Special Guest Episode: Sins of the Son - The Heinous Crimes of Hadden Clark - Beneath Your Bed Podcast

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Are certain people born evil or does life sometimes
have a way of warping a goodsoul into something
unrecognizably horrible.
Tonight's story of one derangedkiller Hadden.
Clark.
We'll have you asking that veryquestion.
We'll be joined by a specialguest who worked with Clark as a
corrections officer during theearly days of Clark's
incarceration to protect ourguests identity.

(00:21):
We'll be referring to him as Jimthroughout tonight's show Jen,
Hey Jen, how are you?
I'm doing really well tonight.
How are you?
I'm doing great.
I'm really excited abouttonight's episode.
I am the first guest.

(00:41):
I know the fact that we have ourfirst guest is so exciting.
Maybe we're actually becominglegitimate.
I feel like that.
So, so yeah.
So we want to introduce ourguests.
Whose name is Jim and Jim?
Um, we're so excited to have youhere this evening.

Speaker 2 (00:54):
Well, thank you for having me.
I don't know how legitimate I'mgoing to make you, but we'll
give it a shot.

Speaker 1 (00:59):
Trust me anything, any little tiny bit of
legitimacy.
It's going to be more than whatwe already have.
So, so we're, we're justexcited.
You're here.
And I'm just going to go aheadand talk a bit about what we'll
be discussing this evening, andthen we'll, we'll talk about
drinks and all of that.
But so the reason we, we decidedto invite Jim is because he has
some really up close andpersonal interaction with a

(01:21):
really, really scary figure.
So we're going to be discussingthe life and crimes of Hadden
Clark, who may or may not be aserial killer, depending on what
evidence you want to permit.
And we'll talk more about thatlater, but he definitely killed
two people in a really, reallyhorrible way, a young woman and
a young girl on really, reallyawful crimes.

(01:42):
So Jim actually worked withHatton at the Montgomery County
correctional facility inRockville, Maryland.
And so has really someinteresting insights, just I
think working in, you know,corrections in general, but also
working with a criminal, thelikes of Hadden Clark.
So we're going to talk aboutHadden's life upbringing.
We're going to talk about hiscrimes and then we're going to
really delve in with Jim and getsome insight into what it's like

(02:06):
to work with someone like that.
But before we do that, we wantto talk about what we're
drinking, because that's reallyimportant to us.
So Jen, let's start with you.
What are you drinking?
I am having a coconut rum punch.
Beautiful.
It's such a pretty color.
Thank you.
It calls for coconut rum.
It also has pineapple in it.
It has OJ.
It also has some fruit punch aswell.

(02:27):
And lemonade forgot about thelemon rum.
Does it have in it altogether?
It has three ounces of rum, butI doubled up.
So Lord have mercy because I wasgoing to say that's a lot of
mixer, you know?
So I thought, well, that's morehoney, that's more fruit juice
than drink in there.
But I guess not with six ouncesof rum in lime as well.
Jim, what are you drinking?

(02:48):
Cause we did warn you that youneeded to bring something to
drink.

Speaker 2 (02:51):
Yes, I had nothing.
So bougie or fancy is what youguys usually do.
I am drinking brew from Dogfish.

Speaker 1 (02:58):
Ooh, nice.
We were just talking aboutDogfish had the other day brew.
That sounds fun.
What is it?
Did you say it's an IPA or

Speaker 3 (03:06):
No, it's a, um, it's kind of a mixture of a need and
a wood barrel aged beer kind of,um, it's hard to describe they,
they, it gets its name from themiles Davis album brew and you
know, they got his picture onthe label.

Speaker 1 (03:20):
Oh, that's so cool.
If they come in like thesereally large bottles, right.
Just for a special occasion.

Speaker 3 (03:28):
That's right.
And it's 9%.
Wow.

Speaker 1 (03:31):
Wow.
Maybe not as much as gen sixshots of coconut rums.
It's still pretty good.
We'll see how bougie I am by theend of this episode, something
tells me not very bougie.
Jen actually got me forChristmas.
A bottle of God.
We may shoe, which is thisJapanese plum wine.
And I ha I'm just telling Jimthis.
I know I told you this lasttime, Jen, but, um, I got super

(03:53):
excited cause I thought it was ahundred, there was a hundred
percent on the bottle and I waslike, whew, this is going to be
great.
But it turns out it was just 14%alcohol.
So it wasn't like pure greenplum line.
Anything

Speaker 3 (04:05):
That'd be pretty rough.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (04:06):
It's probably just as well that it wasn't, but it was
good.
I'm actually drinking.
Um, and I'll let you come toyour own conclusions about why,
but I made a peach martini thisevening.
It is, I used two ounces ofvodka about an ounce of sham,
bore of course, peach nectar, Ithink two ounces of that.
And then about a half ounce oflime juice and then garnished
with raspberries.
It's really good.

(04:28):
And you're on your second,second.
Yeah, I quadrupled it.
In fact, like I made so muchthat it was overflowing my
shaker, so I probably should notquite try quadrupling in the
future.
We'll see how you

Speaker 3 (04:38):
Fare tonight.
Jen's level yet.
Yeah.
Jenny,

Speaker 1 (04:40):
You may have a lot of editing ahead of you as always.
I'm sure I will.
So should we just jump in?
Cause I feel like we have a lotto talk about tonight and I want
to make sure that we use ourtime.
Well, since we have Jim with usand he make us sick of us when
he can get off of here after,after too long and he's already
been on here over an hour.

(05:01):
So Jen, I think you're going tostart us off, right?
Yeah.
I'm going to start us off.
I'm just going to talk about,and Clark's upbringing his
family because I think it's, hehas a really complicated
upbringing and a reallyinteresting one at the same time
and not in a good sort of way.
So hadn't his full name isHadden Irving Clark.
And he was born on July 31st,1952 in Troy New York.

(05:23):
And he was the second of fourchildren.
And I think it's important too,to just kind of go on the birth
order of his siblings becauseyou know, they're important part
of the story as well.
His oldest brother was BradfieldHadden Clark, and he was born in
1951.
And then the head and Clarkwe're talking about tonight had
an Irving Clark.
He was born, as I said, July31st, 1952.

(05:44):
Then there was the birth of hisbrother Jeffrey or I guess,
would it be Jeffrey or JeffJeffrey?
We have a friend who spells herkid's name like that.
And it's just Jeffrey it's G E OF F R E Y.
And he was born in 1955

Speaker 4 (05:58):
And then the youngest is Alison Clark and she was born
in 1959.
They moved a lot when they wereyoung, they moved up to like two
times a year and the oldestbrother Bradfield, he also, he,
all the children have problems,but Bradfield had a real bad or
had a real bad problem with histemper.
He angered easily.

(06:19):
He would lash out, but he wasconsidered, he was considered
very successful at least in thebeginning.
So once they started to become alittle bit more settled, the mom
Flavio is her name.
She started to suspect that herkids were troubled one as I was
talking earlier with, with, uh,Bradfield angry and easily and
lashing out, especially withhadn't, he had a lot of

(06:42):
problems, like problems withbalance and he would trip very
easily and she ended up takinghim to a number of specialists
and he was so clumsy or hetripped so easily.
And so frequently that as asmall child, his mom's, his mom
Flavio's solution to this was toput padded tape around his head.

(07:04):
So he wouldn't get, yeah, so hewouldn't get a concussion.

Speaker 1 (07:07):
I wonder if that was embarrassing for him like with
other kids or maybe he was tooyoung to really care.

Speaker 4 (07:13):
I would venture to say that perhaps it was
embarrassing.
He was probably too young atthat time.
So when he was four, she senthim to this, um, yells study
center where he saw doctors anddifferent specialists and they
determined that they said thathe had cerebral palsy and some
mild brain damage and kids wereafraid of him because not only

(07:37):
would he lash out like hisbrother, he would get really
angry lash out.
He did it far more often, butkids were afraid of him because
of that.
So they didn't want to play withhim because he would get mad.
He would physically try to hurtthem or sulk when he didn't get
his way.
And they were just, they werereally scared.
So he didn't really have anybodyto, to play with.
There was one family inparticular that the Clarks would

(07:58):
get together with and I thinkhave dinner and that sort of
thing.
But I think due to his behaviorand the family was just kind of
strange in general, thatparticular family kind of
started to distance themselvesfrom,

Speaker 1 (08:09):
From the Clarks as well and really lonely for them.

Speaker 4 (08:11):
Oh, it does.
I mean, for all of them, itsounds like it was a terrible
upbringing.
So when Hadden, as he got older,the older tougher kids would
make fun of him and torment himbecause they weren't afraid of
him.
He, the way he would get hisrevenge is that he would kidnap
their pets and then he wouldkill them and leave them on the
porch of these people that inhis mind had

Speaker 1 (08:31):
Wronged him.
They were cats and full up inthis John

Speaker 4 (08:34):
Or there were all sorts of animals, I think,
mostly cats and dogs, but healso evidently the father and
his name is also hadn't as well.
The father would take Bradfieldhunting with him or Brad hunting
with him, but he wouldn't takeHadden.
The only thing was a littleunclear is that it looked like
that they not only hunted withBen only hunted with guns, but I
think they did some trapping aswell.

(08:55):
Well, hadn't learned to trap, soI don't know if he did that on
his own or his father wouldn'ttake them if they were just
using guns, but would allow himto go if they were just setting
traps or hadn't just learned howto do this on his own.
So he learned to trap animalsand he would capture quite a few
like mostly squirrels andraccoons and that sort of thing.
But I got most of theinformation on, and Clark's

(09:19):
upbringing from this book calledborn evil, true story of
cannibalism and serial murder byAdrian Havel.
And it was published in 2001.
And this book provided the mostinformation that I could find
about his upbringing.
Cause it's kind of limited.
I mean, you see some things hereand there, but you really don't
know like what is reallyreliable and what isn't, what is
just speculation or rumorversus, you know, actually

(09:39):
having interviewed familymembers and other people.
So I think this book is probablythe most solid source for, for
his upbringing.
So anyway, he would trap theseanimals and according to the
book, they had quote a highmortality rate and I know it was
like, Oh my God.
So he would keep them for awhile.
He would keep them up up until amonth at the longest, but he

(09:59):
would almost always kill themand dissect them.
And the only one that kind oflasts for a bit was this one
raccoon, I guess, that he hadfound in the neighborhood that
had been injured.
And he actually taught thatraccoon to sit on his head and
he would ride his bike aroundwith this record.

Speaker 1 (10:14):
I just have to say like, that's a bad sign when
you're killing animals at thatyoung age, just like th the
research shows that you know,that, um, that is definitely a,
an indication of some conductdisorder or antisocial stuff
going on,

Speaker 4 (10:28):
Even pre-research.
I mean, if your kids trappinganimals and on a regular basis,
and then always ultimately endedup dissecting them, one would
think that would be a huge redflag.

Speaker 1 (10:38):
You would think, did he do it in secret?

Speaker 4 (10:40):
I don't see how he could have done it in secret,
because if it's known that he,this is something that he did,
and he had like, kind of thismenagerie of animals think
sometimes he even had more thanone at a time.
I think the, I don't know thisfor sure, but it seems like they
knew about it and they just lethim do it.
And then his brother Jeffrey wassaying that hadn't, didn't seem
like he had a sense of right andwrong from early on.

(11:02):
And he used an example that oncethey were riding bikes together
and they were trying to ridewithout using any hands and they
were doing that.
And then hadn't just reachedover and grabbed his handlebars
or veered into him and caused anaccident.
And when he asked hadn't forhelp, hadn't just turned around
and went home.
And when hadn't came in thehouse, he said, Oh, there's been
an accident, but don't worry.
The bike is okay.

(11:22):
Who, yeah, that's just, I thinkhow,

Speaker 1 (11:25):
Like a lack of being able to identify with somebody
else's pain or like lack ofempathy

Speaker 4 (11:29):
And the mom Flavio, she was really into, she was
really active in the PTAevidently and also boy Scouts,
but she also started to drinkvery heavily.
And her husband, it seemed likehe was pretty removed from at
least emotionally seemed like hewas pretty removed from the
family.
So she was taking Hadden backand forth to these doctor's
appointments to therapy.

(11:50):
And her husband just, he workeda lot.
He was a chemist, very, verysmart man.
I, by all accounts.
So him was just taking up somuch time that the other Clark
kids became jealous of himbecause they weren't getting the
attention that they needed.
And the sister, Alison, that shereacted to this by running away.
And she was actually placed in apsychiatric hospital for a

(12:11):
number of months and yearslater, she would describe when
talking about her upbringing,she basically felt like she
never had a family.
And I don't know if the, in the,in the sixties, if that's like a
thing, if you ran away fromhome, they would put you in a
psychiatric hospital.
I mean, you might know moreabout that.
Then

Speaker 1 (12:27):
My mom actually ran away from home at 15 and that
would have been in, that wouldhave been in the late fifties
and social services ended upworking with her and asked her
like, where do you want to go?
And she went to live with her,her aunt, but I don't know.
I've never heard that.
So, but that's, that's reallyinteresting.
It makes me wonder if like,because of the family history of
all the mental health issues,that's part of why they took it

(12:47):
out.

Speaker 4 (12:47):
It seems a possibility that there could
have been a lot more there evengoing on with her possibly.
So the reason I gave the birthorder of the children was
because Hadden's father, he, hisname was also Hadden.
His oldest brother, Brad, hismiddle name is Hatton.
So before Haddon was born, theyhad, we're talking about now,
his parents were expecting agirl and I don't know why, I

(13:09):
guess they just figured theyjust wanted one because of this
long line of Haddon's, but itended up being a boy and they
were disappointed.
And so disappointed that theyactually had picked out a name
for a girl.
If they had a girl in the namethe father had picked out was
Kristin.
So when he, when had, was born,they're disappointed because
he's a guy or because he's aboy.
And so the mom dressed him inpink dresses and frilly

(13:33):
underwear until he went toelementary school.
Yeah.
I mean, and his fatheralternated from calling retard
to Kristin, you know, you cantalk more about that later, why
that becomes an important, sohadn't his fondness of women's
underwear.
It continued throughout hislife.
One time he was mowing theneighbor's lawn and she caught

(13:54):
him or her husband caught him.
I've seen one account that shecaught him.
I saw another account.
It was the husband that he hadgotten into her room.
And she caught him wearing herturn night gown.
And there was also a peeping Tomincident that he was involved in
and his mom took him again tosee a psychologist or a
psychiatrist.
And they told her, don't worry.
You're well,

Speaker 1 (14:13):
Oh, he was around that time, Jen, he was at least
14.
That's a crazy thing.
I can't imagine, you know, apsychiatrist or a therapist
saying that today.
Like, well, don't worry aboutthat.
He'll grow out of looking inpeople's windows.

Speaker 4 (14:24):
And I didn't see the specifics of exactly what he had
done, but I guess PP in time,you just look through somebody's
window.
But so he was, he told the momthat, you know, that he would
grow out of it.
And I think too, that is kind ofinteresting cause his mom did
try to take him to get help atit, you know, at a number of
places.
But something about her seems alittle bit, a little bit off too

(14:46):
.
She started drinking veryheavily.
She became an alcoholic.
The father had problems withalcohol.
They fought frequently.
She often blamed hadn't directlyto his face of, you know, all
the problems that the family washaving blamed him for it.
So hadn't, he actually ended upgoing to like a culinary
Institute and it was a veryprestigious one.
I believe it was one in the CIA.
What does that stand mean?

(15:07):
It's not the CIA.
I know what you're talkingabout.

Speaker 1 (15:09):
Yeah.
Like the culinary Institute ofAmerica, I think.

Speaker 4 (15:12):
Yeah.
So it was very prestigious.
He didn't have a problem landinga job.
In fact, he, he got a job at arestaurant in Provincetown,
Massachusetts, but he didn'tlast very long there because of
the strange things that he woulddo.
And I think at one point headmitted to urinating into a VAT
of, of potatoes or that might'vebeen, that might've been another
job he had, but he was verystrange.

(15:34):
He really creeped people out atwork.
He was caught, they saidguzzling beef blonde that, yeah.
Yes.
And so he had a number of jobsgoing here and there, he even
worked for like a cruise lineand he even did ice sculptures
for the Olympics in 1980 in LakePlacid.
Like in that regard he wasaccomplished.
He was really skilled at what hewould do, but he just continued

(15:55):
to have problems.
So he goes into the military,into the Navy.
And I think the feeling in thefamily was that that would kind
of provide him a structure andmaybe straighten him out.
He didn't fare well in the Navyat all because he's in the
military and he's wearing likewomen's underwear and that sort
of thing.
Oh, well, yeah, that didn't goover very well at all.
So they, he ended up gettingbeaten up really, really badly

(16:16):
to the point where he's in thehospital.
So he was discharged honorablyin 1985 after being beaten.
And they had, at that time hadstated, you know, he had been
diagnosed with paranoidschizophrenia and that's the
first time I'd seen thatdiagnosis for him was then based
on the reading that I did andall the specialists he had seen.
I didn't see anything in thereabout paranoid schizophrenia

(16:38):
until, until the middle.

Speaker 1 (16:39):
I want to say I have my doubts about that diagnosis.
I mean, I don't know everythingthere is to know about having
Clark, but I think thatsometimes, you know, one, that's
a really serious diagnosis toput on someone.
And I think once you have adiagnosis, it becomes a label
and it follows you.
And so, you know, go to otherproviders, they don't know what
to diagnose.
And so, okay.
Let me just use the previousdiagnosis.
So I just really wonder aboutthat.

(17:00):
I mean, clearly I think he wasmore likely to have dissociative
identity disorder.
You know, he did mention somestuff that that would make me
make me think that, but just cancertainly some episodes of
psychosis, but so I don't know.
Maybe he did have that.
I just, I'm not, I'm not sold onit.

Speaker 4 (17:15):
It sounds like he could have had a many, many
things arrange of things.
So with his brother, the lastthing I'll add into his
upbringing, his brotherBradfield, he was considered, I
guess, the successful one or atleast at that time, I don't know
what his brother Jeffrey off thetop of my head or his, his
sister later went on to do, butBrad was considered to be very
handsome.

(17:35):
He excelled in school.
He actually got an MBA in 1976and he married in 1977.
The marriage didn't last thatlong.
They, they divorced like in theearly eighties and by the early
eighties, he was also his very,to getting this PhD in social
psychology, he was, what was itcalled?
Um, EBD, everything.
But dissertation think he gothis MBA, his MBA from, from

(17:59):
rider.
I'm not so sure about the PhDwhere he was working on that,
but he had moved to Californiaand he was hired as a software
specialist.
And when he was there, he metthis woman, he started dating
her and she ended up breaking upwith him like in 1984, it
doesn't sound like it was along, long relationship.
It just sounded like they datedfor a while.
And then she ended up breakingit off.
But the interesting thing is, isthat soon after she broke it off

(18:21):
with him, coworkers were sayingthat he started to act really
strangely and that he was reallyencouraging them to read this
book called Grendel.
Do you know what that is?
Have you heard of that?
It's a cult classic

Speaker 1 (18:31):
Grendel.
Yeah.
John Gardner, I think.

Speaker 4 (18:34):
Okay.
Yeah.
I'm not sure about who wrote itis Grendel, then it's called
Grendel and it's about a halfhuman half monster who is
unusually close to his motherand enjoys eating.

Speaker 1 (18:46):
That's fascinating.
Old Norse mythology.
Yeah.
Grendel's with the retelling ofBeowulf from the monster, his
point of view.

Speaker 4 (18:54):
Well, in 1984, he started to see another coworker.
She was married and they werekind of fooling around.
I mean, not like full on, butthere was some kissing and that
sort of thing.
And she was married and thecompany they were working for,
she and Brad were working for,it was going under.
And I don't know if she had leftat that point.
I think she had, one of them hadleft.
I think it was her.

(19:14):
She had left first and Brad hadinvited her and her husband over
for dinner and he invited herand knowing that her husband had
been very busy and I think hewas often out of town.
So I think he was just kind ofhoping that they could be alone.
And he was right.
Um, the coworker's name isPatricia Mac.
So he has her over her husbanddoesn't come and sounds like
they had a nice night by allaccounts.

(19:35):
He was really lamb and there'vebeen a lot of drinking and I
think he had started off withbeer.
Then he started drinking scotch.
Then he moved on to Keanu, likeHannibal, I was going to ask you
doesn't that sound like you'retalking about lamb.
Kianta I think they got it from,I wouldn't be surprised if they
didn't kind of lift that.
Yep.
That's crazy.

(19:55):
So, yeah.
So they having, it sounds likethey were having a nice night.
I think he lived like in a condoor an apartment and they went
downstairs by the pool.
Then they came back up to theapartment again and then they
started making out and he endedup biting her nipple off.
And so, yeah, and I won't go toomuch into it, but so he ended up
doing that.
Of course she screams and likeslaps him and then he starts

(20:18):
beating her up and he ends upkilling her and he cuts one of
her breasts off and he grills itand he eats part of it.
And the, the police later camelooking for her, like the next
day her car was there and Ithink he waited another 24 hours
and then he just confessed tothe police and he really didn't
know why he did it.
And he just couldn't explainreally why he did it other than,

(20:40):
you know, he bit her and sheslapped him and I guess he
became angry and then he killedher.
And then, but he just reallydidn't seem like he had really
an explanation at all for like,he could provide any type of
insight really into hisbehavior.

Speaker 1 (20:50):
Or even like you had mentioned earlier, like as a
kid, he was quick to anger, butso I can see if he snapped and
killed her, but it's a wholeother thing to like cut off a
body part and eat it.
Right.
That takes, it's just like awhole other level of pathology.
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (21:06):
So that is, those are the basics of his upbringing.
Again, I got most of thisinformation or if not, all of it
from the book, born evil, a truestory of cannibalism and serial
murder by Adrian Havel.
And that's in 2001.
And there's also another articleI believe, published in the new
Yorker.
It's called a hole in the groundby Alec Wilkinson.

(21:26):
And that's a good article too.
So I am going to turn it over toyou.

Speaker 1 (21:30):
So, um, like Jen, I also relied on a lot on the
book, born evil by Adrian Havel.
And I went to a site calledMurderpedia.
Then I also had several articlesfrom different newspapers.
So that was, that was reallyhelpful.
Um, so what I want to do is talkabout a couple of, well, really
the main, the main two crimes,the crimes that were proven that

(21:51):
Hadden Clark committed, and thenwe'll talk about, you know,
their speculation, which he hasreally given rise to himself,
that he may be killed a lot morepeople than, than the two that
we know about.
Um, so the first murder I wantto talk about is the murder of
Michelle DOR, which occurred onMay 31st, 1986, by all accounts.
It was a really hot day.

(22:11):
You know, it was, I guess that'sright around Memorial day when
you think about it, but summerhad come early.
Um, so, so people were out justkind of having fun.
I think it was a Saturday, but,um, don't quote me on that.
Hadn't had actually been livingin an upstairs room and his
brother Jeff's home.
And I don't know if you've gotthis feeling, Jen, but I
definitely got the sense thatJeff was relatively normal, that

(22:32):
he was going to be the mostfunctional.
A lot of everybody in thatfamily, I don't know much about
the daughter Alice

Speaker 4 (22:37):
In the book, it talks about he had a really nasty
divorce and there wereallegations of child abuse.
It looks like with the, perhapswith the, with the child abuse,
there was some merit to thatbecause I believe some daycare
providers or something had seenhim be abusive towards his kins.
Okay.
But it looked like that thechildren, their children, or

(22:58):
Jeffrey's children were troubledas well.

Speaker 1 (23:00):
Interesting that you bring that up because I read
that actually the reason tohadn't he was hadn't was living
at Jeff's house, but Jeff toldhim he had to get out.
And the reason that he hadn'thad to leave was he, Jeff had
discovered that he was actuallymasturbating in front of his
kids.
So it sounds like there was somesexual stuff going on there.
So this was, I think he had, waspacking up his stuff on May 31st

(23:23):
or he had basically gotteneverything out.
And this was his last day at thehouse.
So I want to sort of cut tolittle Michelle door, who was
only six years old.
And her parents had had a reallytroubled marriage.
They were, they had this reallyacrimonious, nasty divorce.
Her dad's name was Carl, butthey were in, they would fight
in front of her.
And I think that Carl, um, thedad would, would beat her

(23:46):
mother.
And so like this poor littlelamb, like at six years old, you
know, she had seen, seen so manyawful things, but I also read
that her parents, even thoughthey hated each other, they
really loved her.
And so she seemed to have atleast a lot of affection from
them.
So that weekend she was spendingtime with her dad, Carl, he had
custody custody of her on theweekends.
And because it was so hot thatday, he told her, you know, I'm

(24:08):
going to fill up your littleswimming pool.
And then later in the afternoon,around four o'clock, I'll take
you to the public pool and we'llgo swimming.
So she's wearing this littlepink ruffled bathing suit.
And she goes out to play in herpool.
And her dad, meanwhile, isinside.
I think he's drinking beer andwatching NASCAR.
So sounds like that soundsfamiliar from the place I come
from.
That's pretty much what peopledo on a Saturday.

(24:30):
So that's what he's doing.
And he goes out and checks onher later and he doesn't see
her, but he doesn't really getthat worried.
And then later around five orfive 30, he's like, where is
where's Michelle?
You know?
So he goes and looks for her.
It turns out that littleMichelle, she got bored playing
by herself.
So this kids do, she just wentdown the street and one of her

(24:50):
friends was Jeff's kid a lot.
His name was Eliza.
So she was looking for herlittle friend, Eliza, but Eliza
wasn't there.
So Michelle runs into two HaddenClark and I wouldn't own it back
up and give like a little, justa little backstory fact, that's
going to be important, Eliza.
I'm not sure how old she was,but I'm assuming she was
probably around Michelle's age.
So anywhere between like six andeight or nine or something like

(25:14):
that earlier that week, Elizahad called Hatton or retard.
And apparently that maid had anextremely angry and I've heard
that people talk about revengeas a motivation in, in both of
the murders that we know thathadn't committed, both Michelle
and, um, Laura, who we'll get toin a little bit.
So just kind of keep that in theback of your mind.
So Michelle comes up to Haddonand it's like, Oh, you know, it

(25:35):
was Eliza there.
I mean, I wanna, can she comeout and play?
And Haddon's like, we'll just goon in the house.
She's upstairs playing with herdolls.
So, um, Michelle does that andshe goes upstairs.
Meanwhile, Hadden, who is Jenexplained, was working as a chef
or a sous chef, goes to the backof his truck and he's got, and
this just, both, this creeps meout so bad.
He's got this big box of knivesand he's got like, you know,

(25:57):
like a meat mallet and adeboning knife and like every
kind of chef knife that you canimagine.
And so he, he grabs some knivesand he heads upstairs and he, he
murders Michelle and it's areally brutal murder.
It's a stabbing.
I think he slit her throat.
There were just multipleinjuries.
So, so hadn't started cleaningup really quickly because he has
to be at his job at the Chevychase country club in 20

(26:19):
minutes.
And he's smart enough to know.
I mean, I don't think he's astupid guy.
He's smart enough to know thatif he is late for work, that's
going to be, that could impactan alibi or something like that.
So he goes really quickly.
He stuffs Michelle's body into aduffel bag and then stoves her
in his truck and he goes to workand he works his entire shift
with this little six year oldbody in the back of his truck.

(26:41):
Now, one thing Michelle was, shewas a fighter.
She did not want to die.
And during the attack, she bithim on his hand.
And this part really gets me.
So after, after work, his handis really hurting him.
And he stops after work at theVA hospital for treatment and
gets his hand taken care of.
Now, I don't know why in thename of God, they wouldn't have

(27:01):
noticed that this was a biteMark.
And it, that looked like it wasfrom a child's mouth, but
apparently nobody, nobody saidanything about that.
After he gets his hand takencare of, he gets in his truck
and he drives towards Baltimoreon the old Columbia pike.
And he, he digs a shallow gravein the North point branch stream
Valley park.
I don't know are either of youfamiliar with that?
Like I've driven around my area,but I don't remember that part.

Speaker 2 (27:25):
I used to live in Montgomery County.
I don't know Columbia pike, butI don't, I don't know that part.

Speaker 1 (27:30):
Yeah.
That's familiar to me like thename, at least I'm sure I've
driven on it at some point.
So he, he, he digs this shallowgrave.
Um, and it's about 12 miles fromwhere she was murdered.
And before he buries her, he She says later that he eats some
of her flesh.
There are some other accountswhere he said he drank some of
her blood, but he, he consumedsome part of her.
And I did read, um, and I can'tsay that I know where this quote

(27:53):
comes from, but he had toldsomeone, I think it was an
investigator, a detective they'dasked him why he kills women.
And this is a quote, but I can'tsource it.
He says, I thought if I drankthe blood of women, it would
transform me into a woman.
I wanted to become the girls andwomen I killed, which gives you,
I think, gives you a lot ofinsight into what's going on in
his head, even though it makesabsolutely no sense.

(28:14):
So Michelle's father Carl, hesoon becomes the lead suspect
because investigators always sayit's like, usually it's usually
the family member.
So it's the father, the mother,and they they're really
pressuring him hard.
And you know, they'reinterviewing him and he ends up
having a psychotic break and hestarts to think that, okay, if I
find my daughter, if she's dead,I'll be able to bring her back
to life.

(28:34):
And then his next conclusion isthat means I must be Jesus.
So he starts referring tohimself as the white Messiah.
I mean, this is, you can't makethis stuff up.
It's crazy.
And he ends up confessing to hispsychiatrist that he had killed
his daughter.
He was brought in forquestioning numerous times, but
from what I could find, he wasnever charged, but he remained,
he remained a suspect untilHaddon was eventually discovered

(28:58):
to have murdered Michelle.
And I'm going to get to thatbecause this story takes a lot
of twists and turns her murderwould go and solve for the next
14 years.
And it would take the murder ofanother person.
Her name is Laura huddling, whowas, who was not a young, well,
she was a young girl, but not achild.
She was 23 years old.
And she had just recently,really just recently graduated

(29:19):
from Harvard.
She was considered brilliant andbeautiful by her friends.
She was six feet tall andblonde, and just like drop dead,
gorgeous, and really, reallysmart.
One of her friends said that shethought she was going to be
president one day.
Her friend thought that abouther.
So after college graduation,Laura comes home to live with
her mother, whose name is penny.
Penny's a psychotherapist.

(29:39):
And they live in Bethesda,Maryland.
Now, penny just sounded like areally nice person to me.
The mom, because she hiredhadn't is a gardener through
this organization that placedhomeless people in jobs.
And she gave hadn't a lot ofchances.
And she, you know, is she beganto trust him more.
She gave him certain privileges.
So she said, you know, Hey, youcan come on in, in the kitchen

(29:59):
and make coffee for yourself.
Or if you need to use thebathroom, you can use the
bathroom when I'm not here.
Like you can come on in thehouse and stuff like that.
And hadn't really kind of tookadvantage of that.
So he started stealing from her,but it was stuff like jewelry,
underwear, the clothes that shewore was really stuff that I
think that he was just longing,he was longing to wear.
And that he thought was prettyprobably.

(30:21):
So he took that stuff and thenhe stole some tools.
And I don't, I don't really knowwhy he did that, but penny did
confront him about that and hedenied it.
But I think this, it anchoredhadn't that he was confronted
that she would think badly ofhim because, you know, like I
said, she was a really niceperson and he started to think
of her almost as a motherfigure.
So they, you know, he almostsaid they got close, but it's

(30:42):
not like, you know, she thoughthe was her son, but he, he did
kind of think like, Oh, you'remy mom.
Like, you're the most reliableperson in my life right now.
I read that it's sad.
It's just really, really sad.
And it feels like it's just allthe set up for this perfect
tragedy to happen.
So penny tells Hatton she'sgoing off to a conference and
it's a shame that she told himthat.

(31:03):
And she probably told him, so hewouldn't come, or he would know
that she wouldn't be around.
And I read that because he feltso close to penny and he felt
like her child, when Laura camehome from college, he got really
jealous and he felt like Laurawas kind of taking his place.
So there are some theories thathe decides to go after Laura to
kill her because he presents her.
And if you think about that, tome, that strikes me as like

(31:25):
really childish kind of revenge.
A kid might think about in achildish way, like when they're
eight or nine, but you know, foran adult man to be thinking that
way is just really strange.
But if you think about hisupbringing, you know, as you
explained to us, you know, he,he was probably, I don't wanna,
I don't want a psycho therapizehim or anything like that.
But I imagine that he, hismental age, at least emotionally

(31:48):
was probably much younger thathe was stuck in a much earlier
stage of development thanadulthood.
So anyway, um, he goes out andhe prepares for this murder and
he goes to hardwood or hardwarestore.
He goes to a hardware store andhe buys rope and duct tape.
And this is crazy.
So he writes a check for hispurchases on the memo line.
He writes the word, Laura, canyou believe that?

(32:11):
It's just like, I don't evenwrite stuff on the memo line of
my checks.
Now, if I'm going to commit amurder, I'm definitely not going
to write anything on the memoline.
Like who's organized enough todo that.
First of all, and who, you know,who, who would do that?
So Laura, she, I think she hadhad like a job or an internship
or something.
And so she goes to bed prettyearly.
Hadden takes his truck anddrives to the house around

(32:33):
midnight.
And he gets the keys.
He always had the keys to thehouse were in the shed in case
he like, you know, he wanted tomake coffee or go to the
bathroom.
So he has the keys he's able toget into, into the house.
And he goes up to her bedroomand he confronts her with a gun.
And the scene is just, it'sawful.
Like I read that he forced herto, to undress and take a bath.

(32:53):
He makes her, it's almost like aritualistic type thing.
He makes her lay on the bed andhe ties her up and does all of
this stuff.
And then eventually he kills herby suffocating her.
And I think she was stabbed aswell.
So this poor woman, like shejust endured, endured hours of
torture.
He finally, you know, it's stilldark of night.
So he loads her body in histruck and he goes back into the

(33:13):
house to sleep in her bed thenext morning.
Um, it was, the sun is comingup.
He leaves the house and he'sdressed as a woman.
And I should've mentioned, Ithink he entered the house
dressed as a woman as well.
And then maybe change clothes.
I would be surprised if youwere, did he?
Okay, can you, can you say moreabout that, Jim?

Speaker 3 (33:32):
He entered the house, wearing a wig and I think some
of her clothing and kept, keptsaying, call me Laura.
Wow.

Speaker 1 (33:39):
So he kind of w he w he was wearing the mom's
clothing.

Speaker 3 (33:42):
He was wearing some of her clothing that he'd
stolen.
I could be wrong, but I know hewas definitely telling them,
telling her to call him LauraJesus.
And when he started putting theduct tape on her face, her
struggling made him excited.
And he started duct tape in themorning.
He wound up mama, find her facealmost with the duct tape.
And she smothered to death.

(34:03):
That's awful.
And I think his, um, she wasstruggling.
He realized, you know what, he'ddone.
He tried to cut the duct tapeoff and he wound up cutting her
throat a little bit with thescissors.
And then he tried taking herearrings as a souvenir, and he
couldn't get the, I think it wasthe right one out.
So he clipped off her ear lobewith the scissors.

(34:25):
Was she dead by that point?
She had smothered to death bythat point.
Okay,

Speaker 1 (34:29):
Great.
Thank God.
I mean, not that, you know, Iwant her to be dead, but I just,
it just seems like all thattorture after that, I just can't
imagine being alive and feelingsomebody cut your ear lobe off,
you know?

Speaker 3 (34:38):
Well, and he kept a souvenir from this.
One of the souvenirs he kept wasa bloody pillow case.
And that's, that's what that's,what did it meant?

Speaker 1 (34:46):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And we'll get to that shortly,but thank you.
That's so it's, so he went intothe house to commit the murder,
dressed, dressed as a woman.
And then the next morning he, heleft.
So maybe he like put on adifferent outfit or something,

Speaker 3 (34:57):
Any brushed her Rusty's wig with her brush

Speaker 1 (35:00):
God.
So it's like, he reallyidentified with Laura.
Like he wanted, like, he wantedto be her.
He wanted to possess her orenter into her.
And in the sense that like, andthen he would be the, the
rightful daughter, right.
He'd be the beloved kid.
There's so much psychosexualstuff going on in here.
It's like, it's not even funny.
But, um, so a witness, there wasa lady who, I think she worked

(35:21):
as a housekeeper and she wasstanding out with one of the
kids.
Um, they were waiting at the busstop to go to school and she saw
Laura quote, Laura leaving.
But of course it wasn't Laura.
It was, um, it was Hatton andshe just thought, Oh, Laura is
leaving for her job.
He must have looked prettyconvincing.
I mean, he's kind of a slightguy, isn't he?
Can you say a little bit aboutwhat he, what he looks like Jim,

(35:41):
because to me, he looked likenot, not like a muscly guy.
Like I think I could see himputting on women's clothes and
kind of getting up.

Speaker 3 (35:47):
He was a thin build.
He was a little bit taller thanme.
Um, I'm five 11.
So he was probably six, one ishsomewhere there.

Speaker 1 (35:56):
And that's interesting because Laura was
six foot, which is unusual for awoman, but so he was about her
height.
So I think he could pass prettywell, especially if maybe if he
didn't see him right up close.
Anyway, he, he goes around withher body for a while in his, in
his truck.
So he buries her the next nightoff of I two 70 and I'm wonder
exactly where, cause I used todrive that road.
I used to go to shady Grove upin Rockville for some of my

(36:19):
graduate classes.
And so I was always on two 70,which is a of a road.
Um, but I just wonder where thatwas.
So he gets really nervous and hedrives, he decides to get in his
truck and drive North to newEngland.
And along the way, he, he renteda self storage locker somewhere.
I'm not sure what state this wasin, but he puts the items that
he stole from penny and Laura'shouse in there, including the

(36:41):
bloody sheets from the murder,but the pillow case, for some
reason, he ends up throwing thepillow case in a wooded area,
which I presume, I don't know ifyou know anything about this gym
.
I presume it was like close toLaura's grave.
Like where he buried.

Speaker 3 (36:53):
No, actually he kept it as a souvenir and slept with
it.
And yeah, I remember he lived ina tent in the woods and I think
during the time that he wasmurdering her, he confessed to
saying something like, you know,I'm going to take you to the
woods to meet the real Hadden.
Oh my God.
They found a fingerprint on apillow.
Hey, so I never thought shecould get a fingerprint from a

(37:14):
pillow case, but evidently theyfound the pillow case with her
blood on it and his fingerprint.
And that's what did amend onthat.

Speaker 1 (37:21):
That's so interesting.
That was the one little thing heoverlooked.
I just want to ask you whilewe're kind of circling around
this, this issue.
I mean, do you really, do youthink, cause you you've
interacted with him.
Do you think that he really didthink that he was Laura in that,
that this was all going on withhim?
Or do you think that was a ruse?
That, what do you think aboutall that?

Speaker 3 (37:40):
You know, honestly, I don't know what to think.
You know, back, back then I wasfairly new to corrections.
This was over 20 years ago.
Um, he, he was never what Iwould call batshit crazy, you
know, sorry for

Speaker 1 (37:52):
All the time on the show,

Speaker 3 (37:53):
He seemed very high functioning to me, you know?
Um, I I've dealt with a lot ofmental health patients over the
years and I mean, some of themare just way out there.
He never presented any kind ofpsychosis.
He did weird things, but henever, if you looked at him,
you'd, you'd be like, yeah,there's something wrong with
this guy, but you couldn't quiteput your finger on it.

(38:15):
And I think it was for me,mostly for him, it was his eyes.
He just had this up look in hiseyes.
He is like, he was looking atyou, but he wasn't

Speaker 1 (38:23):
To me, when I look at his picture online, they look
kind of empty, like kind ofthey're dark eyes.
And they look to me like they'resort of bottomless pools.
Like you can't really, he hasblue on blue.
They look Brown me.
I

Speaker 3 (38:36):
Remember him being a pale shade of blue, but they're,
they're definitely blue.
And just, it was like he waslooking at you, but it was not
like he was recognizing you as,um, as something that mattered
to him.
You know, you were just kindathere.

Speaker 4 (38:52):
I could see where you think his eyes were maybe Brown
or something gem because in somepictures I looked in, you could
see that they are, they lookvery blue to me and others I'll
have to look around again.
Yeah.
That's interesting.
I mean, I think both color eyescan end up looking empty.
You know, if, if you've got thatlook like I know Jen and I
haven't experienced with oneperson who we won't name, but
Jen was like, this person iscrazy.

(39:14):
I'm like, no, I think they'rejust socially awkward.
Well, John was a right.
Cause she always is.
She can like read people muchbetter than I can, but
especially the crazy people.
And it crazy when I see what youwould truly like, you would look
in this person's eyes and theywould be like, there would be
nothing there.
It was so creepy, but kind oflike what you're saying, gem,
like if you think about theperson that we're talking about,
Jen, he would, he was looking atyou, but he wasn't.

(39:35):
And maybe, I don't know what'sgoing on.
Like maybe he's thinking he'sjust sort of paying more
attention to like the stimuli inhis head, you know, like what's
going on in his head.
I don't know.

Speaker 3 (39:44):
Don't ever really remember any of the therapists
talking about him.
Um, you know, this was waybefore HIPAA.
So I don't remember any of thetherapists ever talk about him
hearing voices or, or anythinglike that.
And the times that I was in themental health unit, I didn't
work at very often because wehad a specialized team that
worked at.
So I was just there to providemeal breaks.
Or if somebody was on vacation,I'd get assigned there for a

(40:06):
shifter two, but he never, hewas probably one of the Tamer
ones of the bunch, you know, hewas fairly, fairly tame.

Speaker 4 (40:13):
Did he have his own cell or did he share with
somebody else?
Both.
Okay.

Speaker 3 (40:18):
I think when we first got him, he was celled by
himself, but then as we movedmore acute people in there, you
get assigned different levels.
Level one is the absolute worst.
You're self destructive.
You're just gone level two.
You're certain, you know,adjusting your medication three
and four, get more privileges.
And he was pretty much a levelfour almost the entire time he

(40:38):
was there.

Speaker 4 (40:39):
What kind of privileges would he get?
You just got,

Speaker 3 (40:41):
Well, first of all, you weren't locked in your cell
24 hours a day and come out forjust a shower.
Yeah.
He was out, you know, the entiretime of the day, you know, he
got full rec room privileges.
He could play checkers or cardsor dominoes or whatever you
wanted to do.

Speaker 4 (40:57):
Okay.
I don't know if this is when hewas at your facility, Jim, but
when, um, Adrian Havel wasinterviewing for this book,
Adrian's a man assuming he is,but I don't, I don't know.
Maybe he's Laura, I'm sorry.
That was terrible joke.
I actually, um, took down thisparagraph, that in his book

(41:18):
about a description of head andhis state of line, at least, I
guess when he would go tointerview him sometimes.
So this is like a paragraph andthis really freaks me out.
So Hafele says, um, quote, hesaid he is rarely in his right
mind these days.
You can that today, just byperiod at his cell, hadn't taken
the sausage links that came withhis breakfast tray and suspended

(41:39):
them from dental floss in thewindow of a cell to age, he
imagined himself, a Hunter and acampsite or winter is coming and
there could be a food shortagewhen he is cured and dried this
meat with this shriveled sausagebecoming furry with mold, he
will caucus head to the side asif a baby bird about to receive
a warm from its mother had Mollyat one of the Brown casings,
snapping the brittle tubes inhalf with his teeth and eating

(42:02):
as an afternoon.

Speaker 3 (42:03):
I never saw anything like that.
No, no.

Speaker 4 (42:07):
Well, he, this guy was, well, this author is saying
that he would do all sorts ofinteresting things with food.
Like he would just take it andhide it.
Like he would take, uh, agrapefruit peeling and kind of,
um,

Speaker 3 (42:18):
Well you see that a lot with homeless people.
Um, you know, at the jailthey'll stash food away.
And of course, you know, when wego in, we're trying to keep the
cockroaches and the ants andfruit flies down and you go in
and you've got like pieces offruit that are rotten and we go
to take it from it and they getmad at ya.
Cause you know how I'm gonna eatthat later.
It's still good.
No, it's not.

(42:38):
But then their mind, it, it, itstill is.
So I, you know, that kind ofbehavior doesn't surprise me.
I see that quite a bit.
Uh, and that's, and that's moreof a homeless behavior than it
is a, like a mental health issuebehavior, I guess.

Speaker 4 (42:52):
I wonder too though, like he, cause you said
gentlemen, he was a kid.
He used to like trap.
He used to trap animals andwell, but you said he never went
camping with his dad.
So I just wondered if thatalmost seems like a, besides the
homeless thing, it could besomething that a kid sort of
imagined, you know, kids play atthat.
And um, but yeah, the homelessthing makes a lot of sense.
Yeah.
It just seems like he goes fromlike one weird idea to another

(43:17):
and would, this was going onthis XR that I was reading it's
like in the first 15, 16 pagesof the book.
And um, that's when he, whereverhe was staying, he had a cell
mate or a guy that was besidehim that he thought was,

Speaker 3 (43:31):
Yeah, that's when he was in state doc.
And for when he got sentencedfor the, the Laura huts,

Speaker 4 (43:38):
Was that after you knew him, Jim,

Speaker 3 (43:40):
He had, I started in late 96 and I think he had
either just left or going justbefore upstate, before I had
gotten there.
Cause I, I had heard the nameand while he was up there, I
guess his cellmate convinced himthat he was Jesus and you'll,
you'll, you'll see a lot of thiskind of behavior in, in prison.
If they can one guy I'll try andget somebody to tell his crimes,

(44:02):
especially if they're in therefor petty and they're doing five
or six years and you can get aguy that's doing 25 or more and
he's got more information thatthe police want, you know,
they'll, they'll sniff them outand try and cut a deal.
So, and the guy had like longhair and a beard, you know, he
kind of looked like Jesus.
So hadn't started confessingthings to him and he confessed
to the door murder and that'swhen they rearrested him and

(44:25):
brought him back.
They tried to get him to pleadto the door murder, I think, uh,
during the Laura Hartling trial.
Cause they, they had anindication and you talked about
the father having a psychoticbreak.
What screwed the father and whatmade the police look so hard at
him is the timelines weren'tmatching up.
Hadn't Clark clocked in at thecountry club.

(44:46):
He punched his card at two 46.
Well, the father Carl was atCarl door.
Oh, I guess he didn't want toseem like a bad parent.
And like you said, you know, I'mdrinking beer, watching NASCAR
and not paying attention to mykids.
So the timeline that he gave wassaying that, you know, he saw
her at this time and hadn'tClark punch in at two 46.

(45:08):
There wasn't enough time for himto commit the murder and get to
work.
So something along those linesscrewed it up.
And even though, you know, theywere interviewing them and they
were putting the press on themand they actually slapped up a
picture of Michelle door down.
I knew the detective and um,they were saying, what'd you do
with her?
What'd you do with her?
And he was puking who hadn'tparked

Speaker 1 (45:29):
The dad.
Okay.
But he would never say anything.
So you were saying that you knewthe, um, one of the detectives,
is it Varney?

Speaker 3 (45:37):
Oh, it's been so long.
I used to see him in the CPU allthe time.
What's the CPU centralprocessing unit.
Um, basically we started aprogram where the police would
bring us through arrestees andwhile they're upstairs doing the
probable cause paperwork andstatement of charges, we're,
we're the ones handling all thebooking.
So we're doing the photographsor searching all that.

(45:59):
So that helps get them back outon the street faster.
And that's, that's something we,

Speaker 1 (46:03):
I hadn't, he's only at like how long was he at your
facility?
And then I guess, is he there,like while he's awaiting trial
and then he goes onto somethingmore permanent?
Is that how it works?

Speaker 3 (46:14):
He'd been arrested several times.
Uh, he'd been arrested for pettytheft.
He'd been arrested for amalicious destruction of
property in a County facility inMaryland.
You can only do 18 monthssentenced anything more than 18
months of state doc time.
However, by the time that someof these more complicated cases

(46:34):
are, are going through andyou're getting the mental
evaluations and, you know,delays a trial and everything,
sometimes it can be two, two anda half years before somebody
finally goes to court.
And he came to us around when Iwas there around 98 and left
early 2000 late 99, early 2000.
So he'd been with us for awhile,but he was already sentenced to

(46:57):
state doc time on one murder.

Speaker 1 (46:59):
And that was Laura huddling.
Yeah.
Cause he had pled guilty.
I think the second degree murderbefore her body was found.
And then he was sentenced tolike 30 years in 1993.
Yeah.
And then I think after like justshortly after sentencing, he led
police

Speaker 3 (47:12):
Well after the Jesus thing, that's when he started
leading, leading people to leadthe police to the two bodies.

Speaker 1 (47:19):
Can I read the G Jesus would have to accompany
him sometimes.
Is that true?

Speaker 3 (47:24):
Uh, and he had to have, um, women's underwear in a
wig and uh, they, uh, I thinkthat was up in Connecticut.

Speaker 1 (47:30):
I mean, there's something about Hatton Clark
that reminds me of Norman Bates.
You know, the dressing up is

Speaker 3 (47:35):
Norman Bates and there's a lot of silence of the
lambs in there too.
Cause Buffalo bill wanted to bea woman

Speaker 1 (47:41):
That's right.
It was, was it a kind of gainwho I never know if it's gain or
GYN?
I think it was, it was a gain edgain who, um, who I think they
did based on Norman Bates on, hewould make skin suits out of
women, um, and wear them.
And Jen, can you speak to alittle bit about, um, gender and
yeah.
You have a background a littlebit and you can speak to gender

(48:03):
transgender difference between,you know, I mean, it's hard to
say.
I mean, when I think about, um,from the little bit I know about
Hadden Clark and I think aboutall of the disruptions in his
development from early on, hedoesn't strike me as someone who
was truly transgender in, in anormal way.
Of course being trans is like areal thing.

(48:24):
And you know, some people areborn or just kind of born in the
bodies that don't match ourgender identity.
Hadn't doesn't strike me aboutlike that so much.
Um, he strikes me more like hewas, it was about wish
fulfillment.
He was trying to be what thisreally important figure in his
life his mother wanted him to beand he could never, you know, he
can never really do that.

(48:45):
And so it's this urge or thisneed, this need for maternal
affection does never, it's neverrealized.
And so he keeps, he keeps on it,it escalates and it becomes, so
that's kind of my, my take onit.
But you know, again, I haven'tinterviewed him.
I haven't sat down with him.
I, but he doesn't strike me assomeone who is transgender and

(49:05):
in like a normal way, if thatmakes sense.

Speaker 3 (49:07):
I remember him having some sort of alter ego where he
called himself, like lady blue,feather or lady blue fin or some
like that.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (49:16):
Kristen Brusa and that's what he went by.
Christian.
What's funny you say thatbecause there is this quote I
have from him.
And let me just see if I canfind it.
I read that he told one of hisdoctors that he, he said, this
is a quote.
I think I have a splitpersonality.
I don't like to hurt people, butI do things I'm not aware of.
And I think dissociativeidentity disorder actually makes
, uh, makes a lot of sense forhim that maybe he did become

(49:36):
someone else.
And then he committed thesecrimes.
He loses a time and doesn'treally know what he's done.
Well, Jesus said something thatwas really interesting and
creepy.
He was saying that hadn't, Iguess he wore glasses or neat.
Or at that time he wore glassesor needed contacts.
I'm not sure, but when he becameChristian, he didn't need them
because Kristen was younger.

(49:58):
I think that's more evidencethat he really did have time.

Speaker 3 (50:00):
No, I don't ever recall him wearing glasses
because you know, at the jail,if you, you know, we provide
everything.
So if he needed glasses, he he'dget the basic set of birth
control glasses.
Like you get in the military.

Speaker 1 (50:12):
Yeah.
I just wonder if he, if this wasat a later time.

Speaker 3 (50:15):
Well, he was getting old too.
He was born in 52.

Speaker 1 (50:19):
Yeah.
Um, I just want to follow up orjust kind of give him, well,
maybe we already gave someconclusion to Michelle door's
murder, but I did read, it waspartly mitochondrial DNA from
the blood that was on thefloorboards in the room where he
killed her, that also helped,you know, link him to the car.

Speaker 3 (50:35):
I think, uh, once they, um, once they got away
from the father being a suspectand started at zero and a hat
and Clark that's when they wentin and did the blood samples in
the room and you were, you weretalking about, you know, I hate
to be graphic about it, but youwere talking about the details.
He basically, as soon as he wentup in the room with her, he
grabbed her around by the mouthand she bit him and he spun her

(50:57):
around and slashed her acrossthe chest and then slashed her
another way.
It was almost like a Zorropattern.
And I can't remember if shestarted to scream or not.
And then he stabbed her throat.
So there was a lot of blood.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (51:11):
The poor little thing I did read.
And I wanted to mention this,that penny, you know, Laura's
mom did not believe that hadn'tcould possibly have done it.
She said something like, Oh,well he's only a gardener.
He couldn't have done that.
Um, so she really trusted him.
And I don't know.
I mean, there's a lot, that'sscary about this case, but I
think, I think it was thatmurder of Laurel huddling maybe.
Cause I can identify with a 23year old woman.

(51:33):
I'm a little closer to that thanI am being six again.
But just the idea of, you know,this person who you've kind of
led into your orbit, um, astranger, but you, you trust
them.
And that, that could end likethat.
It's just, it's like somethingout of a horror movie.
I mean, it, it really is.
I wonder, I wanted to ask youwhen you, when you're working
with people and you know, theirhistory, so, you know, like the

(51:54):
horrible things they've done in,in some cases you probably know
a lot about the details of whatthey've done.
Is it hard to kind of put thattogether with the person who's
in front of you?
Because I'll just say like I'veworked with in a different, in a
different way, like as atherapist with some people
who've committed crimes.
And it's always hard for me toput, to like link that history
of what a person's done with theperson who's sitting, usually a

(52:15):
mild-mannered person sitting infront of me in a chair.

Speaker 3 (52:17):
So basically I'm looking at him and going, Oh no,
this person never could havedone that.

Speaker 1 (52:22):
Do you ever feel like that?
Or be like, this just doesn't,it doesn't fit somehow.

Speaker 3 (52:26):
I don't, I don't think I ever have.
Um, I've always been an err onthe side of caution person and
we always dressed, treateverybody the same way and I try
not to learn people's charges,but you know, some are so famous
that you just can't help it likethe DC snipers and the rest of
them.
But for the most part, as longas you stay out of my orbit,
don't cause any problems I leaveyou alone, you leave me alone.

(52:49):
And I just tried to interactwith them because I, you know,
and some of them are prettycharming and they'll start
asking, you know, you know, you,you okay, you feeling okay today
or, you know, and they'regathering information on you and
that's something that you gotta,you gotta realize.
So I try not to interact withthem personally.
Although there are some guysthat I've known, I call it doing

(53:10):
life on the installment planwhere they're doing 12 months
here, six months there, 19months here.
And I've known them my entirecareer for 24 years.
I've been seeing these dumbmasses come in, in and out on
petty all the time.
So yeah, I do get to know someof them on a personal level, but
they're not on that.
The Hadden Clark level or themurder incorporated DC snipers

(53:32):
or

Speaker 1 (53:33):
Yeah, I'm speaking of the DC snipers.
I noticed that a name thatpopped out to me was that, you
know, when Hadden Clark finallyrevealed where Michelle's
remains were, um, chief moose atthat time, he was Montgomery
County police chief made a, madea remark that, you know, this
was finally able to give thefamily closure.
And I was like, Oh, chief moves.
I remember him from seeing himon TV from the DC sniper case.

(53:54):
He seemed like such a good guy.
He was a hot mess.
I remember that distinctly, Iguess anybody in this area, what
I was telling Jim, or that I wasliving in Rochester, New York at
the time, but it was, it wasnational.
I mean, I was just glued to theTV about that would just like,
you know, getting your gas, justlike doing a dance.
Like

Speaker 3 (54:12):
It's funny.
I, I looked like I was on soultrain and getting gas cause I
was constantly moving shuck andjive and ducking

Speaker 1 (54:22):
Gentlemen, Jen, I wanted to ask you about, I know
it was asking you to speak tosomeone being transgender or
whatever, but if you could justalso touch on like cross
dressing, because I think, Ithink people get confused, like
cross dressing necessarily beingto be in transgender.
Right?
I mean, trans yeah.
It's two different things.
Does it mean you're trans if youcross for us when you're trans

(54:42):
you're not cross-dressingbecause you're dressing
according to the gender that youare, right.
Like if I'm a trans man, likeI'm dressing like a man, because
I'm a man, you know, but yeah.
Cross dressing is really, it's adifferent thing.
So cross dressing used to beconsidered in the DSM.
The, it was considered like aparaphilia.
I think I don't, hopefully it'snot considered that anymore.

(55:03):
I haven't looked at my ideas.
I'm five lately, but I'm surethat it's not.
So cross dressing is, um, justwhen you enjoy wearing clothing,
the opposite gender, theopposite sex.
Um, so unrelated, unrelated tobeing trans typically.
I mean, if you think about it,we want to dress in a way that,
you know, that aligns with, withour gender identification.

(55:23):
Although I, I would wear nothingbut t-shirts and flannel shirts
lately.
So I'm not sure what that says,girl, I'm an Indigo girl.
Yeah.
Um, you know, just because likenot leaving the house, but you
know, so yeah.
So when you're trans, likethat's not cross-dressing.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So I think that people take thatand kind of sensationalize it, I
guess is my point.
And then, I mean, clearly he ismentally ill, right?

(55:48):
That's why I don't think he'struly trans gender.
I mean, there is some, and Ithink the cross dressing is much
more about aligning with anotherpersonality or, you know, this
one, this wanting to fulfillthese desires of his mother that
he can fulfill, um, than aboutanything, anything, you know,
being trans.
That's just my, that was just myopinion.
And it seems, and this is mebeing a arm chair, psychologist.

(56:09):
But when I've read the history,the family history and his
history with his mom inparticular, as I said, you know,
his mom was like taking him todifferent specialists.
So it's not like she wasn'ttaking him places.
Like she would take them here.
She would take them there.
It was just kinda like, okay,now I'm going to take you here
and now I'm going to take youthere now what?
Now I'm going to take you toanother place now, what, but it

(56:30):
seemed like what was absent isthat he probably at no point in
his life felt like he was okayor good enough.

Speaker 3 (56:36):
Well, he was also getting, he was getting mixed
signals to, you know, she'sdressing him in a dress and
calling him, Kristen, thentaking them to special.

Speaker 1 (56:45):
And, and I get the sense that she never saw herself
as part of the problem.
And years ago, like when I wasfirst starting my career, I did
family therapy in home familytherapy.
So glad I don't do that anymore.
But, you know, I saw, I saw thatkind of stuff.
Not, not the same thing asHadden Clark, but where parents
were really, um, they were likedriving the dysfunction in the
family, but of course, like theclient is supposed to be like

(57:06):
the, the juvenile or theteenager.
And it's just like, but, butthey can't see that they're like
all these blind spots andfamilies where they can't see
like what they're actually doingto their children or, or to each
others.
And I, I imagine her alcoholismcovered up a lot of her insight
too.
So there's never a time for himor maybe with the other children
as well.
Like we're, it's like, well, youknow, you are okay and you know,

(57:29):
I love you and it didn't seemlike, it just seemed like that
was, it wasn't necessarily thatshe didn't take him to try to
seek, you know, appropriatehealth.
I mean, they were relativelyaffluent.
It's just that there just didn'tseem to be, you know, a lot of
love or affection at all.
And he feeling in that familyfather and I used to see this
and family therapy to, you know,usually it would be the mother

(57:50):
who was more sort of driving thetreatment and getting the
treatment for the kids in, in,but sometimes it would be
opposite, but like, you know,the father and with Hatton's
case sounds like he was justreally kind of outside the orbit
of the family and intimate, likemom was really alone.
Cause I know, you know, we, Ithink women do tend, the mother
tends to get blamed and thefeminist part of me dislikes
that.
But, but I do think that like, Ithink the dad, um, dad was

(58:14):
really divorced from everythinggoing on, you know?
So I mean, he, it was just, didhe?
Wow, I don't blame him.
God.
I'm like, no, seriously.
I don't know.
I just have to say one morething.
That's kind of outrageous.
And it's like, this is like theperfect family.
That is a good reminder of like,why maybe you shouldn't have
kids.

(58:35):
It's like, when I think about afamily like this, I'm like,
thank you, God, that I never hadchildren.
Like, not that I think my kidswould have ended up like this,
but it's just like the thingsthat can go wrong in a family.
I don't know.
It's just, I guess, between myfamily therapy experience and
like the story, it just reallybrings that out.
Like there's some up familiesout there.
Does anyone, does anyone knowlike what hadn't thought about

(58:57):
his older brother, Brad killingthat one?

Speaker 3 (58:59):
I, I try not to interact with them on a personal
level if I don't have to.
And that was definitely one thatI had no desire to talk to.

Speaker 1 (59:07):
It'd be like, how's your brother?

Speaker 3 (59:16):
Uh, no, I, I was pretty much at anytime I was in
the mental health unit.
I mean, it's probably not PCnow, but you know, they were so
medicated back then.
I called it magic kingdombecause it was just, they were
flying high and

Speaker 1 (59:30):
I was more

Speaker 3 (59:31):
Of an observer than an active participant in that
program.

Speaker 1 (59:35):
I watched some interviews with Hadden Clark or
the interrogations and he would,he would like to sing Bible
songs.
Cause the only place I thinkthat he ever felt kind of
accepted was in church and hewould sing the song.
Like he's the Potter, I'm theclay.
And he's still working on me.
He liked to sing that one.

Speaker 3 (59:53):
Bob never saw him do that.
I did see him do like some weirdchanting and dancing during the
world series.
Uh, I think it was 98 or 99.
It was, um, think it was theYankees and the braids.

Speaker 1 (01:00:07):
Well, it's amazing.
You can remember that.
I would have no idea.

Speaker 3 (01:00:10):
Yeah, because he was like in front of the TV, like
snapping his fingers and doingthese hand motions and twirling
around.
I couldn't figure out who the hewas rooting for, you know, not,
and I'm sure the Yankees and thebridge could be done with that
as serial killer voodoo magic tohelp.

Speaker 1 (01:00:27):
I do clearly remember that.
I wonder if he was doing anysign language because he has,
they're all these drawings.
If you look up Pat and Clark andart or any do an image search,
all of these drawings come upthat he's done.
And some of them are on there,like for sale.
I teased Jen that I was going toget her, that for her birthday.
And she was like, please do not,Jen, don't worry, Jen.
I'm not really going to get thatfor your birthday.

Speaker 3 (01:00:47):
John Wayne Gacy painting of a clown.

Speaker 1 (01:00:49):
Yeah, we did an episode on, um, Gacy.
I don't know if you listened tothat one or not.
I've listened to every episode.
Aw, thank you.
Oh, we're going to have to startgetting some like some little
merge to send out to people wholisten to us.
John, some sausage links, links,Molly snap in half for your
team.

(01:01:10):
I don't think I can.
I don't think I can ever getthat image out of my mind.
Oh my God.
But these drawings.
So going back to these drawings,like, I'm just going to give you
a few because there's so many,just a few of the subjects.
So they are all, they look likethey're done in crayon and they
look like they're done by a kid,but they look like something
like it's better than what Icould do.
So they have some artisticmerit, but like there's little

(01:01:32):
girls with bunnies.
There's Garfield dressed asSanta.
And it says the real meaning ofChristmas.
And then it's got like thenativity scene up in the upper
left hand corner.
And Jen, there's one with DollyParton and she's doing, and it
has the signs for, I will alwayslove you.
I almost died when I saw thatshe's like Dolly with her
guitar.
Are you kidding?

(01:01:53):
Not kidding.
And then so like they all lookreally sweet and you know, like,
like an innocent child did themand then there's one and it's
done in the same style, but it'snot sweet.
It's a drawing of a penis and itsays penis and then they're like
drops of semen and it says, see,so he did that one as well.
So like they're absolutely,they're like crazy.
So anyway, um, I'm just, I justwant to talk a little bit about

(01:02:15):
what everybody's opinion isabout whether Hadden Clark is
serial killer, because we knowyou told Jesus that he killed
like up to a dozen other womenand girls.
And I really think that he, hecould've, you know, I, I don't
disbelieve disbelieve that, butI also think that, you know,
it's hard to kind of sort outwhat was true for him and what
wasn't.
I don't think he knew what wastrue and what wasn't in a lot of

(01:02:37):
cases.
And, you know, I read something,there was one detective that
said, you know, he was reallyhot and cold.
Like he you'd kind of believehim.
And then like, he'd, he'd leadyou on this wild goose chase,
but then there was anotherdetective and I'm just going to
see if I can find this quote.
Now I know his grandparents hada place in Cape Cod and he had
hidden it.
He had some jewelry and thingslike that, that they found up

(01:02:58):
there.
And some of them, I guess, sincehe says belonged to Laura Holden
lane, and they're not sure, Ithink where the others had come
from.
So, I mean, he could have juststolen from people or he could
have taken them from victims.
I mean, nobody knows.

Speaker 3 (01:03:09):
So my answer is absolutely Phineas.
Cause that bucket they found wasover 200 pieces of jewelry.

Speaker 1 (01:03:16):
And I mean, he did steal from churches and stuff.
Like, I mean, he would like goin and he dress up in women's
clothes and like steal fromchurches while people were in
choir practice.
Like Steve go through people'shandbags.

Speaker 3 (01:03:26):
She can't steal earrings and necklaces and stuff
like that.
And he had like this littlesilver wood nymph that he had on
top of it.
And he said that was his firstkill his angel of death.
So yeah, I, I absolutely, Ibelieve that he, he killed more
women up.

Speaker 1 (01:03:45):
Well, there was a woman that was found and
Jennifer, you brought this up tome a few weeks ago about him.
And I was like, Oh no, no, no.
I think he was too young.
Then the lady of the dunes.
Yeah, the lady, the lady of thedunes, or was someone that they
found killed and Provincetown.
Right.
And that she was missing herhands and her face that's right.

(01:04:05):
And he said he used her that hedid kill her.
And then he used her fingers forfish bait.
I did read that, but who knowsif that's true, the way that she
was found though, evidently he,this is why people think that he
might be responsible for this isbecause when the body was found,
um, was I guess kind of layingon her stomach and her hands

(01:04:25):
appeared to be buried.
But what happened was thatwhoever did it cut off the hands
and put like the arms orforearms in the sand, almost
like she was doing pushups andnobody knew that detail, but he
knew it.
Oh, that seems pretty damning tome.

Speaker 3 (01:04:39):
And I mean, overall, here's the thing.
When you kill like that, youdon't just kill ones in my
experience over the years, justdealing with people.
Most of it you've killed for areason, you know, drug deal gone
bad.
Uh, someone's wronged you crimeof passion.
He's killed multiple times thatwe know of twice for petty
revenge

Speaker 1 (01:05:01):
And, and he's very comfortable with it.
And I think he's not justcomfortable with it.
There seems to be an element ofenjoyment.
Like there's a lot, there's alot that he does with it, right?
Like he'll the cannibalism, thetorture, the, he seems to kind
of pre-plant sometimes hepre-plans like with huddling, he
pre-planned, but, um, too muchwith Michelle door.

Speaker 4 (01:05:19):
And I had read that, you know, of course some things
he did plan and others, like youwere saying were very impulsive.
I mean, he's just such a, such ahard dude to figure out.
And, um, along the lines ofyou're thinking Jen, like, I
don't think he really knowswhat's true all the time.
I think so too,

Speaker 3 (01:05:36):
If you met him, you'd I think you would immediately
pick there's something wrongwith him, you know, he's not
right, but I don't think you'dimmediately jumped to serial
killer.
Why don't we hit him?
He was more or less a modelprisoner.
Um, we had a directive, nofemale staff could be alone with
them.
Um, with the males staffmembers, very meek and mild for
the most part, uh, very passiveaggressive with female staff.

Speaker 4 (01:05:59):
Uh, can you give me an example of how he would be
passive aggressive, what hewould do?

Speaker 3 (01:06:03):
He's almost childish, you know, slamming down stomp
and, um, snide remarks,

Speaker 4 (01:06:10):
Which makes sense.
Cause he has all that resentmenttowards his mother and he he's
acting like a child.
I mean, I hate to pin everythingon the mom and make it sound
like it's psycho, you know, likethe movie psycho, but Jesus was
saying that he's like he said,you know, Kristen was just
awful, was a complete thatpersonality.
If indeed he, you know, had did.
And then also he had anotherpersonality or claim to have

(01:06:33):
another personality that wasnamed Nicole and Nicole was uh,
Kristen's daughter.
Never heard that one.
Wow.
Did that come from Adrian?
Um, Howell's book too.
Yeah.
Interesting.
The quota was looking forearlier was um, by this guy it's
from an article by Amy wardenfor the APB news, but she quotes
a police, chief RichardRosenthal and his quote.

(01:06:55):
He says, we're dealing with aserial killer here.
We don't know how many people hekilled.
So that's one, you know, onepolice detective who thinks.
So I guess we have to, I wouldtend to think that too.
What do you think Jen?
Oh, I do too.
I do too.
I don't, as we were just saying,I don't know if he knows, you
know, the full extent of hiscrimes or what what's true and
what isn't true, but I do thinkhe's killed other people.

(01:07:16):
And I think Jim had a goodpoint.
Like, you know, he, he wouldstill jewelry and things, but in
order to, you were saying likehe would do it in church.
He would like dress up like awoman.
And I guess when people aren'tchoir practice, this is just an
example you gave that he wouldgo and steal from their purses,
but you don't normally keep anecklace on your purse.
That's true.
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:07:34):
They'll keep it in their purse.
You might do a ring.
He may be, but I mean 200 piecesof jewelry.

Speaker 4 (01:07:41):
Yeah.
That's, that's crazy.
So, but I also read that.
He said when he gets out or ifhe were to get out, the first
thing he would do would be to gokill his brother and his and his
sister that are out because Iguess one wore a wire and
another maybe testified againsthim.
God, quizzy had 70 yearsaltogether, right.

(01:08:02):
30 for each murder and 10 fortheft.
He'll be, he'll be,

Speaker 3 (01:08:06):
He'll be dead by the time his timer that

Speaker 4 (01:08:08):
I was just going to say, um, again, I'm not a mental
health professional, but I'mstill not convinced that he
didn't have paranoid

Speaker 1 (01:08:16):
Schizophrenia and also did, but I'm sure he was
just so disordered.
It's hard to tease out any ofthat and yeah, because you know,
with the whole, you know,preoccupation with revenge and
he was very, also very, veryparanoid person.
That's true.
That's true.
In that I think along with likeall the sort of, you know,

(01:08:37):
developmental insults, hesuffered as a child, you know,
just like you had said earlier,Jen, like he didn't feel loved
there wasn't a sense of love orbelonging or being enough.
And I think that's somethingthat, um, when it's missing it
could be really damaging,especially if it's on top of all
these other things going on.
So yeah.
I, I mean, I think Hadden Clarkand why I think he's so scary to

(01:09:00):
me because he's really theperfect storm of a serial
killer.
I mean, he's, he's kind of gotit all, you know, in a really,
really terrible way.
I mean, when you look at thepicture, I looked up the picture
of the victims and you know, yousee Michelle Dorin, she's so
cute.
I mean, it made me sad that shekind of had a difficult
childhood already cause herparents argued a lot and I'm

(01:09:21):
just like, God, like poor littlething in her life.
You know, you have, you livedsix years and, and then you're
brutally murdered.

Speaker 5 (01:09:28):
Oh, she wanted to do was go see your friend was
probably the bright point in herday.

Speaker 1 (01:09:33):
I know exactly.
Well, it's two, it's like justwhole like how one little
decision, you know how that justthis cascading events are just
like, I, I think too, when he,when she went to the house to
ask to play with, with, uh,Eliza, is it Eliza?
Eliza, Eliza.
Yeah.
He didn't his brother.

(01:09:53):
He was telling them it waskicking them out.
Basically it was only given himcause he'd been apparently
jerking off in front of thekids.
Yeah.
So she was, she ended up, youknow, being at her dad's house
and then happens to go down andjust that time.
And I, you know, it sounds like,you know, Jim had said that if
we, if we met him, we'd kind ofknow something was off, but you
know, a six year old kid therethings, I mean, I think kids can

(01:10:16):
be very observant and can noticea lot, but things can also go
past you.
And I think kids are verytrusting.
They just, usually at six, youhaven't had enough experience to
really be leery of people.
And I don't know, it's just, youknow, it's like a monster in
plain sight that are themonsters that you can't
recognize as monsters.
And that's another part of thisthat I think scares me because
you know, there are people outthere right now, walking the

(01:10:37):
streets who are like that, andhadn't Clark is, was is, is
creepy and disturbing as a storycomms or to do a story on, I
would agree with that.
So we need to figure outsomething to toast on it.
I don't feel like we shouldtoast a hat and Clark, I think
we should toast a Jim, who isour first guest firm has worked

(01:11:01):
with these difficult cases.

Speaker 5 (01:11:04):
Yeah.
You're here.
Thank you for you.
I love your guys' show.
I really enjoy it.
Um, you're you're in my, uh,podcast feed.
So to you ladies, thank you somuch.
Cheers everybody.

Speaker 2 (01:12:34):
[inaudible].

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Special Guest Episode: Sins of the Son - The Heinous Crimes of Hadden Clark

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.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Special Guest Episode: Sins of the Son - The Heinous Crimes of Hadden Clark