November 18, 2025 • 29 mins
In this inspiring episode of the Believe Big Podcast, Ivelisse sits down with Neil Broere—author, pastor, filmmaker, and global ministry leader—for a powerful conversation around his new book, Obedience, Suffering & Reward.
Neil shares eye-opening stories from his missionary work in Iraq, the transformative role fasting has played in his life, and the personal experiences that have shaped his deep trust in God.
Together, they explore how God uses our hardest moments to grow us, strengthen us, and reveal His faithfulness in ways we might never expect.
Neil offers hope-filled insights on navigating trials, overcoming “comfort-based Christianity,” and understanding the purpose behind our scars. His honest reflections and practical wisdom will leave you encouraged, challenged, and reminded that your story—no matter how difficult—can be a powerful testimony of God’s love and glory.
To learn more about Neil Broere:
https://www.neilbroere.com/about
Suggested Resources:
- BOOK: Obedience, Suffering & Reward
- STUDY GUIDE: Obedience, Suffering & Reward
- Follow Neil on Instagram
- Signup for Between Sundays, a weekly devotional
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Ivelisse Page (00:06):
Hi, I am Ivelisse Page and thanks for listening to
the Believe Big podcast, theshow where we take deep dive
into your healing with healthexperts, integrative
practitioners, biblical faithleaders, and cancer thrivers
from around the globe.
(00:34):
Welcome to today's episode onthe Believe Big Podcast.
My name is Ivelisse Page andit's always a pleasure to be
able to spend this time withyou.
On today's episode of theBelieve Big podcast, we welcome
Neil Broere, author, pastor,filmmaker, and global ministry
leader.
Neil is the teaching pastor atRadiant Church on California's
(00:57):
Central Coast and serves as theglobal director of Becoming Love
Ministries, where he helpspioneer gospel initiatives
around the world.
Before relocating to Californiain 2022, Neil and his wife
Lindsey, along with their fourchildren, spent six deeply
formative years as missionariesin Iraq, an experience that
(01:20):
transformed their faith andtaught them to trust God in ways
they never imagined.
Neil joins us today to talkabout his powerful new book,
Obedience, Suffering Reward, amust read for anyone who's ever
asked, God, why is this so hard?
In the book, Neil doesn't shyaway from the harsh realities of
(01:43):
following Jesus.
Instead, he dives into thetension between obedience and
suffering, revealing how Godoften leads us straight into the
fire, not to destroy us, but torefine us.
Through raw reflections from hisown life and rich stories from
scripture, Neil reminds us thatsuffering is not the end of the
(02:04):
story.
It's often the soil in which Godgrows the most beautiful
rewards.
Whether you're in a season ofhardship or standing at a
crossroads of faith, thisconversation will encourage you
to trust in God's redemptiveplan.
Neil's insights will challengeand inspire you to keep
following Jesus even when thepath leads through pain.
(02:27):
Because as his book sopowerfully declares, the way of
the cross is always the way toglory.
Welcome to the podcast, Neil!
Neil Broere (02:35):
Ivelisse, thank you for having me.
It's an absolute honor.
Ivelisse Page (02:40):
Well, it is a tradition here on our podcast to
start with our guest favoritehealth tip.
And I know you mentioned thatLindsey's the the big health
advocate, but I know you haveone, so could you share one with
us?
Neil Broere (02:53):
So, my favorite health tip would actually be
fasting.
Making fasting a typical, normalpart of your rhythm.
Of course we know the spiritualbenefits of fasting, but the
health benefits too often getignored from folks who pursue
fasting for the spiritualbenefits.
Yes, and I would, I would,personally, I don't fast for the
(03:15):
health benefits, but what I'vefound is when I fast, obviously
you're controlling your weight,you're increasing your
metabolism.
But two of the main benefitsthat I love health wise are
decreasing inflammation, andincreased cognitive, um,
processing.
Like I find that I have so muchmore mental clarity and
(03:38):
sharpness when I'm fasting.
Ivelisse Page (03:41):
That is a great tip.
And how long do you typicallyfast for?
Neil Broere (03:46):
I begin every year with a 40 day fast.
And then throughout the yearI'll do other smaller fasts.
Maybe I'll throw in another 40day fast, um, in the year as
well.
Ivelisse Page (03:57):
Wow.
That is amazing.
I don't think I've ever done a40 day food fast.
It is, uh, I, I can't evenimagine, but I know that a lot
of people do.
Is it a water fast or is it theDaniel Fast?
Or how, how do you do that?
Neil Broere (04:12):
Typically on the, the longer fast, the 40 day
fast, or even a 21 day fast,I'll do the first 10 to 14 days
of water and then I'lltransition to liquids.
Um, unless there's just thisrare month and a half that I can
vanish and not have anyresponsibilities.
But when you're pastoring achurch, when you're fathering
(04:32):
four children, that's usuallypretty rare, so I find that I
need to maintain some sort ofstrength in my body just to
fulfill my responsibilities andtransitioning to liquid during
that second half of the fastreally helps me do that.
Ivelisse Page (04:46):
Yeah.
That's amazing.
Yeah, I know when I've done theshort, fast, spiritually, you
know, anytime you get hungry itreminds you to pray and to keep
seeking him.
So it's such a constant reminderand I can say for me as well
that that is when I hear himmost clearly.
So I love that you do that tostart the year.
Maybe that's something I trythis coming January as we start
(05:10):
the new year, but today we're,we're talking about your book
and you talk about obeying Godwhen it doesn't make sense.
And what does that look like inyour own life?
Neil Broere (05:20):
It would be so much easier if God spoke our language
and he gave us, this is why Iwant you to do what I'm asking
you to do and this is what'sgonna happen.
But that's not the language thatGod speaks.
His language is the language offaith.
So often what he does is he willask us to do something that our
(05:40):
carnal mind doesn't make muchsense.
You know, it's like when heasked Abram to leave his family,
leave the city that he, he grewup in, leave everything and go
to the place that I'll show you.
He didn't tell him, this isexactly where I want you to go.
This is the directions you'regonna go.
It was a move by faith.
And what I've found in my lifeis the Lord is not often going
(06:04):
to explain everything on thefront end.
It's a step of faith, and as wego, he unpacks some of the
details, but often it's not evenuntil we get there or afterwards
that we realize, oh, this iswhat that was all about.
I'm thinking of Peter.
When Peter walked on water,there was a, that's a great
example of a step of faith, andI heard it put this way.
(06:27):
Peter wasn't walking on water,he was walking on the word of
the Lord.
The Lord said, come and, and,and Peter was standing on that
word by faith.
And it's the same when the Lordasks us to do something to obey
him.
It often doesn't come withclear, clear reasons or
instructions, but we step out byfaith.
Ivelisse Page (06:46):
I've heard that story so many times that I've
never heard it explained asstanding on his word, which is
even more powerful about thatstory.
What, what do you think is thedanger of comfort based
Christianity, you know, how isit distorting the gospel in your
opinion?
Neil Broere (07:04):
Yeah, I refer to it as the gospel of the American
Dream, which is come to Jesusand receive the best life you
could ever imagine.
And we get, we get, uh, ourdestination confused with our
assignment.
There, there is a promise foranyone who comes to Jesus.
Every tear will be wiped away.
(07:24):
That, that, that everythingimaginable that he created will
be received by us ininheritance.
But we can't confuse ourdestination with our assignment.
And I believe that gospel of theAmerican dream, it removes the
cross from the gospel, or atbest it, it applies the cross to
(07:45):
Jesus and what he did.
But it removes the cross for youand I to bear in our own lives.
And so when we walk throughtrials and difficulties, which
Jesus says will come all whochoose to follow him will
suffer.
Jesus wasn't playing around whenhe said, pick up your cross and
follow me.
When those things happen, it canbecome disorienting.
(08:07):
It can become confusing.
You think either you messed upor you know the enemy is
attacking you or whatever itmight be.
When all the while Jesus isusing some of our most difficult
situations to make us more likehim, just to put us through
seasons of fire, which refineus.
Purify us, um, make us moremeek, humble.
(08:31):
So us our own, our own frailty.
Our, our, our, our truedependence on him for
everything.
Ivelisse Page (08:38):
Yeah.
I think for those of us who havewalked through cancer, you know,
we know that very well those whoknow Jesus and, and really have
to lean on him with all theunknowns, with the things that
are ahead.
But what would you say tosomeone who is in their battle
right now and for a long timeand is starting to wonder, you
(08:59):
know, is God still with me inthis?
Neil Broere (09:02):
Yeah.
Yeah, it's a great question.
Of course God is with you.
He said he would never leave younor forsake you.
Uh, he's, he's experienced everytrial that you or I could ever
walk through.
That's, that's one of thebeauties of serving a God like
our God.
He doesn't ask us to do anythingthat he himself has not already
(09:24):
experienced and walked through.
So he's with us in the trial.
He's with us in the pain.
Um, I believe in the power ofhealing.
I also believe that God willallow things to happen to us
that we wish we, he would takeaway.
And I'm thinking of Paul, thethorn in the side.
Three times, Lord, please takethis away.
(09:44):
Jesus' response was essentially,no, I'm not gonna do that
because my grace is sufficientand my power is actually
perfected in that weakness.
And I know in the middle of thetrial, whether it be cancer or a
prodigal child or a lost job,these questions of God, where
are you right now, are so realand they're so raw.
(10:06):
And the the best response we cangive to someone who's walking
through those situations is Godis with you.
He is not forsaken you.
I'm thinking about Job's threefriends.
You know, Job is in the middleof a trial that not many of us
will ever walk through and Job'sthree friends come with all
kinds of answers andsuggestions.
(10:28):
What job needed was somebody tojust sit with them.
To just sit with him in themiddle of his struggle.
And I believe that's one of thethings that Jesus does with us.
He joins us in our struggle andhe sits with us.
He comforts us.
Ivelisse Page (10:41):
I love that.
You know, I have friends who areJewish and one of the things
that they do when they are, whensomeone passes away is they sit
with them.
Hmm.
They cover all the mirrors andthey come and they just sit.
Ah.
And I just think that issomething that I've always
(11:02):
taken.
And when you shared that, I justthought of that because so many
times we feel as Christians thatwe have to say the right words,
or the Romans 8 28 lands in auncomfortable, painful place to
many people because when someoneis suffering, saying God will
turn all things for good.
Yeah, we know that, but it's notsomething that, that really
(11:24):
lands well during those reallypainful moments.
And so, you know, you talkedabout the fire and, and you
write that the fire isn't theend of the story.
Uh, for someone who's facingrelentless treatment and
exhaustion, how can they holdonto that truth in the fire?
Neil Broere (11:41):
Yeah, part of it is.
Living for the age to come, notfor this age.
And I know that's, that's a,it's a very challenging thing to
walk out in real time.
It's easy to preach that it,it's, it's another thing to walk
that out with somebody in themidst of their trial, but that
really is the gospel message.
Your life is no longer your own.
(12:02):
You're seated with him inheavenly places.
You're actually living theeternal life right now, and
you're demonstrating what theage to come looks like.
Sometimes that looks likemiraculous healing, pain,
removed the the, it looks likethat heaven breaking into a
situation in a powerful way.
(12:24):
Sometimes it looks likeunrelenting hope in the face of
suffering.
Sometimes it looks like absolutefaith when everyone around you
is saying, man, turn your backon God and go choose something
different.
You know, bringing heaven toearth can look like many
different things, but I believeif, if we can have that
(12:46):
perspective of I'm not livingfor this life, I'm living for
the age to come, it really doesreframe suffering in real time
for us.
Ivelisse Page (12:56):
Yeah.
And you also talk about howscars can become testimonies,
you know, for cancer survivors,uh, I should say thrivers and
fighters.
You know, what does it mean tolive with scars?
That still hurt?
Neil Broere (13:10):
Foundationally, we serve a God who has scars on his
body.
There's a man seated on a thronein heaven right now with scars
on his body and he rose from thedead.
But it's a fascinating to methat resurrection didn't remove
his scars.
Those scars will forever serveas a witness that he loved us so
much that nothing was gonnastand in the way of him getting
(13:33):
ahold of us.
And so scripture is very clearthat, that we are gonna walk in
the same path of Jesus.
So that means we're also gonnabear scars on our lives as well.
Some of us will bear scars onour physical bodies, but we're
all gonna bear scars on oursouls.
So each time we choose toforgive when someone has wounded
(13:54):
us, that's gonna leave a mark onus.
That's gonna leave a scarbecause it, it's hard to forgive
when you've been offended.
Each time we choose to walk theway of humility or love for
someone else, our flesh does notwant to live that way.
And so we are gonna take on thewound of choosing to go low when
everything in us wants to fightfor our own rights.
Ivelisse Page (14:18):
You know, that's so beautiful.
I have many scars, uh, physicalscars from, you know, colon
resections to liver surgeries,to endometrial cancer surgeries.
I mean, all these scars.
And when I used to look at myabdomen, I used to think, oh my
gosh, it's so ugly.
I need to figure out a way tofix this.
(14:39):
And, and really the enemy usedit as a way to make me feel down
and discouraged and I'll neverforget, my sister-in-law shared
exactly what you said, and shesaid, Ivelisse.
She goes, the enemy's trying touse that to discourage you and
making you think that it's ugly,but you need to see it as, what
God allowed you to overcome andyou crushed the enemy when you
(15:02):
overcame a diagnosis thateveryone said you would not.
Yes.
And so when you see those scars,may it serve as a reminder of
the goodness of God and what heallowed you to overcome.
And ever since that day, itbrings my hair's, my arms
raised, because it just remindsme, yes Lord, this is something
that I will never forget.
(15:23):
And I'll always remember howgood you were through me,
through the hardest times of mylife.
Yeah.
So scars can be beautiful.
Neil Broere (15:30):
That's true.
I believe so.
A hundred percent.
I believe scars in the kingdomof God are beautiful because our
savior has scars.
I wanna look like him and if hehas scars, whatever it takes, I
wanna look like him.
Ivelisse Page (15:43):
Yes.
Yes.
What do you think obediencelooks like when your body is too
weak to do much of anything?
Do you think it's possible to beso faithful in the middle of
physical suffering when you justdon't feel like you can do much?
Neil Broere (15:58):
That's a great question.
I think so.
Everything in the kingdom beginsfirst with a heart posture, and
then it becomes walked out.
So the obedience that first hasto happen in our heart.
And if our body is, is in aplace of being incapacitated and
you can't move to the MiddleEast to be a missionary or, you
(16:19):
know, start a feeding programfor the homeless in your city.
Giving him your yes in yourheart first is an act of
worship.
He receives that as worship.
So I, I don't believe it's, wemay have measures of, wow, they
did that for Jesus.
That's amazing.
To Jesus, it's all, what's theposture of your heart?
(16:40):
You, you may have moved aroundthe world and and told Muslims
about Jesus or whatever it mightbe, but your heart might still
be prideful.
You may still want everyone toknow what you did.
Jesus is not gonna receive thatas worship, but you sitting in
your bed worshiping him, meetinghim in prayer, trusting him
(17:00):
through those difficulties,giving him your yes, day after
day after day, that could becomeeven more powerful than the
foreign missionary or thetraveling evangelist in Jesus'
eyes.
Ivelisse Page (17:12):
Hmm.
Yeah, I, I agree.
And I think that no matter wherewe are in our lives, I think
whether we are a mom who'shomeschooling, or whether we are
in the business world, orwhether we're just active in our
community, or even, like yousaid, laying in that bed, um, I
remember those were the sweetesttimes where I just, the only
(17:33):
thing I could do was pray.
And so I feel like when we seeour lives through that kingdom
lens God really allows us to seea greater picture than what we
see right in front of us.
So I love that you share that.
Neil Broere (17:47):
My wife Lindsey, when we lived in Iraq, there's
challenges that women livethrough in a, in a cul culture
like that.
And so Lindsey didn't have thesame freedoms that I did to go
out and minister or to, youknow, share the gospel on the
streets or participate even inprayer meetings.
There were some times where shewas in home, in the house with
(18:08):
the kids for days on end, andsometimes multiple weeks without
doing anything but just going tothe corner store.
And she, the first couple ofyears, she really wrestled with
God.
Lord, I, I'm here to do greatthings for you.
Why am I stuck in this house?
And the Lord showed her, yourgreat things are not the same as
(18:28):
my great things.
Now my definition of greatthings is sometimes you just
worshiping me over that sinkfull of dishes.
Or changing diapers or prayingfor your husband as he goes into
these places.
So what, what he receives asworship is often very different
from what we would considerworship.
Ivelisse Page (18:49):
Hmm.
Yes.
So in your darkest moments, whathelped you to trust God?
'cause I know people are sittingin there thinking, gosh, he has
so much faith and I don't havethat.
And so when, when you had thosedarkest moments, even when you
didn't feel him or understandwhat he was doing, what helped
you to trust in him?
Neil Broere (19:12):
My calling testimonies from the past.
So remembering, forcing myselfto remember the faithfulness of
God in my own life, recallingtestimonies from others' lives.
I love reading biographies ofones who've gone before us, like
the Reese Howells and the HudsonTaylors, and, you know, reading
these stories of, of how God wasfaithful to others.
(19:35):
But then also just standing onfaith.
You know David, he writes in thePsalms, bless the Lord, oh my
soul! He's, it's as if he'sspeaking to himself.
No, I'm commanding my soul rightnow to bless the Lord, even
though everything around medisagrees with my faith, I'm
choosing to stand on faith andsay, God is good.
(19:58):
God is faithful.
Even when I'm faithless.
He's faithful.
I know he's always good and he'snever let me down.
Not once.
I've been in some of the mostdangerous situations.
I've been in the mostuncomfortable situations.
We've ex, our family hasexperienced threats of
foreclosure, poverty.
(20:20):
We've experienced it all.
And I can assure you he hasnever let us down.
And it's not like I've walkedthrough these things as some,
uh, superhero of faith.
There's been times where I'mscratching my head thinking, I
have no idea how he's gonna getus out of this one.
Maybe we finally found theoccasion where God doesn't come
through, and every single timeit comes through.
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Ivelisse Page (21:47):
Mm.
That's awesome.
How can a cancer patient beginto believe that their story,
even the painful parts, canstill be redemptive and used by
God?
Neil Broere (21:58):
Mm, it's a great question.
My father, he had cancer and nowhe's doing great, praise God.
But I remember my father askingthese questions with me and us
wrestling through these thingsand when someone is suffering,
you can either choose to sufferwell or you can choose to suffer
(22:20):
with a harsh heart.
Uh, we, we get to determine theattitude that we're walking
through our situation with,whether that's cancer or poverty
or whatever it might be.
And, how we choose to walkthrough that, that difficult
season determines the testimonythat we're speaking to those
around us about who God is.
(22:42):
So we, we get to be a witness ofwho Jesus is based on how we
navigate our, our difficulty.
And you know, sometimes it is,obviously, it is difficult to
walk through physical sicknessin your body.
But I think if we can rememberthat the world is watching, not
only to see how we, how we walkthrough those high moments, but
(23:04):
also through those low moments,and that it can be just as much
of a, a powerful witness to theworld of who Jesus is, how we
walk through our seasons ofsuffering.
Ivelisse Page (23:15):
What's the verse?
Um, it's fleeting to me rightnow, but it just says whether I
live or die, you know?
Yeah.
It's like a, i I win, you know?
I win.
Yeah.
What's that?
Neil Broere (23:25):
Yeah, it's Philippians.
Paul says, God will be glorifiedin my body by life or by death.
Yes.
Yeah.
Ivelisse Page (23:31):
And so I, I feel like, um.
You know, when we have a kingdomperspective, we're living our
lives today knowing, okay, Lord,what is my purpose for today?
And it just may be to talk tosomeone who, uh, needs
encouragement.
If you are walking throughcancer and, you know, just think
(23:51):
about those who have gone beforeyou said, you know, remember the
past and remember those who'vecome before you.
I know when I was going throughcancer, I found those
individuals who were on theother side, and it just gave me
such hope to know that if Godcould heal them, then he could
heal me too.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
So he can be that for thosepeople, um, who are feeling
(24:12):
hopeless no matter what they're,they're dealing with in their
lives.
And you've seen suffering upclose on the mission field, you
know, how has that experiencehelped you to speak hope to
those who are suffering?
Neil Broere (24:25):
Yeah.
One of the things that we saw,when we lived in Iraq, we were
there from the beginning of 2016to the end of 2021.
It was during the height ofISIS.
We lived about an hour away fromwhere ISIS was in Mosul.
And a lot of the work that wedid in those first few years was
in refugee camps and the thingsthat these people had lived
(24:47):
through the, the atrocities,just the, the, the wickedness
that they had experienced fromthe hands of ISIS.
It was awful.
And I remember, I rememberfeeling so insufficient to
comfort them in those moments.
Because I'm from America.
We, I grew up in comfort.
(25:08):
I and the moment's notice, I canget on an airplane and I can go
back to America.
These people are stuck in asituation and there's no way
out.
And I remember thinking, Lord,how do I comfort somebody who's
in the midst of such trial rightnow?
And that's when he spoke to meabout Job.
Don't give them answers.
(25:29):
Don't try to, don't try to givethem, uh, fancy words.
Sometimes don't even worry aboutpointing'em to the right Bible
verse.
Just sit with them.
Let them know that they're notalone, and your presence there,
letting them know they're notalone is a witness that I'm with
them and they're not alonebecause I'm here too.
Ivelisse Page (25:46):
Mm.
Yeah.
Empathy is such a powerful toolin God's kingdom I believe in
understanding, listening,curiosity, affirming, and I
think that that is such animportant role that we could all
do.
You know, I, I always, uh, usedto tell my kids when they're
little, God gave us two ears andone mouth for a reason, so we
(26:07):
should listen more than wespeak.
It's true.
So I feel like that that is, um,just such a powerful testimony.
So in the last few minutes, um,what else could you share about
your book that you feel would bemeaningful for those who are
listening today?
Neil Broere (26:24):
Well, one of the reasons that I wanted to put
this book together was I wantedto reframe the narrative on
suffering.
And reassure people who arewalking through difficult
situations that they haven'tmissed God.
God hasn't missed them.
This is actually what we signedup for when we said yes to
Jesus.
(26:44):
You know, I'm thinking of whatPeter says in 1 Peter 4.
Don't be surprised at the fieryordeal that has come upon you to
the degree that you fellowshipwith him in his sufferings,
actually, rejoice.
James says right at thebeginning of his letter, the
second verse, James says, countit all joy brothers, when you
(27:04):
fall into various trials,knowing that those trials
actually produce something inyou, the language that he uses
here is fascinating, thatperfects you and makes you
complete.
So that tells me that there'ssomething about the difficulty
and the suffering that has thepower to make us complete.
(27:24):
So if I never experiencedsuffering, that tells me I'm
incomplete.
Jesus was very clear when hegave us the invitation to follow
him.
If you wanna come after me,there's actually a cross with
your name on it.
I want you to pick that up andwalk with me.
This wasn't in fine print.
This is actually in bold letterson top of the contract.
(27:44):
My purpose in writing the bookwas to, to shed light on
something that can be a big,scary monster and say, look,
this is, this is a part offollowing Jesus, and if it's a
part of his plan for us, thenit's for our good.
Everything he does is love, andeverything he does is for our
good and for his glory.
Ivelisse Page (28:03):
Well, Neil, thank you so much for writing this
book.
Again, the book is Obedience,Suffering Reward.
We will put a link in our shownotes for you all to go and
purchase this book.
You will be inspired andencouraged to live a life that
honors the Lord and even throughthe hard times to understand the
purpose in it while walkingthrough something difficult.
(28:25):
So thank you for writing it.
Thank you for taking the time tojoin us today for this
conversation.
Neil Broere (28:31):
Oh, you're welcome, Ivelisse.
It was my honor.
Thank you so much for theinvitation.
Ivelisse Page (28:42):
If you enjoyed this episode and you'd like to
help support our podcast, pleasesubscribe and share it with
others.
Be sure to visit believebig.orgto access the show notes and
discover our bonus content.
Thanks again and keep BelievingBig!
Hi, I am Ivelisse Page and thanks for listening to
the Believe Big podcast, theshow where we take deep dive
into your healing with healthexperts, integrative
practitioners, biblical faithleaders, and cancer thrivers
from around the globe.
(00:34):
Welcome to today's episode onthe Believe Big Podcast.
My name is Ivelisse Page andit's always a pleasure to be
able to spend this time withyou.
On today's episode of theBelieve Big podcast, we welcome
Neil Broere, author, pastor,filmmaker, and global ministry
leader.
Neil is the teaching pastor atRadiant Church on California's
(00:57):
Central Coast and serves as theglobal director of Becoming Love
Ministries, where he helpspioneer gospel initiatives
around the world.
Before relocating to Californiain 2022, Neil and his wife
Lindsey, along with their fourchildren, spent six deeply
formative years as missionariesin Iraq, an experience that
(01:20):
transformed their faith andtaught them to trust God in ways
they never imagined.
Neil joins us today to talkabout his powerful new book,
Obedience, Suffering Reward, amust read for anyone who's ever
asked, God, why is this so hard?
In the book, Neil doesn't shyaway from the harsh realities of
(01:43):
following Jesus.
Instead, he dives into thetension between obedience and
suffering, revealing how Godoften leads us straight into the
fire, not to destroy us, but torefine us.
Through raw reflections from hisown life and rich stories from
scripture, Neil reminds us thatsuffering is not the end of the
(02:04):
story.
It's often the soil in which Godgrows the most beautiful
rewards.
Whether you're in a season ofhardship or standing at a
crossroads of faith, thisconversation will encourage you
to trust in God's redemptiveplan.
Neil's insights will challengeand inspire you to keep
following Jesus even when thepath leads through pain.
(02:27):
Because as his book sopowerfully declares, the way of
the cross is always the way toglory.
Welcome to the podcast, Neil!
Neil Broere (02:35):
Ivelisse, thank you for having me.
It's an absolute honor.
Ivelisse Page (02:40):
Well, it is a tradition here on our podcast to
start with our guest favoritehealth tip.
And I know you mentioned thatLindsey's the the big health
advocate, but I know you haveone, so could you share one with
us?
Neil Broere (02:53):
So, my favorite health tip would actually be
fasting.
Making fasting a typical, normalpart of your rhythm.
Of course we know the spiritualbenefits of fasting, but the
health benefits too often getignored from folks who pursue
fasting for the spiritualbenefits.
Yes, and I would, I would,personally, I don't fast for the
(03:15):
health benefits, but what I'vefound is when I fast, obviously
you're controlling your weight,you're increasing your
metabolism.
But two of the main benefitsthat I love health wise are
decreasing inflammation, andincreased cognitive, um,
processing.
Like I find that I have so muchmore mental clarity and
(03:38):
sharpness when I'm fasting.
Ivelisse Page (03:41):
That is a great tip.
And how long do you typicallyfast for?
Neil Broere (03:46):
I begin every year with a 40 day fast.
And then throughout the yearI'll do other smaller fasts.
Maybe I'll throw in another 40day fast, um, in the year as
well.
Ivelisse Page (03:57):
Wow.
That is amazing.
I don't think I've ever done a40 day food fast.
It is, uh, I, I can't evenimagine, but I know that a lot
of people do.
Is it a water fast or is it theDaniel Fast?
Or how, how do you do that?
Neil Broere (04:12):
Typically on the, the longer fast, the 40 day
fast, or even a 21 day fast,I'll do the first 10 to 14 days
of water and then I'lltransition to liquids.
Um, unless there's just thisrare month and a half that I can
vanish and not have anyresponsibilities.
But when you're pastoring achurch, when you're fathering
(04:32):
four children, that's usuallypretty rare, so I find that I
need to maintain some sort ofstrength in my body just to
fulfill my responsibilities andtransitioning to liquid during
that second half of the fastreally helps me do that.
Ivelisse Page (04:46):
Yeah.
That's amazing.
Yeah, I know when I've done theshort, fast, spiritually, you
know, anytime you get hungry itreminds you to pray and to keep
seeking him.
So it's such a constant reminderand I can say for me as well
that that is when I hear himmost clearly.
So I love that you do that tostart the year.
Maybe that's something I trythis coming January as we start
(05:10):
the new year, but today we're,we're talking about your book
and you talk about obeying Godwhen it doesn't make sense.
And what does that look like inyour own life?
Neil Broere (05:20):
It would be so much easier if God spoke our language
and he gave us, this is why Iwant you to do what I'm asking
you to do and this is what'sgonna happen.
But that's not the language thatGod speaks.
His language is the language offaith.
So often what he does is he willask us to do something that our
(05:40):
carnal mind doesn't make muchsense.
You know, it's like when heasked Abram to leave his family,
leave the city that he, he grewup in, leave everything and go
to the place that I'll show you.
He didn't tell him, this isexactly where I want you to go.
This is the directions you'regonna go.
It was a move by faith.
And what I've found in my lifeis the Lord is not often going
(06:04):
to explain everything on thefront end.
It's a step of faith, and as wego, he unpacks some of the
details, but often it's not evenuntil we get there or afterwards
that we realize, oh, this iswhat that was all about.
I'm thinking of Peter.
When Peter walked on water,there was a, that's a great
example of a step of faith, andI heard it put this way.
(06:27):
Peter wasn't walking on water,he was walking on the word of
the Lord.
The Lord said, come and, and,and Peter was standing on that
word by faith.
And it's the same when the Lordasks us to do something to obey
him.
It often doesn't come withclear, clear reasons or
instructions, but we step out byfaith.
Ivelisse Page (06:46):
I've heard that story so many times that I've
never heard it explained asstanding on his word, which is
even more powerful about thatstory.
What, what do you think is thedanger of comfort based
Christianity, you know, how isit distorting the gospel in your
opinion?
Neil Broere (07:04):
Yeah, I refer to it as the gospel of the American
Dream, which is come to Jesusand receive the best life you
could ever imagine.
And we get, we get, uh, ourdestination confused with our
assignment.
There, there is a promise foranyone who comes to Jesus.
Every tear will be wiped away.
(07:24):
That, that, that everythingimaginable that he created will
be received by us ininheritance.
But we can't confuse ourdestination with our assignment.
And I believe that gospel of theAmerican dream, it removes the
cross from the gospel, or atbest it, it applies the cross to
(07:45):
Jesus and what he did.
But it removes the cross for youand I to bear in our own lives.
And so when we walk throughtrials and difficulties, which
Jesus says will come all whochoose to follow him will
suffer.
Jesus wasn't playing around whenhe said, pick up your cross and
follow me.
When those things happen, it canbecome disorienting.
(08:07):
It can become confusing.
You think either you messed upor you know the enemy is
attacking you or whatever itmight be.
When all the while Jesus isusing some of our most difficult
situations to make us more likehim, just to put us through
seasons of fire, which refineus.
Purify us, um, make us moremeek, humble.
(08:31):
So us our own, our own frailty.
Our, our, our, our truedependence on him for
everything.
Ivelisse Page (08:38):
Yeah.
I think for those of us who havewalked through cancer, you know,
we know that very well those whoknow Jesus and, and really have
to lean on him with all theunknowns, with the things that
are ahead.
But what would you say tosomeone who is in their battle
right now and for a long timeand is starting to wonder, you
(08:59):
know, is God still with me inthis?
Neil Broere (09:02):
Yeah.
Yeah, it's a great question.
Of course God is with you.
He said he would never leave younor forsake you.
Uh, he's, he's experienced everytrial that you or I could ever
walk through.
That's, that's one of thebeauties of serving a God like
our God.
He doesn't ask us to do anythingthat he himself has not already
(09:24):
experienced and walked through.
So he's with us in the trial.
He's with us in the pain.
Um, I believe in the power ofhealing.
I also believe that God willallow things to happen to us
that we wish we, he would takeaway.
And I'm thinking of Paul, thethorn in the side.
Three times, Lord, please takethis away.
(09:44):
Jesus' response was essentially,no, I'm not gonna do that
because my grace is sufficientand my power is actually
perfected in that weakness.
And I know in the middle of thetrial, whether it be cancer or a
prodigal child or a lost job,these questions of God, where
are you right now, are so realand they're so raw.
(10:06):
And the the best response we cangive to someone who's walking
through those situations is Godis with you.
He is not forsaken you.
I'm thinking about Job's threefriends.
You know, Job is in the middleof a trial that not many of us
will ever walk through and Job'sthree friends come with all
kinds of answers andsuggestions.
(10:28):
What job needed was somebody tojust sit with them.
To just sit with him in themiddle of his struggle.
And I believe that's one of thethings that Jesus does with us.
He joins us in our struggle andhe sits with us.
He comforts us.
Ivelisse Page (10:41):
I love that.
You know, I have friends who areJewish and one of the things
that they do when they are, whensomeone passes away is they sit
with them.
Hmm.
They cover all the mirrors andthey come and they just sit.
Ah.
And I just think that issomething that I've always
(11:02):
taken.
And when you shared that, I justthought of that because so many
times we feel as Christians thatwe have to say the right words,
or the Romans 8 28 lands in auncomfortable, painful place to
many people because when someoneis suffering, saying God will
turn all things for good.
Yeah, we know that, but it's notsomething that, that really
(11:24):
lands well during those reallypainful moments.
And so, you know, you talkedabout the fire and, and you
write that the fire isn't theend of the story.
Uh, for someone who's facingrelentless treatment and
exhaustion, how can they holdonto that truth in the fire?
Neil Broere (11:41):
Yeah, part of it is.
Living for the age to come, notfor this age.
And I know that's, that's a,it's a very challenging thing to
walk out in real time.
It's easy to preach that it,it's, it's another thing to walk
that out with somebody in themidst of their trial, but that
really is the gospel message.
Your life is no longer your own.
(12:02):
You're seated with him inheavenly places.
You're actually living theeternal life right now, and
you're demonstrating what theage to come looks like.
Sometimes that looks likemiraculous healing, pain,
removed the the, it looks likethat heaven breaking into a
situation in a powerful way.
(12:24):
Sometimes it looks likeunrelenting hope in the face of
suffering.
Sometimes it looks like absolutefaith when everyone around you
is saying, man, turn your backon God and go choose something
different.
You know, bringing heaven toearth can look like many
different things, but I believeif, if we can have that
(12:46):
perspective of I'm not livingfor this life, I'm living for
the age to come, it really doesreframe suffering in real time
for us.
Ivelisse Page (12:56):
Yeah.
And you also talk about howscars can become testimonies,
you know, for cancer survivors,uh, I should say thrivers and
fighters.
You know, what does it mean tolive with scars?
That still hurt?
Neil Broere (13:10):
Foundationally, we serve a God who has scars on his
body.
There's a man seated on a thronein heaven right now with scars
on his body and he rose from thedead.
But it's a fascinating to methat resurrection didn't remove
his scars.
Those scars will forever serveas a witness that he loved us so
much that nothing was gonnastand in the way of him getting
(13:33):
ahold of us.
And so scripture is very clearthat, that we are gonna walk in
the same path of Jesus.
So that means we're also gonnabear scars on our lives as well.
Some of us will bear scars onour physical bodies, but we're
all gonna bear scars on oursouls.
So each time we choose toforgive when someone has wounded
(13:54):
us, that's gonna leave a mark onus.
That's gonna leave a scarbecause it, it's hard to forgive
when you've been offended.
Each time we choose to walk theway of humility or love for
someone else, our flesh does notwant to live that way.
And so we are gonna take on thewound of choosing to go low when
everything in us wants to fightfor our own rights.
Ivelisse Page (14:18):
You know, that's so beautiful.
I have many scars, uh, physicalscars from, you know, colon
resections to liver surgeries,to endometrial cancer surgeries.
I mean, all these scars.
And when I used to look at myabdomen, I used to think, oh my
gosh, it's so ugly.
I need to figure out a way tofix this.
(14:39):
And, and really the enemy usedit as a way to make me feel down
and discouraged and I'll neverforget, my sister-in-law shared
exactly what you said, and shesaid, Ivelisse.
She goes, the enemy's trying touse that to discourage you and
making you think that it's ugly,but you need to see it as, what
God allowed you to overcome andyou crushed the enemy when you
(15:02):
overcame a diagnosis thateveryone said you would not.
Yes.
And so when you see those scars,may it serve as a reminder of
the goodness of God and what heallowed you to overcome.
And ever since that day, itbrings my hair's, my arms
raised, because it just remindsme, yes Lord, this is something
that I will never forget.
(15:23):
And I'll always remember howgood you were through me,
through the hardest times of mylife.
Yeah.
So scars can be beautiful.
Neil Broere (15:30):
That's true.
I believe so.
A hundred percent.
I believe scars in the kingdomof God are beautiful because our
savior has scars.
I wanna look like him and if hehas scars, whatever it takes, I
wanna look like him.
Ivelisse Page (15:43):
Yes.
Yes.
What do you think obediencelooks like when your body is too
weak to do much of anything?
Do you think it's possible to beso faithful in the middle of
physical suffering when you justdon't feel like you can do much?
Neil Broere (15:58):
That's a great question.
I think so.
Everything in the kingdom beginsfirst with a heart posture, and
then it becomes walked out.
So the obedience that first hasto happen in our heart.
And if our body is, is in aplace of being incapacitated and
you can't move to the MiddleEast to be a missionary or, you
(16:19):
know, start a feeding programfor the homeless in your city.
Giving him your yes in yourheart first is an act of
worship.
He receives that as worship.
So I, I don't believe it's, wemay have measures of, wow, they
did that for Jesus.
That's amazing.
To Jesus, it's all, what's theposture of your heart?
(16:40):
You, you may have moved aroundthe world and and told Muslims
about Jesus or whatever it mightbe, but your heart might still
be prideful.
You may still want everyone toknow what you did.
Jesus is not gonna receive thatas worship, but you sitting in
your bed worshiping him, meetinghim in prayer, trusting him
(17:00):
through those difficulties,giving him your yes, day after
day after day, that could becomeeven more powerful than the
foreign missionary or thetraveling evangelist in Jesus'
eyes.
Ivelisse Page (17:12):
Hmm.
Yeah, I, I agree.
And I think that no matter wherewe are in our lives, I think
whether we are a mom who'shomeschooling, or whether we are
in the business world, orwhether we're just active in our
community, or even, like yousaid, laying in that bed, um, I
remember those were the sweetesttimes where I just, the only
(17:33):
thing I could do was pray.
And so I feel like when we seeour lives through that kingdom
lens God really allows us to seea greater picture than what we
see right in front of us.
So I love that you share that.
Neil Broere (17:47):
My wife Lindsey, when we lived in Iraq, there's
challenges that women livethrough in a, in a cul culture
like that.
And so Lindsey didn't have thesame freedoms that I did to go
out and minister or to, youknow, share the gospel on the
streets or participate even inprayer meetings.
There were some times where shewas in home, in the house with
(18:08):
the kids for days on end, andsometimes multiple weeks without
doing anything but just going tothe corner store.
And she, the first couple ofyears, she really wrestled with
God.
Lord, I, I'm here to do greatthings for you.
Why am I stuck in this house?
And the Lord showed her, yourgreat things are not the same as
(18:28):
my great things.
Now my definition of greatthings is sometimes you just
worshiping me over that sinkfull of dishes.
Or changing diapers or prayingfor your husband as he goes into
these places.
So what, what he receives asworship is often very different
from what we would considerworship.
Ivelisse Page (18:49):
Hmm.
Yes.
So in your darkest moments, whathelped you to trust God?
'cause I know people are sittingin there thinking, gosh, he has
so much faith and I don't havethat.
And so when, when you had thosedarkest moments, even when you
didn't feel him or understandwhat he was doing, what helped
you to trust in him?
Neil Broere (19:12):
My calling testimonies from the past.
So remembering, forcing myselfto remember the faithfulness of
God in my own life, recallingtestimonies from others' lives.
I love reading biographies ofones who've gone before us, like
the Reese Howells and the HudsonTaylors, and, you know, reading
these stories of, of how God wasfaithful to others.
(19:35):
But then also just standing onfaith.
You know David, he writes in thePsalms, bless the Lord, oh my
soul! He's, it's as if he'sspeaking to himself.
No, I'm commanding my soul rightnow to bless the Lord, even
though everything around medisagrees with my faith, I'm
choosing to stand on faith andsay, God is good.
(19:58):
God is faithful.
Even when I'm faithless.
He's faithful.
I know he's always good and he'snever let me down.
Not once.
I've been in some of the mostdangerous situations.
I've been in the mostuncomfortable situations.
We've ex, our family hasexperienced threats of
foreclosure, poverty.
(20:20):
We've experienced it all.
And I can assure you he hasnever let us down.
And it's not like I've walkedthrough these things as some,
uh, superhero of faith.
There's been times where I'mscratching my head thinking, I
have no idea how he's gonna getus out of this one.
Maybe we finally found theoccasion where God doesn't come
through, and every single timeit comes through.
Believe Big (20:44):
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Ivelisse Page (21:47):
Mm.
That's awesome.
How can a cancer patient beginto believe that their story,
even the painful parts, canstill be redemptive and used by
God?
Neil Broere (21:58):
Mm, it's a great question.
My father, he had cancer and nowhe's doing great, praise God.
But I remember my father askingthese questions with me and us
wrestling through these thingsand when someone is suffering,
you can either choose to sufferwell or you can choose to suffer
(22:20):
with a harsh heart.
Uh, we, we get to determine theattitude that we're walking
through our situation with,whether that's cancer or poverty
or whatever it might be.
And, how we choose to walkthrough that, that difficult
season determines the testimonythat we're speaking to those
around us about who God is.
(22:42):
So we, we get to be a witness ofwho Jesus is based on how we
navigate our, our difficulty.
And you know, sometimes it is,obviously, it is difficult to
walk through physical sicknessin your body.
But I think if we can rememberthat the world is watching, not
only to see how we, how we walkthrough those high moments, but
(23:04):
also through those low moments,and that it can be just as much
of a, a powerful witness to theworld of who Jesus is, how we
walk through our seasons ofsuffering.
Ivelisse Page (23:15):
What's the verse?
Um, it's fleeting to me rightnow, but it just says whether I
live or die, you know?
Yeah.
It's like a, i I win, you know?
I win.
Yeah.
What's that?
Neil Broere (23:25):
Yeah, it's Philippians.
Paul says, God will be glorifiedin my body by life or by death.
Yes.
Yeah.
Ivelisse Page (23:31):
And so I, I feel like, um.
You know, when we have a kingdomperspective, we're living our
lives today knowing, okay, Lord,what is my purpose for today?
And it just may be to talk tosomeone who, uh, needs
encouragement.
If you are walking throughcancer and, you know, just think
(23:51):
about those who have gone beforeyou said, you know, remember the
past and remember those who'vecome before you.
I know when I was going throughcancer, I found those
individuals who were on theother side, and it just gave me
such hope to know that if Godcould heal them, then he could
heal me too.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
So he can be that for thosepeople, um, who are feeling
(24:12):
hopeless no matter what they're,they're dealing with in their
lives.
And you've seen suffering upclose on the mission field, you
know, how has that experiencehelped you to speak hope to
those who are suffering?
Neil Broere (24:25):
Yeah.
One of the things that we saw,when we lived in Iraq, we were
there from the beginning of 2016to the end of 2021.
It was during the height ofISIS.
We lived about an hour away fromwhere ISIS was in Mosul.
And a lot of the work that wedid in those first few years was
in refugee camps and the thingsthat these people had lived
(24:47):
through the, the atrocities,just the, the, the wickedness
that they had experienced fromthe hands of ISIS.
It was awful.
And I remember, I rememberfeeling so insufficient to
comfort them in those moments.
Because I'm from America.
We, I grew up in comfort.
(25:08):
I and the moment's notice, I canget on an airplane and I can go
back to America.
These people are stuck in asituation and there's no way
out.
And I remember thinking, Lord,how do I comfort somebody who's
in the midst of such trial rightnow?
And that's when he spoke to meabout Job.
Don't give them answers.
(25:29):
Don't try to, don't try to givethem, uh, fancy words.
Sometimes don't even worry aboutpointing'em to the right Bible
verse.
Just sit with them.
Let them know that they're notalone, and your presence there,
letting them know they're notalone is a witness that I'm with
them and they're not alonebecause I'm here too.
Ivelisse Page (25:46):
Mm.
Yeah.
Empathy is such a powerful toolin God's kingdom I believe in
understanding, listening,curiosity, affirming, and I
think that that is such animportant role that we could all
do.
You know, I, I always, uh, usedto tell my kids when they're
little, God gave us two ears andone mouth for a reason, so we
(26:07):
should listen more than wespeak.
It's true.
So I feel like that that is, um,just such a powerful testimony.
So in the last few minutes, um,what else could you share about
your book that you feel would bemeaningful for those who are
listening today?
Neil Broere (26:24):
Well, one of the reasons that I wanted to put
this book together was I wantedto reframe the narrative on
suffering.
And reassure people who arewalking through difficult
situations that they haven'tmissed God.
God hasn't missed them.
This is actually what we signedup for when we said yes to
Jesus.
(26:44):
You know, I'm thinking of whatPeter says in 1 Peter 4.
Don't be surprised at the fieryordeal that has come upon you to
the degree that you fellowshipwith him in his sufferings,
actually, rejoice.
James says right at thebeginning of his letter, the
second verse, James says, countit all joy brothers, when you
(27:04):
fall into various trials,knowing that those trials
actually produce something inyou, the language that he uses
here is fascinating, thatperfects you and makes you
complete.
So that tells me that there'ssomething about the difficulty
and the suffering that has thepower to make us complete.
(27:24):
So if I never experiencedsuffering, that tells me I'm
incomplete.
Jesus was very clear when hegave us the invitation to follow
him.
If you wanna come after me,there's actually a cross with
your name on it.
I want you to pick that up andwalk with me.
This wasn't in fine print.
This is actually in bold letterson top of the contract.
(27:44):
My purpose in writing the bookwas to, to shed light on
something that can be a big,scary monster and say, look,
this is, this is a part offollowing Jesus, and if it's a
part of his plan for us, thenit's for our good.
Everything he does is love, andeverything he does is for our
good and for his glory.
Ivelisse Page (28:03):
Well, Neil, thank you so much for writing this
book.
Again, the book is Obedience,Suffering Reward.
We will put a link in our shownotes for you all to go and
purchase this book.
You will be inspired andencouraged to live a life that
honors the Lord and even throughthe hard times to understand the
purpose in it while walkingthrough something difficult.
(28:25):
So thank you for writing it.
Thank you for taking the time tojoin us today for this
conversation.
Neil Broere (28:31):
Oh, you're welcome, Ivelisse.
It was my honor.
Thank you so much for theinvitation.
Ivelisse Page (28:42):
If you enjoyed this episode and you'd like to
help support our podcast, pleasesubscribe and share it with
others.
Be sure to visit believebig.orgto access the show notes and
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Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
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As Director of The Men’s Clinic at UCLA, Dr. Jesse Mills has spent his career helping men understand their bodies, their hormones, and their health. Now he’s bringing that expertise to The Male Room — a podcast where data-driven medicine meets common sense. Each episode separates fact from hype, science from snake oil, and gives men the tools to live longer, stronger, and happier lives. With candor, humor, and real-world experience from the exam room and the operating room, Dr. Mills breaks down the latest health headlines, dissects trends, and explains what actually works — and what doesn’t. Smart, straightforward, and entertaining, The Male Room is the show that helps men take charge of their health without the jargon.