219 - Predictability, Balance & Joy: Dr. Adam Hazlett on Burnout Recovery and Neuroinclusive Living

In this episode of Beyond Chronic Burnout, host Carole Jean Whittington sits down with Dr. Adam “Dutch” Hazlett, professor, disability inclusion expert, and Fulbright Specialist in Education, to explore his PB&J framework—Predictability, Balance, and Joy—a practical guide to supporting neurodivergent individuals in moving beyond survival into true thriving.

Together, they discuss: 🌱 How Predictability, Balance & Joy create the foundation for burnout recovery 🌱 Why compassionate curiosity is the key to authentic self-discovery 🌱 The impact of late identification and learning to embrace your neurodivergence 🌱 How micro-accommodations and inclusive design foster healthier communities 🌱 The role of nourishment—internal & external—in sustainable energy

Dr. Hazlett also shares details about the upcoming Neurodivergent Empowerment Conference in Dearborn, Michigan, a space for innovation, connection, and building inclusive communities.

✨ About the Guest: Dr. Hazlett is a renowned neurodiversity and inclusion expert, a tenured humanities professor at Henry Ford College, and the host of NACHOS (Neuro-Affirming Conversation Hour for Outreach and Support). He is also the founder of Humanities 101, an autistic-led charitable organization dedicated to redefining “normal” and empowering neurodivergent communities. Learn more about his work: 🔗 Article – The Importance of Resources and Interventions for Mid-Career Autistic Professionals → Read here https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1002/dvr2.70016 

👉 Don’t just guess where you are in burnout—diagnose it. Take the free Spicy Pepper Burnout Quiz and unlock your first custom audio guide with strategies personalized to your burnout stage. Take the quiz now → https://energize.whittingtonwellbeing.com/products/courses/view/115574

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
What the secret to thriving as aneuro distinct person wasn't
about fitting in, but about rethinking the rules entirely.
So us right? So today's guest helps built his
life, work and advocacy on one powerful idea.
Normalize. No normal.

(00:21):
I love that. Is that not great?
So welcome back to Beyond Chronic Burnout, the talk show
for autistic women, IDHD women and the helping professionals
who support us. I'm your host, Carol Jean
Whittington and today I am joined by Doctor Adam Dutch
Hazlett, Fulbright specialist, professor, disability inclusion
expert and creator of the Nachospodcast.

(00:43):
And I absolutely adore this guy.He is just fabulous.
You're going to love him. He's so much fun.
We've got to do a couple things together, some conferences and
program that I put on this summer he was a part of.
And I'm telling you, he just lights me up.
He's a total sparkle. Dutch blends deep humanitarian
insights with practical strategies for building truly

(01:05):
inclusive communities. His work invites us to shift
from how do I adapt to how do wecreate spaces where everyone
belongs from the start. I mean, right, novel concept.
How brilliant. But in this conversation today
that I'm having with him, we're going to be exploring his AB and
J framework from neuro inclusionand why it's delicious for more

(01:29):
than one reason. The personal transformation he
experienced post identification and how it's changed his life.
And a groundbreaking conference happening this October in
Dearborn, MI that's all about neurodivergent empowerment.
And I can't wait for him to share about this, because if
you're in the area yet, you're going to want to go, I promise

(01:51):
you. So whether you're here for
personal healing or to create safer, more equitable spaces for
others, you're going to walk away with ideas you can use
right away. So let's get started, my
friends. Step out of the shadows, Fill
the power of eyes. Catch the spark inside you.

(02:12):
Let your spirit fly beyond the chronic burner.
Carol Jeans, your guide find your step deal with a nice joy
on the tide. So wish forward bright and bold
Leave the bird apart behind. In this journey hearts unfold.

(02:36):
How is your sea can find? Welcome to the show Dutch, I'm
so excited to have you here. Thank you, thank you, thank you
for having me. I am glad to be here.
We always have fun when we chat.Yes, they're always interesting.

(03:02):
I love how you said that I was. Just I was saying.
Yeah, I was just saying that I Ias a, you know, I teach
philosophy and, and rarely am I challenge in a conversation.
I remember one of the first one on ones we had and I just was
floored with that closing question and just thinking,

(03:22):
holy, what just happened? But it was amazing.
So yes, interesting is, you know, it's definitely a
positive. I love it.
There's so many things that we have to talk about.
I mean, there's so many opportunities for things to dive
into. Like I am a huge fan of your
Nacho show. It's like every time I can catch

(03:44):
the mornings, it is just like the most fun way to start my
day. I always have a blast.
Thank you. Thank you.
Yeah, I have AI. Have a great time putting it on.
I mean, you could tell you do and it it's really, and the
topics of conversation are just the things that we need to be
talking about more. And what if there's things I

(04:05):
think we really need to be talking about more is your
peanut butter and Jelly framework.
So I love this. I mean, it is so unique, it's
memorable, it's fun. It helps to approach neuro
inclusion in a really affirming way.
So can you walk us through what it is and how it can help

(04:26):
leaders, educators, and even families create spaces where
neurodivergent people don't justsurvive?
But we're like flourishing and and we're driving the car.
We're not like running behind it.
Yeah, thank you. And that's, that is the
important thing, the thriving. And one of the things that I do
with, with my, my classes as a teacher, with my podcast, with

(04:50):
this community space that we build with humanities, one O 1
and nachos is constantly remind the collective humanity that we
are curious beings, that what allows us to thrive as a
collective species is our curiosity.
And so we, I throw all of the various stories that throw

(05:11):
everything on its head, right from physics to, you know, to,
to biology to, to neuro inclusion.
But part of that curiosity is how do we connect and how do we
communicate with those around us, right.
And that curiosity of, of focusing on the needs, the wants
and the desires of not only those around us, but ourselves.

(05:34):
Because, you know, I focus a lotin nachos on self-care.
So the PB and J framework is notso much a step by step process,
it's a relational ethic. I kind of think of it as a, as a
cycle. And as a writing teacher, we
talk about the writing process and we say, well, when you

(05:55):
start, you draft and then you, you, you revise and then you
edit. Then you might have to go back
to the planning phase and then you might edit, skip back to
editing. And I really see the PB and J
framework as that because often we might have two of the three
things we need to survive and thrive, whereas the those two

(06:17):
can can make up for that lack ofthe one.
So this is, this is where the PBand J framework comes in.
And it stands fairly simply, notjust for peanut butter and
Jelly, which again is one of those care tasks that we do for
others, but it's predictability,balance and joy.
And within those three things, within these ideas, we have all

(06:39):
of the various components of basic human communication, those
things that if you look back to when we were in caves using hand
signs, we did so through curiosity, We did so through
care and through a back and forth.
And so that is where that relational ethic kind of comes

(07:02):
in. And it's sometimes hard for us,
especially in the United States,especially in the West, to not
want to look at it as a line. Because even when we talk about
neurodivergence and we talk about spectrums and we talk, we
still see lines. We still see ending points.
We still see sharp edges and corners to turn.
And there are no corners in a circle.

(07:25):
It is one big corner, right? And I'm often told as a teacher,
there are two sides to every story.
And I always say, no, it's a sphere.
There are 360 and then some, right?
And so when we looked at the idea of predictability, balance,
and joy, those are the things that I think all of us would

(07:46):
want in our lives. And again, deceptively simple,
But when we're talking about neurodivergence, it is balancing
the needs of others with the needs of ourselves.
It is balancing the need to havethe laundry done with the need
to rest, the need right to rest,which a lot of people look at it

(08:09):
as a luxury and and again. Well, we can dab them on that
one. Right, I mean those hard, those
hard kind of edge reward and punishment ideas, right.
And so the idea of balance, you know, and, and I think of
cooking, right, the sweet, the sour, you know, the, the, the

(08:32):
given give and take. And if you live in a binary
thinking world, which you know, somebody like myself who's
autistic does to not force myself, but to allow myself to
not have to think either or to allow myself the freedom of a
both. And.

(08:52):
And so when we are looking at, you know, PB and J, right, I
always start with the peanut butter predictability imbalance,
because that's the foundation ofthe sandwich, right?
The bread, right, being the first thing that balance, right,
that, that holds everything together.
Now, predictability, if we thinkabout neurodivergence, that

(09:14):
predictability aspect is one of those things that a lot of us
crave or we avoid depending on which, which, which flavor we
are of neurodivergent. But understanding if we, if
we've got the bread, if we got the balance right, we can
understand that we can give and take.
We, we can read the situation, we can read the behaviors,

(09:36):
communication, not just the words.
We can read the signs as well, balancing both verbal and non
verbal and really start to buildsustenance.
And that's why it's, it's all a bread metaphor.
And I know, you know, I, I, I talk about this a lot, but food,
that's why it's nachos, the podcast food is that unifying
forces humans and the thing thatallowed us to become human,

(10:00):
right, that allowed us to evolveand, and, and it brings us
together. And so when we look at that
substance of predictability, andsome of that as well requires us
to have patience. Pause, right?
All of these, these P words that, you know, I just can't

(10:22):
help because the alliteration, but but my, my brain thinks
about that basically on those two alone, balance and
predictability, right? I could survive, I could survive
on peanut butter alone, but it'sthe Jelly.
That's what makes it special. And so that's where the joy

(10:43):
comes in. And that's where presence and
just being in the moment comes in, where we often don't think
that because maybe neurodivergent joy doesn't
present the way that neurotypical joy does, that some
of us are capable of joy. When I go to concerts, even
though if you ever join, if you see me in social media and

(11:06):
there's music, I will be moving,right?
I will be dancing. I have auxiliary percussion
right beside my desk here. I mean, I'm, I'm not lying and,
and, and I'd like to move. But when I go to a concert full
of people who are moving and themusic, my joy presents as focus

(11:26):
nothing but me and the artist. Everything else disappears.
And I stand there still feeling the thump of the music and
everyone thinks he's not enjoying himself.
That to me is such a joyful moment, but I'm not performing
it for everyone. And I I don't now because I go
to concerts with people who understand.
They balance their needs with myneeds, right?

(11:48):
We constantly are working on theidea of PB and J and in in life
it is something that again, I didn't invent or or discover.
It's always been there. I just renamed it, you know,
just defined it as academics do.I put a little needle in it and
said, oh, this is important eventhough everyone else is
overlooking it. This is important.

(12:09):
When I've travelled, when I've explored different cultures,
food and tables have always beenthe best teachers beyond the
classroom and the language models and everything else.
Always been the humans. And even when I didn't speak the
language in some of these places, we were able to
communicate because of that curiosity, because of that need

(12:31):
to understand that moment of feeding and caring.
Simple, basic, but so revolutionary in the 21st
century. I mean, seriously.
And I love that approach and, you know, to kind of think about
it that way really when we come together where we connect the

(12:52):
deepest, where we hear other people's perspectives or maybe
discover something new always around the table.
With them and and it is and and I know I am AI.
May I show love through care. I do tasks for people.

(13:13):
I present gifts like a puppy andsay here, I found this in the
backyard for you. And so when I was building or or
kind of building out this definition, really I wanted it
as a teacher would. I wanted to be something that
would reinforce itself and I thought about it needed to be
everyday. It needed to be commonplace.

(13:33):
It needed to be, Oh my gosh, peanut butter and Jelly
sandwiches. Why do they always taste better
when someone else make same peanut butter, same bread, same.
It could be measured out, but there's a magic to that other
person making the peanut butter.And then I also thought as both
someone who is neurodivergent and someone who cares for

(13:55):
multiple people who are neurodivergent, that the
self-care of caring for others and to remind myself of that
while I'm making a sandwich for someone else.
So while I'm spreading the peanut butter for my child or my
wife, I remember, oh, you know, give yourself balance.
Does this bring you joy? We'll celebrate the joy in this

(14:18):
moment, what you're doing. Because as I often did as a
nerd, divergent person, when I present the gift and they don't
script the way that I was taughtthat one should script after a
gift, I get upset. What did I do wrong?
No, no, no. The joy's in giving.
Period, right, making the gift, doing it and, and, and I don't
even want to be around if you'reeating it like that's fine.

(14:40):
And and this is coming from a former professional chef.
He used to just sit and go, well, how's the food tonight?
Please gush, please gush. Tell me how how wonderful I am,
but I don't now it's about the act of caring more so than the
the feeling of having cared. I think that's something that

(15:02):
sometimes we we get caught up inand it's always seeking this
external place of joy, you know,and it's interesting because I
had this wonderful mentor many years ago.
And I remember in one of the conversations we were having,
she said, happiness will always keep you miserable when you're

(15:26):
seeking it. And I was like, what?
Wait a minute, what are you talking about?
Like my whole world to that point had been, I just want to
be happy, right? And and all the things.
And she goes, no, no, no, no, That's conditional.
It's based on everything that's happening externally.
She's up to joy. Joy is different.

(15:46):
It's like the Jelly, like you talked about.
It's that sweet thing. It's something that's already
ours. It doesn't have to be earned.
There's not conditions on it. It is a state of being and it's
a choice. 100 percent, 100% a state of being in, in, in in may

(16:06):
I even say a state of becoming, constantly becoming right.
And so it's, it's a never, it's a no corner, no end, constant
becoming. But but yeah, it is.
I mean, joy is, it is elusive. It's it's Greek perfection,
right? I mean, the Greek said, here's

(16:26):
perfection, you know, you'll never reach it, but always
strive for it. But I think there's some freedom
in that, in knowing that joy cannot be external.
It can only be internal and, andknowing that you cannot get to a
place where nothing bothers you,You get to a place where you,

(16:51):
you say, OK, that that does bother me and, and, and, and,
and I'm OK with it bothering me right and then and, and not
compartmentalizing, not shoving it in a box under the bed or
something for later. But but you know, and, and it's
elusive, I think, but they say that it's obtainable.
They say that they didn't get there one day.

(17:12):
You, you know, I've studied religion, philosophy.
I was trying to figure it out and none of them had any
answers. No, they don't.
They just have way more questions.
And I think that's the really sort of the beautiful thing.
At least it has been on my end. And it is just simply that when
I'm upset about something, when I'm bothered by something, I
really just started to check in with, oh, it's 'cause I care

(17:35):
about this because it's aligned with my values, it's important
to me. And therefore it bothers me if
it's, you know, not whatever. Yes, and, and, and, and I think
that that's where, right, if you, if you believe what you
know what you were saying about joy.
And I believe that too, that it shines from inside out rather

(17:58):
than outside in. Well, if, if, if your, if your
lights off and you're shining itout, right, you're going to,
you're going to get that back. And my mother always used to say
that. And I always thought that's
weird. But but then I read the
philosophy and then I read the books and I started going, Oh my
gosh, they're saying the same thing she is.
They're saying the same thing Mama always said.

(18:20):
Because it's like I said, deceptively simple.
I think sometimes we, we want itto be hard.
We need it because like you said, it's so elusive.
It's it's something you know andso, well, of course I would have
gotten it already if it were so easy to get.
Oh, there, there's just so much that we can unpack in that and

(18:42):
it's like we need a whole other episode for it.
But there's this place of, you know, within my work and
research, you know, when you talk about the presence in the
PB and J, you know, predictability, all of those
things that is the 4th root of an optimum steady state.

(19:02):
And it is predictability structure, order routine.
And it was interesting because in my research, when we pressure
tested this with our, our participants, we looked at how
does that order structure, predictability show up with you
externally in your environment, but how does it show up for you
internally when those things aredisrupted?

(19:24):
And this was the only one out ofthe top five where it was
equally important to have internal and external, you know,
right. And it just seems like, like you
said, it's like, oh, well, that's just so obvious, right?
But how often do we think about that?
And it's in the same way with joy, you know, that external
versus internal because #5 routeto an optimum steady state is

(19:49):
play, joy, and laughter. And it was interesting because
when we looked at it from that conscious perspective, it was
#183.3% of respondents said, This is why I'm burning the heck
out. I don't have plagio and
laughter. And then when we did it from the
unconscious somatic perspective and we pressure tested it, it

(20:10):
was oh, plagio and laughter. But it's #5 there were some
other things that that were heavier dreams on our energy or
that really boosted us. What was interesting was that
that's just simply was telling us that even on an unconscious
level, our physical body is saying I need joy.

(20:31):
And when we like took the parts and we said, OK, let's look at
joy with other people, let's look at joy with yourself.
It was interesting because it was like, Oh yeah, I really want
the joy with myself. Like I want to be able to feel
joy within myself and my own personal experience.
But there's this extra sweetnesswhen I can share that with

(20:52):
someone else. Yeah, 100 percent, 100%.
And you, when you were saying that, it made me think of George
Bernard Shaw, right? We don't grow old, wait, we
don't stop playing because we grow old.
We grow old because we stop playing, right.
And the idea that it really is, it reflects back what, what we

(21:15):
expect. It's reflected back.
And so if we cannot find, or if we if we can't tap into where we
can find that joy, even if it's not presented as the way society
or as others expect it to, it won't be.
It won't feed our body as joy when it's given to us.

(21:39):
It just won't. And I, and I know that, you
know, early on in my daughter's existence, music was
dysregulating for her. And so I took that away from the
situation and I could have entered it back in, but again,
habit and and in getting sorry, getting away from that sense of
that place of joy, that place where I could.

(22:02):
And even the internal jukebox started to kind of get
unplugged, right. And so even the internal music
started like it was like the footloose town, like nobody was
allowed to dance, nobody was allowed to listen to music.
And and but, but that simple addition back into and I had it
in the car. And then I wondered what, why,

(22:22):
why what, you know, But that simple addition is so easy now
with all of the various, you know, earbuds and everything
else. That simple addition has made
such a difference because my body needed that, my, my brain
needed that. And, and I dare say my soul
needed it because that's where the joy came and always does.
Is that rhythm, that movement, that that music?

(22:45):
We have a, an exercise and, and this wasn't my name.
I this was actually somebody else's in our rapid recharge lab
and it's called joy moves. And it's just this quick hit of
where you play the song that youjust love, the thing that's on
repeat, the thing that just likereally connects with you and you
play it in a way that you experience the vibrational

(23:05):
resonance of this because that'sour nervous system regulating.
Yes. A. 100%.
And it's just so beautiful. Yeah, it is.
It is neuroscience, right? 100% neuroscience.
They it's been proven. It totally is.
And the reason that we bring in the PB and J framework to kick
off this conversation is becausewhen we're talking about

(23:28):
burnout, we're talking about stress.
We're talking about all the things that are heavy and hard
and weighing us down. You know, Dutch, I both approach
this from a playful, fun perspective.
You know, he's got PB and J framework.
I've got the spicy pepper quiz and scale.
I mean, the reason that most of us have been in a long term
burnout experience is from the heavy, the hard and the Super

(23:51):
serious. Like I was the most serious
human in the whole wide world. Because along the way, my joy,
my autistic audio HD joy was wasreflected back to me going,
that's too much. Can you tone that down?
You cannot possibly be that happy, right?
And so all of those things, it'skind of like you were talking

(24:13):
about with the music. I unplugged my joy.
And when we can tap into this PBand J framework, this really is
sort of the gentle, loving, sweet, sticky, but sandwich
between two yummy pieces of my gluten free bread.

(24:34):
And that's just, this is just a really gentle way to begin
looking at what nourishes you. And I love how you take this and
you really look at it from this nourishing perspective.
You know, I always say, look, needs are about not like I need
something like we're moving to get it filled externally, but

(24:55):
it's about what am I receiving that nourishes?
And that's really such a difference.
I mean, the language, the way that it energetically feels when
you say it in your body, I am, Iam undernourished versus I need
that because then it's like something that you will never
attain feeling right. And there's so many things that

(25:18):
happen along the way like this. I love the the, the, the juicy,
yummy, sticky goodness of this PB and J framework because when
we're in burnout and most of thetime, I don't know about you,
but I was like, before I knew all the stuff that I know today,
a decade ago, I just thought I was failing and adulting and
life sucked and it was really hard and I just wasn't figuring

(25:40):
it out. Yes, yeah.
I thought I was living in that old Duncan's commercial where
the guy was like, get up, go to work, go home, go to bed.
And he was like, get up, make the Donuts, go home, go to.
And I like, yeah, I thought that's what you did.
You. You went to work and you wanted
to be home, and then when you went home, you wanted to be at
work. But I didn't really like 'cause
I didn't understand either, right?

(26:01):
Because an adult home looked nothing like what I wanted it to
look like. Which obviously right now is
this my office? Always looked.
This way right it always did in in at at the college or wherever
I taught, but I was never at home.
And now, you know, we we lean into it all around as a family

(26:22):
because again, when the PB and Jand it's something that that I
started with, you know, in smallsteps to implement in the house.
But now we're rethinking even design of the kitchen.
We're thinking, you know, like, like my wife's like, let's take
the cabinet doors off. Those make no sense.
I'm a I'm ADHD. If I can see it, I know it's
there. And I'm like, yes, let's take.
The cabinet I used to exist. Right.

(26:45):
They there were no, there were no doors 100 years ago on the
cabinets. They were open.
That's why Grandma had a curtainto hide her the stuff that she
didn't want to clean up. I mean, I'll.
Just, yeah, just embracing the things that actually support us
and nourish us. What I love, though, is, you
know how you said, OK, this is how it used to be.

(27:07):
This is what I experienced. This was the stuff that was
heavy and hard. I mean, when you look back
before you know what you know, what would you say was maybe the
heaviest or hardest or the belief that you held around who
you were in the world? It was probably based upon

(27:31):
people's reflection, right? Of, of, of me as, as a funny fat
guy, even though I was a kid. I mean, seriously, as a kid, I,
you know, it was the 80s, it wasthe late 70s, early 80s.
So I mean, what was considered fat?
But I look back on those pictures as a kid and I think

(27:52):
about the words that were said to me as a kid.
And in the picture of that kid, I'm going, who would have told
that kid that they were fat? Like that's just nuts.
But then to lock it in, in that very autistic way of of OK,
well, that's, that's, that's right.
And then to then reflect it back.

(28:13):
And so, you know, where do the, you know, and then when you
couple that with, you know, justwith, you know, with a mouth
stim propensity and you know, I still am chewing on, I mean, my
favorite stem now is a Starbuckscoffee stirrers.
I'd jam that thing in my mouth all day.
I'm chewing on. And I'm like just like grandpa

(28:34):
and his toothpick, like, you know, I'm the mouth guy.
Like I would be a toothpick guy,but that's just weird so.
My uncle always said you knew who paid for dinner because it's
the man with the toothpick, whoever had the toothpick.
Why was it always him with the paid?
I like that. See.
Mind blown again? Sit down, Carol Jean.

(28:54):
Mind's blown and it's about toothpicks.
Holy geez. That was from my uncle Bubba.
But hey, but you know it doesn'tmatter.
You passed. You knew enough to know that it
was a gem, right? Fool's gold versus real gold,
right? It's total gem.
But it is, I think that it is. It is one of those things that
when I look back to allow other people to define for me when I,

(29:19):
you know, when, when even thoughthe stories reflected and said
and I and I know that I was teaching to others, don't let
other people define you. And yet here I was being molded,
chipped away at almost like a big piece of of marble till they
were, you know, this is what I expect.
This is what you should be right?

(29:42):
And then my body literally rejecting the person that I had
become, like I was sick. I wasn't good because the body
knew. The body knew, right?
I was under a cover like a, likean FBI agent.
I was undercover for 40 years, right?
And the, and the body was like, well, not 40, but you know, 30

(30:03):
or so when I start masking as a teen and, and the body knew.
And it was like, you can't do this kid.
You can't run this marathon. You're going to give out sooner
or later. Yep, it really does.
And there's so much that oh, like that's so, so relatable.
I don't know if anybody else outthere is relating, but you know,

(30:23):
I'm relating pretty hard over here is that it truly is.
And we're we're carrying the weight of all of those things
that people are quote UN quote, reflecting back to us as to who
we are. And it it's like putting on a
tight pair of blue jeans or the itchiest freaking top you have
ever had and then never being able to take it off.

(30:45):
Yes. And it was so interesting
because I think my body did something so very similar and it
was just, it was when I hit thatpoint in my late 30s, early 40s,
you know, I, I got, I was identified at 39 and 10 months.
I knew I was ADHD, but I didn't know I was autistic.

(31:06):
And, and that answered some things that just ADHD didn't
answer. And it was like, it told me
about two years to process that,that artistic identification.
There was a lot there. And in the meantime, my body
revolted. It literally stopped working.
It shut down. I couldn't even lift my arm to

(31:27):
feed myself. I was bedridden with two little
kids. And it and it happened overnight
because I was in hospital administration running 10 of the
biggest departments. And three days later, I was
incapacitated. It was that fast.
It's just unbelievable how, and I think that's the second phase
of the research when we went to the unconscious and somatic

(31:48):
approach to our nourishment. I think along that line is where
we really our wisdom held withinourselves.
And there is such a huge, I almost call it like the
chrysalis. It was this incubation of being

(32:08):
able to process and integrate this new information because it
was an identity crisis in so many ways.
And I was like, wait a minute, who I thought I was isn't who I
am, which means I believed a whole lot of crud for a very
long time. I need to figure out who I am

(32:29):
and what's real for me. And I know you had this really
powerful post identification transformation and it's really
rooted in what you just shared with us.
You can you dive in, you know, around your own transformation,
you know, the that weight loss, your body really responding,
what unfolded around your identification or shifted for

(32:51):
you? What really, you know, had you
getting the clarity that you have today?
Well, it's it's funny that you had mentioned, you know, it's
like putting on a tight pair of jeans that somebody else gave
you. I always explain to people that
I've, I've shed 200 lbs of clothes that other people made
me wear because it was, you know, for me it wasn't, you

(33:13):
know, it was a slow process. You know, there were, there were
moments in my existence where, you know, I fit the mold, but I
never fit the mold. You know, that whatever the mold
is at the time. And again, in the 80s, in the
the Top Gun Karate Kid era, because I've spoken with my

(33:35):
parents, right? And they've said, you know,
we're so sorry that we, that we pushed you guys to achieve.
And my sister and I both said, absolutely not.
We, we were in the age like whatyou'd like, you would have been,
you know, ludicrous not to push us in the world in which we
existed, right? And, and for me, it was a slow

(33:56):
distancing from myself, you know, for, for me, it was when
you start to, when you, when youput on that shirt of OK, kid,
that's not, that's not mature. Don't do that, right?
And you put that on and you do it sometimes, but you don't let
people see you without that shirt on, right?
You swim in it. You do all those other things,

(34:17):
you know, to continue on the metaphor, but and slowly but
surely my escape, you know, my negative stem beyond chewing
one's nails, right, which you know, I'd get in trouble for.
I get, you know, pain. You know, they put on the little
thing so you wouldn't chew your nails.
You know, the little sour tasting just like a puppy with,

(34:39):
you know, with chewing spray. Well, that nail Polish stuff was
horrible. Yeah, yeah.
Horrible, but I found other waysand, and because of executive
dysfunction in my, in my, later,my, my later teens in college
and stuff, you know, and then that kind of, I was able to stem

(34:59):
with whatever. And it wasn't that I ate a lot.
It was that I was constantly chewing.
I'm when I cut with scissors, mymouth is moving.
You know, it is one of those things that it is, it is one of
those developmental issues that has always been there for me,
never been an issue for me, always an issue that someone

(35:19):
else points out, right? Why does your mouth move like
that when you're doing somethingwith your hands?
And I'm like, what are you talking about?
I was like, Oh, that just, I, it's the only way I can type,
right? And, and for me, it's always
been, it's just a quirk. I know now the neuroscience
behind it. I can connect, I can show you,
but it doesn't matter because itwas who I was and I allowed

(35:39):
myself to get disconnected from it.
And so it's really been for me post identification and and
understanding, I was, you know, seeking a both sensory seeking
and sensory avoiding, right? And so I was seeking both that
stimulation and then that absolute destruction afterwards,

(36:02):
that pain. Oh, I feel horrible.
That's good because you should right?
You know, that that self-destructive kind of thing.
And it wasn't through promiscuity or other negative
action. It was it was food and and bad
social skills, right? It was up in the middle of the
night. It was I prided myself on being

(36:22):
the guy who could be up the latest in, in up first, stay up
latest, you know, the up down, last up first, you know, that
kind of thing. And that is not sustainable.
That was not, and that was something that was given because
I look back on that time and I look back on the people that
ice. If in there's a movie dream, the

(36:45):
actors that would play you that someone else casted, it would be
the Belushi's and the candies and the Farleys and all of that
stuff, right? That's where they put me because
I didn't fit. And so I was kind of funny.
I understood language, I was witty and I had temper issues
because of dysregulation and da da da da da.

(37:07):
So I, it, I kept putting on the shirts and putting on the
sweatshirts and putting it on, putting it on till at, oh, I
don't know, 40. I'm pushing £500.
I'm in a cardiologist office andthey're saying, oh, you're

(37:29):
having an event. They wouldn't say what the what
an event was. Still didn't, but just by
circumstance, there happened to have been an intern or something
in that day with the cardiologist.
Old cardiologist in an old blue collar town and just used to
serve in old hearts. Dude, we have Polish food and

(37:51):
Donuts around here in in an autoline.
What are you talking about? Right.
Hey hearts, I just come in here for maintenance.
We don't want to do anything preventative.
I know you're going to eat the kielbasa, kid.
And so the intern turned around though and came in and said you
shouldn't have. One, I shouldn't be telling you
this, but two, you shouldn't have had that big of a swing

(38:12):
without some kind of chemical intervention.
Like we didn't give you a shot and you went to your numbers
went down like that. That was not physiological.
He knew enough to come back in and go, you shouldn't be at a
cardiologist. You need to seek other help,
right? And so I called my doctor

(38:34):
driving from Flint S to to go tomy doctor about 20 minutes and
they said we can take you on an emergency appointment.
So I go in tears streaming down my face.
I'm literally just come from thecardiologist who were they were
going to hold me there because if my numbers didn't get down,
they were going to admit me to the hospital.
Something was going on. And I go in tears streaming down
my face. And I say I believe now based

(38:56):
upon everything that's going on with my kid and everything that
I know as an educator, I would like to be tested for autism.
And she looked at me and she said, lose 20 lbs and we'll talk
about it. Tears streaming down my face,
full meltdown. And her response was lose 20 lbs

(39:16):
and we'll talk about it. I walked out of there and never
went back. Wow.
And yes. I walked out of there and never
went back. Partially, not only for myself,
but for that doctor, because if my wife would have escorted me
there, it wouldn't have been good for the doctor.

(39:38):
I mean, she's a high school teacher.
She would have wagged a finger. There would have been a hole.
Talking to it would not have been good.
Like you, she there would have been a homework probably.
But yeah, oh, there have been more than that.
Yeah, Oh, I know. But it's.
But yeah, it was, it was gut wrenching and it was.

(40:00):
But luckily my persistent drive for autonomy kicked in and I was
like, oh heck no. Wiping my face as I'm leaving
there. And I was like, I will go.
I will spend my last diamond. I will come back in here with
that piece of paper and I will jam it in your face.

(40:20):
I don't care to now. Couldn't don't even remember
that doctor's name, which I think is is a bigger win then
taking that paper back and jamming it in her face. 10 year
ago me would have thought that was a win.
But Mimi now I know that I know better and and and and not even
remembering her name just like joy.

(40:41):
It just popped up one day and itgo oh you're so inconsequential
I forgot about you. You have no power over me,
Goblin King. I'm like, delete block is gone
out of my brain. It does not matter.
It's inconsequential to my world.
How? How did the transformation like?

(41:03):
What was the linchpin? What was the thing like the
catalyst, the thing that you really when you, when you got
the piece of paper, you know, when somebody just confirmed
what you had already been suspecting and went, Yep, dude,
you're so autistic. You are autistic all day long.
You've always been autistic. This is not something new.
This is going to be you. You are autistic to the day you

(41:24):
die. This is you.
What happened with your body in your mind?
It opened the door to curiosity.I like you said who the heck am
I? Then who the heck am I?
Then what do I like? Am I am IA?
Do I like driving? Do I like taking Rd. trips?

(41:46):
Do I like that type of music? Am I am IA talkative?
Am IA morning. I mean I used to be jump out of
bed in my boots like I was the kid.
It was. Hello everybody, it's good
morning, good to see you. I've now realized post
identification, I need about 1/2hour quiet stuff's going through
my brain and I can do that if I need to.

(42:09):
But that's not the default me. The default me is let's have
some peace and quiet for about 1/2 an hour.
Let my let my engine warm up. I I can go, but it's not good
for longevity, right? You know I can do that.
I can cold start, but I'd ratherwarm up a little bit.
And so it's really been opening that door to curiosity, which

(42:30):
then was like, well, wait a minute.
Well, if I, if I stem with my mouth, what about this habit of
smoking? Oh, well, what about this
eating? Oh, and, and when that started
to be addressed, then there wereother interventions, right, That
my doctors were like, well, thenyou're, you're losing weight
kid. Why don't you, do you know, why

(42:50):
don't we sign you up for this? And why don't we sign you up for
that? And why don't you go to a
dietitian now? And and it at that point, it
wasn't, it wasn't lose 20 lbs. I wasn't doing it for that.
It was curiosity. It was like, oh, I wonder.
And I remember again, post identification, I begged the
University of Michigan. I was like, I need a referral
for occupational therapy. And they're like, why?

(43:13):
And I was like, because it did wonders for my daughter.
They are the best with, with, you know, autists.
I am all for it. They were like, we don't have
anything like that here. Again, one of the best hospitals
in the country. And I luckily had an OT that I
met up with. He was like, well, let's try
some stuff. Let's throw some eggs on the
wall and see what happens. You know, she's like, I can, I

(43:36):
can write you in for three sessions and then the insurance
is going to come back and say, you're an adult.
You don't get that therapy. She was like, so let's try EMDR,
let's try this, let's try that. And so like I'd sit in there for
an hour and a half and I was like just Guinea pig me.
And there was one time I'm on a treadmill and I'm doing this,
this EMDR thing and, and she's like, you look like you're going

(43:56):
to vomit. And I was like, yeah, I feel
like I'm going to vomit. She's like, OK, this, this will
work for you. Let's turn this one off and move
to the next therapy. Then 'cause we were literally
just trying to see how many different ones I reacted to so
that later I could then take it upon myself to check out the
therapies because the infrastructure's aren't there.
So the curiosity in the opening that door and then finding other

(44:17):
people who would experiment withme, right, Would try and go,
what is that? You know, that, that toy, that
fidget that, you know, that new stim.
And so now I'm the one in the Walmart toy aisle checking out
the new stuff. And yeah, I mean like, I've got,
I've got needles on speed dial, man.

(44:40):
I mean, seriously, in every colour and and and texture.
Like I've got this one that's a little more dense.
Oh yeah, look at you and your two sizes.
Right. Like, yeah, I.
Tell this I need two more. I only have the bottom.
But you know, that's what I lovethough.
And and this is a consistent revelation and conversation on

(45:05):
this show around how we get curious and how we want to play
and explore it really. And that is a joyful expression.
And I think somebody was like, play exploration, research, just
Guinea pig me. Let's just see what this does
because I've never allowed myself, I've never asked.
It never mattered if I like something or not.

(45:27):
I was going to knuckle down and do whatever somebody said I was
supposed to do. And what's interesting, and this
is how I come at curiosity, 'cause we can commit curiosity
with like this hard, harsh, judgy part.
But for us, I say we commit curiosity with compassionate
curiosity. We do it playfully, we do it

(45:48):
just without the judge. We just are wondering what will
happen. Yeah, and I that that.
But see, and I think if you haveany kind of judge or any kind of
preconceived bias or anything, it's not curiosity.
It might be experimentation, it might be exploration, but it
isn't curiosity because curiosity is wander.

(46:11):
It's all it is a little it's dumbfounding, right?
You have to be like, I've never like it has to smack you a bit
and it has to, I hate to say it,but it has to in in academic
sense, has to make you feel small.
It has to make you feel smaller than what you're seeing And and
you have to go wow, Why wow? It's like Horton Hears a Who in

(46:36):
the dust back. Yes, right.
It pulls aside and I call it kind of fractal thinking because
I think of it like Doctor Strange, yeah, where he gets in
that kind of fractal world. But when my thinking goes like
that and I can see all of the instances when that has
happened, like post identification where you're
like, oh cool, cool, cool, cool,cool, cool.
All the dominoes fall in line. You're.

(46:56):
Like right? Went on you I missed.
It and you have like the movie picture that's flashing all of
the images. Yes, 100%.
It's like 9000 miles an hour. Yes, and it just puts everything
in perspective in a weird and and my I'm a good friend at
Rutgers said this the most life changing nothing that would ever
happen to me and and it really was the most life changing.

(47:20):
Nothing. Nothing changed.
Just my understanding of me, period.
And then the whole world changedcolor, the whole everybody's,
you know. And so I'm going to chase that
feeling for the rest of my life because that has to be, I've

(47:40):
lived. I've lived half, almost a half a
century now. I've got maybe a half a century
left. It's time to be curious.
Oh it it is. It is past time to be curious.
I mean I'm 51. I plan a living to at least 105.
That's like my minimum. No, I'm down.

(48:01):
I'm down. I'm just like anything I need to
do just in it because there is such awe and wonderment in the
world to me in this place of compassion, city and joy
playfulness, right. So I know that you have taken
all of the things that you've done in your life, your
experiences, the amazing work that you do, your students, and

(48:24):
just the advocacy that you have.And you have this amazing,
fabulous conference you have puttogether that's coming up in
October in on neurodivergent empowerment.
And it's going to be in Dearborn, MI.
And I'm just, I'm so excited. What, what was the spark for
this one? Was the spark in your heart?

(48:45):
Was the sparkly like whiz pop that you went?
We have to do this. I was, I was sitting at a table
with a former student who is nowa medical student and they were
interviewing me just as as, and again, it was, it's a, they said
it was a podcast. I think it was more of a
research project and stuff. And they've got this nonprofit

(49:07):
in Dearborn and they're like, you know, we raise money for
disabled people, you know, abroad in this, you know, in
this community because of our family connection and our
interest in medicine and da da, da, da, da.
And I was like, both You ever thought about putting on
conference? I mean, I like events education.
I was like, you know, I work at the college.
I, you know, and they obviously they knew that because, you

(49:28):
know, former student and I thought, I mean, I thought it'd
be interesting for future doctors to understand how maybe
hard it is to organize somethingfrom the disability perspective.
And they're finding that out. They're finding out, you know,
venues that are supposed to, based on their, let's say they

(49:51):
may work at a certain place and they say, well, for our
employees, these venues are free.
And then they go to apply and they're getting, well, you got
to pay $4000 for the venue. And they're like, why would
people do? I said, well, we put disability
in there. We put neurodiversity in there.
We put the words that the systemsays no, no, no, red flag, red
flag, right? And so I wanted them a little

(50:14):
bit to experience that, but I also wanted to try to set up a,
a, a, a network where we could learn how to get around that
system and learn how to work within that system to make
things. Better that's not autistic of
you at. All yeah not find the crack in
the system and then go OK, I'm going to pick it that until it

(50:35):
opens up and so I've been working, but it's going to be a
one day conference. We have lived experience panels,
expert panels. The way I kind of considered it
was I I've been to lots of self advocacy events and I I don't
like the idea that we only advocate for ourselves because
I'm not only advocating for myself.

(50:57):
I call them, you know, the humanrights advocates more so than
than than self advocates, academic conferences, workshops,
and, and they've all been very siloed and rarely in these
situations do narrative between,you know, the come, come, come
tween, right. And, and, and academically, you

(51:18):
know, I was at an academic conference or no, I was at a
business conference and I was talking about my academic work
and somebody asked me what's, what's the business model on
that? And I was like a research paper.
Like what, what Huh, right. And so the idea is I want to put
these disparate people in a roomtogether.
I want them to hear from each other.
So we have lived experience panels, we have how to

(51:39):
workshops, how to calm down, howto regain energy.
How, how do I know if maybe I'm neurodivergent, right?
You know, so we've got experts coming to speak on that.
We have people talking about travelling as a disabled person
or neurodivergent person. And then we've also got
community resources, right? And what I would like to do or

(52:01):
what I'm doing with my students an innovation fair.
So we have, I am big on universal design, but rebranded
is micro accommodation because universal design is expensive,
but micro is very cheap. And so for less than $300,
students will be presenting kindof almost like in a science

(52:21):
fair, Shark Tank style innovations that they that they
kind of come up with under $300 that, that benefit more than 300
people. So the idea is right, right.
So the idea is, let's see how much bang we can get for this

(52:41):
buck, right? Because we know that there's,
there's money in it in the long run.
I mean, all you have to do is goto Target and buy an Oxo
spatula. And you know that accessibility
is popular. OK, wait a minute.
We got to pause for just like 2 seconds because I never knew how
to pronounce that. I just called it.

(53:02):
So that's what. That's it.
I don't take me as the authoritylike that.
I. Will always call it Oxo from now
on, yeah. OK, it just made sense to my
brain so makes. Sense to my brain now because I
was like what is that? OK, so tell us like these are
fantastic. These are fabulous segments
within this conference. Who is this conference for like

(53:23):
who should be attending? Who needs to like, go get their
ticket, pack their bag and show up?
On obviously people within the community, within the
neurodivergent and disability community, but we are inviting
educators, we are inviting politicians, policy makers,
we're inviting, you know, we aretrying to get, and it is really

(53:46):
geared towards our community andthose who support us.
But I, we don't need to preach to the choir.
We can support ourselves while educating them on some other
things. And so I, you know, the idea is,

(54:07):
again, get a big enough table, if you build it, they will come.
And so we're doing, and we're doing it on the cheap.
I'm only asking for a $5 registration.
That's just to make sure that people show up, right?
Because, you know, hosting an event, you know, when they start
charging $40 a person for catering and stuff.
No, I will fundraise for that. Like let's make this happen.
Because that is the other thing with universal design is often

(54:30):
it's open to everyone if you canafford it, if you can be there.
And, and so in a classic universal design sense, we
haven't finalized the venue, buttomorrow morning I'll know for
sure. We we hopefully and and it is
right across from both a four-star and a two star hotel.

(54:51):
And I said wow, universal designperfect.
You want to be bougie, go be bougie.
You want to be on the cheap $60.00 versus 300.
We're good, right and because. Your dad's left the light on.
Exactly. The more that we can we, the
more people that we can get in there.
Because again, preaching to the choir is one thing, but I, I, we

(55:12):
need converts to the idea that humans became humans because we
took care of each other. I mean, you know, we, we, we
would not have evolved had people back at The Cave not had
organ meat too, right? And so there came a time in our
primitive existence where eventually we started caring for

(55:37):
people who couldn't care for themselves.
And as you know, if you know, one of my friends always says,
you know, the first representation of humanity is
not cave paintings, it's the first healed femur.
When you see that first healed femur bone in a grave, that's
when you know that that was humanity and not animal nature.

(55:59):
And I got goosebumps just thinking about it because I
separate the two. There's a human nature and
there's an animal nature. And our human nature is there's
no normal, there's no right. There just is.
I think that's really hard for alot of better rounds, but it

(56:19):
seems to be something that we inour community sit with
uncomfortably comfortable. We have to.
We have to, right? And I think that's part of it.
We've we've had to, yeah. Yeah, I mean, I've, I've, I've
counseled a lot of people recently.
You know, I do coaching and a bunch of other stuff and people

(56:40):
talk to me about all the, you know, social things and
political things and all these other stuff.
And I say the world hasn't changed for us.
It's chaos and unpredictable. And we're constantly in the
fight or flight anyway. Like we should have some
schadenfreude and look around and go look at them freaking
out. They're just new here.
They're new to fight or flight. But we live here all the time.
Like what are you talking about?So I don't know.

(57:02):
I'm I'm getting a little bit of misery loves company.
No, just. Kidding.
Oh that I love this. So this conference is open to
anybody that this just spoke team just called to you.
You're excited and you know, hey, if you want to book a a
ticket and show up for the day for the weekend, however, this

(57:23):
works. And that is the plan.
The the the conference is on Friday, October 24th.
It, it goes from 9 till 4, but after the conference for, for
people that are around in the area, we're going to try to get
a small group, if there are groups that going, there's the
Henry Ford Museum in Greenfield Village and they have their

(57:43):
hallow weekends. So it's a kind of think Colonial
Williamsburg, but Henry Ford, Thomas Edison era.
And so you can go and trick or treat at the Wright Brothers,
you know, shop and Edison's workshop and, and go all that
stuff. But, but I really want to if
again, this idea is building outnot just these networks, but a

(58:06):
community. I know I've got a lot of people
traveling around to come to the conference because of my various
social media things. And I'm like, I'm going to make
it worth your while, guys. Let's have fun.
Let's have some joy. Let's let's have a little Jelly
with our day, can we? Exact.
We'll get some PB well at the conference.
We can talk all the PB we want after the conference.

(58:26):
It's Jay all day, baby. Oh, that sounds brilliant.
I love it. I want to bring this to a close
because Oh my gosh, you and I could talk forever.
We're probably going to have to do a couple more episodes
because there's some stuff we need to go deep on on this, this
conversation for sure. I always love to close the show
and really just invite you to share from your perspective.
Because you know, I always feel like there's that one piece of

(58:50):
insider advice that someone who's just starting to sort of
see their burnout and maybe whatrecovery is possible.
Because a lot of times we're told, oh, it's just not
possible. You just have to suck it up,
buttercup. This is just how you're going to
have to live life because you'reall PhD.
And I have already said that that's not the case.
I refuse to believe that. And I've been burnout free since

(59:13):
November of 2019, and it has changed my life.
But I'd love to know just that one piece of advice.
You know the inclusion is connectedness, right?
What would you want somebody to know?
Maybe it's just coming to this knowledge right now, from your
heart to theirs. I mean, the biggest thing that

(59:36):
I've always come back to is the idea that you can't be fixed
because you're not broken. You're not broken.
And so when when people pathologize and when people talk
about how we can make you better, how you can know.

(01:00:01):
So yeah, I would really, I wouldreally start at that and, and,
and know that we were all there and we'll all be there again
because as we said, this isn't, this isn't a straight line, but
but yeah, there's nothing to fixbecause you're not broken.

(01:00:21):
That that is powerful and that is that is life giving.
That is joyful to not just hear it, not just believe it, to
embody that. Thank you so much, Dutch.
Thank you. Oh, this is great.
Oh my gosh, I can't thank Dutch enough for the rich and real

(01:00:42):
conversation that we just had. I mean, he's given us so much to
think about and to put into practice.
So if today's episode has you thinking about your own burnout
level and how to start recovering, I invite you to take
our Spicy Pepper Burnout Quiz atWhittington wellbeing.com.

(01:01:02):
It's a quick, insightful way to see where you are right now so
you can take the next steps withclarity.
And if you want ongoing tools and support, sign up for our
Recharge Library Plus newsletterat
energize.whittingtonwellbeing.com.You'll get instant access to

(01:01:22):
free resources from the show, our Clinical Companion Toolkit,
early access to articles, and practical tools you can use in
your own life or in client sessions.
Because burnout recovery isn't just about getting back to OK,
it's about building a life whereyour energy, your joy, and your

(01:01:44):
brilliance feel safe and sustainable.
Until next time, take good care of yourself, my beautiful
sparkle. You are worth it.
Thanks for. Being here, it's been quite all
right. Energy mastery, let's turn the
tide. Top shelf gas dropping wisdom
bombs. Join us next week where the

(01:02:06):
energy's strong be on crying runout.
We're breaking free podcast pumping full of energy tips and
tricks to boost your fight fast space and fun.
You'll feel alive energy masterycome along for the ride behind

(01:02:27):
the on quantum. We're on the rise.
Join us as.