October 28, 2020 • 40 mins
There are some people who are always ready to think the best of the world and the people in it. Tonight we’ll tell the story of what happened when one such “nice guy” opened his home to a mysterious stranger.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
I'm Jen Lee and I'm Janice Olivan.
And we'd like to welcome you tobeneath your bed, a podcast
where we drag out all thosefears at work, beneath our beds
from the paranormal to truecrime, to the simply strange
along the way, we'll be drinkingcocktails and sharing stories
from our Appalachianupbringings.
There's some people who arealways ready to think the best
of the world and the people init tonight.
(00:21):
We'll tell the story of whathappened when one such nice guy
opened his home to a mysteriousstranger.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
How are you?
Speaker 1 (00:41):
I'm doing well.
How are you?
I'm glad it's Friday.
Oh, me too.
It's been a week and it's been aweek.
It's been a week trying to getthis podcast off the ground.
We have had more technicalissues this week.
Like it's been the week fromhell.
Anyone who thinks you can justtake your mic and plug it into
the computer.
Yeah.
You can do that, but it is muchharder than it sounds.
(01:04):
Absolutely.
So it's really, I think when wegot on tonight and our sound was
working, everything's going tobe in order.
I was like, yes, we can finallydo this.
Yeah.
Thank God.
And speaking to God, what do youthink of Jerry Falwell jr.
Thank God.
I just saw it actually, justbefore I got on here with you.
Um, I was scrolling throughFacebook.
And what is it?
He had some kind of racy photoor something.
(01:25):
That's come out now.
He's he's been shamed.
Yes.
He had, he posted a photo toInstagram.
I think it was Instagram or oneof his social media accounts.
And he did it by accidentevidently and he standing next
to a young woman who I think shelooks like she's wearing a wig
and they both had their pants onbutton them to end their
(01:47):
stomachs exposed.
So if you can imagine JerryFalwell jr.
With, do I have to yeah.
With his, uh, his stomachexposed hairy belly.
Yeah.
It was kind of hairy.
I think I'm not an expert onmen's Belize, but it looked kind
of hairy to me.
So he also had a drink in hishand and something in the
(02:08):
caption said, this is just blackwater.
Oh my God.
So it looked like it wasalcohol.
Of course.
So for all those petty thingsthat they throw students off
campus for at Libertyuniversity, evidently Jerry
Falwell jr.
Can just do whatever he likes.
Or maybe not.
Now that they've asked him totake a temporary leave of
(02:29):
absence, what's in your highball glass tonight.
I started off making a French 75and then it developed into
something completely different.
I don't even know what you wouldcall it.
I added some, some lemon cello.
I added some st Germain to it.
(02:50):
And I think I added some vodkaas well.
That sounds so delicious,honestly.
Yeah.
So it's not a friend 75 now,does it have champagne too?
Top it off?
I use Prosecco that you hadgiven me before.
So I had it in the fridge and Ithought let's try this.
And with the COVID I don'treally want to go running to the
liquor store.
So I'm trying to use upeverything that's in.
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (03:11):
Well, you're probably going to come up with some
interesting cocktails, justtrying to work through your
stuff.
Speaker 1 (03:15):
Cash.
I have a lot of booze to, to gothrough.
So typically French 75 wouldhave lemon in it and Jen, and
then top with champagne and somesimple syrup in that really
yummy if you haven't had it
Speaker 3 (03:29):
Before I had about a year ago and I loved it, I
bought this really cheap bottleof champagne, like$5 champagne
while really sparkling wine.
Cause I'm sure it was not fromchampagne, Tanya.
Um, but I bought it when I wasin West Virginia.
So I'm going to have to makesomething out of that and be
like an Appalachian French.
Stephanie, I need to moonshotfor that.
Exactly.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
Yeah.
There you go.
In the bar there and asked forthem
Speaker 3 (03:57):
Layer on me.
Okay.
Speaker 1 (04:00):
Yay.
So let's get started tonight.
We're going to talk about thecase of oaky El kite.
And this case takes place inAurora, Colorado on a Saturday,
May 22nd, 2004, 53 year old,Okie El kite picked up his
girlfriend and he took her tothe airport.
Two days later, he didn't showup for work.
And by all accounts, he wasvery, very reliable.
(04:22):
Um, his coworkers becameextremely worried about him.
So they reached out to hissister, Barbara.
They told her that he hadn'tcome into work that morning and
they were worried about him.
Speaker 3 (04:31):
That's never a good sign.
Is it?
It never goes well when theperson doesn't show up
Speaker 1 (04:35):
For me, because sometimes
Speaker 3 (04:38):
You show up for work.
Speaker 1 (04:39):
Oh no, I do.
But sometimes I forget to tellpeople when you know, I'm taking
the day off and I'll get callsor random texts about my, my,
wherever.
I felt my whereabouts.
Speaker 3 (04:49):
That's true.
I think I've done that with youbefore.
Are you okay?
Are you on the line?
Speaker 1 (04:53):
Multiple people have done that with me.
So yeah, unless you're me, thenit's very concerning.
So when they called her sister,Barbara, she was really, really
concerned.
And she told them go to Al'shouse and try to get him to come
to the door and also call thepolice.
So when his coworkers went toAl's townhome, they were not
(05:14):
going to his door calling forhim.
Al never came to the door.
So they call the police and thepolice arrived.
And when they went inside, theyended up going downstairs and
they found Al face down wherehis feet had been bound behind
him and also his arms.
And he was deceased.
One of the things that was mostnotable or stood out, and there
(05:37):
was a lot of things just tostand out.
In this case, his feet wereseverely bruised.
And the coroner report indicatesthat he was most likely tortured
for hours.
What they also found was that hehad, and this just makes me
cringe.
He had knives that have beeninserted into his ears.
He had a knife inserted over oneof his eyes and his throat had
(06:02):
also been cut.
And the first two things youmentioned, like the,
Speaker 3 (06:07):
I don't know, I'm imagining these thin little
knives.
I don't know what the kniveswere actually like, but that
doesn't seem like something thatwould kill you.
It's just amount of torture andthat's, that's horrifying
Speaker 1 (06:15):
Kind of large to me who knows if they were exact
replicas, but anything, a knife,anything above two inches looks
huge to me.
They went upstairs and justgetting that.
Speaker 3 (06:28):
I just, it just takes me a while.
Sometimes
Speaker 1 (06:33):
The one upstairs and in the sink, they found bleach
and water.
And in that were knives.
They look to be knives that werekept at Al's home.
Look to be his own personalknives, kitchen knives.
Speaker 3 (06:45):
Damn.
That always pisses me off.
I have to say, when people getkilled by their own shit, you
know,
Speaker 1 (06:50):
Freaks me out, just looking at the knife block,
where we keep our knives and itjust gives me the creeps.
Especially if I'm by myself.
Speaker 3 (06:56):
I felt that too.
I'm glad I'm not the only one.
This is
Speaker 1 (07:00):
Illuminating.
Yeah.
When I'm alone, uh, that really,really scares me for whatever
reason.
Wow.
I didn't know that about younow.
You know?
And then also things beingbeneath my bed.
Yeah.
Someone looking in the windowthat was super freaky to me.
So in the bleach, they alsofound a drinking glass.
(07:21):
They found keys to Al's townhomeand they also found a honing
rod.
So what's the honing rod.
Well, if you have that, I don'teven know what the proper term
is from the block that you keepyour knives in
Speaker 3 (07:35):
A lot of sharpen.
Like, do you sharpen your knifewith it?
Speaker 1 (07:38):
Exactly.
Like I've tried to use it beforeand I don't know what I'm doing.
It never seems to work.
So it just, just stays there.
It never goes any place.
So yeah, it was one of those.
It was a honing rod and thepolice found one drop of single
source DNA, meaning it belongedto just one person.
(07:59):
It was a mixed with ALS on thesteps.
And when the detectives weregoing through the house, they
fingerprinted almost everything.
And it just, it came up withnothing.
And they also, after usingluminol, they picked up where
the killer had taken a showernow and ELLs,
Speaker 3 (08:19):
Luminol picks up blood.
Right.
It, it shows blood kind ofglowing.
Speaker 1 (08:23):
Exactly.
So if you, there was pronouncedevidence of what it would show
up on when you use luminol, butif you didn't use it, I guess
you wouldn't be able to see it.
Speaker 3 (08:32):
But so the blood was probably Alison, I guess, in the
shower, like the blood that hehad on him from him.
Speaker 1 (08:37):
Yeah.
Okay.
Yeah.
It would totally have to be histo carry out the kind of crime
he would have been covered inblood.
So he evidently stayed quitesome time at Al's house.
And what's significant about thekeys is that Al had a roommate,
he was going to run out the roomand his, in his townhome and
(09:01):
whoever the roommate wasimmediately shot to the top of
their list because they saw thekeys.
Yeah, of course.
Now Al's girlfriend, Linda.
The last time she saw him, hedropped her off at the airport
and they had just started thisnew relationship and they were
calling each other girlfriend,Hey girlfriend, Hey boyfriend.
And all that sweet cutesy stuffat the beginning, you remember
(09:25):
that?
She called him later at aroundthree 30.
And she was saying that when shetalked to him, he seemed very
reserved, you know, very flat,not his, you know, usual
outgoing, jovial self.
So there's speculation thatperhaps a killer could have been
there at that time.
(09:46):
The killer had filled out thisor the suspect had filled out
this rental application for Aland everything on it was false
except for a phone number.
And when Linda met him, she hadcome by Al's house.
So he came upstairs or he'slike, Oh, do you want to meet,
you know, my potential roommate?
(10:07):
She's like, yeah, I do.
But I have to run to thebathroom.
So she goes to the bathroom, shecomes back and as she came back
and she wasn't gone long, shesaw this Robert Cooper, Birdly
leaving the house.
Didn't turn around.
Didn't say hello.
Didn't say bye.
Speaker 3 (10:22):
So it was kind of like he was trying to avoid her.
Maybe he didn't want
Speaker 1 (10:26):
That's what, that's what she thinks.
So she only saw the back of himand maybe the side profile.
She said that he had dark curlyhair.
He seemed to be average billed,but he was also nicely dressed.
And she said that he carried acane, which is super creepy to
me.
Yeah.
If he didn't need one.
So when they ran the blood incodas, it didn't come up with a
(10:46):
hit.
But later through furthertesting, they determined that
this blood belonged to someonewho was from the Balkan region,
which is, you know, Albania,Bosnia, Romania would be
another.
And by all accounts, Al was areally nice guy.
And that factors in to his, hismurder as well, in what way over
(11:09):
and over and over again, that'show people described him.
He was nice.
He was really, really nice.
He was a nice person.
And since he was picked tocommit this crime against
speculation is that he waschosen because he was nice.
He would never suspect someonecapable of doing anything.
So heinous, I mean, who would
Speaker 3 (11:31):
Exactly, but he would never be able to imagine that
this guy who's, you know,filling out an application to be
his roommate could be asociopath.
He would never, he's not goingto think badly of him,
Speaker 1 (11:42):
Nice people when bad things happen or people do bad
things to them.
They don't see it coming.
I think because it would neveroccur to them to do such a
thing.
And especially what to him, Imean, it's just, I've, it's the
most brutal I think killing I'veever heard.
Speaker 3 (11:59):
Yeah.
It's horrifying.
It also seems strange to methat, I mean, it seems like
overkill for sure.
Like, you know, the guy, thewhoever, Robert Cooper, whoever
this guy is is, is having a goodtime.
Like he's playing with him.
Speaker 1 (12:13):
Yeah.
They say that later that he'sreally seemed to enjoy it.
A lot of the information we gotoff the Paul holes show, the DNA
of murder was one of the sourcesfor this, where a lot of the
information came from and he hadan array of resources at his
fingertips that other people ordetectives I think would not
have had.
(12:34):
So when to the, the course ofthe detectives research,
detective Sobieski, who has beenon the case for a very long
time, they found out thateverything on the application of
course was false.
The name, the address issecurity number.
And they, there was their phonenumber.
They eventually found a phonenumber.
(12:54):
I believe they found that at hisand his work and they call the
number and it ended up ahomeless man.
I picked up the phone.
It was a burden
Speaker 3 (13:03):
With a burner phone though.
I'm just curious, like, so hehad discarded the phone
somewhere and somebody picked itup.
Is that what happened?
Speaker 1 (13:09):
Yes.
Yes.
He had discarded the phone andsomeone had picked it up.
Okay.
So the detectives think thatthey're going to catch a break,
even though it's a burner phone,because they can maybe trace
some calls that he made.
And the ended up, he did makemore than one call and he made
multiple calls to people.
They're all people who placedadvertisements in newspapers for
(13:33):
roommates.
Speaker 3 (13:33):
God, I'm never doing that.
You've not allowed to do thateither.
Speaker 1 (13:38):
It's his house with a townhome.
When you go downstairs, it's thesmall bedroom, the small area
that he was renting.
And you would think a townhomewould be a very bad place to
commit this type of crime,especially it was planned out
because you know, you're sharinga wall, but if you saw the room,
you would see that it was veryisolated.
(14:00):
It looked like, you know, youwouldn't be able to hear
something like that going on.
There was a window, but it ledup to a great, so even the
window wasn't even ground level.
So, and then also when you camedown the steps, it looked like
there was, you could make aright and that could possibly
take you into another room orwho knows maybe a storage area
(14:22):
or garage.
I'm not sure, but I looked at itmore closely and it wasn't just
that one room down there.
It looked like there wassomething else.
They released two sketches.
One to me closely resembled thedescription that Linda had given
and another didn't.
The other one just was like abasic, I don't know.
(14:43):
It could have been anybody.
Speaker 3 (14:46):
Male face.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Just nothing that stood abouthim.
The other
Speaker 1 (14:52):
One, the features to me seem more distinct.
Okay.
What investigators also foundwas that he had used ALS card
taken out, I believe a thousanddollars and they got pictures of
him.
So this was quite some time ago.
It wasn't video footage.
It was like still pictures.
(15:13):
So it shows him using his cardcan over at the camera, just
very casual and it takes out themoney and he leaves and they
found Al's truck abandoned.
Not far from his home afterthat.
Speaker 3 (15:23):
I mean, this is probably would have been what,
just a few hours after themurder,
Speaker 1 (15:27):
If he was at the house for a number of hours, who
knows, uh, if he had to cleanup, he had to take a shower.
Speaker 3 (15:33):
You know, I know there's no way of ever knowing
this, but it just makes mewonder, did Al have any
misgivings about this guy?
I mean, we have to assume, Iguess he didn't because he was
willing to rent the place tohim, but it just makes you
wonder, I mean, did Linda eversay that Al said anything to
her?
Like, Hey, this guy's a little,you know, a little weird,
anything like that?
Speaker 1 (15:53):
No, she didn't say that at all.
What Al did say to her was thatwhen he had come to look at the,
the room and he had heard outthe door, I'll had said to her,
I made a comment, like he's notinterested in a room anymore.
Oh.
And Linda thinks, and this makesperfect sense.
Is that when the renter came totake a look at the room, he
(16:19):
didn't expect Linda to be there.
Yeah.
So he probably told Al you know,just forget it, whatever.
I don't, you know, I'm not goingto do this.
Well, I believe a couple ofweeks later, he actually gave Al
he filled out a rental agreementand he gave out$250, like is a
down deposit.
And then part of the nextmonth's rent.
(16:40):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (16:41):
You know what puzzles me too though.
You know, you said somethingabout how he may be.
He was put off of it when herealized, okay, maybe Linda's
around, you know, I'll maybe hehas this girlfriend who's coming
over, but why wouldn't you bebetter than one?
Like if he really wants to killsomebody, why doesn't he want to
kill a couple?
It's not like, I mean, I don'tthink Linda probably would have
been able to put up a big fight.
(17:02):
You know?
I mean, it's going to be harderto take on a man than a woman in
most cases.
So that's just strange to me.
It's
Speaker 1 (17:09):
I suppose it would just be more challenging.
And too, it's interesting thathe picked a man.
He didn't pick a woman, but whatyou'll find out is after
detectives get this burnerphone, Trey, some calls thinking
that they can somehow trace itback to this guy.
What they found is that he mademultiple calls, but they were
(17:31):
all to people who place ads inthe paper for roommates.
And one was a woman, a professorwho taught, I believe it was
Denver university.
Aurora is like right outside ofDenver.
And she taught Romanian and shedetected a slight Romanian
accent.
That proves to be very, veryimportant.
But she, so when he came to lookat her home that instantly, she
(17:54):
just wanted them out.
She wanted him to leave.
He wasn't really asking her anyquestions or talking to her.
He was pacing around.
He was looking out the windowsand she said, she just wanted
him out.
Speaker 3 (18:06):
This was evil.
Speaker 1 (18:08):
And if you go back to all accounts about Al you hear
this over and over and overagain is that he was just a nice
guy.
He was such a nice guy.
Every description you heard ofhim was just talking about what
a nice likable person he was.
So when you think about, you hadasked maybe why he didn't kill a
couple or go for somebody else,like, why didn't he go for this
(18:30):
woman, this professor, whydidn't he go for her?
And one of the things that wastheorized is that because she
was uncomfortable with him,maybe she asked him too many
questions.
You know, she sensed that therewas something off about him that
he wanted to choose somebody whoguard would be on and they
wouldn't expect it.
(18:51):
They said that it did not appearthat there was a sexual assault.
So this wasn't based on, youknow, a sexual motive sounds
like an Al he found the perfectvictim just because he was such
a good trusting
Speaker 3 (19:03):
And nice person, kid, you know, this Robert Cooper,
whoever he is, he could pick upon that and tell that this is a
person who was never going tosuspect.
And yeah, I mean, he'd just comeget into my home, you know, make
yourself comfortable.
And it's like, uh, you know,when you think about that, it's
like a lock and a key perfectvictim, perfect perpetrator.
(19:25):
They just fit.
But in such a terrible way,
Speaker 1 (19:28):
It's just frightening.
And to think that he would be soconfident to, to choose a man.
But if you look at the, if youlook at the home, it looks like
it's, uh, I, I imagine it's asplit for your type situation.
Cause if you go downstairs theroom that he was going to rent,
it appeared to be on theleft-hand side.
It was a very small room andthere was a window.
And you would think, well, whywould someone commit such a
(19:50):
terrible crime, you know, in atownhome?
Cause you have a joining.
Yeah.
Well, once they looked at it, ifyou look closely at the room,
you'll see that there's only onewindow and that doesn't even
lead like right out to, it wouldnot be easy to exit through that
window.
You would have to go through agrade.
So the window wasn't even, youknow, eye level.
(20:13):
And it would have been theperfect place to do this.
Some of the information that Igot researching this came from a
show that was from 2006 and itwas called sensing murder.
Can you guess what
Speaker 3 (20:27):
That was about murder?
Um, psychics kind of like tryingto, Oh my mum.
Right.
Speaker 1 (20:37):
And this show, I don't know how long the show had
been on I'm guessing at least acouple seasons Al's sister
Barbara had reached out to themand asked that they would cover
Al's case.
So it was two women psychics, assoon as like a lot of psychics
are women
Speaker 3 (20:54):
Or gay men.
It's that female intuition thatwe have.
Speaker 1 (20:58):
Well, I didn't think they had much of an intuition.
I'll get to that and just dosecond.
So the detectives needing leadsand wanting to solve this case.
And then also because his sisterBarbara had reached out to the
show and I'm guessing to them,they agreed to show the two
psychics, the crime scene.
And at the time it wasn't justdetective Sobieski.
(21:20):
That was working on the case.
It was a, a female detective too.
And that was back in 2006 withtwo years after it happened.
And I do believe in psychics orsome people have that ability,
but I'm very, very skeptical.
And with these two, they wereasking the investigators a lot
of stuff about the crime.
(21:41):
So they're asking him and theother female detectives, they
took them one, went with onepsychic and the other one with
another psychic.
So it wasn't ever four of themtogether in a room.
It was two and two.
So the psychics each to me,especially one would say, I
think that maybe I sentsomething with his head.
(22:03):
And then the look at thedetective looking for some type
of affirmation, I think therewas some type of trauma to his
body.
No bitch, no they called you.
Or you recalled to ask toprovide your input.
They're not supposed to tell youexactly what happened.
You're supposed to be helping.
They're just trying to read thebody language.
And yeah, that's what I thinktoo.
(22:25):
I don't know if you remember thepsychic that was very famous.
He was always on MontelWilliams, Sylvia Brown.
I remember her with SylviaBrown, especially when I notice
with her was that she was sorude to people like people would
ask her about missing childrenor about the relationships with
her children, what they shoulddo.
And she would just be veryreluctant.
(22:46):
She also consulted, I believe onthe Shawn Hornbeck case where he
was kidnapped and his parentshad looked for him for years and
years and years.
And everybody just assumed thathe had passed.
Um, they went to her and she waslike, you know, he's dead.
Just really offensive.
Just seem mean spirited.
So anytime I see someone likethat, and they're immediately
(23:06):
trying to shut someone down orlike take somebody's last hope
or trying to, you know, get themto move along and not allow them
to ask for the questions.
Then I find that very suspect,
Speaker 3 (23:18):
What kind of thing, psychics by the time they make
it, when they're on the Oprahshow or whatever, you know,
these people were on, it's moreof a, it becomes more of an
entertainment thing than thereal deal.
I think, I feel like probablythe best psychics aren't out
there making, making the circuitof all these talk shows.
Speaker 1 (23:35):
I feel the same way that they wouldn't be out there
doing that, that they would justbe, you know, offering their
services or, you know, notnecessarily for free, but, or
just doing it privately.
Speaker 3 (23:46):
You know, I think sometimes law enforcement, they
feel a little, they don't evenwant to reveal that they're
using psychics.
So I think a lot of times it'son the low, at least from what
I've understood from readingabout different cases and things
like that.
Speaker 1 (23:57):
But I think the sister, again, she's the one who
reached out.
So I think they were justprepared to give anything
Speaker 3 (24:04):
At this point because they understand the case is
still unsolved right.
To this day.
Speaker 1 (24:10):
Yeah.
It's still unsolved with Paulholes back to his show.
He had a lot of resources at hisdisposal that these detectives
did not seem like they had.
And Paul holes is the one whosolved the golden state killer.
And then Michelle
Speaker 3 (24:25):
McNamara wrote, wrote about, yeah,
Speaker 1 (24:28):
Yeah.
There's a series on sedation.
Speaker 3 (24:30):
Yeah, it is.
And then her book came out, Ithink what 2018 after her death
actually.
Yeah.
I've watched the series.
It's amazing.
Speaker 1 (24:37):
Yeah.
I'm just starting, I'm only onepisode.
I think maybe three finished.
You're desperate
Speaker 3 (24:42):
With them for, for a treat.
I, I watched the last episodeand it was just, I was just
really deeply moved by itactually.
You know, I think that her storygoing to give anything away, but
intertwined with her search forthis killer.
And I don't know, I think thatthe show does a really good job
of laying out these differentthemes and kind of everything.
I think you'll find thateverything comes together in the
(25:03):
last episode in a reallyinteresting way.
So
Speaker 1 (25:06):
Hopefully I'll finish the rest of it this weekend.
But so far I think has beenexcellent.
So he's the detective that hadsolved that particular case and
it had gone and solved fordecades and they used, he used
DNA, but it was through likegenealogy, the single source
DNA, the blood drop that theyfound on the steps.
(25:26):
The detectives found on thesteps just belonged to the
suspect or the murderer didn'tbelong to Al that's gonna play
into this later.
The bindings that Al was boundwith were just really elaborate.
So when you hog tie someone forlack of better terms, you know,
it's putting your risk behindyour back and then also your
(25:48):
feet behind your back.
Well, with these bindings, theywere unique because they also
bound all the way up to hisupper arms and the knots were
tied unusually.
So Paul holes enlist this experton binding.
Well, what Paul holes also didis that he reached out to
someone who is a civilianintelligence analysts and she
(26:11):
develops cultural profiles.
What they find out who thecivilian analyst is, she
developed this profile and shesaid that the type of feet,
meaning where Al's feet werereally, really ruse is called
Flocka.
And it's used by the Hezbollahand Turkey.
It's not, she said it wasn't aterrorist organization.
So I guess it's somehow distinctfrom some of the others.
(26:34):
Um, I don't know how, but shedidn't really go into that,
which would have been helpful.
But anyway, she said thatphiloso was common to this group
and it's used to extract orcompliance.
And do you remember the honingrod in the sink?
She said that that rod couldhave been used or most likely
used to beat his feet.
And that's why there was asevere,
Speaker 3 (26:55):
No, but you're not going to kill someone by beating
their feet.
So that sounds like just pure,pure torture.
I mean,
Speaker 1 (27:01):
I feel like it was just done for the pure enjoyment
of it.
Nothing else, just that when shewas talking about the Turkish
Hezbollah being known for thephilosophy, she said that they
would bind people in a similarmanner how Al was found.
So they were known for theirunique brand of torture.
(27:24):
I didn't look, um, I went toamnesty international and they
indicated that philosophy isalso used by the police.
So this guy could be a lawenforcement.
So in law enforcement.
Yeah.
And it didn't really say that inthe show, but evidently it's
could have been a policeofficer.
What she went on to explain wasis that again, if you remember,
(27:46):
Al's killing took place in 2004,one, the early two thousands,
there was a big flow of trafficfrom places like Romania to
Turkey, because there was a drawfor jobs and education,
especially in the in stand bullarea.
And when Turkish Hezbollah wasgetting too powerful, the
Turkish government began acrackdown.
(28:06):
So people were ever, you know,or either round it up or they
escaped.
So everything's falling intoplace, the Romanian accent, the
blood, the single source DNA, orthat said that the person was
probably from the Balkan region,all these pieces are falling
into place.
So the killer could haveimmigrated to the us.
They could have slipped it
Speaker 3 (28:26):
Maybe less to like, right.
Cause you think like whatbrought him to Aurora of all,
you know, you could have goneanywhere.
Presumably.
Speaker 1 (28:33):
Yeah.
It's so random.
Um, so yeah, I think there's areally good possibility that he
could, could've been going toschool there, I guess, has
gotten some leads becausethey're working with relatives
to build a family tree, youknow, hoping to identify this
man.
So it's the same method thatPaul holes used to catch the
(28:55):
golden state killer.
Speaker 3 (28:55):
I feel like, you know, DNA does not lie and more
and more people are signing upon these genealogical sites all
the time.
I mean, actually I have a 23 andme kit that was given to me and
I haven't done yet, but youknow, you just think people are
always being added.
It's just, it's building andbuilding.
So yeah.
Chances are good.
It seems to me that they mighteventually find this guy
Speaker 1 (29:18):
I'm too paranoid to, to do that.
I know of other people have doneit too, but I just don't want
anybody to have my DNA and thenthey take it and they'd sell it
off.
And you know, they can sell thatinformation off to any company.
What do they, you know, sell itto insurance companies.
You don't know, but you know,that is just me.
Speaker 3 (29:34):
Brian has done it.
Basically.
He found out he's like a hundredpercent Irish for whatever
that's worth, but he's found allof relatives through it.
And
Speaker 1 (29:43):
You know, he's really good at tracing his genealogy.
Anyway,
Speaker 3 (29:47):
I think it's, I wouldn't not do it.
I keep meaning to do it.
Um, and I haven't done it, but I, I know what you mean.
It's kind of invasion of privacykind
Speaker 1 (29:54):
Of stuff.
Yeah.
But it's fascinating.
Speaker 3 (29:57):
Like if they do end up catching him, you know, you
think, okay, there was a onedrop of blood and then how that
can be used to extract DNA andthen they do this, I guess,
really forensic genealogy.
So I don't know.
I wonder if they're going tocatch him, it's such a long time
ago now, you know, Cod 2004.
That's what 16 years
Speaker 1 (30:15):
It is.
And the person, you know, verywell might not even be in the U
S any longer or even be
Speaker 3 (30:20):
Alive, although it didn't sound like he was an old
Speaker 1 (30:23):
Man.
No, no, it didn't.
And the first time I saw thiscase, it was on, I believe
America's most wanted, I triedto go back and find it, but I
couldn't.
And I remember just being sosorry.
Speaker 3 (30:35):
Yeah.
And I was, I was actuallywondering like, what, what is it
about this case?
I mean, it is, it is horrifying,you know, all the details in the
torture, but I'm just curious,like what about it?
You know, there's so manyhorrifying cases, like what
about it just really gets toyou?
Speaker 1 (30:49):
Well, it's in your own home, which based on
forensic files and all the showsthat I've watched, you know, it
wouldn't be necessarily thatunusual, the knife being used
that always freaks me out.
Yeah.
When I'm home alone, I don'tlike to have that featured
prominently on my calendar.
There have been times I'veactually taken the nights out
(31:10):
and I've put them in thedrawers.
Yes,
Speaker 3 (31:12):
Yes.
My luck I'd be hit with like amud LER.
You know, he used to make mydrinks like knock, knock me down
Speaker 1 (31:18):
Senseless.
That would be a much better,much better way.
So I think it's because, youknow, in your own home, the
knives from your kitchen, ayou're it's happening to a man,
a man being overpowered likethat.
Yeah.
And then also it was just donebecause they like doing it.
I mean, maybe this was a personthat was involved in torture and
(31:41):
Turkey and since they had toflee the country, they lost that
connection and they enjoyed it.
So he just wanted to be able to,
Speaker 3 (31:50):
Again, if there are other victims they did, did they
mention that at all, that theycan link this to any, any, any
other crimes?
Speaker 1 (31:57):
No, no.
There was no
Speaker 3 (32:02):
Doing it once is not going to be enough.
You know, you're going to haveto have a regular diet of this
to, to get you through, butweird if he did it once and then
was able to, somehow
Speaker 1 (32:12):
It makes you wonder if the person is still in the
country.
Um, there was one other case.
I can't remember what state orwhat time it was.
It was kind of similar, but ithappened to a realtor, but I
can't remember the specifics ofthe case, but it doesn't sound
like it's the same one.
There were some similarities.
So to me, it's someone who wasonly in the U S for a certain
(32:34):
period of time and then movedon.
And if people were being drawnfrom Romania or the Balkan
region to Turkey for educationin, in Stan bowl, that was a big
draw.
Maybe, you know, they continuedtheir education at Denver
university.
Cause Aurora is just rightoutside of Denver.
And I believe that's where thewoman, one of the potential
(32:54):
landlords where she was at thatuniversity.
Speaker 3 (32:58):
And I think part, part of what's creepy about it
to me is the, like what seems tobe randomness.
But then on the other hand,isn't really random.
I mean, I, don't not that hemaybe had a vendetta for Al, but
he Al was kind of like wediscussed this already, but the
perfect victim, right.
He was very trusting.
He didn't have his guard up, butI don't know.
It just that the randomrandomness of it
Speaker 1 (33:21):
Talked about too, about, you want to show like
this and your life is justreduced to this crime.
You know, it was very onedimensional other than, you
know, hearing descriptions ofhim being a nice guy.
And obviously he was loved, butyou know, you live a whole
entire lifetime and that's whatyou're reduced to, and that's,
what's remembered about you
Speaker 3 (33:40):
And think about that in terms of even talking about
murders or true crime, I thinkthe whole true crime industry.
Um, and I guess we're, we'repart of it now, since we're
talking about this, but youknow, it has that, that kind of
questionable seamy undersidethat, you know, why are we, are
we, um, uh, I don't know whatthe word is, um, fascinated or
(34:02):
attract, are we somehowcapitalizing on somebody's death
for entertainment?
I mean, there's no question thatit's entertainment, right.
Murder.
I mean, I think true crime bookssell like crazy.
They're how I think you couldlose count of all the true crime
podcasts and, and shows on, butthere's something about it that
(34:22):
we just can't look away from.
It,
Speaker 1 (34:24):
Especially women, evidently it's a huge industry
with women.
And I, I, I kind of look at itin terms of, it's almost like an
adult ghost story.
Speaker 3 (34:35):
Yeah.
That makes a lot of sense.
An adult go story.
Speaker 1 (34:39):
When I was a kid, we used to love to, when we had
sleepovers to tell ghoststories.
And to me, it's kind of like a,an adult ghost story and yes, I
think about people profiting or,um, somehow
Speaker 3 (34:51):
People like kind of getting off on like the misery
of what's happened to somebodyelse.
Is that what you mean?
Like,
Speaker 1 (34:57):
We like to talk about it.
I mean, here we are talkingabout this actually re after
researching it, it started tomake me kind of depressed and I
thought, Oh, I hope we getthrough this episode so we can
move on to something elsebecause this one's right.
Speaker 3 (35:11):
Said so we can move on to other depressing topics.
Speaker 1 (35:13):
Well, we're going to be moving on to the parent
warmer, but I mean, I do wonderabout exploiting people, but I
was talking to a cousin recentlyand as you know, I lost a close
family member to murder when Iwas a child and how it impacts
your life.
And it, it does for generationsand it's, it's kind of like, I
(35:34):
equate it to throwing a stone ina pond and it just has all these
ripples.
I
Speaker 3 (35:38):
Really hope we can talk more about that at some
point, you know, I mean, I knowwe we've talked about it, but
I'm really interested to knowmore about, you know, how that's
impacted your family and how youstill feel that, you know, like
it's in your, kind of in yourfamily, like the culture of your
family.
Um, to me, that's really,really, I don't know.
(35:58):
That's just interesting.
That's a good way to put sad.
And,
Speaker 1 (36:02):
And when I've had this discussion with one cousin
in particular, we talk about,you know, our, I don't want to
even say fascination, but almostlike this addiction to watching
these shows and remembering whenforensic files started in the
nineties.
And so I think that I attributesome of my interest from that,
(36:23):
or maybe a lot of it, I don'tknow.
And also Ann rule,
Speaker 3 (36:26):
I love Ann rule stuff.
I've read a lot of her stuff,but, but that's interesting
cause you have that you havethat really personal connection
like you from when you were achild, when that happens.
So that's, it's almost like justpart of what you can remember,
but that leads me to a biggerquestion.
Like, you know, I mean, okay,our podcast is called beneath
your bed.
And you know, we're talkingabout things that, that really
(36:47):
chill us and, you know, make usfreeze and just feel really
creeped out.
You know, why, why are wetalking about this stuff?
And I think for me, part of it'sreal life can be so, so scary
even just daily life, right?
Just getting through just dailystuff and just the, the mundane
(37:10):
chaos of life and the repetitivenature of, you know, daily
routines and work and all ofthat.
And it's kind of fun sometimesto be scared about something
that's bigger than that.
I think it helps manage some ofthose more mundane worries and
anxieties.
Speaker 1 (37:26):
You would think though it wouldn't be helpful.
I don't know if it's necessarilyhelpful.
I just know that I, you know,I'm attracted to things like
this mystery, just having themystery behind something.
Speaker 3 (37:38):
When I was a kid, I was always a morbid melancholy
kid and I had this littleplastic guitar and I made up
this song called the blackwidow.
And I remember like strumming aguitar and singing the song
about the black, which Iprobably had a bridge on cameo
broach on, um, more about thatlater.
(37:58):
But yeah, like I've always justbeen fascinated, you know, if
like a pet got buried, I wasthinking about, Oh, like, how is
like really
Speaker 1 (38:07):
No one would know by listening to this podcast, but
you actually have some previouspodcast fame.
Oh God,
Speaker 3 (38:14):
Yeah.
You would bring that up withyou.
Speaker 1 (38:16):
Classic is the best ever.
Maybe one day somebody willfigure it out.
Speaker 3 (38:21):
Well, this has been really fun and I can't wait for,
you know, I think there is noend of creepy stuff.
And you know, like you kind ofhinted out, we're going to be
talking about supernaturalstuff, paranormal some true
crime, just really a little bitof whatever
Speaker 4 (38:36):
We're talking about this shit.
Anyway, we might as well do apodcast about it.
Right?
Thank you to everyone wholistens to the best thing you
can do to help us grow is tolike review and subscribe on
iTunes and better yet tweetabout us or post about us on
Facebook.
Tell your friends if you thinkthat they would like us and have
a good night,
Speaker 2 (40:09):
[inaudible].
I'm Jen Lee and I'm Janice Olivan.
And we'd like to welcome you tobeneath your bed, a podcast
where we drag out all thosefears at work, beneath our beds
from the paranormal to truecrime, to the simply strange
along the way, we'll be drinkingcocktails and sharing stories
from our Appalachianupbringings.
There's some people who arealways ready to think the best
of the world and the people init tonight.
(00:21):
We'll tell the story of whathappened when one such nice guy
opened his home to a mysteriousstranger.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
How are you?
Speaker 1 (00:41):
I'm doing well.
How are you?
I'm glad it's Friday.
Oh, me too.
It's been a week and it's been aweek.
It's been a week trying to getthis podcast off the ground.
We have had more technicalissues this week.
Like it's been the week fromhell.
Anyone who thinks you can justtake your mic and plug it into
the computer.
Yeah.
You can do that, but it is muchharder than it sounds.
(01:04):
Absolutely.
So it's really, I think when wegot on tonight and our sound was
working, everything's going tobe in order.
I was like, yes, we can finallydo this.
Yeah.
Thank God.
And speaking to God, what do youthink of Jerry Falwell jr.
Thank God.
I just saw it actually, justbefore I got on here with you.
Um, I was scrolling throughFacebook.
And what is it?
He had some kind of racy photoor something.
(01:25):
That's come out now.
He's he's been shamed.
Yes.
He had, he posted a photo toInstagram.
I think it was Instagram or oneof his social media accounts.
And he did it by accidentevidently and he standing next
to a young woman who I think shelooks like she's wearing a wig
and they both had their pants onbutton them to end their
(01:47):
stomachs exposed.
So if you can imagine JerryFalwell jr.
With, do I have to yeah.
With his, uh, his stomachexposed hairy belly.
Yeah.
It was kind of hairy.
I think I'm not an expert onmen's Belize, but it looked kind
of hairy to me.
So he also had a drink in hishand and something in the
(02:08):
caption said, this is just blackwater.
Oh my God.
So it looked like it wasalcohol.
Of course.
So for all those petty thingsthat they throw students off
campus for at Libertyuniversity, evidently Jerry
Falwell jr.
Can just do whatever he likes.
Or maybe not.
Now that they've asked him totake a temporary leave of
(02:29):
absence, what's in your highball glass tonight.
I started off making a French 75and then it developed into
something completely different.
I don't even know what you wouldcall it.
I added some, some lemon cello.
I added some st Germain to it.
(02:50):
And I think I added some vodkaas well.
That sounds so delicious,honestly.
Yeah.
So it's not a friend 75 now,does it have champagne too?
Top it off?
I use Prosecco that you hadgiven me before.
So I had it in the fridge and Ithought let's try this.
And with the COVID I don'treally want to go running to the
liquor store.
So I'm trying to use upeverything that's in.
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (03:11):
Well, you're probably going to come up with some
interesting cocktails, justtrying to work through your
stuff.
Speaker 1 (03:15):
Cash.
I have a lot of booze to, to gothrough.
So typically French 75 wouldhave lemon in it and Jen, and
then top with champagne and somesimple syrup in that really
yummy if you haven't had it
Speaker 3 (03:29):
Before I had about a year ago and I loved it, I
bought this really cheap bottleof champagne, like$5 champagne
while really sparkling wine.
Cause I'm sure it was not fromchampagne, Tanya.
Um, but I bought it when I wasin West Virginia.
So I'm going to have to makesomething out of that and be
like an Appalachian French.
Stephanie, I need to moonshotfor that.
Exactly.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
Yeah.
There you go.
In the bar there and asked forthem
Speaker 3 (03:57):
Layer on me.
Okay.
Speaker 1 (04:00):
Yay.
So let's get started tonight.
We're going to talk about thecase of oaky El kite.
And this case takes place inAurora, Colorado on a Saturday,
May 22nd, 2004, 53 year old,Okie El kite picked up his
girlfriend and he took her tothe airport.
Two days later, he didn't showup for work.
And by all accounts, he wasvery, very reliable.
(04:22):
Um, his coworkers becameextremely worried about him.
So they reached out to hissister, Barbara.
They told her that he hadn'tcome into work that morning and
they were worried about him.
Speaker 3 (04:31):
That's never a good sign.
Is it?
It never goes well when theperson doesn't show up
Speaker 1 (04:35):
For me, because sometimes
Speaker 3 (04:38):
You show up for work.
Speaker 1 (04:39):
Oh no, I do.
But sometimes I forget to tellpeople when you know, I'm taking
the day off and I'll get callsor random texts about my, my,
wherever.
I felt my whereabouts.
Speaker 3 (04:49):
That's true.
I think I've done that with youbefore.
Are you okay?
Are you on the line?
Speaker 1 (04:53):
Multiple people have done that with me.
So yeah, unless you're me, thenit's very concerning.
So when they called her sister,Barbara, she was really, really
concerned.
And she told them go to Al'shouse and try to get him to come
to the door and also call thepolice.
So when his coworkers went toAl's townhome, they were not
(05:14):
going to his door calling forhim.
Al never came to the door.
So they call the police and thepolice arrived.
And when they went inside, theyended up going downstairs and
they found Al face down wherehis feet had been bound behind
him and also his arms.
And he was deceased.
One of the things that was mostnotable or stood out, and there
(05:37):
was a lot of things just tostand out.
In this case, his feet wereseverely bruised.
And the coroner report indicatesthat he was most likely tortured
for hours.
What they also found was that hehad, and this just makes me
cringe.
He had knives that have beeninserted into his ears.
He had a knife inserted over oneof his eyes and his throat had
(06:02):
also been cut.
And the first two things youmentioned, like the,
Speaker 3 (06:07):
I don't know, I'm imagining these thin little
knives.
I don't know what the kniveswere actually like, but that
doesn't seem like something thatwould kill you.
It's just amount of torture andthat's, that's horrifying
Speaker 1 (06:15):
Kind of large to me who knows if they were exact
replicas, but anything, a knife,anything above two inches looks
huge to me.
They went upstairs and justgetting that.
Speaker 3 (06:28):
I just, it just takes me a while.
Sometimes
Speaker 1 (06:33):
The one upstairs and in the sink, they found bleach
and water.
And in that were knives.
They look to be knives that werekept at Al's home.
Look to be his own personalknives, kitchen knives.
Speaker 3 (06:45):
Damn.
That always pisses me off.
I have to say, when people getkilled by their own shit, you
know,
Speaker 1 (06:50):
Freaks me out, just looking at the knife block,
where we keep our knives and itjust gives me the creeps.
Especially if I'm by myself.
Speaker 3 (06:56):
I felt that too.
I'm glad I'm not the only one.
This is
Speaker 1 (07:00):
Illuminating.
Yeah.
When I'm alone, uh, that really,really scares me for whatever
reason.
Wow.
I didn't know that about younow.
You know?
And then also things beingbeneath my bed.
Yeah.
Someone looking in the windowthat was super freaky to me.
So in the bleach, they alsofound a drinking glass.
(07:21):
They found keys to Al's townhomeand they also found a honing
rod.
So what's the honing rod.
Well, if you have that, I don'teven know what the proper term
is from the block that you keepyour knives in
Speaker 3 (07:35):
A lot of sharpen.
Like, do you sharpen your knifewith it?
Speaker 1 (07:38):
Exactly.
Like I've tried to use it beforeand I don't know what I'm doing.
It never seems to work.
So it just, just stays there.
It never goes any place.
So yeah, it was one of those.
It was a honing rod and thepolice found one drop of single
source DNA, meaning it belongedto just one person.
(07:59):
It was a mixed with ALS on thesteps.
And when the detectives weregoing through the house, they
fingerprinted almost everything.
And it just, it came up withnothing.
And they also, after usingluminol, they picked up where
the killer had taken a showernow and ELLs,
Speaker 3 (08:19):
Luminol picks up blood.
Right.
It, it shows blood kind ofglowing.
Speaker 1 (08:23):
Exactly.
So if you, there was pronouncedevidence of what it would show
up on when you use luminol, butif you didn't use it, I guess
you wouldn't be able to see it.
Speaker 3 (08:32):
But so the blood was probably Alison, I guess, in the
shower, like the blood that hehad on him from him.
Speaker 1 (08:37):
Yeah.
Okay.
Yeah.
It would totally have to be histo carry out the kind of crime
he would have been covered inblood.
So he evidently stayed quitesome time at Al's house.
And what's significant about thekeys is that Al had a roommate,
he was going to run out the roomand his, in his townhome and
(09:01):
whoever the roommate wasimmediately shot to the top of
their list because they saw thekeys.
Yeah, of course.
Now Al's girlfriend, Linda.
The last time she saw him, hedropped her off at the airport
and they had just started thisnew relationship and they were
calling each other girlfriend,Hey girlfriend, Hey boyfriend.
And all that sweet cutesy stuffat the beginning, you remember
(09:25):
that?
She called him later at aroundthree 30.
And she was saying that when shetalked to him, he seemed very
reserved, you know, very flat,not his, you know, usual
outgoing, jovial self.
So there's speculation thatperhaps a killer could have been
there at that time.
(09:46):
The killer had filled out thisor the suspect had filled out
this rental application for Aland everything on it was false
except for a phone number.
And when Linda met him, she hadcome by Al's house.
So he came upstairs or he'slike, Oh, do you want to meet,
you know, my potential roommate?
(10:07):
She's like, yeah, I do.
But I have to run to thebathroom.
So she goes to the bathroom, shecomes back and as she came back
and she wasn't gone long, shesaw this Robert Cooper, Birdly
leaving the house.
Didn't turn around.
Didn't say hello.
Didn't say bye.
Speaker 3 (10:22):
So it was kind of like he was trying to avoid her.
Maybe he didn't want
Speaker 1 (10:26):
That's what, that's what she thinks.
So she only saw the back of himand maybe the side profile.
She said that he had dark curlyhair.
He seemed to be average billed,but he was also nicely dressed.
And she said that he carried acane, which is super creepy to
me.
Yeah.
If he didn't need one.
So when they ran the blood incodas, it didn't come up with a
(10:46):
hit.
But later through furthertesting, they determined that
this blood belonged to someonewho was from the Balkan region,
which is, you know, Albania,Bosnia, Romania would be
another.
And by all accounts, Al was areally nice guy.
And that factors in to his, hismurder as well, in what way over
(11:09):
and over and over again, that'show people described him.
He was nice.
He was really, really nice.
He was a nice person.
And since he was picked tocommit this crime against
speculation is that he waschosen because he was nice.
He would never suspect someonecapable of doing anything.
So heinous, I mean, who would
Speaker 3 (11:31):
Exactly, but he would never be able to imagine that
this guy who's, you know,filling out an application to be
his roommate could be asociopath.
He would never, he's not goingto think badly of him,
Speaker 1 (11:42):
Nice people when bad things happen or people do bad
things to them.
They don't see it coming.
I think because it would neveroccur to them to do such a
thing.
And especially what to him, Imean, it's just, I've, it's the
most brutal I think killing I'veever heard.
Speaker 3 (11:59):
Yeah.
It's horrifying.
It also seems strange to methat, I mean, it seems like
overkill for sure.
Like, you know, the guy, thewhoever, Robert Cooper, whoever
this guy is is, is having a goodtime.
Like he's playing with him.
Speaker 1 (12:13):
Yeah.
They say that later that he'sreally seemed to enjoy it.
A lot of the information we gotoff the Paul holes show, the DNA
of murder was one of the sourcesfor this, where a lot of the
information came from and he hadan array of resources at his
fingertips that other people ordetectives I think would not
have had.
(12:34):
So when to the, the course ofthe detectives research,
detective Sobieski, who has beenon the case for a very long
time, they found out thateverything on the application of
course was false.
The name, the address issecurity number.
And they, there was their phonenumber.
They eventually found a phonenumber.
(12:54):
I believe they found that at hisand his work and they call the
number and it ended up ahomeless man.
I picked up the phone.
It was a burden
Speaker 3 (13:03):
With a burner phone though.
I'm just curious, like, so hehad discarded the phone
somewhere and somebody picked itup.
Is that what happened?
Speaker 1 (13:09):
Yes.
Yes.
He had discarded the phone andsomeone had picked it up.
Okay.
So the detectives think thatthey're going to catch a break,
even though it's a burner phone,because they can maybe trace
some calls that he made.
And the ended up, he did makemore than one call and he made
multiple calls to people.
They're all people who placedadvertisements in newspapers for
(13:33):
roommates.
Speaker 3 (13:33):
God, I'm never doing that.
You've not allowed to do thateither.
Speaker 1 (13:38):
It's his house with a townhome.
When you go downstairs, it's thesmall bedroom, the small area
that he was renting.
And you would think a townhomewould be a very bad place to
commit this type of crime,especially it was planned out
because you know, you're sharinga wall, but if you saw the room,
you would see that it was veryisolated.
(14:00):
It looked like, you know, youwouldn't be able to hear
something like that going on.
There was a window, but it ledup to a great, so even the
window wasn't even ground level.
So, and then also when you camedown the steps, it looked like
there was, you could make aright and that could possibly
take you into another room orwho knows maybe a storage area
(14:22):
or garage.
I'm not sure, but I looked at itmore closely and it wasn't just
that one room down there.
It looked like there wassomething else.
They released two sketches.
One to me closely resembled thedescription that Linda had given
and another didn't.
The other one just was like abasic, I don't know.
(14:43):
It could have been anybody.
Speaker 3 (14:46):
Male face.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Just nothing that stood abouthim.
The other
Speaker 1 (14:52):
One, the features to me seem more distinct.
Okay.
What investigators also foundwas that he had used ALS card
taken out, I believe a thousanddollars and they got pictures of
him.
So this was quite some time ago.
It wasn't video footage.
It was like still pictures.
(15:13):
So it shows him using his cardcan over at the camera, just
very casual and it takes out themoney and he leaves and they
found Al's truck abandoned.
Not far from his home afterthat.
Speaker 3 (15:23):
I mean, this is probably would have been what,
just a few hours after themurder,
Speaker 1 (15:27):
If he was at the house for a number of hours, who
knows, uh, if he had to cleanup, he had to take a shower.
Speaker 3 (15:33):
You know, I know there's no way of ever knowing
this, but it just makes mewonder, did Al have any
misgivings about this guy?
I mean, we have to assume, Iguess he didn't because he was
willing to rent the place tohim, but it just makes you
wonder, I mean, did Linda eversay that Al said anything to
her?
Like, Hey, this guy's a little,you know, a little weird,
anything like that?
Speaker 1 (15:53):
No, she didn't say that at all.
What Al did say to her was thatwhen he had come to look at the,
the room and he had heard outthe door, I'll had said to her,
I made a comment, like he's notinterested in a room anymore.
Oh.
And Linda thinks, and this makesperfect sense.
Is that when the renter came totake a look at the room, he
(16:19):
didn't expect Linda to be there.
Yeah.
So he probably told Al you know,just forget it, whatever.
I don't, you know, I'm not goingto do this.
Well, I believe a couple ofweeks later, he actually gave Al
he filled out a rental agreementand he gave out$250, like is a
down deposit.
And then part of the nextmonth's rent.
(16:40):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (16:41):
You know what puzzles me too though.
You know, you said somethingabout how he may be.
He was put off of it when herealized, okay, maybe Linda's
around, you know, I'll maybe hehas this girlfriend who's coming
over, but why wouldn't you bebetter than one?
Like if he really wants to killsomebody, why doesn't he want to
kill a couple?
It's not like, I mean, I don'tthink Linda probably would have
been able to put up a big fight.
(17:02):
You know?
I mean, it's going to be harderto take on a man than a woman in
most cases.
So that's just strange to me.
It's
Speaker 1 (17:09):
I suppose it would just be more challenging.
And too, it's interesting thathe picked a man.
He didn't pick a woman, but whatyou'll find out is after
detectives get this burnerphone, Trey, some calls thinking
that they can somehow trace itback to this guy.
What they found is that he mademultiple calls, but they were
(17:31):
all to people who place ads inthe paper for roommates.
And one was a woman, a professorwho taught, I believe it was
Denver university.
Aurora is like right outside ofDenver.
And she taught Romanian and shedetected a slight Romanian
accent.
That proves to be very, veryimportant.
But she, so when he came to lookat her home that instantly, she
(17:54):
just wanted them out.
She wanted him to leave.
He wasn't really asking her anyquestions or talking to her.
He was pacing around.
He was looking out the windowsand she said, she just wanted
him out.
Speaker 3 (18:06):
This was evil.
Speaker 1 (18:08):
And if you go back to all accounts about Al you hear
this over and over and overagain is that he was just a nice
guy.
He was such a nice guy.
Every description you heard ofhim was just talking about what
a nice likable person he was.
So when you think about, you hadasked maybe why he didn't kill a
couple or go for somebody else,like, why didn't he go for this
(18:30):
woman, this professor, whydidn't he go for her?
And one of the things that wastheorized is that because she
was uncomfortable with him,maybe she asked him too many
questions.
You know, she sensed that therewas something off about him that
he wanted to choose somebody whoguard would be on and they
wouldn't expect it.
(18:51):
They said that it did not appearthat there was a sexual assault.
So this wasn't based on, youknow, a sexual motive sounds
like an Al he found the perfectvictim just because he was such
a good trusting
Speaker 3 (19:03):
And nice person, kid, you know, this Robert Cooper,
whoever he is, he could pick upon that and tell that this is a
person who was never going tosuspect.
And yeah, I mean, he'd just comeget into my home, you know, make
yourself comfortable.
And it's like, uh, you know,when you think about that, it's
like a lock and a key perfectvictim, perfect perpetrator.
(19:25):
They just fit.
But in such a terrible way,
Speaker 1 (19:28):
It's just frightening.
And to think that he would be soconfident to, to choose a man.
But if you look at the, if youlook at the home, it looks like
it's, uh, I, I imagine it's asplit for your type situation.
Cause if you go downstairs theroom that he was going to rent,
it appeared to be on theleft-hand side.
It was a very small room andthere was a window.
And you would think, well, whywould someone commit such a
(19:50):
terrible crime, you know, in atownhome?
Cause you have a joining.
Yeah.
Well, once they looked at it, ifyou look closely at the room,
you'll see that there's only onewindow and that doesn't even
lead like right out to, it wouldnot be easy to exit through that
window.
You would have to go through agrade.
So the window wasn't even, youknow, eye level.
(20:13):
And it would have been theperfect place to do this.
Some of the information that Igot researching this came from a
show that was from 2006 and itwas called sensing murder.
Can you guess what
Speaker 3 (20:27):
That was about murder?
Um, psychics kind of like tryingto, Oh my mum.
Right.
Speaker 1 (20:37):
And this show, I don't know how long the show had
been on I'm guessing at least acouple seasons Al's sister
Barbara had reached out to themand asked that they would cover
Al's case.
So it was two women psychics, assoon as like a lot of psychics
are women
Speaker 3 (20:54):
Or gay men.
It's that female intuition thatwe have.
Speaker 1 (20:58):
Well, I didn't think they had much of an intuition.
I'll get to that and just dosecond.
So the detectives needing leadsand wanting to solve this case.
And then also because his sisterBarbara had reached out to the
show and I'm guessing to them,they agreed to show the two
psychics, the crime scene.
And at the time it wasn't justdetective Sobieski.
(21:20):
That was working on the case.
It was a, a female detective too.
And that was back in 2006 withtwo years after it happened.
And I do believe in psychics orsome people have that ability,
but I'm very, very skeptical.
And with these two, they wereasking the investigators a lot
of stuff about the crime.
(21:41):
So they're asking him and theother female detectives, they
took them one, went with onepsychic and the other one with
another psychic.
So it wasn't ever four of themtogether in a room.
It was two and two.
So the psychics each to me,especially one would say, I
think that maybe I sentsomething with his head.
(22:03):
And then the look at thedetective looking for some type
of affirmation, I think therewas some type of trauma to his
body.
No bitch, no they called you.
Or you recalled to ask toprovide your input.
They're not supposed to tell youexactly what happened.
You're supposed to be helping.
They're just trying to read thebody language.
And yeah, that's what I thinktoo.
(22:25):
I don't know if you remember thepsychic that was very famous.
He was always on MontelWilliams, Sylvia Brown.
I remember her with SylviaBrown, especially when I notice
with her was that she was sorude to people like people would
ask her about missing childrenor about the relationships with
her children, what they shoulddo.
And she would just be veryreluctant.
(22:46):
She also consulted, I believe onthe Shawn Hornbeck case where he
was kidnapped and his parentshad looked for him for years and
years and years.
And everybody just assumed thathe had passed.
Um, they went to her and she waslike, you know, he's dead.
Just really offensive.
Just seem mean spirited.
So anytime I see someone likethat, and they're immediately
(23:06):
trying to shut someone down orlike take somebody's last hope
or trying to, you know, get themto move along and not allow them
to ask for the questions.
Then I find that very suspect,
Speaker 3 (23:18):
What kind of thing, psychics by the time they make
it, when they're on the Oprahshow or whatever, you know,
these people were on, it's moreof a, it becomes more of an
entertainment thing than thereal deal.
I think, I feel like probablythe best psychics aren't out
there making, making the circuitof all these talk shows.
Speaker 1 (23:35):
I feel the same way that they wouldn't be out there
doing that, that they would justbe, you know, offering their
services or, you know, notnecessarily for free, but, or
just doing it privately.
Speaker 3 (23:46):
You know, I think sometimes law enforcement, they
feel a little, they don't evenwant to reveal that they're
using psychics.
So I think a lot of times it'son the low, at least from what
I've understood from readingabout different cases and things
like that.
Speaker 1 (23:57):
But I think the sister, again, she's the one who
reached out.
So I think they were justprepared to give anything
Speaker 3 (24:04):
At this point because they understand the case is
still unsolved right.
To this day.
Speaker 1 (24:10):
Yeah.
It's still unsolved with Paulholes back to his show.
He had a lot of resources at hisdisposal that these detectives
did not seem like they had.
And Paul holes is the one whosolved the golden state killer.
And then Michelle
Speaker 3 (24:25):
McNamara wrote, wrote about, yeah,
Speaker 1 (24:28):
Yeah.
There's a series on sedation.
Speaker 3 (24:30):
Yeah, it is.
And then her book came out, Ithink what 2018 after her death
actually.
Yeah.
I've watched the series.
It's amazing.
Speaker 1 (24:37):
Yeah.
I'm just starting, I'm only onepisode.
I think maybe three finished.
You're desperate
Speaker 3 (24:42):
With them for, for a treat.
I, I watched the last episodeand it was just, I was just
really deeply moved by itactually.
You know, I think that her storygoing to give anything away, but
intertwined with her search forthis killer.
And I don't know, I think thatthe show does a really good job
of laying out these differentthemes and kind of everything.
I think you'll find thateverything comes together in the
(25:03):
last episode in a reallyinteresting way.
So
Speaker 1 (25:06):
Hopefully I'll finish the rest of it this weekend.
But so far I think has beenexcellent.
So he's the detective that hadsolved that particular case and
it had gone and solved fordecades and they used, he used
DNA, but it was through likegenealogy, the single source
DNA, the blood drop that theyfound on the steps.
(25:26):
The detectives found on thesteps just belonged to the
suspect or the murderer didn'tbelong to Al that's gonna play
into this later.
The bindings that Al was boundwith were just really elaborate.
So when you hog tie someone forlack of better terms, you know,
it's putting your risk behindyour back and then also your
(25:48):
feet behind your back.
Well, with these bindings, theywere unique because they also
bound all the way up to hisupper arms and the knots were
tied unusually.
So Paul holes enlist this experton binding.
Well, what Paul holes also didis that he reached out to
someone who is a civilianintelligence analysts and she
(26:11):
develops cultural profiles.
What they find out who thecivilian analyst is, she
developed this profile and shesaid that the type of feet,
meaning where Al's feet werereally, really ruse is called
Flocka.
And it's used by the Hezbollahand Turkey.
It's not, she said it wasn't aterrorist organization.
So I guess it's somehow distinctfrom some of the others.
(26:34):
Um, I don't know how, but shedidn't really go into that,
which would have been helpful.
But anyway, she said thatphiloso was common to this group
and it's used to extract orcompliance.
And do you remember the honingrod in the sink?
She said that that rod couldhave been used or most likely
used to beat his feet.
And that's why there was asevere,
Speaker 3 (26:55):
No, but you're not going to kill someone by beating
their feet.
So that sounds like just pure,pure torture.
I mean,
Speaker 1 (27:01):
I feel like it was just done for the pure enjoyment
of it.
Nothing else, just that when shewas talking about the Turkish
Hezbollah being known for thephilosophy, she said that they
would bind people in a similarmanner how Al was found.
So they were known for theirunique brand of torture.
(27:24):
I didn't look, um, I went toamnesty international and they
indicated that philosophy isalso used by the police.
So this guy could be a lawenforcement.
So in law enforcement.
Yeah.
And it didn't really say that inthe show, but evidently it's
could have been a policeofficer.
What she went on to explain wasis that again, if you remember,
(27:46):
Al's killing took place in 2004,one, the early two thousands,
there was a big flow of trafficfrom places like Romania to
Turkey, because there was a drawfor jobs and education,
especially in the in stand bullarea.
And when Turkish Hezbollah wasgetting too powerful, the
Turkish government began acrackdown.
(28:06):
So people were ever, you know,or either round it up or they
escaped.
So everything's falling intoplace, the Romanian accent, the
blood, the single source DNA, orthat said that the person was
probably from the Balkan region,all these pieces are falling
into place.
So the killer could haveimmigrated to the us.
They could have slipped it
Speaker 3 (28:26):
Maybe less to like, right.
Cause you think like whatbrought him to Aurora of all,
you know, you could have goneanywhere.
Presumably.
Speaker 1 (28:33):
Yeah.
It's so random.
Um, so yeah, I think there's areally good possibility that he
could, could've been going toschool there, I guess, has
gotten some leads becausethey're working with relatives
to build a family tree, youknow, hoping to identify this
man.
So it's the same method thatPaul holes used to catch the
(28:55):
golden state killer.
Speaker 3 (28:55):
I feel like, you know, DNA does not lie and more
and more people are signing upon these genealogical sites all
the time.
I mean, actually I have a 23 andme kit that was given to me and
I haven't done yet, but youknow, you just think people are
always being added.
It's just, it's building andbuilding.
So yeah.
Chances are good.
It seems to me that they mighteventually find this guy
Speaker 1 (29:18):
I'm too paranoid to, to do that.
I know of other people have doneit too, but I just don't want
anybody to have my DNA and thenthey take it and they'd sell it
off.
And you know, they can sell thatinformation off to any company.
What do they, you know, sell itto insurance companies.
You don't know, but you know,that is just me.
Speaker 3 (29:34):
Brian has done it.
Basically.
He found out he's like a hundredpercent Irish for whatever
that's worth, but he's found allof relatives through it.
And
Speaker 1 (29:43):
You know, he's really good at tracing his genealogy.
Anyway,
Speaker 3 (29:47):
I think it's, I wouldn't not do it.
I keep meaning to do it.
Um, and I haven't done it, but I, I know what you mean.
It's kind of invasion of privacykind
Speaker 1 (29:54):
Of stuff.
Yeah.
But it's fascinating.
Speaker 3 (29:57):
Like if they do end up catching him, you know, you
think, okay, there was a onedrop of blood and then how that
can be used to extract DNA andthen they do this, I guess,
really forensic genealogy.
So I don't know.
I wonder if they're going tocatch him, it's such a long time
ago now, you know, Cod 2004.
That's what 16 years
Speaker 1 (30:15):
It is.
And the person, you know, verywell might not even be in the U
S any longer or even be
Speaker 3 (30:20):
Alive, although it didn't sound like he was an old
Speaker 1 (30:23):
Man.
No, no, it didn't.
And the first time I saw thiscase, it was on, I believe
America's most wanted, I triedto go back and find it, but I
couldn't.
And I remember just being sosorry.
Speaker 3 (30:35):
Yeah.
And I was, I was actuallywondering like, what, what is it
about this case?
I mean, it is, it is horrifying,you know, all the details in the
torture, but I'm just curious,like what about it?
You know, there's so manyhorrifying cases, like what
about it just really gets toyou?
Speaker 1 (30:49):
Well, it's in your own home, which based on
forensic files and all the showsthat I've watched, you know, it
wouldn't be necessarily thatunusual, the knife being used
that always freaks me out.
Yeah.
When I'm home alone, I don'tlike to have that featured
prominently on my calendar.
There have been times I'veactually taken the nights out
(31:10):
and I've put them in thedrawers.
Yes,
Speaker 3 (31:12):
Yes.
My luck I'd be hit with like amud LER.
You know, he used to make mydrinks like knock, knock me down
Speaker 1 (31:18):
Senseless.
That would be a much better,much better way.
So I think it's because, youknow, in your own home, the
knives from your kitchen, ayou're it's happening to a man,
a man being overpowered likethat.
Yeah.
And then also it was just donebecause they like doing it.
I mean, maybe this was a personthat was involved in torture and
(31:41):
Turkey and since they had toflee the country, they lost that
connection and they enjoyed it.
So he just wanted to be able to,
Speaker 3 (31:50):
Again, if there are other victims they did, did they
mention that at all, that theycan link this to any, any, any
other crimes?
Speaker 1 (31:57):
No, no.
There was no
Speaker 3 (32:02):
Doing it once is not going to be enough.
You know, you're going to haveto have a regular diet of this
to, to get you through, butweird if he did it once and then
was able to, somehow
Speaker 1 (32:12):
It makes you wonder if the person is still in the
country.
Um, there was one other case.
I can't remember what state orwhat time it was.
It was kind of similar, but ithappened to a realtor, but I
can't remember the specifics ofthe case, but it doesn't sound
like it's the same one.
There were some similarities.
So to me, it's someone who wasonly in the U S for a certain
(32:34):
period of time and then movedon.
And if people were being drawnfrom Romania or the Balkan
region to Turkey for educationin, in Stan bowl, that was a big
draw.
Maybe, you know, they continuedtheir education at Denver
university.
Cause Aurora is just rightoutside of Denver.
And I believe that's where thewoman, one of the potential
(32:54):
landlords where she was at thatuniversity.
Speaker 3 (32:58):
And I think part, part of what's creepy about it
to me is the, like what seems tobe randomness.
But then on the other hand,isn't really random.
I mean, I, don't not that hemaybe had a vendetta for Al, but
he Al was kind of like wediscussed this already, but the
perfect victim, right.
He was very trusting.
He didn't have his guard up, butI don't know.
It just that the randomrandomness of it
Speaker 1 (33:21):
Talked about too, about, you want to show like
this and your life is justreduced to this crime.
You know, it was very onedimensional other than, you
know, hearing descriptions ofhim being a nice guy.
And obviously he was loved, butyou know, you live a whole
entire lifetime and that's whatyou're reduced to, and that's,
what's remembered about you
Speaker 3 (33:40):
And think about that in terms of even talking about
murders or true crime, I thinkthe whole true crime industry.
Um, and I guess we're, we'repart of it now, since we're
talking about this, but youknow, it has that, that kind of
questionable seamy undersidethat, you know, why are we, are
we, um, uh, I don't know whatthe word is, um, fascinated or
(34:02):
attract, are we somehowcapitalizing on somebody's death
for entertainment?
I mean, there's no question thatit's entertainment, right.
Murder.
I mean, I think true crime bookssell like crazy.
They're how I think you couldlose count of all the true crime
podcasts and, and shows on, butthere's something about it that
(34:22):
we just can't look away from.
It,
Speaker 1 (34:24):
Especially women, evidently it's a huge industry
with women.
And I, I, I kind of look at itin terms of, it's almost like an
adult ghost story.
Speaker 3 (34:35):
Yeah.
That makes a lot of sense.
An adult go story.
Speaker 1 (34:39):
When I was a kid, we used to love to, when we had
sleepovers to tell ghoststories.
And to me, it's kind of like a,an adult ghost story and yes, I
think about people profiting or,um, somehow
Speaker 3 (34:51):
People like kind of getting off on like the misery
of what's happened to somebodyelse.
Is that what you mean?
Like,
Speaker 1 (34:57):
We like to talk about it.
I mean, here we are talkingabout this actually re after
researching it, it started tomake me kind of depressed and I
thought, Oh, I hope we getthrough this episode so we can
move on to something elsebecause this one's right.
Speaker 3 (35:11):
Said so we can move on to other depressing topics.
Speaker 1 (35:13):
Well, we're going to be moving on to the parent
warmer, but I mean, I do wonderabout exploiting people, but I
was talking to a cousin recentlyand as you know, I lost a close
family member to murder when Iwas a child and how it impacts
your life.
And it, it does for generationsand it's, it's kind of like, I
(35:34):
equate it to throwing a stone ina pond and it just has all these
ripples.
I
Speaker 3 (35:38):
Really hope we can talk more about that at some
point, you know, I mean, I knowwe we've talked about it, but
I'm really interested to knowmore about, you know, how that's
impacted your family and how youstill feel that, you know, like
it's in your, kind of in yourfamily, like the culture of your
family.
Um, to me, that's really,really, I don't know.
(35:58):
That's just interesting.
That's a good way to put sad.
And,
Speaker 1 (36:02):
And when I've had this discussion with one cousin
in particular, we talk about,you know, our, I don't want to
even say fascination, but almostlike this addiction to watching
these shows and remembering whenforensic files started in the
nineties.
And so I think that I attributesome of my interest from that,
(36:23):
or maybe a lot of it, I don'tknow.
And also Ann rule,
Speaker 3 (36:26):
I love Ann rule stuff.
I've read a lot of her stuff,but, but that's interesting
cause you have that you havethat really personal connection
like you from when you were achild, when that happens.
So that's, it's almost like justpart of what you can remember,
but that leads me to a biggerquestion.
Like, you know, I mean, okay,our podcast is called beneath
your bed.
And you know, we're talkingabout things that, that really
(36:47):
chill us and, you know, make usfreeze and just feel really
creeped out.
You know, why, why are wetalking about this stuff?
And I think for me, part of it'sreal life can be so, so scary
even just daily life, right?
Just getting through just dailystuff and just the, the mundane
(37:10):
chaos of life and the repetitivenature of, you know, daily
routines and work and all ofthat.
And it's kind of fun sometimesto be scared about something
that's bigger than that.
I think it helps manage some ofthose more mundane worries and
anxieties.
Speaker 1 (37:26):
You would think though it wouldn't be helpful.
I don't know if it's necessarilyhelpful.
I just know that I, you know,I'm attracted to things like
this mystery, just having themystery behind something.
Speaker 3 (37:38):
When I was a kid, I was always a morbid melancholy
kid and I had this littleplastic guitar and I made up
this song called the blackwidow.
And I remember like strumming aguitar and singing the song
about the black, which Iprobably had a bridge on cameo
broach on, um, more about thatlater.
(37:58):
But yeah, like I've always justbeen fascinated, you know, if
like a pet got buried, I wasthinking about, Oh, like, how is
like really
Speaker 1 (38:07):
No one would know by listening to this podcast, but
you actually have some previouspodcast fame.
Oh God,
Speaker 3 (38:14):
Yeah.
You would bring that up withyou.
Speaker 1 (38:16):
Classic is the best ever.
Maybe one day somebody willfigure it out.
Speaker 3 (38:21):
Well, this has been really fun and I can't wait for,
you know, I think there is noend of creepy stuff.
And you know, like you kind ofhinted out, we're going to be
talking about supernaturalstuff, paranormal some true
crime, just really a little bitof whatever
Speaker 4 (38:36):
We're talking about this shit.
Anyway, we might as well do apodcast about it.
Right?
Thank you to everyone wholistens to the best thing you
can do to help us grow is tolike review and subscribe on
iTunes and better yet tweetabout us or post about us on
Facebook.
Tell your friends if you thinkthat they would like us and have
a good night,
Speaker 2 (40:09):
[inaudible].
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