Pen Pals With A Killer Clown

What happens when a young college freshman tries to infiltrate the minds of notorious serial killers? The answer might surprise you.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
I'm Jen Lee and I'm Jenna Sullivan.
And we'd like to welcome you tobeneath your bed a podcast where
we drag out all those fears atwork, beneath our beds from the
paranormal to true crime, to thesimply strange along the way,
we'll be drinking cocktails andsharing stories from our
Appalachian upbringings.
What happens when a youngcollege freshmen tries to
infiltrate the minds ofnotorious serial killers?

(00:22):
The answer might surprise you,

Speaker 2 (00:30):
Jen, how are you?
I'm good.
How are you, Jen?

Speaker 1 (00:32):
Great.
What have you been up to?
I'm ashamed to say what I'vebeen up to.
It's homey shopping.
So I've been shopping for let'ssee, I bought like a hole in my
head.
It's an emergency Bigfoot color.
Yeah.
So that like, if you're beinghunted by Bigfoot, you can call
for help.
I think it's, if you want toattract input, you'd have to let

(00:55):
go of this fantasy.
It's this a child's toy.
And it, it either Hells it'ssnorts or it can also like
grunt.
Wow.
I'm very anxious to get this inthe mail.
I truly am.
And I also found out from mybrother, he's been watching a
lot of big foot YouTube videosthat the region that our
family's from or not even theregion it's like right in the

(01:18):
immediate area, they have likethis sanctuary sanctuary.
Yes.
And it's in Norton, Virginia,which is news to me, except they
call Bigfoot the wood booger.
I've never heard that the woodbugger.
Yeah.
It's called the wood Bookersanctuary.

(01:40):
I think we need to do a show onthat.
Well, they have a festival inOctober.
I'm going next year.
I'm totally down for that.
My brother wants to go reallybadly too.
So it was actually on animalplanet finding big foot TV show.
That's crazy.
Oh my gosh.
That's so cool.
So there's a, there's actually,there's a geocashing trail or an
event.

(02:00):
It's the Woodbrook or geo trail.
Oh my gosh.
I'm really excited about this.
I had no idea.
That's really cool.
That maybe explains a lot about,about your genealogy, why you're
so attracted to it.
So what are you having to drinktonight?
I'm having nothing super fancy,but you know, recently I made

(02:20):
that horrible drink and I waslike, I can not have a repeat of
an undrinkable.
I made a meal, but I did like anApple cider mule.
It's really good.
So it's got the, um, you know, Iput rum in it.
So I guess it's not really amule.
It's what do you call those darkand stormy, but it's not gone
either.
So it's just it's um, God, whatkind of rum is it?

(02:41):
I can't remember the other likebig name from whatever that is.
Is it my Meyer?
Yeah.
So it's dark rum.
And then I put in, um, I haven'tmade any ginger syrup because I
thought I can't do that.
I can't do that without you.
So I bought some of the storeand it's actually really good
though.
It has the sediment in thebottom, you know?
So when you shake off, like it'slike good stuff.
And then I have lime juice and

Speaker 3 (03:02):
Half Apple cider and half ginger beer.
And then

Speaker 1 (03:05):
I just started up and put in some ice.
It's really tasty.
That's so weird that you did adark and stormy cause I'm having
a dark and stormy.
No way.
Yes, that's crazy.
And I didn't use the goslingsrom either with a dark and
stormy in case people don'tknow.
I think it's one of the onlydrinks that if you're at a bar
and you're serving it, if you'reserving a dark and stormy, you
have to use goslings, rum, youhave to use it.

(03:27):
You can't use any other type ofrum because there's some type of
proprietary thing with thedrink.

Speaker 3 (03:32):
900 knew that until you told me, it makes me wonder
like how, how old that recipeis.

Speaker 1 (03:36):
You know, how long that's been, how they managed to
pull that off.
I don't know.
So technically it's not a darkand stormy cause I'm not using
goslings, but I'm using, um, Iactually have one I've been
making dark and Stormy's, I'vebeen using captain Morgan spice,
rum.
That sounds delicious.
The ginger beer is lysineitself.
I have the gasoline, gingerbeer.
I think you gave that to me.

(03:57):
So I'm using that tonight.
So it has rum, it calls for anounce and a half of rom and then
a half an ounce of lime.
And that's it.
And the ginger beer.
Did you cook?
Oh my gosh.
No, I forgot.
I don't have any more.
The ginger syrup.
I need to buy some ginger rootto make that, but it's super
yummy.
Yeah.
So we make our own ginger simplesyrup.
So we'll make like huge batchesand we always get drunk or doing

(04:22):
it too.
Yes, we do.
It makes it extra special overthe summer.
I bought some Appalachian gingerbeer.
Seriously.
It was horrendous.
Oh no, it tasted like a dirtyshoe.
I was so like excited andoptimistic about it.
My hopes were soon dashed.
As soon as I tried it, it wasterrible bad plus it's from

(04:42):
Appalachia.
So it was like, I wanted it tobe good, but it is not, I do not
recommend it at all.
So what are we talking abouttonight?
My story is a story of JasonMoss.
And other than me telling youthat was going to be the subject
of my story tonight.
Do you know anything?
No, I have not yet.

Speaker 3 (05:01):
She has to look up in fact I didn't want to cause I
wanted to be surprised, but thatname means nothing to me.

Speaker 1 (05:06):
I remember the story because I watched his interviews
years ago and then I actuallywatched a movie in 2010 about
it.
So I thought, well, I can go offmost of this, you know, from my
memory.
And I thought, well, at the sametime, I still need to go back
and research it.
And then of course researchingit.
It's always those stories thatyou think that aren't going to

(05:27):
be that in-depth, or that muchdetail that turn out to be just
rife with all sorts of detailsand nuances and that sort of
thing.
I actually, while I wasresearching and decided, Oh,
okay, well I'll go ahead and getthis book by this Jason Moss.
And that took me further downthe rabbit hole.
So let me take a drink and Iwill try to begin from the

(05:50):
start.
I am sitting here in raptanticipation in 1993, there was
this 18 year old honor studentnamed Jason Moss.
And he went to the university ofNevada, Las Vegas.
And he was a risk taker in a lotof ways.
And he was, you know, in someways he was addicted to

(06:10):
adrenaline.
And he also reported that whenhe went to college, he was
disappointed and he wasdisappointed because he felt
like it was just an extension ofhigh school.
So he didn't see it as any morechallenging than high school.
And he was a really, reallysmart kid.
He was a young man, but he's 18.
So I'm still going to call him akid.
And he was very, very smart.

(06:31):
And he had a little bit of anunusual voice, I think a little
bit of an unusual upbringing.
So Jason's mom, she was reallyinto true crime.
She wouldn't let him read it,but she would, you know, when he
was older, I don't think he waslike, you know, really young.
But she, when they went to thepublic library, evidently they
went there a lot.
She would say, Hey Jason, canyou believe this?

(06:51):
The serial killer may a beltmade out of nipples.
And he remembers that distinctlybecause he remembered being
embarrassed by that in thepublic library, Cod's poor kid.
So he was also into kickboxing.
He was like a weightlifter.
He was really into kickboxing.
He was very fit.
And I believe while he waswaiting either to go to
kickboxing or maybe afterward,he went into this bookstore that

(07:13):
was next door.
And he started perusing the truecrime.
And he came across hers.
This one book that caught hisinterest.
And of course, mind you he's 18.
So now he can read pretty muchwhat he wants.
And when he's looking throughthe true crime section, he sees
this book called the killerclown, which was about the
serial killer, John Wayne Gacy.

(07:34):
And Jason had always been afraidof clowns when he was a child.
And he actually had thisreoccurring nightmare involving
a clown and his grandmotherbeing killed.
So it caught his interest in, hebuys the book and he hatches
this plan for his honors thesisthat he would become pen pals
with serial killers.

(07:55):
Now, what was he studying incollege?
I mean, what was his major?
I believe it was, it was either,I think it was either criminal
justice or it was psychology.
Okay.
So he wanted to actually go intolike law enforcement, like FBI
and, um, FBI and secret service.
And I think he did internshipsat least for the secret service.

(08:17):
So that's how he was going to,you know, that's where his, that
was his career goal.
So for his thesis, his honorthesis, he decides that, that
there hasn't been enoughresearch to, this is a quote
from him and this is in his bookand it was also co-written or co
the coauthor was Jeffrey Kotler,who was one of his psychology
professors.

(08:37):
And the name of the book,Jeffrey Kotler.
I've heard the name I thought Ihad too, but there's probably a
lot of collars, but anyway, hedecided, you know, he and his
book with Jeffrey Kotler, thelast victim, a true life journey
into the mind of a serialkiller.
Jason stated that the more thathe read about serial killers,
the more convinced that hebecame that the so-called

(08:59):
experts and the police andforensic psychologists that they
weren't exploring, like all theavenues of inquiry.
And he said that he wonderedwhat kind of an effort had been
made to debrief the victims.
Those who had lived to tell thetale.
So at this point you couldprobably surmise, or you might
be thinking to yourself thathe's pretty cocky in a, in a

(09:21):
sense that he's like, well, thatall these so-called experts,
they haven't looked at this andyou know, he was going to set
out and he was going to do it.
It takes that cockiness though,to get something done.
Yeah.
And maybe cocky is not, let'ssay self-assured, you know, I
don't want to be negative here.
This just say self-assured sohe's young, he's smart.
He's, self-assured, he'scurious.
And he's a risk taker.
And he began to researchextensively about all the

(09:45):
killers that he became pen palswith.
So that included John WayneGacy, of course, Richard
Ramirez, who was the, he wasalso called the night stalker.
So he's different than theoriginal night soccer that
Michelle McNamara wrote about.
Yeah.
He was heavily into the cold andSatanism and he's a creepy dude.
Oh, really creepy.

(10:05):
Some of the other serial killersthat he reached out to and
corresponded with was CharlesManson.
And then also Jeffrey Dahmer.
Oh my God.
He really, he really got themall.
And I remember like 93, thatwas, I think that was when the
Jeffrey Dahmer thing came outbecause I remember being
overseas and hearing, you know,that there had been this
terrible serial killer captured.

(10:25):
Well, if he wrote to Dahmer, itprobably had maybe, maybe 90 is
maybe around the time ithappened with Dahmer.
Cause you have to remember hehad been in prison for a few
years, I think before.
Yeah.
Before he started riding him.
So Jason, he researchedextensively about these killers.
He learned as much of courseabout their crimes, but also
their upbringings and theirpersonalities.

(10:46):
And he really thought about, youknow, what's gonna set me apart
from other people that arewriting these serial killers
because John Wayne Gacy, hewould get hundreds of letters
each week.
We had a lot of them from women.
So he really thought about whatwould appeal to them.
And he, because of hisfascination with clowns, he took
a particular interest incultivating relationship with

(11:06):
Gacy.
And if you, I think almosteverybody knows about John Wayne
Gacy, but just a quick brief.
Um, and he was known as a killerclown and he was known as that
because he was this upstandingcitizen who in his community,
you know, he often dressed up asa clown and met with sick
children.
Or he went to other events.
I mean, he didn't go to everysingle event as a clown, but

(11:29):
certain things c ause he was abusinessman businessman and he
was very successful.
And at that time I know thatabout Gacy.
I don't know a lot about himexcept the clown business.
Yeah.
He, at that time he was, he hada, he had a construction company
and he was pulling in like$300,000 a year.
So this is in the seventies, i nthe seventies,$300,000 a year
was a lot of money.

(11:50):
W hat's a lot of money today fora, you know, s omeone salary.
I think so Gacy was responsiblefor the m urders of 33 young
men.
This was in the Chicago area andhe buried almost all of his
victims underneath his house, inthe crawl space.
And these, his victims wereactually kids anywhere from

(12:13):
anywhere from 14 years old toearly twenties.
And they kind of fit the profileone, you know, being within that
age range, but they were allfit.
They were all very fit.
So you wonder how this guy whowas really out of shape, who's
overweight, how would heoverpower these young, these fit
young men?
And so what he would do is hewould do this thing called the

(12:35):
handcuff trick.
Hey, you want to see a trickwith the handcuffs and who put
the handcuffs on himself?
And then he was able to gethimself out of it.
And then with the, with theyoung guys, he said, Oh, you
want me to try it?
You want to try it?
Let me try it on you.
And a lot of times he would havethem over their house.
Like either he would offer thema job.
They were working for him.
He would apply them in Foos.
I think even drugs, you know,they watch pornography.

(12:58):
I'm going to say the handcuffthing too.
I mean, there's definitely asexual element to that for him.
Yeah.
And that, I think it just toactually just have complete
control over them.
So when he would handcuff them,he would handcuff them behind
the back if I remembercorrectly.
So they were really kind ofdisabled or incapacitated at
that point.
And so he would say, okay, okay,let's see you get out of it.

(13:20):
And they would try and theywould try and they weren't able
to, and then he would pull outthe key and he's like, well you
need this.
And then from there on, it justwent quickly downhill.
And he also, he had this thing,he called the rope trick and
what the rope trick was is thathe would put a rope around their
neck and then have some type of,let's say a stick or something.

(13:41):
And he would use that as agarage.
So he would use that to eitherkill them quickly or to slowly
kill them, like make them passout and then release it,
released the pressure they wouldcome to and then he would do it
again.
And is that how he killed mostof his victims by strangulation?
Yeah.
There were some that I believewere stabbed and I think there

(14:01):
might've been a case wheresomeone was shot, but a lot of
it was strangulation if Iremember correctly, but I can't
be 100% certain, but it soundedlike he killed most of his
victims through strangulation.
He would also pick up guys thathe would call hustlers or male
sex workers and who knows ifthey were really sex workers or
not, but that's how hecharacterized them.

(14:22):
And I think he used that as heused that as an excuse to say,
well, they got what was comingto them.
Terrible.
Yeah.
So back to Jason, he was sothorough in his research that he
actually went to a gay bar andmind you, he's not gay.
He has a girlfriend he'scomfortable in his sexuality.
So it wasn't even questioningbecause that was my thought too.

(14:43):
It's like back in the earlynineties, what heterosexual
straight guy would go to a gaybar.
This is the era of MatthewShepard, you know?
Yes.
He goes to the gay bar and Ithink he asked the bartender or
something, how he could possiblykind of connect, get connected
with a male sex worker.
And I think he directs him atthat time to some ads.

(15:03):
So he reads this ad and this ispre Craigslist.
And he meets up with a male sexworker and he wants to ask him
questions about his profession.
But the guy was like, you know,is he a cop?
Or he was very suspicious andvery reticent in the beginning.
And from this guy, Jason learnedlike the lingo that was used in

(15:26):
sex work.
And how do you go about pickingup someone?
How do you know if they're a sexworker or how do you know if
someone's interested in sex,which is very smart of him.
So he learned all these thingsbecause he wanted to come across
as legit.
And he wanted again to createthis persona to Gacy of this
lonely vulnerable guy or youngman who had like this turbulent

(15:49):
upbringing, especially with hisfather, because Gacy had in his
father was very abusive towardshim.
Okay.
And he also wanted to let on,like he was questioning or
ambiguous about his sexuality,because I think in his mind, if
he wrote Gacy and right off thebat, he said that he identified
as gay or something that Gacywould maybe find that suspect or

(16:09):
be suspicious of it.
But he still wanted to standout.
He wanted to stand out to Gacyas potentially being gay.
This guy really is smart.
He's very smart.
He's very smart.
And he kept meticulous notes ofall his contacts with all these
zero killers.
But he really gets wound up withGacy predominantly, mainly.
And in October of 93 he writesGacy his first letter and he

(16:32):
sends it in the beginning of thefirst few letters.
He starts off and he calls himlike dear mr.
Gacy.
And this is a line from one ofhis letters.
It says, dear mr.
Gacy, I know what it's like tobe bored and alone.
This constant screaming of myfather keeps me secluded in my
room when I'm not in school orat the gym.
I hate it here at home.
And I guess I understand whatit's like to need a friend that

(16:53):
was in his first letter.
It's interesting that he put thedetail about the gym in there.
So maybe Gacy would get thesense that he was this fit guy.
That if that was, sounds likethat was Daisy's type and that's
exactly what he was trying todo.
Well, he was, you know, he knewthat or he felt that Gacy would
find that even more enticing.
So just within seven days hereceives a letter from Gacy.

(17:15):
Oh my God.
And again, you have to keep inmind that Gacy got hundreds of
letters each week.
So Jason's as intended Jason'sletter really stood out to him.
So Gacy, when his letter, it wasonly like a paragraph, but he
also sent a questionnaire and itwas a pretty extensive
questionnaire.
I forgot how many pages it was,but it asked questions.

(17:36):
And I just wrote down a few ofthem just to kind of give you an
idea.
I think one of the firstquestions was, well, why do you
know, why did you write me?
Who was your childhood hero?
And then this one, I thoughtthis one was really really
telling it says, ask him to fillin the blank.
Nobody knows about blank.
So Jason, he said, when heanswered that, Oh, and another

(17:58):
question they asked too was whatis your, your perfect mate?
And it had, he could choose, Ithink male, female.
And he crossed those out andJason crosses out and put
partner.
Okay.
So again, he wasn't trying tocome off right off the bat, like
he was gay, but he wanted tosuggest that there was some, you
know, he questioned hissexuality there.
And then with the fill in theblank, nobody knows about blank.

(18:23):
Jason, who's thinking about,okay, how do I, what do I say?
How do I respond to that?
And he says, nobody knows that.
I think about being a malestripper, which is to me, is
clever.
It is very clever.
Yeah.
And the letters that followGacy, he tried to find out about
Jason's sexual attitudes and hisbehaviors.

(18:43):
And one of the lines in Gacysfirst letter letters read.
And I just think this isimportant to kind of quote it
just so you can see how, howhe's grooming him.
Gacy said, one of the thingsthat you should know about me is
that I'm, open-minded outspokenand very, and not very tactful.
Non-judgemental liberal and byand apprentice easy as bisexual.
So I guess in case Jason didn'tknow what that was.

(19:05):
And as the letters continued,Gacy would even, you know, make
a point or bring up to the factto Jason, that he couldn't
believe that Jason had neverbeen molested by a coach or a
parent or family friend.
He just, just seemed like that.
He just thought that was par forthe course.
And it's probably cause that'swhat he did to other kids.
Jason,

Speaker 3 (19:23):
He, he initially was

Speaker 1 (19:25):
Eventually shared his phone number with Gacy.
Cause he had a separate line inhis house.
And I forgot to mention this inthe beginning, Jason told his
parents what he was going to doand they didn't want him to do
it, but he did it anyway, butthey were still aware of it.
But what he would try to do ishe didn't want them to know.
I guess how many letters he wasgetting from Gacy.

(19:46):
So he had run out to meet themail lady to get the mail.
Eventually Jason shares hisphone number with Gacy and they
begin to talk like every Sunday,Jason has a younger brother.
He's like 14 years old.
And Gacy started expressinginterest in Jason's younger
brother.
Who's 14 is his name was Jared.
He's very inquisitive about himto keep him on the hook.

(20:08):
Jason went to his youngerbrother and he's like, look, you
know, I'm trying to keep thisguy engaged and interested in
me, but he's asking a lot aboutyou.
You don't have to write him aletter.
I'm not asking you to write hima letter.
But if I write a letter to him,can you copy it in your
handwriting?
That way he thinks that you I'mso creeped out by that.

Speaker 3 (20:28):
I know.
I know.
So,

Speaker 1 (20:30):
So Jason gets Jared to go along reluctantly with
this for awhile.
And you can tell that, well,Gacy starts actually he started
calling it their project.
He was trying to get Jason to

Speaker 3 (20:44):
Molested younger brother.
Oh my God.
Yeah.
I wasn't aware

Speaker 1 (20:48):
Of any of this part of the story.
So he was calling it theirproject or the project.
I think he was calling it theProTech and that way he could
refer to it and Gacy at thispoint in time, he's wait, he's
actually going to be executedprobably within six months.
And he was still appealingeverything.
So I guess he wanted some typeof plausible deniability that,
you know, he could just refer tothe, to the project.

(21:10):
So in other words,

Speaker 3 (21:11):
Words he could refer to the project is something that
he needed to continue living forcomplete.
But the pro the project was thisguy molesting his younger
brother.
Am I getting that right?

Speaker 1 (21:19):
No, he wanted Jason to do it right then and there.
Oh, okay.
And he was calling it theproject because he was trying to
appeal his conviction and youknow, the death sentence.
So I guess I think Jason hadmentioned that, that that's why
he thought that he was callingit the project.
He was telling Jason also inletters though, how to go about

(21:41):
it.
And it was really, really gross.
So I should have started offthis story too with a warning or
what I was going to bediscussing.
So I won't go into the specificstudy said in his letter, but it
was really disgusting.
And no matter the conversationthey had, he would always drive
it to some type of sexualconversation and in a letter to
Jason, because Jason was tryingto express some like, well, you

(22:04):
know what?
I really don't want to do that.
I don't know about that, John.
So we went from calling him, mr.
Gacy to John.
You know, I don't know aboutthat.
John and Gacy in one of hisletters to him said, quote,
don't worry.
He's not going to replace mynumber one.
Cause he was thinking that Jasonwas somehow mil was somehow
jealous.

Speaker 3 (22:23):
God, that's such a, like has such a twisted
understanding of everything.

Speaker 1 (22:27):
Oh yeah.
It was so twisted.
So twisted, so demented.
And it became apparent to Jasonthat if you wanted to maintain
any type of relationship withGacy and continue to string him
along, he would have to makesomething up about molesting
Jared.
That was sound plausible andkeep him keep Gacy happy.

Speaker 3 (22:45):
Couldn't that be incriminating if even if it's
lies that you're writing.
Well,

Speaker 1 (22:49):
It felt so too.
Cause it was like, it justseemed very childish of Gacy to
be as smart as he was to thinkthat, you know, no one could
read those letters and realizethat what he was trying to set
up.
But I just think he was sodriven by sex and this need to
control and to dominate that hejust basically couldn't help
himself.
But in his mind, like if he wassomehow and evasive in some

(23:11):
parts of these letters that itwouldn't, you know, they
couldn't giggle him on it.
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (23:15):
Yeah.
And it sounds like Jason, he wasso good at entering into
somebody else's language intheir code words and all of
that.
So that he was able to do thatreally well with Gacy.
And so they were almost talking,they were talking about things
in this metaphorical way,probably that like they're
actually language.

Speaker 1 (23:33):
He was good at that.
So yeah.
I'm glad that you brought thatup.
He was, he was really good atthat.
And Jason, just listening tothis, of course he can extract
himself from the situation atany moment.
But at this point he, I thinkhe's just so intent on achieving
his goal, that he just can't letgo.
So he makes up like, or eludesto that he's, you know, doing

(23:54):
stuff with his or he's molestinghis younger brother.
His brother was like 14 and hetold Gacy or he, he poses Jared
and told Gacy that, Hey, myparents got me a typewriter, so
I'm gonna start using atypewriter.
So that way he could just teachus, took Jared completely out of
the equation.
That's good.
Yeah.
That was a smart, clever way todo that too.

(24:15):
Yeah, he was very clever.
He was very clever and Gacydidn't seem to catch on to that.
And Jason had remarked in hisbook that mentally, it really
had this cumulative effect onhim of, you know, something
comparable to sexual abuse.
I'm sure because you imaginethose things when he's talking
about them and wanting you to dothem, you are thinking, okay,

(24:36):
well he wants me to do X andthis is horrendous.
And that control issue that youwere talking about earlier.
I mean that even, I don't knowif Jason would have said this or
not.
It'd be interesting to get yourtake on it, but that Gacy, at
least saw himself as in controland was controlling some of his
imaginings.
Oh, he was.
And he's just, um, mastermanipulator.

(24:57):
If you go back, if you read thebook and you read all the
letters, you can just see itbuilding and know that this is
what he's done a million timesover.
I want to read this book.
It sounds fascinating.
And so there was like a gapbetween in time, as far as it
had been quite some time, Ithink since Jared had
corresponded with Gacy.
So he, Jared AKA, Jason sent aletter to Gacy the typewritten

(25:22):
letter and just, you know, madean excuse for not getting back
to him and Gacy writes backimmediately and he opens it with
hi ho bro, what is it?
And I guess calling them like aho, okay, they're both, I don't
know, very sexual people.
And he scolds Jared basicallyfor not writing them back

(25:43):
quickly enough.
And you know, he continues togroom who he thought was Jared.
And his letter said, what youhave to understand is that
talking to me is like talking toa buddy.
He said, we three share a commonbond.
And just like, I have becomeJason's big brother.
He knows that he can count on menot to laugh or make fun of what
he tells me and nor am I evergoing to be judgmental of what

(26:06):
he says.
And he says, Jason can.
I mean, he says that Jerichotrusts him as well.
Do you think Casey really feltthat?
Or do you think that was more ofan manipulation tactic, total
manipulation tactic and I'll,you'll see even more why and
when Gacy writes Jason, he, atone point he said something that
was really Jason thought was oddand was trying to guess what he

(26:28):
was trying exactly what he wastrying to communicate to him.
But Gacy had written him and,you know, made some statement
that the Bible preaches againsttaking this.
This is a quote actually.
So Gacy, I hate to keep quoting,but I just want to show for word
it's important.
Cause their letters, you know, Ithink it's important to hear in
their voices and how he goesabout, you know, with

(26:49):
manipulation, how it just buildsand how masterful he is at it.
If you, if you were a young kidwho was vulnerable, how easy
that would be to take advantageof someone.
So in his letter he says toJason, he says the Bible
preaches against taking her ownlife.
But sometimes it's the rightthing to do.
Your life will hit rock bottomsomeday.

(27:10):
And when the time is right,you'll know what to do and also
how to do it.
So Jason was floored by that andhe was thinking, does he, you
know, want me to kill myself?
Or does he, you know, what doeshe mean by when the time is
right?
You know, or at some point in mylife, it will be the right thing
to do.
You just kind of stuck in hismind fast forward.
It isn't too much longer thatGacy invites Jason to visit him

(27:34):
at, um, Menard correctionalcenter and Illinois cause
Illinois that's where he was at.
And this probably would havebeen around Jason's spring
break.
Okay.
And he told Jason that if youcome here, you know, I'll share
more information with you.
You know, although I'm innocent,I'll share more information
about the crimes and thevictims.

(27:55):
And so he was, you know, tryingto learn Jason N and he also
said that he would pay for theflight, his stay there.
How is he paying for all ofthat?
Because I, he was a person ofmeans, but in prison, what you
lose all of that.
It doesn't sound like it, itdoesn't sound like it.
I think he still had some meansand we think he spent it all on

(28:18):
his attorneys, but maybeattorneys were less expensive
then.
And he also though he paintedlike pictures of clowns.
And I think he did one of thesnow white and the seven doors.
And some of those was sell forthousands and thousands of
dollars.
So people collect those it's socreepy.
People will probably sendingthem money in prison too.
So Jason goes to his parents andhe announces to them, or about

(28:42):
this invitation that he got.
And of course his mom is like,no way you're not going.
And my being a parent, I neverwould have gone along with the
letter writing either.
But, you know, she says no way,the father's very passive.
He butts heads with his mom awhole lot.
And she was the one who wassaying that he couldn't go.

(29:02):
And I think she even talks toGacy at one point.
And he's like, Gacy tells her,well, I can have the warden call
you.
And would that make you feelbetter?
Which would not make me feelbetter as a parent would call
her when Jason would call her orafter they've met or would call
her prior to okay.
To explain like the securitymeasures.

(29:24):
Okay.
And so the warden calls and hetells Jason's mom that they
would be seated in two separaterooms and there'll be the class
partition between them.
And that there would be guardswalking the halls every few
minutes.
And also that Gacys hands andlegs would both be shackled and
there would be, be a securitycamera.
Okay.

(29:44):
But what Jason's Von didn't knowwas the warden.
Wasn't the warden, the wardenwas a guard, one of the guards.
Oh, that Gacy con or something.
Yeah.
He could pay them.
He really ingratiated himselfwith the guards.
He also still like, you know,some people and even like some
of the guards saw him as acelebrity because he was a

(30:04):
celebrity, but for all the wrongreasons.
So I imagine that there wasprobably money involved for this
one.
Cause that's a really big thingto do.
So Gacy tells Jason, okay, flyin and I'll pay for your flight
and hotel.
And I've made arrangements formy attorney to pick you up.
When Jason gets there, there isa man waiting on him, but he

(30:24):
doesn't resemble anything likeCasey's attorney the way that
Gacy had described him.
And so they introduce themselvesand this guy introduced himself
as Ken.
And he explained that he handledbasically a lot of Gacys errands
and different things, eventhings for his legwork, for his
illegal stuff.

(30:44):
So they go back to the hotel andKen says to the clerk is like,
you know, one room, double beds.
And Jason's like, no, we'resupposed to be in, it has to be
two rooms.
And Ken's like kind of whiningabout it.
Well, John doesn't want to payfor two rooms.
And Jason was, was adamant.

(31:05):
And he's saying, look, myparents, this is one of the, one
of the stipulations for me beingable to come is that I have my
own room.
So he breaks down and he getshim another room.
Good.
And you're wondering like whythis is going on.
And what I think is happeningis, is that Gacy was setting up
like some type of sexualencounter.
Absolutely.
A hundred percent.
Okay.

Speaker 3 (31:26):
I was just thinking that I'm like, he was clearly,
he was probably manipulatingthis Ken guy because he wanted
this other fantasy to be playingout on the fringes.
So it's, it's almost like justthese circles within circles of

Speaker 1 (31:38):
Abusive behavior.
That's a great way to describeit.
That's a great way to describeit.
So Ken takes Jason to Menard andit's located, I think, is in
Chester field or Chestervilleand Illinois, not that that's
really all that pertinent tothe, to the story, but he takes
him there and he tells him whathe needs to do.
Like what the process will be.

(32:00):
Just so I guess Jason, isn'toverwhelmed and Jason's asking
him a lot of questions at thispoint.
He's very nervous.
So Jason finally goes inside andhe's led back down this corridor
or to where there's like alarger visiting area.
Then the guard lets him in.
And then he sees Gacy standingthere and Gacys is only

(32:21):
handcuffed.
And he was nervous.
And he's calling back to theguard, like when will you be
back?
The guard seemed like he hadlike this kind of slight grin on
his face and turned his back.
And I forgot what he said, youknow, later or something.
So there wasn't going to be thispatrolling every few minutes.
Like his mom was lit.
Like they both were led tobelieve and there's no glass,

(32:44):
they're just in the same room.
Well, that's the large visitingarea.
But what happens is, is thatGacy is like gestures towards
him to go to this other room.
So there are other little roomsback there and some of them are
like really, really, um, reallysmall.
And there was nobody else backthere.
Again, there's no partitionsbetween them.
There's certainly any Arnoneguards back there.

(33:06):
And Gacy only has handcuffs likeloosely on his wrists and he's
not shackled at the legs.
And Jason also noticed likethere was a small janitorial
room or closet that was acrossfrom them with a chair in it.
And the camera was turned awayfrom them and their little room
that they were in.
And they're like right up oneach other.

(33:28):
And again, you know, Jason is,Jason is a big guy.
He probably had a foot on Gacy.
He was kind of barrel chested orbroad chested.
Did he have broad shoulders?
He did.
He did have broad shoulders.
So, you know, he thought tohimself, well, I can always
overpower this guy.
I'm a, kickboxer I'm strong.
So he had that in the back ofhis mind, but he was still like

(33:50):
shaking, you know, he's like hisheart was pounding out of his
chest.
And so Gacy is very friendlywith him for a few hours and,
you know, made him at ease.
And after a few hours there was,there was like this noticeable,
extreme shift in Gacys friendlybehavior and mood and went to
like this really angry one.

(34:11):
And he tells Jason that you, youknow, you're alone with me and
you're going to do, as I say,Oh, so he was done grooming him
at this point, Gacy.
He lying as web probably.
And Jason's supposed to visithim three times three, have
three visits.
And I can't believe you saidthey're together for hours.
I just, I think things haveprobably changed since then,

(34:32):
because I just sounds unheardof, to me, I'm sure they have
changed, but you still probablyhave guards that are shady that
let go down.
You know, that's true.
So he's locked in here with Gacyand h e's still trying to get
this information from him, t heinformation he wants.
C ause C asey supposedly haslike these files or binders that
are full of information thatother people haven't seen,

(34:55):
certainly not the FBI orprosecutors or anything.
And so Jason wants thisinformation.
He wants to look at it, but he,in order to do that, he can't
just break out.
Like I'm g oing t o kick your.
He has to continue in this roleof this kind of passive kid.
Exactly.
And I was thinking, when youwere talking about how he was
trembling, even though he'sthis, you know, clearly a fit

(35:16):
and big guy, how hard it wouldbe to be that afraid.
And yet also having to keep theact up because you have to have
this other part of your brain,you know, you're using.
And I feel like the fearresponse really would prevent
you from having enough in theexecutive functioning part of
your brain to pull all of thatother stuff off.
Oh 100%.
I mean, I know I would be justbreaking bad at that point as

(35:38):
best

Speaker 3 (35:38):
I could, you'd be running for your life.
I just know

Speaker 1 (35:42):
Going out that way.
Um, so he still trying to, youknow, keep up this persona and
then Gacy just is berating himand raising his voice and
yelling and he's telling themhow Wiki is.
And he said to him, and thisgoes back to Jared.
He said, you know, if I was abad guy, I tell the cops what
you did to your brother.
And they take him away when he'ssaying these things and he's

(36:04):
berating Jason and telling himhow weak he was and telling him
he would go to jail.
If he told the police of what hewas supposedly doing with his
brother and, you know, do youreally want to go to jail?
So he's trying to blackmail him.
Also at one point he gave Jasonsome baby oil that he had hidden
away and he, and he threatenedto stab Jason with a pen that he

(36:28):
was gripping in his hand.
If he didn't, what if he didn't?
Well, he was like, he wanted himto like jerk him off or
something different.
I should've mentioned this atdifferent points throughout
this.
He, especially on his braidinghim, Gacys like grabbing himself
and undoing his zipper and thatkind of thing.
So in then also that chair, thatJason kind of thought was out of

(36:48):
place in the janitor's closet.
He wanted to rape Jason, Iguess, over the chair.
Oh my God.

Speaker 3 (36:54):
Rape.
Or have consensual sex.
I mean, was he actually going totry to rape her?

Speaker 1 (36:58):
Well, if you're like coursing somebody with a pen in
your hand, and he's saying like,I can stab you in the neck with
this pen and watch you bleedout.
That's true.
Yeah.
And at that point, Jason,instead of karate in him or
kickboxing or whatever the theydo instead of doing that, he
just breaks down sobbing at thispoint.
And he's pleading with Gacy andlike, why are you doing this?

(37:20):
I thought you were my friend.
And as he went on, like with thec rine a nd the pleading Gacy, I
think just grew tired o f, t heyboth grew tired and t hat time
ended that they were together.
I guess Jason theorizes, that Gacy thought Jason was not going
to return the next day aftergoing through that.
So he off, n o, I can't imagine.

(37:41):
I c annot.
And like I said, there's a lotmore to this story than I even
realized.
So he offers to give Jason apainting the next day and also
to allow him to go through hisfiles.
And that's what Jason reallywanted.
So Jason still went the nextday.
He, well, first of all, whenJason goes back out and he sees

(38:01):
Ken, K en p icks h im up, hetells Ken what happened.
And Ken is like, Oh, I can'tbelieve h e, he did that.
And you know, that's not likehim and

Speaker 3 (38:13):
It's not like John Wayne Gacy to Ken.

Speaker 1 (38:15):
I think might've been related in some way to Gacy.
N also he just seemed like, kindof like a poor pitiful person
that he was like a hanger on andGacy afforded him a celebrity to
a certain extent.
So he, you know, he acts like,he's all surprised by this.
And Jason, he goes back foranother visit and Gacy again

(38:37):
just started berating him.
But at one point I think beforethen he said to Jason, do you
want to see the, the rope trick?
And Jason's like, okay.
So he puts this pen under thisbracelet Jason was wearing and
he starts to turn it to thepoint where it's putting all
this pressure and hurting him.
And even at one point too, Ithink he, I think he was trying

(38:58):
to kiss him at one point.
And again, he was threateninghim with the pen and Jason was
just completely freaked out andscared.
And during their conversationthough, Gacy did slip a few
times and said things thatincriminated him.
Although he would always saythat he was set up that he
didn't do this.
He, you know, there's 33 bodiesin your, in your crawlspace.

(39:21):
Exactly.
And again, during this visit andduring, with the rope trick that
he was using with his bracelet,the pen, he was starting with a
pen and he was also groping him.
So he was around victimized.
I mean, clearly this guy was, hewas, he got a lot more than he
bargained for.
So at that time, Ken comes inwith a guard who's approaching.
And Ken had said out loud beforethey got to the room, like, Oh,

(39:43):
we're here kind of alerting Gacybecause obviously he knew that
Gacy did this kind of stuff orat least had sexual encounter
sometimes when he had visitorsthere and he was just kind of
alerting them to the fact that,you know, Hey, we're just right
around the corner.
So you need to put your Dickback in your pants or whatever.
So Jason, he's supposed to goback the next day.

(40:04):
And he's like, tells Kent,, no,I am not.

Speaker 3 (40:09):
I'm so pleased for Jason.
Oh my God.

Speaker 1 (40:12):
Jason has grown to a new like he's yeah.
He's reached a new level ofgrowth in emotional maturity.
Yeah.
Well fuck's my word.
It wasn't his, but he was justlike, no, there is no way I'm
going back.
Absolutely not.
So he gets, he goes home.
And when he comes home, hedoesn't, he wants to save face
with his mom too, because she'sbeen telling him all along that

(40:33):
he shouldn't go and he wasn'tgoing to be successful.
Or why would he want to do this?
So when he comes home, he didn'ttell his parents or his brother.
What happened?
What happened next was is thatwhen Gacy would call, of course
these would be collect calls andGacy had Ken call to try to call
Jason and Jason didn't pick up.
He just let his recorder get it.

(40:54):
And Ken had made some remark toGacy.
Like he wouldn't answer.
And there was just some weirdglitch with Jason's voice his
recorder.
Cause at that time, you know,they were taped some weird
glitch with it that it continuedto record when Gacy and them, I
guess, well, maybe they thoughtthey hung up and they didn't.
And Gacy is going off aboutJason and starts talking to Ken

(41:16):
about how he's going toblackmail him, how he's going to
tell people about what he did tohis little brother.
And so that was part of the plantoo.
I think it, uh, in addition togetting off on trying to get
Jason to do this, he also wasgoing to use that as leverage
over him.
Yeah.
It served a double purpose forhim.
It went on for a little bit andthen Jason picks up the phone
and he told Gacy that he had theblackmail plans on tape and he

(41:40):
threatened to release them tolike various entertainment
shows, like hard copy and, andplaces like that.
And Jason was still worriedabout what Gacy might do.
So he did share with his parentseverything.
Okay.
Every single thing.
And they were supportive.
And I think the might evenlooked into getting your
attorney or something.
I hope he had some

Speaker 3 (41:59):
Counseling, some therapy after that.

Speaker 1 (42:01):
It never mentioned that I could see that he did, he
all this, like with a visit,this will happen shortly before
Gacy was executed.
So he could have just been like,Oh, I'm going to take one more
person out and I'm going to killhim.
Or maybe he wouldn't have gonethat far as to kill him because
he still thought like, to thevery end that somehow that the
execution was going to be stayedand Gacy was executed on May

(42:27):
10th, 1994.
So you figure this all startedin 93.
So this is within less than ayear's time, frankly.

Speaker 3 (42:33):
He was executed.
Was he executed in that prisonor was he moved and how was he
killed?

Speaker 1 (42:38):
He was killed through lethal injection.
And for some reason I thought itwas there.
Um, but there was some glitchwith the execution, like some of
the chemicals weren't working.
Right.
So it took longer to kill him.
So Jason's completelytraumatized as anybody would buy
these whole events, but he stillkinda, you know, he becomes very

(42:59):
depressed about it, you know,after Gacys execution.

Speaker 3 (43:02):
Oh, I was just going to say, I think there's that
traumatic bonding that happensbetween victim and perpetrator
that it can happen.
And I imagine I'm just imaginingthat Gacys death was maybe hard
on him in some ways,

Speaker 1 (43:13):
Like it was, this whole thing was a real head fog.
I mean, he didn't, you know, hewasn't saying that, Oh, this
never should have happened.
Like he never should have beenexecuted.
Right.
So when I was telling you fromthe beginning of the story that
Jason wanted to become, wantingto work in law enforcement, like
the FBI or secret service, or heactually became a criminal

(43:34):
defense attorney.
Really.
Wow.
I didn't see that one coming andon June six and 2006, he dies by
suicide in his home.
Jason does?
Yeah.
At the age of 31.
Oh my God.
Yeah.
Oh.
And I tried to find moreinformation on it.
The few things that I did readwere very short, but evidently

(43:55):
as an adult, he had sufferedfrom depression, like severe
depression.
So young, so young, but youknow,

Speaker 3 (44:03):
Remembering what Gacy said to him and if you're really
depressed and you have this inthe back of your mind, plenty
healthy planted in your mind,but there's almost something
that feels, I'm not saying it issupernatural, but you know what
I'm trying to say that it almostfeels like Gacys murdering him
from beyond the grave.

Speaker 1 (44:20):
[inaudible] and that's why I wanted to include
that part in there.
Cause I thought it was reallysignificant.
Absolutely.
That he planted that in hishead.
And then the book was publishedin 1999 and then seven short
years later, he's dead.
And what is the book calledagain?
What's the title?
The book is called the lastvictim.
Okay.
Oh, and the co author Kotler whohad been one of his psychology

(44:44):
instructors.
He talked into actually writingthis book with him.
Co-writing the book.
He talked him into it cause hewas initially reluctant to do
so.
And he was saying that he hadtalked to Jason, not too long
before his suicide, because theywere talking about making, you
know, they'd been offered like amovie deal.
It would be an amazing movie.
And well, it was made into amovie in 2010.

(45:05):
What was that called?
Oh, it was called I think dearmr.
Gacy.
And it was really panned, soit's too bad cause it, I watched
it many years ago and I can'tremember everything that was in
it.
I just remember being reallyfreaked out by it.
Does the movie end with hissuicide?
I don't know.
I don't know because Jason died.
It was in 2006.
So if the movie was released in2010, it could have had it

(45:27):
probably hit, maybe had somereference at the end to it.
I don't know.
I'm afraid to watch it againbecause it's just so I'll watch
it if you watch it so creepy.
It is creepy.
It's very, u m, the word thatjust keeps coming to my head is
trauma trauma trauma seems likeJason went in with noble
intentions, but it was alsoself-serving b ecause he was
curious and we all want to serveour own curiosity and you know,

(45:49):
we all believe that we can dothings that others can't, but
just seems like he was o ut maneuvered in the chess game.
And I know it's more complexthan that, but um, I'm just
thinking about how that must'vestayed with him all those years.
And how you wonder, like, did hehave a genetic predisposition to
depression or did he suffer fromit because of these traumas or

(46:09):
was it a little bit of both, butI would think that that
definitely had to play into hisdepression, I think a hundred
percent.
It must've, I think there's whatdo they call it?
The stress diaphysis theory that, um, you can have an underlying
predisposition, but it's, it canbe triggered by things that
happen in your life.
Yeah.
Especially traumatic things.
What's it called?
Um, I think it's stressdiathesis.

(46:31):
It could be wrong.
I have to look it up on myphone, but I'm pretty sure
that's what it's called kind ofthe interplay between genetic
and then what happens to you andthe co-author has professor
Jeffrey Kotler.
I know, I know that name, John.
I probably have trying toremember what he writes about,
but I feel like he's done somebooks on the counseling
profession and um, I know I havea book by him.

(46:53):
I just can't place it.
You have to find out, let meknow he teaches or at the time
of comments that he made shortlyafter Jason's, um, suicide.
He, I think was teaching maybein California at that time at a
university or a college there.
And if you back up just a bit,and this is the last little
thing that I'll talk about, hedid correspond with other serial

(47:15):
killers, but I didn't even wantto go straight down those
avenues.
And you know, one of them beingRamirez well, Ramirez again, was
heavily involved in the cult andblack magic and that sort of
thing.
And Jason had to write like hewas into that and that he would
be basically a disciple ofRamirez and Koller did say that

(47:37):
it did make him wonder that hecommitted.
If you look at it, June six,2006, that's six, six, six.
And he did wonder like, is thata coincidence?
Or did he plan that, that dayplanned it that way for a
reason?

Speaker 3 (47:51):
I mean, this guy seems like no detail escaped
him.
He was very, he was verylinguistically attuned and he
was attuned to what words meantand what they suggested beneath.
So it makes me think it couldn'tpossibly be a coincidence.
And what does that mean?

Speaker 1 (48:07):
Yeah, that's what I was thinking too.
And there was no mention of a,um, letter or anything like
that.
He did have a wife and I couldnot find anything about that.
If you want to go back andlisten to some of his
interviews, he was actually on2020, there was like a two part
series and that extra show, likethe entertainment show.

(48:28):
And evidently he also appearedon the Howard stern show, but I
couldn't find that I couldn'tfind any I'll have to

Speaker 3 (48:34):
Look.
I really definitely want to readthe book.
I'll

Speaker 1 (48:36):
Share it with you from a distance.
I'll drop it off or something,but it's, I think it's a really
good book.
I mean, it just gives you, Ithink, insight into basically
what he set out to do sayingthat maybe there wasn't as not
enough insight from herperspective of the victim.

Speaker 3 (48:52):
And I wonder, and I don't know if he talks about
this in the book, but I wonderwhat new insights he felt like
he had about Gacy or whatCasey's motivations were.
I mean, cause I feel like peopleare already figured that Gacy
was a sexual predator and thathe was motivated by sex and
manipulation.
So did he really discoveranything new?
Although if you think about, ifyou think about what it, how it

(49:14):
effected him, maybe heunderstood not from Gacys
perspective, but he was able tounderstand how Gacy could
manipulate these people and whatit felt like to be one of his
victims.
And you could argue that he wasone of his victims and maybe
that's what he discovered.

Speaker 1 (49:29):
If you think about it.
I mean, he was able to get onpaper kind of, you know, line by
line of how the script that Gacyused to, to manipulate people.
And then he did say many, atimes that, you know, when he
was there, he was thinking tohimself, Oh my God, this is how,
this is how this happened toother people.
And I know exactly how theyfeel.

(49:49):
And when he was interviewed,they asked him if he would do it
again.
And he said, if I had any idea,if I knew, then what I knew now
there's no way I would've donethis.
Oh gosh.

Speaker 3 (49:58):
And it's crazy that two, two days, not even whole
days, but two parts of dayscould impact your life that
much.

Speaker 1 (50:05):
Yeah.
And he was also like immersed inreading about all that stuff.
But then again, there's so manypeople in society that are
immersed in reading,

Speaker 3 (50:15):
We better take extra good care of our mental health.
My friend.
Yes.
Yes.
Let's look out for each other.
Well, so what did you think?
I thought it was amazing.
Are we still recording or are wesorry?
Um, I thought it was an amazingstory.
I think it may have been thebest story that you've told yet
and it's just really tellingyeah, I was on the edge of my
seat the whole time.

(50:36):
And I, from your story, I feel alittle traumatized just, yeah, I
feel a little bit, you feeldirty, dirty.
I, that was, that was the word Iwas thinking, but I didn't want
to say it, but I'm glad you did.
Um, I do feel dirty.
I feel it's, it's just, it'svery disheartening to think that
evil sometimes gets the upperhand and yeah, you're right.
It does.

(50:56):
It is a hard pill to swallowthat, you know, I think I always
want to believe that it doesn'tthat good prevails that, but I
think, I always believe thatgood is way more powerful than
evil.
And I think on the whole it is.
But I think there are timesthere are places where evil is
predominant.
I will definitely

Speaker 2 (51:13):
Lend you or give you the book.
My friend, because I don't know.
I don't think I'll ever rereadthis again in my lifetime with
that we would like to thankeveryone who listens.
And the best thing you can do tohelp us grow is to like review
and subscribe on iTunes and evenbetter yet if you tweet about us
or post about us on Facebook andtell your friends, if you think

(51:35):
that they would like us,[inaudible].