September 2, 2022 • 40 mins
Dr. Ralph Ford, chancellor of Penn State Behrend, talks with Sam Epps, a 1995 Behrend alumnus, about campus diversity, alumni engagement and the future of labor unions. Originally recorded Aug. 23, 2022.
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Dr. Ralph Ford (00:00):
Hello and welcome to Behrend Talks. I'm
Chancellor Ralph Ford. And todaymy guest is Sam Epps, a 1995.
Penn State Behrend graduate.
Sam, welcome to the program.
Sam Epps (00:12):
Thank you, Dr. Ford.
Glad to be joining you today.
Dr. Ralph Ford (00:16):
Well, thanks for joining us, doing it remotely.
And, you know, I'll just do alittle bio so people know who
you are and why we're going tohaven't going to have this great
discussion today. Sam is a 1995Behrend graduate. Right now he's
in the Washington D.C. area. Heis the political director of
UNITE HERE! Local 25, the unionhotel restaurant and casino
(00:40):
workers union in the WashingtonD.C. area. Not only that, Sam is
really active not only here onthe Behrend campus, but Penn
State-wide. He's a former memberof the Penn State Alumni
Council. And right now he's onthe governing board of the Penn
State University AlumniAssociation. You earned your
bachelor's degree in PoliticalScience here at Behrend and you
(01:03):
are involved in studentgovernment association active on
our multicultural Council andthe Black Caucus. And in 2020,
you and your wife, Sabrinacreated a scholarship for
students who come to Behrendfrom under-represented
communities for which we aredeeply, deeply grateful. So
thank you. And again, welcome tothe show.
Sam Epps (01:24):
Thank you, Dr. Ford.
Dr. Ralph Ford (01:27):
I like to always start out, you know, you're part
of our Behrend community. Andthat's the whole point of these
interviews, is to talk tointeresting people in our
community. Your first experienceat Penn State was actually
through Behrend. If you canthink back to when you were in
school, and it was an enrichmentprogram. So why don't you just
tell us a little bit? How didyou end up at Penn State
(01:48):
Behrend, and what were yourearly experiences?
Sam Epps (01:51):
Yes, this has been a 30 year love affair. I actually
became connected to Penn StateBehrend, as you mentioned,
through a summer enrichmentprogram, in high school. I was a
junior in high school, andBehrend was looking, I think
this is before the fourth sideof STEM education. I was in high
(02:16):
school at Erie Tech. And I wasin electricity, electronics. And
I thought I was going to be anengineer and Behrend had this
program to bring students in thesummer who were considering
going into engineering. Youknow, what type of engineering.
And so they said, "you do thissummer program, you know, one
(02:39):
course, your junior year, andthen another course." Your first
course, you take, I think I tooka math course, during that
summer. You have automaticadmission to Penn State Behrend.
And so I look at that as anopportunity. And I knew that I
was going to go to school andstay. And so when the
(03:00):
opportunity came, I jumped onit. And it was probably the best
decision I made. Joining thePenn State family in the Behrend
family 30 years ago, it was thebest decision I made.
Dr. Ralph Ford (03:13):
We love that program you talk about. It's
really gratifying to hear this.
Because we essentially continueit until this day. It's
undergone different names andslight changes over the years.
And we've always had, you know,you made me think we've always
had a really nice relationshipwith Central Tech. And now of
course, it's changed into ErieHigh School. And there's a whole
lot of changes going on there aswell. But over the years, so
(03:33):
many talented students likeyourself came to us from Central
Tech. Many of those inengineering technology programs,
whether you ended up inengineering or not. And I
personally worked with some ofthose faculty down there who
were always really passionateand committed to bringing young
people like yourself. So theymake a difference in your life,
don't they? Your early teachers?
Sam Epps (03:54):
Yeah, absolutely. I had great teachers in high
school, mentors, coaches. Youknow, I'm from Erie. I grew up
on the West Bayfront. And so itwas area of where families took
care of each other. And so tothis day, I have a basketball
coach that lives you know,blocks from where I grew up.
(04:16):
They still live in the samehouse. And so those types of
relationships for me are veryimportant. And it's still
important to this day. Even whenI come back to visit, I make
sure I get down to the WestBayfront and see those
individuals who have been a partof my life, my family, and who
have been inspirations andmentors to me.
Dr. Ralph Ford (04:37):
So I think you started your Penn State career,
after that summer program. Ibelieve at University Park. You
ended up back here. But I justlike to hear, you know, did you
started engineering?
Sam Epps (04:49):
It was a journey. I think you know, you always
growing up, think what you wantto do and where you want to be
in 20 or 30 years. And I thoughtit was engineering. So I started
down that path to engineering,got to University Park. And it
(05:11):
just didn't click for me, Ithink, you know, there is a
saying that you should do whatyou're passionate about and
gratifying. And so I just didn'tsee myself in that type of role.
And so I think how I got topolitical science is through my
involvement on the UniversityPark campu,s and student
government and organizationslike the NAACP, and the Black
(05:34):
Caucus down at University Park.
And then really, when I got backto Behrend. And transferring
back to Behrend, and it was outof not being disciplined, right.
And, you know, there's a lot ofthings that go on at University
Park that, you know, takes yourfocus off the ball. And I just
(05:54):
felt it was very important toget back to a place where I
could really focus in and, andkeep the promise that I made to
my mother, that I was going tograduate. And so, you know, I
bounced around. You know, Istarted in engineering and
thought I was gonna go intobusiness, but really my activity
and involvement on both theUniversity Park campus and also
(06:19):
on the Penn State Behrend campusis what led me to political
science. It just clicked for methere.
Dr. Ralph Ford (06:30):
So were there any, you know, we've got a
tremendous political sciencedepartment here, a lot of
success stories. And, you know,some really inspiring faculty.
Are there any in particular, youwere close to?
Sam Epps (06:44):
Yeah, I think I call them the big three. They started
in infancy of that program inthat Dr. John gamble, Dr. Zack
Irwin, and then, you know, myfavorite is Dr. Robert Speel.
You know, me and him stillconnect with each other. When he
brings students down to the D.C.
area every year. I really triedto meet with those students,
(07:07):
bring them over to our office,talk a little bit about what I'm
doing, talk about the unionmovement. So I consider those
three, as the program has nowbuilt out and much more in a
disciplinarian with with women'sstudies, communication, you
know, in there with thepolitical science program and
(07:28):
some other things that arehappening in a political science
program, but I consider thoseare like, my top three right
there.
Dr. Ralph Ford (07:38):
Well, you know, it is they, they were all hugely
influential. And well, two ofthem have retired, they remain
in touch with this. I hear fromJohn Gamble quite often. And as
you know, Dr. Speel, is a veryactive faculty member here, the
longtime student favorite, andfor good reason. So you know,
he's won a lot of universityteaching awards. And like you
(08:01):
said, each year, he's got thisgreat program where he brings
students to Washington D.C. tosee political science and
democracy in action.
Sam Epps (08:11):
Yeah, and I tried to share from my angle of how our
union works to be a part of thatdemocracy. And workers having a
voice in democracy, and how theeconomic and social justice
connects with that. So it'salways a pleasure to have those
(08:31):
students down here. And I hopesoon we will get started. The
pandemic knocked a lot of thattravel out for students, but
hopefully we we can see them inD.C. soon.
Dr. Ralph Ford (08:43):
Well, we will, hopefully have them there. I
think it's usually in thespring. But let's switch back.
You know, I want to come backand talk about your experiences
and what you're doing right now.
But I just wanted to paint thepicture a little bit or get your
perspective. What was Behrendlike when you were here in, you
know, the early 1990s. And youwere very active in the
(09:04):
Multicultural Council, whichstill exists. It's a very active
group. And the Black Caucus. Sowhat were your experiences back
then?
Sam Epps (09:16):
You know, I was on campus in Behrend's growth
stage. And I know it's stillgrowing, but in the really sort
of what I would say thefoundational stages of Behrend
and that growth stage. And so itwas a campus that really drew
(09:37):
students from all over. Youknow, not only Pennsylvania, but
New Jersey, from New York, andalso some international students
from Puerto Rico, and then ourinternational students. And so
there was a sense of what themulticultural council was too.
(10:00):
Create a space, a space forthose students who could
identify with each other beingfar from home from New York, New
Jersey, or wherever distancethat they came from. That there
was a space, that there was afamily atmosphere where they
could have support, buildfriendships. You know, many of
(10:21):
my friends that I worked withhere, we're still friends,
today. It's a 30 year, you know,friendship. And also, it was a
space for students from thediverse background, to also not
only be seen, to have supportfrom each other, but also to get
(10:44):
a voice on campus and also toprogram together on issues that
were early on and fuzzy. Iremember one of the groups was
Trigon, which is the LGBTQ groupat the time. They may have
changed it's name now to a newname. But that was the infancy
(11:04):
of that group. You know, we hada Commuter Council, right?
Because we have a largepopulation of students, who are
commuters and actually I was acommuter student, I didn't live
on campus when I was there. And,you know, Nesby, in olas, right,
the Latino students, and so wetook issues, and concerns that
(11:25):
we had together, and reallytried to work together as one
voice to be seen, to be heard,and to have a space to belong.
And to know that we all belongat Behrend. And many of those
students were were firstgeneration students, right. The
first in their families tograduate. I was the first in my
(11:45):
family to finish out a four-yearinstitution. So many of us had
commonality there. And we reallysort of brought it together, and
really did a lot of goodprogramming, not only for
ourselves, but the campus as awhole where we could have these
discussions as well.
Dr. Ralph Ford (12:05):
You know, listening to you describe that,
first of all I got here in theearly 90s. And you're right,
those were really formativeyears for the campus in so many
ways. While we continue to grow,there was, you really set the
stage because all of thosethings you just said, they apply
to MCC, and AllUs and all thoseorganizations today. And they
(12:27):
remain one of our most activestudent groups here on campus.
Very visible, they've got a nicehome, right in the center of our
Student Union. So still meetingthat mission that you another
set out to create so many yearsago?
Sam Epps (12:42):
Yeah, I'm glad I came up and I went in. Students
weren't there. But I saw thespace, very proud of the space
all that there was used to thenew organizations like the
Caribbean student organization,and some other ones. So really,
it made my heart proud to seeour vision of when that started
(13:02):
or in the empathy just grow instudents to be able to benefit
from that today. And our campusis still working and discussing
the issues around diversity,equity, and inclusion out of
that space. So it's, I'm veryproud of that.
Dr. Ralph Ford (13:20):
As you should be. Now, you served in another
large role when you were here,and that was Student Government
Association president. You wereSGA president here on campus.
That's representing all of ourstudents and student
organizations. And do youremember what were the key
issues back then that you wereworking on?
Sam Epps (13:41):
Yes, we were working on and I'm sure you had this
today. But one of the mainissues was, you know, student
groups are looking to programand certainly remember, as the
SGA president, looking atfunding, right. And how do we
find student groups in a waythat not only was equitable or
(14:07):
to have enough funds, right? Imean, you would, we would get a
budget request for $300,000 andonly had like $150,000 to give.
And so one of the main issuesthat came out of that was and
you have it today and Iadvocated at CCSD, the Catholic
Student Governments was astudent activities. Behrend was
(14:29):
one of the first thatimplemented student activitie
fee to help with programming notonly the programming for
colleges, but also programmingof student groups to be able to
create and help students engageand fulfill the missions that
their organizations have. Sothat was one of the issues. I
think, you know, across theboard. We always dealt with the
(14:54):
way faculty diversifying and thestaff and those types of things.
So I see those are with some ofthe major issues. But I think
what we really did around thestudent activity fee, is what
has again set the foundation forwhat Behrend in the student
groups are doing today.
Dr. Ralph Ford (15:16):
That was far seeing actually in that process
still worked really well. And itfunded student groups here on
campus. And it was laterfollowed by the student facility
fee, which helps withfacilities. So really forward
thinking. Let's talk a littlebit about your time after
Behrend. So you studiedpolitical science. Was your
aspiration to run for office orbe involved in politics? Did you
(15:40):
ever think about running foroffice?
Sam Epps (15:43):
So my resume does say this, but I have run for office.
Run for local county counciloffice in the county. Placed
fourth in a race to represent mydistrict that is done. I
actually, when I finished mydegree at Behrend, I thought I
was going to come and work onCapitol Hill. That was the goal,
(16:04):
the mindset that I would go andwork on Capitol Hill. But
actually, after I graduated, Idid a few years in the nonprofit
sector, with United Way in Erieand Syracuse. And then moved
from upstate New York to D.C.
But once I moved to D.C., Iactually left left all my
belongings in a storage box andwent out to Chicago, where I
(16:28):
worked on my first politicalcampaign. And so that is sort of
where the bug started. There.
And once I finished on thatcampaign, I moved back to D.C.
and started to engage inpolitics on on a party level.
(16:49):
And then I dabbled in, I didsome political fundraising from
that political fundraising stop.
It led me to working in theMaryland General Assembly as
chief of staff to a statedelegate out of Baltimore City,
who was the chair of theBaltimore City delegation. So I
was the Chief of Staff to thedelegation, which was 29, House
(17:12):
members and delegates SalimaMarriott, Chief of Staff.
Dr. Ralph Ford (17:19):
So that was Salima Marriott. Is that who you
were Chief of Staff for? Soyou've been involved in a few
political campaigns at least,and I saw, like, Martin
O'Malley's gubernatorialcampaign, and I'm sure many
others. And I always find itfascinating, because there's a
lot that goes on behind thescenes of the campaign, and we
(17:41):
don't all know. And somehow, yousee campaigns either do well,
and sometimes they implode, youknow, I won't name any names.
And I'm not saying yours. Didyou find out underneath like,
they just weren't wellorganized? You know, they put on
this great public face, but theydidn't have the fundraising
messaging. And I didn't I'vejust loved to hear some of your
experiences. Do you have anystories or wisdom that you've
(18:02):
learned there?
Sam Epps (18:03):
Yes, campaigns are controlled chaos. And I've had
the opportunity to work oncampaigns and Pennsylvania,
Indiana, Ohio, Virginia, in sortof my three surrounding
jurisdiction here, Maryland andthe District. And I think a
campaign is as good as itscandidate, you know. You can
(18:28):
have some of those flaws withcandidates. But if you have a
good campaign infrastructure,you can get over the hump there.
And some of that is withmessaging. But I think I am a
field guy. And when we sayfield, those are the folks, you
know, we're not raising money,we are sort of ambassadors for
(18:50):
that candidate, we are goingdoor to door, we are doing
events across whatever districtwe are finding supporters for
that individual. And so what Ithink has happened in campaigns
since I started and where we aretoday is they've moved from sort
of that feel door to doortalking to voters, meeting your
(19:12):
neighbor at the grocery store,talking to individuals that
doesn't always agree with you onissues, where we can agree to
disagree. You may agree with me50% of the time, but if you
don't talk to that person, thatperson thinks you and them have
no similarities to agree onissues that are important to
(19:32):
them. So they just say thank yousort of discarded their thoughts
or their engagement in thisthing we call democracy, right?
And so if I advise anybody, andwhat I always look at a campaign
is, I like to work on campaignswho are going to invest in
fields, right. Who are going toput up. Who are going to hire
organizers on the ground. And Iwould tell any candidate before
(19:56):
you think about putting in themail, in social media, the
digital types of stuff, whatdoes your field program look
like? Because you can move in anelection, one to two points with
a good field operation. And soif you're trying to get to 51%
of the vote, and if tied at 49%,a good field operation can get
(20:18):
you to 51.
Dr. Ralph Ford (20:19):
Well, in today's environment where we see so many
elections right now, we're soclose, you know that one to 2%
is the difference. And you, butyou touched on a point that, I
think is really important forpeople to understand. And that's
everything is becoming sopoliticized. People don't speak
to others. I hear this far toooften. We all know it. We don't
(20:40):
agree with them. And you'rearguing that that's the
difference in getting out there.
Sam Epps (20:45):
Yeah, absolutely. And I'll take you know, my
experience that Behrend and aclass with Dr. Speel. We had,
I've had individuals in thatclass and classmates, who was on
the other side, they were moreconservative than I was, right.
And so to this day, we still tryto get together down here in
(21:06):
D.C. They're down in D.C. aswell, too. Because I think in
that opportunity of the, theclass that we may not have
agreed on that issue. There'ssome issues that we agreed on.
And we sort of intellectuallythought that out in the class.
And so and I think there's somerespectability about that. Okay,
I get I get your point. And sothat person, you know, may drop
(21:31):
me a note and say, "Hey, let'sgo, let's go to the baseball
game," right? Or, you know, "areyou going to say, watch party
down here?" And so today, youmay not find that around,
because it's so politicized. ButI take that back to sort of what
I've learned at Behrend, and inthose classes where we had to
debate our opposition.
Dr. Ralph Ford (21:50):
So Sam, let's talk a little bit about the
scholarship that you've created.
And the impact that it has, fromyour perspective. You know,
what's the impact of thestudents and for the broader
Behrend community?
Sam Epps (22:03):
Yeah, I touched on this a little bit. For me and
for my wife is to connect, getclosely connected to individuals
in the Erie Community. But Iwould answer it this way. No
matter what side of the track,you were born on, what location
in the country you live in, yourgender, your economic
(22:25):
background, that we wanted thisscholarship to represent to
individuals who received it,that they belong that Behrend.
And that they belong that PennState. And for the broader
community, what it does, is itadds so much value to that of
having students from aninternational student from China
(22:50):
here, someone from Puerto Rico,someone who grew up in Queens,
New York. You know, someone whogrew up in rural Pennsylvania,
coming together, andexperiencing educational
matriculation and intellect. Itreally not only brings those
(23:11):
different backgrounds and traitsof all of our stories together,
it creates a better world,right? That's what we're trying
to do. And as we talk aboutright now in MIT, so where our
democracy is, you know, you it'svery good to have a campus that
(23:33):
you can have those notdisagreements were but
backgrounds where we can learnfrom each other in this
democracy, right. And we talkeda little bit about this earlier.
Is we need to talk to people whoare outside of our comfort zone,
right. And so it's veryimportant that I had that
(23:55):
classmate who was not the sameideology as myself politically,
but we were able to debate thatin class. But then we were able
to go watch the baseball gametogether, righ? That is the
community that we want to buildhere. And that's what we're
hoping this scholarship does.
And I hope that that's what itbrings to our campus. A campus
(24:17):
that is more more diverse. Itbegins to in a very small way,
because I know there's largerissues going on there. That when
people leave Behrend that theirrelationship is not with just
one type of people. They havediverse friendship across the
Penn State family, and that'swhat we want to do.
Dr. Ralph Ford (24:39):
Well, thank you so much for that because it does
add not just in a small way, butin a large way. And that's what
college you know, a universityeducation is all about. Bringing
together people for a diverseset of perspectives or maybe not
all about, but it's a reallyimportant aspect. And one is
like you said, can we talk toeach other, even though we
(25:01):
disagree? And increasingly,people cannot. We need to
reverse that. The future of thecountry depends on it.
Sam Epps (25:06):
Absolutely, it is, even in my word, I have to talk
to the other side of the aisle.
You still still practically, youknow, to get policy or
legislation, you have to talk toeveryone. And I think we want
this scholarship to be a beaconof that. We are, bringing in
diverse students from diversebackgrounds to Behrend. And, you
(25:29):
know, my wife and I had diverseexperiences in our educations.
She went to a historically blackuniversity in Columbia, South
Carolina. But it was verysimilar to Behrend in terms of
five, her campus at right outside of the University of South
Carolina. So to understand, youknow, our two different
(25:51):
educations, but very similar, ina way. And so we certainly want
to be able to provide that forfuture generations of students
to have and to meet studentsfrom many, many backgrounds.
Dr. Ralph Ford (26:07):
Well, that's, you know, I think it's a really
important lesson, and it's greatto see that you continue those
relations. Let's switch to youryour current job, which is
political director of UniteHerelocal 25. So, you know, why
don't you tell our listeners,first of all, what is UniteHere
25, and I'd love to hear whatyou do. And you know, one of the
(26:29):
things you advocate for USpolitical director,
Sam Epps (26:32):
Yes, I work on behalf of workers who work in hotels in
the D.C. metro Washington area,which is D.C., Maryland and
Virginia. And these workers arein classification, as when I say
when you think about a hotel,think about the classification,
(26:53):
bellman, housekeeper, cooks,food and beverage. You may go to
a hotel, that you're at an eventand someone serving you,
houseman. So those workers makeup our union. We also represent
workers that are at Pacino's.
And so we have a property herein Prince George's County MGM
(27:16):
that we represent those workersas well, too. So that's who we
are, as a union. And aspolitical director, my goal is
sort of what I learned thatmulticopter bound is to create a
space for our workers, who arethinking about their daily
(27:37):
lives, to be able to engage inpolitics in a way that we let
elected officials know the lawthat are their path and how they
affect our workers. And so I doboth internal education to our
members, I do external to thebroader public, I engage with
(27:59):
elected officials both on apolicy level, but also I engage
on electoral level. So we are,we're engaged right now in
midterm elections here in boththe District of Columbia and
Maryland. And so that's sort ofmy round of responsibilities
(28:19):
that I have as politicaldirector.
Dr. Ralph Ford (28:25):
So we've had the pandemic and the economy has
changed, the workforce haschanged and a lot of belief that
maybe things have turned infavor of workers right now. I
mean, are you seeing that? Ifyou've seen improvements, given
the competitiveness of what'sgoing on out there improvements,
or I'll say even betterunderstanding what those workers
(28:47):
do, given all we've been throughthese last few years,
Sam Epps (28:49):
I think the pandemic has accelerated that. Like, for
example, our membership. Duringthe pandemic, we had 98% of our
workers out of work. During thattime, they couldn't work
remotely from their home, theycouldn't do any of that. And so,
what I think the pandemic hasdone is it has turned into work
(29:14):
of favors. And we're seeingthat. We're seeing that we're in
this moment where, you know,you're now seeing workers who
want to unionize at places wherewe never thought that they
would. You know, Starbucks,Amazon, you know, Chipotle is
right. You know, so it'shappening. It's happening in our
(29:37):
industry as well as hotels.
We're not as fully back aseveryone else is. But we're
certainly seeing that and, andwhat I say to a lot of people,
we are now the popular kids,because with the labor shortages
now and workers and we lostworkers to the COVID pandemic.
On number of workers and youknow, I know other unions who
(30:02):
represent other parts of theindustry, they lost workers as
well. Workers are now saying,"No, I need more than inflation,
the pandemic, my safety." Theyare now in a sort of position to
bargain with the employer. Andemployers, you know, I was just
talking with someone. Employersare very aware of that now. And
(30:23):
many people who are againstraising their minimum wages are
moving their wages up to attractworkers, right, and changing
their benefit packets, because,you know, workers they know,
they don't have those types ofbenefits don't have a shortage
out there.
Dr. Ralph Ford (30:41):
I was at a company last week, a really
progressive manufacturer, andthey're starting everyone at
$15.50. If you don't have anyexperience, and pretty generous
benefits, packaging, you go fromthere. So it does seem that $15
is like the new minimum wage.
Even here in Erie, I don't thinkyou can do much with you know,
less than that. Maybe it's evendifferent there. But it's one of
the you know, you had a pointabout tip workers, I've always
found that a curious idea thatyou can pay below minimum wage.
(31:04):
And it seems like it's a UnitedStates centric approach. Do you
think that that changes, I mean,should that sort of designation
exist even
Sam Epps (31:14):
With the pandemic and I was enacting yesterday I was
in a meeting on this topic. Thatstates are now either doing
referendums, or there's, there'sabout seven states that has no
tip wages, you know. And some ofthem are out west California,
Oregon, those states out west.
And there's some now moving oneast coast. So remove that and
(31:38):
just bring the sub wages out andthe tip wages out, and just
bring everybody up to a standardhourly rate. And so I think with
the pandemic, that you're goingto see both industry, and
unions, and those who supportworkers and economics come
(31:58):
together, and move to try toremove that. It's happening now.
And my meeting yesterday wasliterally to talk about, is
there an appetite to do it inone of my three jurisdictions,
as a policy matter?
Dr. Ralph Ford (32:14):
It'll be interesting to see where it
goes. I lived overseas, and Ididn't have that. And I just
know, you know, people stillgave tips that are different,
though you weren't doing it inthe same manner. And the
workers, just the waiters andwaitresses, and so to speak,
just got kind of normal wage,like everyone else did. And I
suppose you can argue bothpoints. But it's interesting to
hear that that's moving.
Sam Epps (32:35):
Yes, it's moving. And and it's also has created, right
is a space where, where we, as aunion have an inequity, we have
some tip classifications in ourin our union contracts. And so
it does create a conflictbetween workers. You know, I'm
(32:56):
my classification, I may be thebartender or busser. And we're
all on tip wages. And then thewaitstaff is also on just
regular wages. And so it createssome inequity. And it also,
especially in restaurants, wheretypically the waitstaff people
in the back of the house are ofcolor, people of color, and the
(33:20):
waitstaff, you know, is white.
And so it then also creates aracial dynamic as well, too, in
restaurants. And we've seen thattoo, because we represent a
couple high end restaurants as
Dr. Ralph Ford (33:33):
Well, I'm going to ask you a question that I'm
well, too.
sure you've heard 100 timesbefore. And people I'm sure
challenge you. Why do we needunions? And and what's your
answer to that question?
Sam Epps (33:46):
My answer that question is that one should be
able to collectively bargaintheir job, but I have sorted in
a way that individuals needsrights, respect and dignity on
their job, and that employeesshould be able to come in there
to collectively bargain togetherand say, what's best for all of
(34:08):
them, right? Health and safetywise, bargain economically, also
to be able to bargain, what Icall dignity. And dignity is
their pension. If they can get apension right after they leave
this job? How are they able tolive in their golden years? So
(34:29):
for me, it is unions allowemployees and workers to have a
voice on the job. And I go back,I thought about this and I
thought about it in a way for meand how I got to sort of my
answer that I said about MCC. Itcreates commonality on the job.
(34:51):
It creates a shared space. Itcreates a voice on the job,
right. That they can winsomething that is affecting them
on their job, they cancollectively go to their
supervisor, to the owner andsay, hey, if we can continue to
do this way, two people got hurton this belt or two people had a
(35:14):
problem here. How can we solvethis? And so there's a
collective action there. Sothat's how I looked at it. And
that's how I would answer it toanyone.
Dr. Ralph Ford (35:25):
That's a great answer. And I wrote it down.
Rights, respect and dignity. Ithink it's a really great
answer. And I, you know, I willtell you this, when you and I
were at an event earlier thisyear, you may not even know and
someone walked up, theychallenged you on this question,
by the way, and I saw you answerit in a very nice, disarming
way. But I and very eloquently.
So I had asked it again here,because I heard you answer, for
(35:46):
you may not even remember it.
But we were at the campaigncelebration, and someone came up
and said, so it's kind of afunny, funny exchange, you know,
interesting exchange, but Iappreciated how you, you handled
it stuck out in my mind. Well,we're at the just about the end
of our time here. Is there any,you know, anything you'd like to
(36:07):
add? I give you the floor hereat the end of the interview,
Sam Epps (36:11):
I certainly would like to add that unions, for me, are
needed in a way. My father wasin a union, right. And there are
many workers who belong tounions who have sent their kids
to college, based on good wagesand good benefits. And now, what
we're seeing in a country thatthe income inequality has just
(36:34):
grown, that gap has grown. Andit even has affected our
students, and having to borrowlarge sums of money to
matriculate through college. Andthe way I certainly see it is
the way for us to combat that isfor individuals to be able to
(36:55):
join unions, and to be able tocollectively bargain for good
wages, good benefits, to liveout their American dream of
their children's doing muchbetter than they did. And so
that's what I certainly believein. And I and certainly, I think
that the role that I'm doinghere with you tonight, here is a
(37:17):
direct result of mymatriculation through Behrend
and my involvement there. And soI certainly don't take it
lightly that I'm here. I'm veryhumbled that I can impact
workers every single day. And Ican see it in a very tangible
way. And so I certainly thinkthose learning experiences I
(37:42):
had, and those opportunities Ihad on campus led in a way that
has landed me here in thisposition.
Dr. Ralph Ford (37:51):
Well, so humble, and so nicely said, and, you
know, a lot of truth there. AndI will say, you know, from my
own personal experience, andyours and others, a lot of us
came from parents who were unionworkers. And they had that
aspiration to send us tocollege. And it is very real,
and it lives on. And, you know,I just wanted to make one point
(38:13):
before we close here, too, andthat is to really thank you and
your wife, and recognize whatyou have done. You made a clear
commitment to diversity. And youcreated this wonderful
scholarships this Sabrina andSam Epps Educational Equity
Scholarship that's benefitingour students. You continue to be
(38:35):
involved with our students. Wedidn't even get into all of
that. And each and every day,you're mentoring our students.
And we greatly appreciate that.
So I want to thank you for beingwith us here today, Sam, and for
all the support and wonderfulthings that you do. Not only for
Behrend, but for the largercommunity. You should be very
proud of it.
Sam Epps (38:55):
Well, thank you, certainly me and my wife, for
us, much has been given to us.
And so we certainly wanted togive back. And for me, it is
very important for me to createthat legacy line because, and as
you said, the interaction ofBehrend with many of the high
schools there. But it's also tocreate opportunities for people
(39:18):
who grew up on the Lower WestBayfront to be able to have an
opportunity to come to Behrend,to be able to experience the
campus, and is really to closethat gap of Behrend to the Erie
Community in a way. That is youknow, you have an opportunity
becuase of grades to go toBehrend, but because of the
(39:40):
economic situation you could.
That this Equity Scholarshipwould help you get there. That's
what it's about for Sabrina andI, who also went and had
scholarships at her historicallyblack college and university. So
yeah.
Dr. Ralph Ford (39:57):
Well, thank you so much to our audience. You
have been listening To BehrendTalks. I'm Chancellor Ralph Ford
and our guest today has beenPenn State Behrend graduate Mr.
Sam Epps, graduate of ourpolitical science program and
the political director ofUniteHere local 25 in the
Washington D.C. area. Thank youso much.
Hello and welcome to Behrend Talks. I'm
Chancellor Ralph Ford. And todaymy guest is Sam Epps, a 1995.
Penn State Behrend graduate.
Sam, welcome to the program.
Sam Epps (00:12):
Thank you, Dr. Ford.
Glad to be joining you today.
Dr. Ralph Ford (00:16):
Well, thanks for joining us, doing it remotely.
And, you know, I'll just do alittle bio so people know who
you are and why we're going tohaven't going to have this great
discussion today. Sam is a 1995Behrend graduate. Right now he's
in the Washington D.C. area. Heis the political director of
UNITE HERE! Local 25, the unionhotel restaurant and casino
(00:40):
workers union in the WashingtonD.C. area. Not only that, Sam is
really active not only here onthe Behrend campus, but Penn
State-wide. He's a former memberof the Penn State Alumni
Council. And right now he's onthe governing board of the Penn
State University AlumniAssociation. You earned your
bachelor's degree in PoliticalScience here at Behrend and you
(01:03):
are involved in studentgovernment association active on
our multicultural Council andthe Black Caucus. And in 2020,
you and your wife, Sabrinacreated a scholarship for
students who come to Behrendfrom under-represented
communities for which we aredeeply, deeply grateful. So
thank you. And again, welcome tothe show.
Sam Epps (01:24):
Thank you, Dr. Ford.
Dr. Ralph Ford (01:27):
I like to always start out, you know, you're part
of our Behrend community. Andthat's the whole point of these
interviews, is to talk tointeresting people in our
community. Your first experienceat Penn State was actually
through Behrend. If you canthink back to when you were in
school, and it was an enrichmentprogram. So why don't you just
tell us a little bit? How didyou end up at Penn State
(01:48):
Behrend, and what were yourearly experiences?
Sam Epps (01:51):
Yes, this has been a 30 year love affair. I actually
became connected to Penn StateBehrend, as you mentioned,
through a summer enrichmentprogram, in high school. I was a
junior in high school, andBehrend was looking, I think
this is before the fourth sideof STEM education. I was in high
(02:16):
school at Erie Tech. And I wasin electricity, electronics. And
I thought I was going to be anengineer and Behrend had this
program to bring students in thesummer who were considering
going into engineering. Youknow, what type of engineering.
And so they said, "you do thissummer program, you know, one
(02:39):
course, your junior year, andthen another course." Your first
course, you take, I think I tooka math course, during that
summer. You have automaticadmission to Penn State Behrend.
And so I look at that as anopportunity. And I knew that I
was going to go to school andstay. And so when the
(03:00):
opportunity came, I jumped onit. And it was probably the best
decision I made. Joining thePenn State family in the Behrend
family 30 years ago, it was thebest decision I made.
Dr. Ralph Ford (03:13):
We love that program you talk about. It's
really gratifying to hear this.
Because we essentially continueit until this day. It's
undergone different names andslight changes over the years.
And we've always had, you know,you made me think we've always
had a really nice relationshipwith Central Tech. And now of
course, it's changed into ErieHigh School. And there's a whole
lot of changes going on there aswell. But over the years, so
(03:33):
many talented students likeyourself came to us from Central
Tech. Many of those inengineering technology programs,
whether you ended up inengineering or not. And I
personally worked with some ofthose faculty down there who
were always really passionateand committed to bringing young
people like yourself. So theymake a difference in your life,
don't they? Your early teachers?
Sam Epps (03:54):
Yeah, absolutely. I had great teachers in high
school, mentors, coaches. Youknow, I'm from Erie. I grew up
on the West Bayfront. And so itwas area of where families took
care of each other. And so tothis day, I have a basketball
coach that lives you know,blocks from where I grew up.
(04:16):
They still live in the samehouse. And so those types of
relationships for me are veryimportant. And it's still
important to this day. Even whenI come back to visit, I make
sure I get down to the WestBayfront and see those
individuals who have been a partof my life, my family, and who
have been inspirations andmentors to me.
Dr. Ralph Ford (04:37):
So I think you started your Penn State career,
after that summer program. Ibelieve at University Park. You
ended up back here. But I justlike to hear, you know, did you
started engineering?
Sam Epps (04:49):
It was a journey. I think you know, you always
growing up, think what you wantto do and where you want to be
in 20 or 30 years. And I thoughtit was engineering. So I started
down that path to engineering,got to University Park. And it
(05:11):
just didn't click for me, Ithink, you know, there is a
saying that you should do whatyou're passionate about and
gratifying. And so I just didn'tsee myself in that type of role.
And so I think how I got topolitical science is through my
involvement on the UniversityPark campu,s and student
government and organizationslike the NAACP, and the Black
(05:34):
Caucus down at University Park.
And then really, when I got backto Behrend. And transferring
back to Behrend, and it was outof not being disciplined, right.
And, you know, there's a lot ofthings that go on at University
Park that, you know, takes yourfocus off the ball. And I just
(05:54):
felt it was very important toget back to a place where I
could really focus in and, andkeep the promise that I made to
my mother, that I was going tograduate. And so, you know, I
bounced around. You know, Istarted in engineering and
thought I was gonna go intobusiness, but really my activity
and involvement on both theUniversity Park campus and also
(06:19):
on the Penn State Behrend campusis what led me to political
science. It just clicked for methere.
Dr. Ralph Ford (06:30):
So were there any, you know, we've got a
tremendous political sciencedepartment here, a lot of
success stories. And, you know,some really inspiring faculty.
Are there any in particular, youwere close to?
Sam Epps (06:44):
Yeah, I think I call them the big three. They started
in infancy of that program inthat Dr. John gamble, Dr. Zack
Irwin, and then, you know, myfavorite is Dr. Robert Speel.
You know, me and him stillconnect with each other. When he
brings students down to the D.C.
area every year. I really triedto meet with those students,
(07:07):
bring them over to our office,talk a little bit about what I'm
doing, talk about the unionmovement. So I consider those
three, as the program has nowbuilt out and much more in a
disciplinarian with with women'sstudies, communication, you
know, in there with thepolitical science program and
(07:28):
some other things that arehappening in a political science
program, but I consider thoseare like, my top three right
there.
Dr. Ralph Ford (07:38):
Well, you know, it is they, they were all hugely
influential. And well, two ofthem have retired, they remain
in touch with this. I hear fromJohn Gamble quite often. And as
you know, Dr. Speel, is a veryactive faculty member here, the
longtime student favorite, andfor good reason. So you know,
he's won a lot of universityteaching awards. And like you
(08:01):
said, each year, he's got thisgreat program where he brings
students to Washington D.C. tosee political science and
democracy in action.
Sam Epps (08:11):
Yeah, and I tried to share from my angle of how our
union works to be a part of thatdemocracy. And workers having a
voice in democracy, and how theeconomic and social justice
connects with that. So it'salways a pleasure to have those
(08:31):
students down here. And I hopesoon we will get started. The
pandemic knocked a lot of thattravel out for students, but
hopefully we we can see them inD.C. soon.
Dr. Ralph Ford (08:43):
Well, we will, hopefully have them there. I
think it's usually in thespring. But let's switch back.
You know, I want to come backand talk about your experiences
and what you're doing right now.
But I just wanted to paint thepicture a little bit or get your
perspective. What was Behrendlike when you were here in, you
know, the early 1990s. And youwere very active in the
(09:04):
Multicultural Council, whichstill exists. It's a very active
group. And the Black Caucus. Sowhat were your experiences back
then?
Sam Epps (09:16):
You know, I was on campus in Behrend's growth
stage. And I know it's stillgrowing, but in the really sort
of what I would say thefoundational stages of Behrend
and that growth stage. And so itwas a campus that really drew
(09:37):
students from all over. Youknow, not only Pennsylvania, but
New Jersey, from New York, andalso some international students
from Puerto Rico, and then ourinternational students. And so
there was a sense of what themulticultural council was too.
(10:00):
Create a space, a space forthose students who could
identify with each other beingfar from home from New York, New
Jersey, or wherever distancethat they came from. That there
was a space, that there was afamily atmosphere where they
could have support, buildfriendships. You know, many of
(10:21):
my friends that I worked withhere, we're still friends,
today. It's a 30 year, you know,friendship. And also, it was a
space for students from thediverse background, to also not
only be seen, to have supportfrom each other, but also to get
(10:44):
a voice on campus and also toprogram together on issues that
were early on and fuzzy. Iremember one of the groups was
Trigon, which is the LGBTQ groupat the time. They may have
changed it's name now to a newname. But that was the infancy
(11:04):
of that group. You know, we hada Commuter Council, right?
Because we have a largepopulation of students, who are
commuters and actually I was acommuter student, I didn't live
on campus when I was there. And,you know, Nesby, in olas, right,
the Latino students, and so wetook issues, and concerns that
(11:25):
we had together, and reallytried to work together as one
voice to be seen, to be heard,and to have a space to belong.
And to know that we all belongat Behrend. And many of those
students were were firstgeneration students, right. The
first in their families tograduate. I was the first in my
(11:45):
family to finish out a four-yearinstitution. So many of us had
commonality there. And we reallysort of brought it together, and
really did a lot of goodprogramming, not only for
ourselves, but the campus as awhole where we could have these
discussions as well.
Dr. Ralph Ford (12:05):
You know, listening to you describe that,
first of all I got here in theearly 90s. And you're right,
those were really formativeyears for the campus in so many
ways. While we continue to grow,there was, you really set the
stage because all of thosethings you just said, they apply
to MCC, and AllUs and all thoseorganizations today. And they
(12:27):
remain one of our most activestudent groups here on campus.
Very visible, they've got a nicehome, right in the center of our
Student Union. So still meetingthat mission that you another
set out to create so many yearsago?
Sam Epps (12:42):
Yeah, I'm glad I came up and I went in. Students
weren't there. But I saw thespace, very proud of the space
all that there was used to thenew organizations like the
Caribbean student organization,and some other ones. So really,
it made my heart proud to seeour vision of when that started
(13:02):
or in the empathy just grow instudents to be able to benefit
from that today. And our campusis still working and discussing
the issues around diversity,equity, and inclusion out of
that space. So it's, I'm veryproud of that.
Dr. Ralph Ford (13:20):
As you should be. Now, you served in another
large role when you were here,and that was Student Government
Association president. You wereSGA president here on campus.
That's representing all of ourstudents and student
organizations. And do youremember what were the key
issues back then that you wereworking on?
Sam Epps (13:41):
Yes, we were working on and I'm sure you had this
today. But one of the mainissues was, you know, student
groups are looking to programand certainly remember, as the
SGA president, looking atfunding, right. And how do we
find student groups in a waythat not only was equitable or
(14:07):
to have enough funds, right? Imean, you would, we would get a
budget request for $300,000 andonly had like $150,000 to give.
And so one of the main issuesthat came out of that was and
you have it today and Iadvocated at CCSD, the Catholic
Student Governments was astudent activities. Behrend was
(14:29):
one of the first thatimplemented student activitie
fee to help with programming notonly the programming for
colleges, but also programmingof student groups to be able to
create and help students engageand fulfill the missions that
their organizations have. Sothat was one of the issues. I
think, you know, across theboard. We always dealt with the
(14:54):
way faculty diversifying and thestaff and those types of things.
So I see those are with some ofthe major issues. But I think
what we really did around thestudent activity fee, is what
has again set the foundation forwhat Behrend in the student
groups are doing today.
Dr. Ralph Ford (15:16):
That was far seeing actually in that process
still worked really well. And itfunded student groups here on
campus. And it was laterfollowed by the student facility
fee, which helps withfacilities. So really forward
thinking. Let's talk a littlebit about your time after
Behrend. So you studiedpolitical science. Was your
aspiration to run for office orbe involved in politics? Did you
(15:40):
ever think about running foroffice?
Sam Epps (15:43):
So my resume does say this, but I have run for office.
Run for local county counciloffice in the county. Placed
fourth in a race to represent mydistrict that is done. I
actually, when I finished mydegree at Behrend, I thought I
was going to come and work onCapitol Hill. That was the goal,
(16:04):
the mindset that I would go andwork on Capitol Hill. But
actually, after I graduated, Idid a few years in the nonprofit
sector, with United Way in Erieand Syracuse. And then moved
from upstate New York to D.C.
But once I moved to D.C., Iactually left left all my
belongings in a storage box andwent out to Chicago, where I
(16:28):
worked on my first politicalcampaign. And so that is sort of
where the bug started. There.
And once I finished on thatcampaign, I moved back to D.C.
and started to engage inpolitics on on a party level.
(16:49):
And then I dabbled in, I didsome political fundraising from
that political fundraising stop.
It led me to working in theMaryland General Assembly as
chief of staff to a statedelegate out of Baltimore City,
who was the chair of theBaltimore City delegation. So I
was the Chief of Staff to thedelegation, which was 29, House
(17:12):
members and delegates SalimaMarriott, Chief of Staff.
Dr. Ralph Ford (17:19):
So that was Salima Marriott. Is that who you
were Chief of Staff for? Soyou've been involved in a few
political campaigns at least,and I saw, like, Martin
O'Malley's gubernatorialcampaign, and I'm sure many
others. And I always find itfascinating, because there's a
lot that goes on behind thescenes of the campaign, and we
(17:41):
don't all know. And somehow, yousee campaigns either do well,
and sometimes they implode, youknow, I won't name any names.
And I'm not saying yours. Didyou find out underneath like,
they just weren't wellorganized? You know, they put on
this great public face, but theydidn't have the fundraising
messaging. And I didn't I'vejust loved to hear some of your
experiences. Do you have anystories or wisdom that you've
(18:02):
learned there?
Sam Epps (18:03):
Yes, campaigns are controlled chaos. And I've had
the opportunity to work oncampaigns and Pennsylvania,
Indiana, Ohio, Virginia, in sortof my three surrounding
jurisdiction here, Maryland andthe District. And I think a
campaign is as good as itscandidate, you know. You can
(18:28):
have some of those flaws withcandidates. But if you have a
good campaign infrastructure,you can get over the hump there.
And some of that is withmessaging. But I think I am a
field guy. And when we sayfield, those are the folks, you
know, we're not raising money,we are sort of ambassadors for
(18:50):
that candidate, we are goingdoor to door, we are doing
events across whatever districtwe are finding supporters for
that individual. And so what Ithink has happened in campaigns
since I started and where we aretoday is they've moved from sort
of that feel door to doortalking to voters, meeting your
(19:12):
neighbor at the grocery store,talking to individuals that
doesn't always agree with you onissues, where we can agree to
disagree. You may agree with me50% of the time, but if you
don't talk to that person, thatperson thinks you and them have
no similarities to agree onissues that are important to
(19:32):
them. So they just say thank yousort of discarded their thoughts
or their engagement in thisthing we call democracy, right?
And so if I advise anybody, andwhat I always look at a campaign
is, I like to work on campaignswho are going to invest in
fields, right. Who are going toput up. Who are going to hire
organizers on the ground. And Iwould tell any candidate before
(19:56):
you think about putting in themail, in social media, the
digital types of stuff, whatdoes your field program look
like? Because you can move in anelection, one to two points with
a good field operation. And soif you're trying to get to 51%
of the vote, and if tied at 49%,a good field operation can get
(20:18):
you to 51.
Dr. Ralph Ford (20:19):
Well, in today's environment where we see so many
elections right now, we're soclose, you know that one to 2%
is the difference. And you, butyou touched on a point that, I
think is really important forpeople to understand. And that's
everything is becoming sopoliticized. People don't speak
to others. I hear this far toooften. We all know it. We don't
(20:40):
agree with them. And you'rearguing that that's the
difference in getting out there.
Sam Epps (20:45):
Yeah, absolutely. And I'll take you know, my
experience that Behrend and aclass with Dr. Speel. We had,
I've had individuals in thatclass and classmates, who was on
the other side, they were moreconservative than I was, right.
And so to this day, we still tryto get together down here in
(21:06):
D.C. They're down in D.C. aswell, too. Because I think in
that opportunity of the, theclass that we may not have
agreed on that issue. There'ssome issues that we agreed on.
And we sort of intellectuallythought that out in the class.
And so and I think there's somerespectability about that. Okay,
I get I get your point. And sothat person, you know, may drop
(21:31):
me a note and say, "Hey, let'sgo, let's go to the baseball
game," right? Or, you know, "areyou going to say, watch party
down here?" And so today, youmay not find that around,
because it's so politicized. ButI take that back to sort of what
I've learned at Behrend, and inthose classes where we had to
debate our opposition.
Dr. Ralph Ford (21:50):
So Sam, let's talk a little bit about the
scholarship that you've created.
And the impact that it has, fromyour perspective. You know,
what's the impact of thestudents and for the broader
Behrend community?
Sam Epps (22:03):
Yeah, I touched on this a little bit. For me and
for my wife is to connect, getclosely connected to individuals
in the Erie Community. But Iwould answer it this way. No
matter what side of the track,you were born on, what location
in the country you live in, yourgender, your economic
(22:25):
background, that we wanted thisscholarship to represent to
individuals who received it,that they belong that Behrend.
And that they belong that PennState. And for the broader
community, what it does, is itadds so much value to that of
having students from aninternational student from China
(22:50):
here, someone from Puerto Rico,someone who grew up in Queens,
New York. You know, someone whogrew up in rural Pennsylvania,
coming together, andexperiencing educational
matriculation and intellect. Itreally not only brings those
(23:11):
different backgrounds and traitsof all of our stories together,
it creates a better world,right? That's what we're trying
to do. And as we talk aboutright now in MIT, so where our
democracy is, you know, you it'svery good to have a campus that
(23:33):
you can have those notdisagreements were but
backgrounds where we can learnfrom each other in this
democracy, right. And we talkeda little bit about this earlier.
Is we need to talk to people whoare outside of our comfort zone,
right. And so it's veryimportant that I had that
(23:55):
classmate who was not the sameideology as myself politically,
but we were able to debate thatin class. But then we were able
to go watch the baseball gametogether, righ? That is the
community that we want to buildhere. And that's what we're
hoping this scholarship does.
And I hope that that's what itbrings to our campus. A campus
(24:17):
that is more more diverse. Itbegins to in a very small way,
because I know there's largerissues going on there. That when
people leave Behrend that theirrelationship is not with just
one type of people. They havediverse friendship across the
Penn State family, and that'swhat we want to do.
Dr. Ralph Ford (24:39):
Well, thank you so much for that because it does
add not just in a small way, butin a large way. And that's what
college you know, a universityeducation is all about. Bringing
together people for a diverseset of perspectives or maybe not
all about, but it's a reallyimportant aspect. And one is
like you said, can we talk toeach other, even though we
(25:01):
disagree? And increasingly,people cannot. We need to
reverse that. The future of thecountry depends on it.
Sam Epps (25:06):
Absolutely, it is, even in my word, I have to talk
to the other side of the aisle.
You still still practically, youknow, to get policy or
legislation, you have to talk toeveryone. And I think we want
this scholarship to be a beaconof that. We are, bringing in
diverse students from diversebackgrounds to Behrend. And, you
(25:29):
know, my wife and I had diverseexperiences in our educations.
She went to a historically blackuniversity in Columbia, South
Carolina. But it was verysimilar to Behrend in terms of
five, her campus at right outside of the University of South
Carolina. So to understand, youknow, our two different
(25:51):
educations, but very similar, ina way. And so we certainly want
to be able to provide that forfuture generations of students
to have and to meet studentsfrom many, many backgrounds.
Dr. Ralph Ford (26:07):
Well, that's, you know, I think it's a really
important lesson, and it's greatto see that you continue those
relations. Let's switch to youryour current job, which is
political director of UniteHerelocal 25. So, you know, why
don't you tell our listeners,first of all, what is UniteHere
25, and I'd love to hear whatyou do. And you know, one of the
(26:29):
things you advocate for USpolitical director,
Sam Epps (26:32):
Yes, I work on behalf of workers who work in hotels in
the D.C. metro Washington area,which is D.C., Maryland and
Virginia. And these workers arein classification, as when I say
when you think about a hotel,think about the classification,
(26:53):
bellman, housekeeper, cooks,food and beverage. You may go to
a hotel, that you're at an eventand someone serving you,
houseman. So those workers makeup our union. We also represent
workers that are at Pacino's.
And so we have a property herein Prince George's County MGM
(27:16):
that we represent those workersas well, too. So that's who we
are, as a union. And aspolitical director, my goal is
sort of what I learned thatmulticopter bound is to create a
space for our workers, who arethinking about their daily
(27:37):
lives, to be able to engage inpolitics in a way that we let
elected officials know the lawthat are their path and how they
affect our workers. And so I doboth internal education to our
members, I do external to thebroader public, I engage with
(27:59):
elected officials both on apolicy level, but also I engage
on electoral level. So we are,we're engaged right now in
midterm elections here in boththe District of Columbia and
Maryland. And so that's sort ofmy round of responsibilities
(28:19):
that I have as politicaldirector.
Dr. Ralph Ford (28:25):
So we've had the pandemic and the economy has
changed, the workforce haschanged and a lot of belief that
maybe things have turned infavor of workers right now. I
mean, are you seeing that? Ifyou've seen improvements, given
the competitiveness of what'sgoing on out there improvements,
or I'll say even betterunderstanding what those workers
(28:47):
do, given all we've been throughthese last few years,
Sam Epps (28:49):
I think the pandemic has accelerated that. Like, for
example, our membership. Duringthe pandemic, we had 98% of our
workers out of work. During thattime, they couldn't work
remotely from their home, theycouldn't do any of that. And so,
what I think the pandemic hasdone is it has turned into work
(29:14):
of favors. And we're seeingthat. We're seeing that we're in
this moment where, you know,you're now seeing workers who
want to unionize at places wherewe never thought that they
would. You know, Starbucks,Amazon, you know, Chipotle is
right. You know, so it'shappening. It's happening in our
(29:37):
industry as well as hotels.
We're not as fully back aseveryone else is. But we're
certainly seeing that and, andwhat I say to a lot of people,
we are now the popular kids,because with the labor shortages
now and workers and we lostworkers to the COVID pandemic.
On number of workers and youknow, I know other unions who
(30:02):
represent other parts of theindustry, they lost workers as
well. Workers are now saying,"No, I need more than inflation,
the pandemic, my safety." Theyare now in a sort of position to
bargain with the employer. Andemployers, you know, I was just
talking with someone. Employersare very aware of that now. And
(30:23):
many people who are againstraising their minimum wages are
moving their wages up to attractworkers, right, and changing
their benefit packets, because,you know, workers they know,
they don't have those types ofbenefits don't have a shortage
out there.
Dr. Ralph Ford (30:41):
I was at a company last week, a really
progressive manufacturer, andthey're starting everyone at
$15.50. If you don't have anyexperience, and pretty generous
benefits, packaging, you go fromthere. So it does seem that $15
is like the new minimum wage.
Even here in Erie, I don't thinkyou can do much with you know,
less than that. Maybe it's evendifferent there. But it's one of
the you know, you had a pointabout tip workers, I've always
found that a curious idea thatyou can pay below minimum wage.
(31:04):
And it seems like it's a UnitedStates centric approach. Do you
think that that changes, I mean,should that sort of designation
exist even
Sam Epps (31:14):
With the pandemic and I was enacting yesterday I was
in a meeting on this topic. Thatstates are now either doing
referendums, or there's, there'sabout seven states that has no
tip wages, you know. And some ofthem are out west California,
Oregon, those states out west.
And there's some now moving oneast coast. So remove that and
(31:38):
just bring the sub wages out andthe tip wages out, and just
bring everybody up to a standardhourly rate. And so I think with
the pandemic, that you're goingto see both industry, and
unions, and those who supportworkers and economics come
(31:58):
together, and move to try toremove that. It's happening now.
And my meeting yesterday wasliterally to talk about, is
there an appetite to do it inone of my three jurisdictions,
as a policy matter?
Dr. Ralph Ford (32:14):
It'll be interesting to see where it
goes. I lived overseas, and Ididn't have that. And I just
know, you know, people stillgave tips that are different,
though you weren't doing it inthe same manner. And the
workers, just the waiters andwaitresses, and so to speak,
just got kind of normal wage,like everyone else did. And I
suppose you can argue bothpoints. But it's interesting to
hear that that's moving.
Sam Epps (32:35):
Yes, it's moving. And and it's also has created, right
is a space where, where we, as aunion have an inequity, we have
some tip classifications in ourin our union contracts. And so
it does create a conflictbetween workers. You know, I'm
(32:56):
my classification, I may be thebartender or busser. And we're
all on tip wages. And then thewaitstaff is also on just
regular wages. And so it createssome inequity. And it also,
especially in restaurants, wheretypically the waitstaff people
in the back of the house are ofcolor, people of color, and the
(33:20):
waitstaff, you know, is white.
And so it then also creates aracial dynamic as well, too, in
restaurants. And we've seen thattoo, because we represent a
couple high end restaurants as
Dr. Ralph Ford (33:33):
Well, I'm going to ask you a question that I'm
well, too.
sure you've heard 100 timesbefore. And people I'm sure
challenge you. Why do we needunions? And and what's your
answer to that question?
Sam Epps (33:46):
My answer that question is that one should be
able to collectively bargaintheir job, but I have sorted in
a way that individuals needsrights, respect and dignity on
their job, and that employeesshould be able to come in there
to collectively bargain togetherand say, what's best for all of
(34:08):
them, right? Health and safetywise, bargain economically, also
to be able to bargain, what Icall dignity. And dignity is
their pension. If they can get apension right after they leave
this job? How are they able tolive in their golden years? So
(34:29):
for me, it is unions allowemployees and workers to have a
voice on the job. And I go back,I thought about this and I
thought about it in a way for meand how I got to sort of my
answer that I said about MCC. Itcreates commonality on the job.
(34:51):
It creates a shared space. Itcreates a voice on the job,
right. That they can winsomething that is affecting them
on their job, they cancollectively go to their
supervisor, to the owner andsay, hey, if we can continue to
do this way, two people got hurton this belt or two people had a
(35:14):
problem here. How can we solvethis? And so there's a
collective action there. Sothat's how I looked at it. And
that's how I would answer it toanyone.
Dr. Ralph Ford (35:25):
That's a great answer. And I wrote it down.
Rights, respect and dignity. Ithink it's a really great
answer. And I, you know, I willtell you this, when you and I
were at an event earlier thisyear, you may not even know and
someone walked up, theychallenged you on this question,
by the way, and I saw you answerit in a very nice, disarming
way. But I and very eloquently.
So I had asked it again here,because I heard you answer, for
(35:46):
you may not even remember it.
But we were at the campaigncelebration, and someone came up
and said, so it's kind of afunny, funny exchange, you know,
interesting exchange, but Iappreciated how you, you handled
it stuck out in my mind. Well,we're at the just about the end
of our time here. Is there any,you know, anything you'd like to
(36:07):
add? I give you the floor hereat the end of the interview,
Sam Epps (36:11):
I certainly would like to add that unions, for me, are
needed in a way. My father wasin a union, right. And there are
many workers who belong tounions who have sent their kids
to college, based on good wagesand good benefits. And now, what
we're seeing in a country thatthe income inequality has just
(36:34):
grown, that gap has grown. Andit even has affected our
students, and having to borrowlarge sums of money to
matriculate through college. Andthe way I certainly see it is
the way for us to combat that isfor individuals to be able to
(36:55):
join unions, and to be able tocollectively bargain for good
wages, good benefits, to liveout their American dream of
their children's doing muchbetter than they did. And so
that's what I certainly believein. And I and certainly, I think
that the role that I'm doinghere with you tonight, here is a
(37:17):
direct result of mymatriculation through Behrend
and my involvement there. And soI certainly don't take it
lightly that I'm here. I'm veryhumbled that I can impact
workers every single day. And Ican see it in a very tangible
way. And so I certainly thinkthose learning experiences I
(37:42):
had, and those opportunities Ihad on campus led in a way that
has landed me here in thisposition.
Dr. Ralph Ford (37:51):
Well, so humble, and so nicely said, and, you
know, a lot of truth there. AndI will say, you know, from my
own personal experience, andyours and others, a lot of us
came from parents who were unionworkers. And they had that
aspiration to send us tocollege. And it is very real,
and it lives on. And, you know,I just wanted to make one point
(38:13):
before we close here, too, andthat is to really thank you and
your wife, and recognize whatyou have done. You made a clear
commitment to diversity. And youcreated this wonderful
scholarships this Sabrina andSam Epps Educational Equity
Scholarship that's benefitingour students. You continue to be
(38:35):
involved with our students. Wedidn't even get into all of
that. And each and every day,you're mentoring our students.
And we greatly appreciate that.
So I want to thank you for beingwith us here today, Sam, and for
all the support and wonderfulthings that you do. Not only for
Behrend, but for the largercommunity. You should be very
proud of it.
Sam Epps (38:55):
Well, thank you, certainly me and my wife, for
us, much has been given to us.
And so we certainly wanted togive back. And for me, it is
very important for me to createthat legacy line because, and as
you said, the interaction ofBehrend with many of the high
schools there. But it's also tocreate opportunities for people
(39:18):
who grew up on the Lower WestBayfront to be able to have an
opportunity to come to Behrend,to be able to experience the
campus, and is really to closethat gap of Behrend to the Erie
Community in a way. That is youknow, you have an opportunity
becuase of grades to go toBehrend, but because of the
(39:40):
economic situation you could.
That this Equity Scholarshipwould help you get there. That's
what it's about for Sabrina andI, who also went and had
scholarships at her historicallyblack college and university. So
yeah.
Dr. Ralph Ford (39:57):
Well, thank you so much to our audience. You
have been listening To BehrendTalks. I'm Chancellor Ralph Ford
and our guest today has beenPenn State Behrend graduate Mr.
Sam Epps, graduate of ourpolitical science program and
the political director ofUniteHere local 25 in the
Washington D.C. area. Thank youso much.
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