's a lot of work.
Looking forward to.
Yeah. She's like, yeah, yeah, I know.Yeah. She's like, yeah, I know, I know.
It's a lot of work. So whatdo you need to get that done?
Honestly, I haven't reachedto that point yet..
You need a team of 50 people. That'swhat you need. Oh my goodness. Well,
(25:59):
this has been an absolute blast. I wishyou all the success that you can gather.
Uh, it sounds like you'rethinking in the right way.
It sounds like you are preparing for asolid future. I, I wish you all the best.
Thank.
You very much, and thanks for having me.
If your company or organization wouldlike to help us continue this mission and
(26:24):
sponsor one of our shows, email,
b y n t k@pioneer-ks.org.
You have just finished our latest becauseyou need to know a public service of
Pioneer Knowledge Services.
Please join us on LinkedInand find us@pioneerkss.org.
This is Edwin k Morris,
and you are about to embark on thenext Pioneer Knowledge Services
because you need to know a digitalresource for you to listen to
folks share their experience andknowledge around the field of knowledge
management and nonprofit work.
(00:43):
If your company or organization wouldlike to help us continue this mission and
sponsor one of our shows, email,
b y n t k@pioneer-kss.org.
(01:04):
Hi everybody. My name is Jedi.I'm based in Northeast England.
I have worked 22 yearsin engineering fields,
two years of which has been focusedon practicing knowledge management.
I'm currently workingin oil and gas field.
I create value by applyinganalog between different fields.
One of the best advices I have receivedwas to meet customers where they are,
(01:28):
don't make them to cometo you. I use this, uh,
personal knowledge managementapp, uh, named snip it.
Use AI enhancement to get the body of
each podcast and you can snip it from
them and you can captureit, voice and text as well,
(01:51):
like a knowledge capturing platform,
export it to other platform anduse it like in read wise and
read it there as a likeaccumulated knowledge.
So tell me more about the snip, howlong you've been using it. I've.
Been using it, uh, five months now.
I think they are doing pilot at theminute. So I was one of the users.
(02:13):
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Which use it frequently.
So I had the opportunity to workwith them. Mm-hmm. Uh, review it, uh,
give them some feedback, so to enhanceit with the more capabilities. Uh,
I really enjoyed it. Uh.
It's an actual app or isit a web-based application?
No, it's not web based.It's an actual app.
Okay. Well keep us notifiedon the progress of that.
(02:34):
I'll have to do someinvestigation on that.
Do you see it being a corporate asset? Mm.
I'm not sure, but there areenhancing it with adding, um,
some social aspect to it.
So you can share your snip withothers and they can come and comment
on, on it and save it ontheirs so you can follow, um,
(02:55):
same minded people. Hashtag it. Mm-hmm.
Okay. I really like it. And the,
the fact that you can exportthose into read wise and while
you are reviewing your s snipor, uh, highlight from your, uh,
Kindle or any other eBooksyou're using, text-based person,
(03:16):
you can read them if you are audio. So.
Does it give the attributionback to the source?
Does it pull in the metadataof where this snip came from?
Um, I don't think so.I think it's one way.
Depending on how many stepsdown you got from the original.
You have no idea where thiscontent came from? Uh, no.
It's, uh, it is, it's captured fromthis specific podcast from the po. Okay,
(03:38):
okay. Yes.
Yes. Good to know. 'cause you don'twanna lose that connection of the source,
right? No, no. Yeah. In in theacademic terms, it would be your, uh,
bibliography to where it came from. Areyou scared? You're still scared? I'm.
Oh, you are not scared. Come on.What is it with the Persians?
That when they do the rice andit gets that saffron crust on it,
(03:58):
they, they let it sit inthe, the cooker patchy.
Ah.
And the,
the big thing is that's flip it overand have that shell on the outside.
That's my favorite dish.
We all like to eat some foods.
How did you find yourself where youare now? What was the pathway you took?
(04:21):
Was it a direct line toknowledge management?
Uh, no, it wasn't.
I served in different engineeringfields and disciplines from tendering to
detailed design and engineering,product development, et cetera,
et cetera. When I was lookingfor a change in my career,
I was at the right time, right place. Mm.
(04:42):
When I encountered by chanceto my current job mm-hmm.
although I had minimum backgroundabout, uh, knowledge management.
So you had the opportunity come up andyou stepped into it and you really didn't
know what you were getting into.
Exactly.
I soon found out that's.
(05:04):
That's a brave step. I mean, not,not everybody does that
No
But I soon found out thatthere are generous communities and people out there to
support S I K M km fordepth, straight knowledge,
and so on and so forth.There are really good books,
which helped me enhance my knowledge.Also, I had few advantages.
(05:26):
One of them is personal power.During my years of service,
I built trust and respect of others,build contacts, relationships,
and expertise. Mm-hmm.
I know how the knowledge flows in thebusiness. How does the system work?
Mm-hmm.
You came with a,
a level of comprehension andmaturity that is really needed,
(05:51):
I think in the field ofknowledge management because you're dealing with people
and that sometimes is the problem.
Understand, I think care practitionersneed to talk. It's people language,
understand their processand culture. Mm-hmm.
Is your engineering degree in?
My background is mechanicalengineering. What does.
(06:11):
That mean? You builtmachines or you ran machines,
or you what?
Basically my field involvedwith, uh, structural engineering,
fluid dynamics. Hmm. Uh, whatelse? De design everything.
Every details from subsea features to
pipes to, to everything.
(06:33):
Details. Okay.
Do you see any similarity in thatframework of what you've been formally
trained in and practicedof structures and flow and
diagrams and planning and all that towhat you do now in knowledge management?
Um.
I think engineering is not justdesigns. Engineers are artists.
(06:54):
A symphony orchestra leader? Ooh.
Tell me. Yeah, tell me more about that.
How the world works and use understandingof system structure to identify
possible leverage actions.
So system thinking seeks tounderstand the big picture,
how elements within system change tounderstand general patterns and trends.
(07:17):
Identify the critical natureof complex cause and effect
relationship, and then make meaningfulconnection within and between the system.
So system thinking is like a loop. Observethe real world, build a mental model,
test, receive the feedbackand start another loop.
From my point of view, KM should bedealt with as a system as well. Mm-hmm.
(07:41):
Well, I think the first initial step,
which is observe the environmentor understand the environment is
something that most KM practitionersmay have trouble with because I
think that there's a majority oforganizations that, uh, just for, uh,
baseline here, the three prongs ofknowledge management are people,
process and technology. I think a lot oforganizations get stuck on technology.
(08:05):
Yes, I agree. But I think, um, knowledgesharing process has two parties,
knowledge provider and knowledgereceiver, or push and pull.
There are multiplefactors within each party,
which affect the successful knowledgesharing. Mm-hmm.
I would like to emphasize knowledgesharing intention to describe that,
I would like to refer toJonathan Heights, psychologist,
(08:25):
the analogy of Elephant and Rider.
Can you say that title overagain? I I I didn't quite hear it.
The analogy of the elephantand the rider. Okay. Thank you.
This analogy suggests thateveryone has two sides. One,
an elephant and, and a rider.
The rider represent the rationalthinker, the analytical planner,
(08:45):
the evidence-based decision maker.And the elephant on the other hand,
is an emotional player full ofenergy, sympathy and loyalty.
Who stays put packs away or rearsup based on feelings and instincts.
The elephant is often an autopilot.
It's the part of the brain that tellsus to go ahead and eat the ice cream
(09:06):
to make any change.
Uh, uh, it, it's just, it it,
it really strikes me funny because I'vehad that conversation just recently.
So it is, it's pretty funny.
So to make any change, we needto deal with three things,
(09:27):
like give direction to the rider,
meaning knowledge of how to get to thedestination, which is knowledge part.
Mm-hmm.
which is a long game. This is thepeople part, which you mentioned.
And third part is shapethe path for easy progress,
which is dealing withprocess and technology,
which is often the focus of changemanagement stories. For change to succeed,
(09:50):
we need enthusiastic elephants.Mm-hmm.
although the rider holds the rainand appears to lead the elephant,
the sixth on elephant can at any timeoverpower the rider. And the rider,
although he may not knows this,
can force the elephant to go anywhereunless he appeals to him and motivate him.
Mm-hmm.
(10:12):
So to change the elephant, we have toappeal to a fault need. In other words,
sparks come from emotion, notinformation. Mm-hmm.
So in lean terminology, we must have ananswer for what's in it for me. That's,
I think we need to dealwith in people part. Let's.
Move into what that lookslike, uh, in a km toolbox.
And some of the things that we're gonnatalk about are community of practice.
(10:35):
Tell me how you drive that elephantto go the direction you want to.
I think, uh, what I need to tapinto that emotional thing is, um,
sense of belonging orsense of proud autonomy or
individual growth. Other than that, uh,
people may think it's just a wasteof time to share my knowledge.
(10:58):
Mm-hmm.
we cannot force people to share theirknowledge by just putting processes in
because
Well that motivation, right. You'retalking about motivation to engage,
motivation to participate,
and not every organization is goodat getting their people to engage
(11:19):
or participate.
So what is it in a community ofpractice that makes that achievable?
I think that recognitionor that, um, people,
uh, be recognized as subject matterexperts, someone to go to that's proud.
That might be helpful. Right. Tomake them like to share. Yeah.
(11:39):
Because they get some recognition. Right?
They get recognized as peoplewant to hear what I say. Yeah.
Or though, like authority typeof things. That sense of pride.
Other than that monetary recognition,that doesn't work in long run.
Mm-hmm.
Why do you think that is?
Because, uh, people need, Ithink, um, after a certain degree,
(12:00):
money is not appealing anymore. Peopleneed to see progress progressions.
When I started, I was a junior,then I promoted to this and that,
and now I am a subject matter expert.People come to hear what I say,
see that progression, notjust my bank account.
Did you have a mentor that helped youget here? Did you have a specific,
(12:22):
somebody that helped you understandwhat you just said? Because I,
I think most 20 year olds don't knowthat. Or I, I haven't got there yet.
I'll say that.
Uh, I haven't got any specificformal mentors along the way.
I had the privilege of goodfriends, good colleagues,
informal mentors, books, attendingseminars, everything, uh,
(12:46):
podcasts. So I, um, all the time I,
I try to educate myselfand learn bits and bots.
Okay. So where did you get theinspiration to be inquisitive?
Um, I can't remember,to be honest with you.
All my life I have beenlike that
It's genetic. You're just built thatway. You're just always asking questions.
(13:07):
I think I was that, but alsoI, I think, uh, both my,
my parents were like that.They wanted me to never,
to get something withoutaccept something as it is. Yes.
See why, ask why. Yes.
So you wanted to verify information.You're like, well, okay,
so you're telling me the sky's blue.Why, why you, you keep digging,
(13:31):
you dig a little more, you dig a littlemore because you want understanding.
You're, you wanna get to aplace of understanding. Yeah.
And, and in like, being in this role,
I really want to see thatsystem as well. Okay.
Why?
I'm asking the people to come andshare why they don't want actually, uh,
again, going back to that elephantmm-hmm.
(13:54):
why he or she doesn't want to do that.
Is it just they're busy or whythey're not interested? Yes.
Those type of things. There's.
An element, there's a hugeelement here of psychology.
You're talking about trying to understandhow people work and why they do
things to a degree.
(14:14):
So how does that show up when you'retrying to work with a steering committee?
And I guess gimme, gimme adefinition of what you're thinking.
A steering committee, howdoes it look where you're at?
The steering committee,I want them to very like,
not just a workflow tokick in and say, okay,
it's time for you to reviewthat. Mm. Mm-hmm.
(14:34):
just like a button or something,like 10 people to machine.
I would like just, um,
I think it's part of my personalknowledge management philosophy.
Whatever I read, I highlight or take anote and I, I want to review and see,
okay, how these two have analogiesto each other and how, how can I, um,
apply these to like other fieldsfor those, um, steering company. I,
(14:58):
I really want people to have thepassion to come, but you cannot force,
uh, to people, okay, I invite youor I, uh,
It should come from them because youcannot make changes or any procedures to
people. It should come frominside, but it's difficult.
Some people may have the passion,but mm-hmm.
(15:18):
they don't have time or they areshy, they don't want to open up.
So it's just dealing with people.It's very difficult. What's the.
Construct of the steering committee?What's it built for? What's it,
what's its mission?
The mission is, uh, they have tocapture, uh, the bits and bobs,
those, um, critical knowledge, which isreally impactful for our next future,
(15:40):
five years or so. But it's not inthe knowledge base. Uh, they, the,
because people are not going to go andreview that addend to the knowledge
base, but they're going to see thisrefer back to knowledge base itself.
But that steering committee haveto review and put it back. So it's,
it's like a continuousknowledge capturing system, but.
(16:02):
It's mission is to steer theknowledge management function.
Is that what they're steering? Uh.
Steering, uh, knowledgecapturing function. Ah.
So they're, they're sitting on the,
I guess they'd have to be lookingoutward in the respect to technological
changes, new methods,
new instruments to help tolook at how are they going to
(16:26):
work in the future. Isthat part of it too?
Yes. And new needs, customers changingall the time. Their needs are evolving.
So we have to be rapid to capturingtheir needs and put it in the way how we
design our product.
Would you step out on some thin ice forme and tell me what you think knowledge
management is?
(16:46):
Um, for me,
knowledge management is a disciplinethat advocates developing an environment
to let the dot connection happens.So connecting people to knowledge,
knowledge to knowledgeand people to people.
That sounds pretty easy. Huh? How'sthat coming in your place? What, how?
How's that? Uh.
Connecting people to knowledge. It's,you have to know who has the knowledge.
(17:09):
So I think it's comes ontheir knowledge management,
connecting knowledge to knowledge.It means accumulate those.
So you have a basic ground, but youhave to put on, otherwise you stay back.
And I think people to knowledge whereit is. So these connections, uh,
it's very difficult and you have tohave it, like, you have to capture, uh,
as a knowledge, a management practitioner,
(17:32):
my idea is knowledgeshould be captured, um,
synchronously, but forthe use as asynchronously.
So whenever they want, yes, theyhave access to have it. Mm-hmm.
But it's continuously mm-hmm.Have to be captured. Mm-hmm.
So you're also talkingabout a lot of curation.
You can have open-ended capturean endless supply of memory
(17:56):
to store all this stuff,
but the interaction withthe consumer has to be
designed and kept up.
And there has to be somebodyin charge of curation,
meaning things that aren't neededanymore, things that are duplicated,
you know, somebody instructing inoperating a taxonomy or ontology.
(18:18):
And we're, we want to talk about taxonomy,
but these are a lot of piecesto orchestrate, you know,
to use your word, you know, as anorchestra conductor. Oh my goodness.
How do you get 'em all together? Yes.
Exactly. Because, um, lots ofdocuments are just information.
If they are not curatedfor those specific needs,
they're not knowledge searchingthose and finding those knowledge,
(18:42):
you have to have, uh,
correct taxonomy applies andthen have those ontology.
So I think that that maintaxonomy builders are those
knowledge developers themselves.Those, uh, subject matters expert.
So when they come with newideas, they have to, uh,
develop and help on todeveloping the taxonomy system.
(19:04):
And then when we curated on the knowledgemanagement system or knowledge base,
then you can link stuff to eachother, uh, as an ontology. Mm-hmm.
Well, isn't that that's allautomated now that just,
the machine just does all that.You don't even have to do anything.
It just happens, right?
Uh, yes.
(19:25):
I'm being very funny here. I come on now.
Have you ever had to sitdown and develop a taxonomy?
I'm trying. Um, I wonder
Okay. Well, perfect.
Then you can tell me what the pain pointsare and what people should look out
for and why is it importantto even have a taxonomy?
(19:48):
Because it's, um, it's, uh, what,what's the term? It's a science.
You cannot just say, okay, I'mgoing to tag this, tag that,
that's make it difficult. It's, uh, you,
you like that bit in I I like thatbit in those, see, decide which one,
follow those standardsinvolved and be inclusive to
(20:08):
include all the regions, all the products,
all the new technology areamazing and everything.
So that makes it on time.
And probably you need to maketaxonomy for next five years. Now,
Just for definition, I pull up, uh,Merriam Webster's definition of taxonomy.
(20:29):
And the first definition is thestudy of the general principles of
scientific classification.
That is a wordy way to sayyou're structuring a hierarchical
relationship,
a parent child relationshipto make finding
and storing data andinformation much easier to
(20:52):
retrieve. Let me just back up the train.
Like for most folks over 50 yearsold, I'm gonna generalize here,
that have worked in an officesetting before digital world.
The taxonomy for the mostpart was a file folder system
that was usually alphabetizedor chronological, you know,
(21:14):
it was a way to storeinformation to find it again and
make it findable in that sense.
So that is still the sameconcept of a taxonomy,
but it's a bigger, heavier lift. You know,
it's just like you were saying aboutyou can add all the tags you want,
but if I tag something awayand you tag it a different way,
(21:35):
then those two ways don't ever connect.They don't mean the same thing.
So there has to be a verystructured, a very thoughtful,
methodical way to makesystems understandable.
Because we're dealing withlanguage here. When I say, uh,
box and you say box, we mayhave two different meanings.
(21:56):
So the classification systemof a taxonomy helps to make
that clear.
Correct? Yes. And it should fit, uh, uh,
for purpose and serves theproduct you are making.
So.
You said fit for purpose.Tell me about that.
So if you are, um, going to too muchdetails and nobody is going to use it,
(22:18):
and it's make it more Yes.
Chaos. Yes. Complicated.
Yes and complicated. It's notgoing to help. No. Making, uh,
d putting different names forsomething you can, you can make. Okay.
These synonyms comes to oneend,
it's make it big taskfor me to go for now.
So where are you in the build.
At the demand?
(22:38):
I'm dividing the whole taxonomy todifferent sections and different, uh,
department and trying to bring, and not,
it's something like makingdifferent community of practice,
but this is just for taxonomy,building, taxonomy, development.
So asking them, we have at the minute, uh,
these bits what we need to add. Uh,
(22:59):
so different departments cometogether and put this together.
Does your organization have a glossary?
Does it have any definitions or commonwords that are like a dictionary
kind of reference? Yes.
We have, we have thatand we have a, that's.
A great start, right? That's a, a lotof organizations don't even have that.
They.
They have a base taxonomy, butwe need to develop it further.
(23:22):
What's the slowest movingpart of this process?
I think, uh, inputs from people,
because knowledgement means is notalways their first priority. So you.
Gotta go knock on a lot of doors. Hello?
Exactly. Hello.
Everybody. I'm here to help. Yes.
So what's the future once you havethis taxonomy done? What's next?
I think after that, uh, I would like tohave a, a good, um, ontology linking,
(23:47):
making those networks in. Yeah.It, it's not going to be easy.
It's not going to be soon, butthis is the basic foundation.
Without a good taxonomy,we cannot have that. Yes.
Yes. Alright, so I want youto speak to, as a foundation,
most people start building a house.
Most people build the house and worryabout the color of the curtains before
(24:11):
they figure out what they shouldhave in the foundation. Right. The,
and what you're talking about,
a taxonomy and ontology issomething that is foundational
because it gives the wholeorganization on an enterprise level,
it gives it a structure.
Exactly. Yeah. Yeah.Without that foundation, you cannot have the, the house,
you cannot have the ontology.
(24:32):
For folks that don't know, the MerriamWebster definition of ontology is,
and this is interesting, I would nothave said this was that definition,
but a branch of metaphysicsconcerned with the nature
and relations of being.
When you think of taxonomyand you've got a tree,
(24:53):
so underneath tree, andI'm using my language,
I'm sure there's a real word that meanstree, it's probably in Latin, but,
so tree, and then underneathtree, we've got apple and orange.
Those are two different typesof tree ontology piece would
be what are connected to anorange and an apple tree that
(25:15):
show relationships. Soyou've got harvesting people,
you've got pruners, you'vegot weather patterns,
you've got all these things thatare in that arena that affect
those two types of trees. That'swhere we get to the ontology,
which is you, you think buildinga taxonomy's tough. Whoa.
(25:36):
Once you get to ontology, Imean, it's, it's a lot of work.
Looking forward to
Yeah. She's like, yeah, yeah, I know.Yeah. She's like, yeah, I know, I know.
It's a lot of work. So whatdo you need to get that done?
Honestly, I haven't reachedto that point yet.
You need a team of 50 people. That'swhat you need. Oh my goodness. Well,
(25:59):
this has been an absolute blast. I wishyou all the success that you can gather.
Uh, it sounds like you'rethinking in the right way.
It sounds like you are preparing for asolid future. I, I wish you all the best.
Thank.
You very much, and thanks for having me.
If your company or organization wouldlike to help us continue this mission and
(26:24):
sponsor one of our shows, email,
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