Awakening Wonder: How to Reconnect with Yourself & Life with Wondr's Founder Nele Vandersmissen

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Have you ever felt like life has lost its spark, like you’re just going through the motions but missing the magic? In this episode, I sit down with the incredible Nele Vandersmissen from Wondr who has dedicated the last decade to helping people awaken that sense of wonder and deep connection.

We dive into her journey—from a childhood moment that shaped her curiosity to a life-changing awakening in Montana. Nele shares how breaking free from the mundane, deep listening, and paying attention can shift your relationships, your perspective, and your entire world.

This is a conversation about rediscovering awe, embracing presence, and stepping fully into life. If you’re ready to reconnect with yourself and find the beauty in everyday moments, this episode is for you.

✨ Tune in, take a deep breath, and let’s explore what it truly means to wake up to life.

You can find Nele's work at https://www.wondr.global/wondr-lab

or 

https://www.linkedin.com/in/nele-vandersmissen-8564bb27/

You can follow Emma at:

https://www.instagram.com/emmaritchiewellness/
https://www.facebook.com/emmaritchiewellness/

https://www.youtube.com/@emmaritchiebecomingyourwarrior

Episode Transcript

Emma Ritchie (00:03):
Hi and welcome to the Becoming your Warrior
podcast.
My name is Emma Ritchie andtoday I have got such a treat
for you.
You know, when you meet someoneand you just know they have
this really special magic aboutthem.
Well, today's guest is Mila vander Smissen, and that's how I
feel about her.
We have shared and moved in thesame friendship circles for

(00:26):
years, but today's the firsttime I've actually heard her
full story and it really blew meaway.
Nele has this gift for creatingincredible spaces where people
reconnect with themselves, witheach other, and tap into the
deep wonder of life.
And this episode we dive intothe journey that shaped her,
from a childhood spark to apowerful awakening in Montana.

(00:49):
We explore, breaking free fromthe mundane, how deep listening
transforms relationships and howsimply paying attention might
be the most powerful tool wehave If you've been feeling
stuck or disconnected.
This conversation is going tobe like a giant inspiring soul
hug.
So get comfy, take a deepbreath and let's dive in.

(01:11):
So I want to say a massivewelcome to you, neela, welcome
to the podcast.
Thank you for having me.
I'm so excited.
My first question I just wantto get straight into it is
really how can people live alife of wonder Great question.

Nele Vandersmissen (01:30):
Let's get straight into it.
For me, a life of wonder ishaving all your eyes and ears
and all your senses wide open tohow beautiful life is, to how
beautiful life is, and so topractice that it would be
starting with practicing the artof noticing things and paying

(01:51):
attention.
So I would say it's two thingsit's attention and intention.
So if you can increase yourattention, so your possibility
to be present to everythingthat's happening around you all
the time, then that willincrease your sense of wonder.
But also to be present toeverything that's happening
around you all the time, thenthat will increase your sense of
wonder.
But also to be intentionalabout how you spend your time

(02:13):
and for me, the acts of wonderthat really take your breath
away, so the moments that you'relike and you are in this moment
in time that you will remember,that has an impact on you, that
feels meaningful.
That time is sacred time andfor me something happens there

(02:34):
and if we're intentional aboutit, we can create more moments
like that.
Or we can choose to live inmore normal time, chronological
time, to live in more normaltime, chronological time, and
then we're just in a mundane wayof living in the world and
that's the difference.
So for me, living a life ofwonder means being intentional

(02:58):
about how I spend my time andmaking choices so that's
positive choices but also havingboundaries around things.
So it means I will say yes tothings that I get lit up about.
I'll say yes to things thatbring me joy, and that is
different for everybody, and Iwill try to do more of that,
because that gives me thesensation or the feeling of

(03:22):
sacred time.
So I will be doing things.
I spend a lot of time in nature.
For me there's a lot of wonderthere, but for everyone that's
different.
So I have to have boundariesaround who I spend time with and
how I spend my time too,because otherwise I'll end up in
this endless row of profane ormundane moments.

(03:48):
I would say and and I prefernot to do that I prefer to spend
more time in sacred time andbeing constantly awed or wowed
by the world.
Yeah, amazing.

Emma Ritchie (04:02):
That's a beautiful description, um mean, for
people like in the modern world.
Now, you know you talk aboutpresence and you talk about
attention, you talk aboutintention.
But right now I feel, andespecially where I live in the
city, you know people can getcaught up in the rat race.
You know people maybe aren'tbeing intentional, maybe because

(04:22):
they don't have the headspace.
I mean, do you see that a lotwith the people that you work
with, that it's hard to getpeople to come into a space of
wonder.

Nele Vandersmissen (04:33):
It is harder when you're in your normal life
and it's not your usual way ofliving.
So, for example, when I doretreats because I organize
retreats it's a lot easierbecause people are separated
from their normal routine.
So I would say the easiestingredient to create a
difference for people or anexperience of awe, is to

(04:56):
separate them from their routine.
That is the easiest way to dothat.
But if people are looking forit in their day-to-day lives,
it's possible.
You know, it's just you onlyhave to open the door and pay
attention.
But that requires intention andwillingness and I think people
are busy so it's difficult.

(05:18):
But you'll find that if you cancreate a place that is away from
routine and people don't havetheir phones et cetera, then
it's actually quite.
It comes really natural topeople.
So people will be easily awedand they'll be like wow, it was
so easy.
I just spent the whole weekendfeeling like I'm 12 years old
again.
It's incredible and it's likewell, you have that capacity

(05:40):
within you.
It's not that hard, except youknow, if you spend a lot of time
on your phone and you have awhole row of profane things that
you need to do on the weekendyou go from your dentist
appointment to your supermarket,to your da-da-da-da-da, then
you kind of you're not thatwonder prone.

Emma Ritchie (06:01):
Yeah, yeah, I love that.
And for you I mean mean youmentioned kind of people coming
out of the weekend and beinglike 12 years old.
I, I'd love to go back to toyou and where this love of
storytelling and wonder andwhere did that come from?
Where did that?
Where?
Where are the origins of thatin your life?

Nele Vandersmissen (06:23):
I love that question because I love
storytelling, so I love whenpeople ask me that For me, I
have to think back on as a child.
I grew up in a really lovingfamily, small village, lots of
nature, and never had anythingto want for, never had anything

(06:49):
that was missing.
So because of that I would say,now that I know a bit of
developmental psychology, I'msomeone who has an incredible
trust in the world and it's thegreatest gift right.
So I feel safe a lot.
That's my default mode.
So I don't have this level ofunsafety that came from when I

(07:11):
was a child or anything likethat to be traced back, which is
wonderful I'm super gratefulfor.
And my family of origin wasn'tparticularly wonder prone, so
they were very hardworking, veryhardworking people, post-war
kids, very kind ofstraightforward, practical, and

(07:36):
we were always talking about,you know, saving money and being
very it was just very logical,practical stuff.
And as a child I remember veryclearly that I was always like
there's something more, though.
There's something else that'savailable and we can't grasp it

(07:56):
here and I just know it's thereand I and I couldn't.
It was just not the way that welived life.
I would say there was always alittle element of fear, of, like
, what could go wrong andworrying, and so that was also
how I grew up, and I did all thenormal things that kids do, and

(08:17):
I got good grades, and therewas always a part of me that
thought I want to experiencesomething more, though, and I
know it exists, and I didn'tknow how to do it.
And then, when I was 10, someoneinvited me to go on an
excursion in nature with thisyouth group that had just
started in my neighborhood, andI'd signed up for it, not

(08:39):
expecting anything of it, andthese two guys with binoculars
and like total hippies, likelong hair, little glasses, the
whole thing they're standing atthe end of the street with their
you know their wellies andtheir barber code and the whole
shebang, and they're like right,we're going to take you on an

(09:01):
excursion because we live closeto a lake.
And I was like, oh, I don'tknow about this, it was the most
magical day.
So we caught butterflies andthen let them fly off again.
We looked at birds throughbinoculars and they taught us
all these different things aboutthe ecosystem.
And then, at one point, wefound this mount of sand, this

(09:28):
dune, this sand dune, and we satin it and we started looking
for fossils and I found a sharktooth and I just thought it was
the most incredible thing ever.
I was like you.
And then they were like thereused to be sharks here because
it was an ocean and I just wascompletely in awe and that was

(09:50):
the first time that I thought,okay, there's all this stuff
here that I cannot see.
So there must be more of this.
There must be more of this andI'm going to find it.
And then I got a librarymembership and I started reading
all the books aboutpaleontology and archaeology and

(10:13):
my dad would take me to thelibrary every Sunday and every
Sunday I would get five booksand read them, and then every
Sunday I would bring them backand get five more.
And, yeah, I just became anavid reader in my little village
.
That was my way, I think, toescape.
And then to escape into theforest or into nature, because

(10:37):
that one time was the first timeI'd spent time in nature in
that way.
That was so conscious.
So I'd been for a walk before,sure, but not like wow, beyond
the surface, if you look throughbinoculars or if you sit down
and dig into this dune, thissand, you might find something

(10:58):
that to me was wild.
And so now, still even tellingthe story.
And so like now, still eventelling the story, I was like
crazy, we should do that to allchildren.
But of course that's my thingthat I fell in love with.
But I still love all thosethings.
I still love libraries, I stilllove looking for fossils, I
still like birds, I still likenature.

(11:20):
So none of that has changed andthat still gives me wonder yeah
, yeah.

Emma Ritchie (11:28):
So it kind of sounds like it.
It really began in nature.
It kind of sounds like you know, because you said at the start,
like you find wonder in nature,and it kind of sounds like that
theme has followed you fromchildhood.
What are other areas thatpeople can find wonder?

(11:49):
Do you think outside of nature?

Nele Vandersmissen (11:53):
Yeah, so nature is a big one, but another
one I think people forget isother people.
So there's a type of wonderthat you get called moral beauty
, and it's when you're in awe ofsomeone else's goodness.
And it's probably my favoritetype of wonder, but it's when

(12:13):
you either it could be goodnessor talent, and I use this in my
work a lot because I trulybelieve that everybody is born
with a unique talent.
It's like a diamond in therough.
You're just meant to dig it up.
You're meant to uncover it andlet it shine, and most people
don't know how to do that ordon't know what that talent is.

(12:34):
But when we are in the presenceof someone that is shining, you
can tell.
It's like when you go.
I think last month I went to aconcert and it was a ukrainian
folklore singer and it was justincredible.
You know I had tears in my eyes.

(12:55):
It was beautiful.
She told the story of wherethese songs came from.
This was what she was meant todo.
You know, she was a singer whowas interested in history, and
so she traveled the country todig up all these old stories and
talk to the people and meet thechoirs, and so it became her
gift to the world and you couldfeel it.
There was like a transpersonalpower coming through her when

(13:18):
you're witnessing her on stageand you cannot not be moved by
that.

Emma Ritchie (13:25):
It's impossible.

Nele Vandersmissen (13:27):
So when someone or it's like you know it
could be a soccer player, itcould be any type of talent when
you're watching or witnessingsomeone do something, that is
like whoa, you know.
And I think what's beautifulabout that type of wonder,
specifically, is that if you'rein the presence of someone who
is living their gift, you know,or they're shining it, then it's

(13:50):
almost impossible not to becomecurious about that for yourself
.
You know, no one walks awayfrom that and thinks, okay,
average Monday, let's go back tothe water cooler.
Let's go back to the watercooler.
You know, like there'ssomething that happens because
of that interaction that makesyou think about wait a minute,
what am I doing with my?

Emma Ritchie (14:10):
life.
It's like inspiration, right.
When you see someone speakingfrom a place of passion and they
love it and, like you said,shining, and they're lit up and
they're really excited aboutlife.
Like you know, that's thatenergy passes on to you and,
yeah, it does inspire.
It's like athletes, or you knowpeople who it doesn't even have

(14:34):
to be somebody on a main stage.
It can be somebody who justabsolutely loves their role as a
parent or as what they do forwork or whatever it is.
But yeah, you're right, there'sa wonder of that and there's an
inner questioning.
Isn't there that you kind of go, ooh, like I want that.
You know, I want that light, Iwant that energy.

(14:55):
So yeah, yeah, beautiful.
So let's go back a little bit.
So how did you end up coming toAustralia?
When did that all happen?
I know we're jumping around alittle bit, but how did that
happen?
What called you to Australia?

Nele Vandersmissen (15:14):
I fell in love with an Australian at a
music festival in Belgium and weended up moving here, and I
don't know if I really wanted toat the time.
I was very happy where I wasand was enjoying living in
Brussels, had my life there, hada job that I really liked, and

(15:35):
his visa ran out.
So we lived there for a year,his visa ran out, and then we
decided to move here, and that'show I ended up in Australia.
We broke up, I don't know sixmonths in something like that,
and I had a visa for a year, andI hadn't enjoyed my time here
that much because, of course,our relationship wasn't working,

(15:58):
and so I didn't have time tofall in love with Australia or
put any roots down or meetpeople, and so I decided I was
going to stay for the remainderof my visa, and I also feel like
I definitely had a level ofpride, like I probably didn't
want to go back home and be.
I failed, it didn't work, andso I decided, I think, to stay

(16:35):
and to just make the most of thelast I don't know five or six
months I had left on my visa,and I thought, well, I'm going
to do that thing that everyonedoes when they go to Australia,
and I'm just going to have thebest time.
And then somehow I did.
I moved into this house on ManlyBeach with surfers and it was
just on the beach it was.
The doors were always open.
I don't think we had a lock onthe door, so people were always

(16:56):
walking in, walking out.
It was right on the beach.
So I had this, like you know,this life that was from this
sitcom life, like in Belgiumeveryone watches Home and Away
and I was like I am living onthe set of Home and Away.
Actually this is what'shappening, I know, every day.
People just walk in and they'reunder like in their beach wear

(17:19):
and and I was like this is crazy.
So and there was parties and Igot to meet lots of people
through the people I lived with,and so I had an amazing time
and I got a job and at somepoint I thought I'm having such
a great time, maybe I'll stayanother 12 months.

(17:40):
And so I got sponsored as arecruiter, because that was in
the time.
That was a job that you couldget sponsored, as I've never
been in recruitment before.
But I became a recruiter and Igot a sponsorship and then I
don't know exactly what happenedbut I'm still here.

Emma Ritchie (18:00):
How long have you been here for now?
How many years now?
18, I think, yeah, wow, it goesso fast, huh.
I know it goes so fast, yeah,and so you're working like as a
recruiter.
Obviously, you know I can seeyou just doing phenomenally well
in that space as well, butyou're in that line of work,

(18:21):
you're living in this amazingbeach house, you know, living
this very um, you know, I don'tknow like this Aussie life, um,
so to speak, but where did wasthe wonder always there for you,
like, was there even in yourwork?
Was it there?
Or or was there something morelike?

Nele Vandersmissen (18:42):
I love this question.
I think I've always known thatI didn't want to end up working
in a corporation like I alwayshad a part in me that's a little
bit allergic to too many rulesand, um, that profane way of

(19:03):
existing you know where, whereeverything is predictable and it
has to be just so and I justhave an allergy for that.
But at the time that was thething that I had to do to stay
in the country and I thought, ohwell, that's a small sacrifice
to make to stay here a littlebit longer.

(19:23):
And I didn't take that job veryseriously.
For me it was just a means toan end, like it is for many
people.
It was like for me this is away to get my visa, to get money
coming in.
And I think my wonder came frommy interpersonal relationships,
from living on the beach,because I came from a small town

(19:43):
in Belgium.
I always had the idea was goingto live overseas and so I ended
up living right on the beach inManly, australia, which was not
bad, you know.
So I guess wonder for me waslike look at where I live every
day, and I guess that'ssomething not to take for
granted, because I didn't comefrom that kind of life.

(20:06):
So for me now I live in theBlue Mountains now, but every
time I see the opera house stilland I used to see it every day
I'm like wow, look at thatbuilding.
That's just incredible.
And when you're inside of theopera house you're like I can't
believe it.
I went to a concert there a fewweeks ago and I was just in

(20:26):
tears.
The acoustics in there are sogood.
So, yeah, I think I'm I'mparticularly wonder prone as a
person, but there's definitelybeen moments in my life where
it's gone down and I canparticularly state that those
times in my life have been theleast happiest.
Yeah, yeah.

(20:47):
So for me, wonder is not likean optional thing, it's like, no
, if I want to live a life thatI'm super excited about and I
wake up and I am like let's go,there has to be an element of
that and I weave it intoeverything I do.
But in that time it definitelywas not part of my work culture,

(21:07):
because we had to be there ateight in the morning and you
couldn't leave until six.

Emma Ritchie (21:13):
I've had those jobs, I know what that's like.
And the KPIs, all the things,all the things.
And why aren't you on the phone?

Nele Vandersmissen (21:23):
All that stuff.

Emma Ritchie (21:23):
Yeah, I've definitely had those jobs.
So can we talk because youmentioned that obviously there
are times when in your lifewhere you know there has been
dips, you know there have beenchallenges, there have been
maybe obstacles, and can youtalk or can you share from your
own experience of like howyou've used the skills and the

(21:45):
tools that you you've got to, Iguess, navigate through those
darker times or those lowertimes or all those bigger
challenges?

Nele Vandersmissen (21:54):
sure, I think there's been a lot of
stumbling in the dark, to behonest, like I think I
definitely went through darkertimes without having the tools,
so I can talk to how it feelsdifferent going through them now
that I do have them, because Ido feel very strongly about this
is life and we're human andwe're always going to go through

(22:17):
ups and downs and you know theart is how do you walk through
the storm, kind of thing youknow, and so it's not about
avoiding the storm, it's aboutdancing through it or whatever
you know.
But I definitely for me, a verybig change in life came when I

(22:38):
had been, I think, working inAustralia for seven or eight
years and I'd been doingrecruitment and I think I just
gotten my permanent residencyand that was a big change for me
because it gave me the freedomthen to get another job, you
know, and to do my own thing,and up until that time I didn't

(23:02):
feel like I had that option.
So I was actually quite tightto my employer and I want to say
that it's not like I want toerase that time, because I it
gave me a sense of discipline,it gave me an appreciation for

(23:28):
what I have now and howdifferent that is.
It gave me the knowing of whatI want and what I don't want.
It gave me so many contacts.
It gave me the gift of beingable to read people really well
because I was alwaysinterviewing people.
So there's always something andI don't want to be like, oh,
that time I'll just erase itbecause that's not true.

(23:49):
But I definitely got to quite adark period where I think my
only hobby really was gettingdrunk on the weekend.
It was like, oh, I work reallyhard and we worked so hard
because often I was not outthere until 8pm, so there from
eight in the morning until eighto'clock at night, and then on

(24:09):
the, and then after that I'djust be so psyched up so we'd go
for drinks on Friday night andgo out until three or four in
the morning and then be hungover on Saturday and do the same
thing.
And, yeah, I was living on thebeach and it was great and of
course I was a lot younger andeveryone was doing that.
But there was definitelysomething in me that temporarily
went underground.

(24:30):
Like the part of me, what thatwas like there's something
bigger available disappeared.
It just kind of got caught upin that mundane way of living.
Even maybe from the outside itdidn't look that way, because
from the outside it would havelooked like boat parties and
rooftop bars and fancy clothes,and it looked really good on the

(24:54):
outside, but for me on theinside it definitely was kind of
deadening, yeah.
And I think then at one pointso I was hearing this calling
again of like there's something,there's something that you're
meant to be doing, and then Iended up going to a retreat in
Montana and that's the momentwhere everything changed.

Emma Ritchie (25:14):
Okay, let's talk about Montana.
Let's talk about what happenedthere.
Cause this.
Like you said, this is where itall changed, so talk us through
it.

Nele Vandersmissen (25:25):
I wonder if everyone has a moment like that.
I call those moments Jesuswalks where you have a moment
and you're suddenly like whatthe hell have I been doing?
And I think sometimes thosemoments are chosen and sometimes

(25:59):
they're not chosen.
So I semi-chose mine, because Ihad read this book and fell in
love with it.
And a bookshop in Barrie and Istarted reading it and
throughout the week I'd had somany synchronicities happen, but
it was uncanny.
I thought, wow, everything thatshe's talking about in this
book is happening to me and I'vegot to write it down.
So I wrote it down.
This is what happened to methis week when I was writing

(26:21):
your book, and it was this wholechapter.
And then I thought, oh, maybe Ican email it to her, you know.
And so I thought first dot,last name at gmailcom perhaps,
and so I sent it, and it was her, and she wrote me back an email

(26:49):
saying that's amazing.
I love reading this.
Thank you so much, and I justhave this feeling that I want to
invite you to this retreat thatI'm doing.
There's one more spot, becausesomeone just canceled and it's
happening in.
I think it was two weeks lateror three weeks later in Montana

(27:09):
and there's 33, there's meant tobe 33 women.
We had 33, someone justcanceled and then I got your
email so you could be taking herplace and I just said, yeah, I
will.
And I didn't look up howexpensive that was going to be.
I'm pretty sure I put all ofthat on my credit card.
I it was five flights away.

(27:32):
It took me like two days to getthere.
It was in the middle of nowhere, that was a whole thing.
But I'd said yes, so I went.
But I remember getting there.
It was a six day retreat with 33women from all over the world.
The name of the retreat wasSoul Fire and the idea was to
connect to your soul, expressyour soul truth.
And the first thing thathappened I mean I can talk about

(27:56):
this for hours, but I'll try tobe lean in my storytelling the
first thing that happened was wegathered in a circle and Sarah,
the facilitator, said welcome,we're sitting in circle and she
set the agreements of circle, soone person speaks at a time.
This is a confidential space,speak from your own experience.

(28:18):
And she just said let's just doan introduction round of who
are you and why are you here.
And as she said it.
I was like cool, no worries,I'm Nila, I work at Telstra, you
know, like your typical.
But then she gave the talk, shehad this talking piece and she

(28:39):
moved it around and the firstwoman shared and it was so
profound, like she didn't saythat, you know, she didn't say
I'm such and such and I work at,and blah, blah, blah, but it
was like I'm a woman who, youknow, and this is what I've
lived so far and this is why I'mhere and I'm serious about it.
And I was like, oh my God, shelike went there, you know, and I

(29:04):
felt this sense ofembarrassment, almost of like
she just completely ripped open.
And then it turned out,everyone just did that, you know
, and I I could feel my wholebody had this response of
something's going on and Istarted crying and shaking and,
um, I think it was the firsttime in my life I'd been in a

(29:27):
space that was so full of truth,you know, where no one was
pretending to be anyone else,there was no masks and everyone
was paying attention to what wasbeing said.
I just had a physical responseto it.
My body was like I cannothandle this, yeah.

(29:48):
And then it was my turn and Icouldn't speak.
I just shook and cried and Ieventually I said a few words,
but it was like I just can't.
I was too overwhelmed and Iremember that whole week just
falling into a heap and it feltlike I had to completely break

(30:10):
down.
I had to completely tosseverything that I'd been holding
that actually wasn't me, andthen found out that there wasn't
that much left.
You know, I had to kind ofstart over Um, and then after
that I and I also had a feelingof a calling.
So I felt very clearly thatweek whatever it is we're doing

(30:31):
here, whatever this practice is,I'm going to learn it and I'm
going to do it and this is goingto be my job.
Yeah, incredible, and I justknew from that moment.
And then everything changed andit changed really quickly.

Emma Ritchie (30:44):
Yeah, from that moment and then everything
changed, and it changed reallyquickly.
Yeah, if you were to sort ofdescribe what happened to you
like that shedding, you know theparts of you, all of that like
how would you, well, how wouldyou describe that now, like you
know, obviously facilitatingthis for so many people as well
like, how would you describewhat happened to you during that
week?

Nele Vandersmissen (31:03):
well, I would say.
I mean it was a death and arebirth, and I don't think I was
fully reborn, but it wasdefinitely a process of dying,
of like dying to all of the oldthings or the things I'd been
holding on to that gave mesafety or an identity even and

(31:27):
just stripping things off.
Yeah, identity even and juststripping things off.
So now I mean I work a lot withnatural cycles and systems and
know that nothing ever works ina straight line.
We're always going in a circleand so, just like in nature,
we're supposed to go throughautumn, we're supposed to go
through phases where things die,so that we can have fertile

(31:51):
ground again, and in thatfertile ground, when spring
comes, we can sow our seeds andet cetera, et cetera.
So for me, that moment was likea moment of autumn in my life
where I had to actuallysurrender.
Like a tree lets its leavesdrop, it's like I just have to
let it go and not worry about it.

(32:11):
And I think I was able to dothat because of the contained
environment and of course, youknow they held the space for
that, and so I felt super safein just.

Emma Ritchie (32:23):
You know, I spend a lot of time that week just
lying on the floor crying likeweeping punching, just letting,
letting it all go, huh, justletting all the facade go and,
and just in terms of that circle, obviously you said you know 33
women.
I mean, can you talk to meabout what vulnerability allows

(32:46):
for, like you know, in thatspace, when somebody is in
circle and somebody is beingvulnerable and is being raw, can
you talk to me about, like whatyou've witnessed, about the
power of that and its impact?

Nele Vandersmissen (32:59):
yeah, 100%.
I love talking about this.
There is a way of listeningthat's deeper, so I can give you
a little bit of context.
There is a framework oflistening.
So Otto Skarner talks aboutthis a lot, but he says there's
four ways, levels of listening,and the first one is downloading

(33:21):
.
So that would be.
You know, you're just takingwhat you need from a
conversation, and there's notany deep listening.
You're kind of just preparingwhat you're going to say in
return, and there's not any deeplistening.
You're kind of just preparingwhat you're going to say in
return.
And then the second level isfactual listening, which is, oh,
you need something from theother person and so you're
actually just waiting for thatone thing that they need to give

(33:42):
you, and then you take that andyou discard the rest.
And that is 90% of ourconversations.
They're transactional.
Even with our loved ones wehave transactional conversations
most of the time, and thosetransactional conversations are
also profane and keep us inprofane time.

(34:03):
And then the next level isempathic listening, and that
would be listening where youactually don't respond.
So you listen with theintention of, again,
intentionality.
You listen with the intentionto understand the person, and
when you do that, somethinghappens in the space between

(34:24):
people.
So when you share a story withme and it's not a question, but
you're sharing your experienceand I'm just listening and our
agreement is that I'm not goingto respond or react, I'm just
gonna listen to you so that youcan share everything, and then
at the end you can ask me whatyou want from me, whether I want

(34:47):
to mirror something back to youor whatever.
But you're, I'm just holdingthe space for you to share what
you want to share.
And inevitably, what will happenis that I will start imagining
what it will would be like to beyou, because all I'm doing is

(35:07):
being present.
I'm not preparing my response.
There's no other role for merather than to understand you.
So my brain response isentirely different and it will
start sinking.
Our brains will start sinkingup and, firstly, my imaginative
capacity will light up.
So I will start imagining yourstory and once that happens,

(35:31):
after a few minutes, my emotivecapacity will light up and I
will start feeling your storyand when that happens, you
create a field between peopleand it's a resonance.
I felt it many, many times.
It's absolutely magical and ata when we do circle, we say we

(35:52):
call that the moment when itdrops, it's like a dj I like
that they dropped.
They dropped and that is whenthe, when the resonant field
comes in.
So it's when the the sinkinghas happened and the people are
no longer creating their ownstory or they're just completely

(36:15):
in the story of the otherperson and they are the other
person.
And so the benefit of that, ofcourse, is that you create a
group system that's reallyresilient and caring and
empathic and all of those things.
But also what happens whenpeople are vulnerable is that,

(36:37):
and you get that emotive, thatempathic response, then your
body remembers that story.
It has a I think it's 27 timeshigher likelihood to remember a
story than it has to rememberdata.
So you will remember the storybecause of your somatic response
and actually when you're thenin a similar situation, you will

(37:01):
remember what to do becauseyou've heard that story.
So it's actually a way ofdistilling wisdom from that
field, and I think peoplesometimes now I'm excited, you
can tell, I'm like let me tellyou go for it.
You asked me to talk about myfavorite thing.

(37:22):
That's all we're here to do, um, but people sometimes, I think,
have this image or view of ofcircle or vulnerable spaces that
it's a bit woo or why would yousit around and cry, or.
And it's really not about that.
It's actually a way to distillwisdom and to get that to be

(37:46):
present amongst people and tocreate understanding.
And um, paradox, like, giveweight, give space to paradox
and possibility, and it it'sentirely magical.
And and the fourth way oflistening is generative
listening.
So it means that's like thenext level up.

(38:07):
That's the way of listeningwhere you're listening beyond
what you can see, and that'struly magical.
And I think people have allexperienced.
We've all experienced it kindof accidentally, but it happens
in ways where you're talking tosomeone and you're really
listening and you're reallypresent with them and because

(38:30):
you're having that resonancebetween you, you can see a
possibility that wasn't therebefore.
It's kind of like that fieldbetween you takes away the black
and white thinking and soyou're no longer thinking in
false dilemmas.
You're not like, oh, it'seither this or that, but
suddenly you're like, or wecould do this other thing, you
know, and that's a possibilitythat happens too in those spaces

(38:54):
.

Emma Ritchie (38:55):
Yeah, it's so beautiful.
I mean I've had some of themost profound experiences of my
life being in circle andlistening, like really
understanding, and I canactually see, like through all
four of those um levels oflistening, my own and obviously
I'm not perfect at all, but myown involvement, like when I

(39:17):
first started to sit in circle,like I could see that I was just
in that downloading, and then Isort of went into the factual
listening and then, you know, Imoved a little bit more into the
empathetic and obviously the.
The generative listening isobviously the one.
Yeah, that that, not thatthere's a goal, but yeah, that
that would be great for us allto like drop into more.

(39:39):
But it's really interesting.
Just as you were talking, I was.
I can totally see when I'vebeen like that and also like
when I slip back into those,those earlier ones that you know
the, the first and second oneas well.
So it's it's so interesting.
So and as well.
I was just thinking about whatyou were saying about you know
how people have a a biggerretention of, of when people

(40:04):
tell you a story rather than thedata.
And I was just about like,especially here in australia,
obviously we have a um, you know, a huge history, um, with our
aboriginal, um, our first peoplehere, and just about dream time
and the fact that you know thatis essentially passing down
stories and wisdom, but it'sthrough storytelling isn't it?

Nele Vandersmissen (40:26):
yeah, and that's how law is remembered,
and I definitely am not anexpert on this, so I don't want
to talk for them.
Yeah, but that's how.
In my opinion, it's one of thereasons why that is the longest
living culture on earth, andit's something that you know,
they are obviously really proudof, but we should be more proud

(40:49):
of than we currently are andmore curious about you know,
because you don't just becomethe longest living culture on
earth we should all be like.
why is that?
It should be an example, and Iam sure that wonder and
storytelling is one of thereasons, because there is.
There's not just storytelling,there is also the deep

(41:12):
connection to nature and thenatural world and a deep
listening to everything, notjust humans, but a deep
listening to everything aroundand the mystery, and it's
fascinating yeah, absolutely,absolutely.

Emma Ritchie (41:29):
Um, we, I absolutely love where we've gone
, but I'm just going to get usback, because you're such a good
storyteller and I love all ofthat and we could definitely go
down that way, but I want tojust bring us back to you're in
Montana.
You're going through this hugeexperience.
You're dropping the facade ofeverything, letting go of who

(41:49):
you know, everything that you'vehad to be, and in that moment
you have this deep wisdom, thisdeep calling where you're like I
have to learn this, I have to,I have to understand, I have to
do this and facilitate this.
So what happens for you whenyou come back from Montana?
How does this journey intocircle facilitation and beyond

(42:12):
kind of grow from you, for youfrom that stage?

Nele Vandersmissen (42:16):
um, it went very organically.
And it's a little bit annoyingto say that, because it's easier
if I say, oh, easy, I did thisand training, and then that
training and people can copythat model.
But actually what happened tome was, a few weeks later,
someone that I met at theretreat a woman from the retreat

(42:37):
said I have a friend who'scoming to Australia and you
should meet her, and she becamemy mentor and it was.
I really strongly believe thatas soon as you have a calling,
the teacher will appear andeverything will work out.

(42:57):
And I've seen that happen tomany people that I've mentored
and I've walked alongside andit's just about that moment of
epiphany and then, followingabout that moment of epiphany
and then following, you actuallyhave to also say yes because
you can say no.
You know you can keep climbingthe wrong mountain at your own

(43:18):
peril.
But yeah, I had to come down amountain, which was a little bit
annoying.
But then I met my mentor,miriam, and at the time it's
actually phenomenal now that Ilook back on it and I was like,
wow, I could not have writtenthe story any better, and that's
how that often goes.
I think she at the time was thedirector of the Ojai Foundation

(43:44):
in California.
California, which is, I think,still is an institute where they
hold rites of passage programsand teach circle facilitation.
They call it council, that'stheir tradition of circle and so
she was a director of thatplace and she is Australian.

(44:07):
So she came home to visit herfamily and my friend was like,
oh, you should meet, you'll getalong like a house on fire.
And we did.
And then she was and I was like, how do I learn?
She's like, oh, teach you kindof thing.
And then she took me along someof the things that she had
organized while she was here andI just sat with her and, yeah,

(44:27):
I learned through her and we dida few retreats together and
just learned through doing it.
And then I started doing my owncircles and my own retreats and
then after that I got to, okay,I need kind of make sure I was
ticking all the boxes.
And that was that.
It was really, yeah, kind ofeasy actually yeah, yeah.

Emma Ritchie (44:57):
And so, from, I guess, going through that
training, being mentored andagain, you know, I've spoken to
some people recently about this,about when you really line up
with your purpose and you'vejust said it perfectly like the
mentor, the teacher will appear,and in this case it sounds like
that that's what happened.
So, so, really for you.

(45:18):
At the time you'd been atTelstra and then you started
creating your own circles andgoing from there, and so really
what, what happened for you fromthat stage?
What happened next?

Nele Vandersmissen (45:32):
I mean, a lot of years passed, it doesn't
I want to say.
Now it feels really simplebecause I'm like, oh well,
everything kind of just rolledinto the next thing.
But at the time I probablydidn't experience it that way.
I think at that time I thoughtit was going quite slowly
Because, of course, I had ataste of what it could be and I

(45:52):
wanted to be that person.
You know, I wanted to beleading sold out retreats for 33
women and and that's just ajourney you know you're not
going to do that tomorrow.
You actually have to be able tohold space like that and build a
name and blah, blah, blah.
You actually have to be able tohold space like that and build
a name and blah, blah, blah.

(46:13):
So I think at the time Ithought that was going
relatively slowly, but lookingback I think it just happened at
divine timing and perfectlyfine.
And so I was getting myexperience by doing women's
circles.
I was getting my experience byco-facilitating with Miriam.
I was getting my experience byco-facilitating with Miriam and
at one point I'd started anorganization together with

(46:34):
another friend of mine called weCan Be Shiros, because we felt
very passionately I love thatname still.

Emma Ritchie (46:40):
It's so good.
It's so good.

Nele Vandersmissen (46:44):
I still walk around with that bag.
I have a bag with a logo of weCan Be Shiros on it and people
still stop me in the street,such a great name, well done.
We started an organization andit was to connect women over in

(47:04):
circle, to go on retreats and toactually hold space for women
coming into their power, theirtruth, in similar, using similar
tools and similar practicesthat we had learned at this
retreat.
I also met her at that retreat,so we did that and it was kind

(47:25):
of it was amazing.
The retreats we did wereamazing, I loved it and it was
just not a profitable businessfor us, you know, at that time.
And so after I think two years,we were kind of like yeah, yeah
, and we had different things wehad going on.
I still had a job and, um, atone point I got an email really

(47:50):
randomly from someone in NewYork saying Hi, my name is Jill
from Snap.
We heard that you're trained incouncil, can we have a talk,
can we have a chat?
And I just was really busy atthe time because I had my own
company and I was still workingand I was also doing grassroots

(48:11):
activism work and I just waslike delete.
So I didn't read, I didn't knowwhat Snap was, didn't make
sense, so I didn't read the like, I deleted the email.
And then, I think a month later, she emailed me again she said,
hi, it's Jill from Snap.
I'm not sure if you got myemail, but Miriam Jones gave me

(48:33):
your address.
And then I was like, oh, andMiriam's my mentor.
I was like, oh, this is someoneMiriam knows, I better talk to
her.
And then I accepted a meetingwith her and I had no idea what
this meeting was going to beabout.
And I just went to this meetingand I was like hey, and then,
probably 20 minutes into themeeting, I was like she works at

(48:55):
Snapchat, what Like I don'tunderstand.
And I was like, oh, they callit Snap, like it was.
I had not paid attention at allto what was going on.
And then in the end, what theywanted was someone to come into
the Sydney office and do one daya week of circle council with

(49:16):
their team.
And I was like so confused withthat.
You do circle with your team ina corporation.
That's so weird, because myexperience with circle up until
that point had been everybodycries, you know.
You do Circle with everyone, meincluded, and so I couldn't.

(49:40):
That was just the only way thatI had experienced it and how I
used it, because I was doingtransformational work with using
Circle and I just thought thatwas its only application.
So I was like, so do people cry?
She said, no, we tell stories.
I'm like about what, though?
I'm so curious.

(50:02):
So I remember coming off thatcall and being just curious,
just thinking, wow, I am socurious about how they do that,
because, of course, I was sopassionate about Circle already,
and the other thing was that Ireally wanted to make this my
job, and I hadn't really beenable to figure that out and I

(50:25):
was manifesting, or I had thisdream of like I just want to do
this because I see how impactfulit is.
Every time we do a retreat,every time we do a gathering,
women are changed by it.
I just want to be able to dothis work and get paid for it,
and get paid for it well, andfor it to be celebrated, not for
it to be somewhere on the edgeof society, you know, but like

(50:49):
this should be daily life.
And so that was the vision Ihad, or the dream I had.
And then suddenly I get thiscall and I was like, wow,
imagine, and I started workingthere.
So I said yes, and it was anincredible.

Emma Ritchie (51:03):
Snapchat.
This is Snapchat.
Yeah, so massive, massiveglobal social media.
Yeah, the whole thing.

Nele Vandersmissen (51:12):
The whole thing, and so I started working
there one day a week.
It was an incredible salary.
I got a day rate for the first,I think, year I was there and I
started doing council circlewith their teams, so everyone in
that company has access to sitin circle together.

(51:32):
And it was incredible.
It just blew my mind and I hada huge budget to take people on
amazing retreats.
I had a huge budget to do artwith them to, you know, make
beautiful spaces so that when wesat in circle there was fresh

(51:54):
flowers and all of this stuff.
It was like my wildest dreamcome true yeah, incredible.

Emma Ritchie (52:01):
and did you?
I mean what?
What did you find the maindifference?
Because obviously, everythingthat you've been doing to this
point has been circles thatyou've organized, but now you're
going into like a huge, youknow corporation.
What were the main differencesor challenges that you faced
like working with circles in acorporation?

Nele Vandersmissen (52:25):
I mean, for me personally it was a huge
change because I had to test myown beliefs around what makes a
good circle, because for me agood circle was like someone has
a breakdown or a breakthrough,and of course you don't really
do that because people also haveto work.
So you can't really do deepshadow work with people and we

(52:49):
would be together and, you know,have one hour where we create
spaces of connection, and so forme it took a lot of inner work
to not need that outcome inorder to feel like I'd done a
good job.
You know, just because they'rein an office, so people would
come into my space and we wouldsit there for an hour and then I

(53:12):
could never go over time.
So that was another thing.
For me, circle is sacred and soyou don't mess with sacred time
.
So if at a retreat I don't, Idon't interrupt a story.
You know someone's telling astory, I would never say sorry,
you know we have to go toaccounting.

(53:33):
I would just let them tell thestory, and sometimes it goes an
hour over because you're just inthat moment.
But in a corporation you get anhour and they have to be.
You know, actually you get 55minutes, because people need
their five minutes to get backto their next meeting or
whatever they're doing.

(53:53):
So there was a really, reallydisciplined way of facilitating
that was trickier for me.
I had to learn to be like right, I have to be so tight on my
facilitation that this circle isgoing to be exactly 55 minutes,
and so I learned a lot fromthat.

(54:13):
And also to honor the level ofdepth that people are at is not
it's not my decision or likeit's not my judgment.
You know it's not up to me tojudge what is good depth or not.
Everybody is at a differentlevel of connection and depth

(54:34):
and it's perfect just the way itis.
So I would say that the mainchallenge for me was all of my
inner beliefs that I builtaround it, that I'd built around
it, and having to look at howcan I actually be a more humble
facilitator and more open andmore curious, instead of putting

(54:56):
my entire belief system on thisgroup of people that are a
completely different demographicthan what I am used to.

Emma Ritchie (55:05):
Yeah, how incredible is the learning you
know, just to take what you'velearned from one space and take
it into another and to have to,you know, I guess have to adapt
yourself, you know, and, likeyou said, adapt your own belief
and your own value.
System around what is abreakthrough, you know.

(55:25):
When you're facilitatingsomething, yeah, system around
what is a breakthrough, you know.
Um, when you're facilitatingsomething, yeah, what would?
What would you say is your?
You may have already mentionedit, but what would you say was
your biggest learning fromworking in that environment,
working at snapchat and um manythings I mean professionally.

Nele Vandersmissen (55:48):
For me it was learning how to work with
teams from all differentcultures and countries and just
to learn that this tool worksfor everyone.
So I had teams in China, inUkraine, in Saudi Arabia, in
Dubai that I supported withCircle and it required some, you

(56:12):
know, cultural competence andlearning for sure, but in
essence the tool remains thesame and it works for everyone.
And so maybe that wasn't alearning as such, but kind of by
doing it over and over again, Igot to gather the evidence and
the confidence in that, so thatnow I feel very sure of that

(56:35):
fact and I can talk to thatwithout hesitation and be like
oh, this works everywhere, youknow.
And the other thing I learnedis when you get people in that
space of empathy for each other,your whole culture changes.
So you don't have thatprofanity so much.

(56:57):
I mean you still have it.
People still have to go tomeetings and do KPIs and stuff,
but if you can, in yourorganization, have moments of
ritual and of sacred time, itjust changes everything.
Like people loved working there,they loved working there.
It was the funniest thing ever,but we had these hoodies.

(57:19):
They would send us hoodies andall this merch right.
It was a thing and when I firstjoined the company I thought
are you joking?
What is with all thismerchandise Like?
I remember joining and theysent me a box.
It was like a welcome to thecompany.
Here's a whole new outfit foryou.

Emma Ritchie (57:42):
Please wear this to work on Monday.
This is your uniform.

Nele Vandersmissen (57:49):
I was like you'll find that no one wears
this.
You know, can you imagine?
Like I was just thinking anyother company I worked for
before, like no way would I'veworn any of that merchandise.
Like no way.
That was just not a thing.
But anyway, anyway, I went towork.
Everyone in that companyroutinely would just wear all

(58:11):
their merchandise from thecompany and it was like it was a
serious thing, because everyyear you would get a new jumper
and a new t-shirt and so and itwas a thing in the company
someone from the company wouldget to design it.
It was a competition.
So, you know, you had like fivejumpers or four jumpers and
then people were like, oh, isthat your 2018?

(58:31):
You know, that's the wholething, um, but I think that just
shows that people were reallyproud to work there and to be
part of that culture and theydefinitely invested a lot of
money in it and it felt, feltreally homely and people still
because I left almost threeyears ago now and I still talk

(58:56):
to those people, we still meetfor drinks, we still chat, and
it's that kind of moment in timethat you will never forget.
And I don't feel the same wayabout all the jobs I had before.
So it's different.
So there's that thing.
I truly believe now that if youcan create sacred time in any

(59:16):
community or culture and anyonewould know, that's why ritual
exists.
Like, if you look in Bali,those people are so in community
, so together, because they haveall this ritual experience
together and that's their sacredtime.
But to create that in aninnovative, modern way for an
organization or a community islife changing and that's what

(59:38):
brings people together, keepsthem together, makes them look
back on that time and go thatwas different, wasn't it?
Yeah, it was really different,why?
Well, that's why.

Emma Ritchie (59:49):
Yeah, incredible, incredible.
Can we talk about wonder?
I know we've been talking aboutwonder, the experience of you
know taking in things but I wantto talk about the wonder that
you've created, which has aslightly different spelling

(01:00:10):
w-o-n-d-r instead of d-e-r.
So tell me about wonder, yourwonder so my wonder is a company
.

Nele Vandersmissen (01:00:22):
It started in 2002.
So what we do as a company, orwhat I do, is bring more sacred
time to people.
In a way that's the easiest wayto say it it's to create those

(01:00:46):
doorways of possibility, whetherthat's for an individual or for
an organization.
So what that looks like is forindividuals I run online
programs, I have an onlinecommunity and I do retreats and
for companies.
Similarly, for companies andfor companies, I specifically

(01:01:08):
work with companies aroundoff-sites and retreats where we
take people and we create thatmoment in time that's memorable
for them, where they have thetransformation.
So, at the core, everything Ido has transformation in it and
everything has that doorway towonder or possibility.
So it's all about creating moresacred time in your day to day

(01:01:33):
and how that, when you do that,that's where the possibility
lies.

Emma Ritchie (01:01:37):
Yeah, I mean that's beautiful and I think,
like where we are in the worldright now.
We talked about the busyness atthe start.
We talked about, you know,people being more on their
laptops, on their devices, youknow, more in that work hustle
mode, I just think there isgoing to be so much more of a

(01:02:00):
demand for the kind of work thatyou're doing, because people
are going to be looking for waysto not disconnect but actually
connect to themselves.
Yeah, and I think it's reallybeautiful now because you've,
you know, because you've hadthis experience of full

(01:02:22):
facilitation of Circle, but thenalso this corporate you know
experience that you had withSnapchat, with one of you know,
by the sounds of it, one of themost invested companies in
people.
I mean, what a gift that you'vegot both sides of that coin to
bring to your own company now,yeah, I really love that.

Nele Vandersmissen (01:02:43):
Yeah, and it's I really think it's nice
that you see that, because Ifeel the same way about it.
There's something reallyspecial or particular about
being able to have my feet inboth worlds and to feel
comfortable is very part of myidentity, because actually a lot

(01:03:07):
of the work I do is spiritualin nature but it's so grounded.
So for me spirituality ispresent all the time, even when
you're in a corporation.
It's not something thatrequires a million tools and the
and you know the typical.
It doesn't have to look acertain way.

(01:03:27):
It can be, can be somethingdifferent for everyone, but I
feel like I'm able to bring someof those tools into
corporations without making them, without making that threshold
too high.
So it's almost like I alwayssay I'm a double agent.
It's like I come in and peopledon't know that and they have a

(01:03:52):
type of sacred experience, eventhough there's no chanting or
there's no smoke.
You know, like there's none ofthose things.
It's just through connectingwith other people and through
using some of the frameworksthat I know to work in in group
facilitation, and it has aspiritual element.
It's just not in the way thatwe're used to and I think

(01:04:16):
actually that's one of mystrengths and I'm so grateful
for that.
And what's important, I think,to note about it is that
sometimes we're in a situationin life I think to note about it
is that sometimes we're in asituation in life I think, that
we don't choose.
So like I didn't choose to stayat a recruitment company for
five years where I was actuallydeeply unhappy.

(01:04:38):
But if I hadn't done that, or ifI didn't have the need to work
in a corporation to get my visafor Australia, I would have not
done that and I would have nothad the skillset or the
understanding that I do have now.
So everything works outperfectly that way, and and
knowing that now makes me thinkof things differently.

(01:05:00):
So now, if ever, if eversomething doesn't go quite my
way, or then I'm like okay,instead of being like doesn't go
quite my way.
Or then I'm like okay insteadof being like, why is this
happening?
Or I'll just be like, okay,because of this, I'm going to
understand something I do notyet understand because of this.
So I'm just going to begrateful for it in a way, and
not sit here and moan about it,but I'm just going to accept it

(01:05:23):
and dance with it and figure itout, and one day I will
understand why this thing cameonto my path, and it's a whole
different way of being with thatobstacle than if I was to be
just miserable about it.

Emma Ritchie (01:05:36):
Yeah, absolutely, and I think it's like I know
we've talked about this beforeit's that kind of that macro
vision of life that you know,that bird's eye perspective,
where it's like you don't yetknow why things happen the way
they're happening, and you knowthat can be that sad things or
challenging things can happen,but it's like it will be

(01:05:56):
revealed and that's where thattrust comes in, doesn't it?
It's just like you said, youwere in this recruitment company
for five years.
You didn't want to be there,but because you know you wanted
to get your permanent residency.
It's like that's a choice thatyou made and that led you into
like, partying a lot, you know,at the time, because you were
like working too much and youwere burning, you know, burning

(01:06:18):
out and that led you to Montanaand that led you to have that
breakthrough.
And then that led you to getintroduced to Miriam, your
mentor.
And then, you know, snapchatcame, and then here you are and
you've created this incrediblecompany called wonder, which is
the thing that you have hadsince you were a child.

(01:06:39):
Um, it's such a perfect namefor your company.
It's like, of course, you aregoing to have a company called
Wando, isn't it incredible?
And yet that's just where youare right now on this timeline,
and you know, who knows what'sto come.
But I do want to kind of ask aquestion which is like I guess,

(01:07:04):
who do you think on your journeyof life you didn't have to be,
but for you to be the personthat you are now and to offer
this out into the world, who doyou feel you had to become?
Who did you have to be?

Nele Vandersmissen (01:07:25):
Well, the most cliche thing to say, which
is the truth, is I had to becomemyself and um, and that means I
had to unbecome all the thingsI was not, yeah, and, and that
took a while.

Emma Ritchie (01:07:43):
Yeah.

Nele Vandersmissen (01:07:44):
It was a a time of really going.
Do I even like this?
Even do I like this person thatI'm hanging out with?
Is this the right person for me?
Is this the right place for me?
And I'm now in a place in mylife where I make very
intentional choices abouteverything and how I spend my
time and where, and even whichcompanies I work with, etc.

(01:08:07):
And that wasn't always the case.
So I had to really unbecome theperson.
That was non-intentional.
I think there's definitely ayoung woman or a young girl in
me that was just thrilled to beinvited anywhere you know and
just would say yes to everythingand had no boundaries because I

(01:08:30):
was, you know, raised in areally safe family system.
So for me, I didn't have tobuild this system of watch out,
which I didn't have.
So that's the shadow, I guess,of having lots of safety is I
had so much safety and trust inthe world that I don't have this
radar for danger at all.

(01:08:50):
I'm always like everything willbe fine and so far that's gone
quite well.
You know par a few times, but Ido think that as a young woman
moving in the world, I've livedin different countries and I had
to learn to become myselfoutside of that family system.
That was so safe and soprescriptive and no one had

(01:09:14):
given me a handbook for that.
No one was like oh, this is howyou become yourself, or even
that's actually what you shouldbe doing.
You know, my handbook was likeact normal, walk in line, make

(01:09:36):
sure you make enough money topay your bills and, just like,
don't ever make a ruckus.

Emma Ritchie (01:09:38):
You know, turns out, but it's so true, it's so
true, it's so true, it's so true.
So for, like, anyone who islistening to this and is kind of
like, okay, you're talkingabout becoming yourself, right,
but you and I, we're just sathere and we are, we are
ourselves, you know, as, as wesee it, but you know,

(01:10:01):
understanding, like you,obviously, that the start of
that and it may have startedbefore, but for you it sounds
like a big part of that undoingand dissolving and removing the
parts of you happened in montana.
For anyone else out there who'slistening and is kind of like,
well, I'm just me, I don't knowhow to be another way, right,
but it's, it's all about ourinherited, you know, belief

(01:10:24):
systems, it's like be the be thegood girl, the good boy.
You know, the pleaser, theperfectionist.
Like we don't even, we're noteven aware of it sometimes that
we are just essentially actingout the belief systems of our
family.
And and and so how would whatwould be your advice to somebody
who's kind of sat there going,yeah, like I feel like there's

(01:10:46):
something more, I feel likethere's some more joy or more
wonder that I can experience inlife, like what would you say to
them to start to chip away atthemselves?

Nele Vandersmissen (01:10:57):
The first thing I would say is stop doing
everything that you don't enjoy,like anything that you're doing
because you think you should doit.
Stop it, don't do that, no more.
And I know that a lot of people.
So I'm going to explain that.
I know that a lot of people arelike, yes, but you need to have

(01:11:19):
discipline in life and stuff.
And I'm like, yeah, I amdisciplined about some things,
but I'm very disciplined mostdisciplined about my joy and my
pleasure, and that's actuallywhat is my strongest foundation.
So I have a hard no for thingsthat are like not fun for me.
So even I'm someone who ishealthy.

(01:11:41):
I eat healthy, but I likehealthy food, so I make time to
cook delicious food that ishealthy.
You know I hardly drink becausealcohol just doesn't serve me.
Occasionally I love going to aparty and drinking, but it
happens once every three monthsor so.
So for me it's like what do Ienjoy?

(01:12:03):
Like I love going for walks.
I will never, ever you willlike won't catch me dead at some
sort of workout where you haveto lift weights and someone
yells at you and all of thatstuff.
It's like hell.
No, not in this lifetime isthat going to happen to me.
I just don't enjoy that.
So, and I think I did all thosethings when I was younger

(01:12:25):
because I was like, well, I haveto look a certain way, I have
to do this, and that's how youkind of get off track in my
experience.
So now I spend a lot of timedancing because I love dancing.
I go for long walks in naturebecause that's my joy.
So stop doing everything thatyou think you should be doing or
people are telling you youshould be doing, but you
actually don't enjoy.

(01:12:45):
People are telling you youshould be doing but you actually
don't enjoy.
And of course, sometimes youhave to negotiate with other
people around that.
But I feel like that alreadywould take some stuff off your
plate and then start by beinginquisitive about what are the
things that really light me up,what are the things that
actually, when I was younger,would keep me up until the

(01:13:06):
middle of the night, what werethe things I was curious about
when I was a child.
I call that wonder tracking.
I do a practice with peoplewhen they first join the Wonder
Lab.
It's the first thing they get.
It's this meditation of half anhour where you track your
wonders and it basically takesyou back to all the moments in
your life where you had yourbreath taken away, because it's

(01:13:27):
different for everyone.
Takes you back to all themoments in your life where you
had your breath taken away.
You know, because it's it'sdifferent for everyone.
People have their.
People are wonder, prone fordifferent things, but it's
information about who you areRight.
So for me, it's often like Ican be at a waterfall and be
like are you?
kidding me.

Emma Ritchie (01:13:42):
It will never get old.

Nele Vandersmissen (01:13:43):
And it just takes my breath away and I love
it.
Or, you know, sleeping underthe star is divine, but other
people don't want to do that,you know.
Other people are like put me ina football stadium with 20,000
people that are yelling andthat's like my happiest moment,
Great.
Do more of that, you know.
But don't go to have high teaif that's not your jam.

(01:14:06):
Don't go to have high tea ifthat's not your jam, like it's
not my jam.
That's a good point, but Idon't like that kind of stuff.
So now, when people invite meunless it's my best friend, who
you know I'm just like I'm sorry, but I'm not going to come to
that.
I don't enjoy it.

Emma Ritchie (01:14:32):
So it's really the biggest advice is stop doing
what you don't enjoy and stopdoing more of what you do enjoy
and train your attention muscle.
Yeah, that's such beautifuladvice and I think it's, you
know, just coming back to it'sjust like that's when your shine
comes through right, that'swhen you're lit up, when you're
doing the things that you loveand that make you, as an
individual, happy.
That's when you know you talkto people and that's when that

(01:14:53):
passion comes through right,because you're living the life
that you're creating, ratherthan doing things for other
people or being, you know, thepeople pleaser, which you know
self-confessed that was me andjust following whatever anyone
wants you to do.
You know poor boundaries, whereit's like, yeah, when you're
making that choice for yourselfI love doing this and I'm going
to make a point of doing thisfor myself that's when that

(01:15:17):
energy and that natural flowstarts to come through.

Nele Vandersmissen (01:15:19):
So, yeah, such and there's really
something.
I think when you see a personthat is in that flow, you can
right there's something magneticabout them and I can tell.
I used to be envious of thosepeople and I see that sometimes
now, when I facilitate a biggroup of people, I can feel that

(01:15:41):
projection sometimes frompeople because I'm there doing
what I love and I'm getting paidfor it and it's epic and it's a
lot for people sometimes.
So I can feel that projectionof I call that sacred envy,
because you actually want thatshine and you want that thing
that that person has.
And I'm, and I think when youhave sacred envy it's such a

(01:16:03):
great doorway because then youcan become curious about what is
the thing for you that's goingto get you to that place.

Emma Ritchie (01:16:10):
Yeah, so beautiful .
I love that.
I haven't heard of that before.
That's a good one, neela.

Nele Vandersmissen (01:16:16):
Sacred envy.

Emma Ritchie (01:16:17):
I love it, I love it.
And where can people find yourwork?
What's the easiest way forpeople to find out what you do
and find your website?
And?

Nele Vandersmissen (01:16:28):
sure, the website is w-o-n-d-r.
Dot global.
And then I am mostly active onInstagram, which is the same at
wonderglobal, and I post alittle bit on LinkedIn, um, but
not not every day that's coming,maybe, and and what's what's in

(01:16:53):
store for you?

Emma Ritchie (01:16:54):
like with wonder, like where you know what, what's
your plans with this incrediblecompany of yours?

Nele Vandersmissen (01:17:00):
well at the moment.
Um, I'm running, so I runfacilitator trainings for people
who want to learn what I do,and that is growing rapidly.
So there's a lot of interestfor that.
So I am considering broadeningthat and having more trainings
available, but also deepeningthe levels of training that we

(01:17:24):
have.
So right now you can learn howto be a circle facilitator the
levels of training that we have.
So right now you can learn howto be a circle facilitator.
And at some point I also wouldlove to teach people how to
design and facilitatetransformational experiences for
groups.
So, for example, how do you dothis in a corporation?
How do you bring sacred timeinto corporations and run a

(01:17:44):
training on that?
So I think at the moment thetraining part of the
organization is doing reallywell and growing really rapidly.
So I feel like the energy isthere and I am turning towards
that.
So that's probably where myattention is going to go in the
coming months.
And also the retreats are goingreally well.

(01:18:06):
So there's going to be moreretreats.
I have one signature one calledWild Wonder, which is like
dipping your entire body intowonder for a weekend.
It's delightful and people comeaway from that so enchanted.
That's a women's retreat andthose are really popular, and
I'm going to run my firstwomen's rite of passage this

(01:18:28):
year, which is going to bebasically what I did in Montana.
So the circle comes around inOctober this year fantastic.

Emma Ritchie (01:18:37):
Oh, I'm, I'm so excited for you and I'm so
excited to you know, justwitness, witness you over the
years and and just see whatyou're creating, and you know,
you are definitely aninspiration to so many people,
myself included.
I very much like look to youand I'm like, oh yeah, she's
doing what she's meant to bedoing, so you're very inspiring
to me.

(01:18:57):
There's no sacred envy.
I'm not I am inspired.
There's sacred inspiration.
But, yeah, thank you so muchfor coming on the podcast today.
It's honestly, it's been solovely.
Just obviously we've known eachother for for quite some years,
but it's just been so lovelyfor me just fill in the gaps of

(01:19:19):
the things that I didn't knowabout you and, um, yeah, just to
witness you in your full shineand, yeah, I'm just so proud of
you and so excited for what's tocome.
Thank you so much.

Nele Vandersmissen (01:19:29):
It's been such a privilege and such a
pleasure, and now I feel all litup.

Emma Ritchie (01:19:33):
That's fantastic.
Thank you so much.
Thank you, thanks, neela.
Thanks for listening today, andif this episode helped or
inspired you, just remember toshare it to friends or family

(01:19:54):
who could also use someinspiration.
Today, we are all about sharingthe love.