#231 - Business as Creative Expression with Maia Toll of Herbiary - Being Boss with Emily + Kathleen

Episode Transcript
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Emily Thompson (00:02):
I'm Emily Thompson. And I'm Kathleen
Shannon, and this is being boss.
In this episode of being boss,I'm joined by my atoll to talk
about her journey of buildingher business which includes two
brick and mortar stores,multiple digital products,
retreats and award winningbooks, which will lend to our

(00:22):
conversation of using yourbusiness as an outlet for
creative expression, and usingyour intuition in your business.
As always, you can find all thetools, books and links we
reference on the show notes atWWW dot being boss

Unknown (00:38):
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Not everyone thinks of themselves as capital
C creative. Though if you'rehere listening to me now I'd say
that you are you may not be apainter or a ceramicist or even
a graphic designer. But you arededicated to doing business in a
different way, in a way that'sdare I say, creative. And it's

(02:04):
through that lens that Iintroduce you to my friend Maya
toll today. She's the founder ofherb airy, a retail store with
locations in Philadelphia,Pennsylvania, and Asheville,
North Carolina. She's also aneducator with a background as a
school teacher and as aneducator of botanical medicine
in universities and hospitals,and with her fingers currently

(02:24):
in teaching natural philosophyand mysticism in her online
courses and communities. Andshe's an author of the award
winning book they illustratedIrby airy and the award winning
the illustrated beastie airy,and the soon to be released a
third member of the wild wisdomfamily, the illustrated crystal
airy, which I imagine is alsosoon to be award winning. You're

(02:47):
about to hear at Maya's journeyas a business owner. And I think
you'll agree that the businessshe's created for herself is
just that a creation. And thebeing boss community, we've been
talking a lot recently about theimportance of creativity, and
the role it plays in our wellbeing, especially as creative
business owners. And my hisperspective on this is great for

(03:08):
bringing home for those of youwho don't see yourself as
capital C creatives, the factthat by being in the kind of
business that has even attractedyou to this podcast, you are, in
fact, creative. Welcome to beingboss, Maya, I'm so excited.
You're here.

Maia Toll (03:26):
I'm so excited to be here. This is this is great,
because we talk all the time. Sothis is like an extension of
what we do anyway. What? Or apublic conversation,

a public conversation for sure. So I
would love to begin by justintroducing you to all of the
bosses. So can you share with usthe journey that you've taken to
get you to where you are now asyour own boss of this, like,
amazing Empire?

Maia Toll (04:00):
I'm an accidental boss, aren't we all are? Well,
it's true. I mean, I thinkreally, my partner says to me
all the time that I'm completelyunemployable. And I think that's
at the crux of it, you know,like you when you are a person
who has your own ideas abouteverything. Eventually, you're

(04:20):
either gonna have your ownbusiness or you're going to burn
out. Yeah, so for me, I, I camehome from studying with medicine
woman in Ireland, and I wantedto teach other people what I had
learned as well as the clients.
So I was working at a very bigsupermarket that used to not be

(04:41):
owned by Amazon. Yes. And I wasworking in their body care
department and like helpingpeople to choose all natural
remedies and They refused togive me a regular schedule. So

(05:02):
basically, like they said, Weown you from eight in the
morning until 10. At night, youknow, you can ask for time off
two weeks in advance, maybewe'll give it to you, maybe we
won't. And go ahead and try toplan your life around that. And
so I was in a situation where Iwas making 10 times what I was

(05:22):
making an hour at the store tosee a client. And so I'm, you
know, I was in the positionwhere I was trying to decide how
to make my like how to make thatclient work, work, when my job
wouldn't give me a regularschedule, and let me know when

(05:44):
they needed me and when theydidn't. And the client work made
more money.

And just to clarify to you're talking about
whenever you came back fromIreland, which I love to use,
like jump to that and sort ofglossed over that in a second.
But you came back and startedseeing clients as a clinical
herbalist. So you were runningyour business on the side, and
working at that large grocerystore chain. Yes.

Maia Toll (06:15):
So and it I mean, it just wasn't working, like the
math didn't work, it didn't makeany sense. So I decided that I
was going to, like just jump in,you know, with kind of the solo
practitioner model, and I wasseeing people in my dining room.

(06:36):
And I was teaching in my diningroom, you know, just very, very
small business. And my partnersaid to me, you know, what, I
think having like a placeoutside the house, and having
some street presence, so peoplecan see you. And, you know, stop
in and say, Hi, why don't youopen a store. And I was like,

(06:57):
Oh,

Unknown (06:59):
I store.

Maia Toll (07:02):
I've done that before. I really, I didn't want
to be a retailer, that wasn'tthe goal. It was I can become a
retailer to kind of bounce upsome of some of the other things
I'm doing to kind of give them aboost. And so I opened my first
store, which was called theapothecary garden. It was in a

(07:25):
space that was 14 feet long byabout eight feet wide. And there
was a bathroom in there.

That's tiny,

Maia Toll (07:32):
but also it sounds kind of perfect. It was
adorable. It was back it wasback when FDA rules were
different than they were today.
So if you remember Lucy frompeanuts, and she had her little
booth where it was like, youknow, five cents for for
sessions, you could come in andyou could just stand at the
counter and talk to me and Iwould custom blend an herbal
formula for you. And so it was avery, like highly experiential

(07:54):
model, which I actually ended uploving. But the FDA rules around
herbs and supplements changed.
And it became literally illegalto do what I was doing

such a shame. So things shifted, though, because
of that, What did it look likeafter those FDA regulations.

Maia Toll (08:18):
So then we became much more of a typical retail
store. And we'd grown reallyfast, we outgrew our little tiny
space in nine months and movedto a bigger space. And this was
in Oh, 607 in Oh, eight. Andrew,my partner lost his job. So that
was the late recession. And hewas doing the you know,

(08:43):
depressed lay on the couchthing. And I kept saying, come
work with me come work with me.
And he kept saying, You don'teven get paid? How can I come
work with you and I was likeyou're laying on the couch, you
don't get paid either come workwith me. So we actually, like
use the time that he was onunemployment to find a way for
him to come into the business.

(09:05):
And we decided to open anotherstore. We used that kind of
cushioned time to segue tosecure a second lease and to
begin to build out on that spaceand to do all the things you do
before you actually open astore. And so he came off
unemployment and we open thestore. And all of a sudden, we

(09:29):
were much bigger. Like we wentfrom being just this kind of
itty bitty one woman show tohaving two locations and all the
economies of scale that you getwith multiple locations and the
cloud you get with multiplelocations.

Right? So I want to go back though really quickly
to Ireland and you sort of justleaving your life behind to go
sort of chase this dream wasn'tany dream it was so There share
with us that story and how youreally got on that path. And I'm
going to position this so that alot of the people who listen to

(10:06):
this podcast are on at thosevery beginning stages, and many
people often feel a little offput by how windy the
entrepreneurial path is, and howwe sort of taking so pitstops.
And sometimes we don't see howimportant they are until years
later. And I think we can allagree that this time for you was

(10:27):
hugely important.

Maia Toll (10:29):
Yeah, it was totally formative. And it was never
meant to have anything to dowith work. So, you know, I think
I gloss over it in aconversation like this, because
it for me at the time, did notfeel like it was at all a part
of not even my career journey,let alone my entrepreneurial

(10:50):
journey. In my 20s, I got thekind of sick that the doctors
didn't know what to do with. SoI was living in New York City at
the time. And I had a fabulousyoung medical doctor MD, who was
studying Chinese medicine on theside. And after months and
months and months of every kindof bloodwork imaginable on her

(11:11):
kind of looking me up and downand saying, like, I can tell
your sec, I can see it, I cansee wacky stuff in your blood
work. And but you know, Westernmedicine is not going to figure
this out. She said, I'm studyingChinese medicine, but I don't
know enough about it yet. But Ithink you need something like
different than what I canprovide. And she sent me loose
in the wilds of New York Cityand said, you know, go, go Go

(11:34):
find someone. And that waspretty much about as much
direction as I had. AlternativeMedicine was not a thing then it
was like weird, like I was goingto like these dingy dark rooms
in people's basements and justlike down into Chinatown like,
now we're used to acupuncturistswho have their office on Main

(11:57):
Street and also speak English.
You know, I was meeting withpeople, we didn't understand
each other at all, I got stickout your tongue and give me your
rest. And that was about it. Andso slowly, but surely over the
course of a year, I startedgetting better. And I also got
really intrigued withalternative medicine, and
started studying herbs, notbecause herbs healed me Everyone

(12:20):
loves school, oh, herbs healJube. I actually think that like
a really ridiculously strictelimination diet that identified
some pretty hardcore foodintolerances is what is what got
me on the right path. But Ibecame fascinated with herbs and
with the connection that I gotwith the planet itself with the
growing things, you know, ifyou're, if you're interested in

(12:41):
plants, then you're also bydefault, learning about the
cycles of the sun and the moonand the water tables, and the
wind and all these things thatcome into play. Plants teach you
about connection. And I was muchmore interested probably in that
idea of connection that in theplants themselves, but the
plants were a vehicle in afabulous vehicle for me. So I

(13:05):
began studying. In themeanwhile, I moved out of New
York City and to a small town,Upstate and I, I bought a house,
the town was like this little,you know, old mill town that had
gone to hell in a handbasket.
And I bought a house for $87,000and it needed everything. And so

(13:29):
I was teaching elementaryschool, I was studying herbalism
and at that point, someshamanism as well. And fixing my
house, like every day, I'msanding floors and patching
sheetrock and the whole thewhole deal. And that went on for
a couple of years. And then mylife in that place just started
to unwind. It was reallyinteresting. It was one thing

(13:53):
after another thing fallingaway. And I've been working with
the plants long enough that Iunderstood seasonality. I
understood that, you know,things take see they take root,
they grow and then they wane,you know and that things add up.
And I could see that ebbing ofmy time in this particular place

(14:15):
in my life. So I put my house upfor sale, having no idea what I
was doing or where I was going.
It was this like incredible leapof faith birth birthed by my
study of pattern and myunderstanding of the cyclicality
of the seasons of life and justlike okay, I believe in this

(14:38):
wholeheartedly. And this life isdying and the best thing I could
do is let it so I did have adream. A sleeping dream not an I
Have a Dream Dream and that'sthe difference. You know, I do
think that a lot ofentrepreneurs have an I Have a
Dream Dream. Like like thisburning passion for something. I
Had a sleeping dream. And in mysleeping dream, a very

(15:01):
androgynous woman with like kneelength long, dark hair, flew me
over the ocean to an island thatwas incredibly wooded, but I
knew it was Ireland, Ireland isnot now wooded. And she said,
this is where you're going to goto be initiated.
And so I woke up the nextmorning, and I knew it was

(15:25):
Ireland. And I'd had this ideain my in my head that like
nature abhors a vacuum, youbetter figure out girlfriend,
what the heck you're doing,selling your house, otherwise,
you're gonna just end up in yourparents basement going like,
what the heck just happened tomy life. So I had already
started a list of everything I'dever been interested in studying

(15:46):
or learning or doing and hadn'thad time for I'd been an
elementary school teacher foryears. And I just started
putting into the computer,Ireland plus weaving Ireland
plus ceramics. And this was thiswas before Google existed. So
this was AltaVista searchengine, for those of you who are
pre Google. And I wasn't getting100 pages of answers like this

(16:11):
was early days of the internet.
I was getting like three pagesof answers or half a page of
answers. And one name keptcoming up over and over again.
And that was this medicine womanin Ireland. So I went on her
website, and she had a classstarting, like, six months
later, and I signed up, and Itook myself to Ireland. And then

(16:32):
I then I begged her to keep me,you know, after that class was
over, I was like, Can I be yourapprentice. And so that's how
that happened.

I love that I love that it was a dream, like a
sleeping dream is that the sortof like inkling that you had
that caused your entire life toshift and was sort of a seed
that was planted that grew into?
We just found out as to stores.
But it's also so much more thanthat as well. You also teach

(17:06):
online programs you were anauthor, share with us a little
bit about those things as well.
Yeah, so

Maia Toll (17:14):
I've been teaching in person for a decade. When I
started hit burnout, I had beenteaching the same class over and
over again, it was like a yearlong intro class. And I started
to get to the point where I waslike, if I ever have to say
these words, again, I'm going torip my eyeballs out. So I

(17:40):
decided that if I videoedeverything like one last go
round, that I can move itonline. So I moved, the first
thing I moved online was all myherbal teachings and for for
those of you who are familiarwith herbal ism at all, a woman
named Rosemary gladstar, who'skind of like the grandmother of
American herbalist. herbalismrecently bought that whole

(18:04):
course, because we had gotten itapproved for nursing continuing
ed credits. And so she took overthat entire program, and she's
going to be reading it for fornurses, which I'm super excited
about like, because I hitburnout, burnout again, like
first I hit burnout in person,then I recorded it all. And then
I hit burnout online with thatprogram. And I realized that I

(18:26):
have kind of done my time withherbalism.

And when did you launch this online course?
Because you were like, a firstonline course on the internet.
Very early way before it gottrendy.

Maia Toll (18:41):
Yeah. So I think that that course was like 2012. Yeah,
2013, something like that. Andthe same year that I launched
that course, I also launchedsomething. And again,
accidentally, it was the intent.
The intent was I had puttogether these workbooks that

(19:01):
were supposed to like kind ofcreate one of those subscription
boxes. And those beforesubscription boxes, nobody was
doing subscription boxes, and Iwas like, like, I have this
idea. Let's make this workbookand every month you'll be
introduced to one ERP and someexercises, and you'll get the
goods. And it'll all come in abox. And at the time, I had a

(19:22):
very techie woman on my team.
And she said, I really want tomake a WordPress site to go with
us. And so we we made this likecrazy WordPress site. And the
subscription box idea kind ofjust fell by the wayside. And we
made this crazy WordPress sitethat was like find your own

(19:43):
adventure. And the program, Ihad been calling it like your
wise, wonderful and wacky herbalyear or something like that. And
internally, we were calling itwhich camp. It was always a joke
that we were the witches andthis was you know, and so this
was camp. And finally, this,this very tacky woman said, I

(20:06):
cannot, I can't work on thisanymore, unless you are willing
to change the name to whichcamp, she's like it's witch
camp. That's just what it is.
And so, so which camp was bornvery haphazardly and
accidentally, and it's still, Istill teach which camp every
every autumn, for the first likefour years a brand all year

(20:27):
round. And now it's kind ofmoved to an autumn slot. And
it's, you know, like, it's mybig online launch every year.
And then all year round, we havesomething called the net score,
which is, like more of a smallercommunity, it's not constant
classes, although I have so manyfabulous teachers in there now
that it's kind of becoming like,if you want it to be constant

(20:49):
classes. It can be because it'slike a school, and you can join
a whole bunch of differentclubs, and they all have
fabulous teachers. I love this.

Because it what you're sort of illustrating here
is the ability to sort of goafter something that you're
interested and layer on, sort ofstreams of revenue, not to like,
I almost feel like that, thatdoes a disservice to the passion
that drives the thing. But whatyou're doing is building a
business. And instead of thething that I really want to

(21:25):
point out here is instead ofsort of reinventing yourself
every year, every two years,which is what so many creative
entrepreneurs are doing, you arecreating something and you were
running it year after year afteryear and iterating it year after
year, until it becomes a sort ofstaple in the community or
become sellable, like that onecourse did to Rosemary gladstar,

(21:48):
you were greenies things andreally committing yourself to
them, to see what it is thatthey become.

Maia Toll (21:55):
Yeah, and I think, you know, it's it is that, and
it's also the constant creativeprocess. And so I think of it a
lot like gardening, you know,you have to plant a ton of
seeds. And then when you haveall your seed starts, you've got
to go in, you've got to pinchthe ones that are weak. If you
don't pinch out the weak ones,then the roots tangle up with

(22:16):
the strong ones, and you end upwith nothing. So you've really
got to keep pinching out theweak ones. And, you know, it's
an ever evolving process, likemy brand is not clean, it
doesn't all hang togetherperfectly. You know it, there's
been moments of diversions thatwe've been trying to fix for
years at this point. But it'ssomething that I'm in, I'm in it

(22:41):
constantly I'm creating with it,and allowing it to grow and
breathe and sometimes die.

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acuity scheduling, calm slashbeing boss. Alright, I want to
talk at least a little bit aboutsort of your latest creative

(23:53):
endeavors which I think havebeen the things that maybe
you've become most known for atthis point. And these are the
books that you've written. So Iimagine a lot of bosses here may
have seen the beautifulillustrated herb airy book that
you wrote. It's actually part ofa larger series so there's the
herb vieri bc area bc area andthe soon to be released crystal

(24:19):
area which is gorgeous, sobeautiful. I cannot wait to have
it my hands. Tell us a littlebit about creating those things
because those I think are goingto be one of those very strong
pillars in what is you knowobviously a very long career
that you have had and I knowwe'll continue to have

Maia Toll (24:43):
so the but I mean the books are interesting the books
are like everything else in myin my life. They were not direct
it was not easy like I you know,I know a lot of people,
including you, Emily, who youhad a very clear message,
somebody You know, Agent wise,saw your blog or read or heard

(25:04):
the blog or heard the podcastand was like, okay, we want a
book from that person on thistopic. Or, you know, the other
thing I've seen is entrepreneurswere like, Okay, I need one
book, because it's going tobecome the like, the thing kind
of the canon of what I teach.
Didn't happen that way for me.

(25:28):
So I hope that I'm giving tonsof inspiration to all of you who
take circuitous paths, becausethere's nothing in my life that
has not been circuitous. I mean,I even think back to when I was
a kid, and my whole familyskied. And so every year, we
would take these ski vacations.
And I planted myself on the babyHill, everyone else would go

(25:53):
off, and we'd go skiing withother families. So like three
families, go off skiing, byMaya, enjoy the baby Hill, see
you at four o'clock. And for Ithink it was a good six or seven
years, I skied the baby Hill, Iskipped the baby Hill, I made up
my own exercises, I created myown obstacle courses, I skied on

(26:13):
one foot, I did like, you nameit, I did it until I was so
good. And so comfortable on thatfrickin baby Hill. That one day,
I was like, Oh, I'm done withthe baby Hill. And I took the
chairlift to the top of themountain and started skiing, the
expert runs. And I didn't eventell him, like, I didn't tell

(26:34):
anybody I didn't, you know, gooff with my family. I just was
like, oh, okay, now it's time togo to the top of the mountain.
And that's pretty much the way Ido everything. Like I, I dig
into those baby steps. And I dothem over and over and over
again, until I get reallycomfortable. And then I take

(26:56):
myself up a level or three, likea lot of times I go from like
zero to 60. Because I've spentso much time at that slow, like
really understanding place thatI just skip over like a whole
bunch of next steps. And that'spretty much like the book

(27:18):
journey has been similar. Thebooks that Emily, you were
talking about? Those are my babysteps, like, Well, probably
actually, the blog was my babysteps First, you know, I blogged
for a dozen years, and then thebooks. And now we're shopping
like a longer book that I thinkit's going to eclipse the

(27:40):
others. I think it's reallygoing to eclipse the others. So
for me, I'm a writer, I'm awriter at heart, I've been
writing my whole life. Iblogging, if you are a writer,
if you're a closet writer, orsomeone who feels like it's in
you to write a book blog,blogging teaches you how to

(28:01):
write, and the deadline thatkind of like, Oh, I have to, you
know, put this out into theworld once a week or once a
month, whatever your deadlineis, it is super important for
like honing your ability towrite to a deadline to write to
a word count, to take somethingthat might just be a passion and
turn it into a skill becausethere's a difference. So I've

(28:23):
been blogging for a number ofyears, and one day, I got an
email from Rosemary gladstar,the woman who ended up buying my
course, I did not know her well,the email was out of the blue.
I've never gotten an email fromher before in my life. And it
was a very short enologist said,Have you ever thought about

(28:43):
writing a book? I think youshould. Here's the name of my
editor. And so I did what everylogical person who has when they
get the dream email, I buried itway down the bottom of my inbox.

Of course you did. Yes.

Maia Toll (29:03):
I lost that thing for a good four months. And then I
was I was actually in a writinggroup. And it was led by
Danielle Laporte and Lindacybersyn. And at the time, like
this is not the case anymore.
And the group has, I think thegroup still exists. But this is
not the case anymore. I don'teven think Danielle is a part of
it. But at the time, we did livecalls. And so I got on a call

(29:24):
with the group. And I was like,you guys, I got the name of an
editor from this woman I reallyadmire and I don't know what to
do because like I can't eventhink of a book topic. I don't
have a book at Danielle is likeI've got this one. And she's
like, sweetie, if you get thename of an editor, here's what

(29:48):
you do. You pull over the car,and you dial. That's what you
do. She's like Next question.

Geez. So did you pull over and dial. So I

Maia Toll (30:02):
pulled over and dialed, I pulled over and
dialed, and I was just my usualhonest self. I was like, I got
your name from rosemary. And Ilove writing, I've been writing
forever, but I don't think Ireally have a book. And the
woman, Deborah, who is now thehead of this publishing house,

(30:24):
that I that I write forcurrently got back to me right
away. And she said, That's not aproblem. She's like, we'll talk
and we'll find your book. And Iwas like, okay, so it actually
took about a year and a half,from that initial conversation,
to get to the point where I, youknow, and it was like, ups and

(30:45):
downs, I can tell you atremendously long story and eat
up an hour. Getting to the placeof having a solid idea. And that
idea, you know, became theseries. So, but even in the
beginning, like, we didn't knowthat the series was gonna stick.

(31:05):
I wrote the first book, I wascontracted with them for a
second book that was not part ofthe series had nothing to do
with the series. And the like,the first book, The Illustrated
herb era took off out of thegate. And then they were like,
oh, wow, we need like the secondbook you've been talking about
for the series. And so the bookI've actually written just kept
getting shelved and shelved andshelved. And I finally like,

(31:26):
like, I pulled it about sixmonths ago, because it just
became apparent that it wasalways going to be second best
to the serious, like at thispublishing house.

Unknown (31:39):
So yeah, and I love

it, that you're sharing here, the fact that you
never know what's going to stickand what doesn't, never, or not,
when it's going to stick, likemaybe things will stick one day
that you think are sticky. Butyou don't actually know when
they're going to be sticky?
Yeah. Yeah,

Maia Toll (31:59):
it's interesting.
It's reminded me actually of myteacher in Ireland, she used to
say, you know, you can do aspell setting intention, put
something in motion. She said,the one thing you can't control
is the timing. She said, you canyou know, you can line up all
the other pieces, but you can'tline up the timing. Right? Isn't
that the truth?

For sure. Okay, so I want to dive a little bit
more into a couple of thingsthat you've said. And in
particular, what's really comingto the forefront for me is the
fact that your business which isgrown into a large business, and
has multiple revenue streams,you have physical locations, you

(32:40):
have online products, you havemultiple published books. It
fills as rich and multifacetedas you are yourself. Is there a
question there, darling? Thatwas just a statement now? Well,
thank question. Right. So youknow, your business is an

(33:03):
expression of yourself. It's,you know, it's been windy, there
have been things that have stuckthings that haven't. How do you
feel about that? Or like,looking back on it? Has it
happened the way you wanted itto happen? Are you where you
want to be? And like, what isyour relationship with that?

Unknown (33:19):
Hmm,

Maia Toll (33:21):
that's a great question. You know, I think when
you say, Did it happen the wayyou wanted it to happen, that
implies way more of a plan thanthere ever was, you know, like,
even this concept of being anentrepreneur, I feel like, I
feel like this concept of beingan entrepreneur came into being

(33:41):
during the time that I wascreating this business. You
know, I mean, when I startedthings, like you were just a
business owner, I don't even Idon't think we use the word
entrepreneur, like that's kindof come up with this, like idea
of women owned businesses, andelevating the role of the

(34:08):
business owner, you know, tosomething like, more creative, I
think, than simply like, runningthe day to day. There's been
this elevation of the role of abusiness owner, but like when we
started, and especially whenenter came on board, I used to
joke that we had a mom and popshop. And we did, we were a mom

(34:31):
and pop and we had a shop, youknow, so like some of this, some
of this language and some ofthis, like creating, creating a
trajectory for yourself, I thinkhas come into consciousness as
I've been growing my businessand so I didn't have some great
big plan. I was like, lookingnot to be the employee of people

(34:55):
I didn't like being employed bythat was the big plan. So Yeah,
thumbs up to me I did that. Butin terms of, like, how
comfortable is it now? It isit's getting, it's getting more
comfortable, it's beginning tofeel like more of a reflection

(35:17):
of who I am and how my how Ilive my life it got it got a
little like overgrown and messyfor a while there. And we've
been kind of reining things intightening things back up, we're
about to go into like a productrebrand, that I think is going
to help a lot. There's beenmoments where I haven't

(35:37):
understood the connectionbetween the different parts of
my own business. I could, Icould feel that they were there,
but I couldn't verbalize them.
And I think some of that was myown blind spots. But I also
think that some of that was,again, culture changing. Like
when I first got into this, mostpeople weren't using herbs in

(36:00):
their daily life. And when Ifirst started using the word,
which when I put which camp outthere, I got like nasty ass
emails. I mean, it was a wordthat really triggered people.
And now there's like, which weekin Vogue magazine, I mean, the
the culture has changed so much.
And there's one woman on my teamthat like, I've said to her a

(36:23):
couple times in variousdifferent ways, oh, my God, I
totally missed the boat, on thiswhole movement. And she's like,
What are you talking about? Youwere the boat. And I don't like
I don't see myself that way. AndI don't, I don't see that I have
that big a place in the currentculture. Like, I don't think I

(36:47):
have a very no name. But I dothink that I was one of the
people writing the first waves,and figuring out you know, how
to use these words and thesefeelings that I think we're
coming back this like sense ofwanting to be connected and

(37:10):
wanting a life in sync with theearth, even though like that's
not physically what you'redoing. Right. So I think people
were kind of struggling withlike the back to the earth
movement, and homesteading. Andlike searching for that place
where they could be connected.
And a lot of people like me,like, I'm not cut out for

(37:33):
homesteading, my back would notput up with that shit. You know,
like, I'm just hard labor withLady up heart.
So as much as I romanticized andone of that lifestyle, I knew
that I actually wasn't cut outfor it. So how do you still find
that sense of connection withoutactually being the person who's

(37:55):
chopping the wood, and, youknow, raising the chickens and,
and doing, you know, a lot ofheavy lifting with that kind of
lifestyle is heavy lifting. Soit's that place where you're
combining a modern lifestylewith being aware of the patterns
and the energies and the ways ofworking with the direct products

(38:16):
of the earth, the herbs andthings like that. And that was a
concept that was like, had beenswelling for many decades. But I
think that at the point that Istepped in, it was kind of
reaching a crescendo. And now,you know, which is an Instagram
is one of the most popularhashtags out there. So the world

(38:39):
has shifted. And that's allowingme to start to find either words
or imagery sometimes to yank thethreads and pull some things
back together that I always feltwere connected. But I think in
public consciousness, we'restill divergent, like other

(38:59):
people couldn't see how theyconnected. And now because of
shifts in culture, I think thoseconnections are, are clearer to
all of us. Right.

First, I see your humbleness. You are the
boat in so many ways, Maya, forsure. And I feel like I feel
like you've done such a good jobof sort of bringing those
threads together to make thoseconnections. And I will say to
one of the things that youtalking about, you know, working

(39:34):
What did you say? I said hardwork would lay me apart? Yeah.
Yeah, then that you recognize inyourself that you are an
educator or you are a writer,like you are great with sharing
these concepts. And I thinkthere's something very powerful
in just knowing what it is thatyou're good at and doing that
thing. Like you've definitelymade it your mission to find

(39:56):
those opportunities for yourselfor more correctly. create those
opportunities for yourself.

Maia Toll (40:03):
Yeah, I think that's I think that's true. And I, you
know, one of the things that Itry to do on my team and with
everyone who works for us is, ifthey don't know what they're
good at, help them find whatthey're good at. And always try
to be aware of people'sstrengths. Like even our, you

(40:23):
know, our retail employees.
Everybody has their own specialproduct project, like everyone
is assigned to something thataligns with their strengths, and
what they're good at. Becauseeveryone's not good at the same
thing, like a cookie cutter jobmade me miserable. And so I will
not get people cookie cutterjobs. And also, everyone knows

(40:43):
their schedule.

Good, good. I think that's important to
creating the business that youalways wanted to be a part of,
is definitely what most of usare do. And I think that comes
in many different forms for manypeople your schedule.

Maia Toll (41:03):
Yeah, mine is scheduled. Because the thing is,
when you don't have thestructure around your own life,
if somebody else is holding thatand not sharing it with you,
then you can't fill in theblanks, you know, and we're
really lucky that people whowant to work in a shop that
sells herbs and you know,practical magic, like those

(41:27):
people are usually prettyfriggin cool, and they're pretty
happy to be there. But thatdoesn't mean that they don't
want to be able to

Unknown (41:36):
put

Maia Toll (41:38):
a doctor's appointment or client
appointment if they have a sidegig. Time to make lip balms or
grow their garden or go to themovies or go visit their mom.
Everybody wants to put that onthe schedule, and know that it's
just as safe and sacred as likethe 10 o'clock start time for
work.

One of the questions that we get asked most
often is how do I find mybusiness bestie which is
sometimes even phrased as a Howdo I make friends as an adult.
As a total introvert who doesn'thave a ton of discretionary time
on my hands, I understand howyou may be struggling with
finding the right connectionsand making time to nurture those

(42:20):
relationships. But if there'sone thing I will swear by, its
how important doing just that isfor not only you as a person,
but you as a business owner andentrepreneur, which is why I've
made it my mission to give you aplace to gather events to join
in and topics to kick off theconversation. I want to remove

(42:41):
as many barriers as I can foryou so that you can get the
support you need to findfulfilment in the work you do by
having a PAL or a dozen to sharethe journey with you. All of
this happens in the being bosscommunity, a place for you to
meet like minded creativebusiness owners. jump in on our
weekly Monday meetup calls theplug in and join the

(43:02):
conversation with monthlythemes, weekly prompts, and
more. We give you a place andreason to show up. And what
happens next happens all themore easily because of it. We
have bosses in the community whoare connecting in the DMS to
schedule zoom calls to connect,getting together groups for yoga
challenges and book clubs, andeven hiring each other to help

(43:24):
each other take it to the nextlevel. To learn more about
what's happening in the beingboss community, and to see if
it's a good fit for you go tobean boss dot club slash
community membership starts atas little as $11 a month with
tears available for moreengagement, more content and
closer connections to next levelbosses that's being boss dot

(43:45):
club slash community. I hope tosee you there. Okay, so I want
to dive really quickly intosomething that we've talked
about before. And I wanted tobring into this space because I
think it's fascinating anythingthat you've been at this long
enough, and you've done so manydifferent things in your
business, that you are uniquelypositioned to have this

(44:09):
conversation. And this is theidea of using your business as
an expression of your personalcreativity. So most of us are
creatives. That's why we'rehere. That's who we're talking
to specifically on this podcast.
And you know, even people whoare in not creative fields. So
we have a lot of accountants andreal estate agents and those

(44:31):
kinds of people. But they'rehere usually because of this
idea that they're going aboutbusiness in a different way. And
they're just they're creatingtheir business for themselves,
usually in new and differentways. And I think we've all sort
of seen the picture you'vepainted of your life in terms of
you sort of creating thesethings as you as you've gone

(44:53):
based on what you're interestedin or how things need to be
delivered or in Some cases sortof combating your own burnout
with previous iterations ofthese creations. So I'd love to
hear you talk about using yourbusiness as an expression of
your creativity, and how that'shelped you make it to where you
are now.

Maia Toll (45:16):
Yeah, you know, I think it's really interesting to
draw that distinction betweenbeing a creative, like, kind of
selling their creativity toother people. And like, what I
think I do, which is, like, mybusiness is my creative
expression. I think that's agreat way, there are painters,

(45:38):
and, you know, there arewoodworkers and I built my
business. And I think that itcan also be incredibly
frustrating to people. Becausejust like, you know, imagine me
sculpting clay. And there areother people involved in this
clay, but I'm just like, oops,don't like that

Unknown (45:59):
Smash.

Maia Toll (46:00):
Or, you know, like lop that off. And that's, that's
how I roll like to be on myteam, you've got to be super
Okay, with the moment like mycalls at eight o'clock in the
morning and says team meeting atnine. Hi, everyone, guess what,

(46:20):
this whole program, it's over,figure out how to unravel it,
because we're doing this. Youknow, like, that's, that's real.
And that's not uncommon. So

Unknown (46:32):
it's,

Maia Toll (46:34):
it's interesting, because I think that oftentimes,
a piece of art has, like abeginning, a middle and an end.
You know, you have a concept,you start it, and you get to a
point where it's done. You know,if you are someone who sells
your art, you get to the pointwhere it's like is good enough,

(46:55):
and you put send it to thegallery, or however it is that
you're, you're moving things outinto the world. I mean, like for
me, as an author, I get to apoint where a book is done
enough. I mean, I go into theaviary, I go into the beast era,
I could rewrite those booksuntil the cows come home. Like
I'm constantly wanting to jiggerwith sentences and things like
that. I've actually, there was asentence that was making me

(47:17):
crazy every time I read it outloud at book signings and stuff,
and I called my editor and I waslike, You have got to fix this
on the next reprint. And she waslike, You're, you're crazy. I'm
like, No, you must, or I willnever read that page out loud
again. So if you have one of thefirst editions of the obituary,

(47:38):
and you look at the rosemarypage, and then you check a later
edition, they're different. Soyeah, I mean, like, every artist
knows, it's, it's hard, you kindof never stopped. But when
you're putting a product outinto the world, there's there
comes a point where it's doneenough. But with a business,
you're iterating on this living,breathing thing, like your you

(48:01):
don't get to the point whereit's done. I mean, I suppose,
like when you sell it toRosemary gladstar, you know what
I mean? Like, when you sell apiece off to someone else, at
that point, it's done, but thenthey're taking it and iterating
on it. So it's, it's like aliving artwork, and you are
growing and changing as aperson. And I think that the

(48:26):
only way you're not going toburn out is if your business is
also like living, breathing,shifting, changing. Not not from
a place of like, you know,wildly going off in a million
different directions, like kindof like you don't who you are
yet, and you've put it slapped abusiness name on your confusion.

(48:49):
And so, you know, everyone getsto witness like, Oh, I'm a Reiki
Master today. And then I'm a dogwalker. And and actually, you've
seen the business cards forthose people, right? You're
like, wow, what are you anexpert at? But instead, finding
kind of the core of who you are,and then realizing there's lots

(49:11):
of different ways to expressthat. And just iterating on
those expressions, and alsorealizing that culture is
changing. You know, like,culture is changing around you,
I I've had some big Wake UpCalls with just watching culture
shift around me in the pastyear. And so are you going to

(49:34):
stay relevant? You know, or, orare you going to be
counterculture in this newculture, maybe you never were
before but as culture changes,you become counterculture. Just
that kind of sense of like thedance of the business as a
creative act that is ongoing andliving and breathing, but it's
also dancing with your customerswith culture, with what's going

(49:58):
on in the world.

I think what you've done here is given
context is something that I'vealways struggled with in terms
of like who we're serving hereat being boss. Because creative
entrepreneurs, I think it verymuch so easily implies artists,
and photographers and designersand those kinds of people mean,

(50:21):
those are the obvious creatives.
But even I've always struggledwith how is it that we really
lump in everyone else who seesthemselves as creative
entrepreneurs, and by creativeentrepreneur, entrepreneurs, I
mean, not traditionalentrepreneurs, like they're
doing things in new anddifferent ways. And I think
you're spot on there wherethere's like there are, there's
a type of entrepreneur who seesbusiness as an art form. And

(50:44):
that is the sort of everchanging, ever evolving street
you have to keep up with thingslike culture and technology,
those sorts of things. But youalso can use it as an evolving
expression of yourself with sortof focus and intention, right,
so it's not Reiki Master a dogwalker, but it's, you know, you

(51:05):
were an educator and then anauthor. So it's sort of walking
down the same road from one endto the other, not necessarily
going off on every differentpath along the way. So I
appreciate that you have putthat into context and like a
workable context and notcontacts from someone who's you

(51:27):
know, been doing business fortwo or three years in is calling
themselves you know, a creativeentrepreneur who's just you
know, an accountant doingbusiness in a different way. But
you are an herbalist turnededucator, I guess educator
turned herbalist, yeah, turnedherbalist educator, turned
author, but also CEO all alongthe way, and how this business

(51:49):
has really taken on sort of thecharacteristics and wind Enos of
your own life path to bring youto a place that really does make
a lot of sense. Like it doesn'tit's not choppy, it's not weird.
It's just a journey, and naturalevolution of the thing that I

(52:09):
don't know you've been created,creating based on what you need
out of your professional career.

Maia Toll (52:19):
The journey is the ultimate metaphor for learning
in life. You know, if somebodywants to talk to you about how
you need to kind of, like getyourself through the ups and
downs and everything else, theyalways talk about the journey,
right. And I think that thebusiness journey is the

(52:41):
penultimate teacher, I thinkeverything you need to know
about life and about yourself,and about how to relate to other
people, even about spirituality,you can learn through business,
if you let yourself. So yeah, Imean, I think the creative
business journey, like that'sit, you know, it's everything

(53:05):
you learn, you learn all thethings, you learn all the things
and you go through the ups andthe downs, and it's a co
creative process, like yourbusiness takes on a life of its
own. It's like, bringing a childinto the world, you know, you
bring something into the world.
And then you're walking with it,and you're tending to it, and

(53:30):
you're listening to it, andyou're dancing with it, and
trying to figure out what itneeds to grow, and what you need
to grow. And if they're the samething, because like with that
course, that I sold off, right,it got to the place where in
order for that piece of mybusiness, to fulfill its own
destiny, to go out and educatenurses, which, you know, as a

(53:52):
group of people who desperatelyneed to be exposed to some
different ways of thinking andto have the comfort and the
connection that the plants bringinto my life like nurses, they
desire that when I talk tonurses, they're like, please
give me give me a head of that.

(54:15):
But for in order for that pieceof the business to be able to
fulfill that destiny. I had tolet it go. And so that's part of
it, too is when you feel intoyour business as a living,
breathing being, you know whatit needs?

You've been building your business for a
decade and a half. So math,correct there. Yep. How have you
stayed inspired and motivatedfor that

Maia Toll (54:46):
long? You know, I think a lot of it is that idea
that it's a creation. This isthat this is not something that
is the same every day. You know,I think that actually spoke to
Andrew about this because Andrewruns the stores. And Andrews job

(55:10):
is repetitive. And he loves thatit's repetitive, he treats it
like a meditation, you know, ifhe has to pack up 50 boxes, it's
like, it's the meditation ofpacking up 50 boxes, if he has
to enter all the sales intoQuickBooks, that's a meditation
for him. And so, for someonewith his personality, the

(55:33):
repetition, becomes what allowshim to find the freedom within
the job. You know, like his, hismind can kind of like slip free
of the particular work, he'sdoing his hands know how to pack
the box, his brain doesn't haveto be 1,000,000% in that game.
Whereas for me, it's theopposite, like the repetition

(55:55):
would kill me. So being able to,you know, shift and dance and
find the next Spark. That's whatfeeds me. And I think that
there's this balance. And I findthis like, we have little
networks within the business,where you have someone who's a

(56:16):
creator, paired with someone whoactually can take their creation
and make it a reality. You know,so Andrew does that. Shannon, my
like, lead the lead person on myteam does that I spit out ideas
at a million miles an hour, thetwo of them sift through, choose

(56:38):
ones that might actually work.
Toss them back to me say focuson this for a little while I
toss it back and say make this areality. It's not, it's not one
person trying to do everything,it's the different members of
the team, finding the placesthat feed them. And then working
like working that groove. I love

what you're saying here is basically you've
systemized it. Right? Youfigured out like a what you
need, and more or less, buthumans in general need to stay
motivated and inspired to do thething to consistently be
creating sometimes, apparentlyjust very on the fly. And you've

(57:24):
made it part of the structure ofyour business, which is I think
easily how it is that you'vebeen able to start, grow and
sustain that growth over thepast decade and

Unknown (57:38):
a half.

Maia Toll (57:40):
I agree. And it was, it was accidental, in some ways,
like just like everything else,you know, Andrew came on board,
not because he was totally intoherbs, and mysticism and the
types of things that I'm into,but because he was out of a job.
I think that a lot of times welook for someone who's just like

(58:02):
us, you know, like, I alwayslooked for someone who was like
a spark to my Spark, let's gocombust together. And that
doesn't really work in business,if you have two people who just
sparking ideas, and then youlook at each other stupidly and
be like, I don't know how tomake this happen. That's not a

(58:24):
great pairing. So I think Ithink the challenge that all of
us face and that we just need tokind of see clearly for
ourselves so that we can handleit differently is Who are you
attracted to? You know, are youattracted to someone whose skill
set is exactly like yours? Areyou hiring people, partners,
people who have the same skillset as you because that doesn't,

(58:47):
it doesn't work in the longhaul.

Alright, I want to start wrapping this up a bit.
But I do want to hit reallyquickly on something that I know
you're very aligned with. Weactually had you at the
conference, you came and did anintuitive writing workshop for
all the bosses who were there,it was some of the boss's
favorite event. I was actuallyeven thinking about my answers
on my walk this morning. You sayso it Stevens it's even still

(59:12):
sticking around with me. Sothank you very much for that.
But I do want to ask you how itis that for you personally? How
is it that you find yourintuition and your creativity?
And your playing? Because youare you always fascinate me with
your ability just like tune intoyour intuition, just like
without even thinking aboutyou're like, you know what, I

(59:32):
feel this. You just like very intuned. How are you seeing your
intuition and your creativityare playing together as you are
navigating all of thesedecisions and movements?

Maia Toll (59:44):
Yeah, that's a great question. Especially with the
books, they are the same thing.
You know, intuition is where Iplay creatively in the books.
And I haven't thought about thisbefore, but it does make me
think like realizing that thatthat might be the case in the

(01:00:06):
business as well. That like whatsparks? What does does the
intuition spark the nextcreative movement? Or does like
just getting in and playing withthe creativity allow the
intuition to spark? I'm notsure. Which is the chicken in
which is the egg or or even ifit matters, but I think in me,
they, if they weren't the samething, originally, I think they

(01:00:30):
might be the same thing. Now,you know, even if they used to
be two separate facets of mypersonality, kind of creativity
and intuition. I think they'vegotten married.

Unknown (01:00:43):
And,

Maia Toll (01:00:45):
yeah, like, I kind of feel like, I don't know whether
they've gotten married orwhether they've merged, they
might just be one thing at thispoint.

Emily Thompson (01:00:56):
And how but how did you get there?

Unknown (01:00:57):
Like, what

did you do? What have you been doing to a place
where you feel so calm, socomfortable with, or you even in
a place where you think they'rethe same thing?

Maia Toll (01:01:09):
I suspect that it goes back to when I got sick in
my 20s. And I needed to tuneinto my body in this really
granular way, I needed tounderstand, not just that I had
a vague ache, you know, over onthe left side, I needed to feel

(01:01:33):
into it much more deeply. Sothat I could find language for
these people who were trying tohelp me because their diagnostic
tools weren't working. And so Ihad to be able to describe in
itty bitty detail what I wasfeeling so that somebody else

(01:01:58):
could go, Oh, that's your nervesdoing this, that and the other.
Right? So I turned inward inthis way that wasn't murky, or
airy, fairy or fuzzy. And I kindof learned the language of my

(01:02:20):
body in this incredibly nuancedway. And then, and you know, at
the time, I was using it forlike this, like describing this,
these very physical sensationsof the illness. But having that
level of tuning into my body,has then allowed me to see how

(01:02:47):
my body responds to differentinformation coming in, and feel
it and understand it reallyinstantly. So not only
information coming in, like, youknow, a phone call, Oh, do you
want to have an interview withso and so and knowing whether
that's a yes or no, but also allthe information that's coming

(01:03:09):
in, through your skin throughyour pores through, like
wavelengths that you don't evenrealize your eyes are seeing.
There's so much information outin the world that our brain
doesn't consciously interpret.
But we're still like, we'restill taking it in. You know,
and it's easy for this to soundwoowoo. But science will tell

(01:03:29):
you that there are zillions ofspectrums, probably not a
zillion science would be waymore specific than that, of
light that like of color, thatyou're not interpreting from the
light that other kinds of eyesare interpreting, but it's all
there. And so it's like, it's,it's there to be had. And I
think that we're constantlygetting information that our

(01:03:52):
brain doesn't quite know what todo with. But it still registers.
And I think that that's a lot ofwhat intuition is, is all that
information that's kind of, youknow, it gets around the
thinking centers of your brainbecause it's not being pulled
in, in the ways that we know howto put words to or, or know how

(01:04:13):
to interpret with our fivesenses. So it's kind of like
radio signals that there's nochannel that matches them.
They're still out there. Andyour body's still reading them.
And so I think that havingdeveloped that fine tuned,

(01:04:33):
ability to read and understandmy body, as all this information
comes in, I'm just I'm justgrabbing it, and I might not
have words for it. I might noteven consciously be kind of
knowing like, Oh, you know, ifmy left knee aches, that's a
hardcore No, don't do that. LikeI might not be able to say that.

(01:04:54):
But I do know when somethingcomes at me and I'm like, Whoa,
no way.

So basically, like all hard earned abilities
you've practiced.

Maia Toll (01:05:06):
Yeah, I practice I practiced for for many, many
years. And I've also played,I've practiced and I've played,
you know, I am, I am as multipassionate in my spirituality as
I am in my business. And I havenever been a person who's kind

(01:05:28):
of been like, this is the rightway. I've always been like, wow,
the human race has come up witha gazillion different roads up
the same mountain. Let's trythis one. Let's try that one.
Let's see what's what works.
And, you know, I believe thatyou like, there's this thing
that can happen, where you'rejust hopping around so much that
you don't think deep intoanything. But I also think this
thing can happen where you canfind different ways of

(01:05:54):
enlivening the same spiritualpath. And so you're practicing,
but you're practicing like thesame thing through different
modalities, almost, if thatmakes any sense. It's kind of
like, if you want to build thecore muscles of your abdomen,
you can do that by yoga, you cando it by Pilates, you can do it

(01:06:15):
by weightlifting, and you'restill working the core muscles.
And I think that spiritualityhas a bit of that same thing
where there are different waysto do the same thing and tune
into the same thing. And soyou're still practicing even
though you're practicing throughmultiple modalities. So that's,
that's an interesting one,because there is a sense with

(01:06:42):
the word practice that you haveto stick to one thing. But it's
kind of like spiritual circuittraining, or your, you know, try
a little bit of this and tryinga little bit of that to kind of
build the overall strength.

Right. Oh, that is fascinating. Thank you so
much for sharing that and allthe things I'm so glad that I
was finally able to get you hereand introduce you to all of our
people. I think that yourperspectives and your experience
always brings a wealth of justwisdom that I know I personally

(01:07:26):
always find it very helpful asI'm navigating things. So I'm
hoping that everyone listeningto this has found that as well.
It can you share with everyonelistening where they can find
more about you?

Maia Toll (01:07:37):
Yeah, absolutely. So my website is Maya toll calm,
which is Ma, I am ay t o LL. Myatoll, calm and you know, the
shopping website is herb era,which is h er B by a ry.com. And
you can find my books there aswell as all sorts of products

(01:07:58):
for comfort, connection andpractical magic.

Perfect. And I have one last question for you.
What makes you feel most boss?
Oh, man,

Maia Toll (01:08:09):
I've been thinking about this one. Good. Because we
you know, we have the heads upfrom listening to other
episodes. This is a tough one.
Because it's not one thing. Youknow, I think in different like
there are different aspects offeeling boss. One of the things
that just always touches me I'mlike actually tearing up

(01:08:35):
thinking about it, is when oneof my students or employees
starts their own business thatmakes me feel boss, getting the
first copy of a book into myhands idea into form that makes
me feel boss, having mypublishing house, pay for my
plane tickets and my hotelrooms. That makes me feel boss.

(01:09:00):
I love

it. Thank you so much for coming to hang out with
us today, Maya.

Maia Toll (01:09:07):
I love it. I always love talking to you and I'm so
thrilled to share with yourwhole tribe.

Thanks for listening. And hey, if you want
more resources, we're talkingworksheets, free trainings in
person meetups and vacations andmore. Go to our website at www
dot beam boss dot club. Do thework the boss

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#231 - Business as Creative Expression with Maia Toll of Herbiary

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}#231 - Business as Creative Expression with Maia Toll of Herbiary