Deborah McGee - Author and CEO of PZI Group

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In this episode of the Biblical Leadership at Work podcast, host Jason Woodard interviews Deborah McGee, a seasoned leader with over 30 years of experience in international operations, consulting, finance, manufacturing, and government. Deborah started her career at a big four accounting firm and later founded PZI International Group. She is also the author of 'The Leadership Attitude: Inspiring Success Through Authenticity and Passion.' 

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Episode Transcript

Jason (00:00):
Welcome to the Biblical Leadership at Work podcast.

(00:03):
I'm your host, Jason Woodard.
On this month's episode, we willmeet Deborah McGee.
With over 30 years of experienceleading international operations
across consulting, finance,manufacturing, and government
sectors, Deborah has a wealth ofwisdom to share.
She started her career at a bigfour accounting firm before
moving into corporateleadership, where she built and

(00:25):
optimized global HR functionsacross more than 30 countries.
As the founder of PZIInternational Group, Deborah has
dedicated herself to empoweringglobal teams with care,
integrity, and purpose.
She's also the author of TheLeadership Attitude, Inspiring
Success Through Authenticity andPassion, where she shares how

(00:47):
faith and leadership go hand inhand.
So today we'll dive into herjourney, explore how biblical
principles have shaped herleadership, and discuss what it
means to lead with authenticity,and passion in a global
workplace.
So Deborah, welcome to the show.
Yeah.
So I always like to start offand give people, um, some more
context on, you know, how theLord led you through kind of

(01:09):
your career journey up intowhere you're at now.
So maybe start at a, at auniversity level, you know, and
when you first got into theworkforce, what's that look

Deborah (01:18):
well, first of all, I'm a retired military spouse.
So my, my husband served 31years and in that 31 years we
had 22 moves.
So, uh, getting my education atall was not the easiest thing.
It only took seven years andfive universities to actually
get a four year accountingdegree before I could even start
my, my professional career.

(01:38):
But you know, during all thetime when I was working through
that.
I did a lot of volunteerleadership.
And so I think so often peopleforget that your volunteer
things that you're doing,whether it's in your kid's
school, whether it's in yourchurch, whether it's in your
community, that's leadership andit should be taken for, for
granted.
And so for instance, I was ainstallation volunteer

(01:59):
coordinator for like 800volunteers before I had a
degree, um, you know, inBelgium, for goodness sakes.
So all these different thingsadd up to who I became as a
leader.

Jason (02:11):
I think, uh, I remember a long time ago I had a pastor
tell me when I was, I was prettyyoung and he was mentoring me as
a first person who ever even sawany kind of leadership
potential.
But he told me, he said, I thinkanyone before they try to be a
leader in a business settingshould, should learn to lead
volunteers

Deborah (02:29):
hard.

Jason (02:30):
you can't, you can't fire them

Deborah (02:32):
You have to be grateful

Jason (02:33):
a paycheck over their

Deborah (02:34):
Right?

Jason (02:34):
Yeah, yes, exactly.
So no, I, I, that, that's greatexperience.
Absolutely.
And you know, as believers weought to be

Deborah (02:41):
Absolutely.
Well, I think that's what reallystarted my, you know, my, um,
attitude of servanthood.
Um, in the military it's, it'singrained in us, um, not just
the military members, but alsothe family.
To serve others.
That's what we're there for usto serve in any way that we can.
Um, and so then I just pulledthat over into my corporate
career as well, which wasn'talways the easiest thing to do

(03:04):
in corporate America, especiallyas a female.
And yeah, I don't have a chip onmy shoulder, but nonetheless, to
be in the, um, the big fouraccounting firms for 13 years.
Um, you know, as a, a female wasnot the easiest thing to do,
especially in the eighties,nineties, um, and then
transitioning out of there,which I love the accounting

(03:25):
field.
Um, and I really was, uh, I was,you know, as a senior manager
with KPMG, I had, uh, probablybook a business of 10 million, I
had major clients and allorganizations, and I really
loved the clients, but I reallyhated was the bureaucracy of
where I worked.

Jason (03:43):
That's a big

Deborah (03:43):
a big company, it was a big company, and there was a
certain way things were done,and it's not always the most
biblical way that it's done.
I remember very early in mycareer being told, especially as
a female, that my job was to beas aggressive as heck.
Get out there, don't take no foran answer, and just keep going
like a bulldozer, don't everstop.

Jason (04:03):
Yeah.
Were you doing auditing Deborah?
Is that, is that kind of thefield that you were in at that
time was like

Deborah (04:08):
I was actually an international taxation.
So I am still, I am a CPA.
I've been a CPA for 25 years.
You know, once, you know whatCPA stands for, right, Jason?

Jason (04:19):
Go, go for it.
I know what a

Deborah (04:21):
Can't pass again.
So yes, I have kept that CPA allthis, all these years.
I've never let it lapse, um,because I would never ever take
that again.
It was very hard to get.
Um, but you know, within, withinthat career, and I really
thought that would be my career.
I thought I would be a partnerin the firms, that What I was
aiming toward all while alsobeing a military spouse and

(04:41):
raising children and trying tohave some type of a, well, I
mean, I was raised a SouthernBaptist.
I was, I mean, it was ingrainedto me very early in my spiritual
life.
And, you know, in that, in thatcorporate world, it was not
welcome in any way, shape orform.
So I really separated myselffrom my professional life and
my, and my, my personal life.

(05:03):
Fast forward into internationalhuman resources.
I switched careers afterStarving Exhaustion came out and
accounting wasn't going to befun anymore.
You couldn't do the strategies.
Um, so I switched careers intointernational human resources,
and I really found my callingthere because what I was
passionate about was the people.
That's what I was passionateabout, was supporting people in

(05:24):
any way I could, especiallyinternationally.
Um, whether it was, you know,their payroll, their benefits,
their housing, their, theirrelocation, um, just so many
different things.
And as a military spouse who hadmoved 22 times, including
internationally, I knew how hardit was.
So I had empathy.
With that, I moved into twolarge companies, large companies

(05:45):
where I was a corporate managerfor compensation benefits with
Lafarge North America.
It was a 20 billion a yearcorporation out of France.
Actually, it was a Frenchcorporation and then moved on
later into Doosan Infracore,which was a Korean organization
out of Seoul, Korea.
Um, and I was the global, uh,global international human

(06:07):
resources head for thatorganization.

Jason (06:10):
Yeah.
So that's, I'm familiar with, Iwork in manufacturing.
So do sounds a familiar name tome.
They make,

Deborah (06:15):
Yes.
Bobcat.

Jason (06:17):
they actually just went through, I think, Yeah, name
changes on.
Yeah, so they're, uh,

Deborah (06:21):
Well, you know, at, uh, at Doosan, at Doosan, I was one
of four, uh, female executivesin the organization.
There were 45, 000 employees.
It was a 20 billion a yearorganization, and I was one of
four female execs.
Um,

Jason (06:37):
You know what?
I will say this, Deborah, andyou'd probably be proud about
this.
So our company has a, uh, it'snot really a division.
It's every one of our businessesare legal separate entities.
So that's how they operate is bya holding group.
But either way, we have abusiness in South Korea.
Our CEO is a, is a lady andshe's been there a long time.

(06:57):
Yeah.
She's really well respectedwithin the organization there.

Deborah (07:01):
Well, there is one thing that I can't, I always
joke, kind of half joke that,that it was the first time in my
career, not being a 25 year oldfemale was a good thing.
Um, because age definitely wasrespected.
Um, and there, cause you know,they're just, there wasn't that
many of us around to do it.
It was difficult, but rewardingand I would not have known how
to run it.

(07:21):
I mean, I run a multi milliondollar corporation now myself in
30 countries.
I wouldn't have known how to dothat had I not had that great
experience in those leadershippositions to be able to, to, um,
to know the business side of thehouse in a way.

Jason (07:35):
Um, so I've had the opportunity a few times,
including now to work ininternational organizations.
I, I have loved the experienceof traveling and seeing other
cultures and meeting, um, what Iwould consider not only
colleagues and friends fromaround the world.
I mean, I opened my, itcompletely changed my
perspective of, uh, the worldGod created.

(07:57):
You know, when you spend time inother places and.
emphasize with people that livethere and work there and, you
know, call them colleagues andfriends.
But I've always thought it mustbe an enormous challenge for
leaders to do an expatassignments, to go and engage
and build trust with People fromit's literally a different

(08:17):
country a different language adifferent culture I'd like to
I'd like to talk a little bitabout that and your experience
and what what has been a make orbreak for leaders who have went
and Completed those assignments

Deborah (08:30):
know, honestly, um, individuals who are chosen for
those expat assignments, thereality is they're superstars at
home.
That's why they were picked.
That's why they were, Hey, he'sa great guy.
He can do this job.
This is wonderful.
We need, we need this guy here.
I don't care what it costs.
I need that guy there.
And so we do, and so we put themthere.
But the problem typically isthey were a superstar in the

(08:52):
last location.
They're not a superstar in thenew location.
You know, they're brought in toquote unquote fix it.
And the, you know, the hostlocation may or may not welcome
that.
Um, learning the culture, thelanguage, you know, I used to,
people used to tell him, well,it's all about the culture.
And I believe that for, there issome, there is some reality

(09:13):
that's true.
Don't get me wrong.
It is true.
The culture and language istrue, but you know, Jason,
people are people.
And once you get below thatsurface of culture and language
and how they live or what theyeat or what, how they shop.
People are people, you know, andthey, they have their, their
faiths, their, their goals,their aspirations, their family,

(09:34):
just like we do.

Jason (09:36):
Yeah, right, right But how do you think, how have ones
that you've seen be successful,how do they connect with people
that are, that, I mean, there's,it depends on the country.
I found, you know, without, ifI'm in.
Western Europe.
Okay.
Maybe not a huge difference, butI've spent a little time in
China.

Deborah (09:53):
spent a lot

Jason (09:54):
way, way, yeah, way, way, way different in the way that
they think and what's, you know,acceptable and not like, how
have you seen people besuccessful when they've gone to

Deborah (10:06):
think Westerners, we struggle.
We struggle with that, Jason,because, um, we, we are a task
based society.
We just get it done.
Just get over there and get itdone, knock it out as fast as
possible, as cheap as possible.
You know, and have some funwhile you're at it, but that's
not how it is that's not therest of the world.
Only the United States arepretty much task based.

(10:26):
Some, some Western, Germans maybe a little bit more task based.
But most, most of the world isvery much relationship based.
Um, but, you know, I have to getto know you first.
Um, I talked about this in mybook, the leadership attitude.
But what this is such animportant story is I had went
through many CHROs in myposition at, uh, at that

(10:47):
location.
And I'll never forget the fourthone who called me up and he
goes, Deb, I don't know whatyou've done, but these people
don't like you.
They just really don't like you.
It's like, well, you know, I didexactly what the CEO told me to
do.
I designed and implemented andran a huge program that did not
exist before.

(11:08):
But I had, I had, I had causedpeople to lose face and I had no
relationships with them.
So his instructions.

Jason (11:14):
just implemented it.
You got, yeah, did the

Deborah (11:16):
I just did the excuse because that's a Westerner, uh,
Western broad, you know, that'swhat I became known as, that
Western broad who likes to spenda lot of money.
Um, but, but when I actually didspend time going over there and
he, he brought me to Korea fortwo weeks, he goes, I don't want
you to have a single meeting.
I don't want you to moveanything forward and you don't
have an agenda.
Your whole, your whole, you'reto learn to drink soju, sing

(11:38):
karaoke and build relationships.

Jason (11:41):
There you go.
And did, was that an eye openingexperience for you to see, then,
how fast you can

Deborah (11:46):
I never crossed my mind, you know, because we're
not that, we're, we're notgeared that way.
You know, to have relationshipsfirst, but it really, it really
put me on a different path, apath of servant leadership, um,
where I started mentoring myselfthrough a lot of books.
Um, I, yeah, I wish I could saythat I had a executive mentor to

(12:07):
kind of walk me through and Ihad executive leadership.
I had executive, um, coaches.
I even had cultural coaches, butI used to joke that I was so
screwed up.
I needed two coaches.
But, um, but, but the real, Imean, it's just different, you
know, for instance, something sosimple, I used to always have a
scowl on my face when I would bein Korea, having all of our
meetings were in Korean.

(12:28):
All of our meetings were inKorean.
I don't speak Korean.
So, so you've got someonetalking to you in Korean the
entire time, and most Westernersare going to go trying to figure
that out, right?
And I always had a scowl on myface, and so it came back and
said, why is Debbie so angrywhen she comes here?
Gosh, I'm not really angry, butI had to learn to talk with a

(12:49):
smile on my face.
You know, at all times, becauseit was it was that it was that's
what they saw, not what I meant.
And so understanding thoselittle, those little behavioral
preferences and changing that.
I mean, it started me on a wholedifferent path of leadership.
Um, leadership training andleadership development,
leadership coaching, and reallygetting down to the behaviors of

(13:10):
people versus culture, language,position.

Jason (13:15):
Yeah.
That's good.
Uh, on the personal side, so wewent through a little bit of
career.
We'll talk more about the bookand what you're doing now, but,
uh, tell us a little bit aboutwhere do you live?
You mentioned, uh, that you're amilitary spouse.
So tell us a little bit aboutthat spouse, kids.

Deborah (13:29):
huge.
Yeah.
So, uh, my husband served 31years.
We are, we live in Guntersville,Alabama on a beautiful lake,
Lake Guntersville.
Um, so we were able to retire tothe lake.
Uh, I have three grown sons.
Two of them are in the military.
They were both majors.
Uh, both West Corners and mythird son is a scientist.
He's a virologist.
Um, so they're all grown nowwith, uh, see the 33.

(13:53):
Um, so I was doing the, the twoyear apart while trying to have
a career and moving around andall the other stuff that happens
with life, right?
Just with the life.
Um, we have five grandkids.
Beautiful.
I have, I have four grandsonsand I finally, finally got one
girl.
One, one

Jason (14:12):
all the three boys and all, that's a lot of

Deborah (14:15):
a lot of testosterone.
One of my sons likes to say theforces, the Y force is strong
with them.
He's like, yes it is.
The Y chromosome is very strongwith them.
But, um,

Jason (14:25):
what branch of service, what

Deborah (14:26):
he was in the army, and so the other two, um, my two
sons are also in the army.
Um, and, um, my husband retiredand went to work for a, a major,
uh, government contractor forabout 15 years, retired,
retired, and, um, actually is astay at home dad now.
We just adopted a 15 year oldboy.

Jason (14:45):
Oh wow.
That's amazing.

Deborah (14:47):
he's, he's great.
He's great.
So,

Jason (14:50):
That's awesome.
Well, thank you.
Thank you for your service.
And I say that I, uh, to you andyour husband, but to you as a,
as a military spouse, I've, uh,um, I, I have some close friends
that we went to church with and,uh, the, the, the husband, uh,
was in the military and deployedwhile we were friends and.
So, you know, I didn't everexperience it, but saw the

(15:12):
impact that has pretty close up,you know, families and spouses
and children that are leftbehind for that.
His was a

Deborah (15:19):
oh yeah.
Yeah.
My husband many times, butthat's just, that's just what we
do.

Jason (15:23):
yeah,

Deborah (15:24):
Um, but most of my company actually, 85 percent of
my company are military spousesor veterans.

Jason (15:30):
Really?

Deborah (15:30):
I'm passionate about it.
I'm passionate about one.
I, I, I mean, I was afforded agreat career because big
companies took a chance on me,even though I was moving every
two years.
Um, and I, I really try hard topass, you know, push that
forward.

Jason (15:45):
So tell us about your

Deborah (15:46):
So PZI, PZI is a global human capital solutions company.
Um, it stands for peoplezealously interconnected.
PZI and we really are all aboutpeople.
So it's, um, a lot of what I didwhen I ran international human
resources, the whole sphere ofservices, I created six
companies to do that instead.

(16:07):
So relocation management, uh,international assignment
management, employer record,payroll, uh, leadership
development.
We have a huge amount ofgovernment contracts in our
leadership workforcedevelopment, uh, areas.
Yeah.
Um, and even internationalbenefits.
I mean, even an insurancebroker,

Jason (16:25):
So do you run those, you run those businesses separately
under the umbrella of

Deborah (16:30):
we do currently run them all under.
I'm the sole owner of all ofthem.
I keep trying to find somebodydoesn't anybody wants so far.
It's only been me.
Um, and.
It's, it's, it's just like Isaid, it's grown.
We're in, uh, we're in 30countries.
We have our own subsidiaries in30 countries and, um, we can do

(16:50):
business in probably about, oh,75.

Jason (16:52):
So do you come alongside smaller organizations that need
some help with the internationalpiece?

Deborah (16:58):
We do.

Jason (16:59):
okay.
Cause I can imagine.
Yeah, I can imagine.
Cause I've worked, again, I'veworked with some really large
companies that had.

Deborah (17:05):
Full staff, the whole, we have all the suppliers.
And when I

Jason (17:09):
they do all the expat

Deborah (17:10):
when I did it, Jason, you know, I had suppliers.
I probably had a hundred, 150suppliers globally.
Well, those relationships I hadhad for 20 plus years.
And so they came along with mewhen I started the company.

Jason (17:21):
Yeah.
Okay.
So you help with internationalassignments, international, I
can't imagine internationalbenefits.
We just doing benefits here is

Deborah (17:28):
It is, international benefits is much more
complicated, especially whenyou've got a U.
S.
person that you've got tocoordinate both sides of it.
But I really, we even developedour own international HR
software called Eagle EmployeeGlobal Logistics.
So we developed it, we licensedit, and it's a global, um, it's
a global, um, uh, HR softwarethat integrates with Workday and

(17:50):
many other companies.
And so I have one largegovernment contractor.
He uses it for about 7, 000 oftheir expats in a foreign
employee workforce.

Jason (18:00):
Wow.
That's amazing.
How long, how long has thecompany existed then from 10
years?
That's

Deborah (18:05):
That was my retirement.
I got bored.

Jason (18:08):
Yeah, not bored now, are you?

Deborah (18:10):
no.
I'm looking for that retirement.

Jason (18:12):
Yeah, you're ready.
Your husband's like, you got toboth retire

Deborah (18:15):
Exactly.
That's the, that's the plan.
It's, you know, I, I have otherplans and, you know, the, uh,
the book, the book thing campjust kind of came out of the
blue, to be honest with you.
It's one of those things that Ithought I would do one day.
Um, and it can call him and I.
I should say I said yes, but Ithought that the story they
wanted was my professional storystory.
They got was very different.

(18:35):
And so, you know, getting backinto my spiritual side of the
house, truly this Holy spiritjust came into me and spoke
stuff.
It's like, I don't even knowwhat that came from.
And it was just phenomenal.
And the, everything that cameout was just, it was, um, it was
definitely where it needed tobe.

Jason (18:53):
So did, did somebody else approach you originally about
writing a

Deborah (18:57):
Forbes, Forbes approached me.
They actually approached me forprobably, it was maybe a year or
two.
To be honest, I thought it was ascam.
I mean, he would want to like,not me, really, you know, and
it's so fun.
It's like, okay, I'll talk withyou.
Fine, you know, and.

Jason (19:14):
and was the original idea around, uh, HR, people,

Deborah (19:19):
they were actually looking for, uh, uh, um, women
who had done corporate globalcorporate jobs, which is a
little unusual, especially in mysituation.
And, um, that's what theyactually were, you know, we're
looking for us.
What drew drew them to me andthen, of course, the company
developing, you know.
setting up my own company.
And it's not a small company.

(19:39):
I mean, we have probably about200, some multi million dollar
company, and we have maybe about200 employees, um, around the
club want to grow, but

Jason (19:48):
So then how did it transform into the end product
and how long did that

Deborah (19:52):
it was tough.
It probably took a year and ahalf.
Um, it.
It transformed when we firststarted talking, um, and then we
went to meet with them becausemy husband wasn't convinced that
it was something we reallywanted to do.
Um, with everything else you'vegot going on now, you're going
to write a book too.
Um, but it really, um, everytime I met with them, more and
more of, um, how I led and, and,you know, kind of jumping back a

(20:17):
little bit when I was withDoosan and doing all these
amazing things.
As, as the book talks about, youknow, we went through an
enterprise resource planningexercise.
I was, I was like, Oh, I wasn'tplanning.
I actually went all the way toKorea to fight for our team, not
to go through the ERP process.
Everybody else's function hadbeen just complete disseminated.

(20:38):
And we were running everythingfor the corporations.
So why would they tear us apart?
Um, and they actually.
let me go.
He flew me 7, 000 miles to letme go.
Yeah.
I've never took that long of aplane ride to get fired.
But so, yeah.

Jason (20:53):
Yeah.

Deborah (20:53):
you know, it was, uh, it was harsh and it took me a
long time to be honest with you.
It probably took me six monthswhere I could even say it out
loud because I was going toretire anyway.
So it's easier to say you'reretiring, but to be severed.
Um, and I wasn't, I was only 50.
I wasn't quite ready to, youknow, to stop working yet.
Um, but I never thought aboutstarting a company.
Never in a million years.
People told me I should, it'slike what I did was so unique.

(21:17):
How would you even do somethinglike that?
How would you just.
Do it.
And, um, I started, um, I hadmy, our pastor had been
challenging us for a long timeto read the Bible in a year.
And reality was probably, Ihadn't picked up a Bible of it
25 years.
I mean, I, you know, raised thekids, the church, I went to
church, I saved it at 10, youknow, I, I did all the things

(21:41):
that I needed to do, but I neverhad a real relationship with
Jesus Christ until I wasprobably 50.
And, um, you know, so I, I hadan experience, it happened to
me, um, my father passed away.
He was, you know, I wasfortunate that I was raised by
Christian, by Christian family.
I was very fortunate, but, um,my father, when he passed away,

(22:03):
um, And he was fortunate enoughto die at home with my mother
and my sisters there with him.
And they told me that his lastfew breaths, he reached out
three times.
And they thought he was reachingout for them.
But they realized on his thirdbreath, he wasn't reaching
sideways.
He was reaching straight ahead.
And they knew, they knew he was,someone was there to take him

(22:25):
home.

Jason (22:25):
Yeah.

Deborah (22:26):
my mother said, you know, honey, it's okay.
We're good.
You can go.
And he did.
And that was probably for me,Jason, to go, wow, this is
really, this is really good.
Everything I've known,everything I've heard,
everything I've believed, Butit's real.
And it, and so when I wentthrough this experience and
there's a lot in the book thattalks about, you know, that,
that path, but when I wentthrough that experience and I,

(22:49):
um, sat down and started readingliterally, I mean, I'm very, I'm
a very structured person.
I'm a CPA, I'm a very structuredperson.
So, you know, Two chapters inthe Old Testament, chapter in
the New Testament.
And I started writing out myprayers.
I had never done that.
And the more I read, the moresimilarities I saw in business.
It's like, Oh my gosh, this is,I deal with, I deal with Goliath

(23:12):
every single day.
You know, I deal with thesethings every single day.
I just never thought about it ina business sense.

Jason (23:19):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And scripture's got

Deborah (23:22):
has all the answers.
It is, it's just like, wow, it'slike a guidebook.
If you just.
We'll take the time to sit down,read it, and study it.
Not just, you know, not justgloss over it, but actually
study it

Jason (23:35):
No

Deborah (23:36):
and, and pray.
You know, I, I, I had, I mean, Iused, I used to be someone who I
prayed to God a lot.
I never like got talked to me.
I talked to him all the time,But I never let him ever talk to
me.
And taking that stop, stop andsaying, okay, before, like now
as part of my leadership, Idon't make any decisions.

(23:56):
None.
I mean, and it's, I used tothink it's my gut, my instinct.
It's not my gut, it's notinstincts.
That's that's Jesus.
That's my, I call him business.
Jesus.
That's my business.
Jesus.

Jason (24:07):
Well, he, you know, scripture says, uh, one thing,
uh, he'll give liberally if weask and that's wisdom.
And yeah, I mean, I find myselfmany times I've prayed for over
a situation that I just wasn'tclear on, you know, it's not all
situations are black and white.
Although you and I, people likeyou and I love black and white
process.
This is the yes or no, but youknow, there's a lot of
situations that aren't,especially with people.

(24:28):
And, uh, yeah, I can tell youmany times I prayed and prayed
for wisdom on something and thenit just becomes clear.
And, you know, I thank God

Deborah (24:36):
I agree 100%.
And, you know, being the CEOand, you know, we, like I said,
we have grown and, you know, noteveryone works out.
We are a, we're a Christianbased organization and I have
had some wonderful, wonderfulChristians work for me, but it
is a business too.
You know, sometimes it's justnot the right fit.
And I, I, people are my passion.

(24:57):
People are my passion.
So having to let anyone go justreally, really tears at me.
Um, and I've had to do it and,but I've never done it because
of the business reason orbecause of their performance,
I've always started from Jesus,what do I need to do?
I used to be before, before Iget closer to my faith, I would

(25:18):
be the one to go, okay, I, as aleader, have I done everything
that I should have done forthem?
Maybe, but a lot of times it wasme.
Have I done everything?
Versus Jesus, what do you wantme to do?

Jason (25:33):
Yeah, give me clarity on it.
That's good.
That's interesting.
It's it's tough though.
You're right.
I mean, it's Yeah, lettingpeople go and it's always tough
even even, you know, there'ssome people who I want to say
it's an easier decision becausethey've really made it a little
easier But you know, I've hadand yeah, I'm sure you've shared
this I've had to let otherbelievers go that I knew we
shared a faith and we talkedabout our faiths But

Deborah (25:55):
But it wasn't the right fit.

Jason (25:57):
performance wasn't that great It wasn't the right fit,
the performance wasn't there,and that's tough.
But, I've always found myselfpraying, uh, before it, and
praying for them afterwards,praying for them, you know,
whether, whether they're abeliever or not, that they would
land on their feet and findwhatever it was God,

Deborah (26:12):
Well, and I found

Jason (26:13):
them through that.

Deborah (26:15):
through the years that, um, I'm a big believer, you
know, um, shut a door and got toopen a window, you know, so it,
he, he leads you where, where hewants you to be.
And, you know, I truly believethat my husband and I were
supposed to be here inGuntersville, Alabama, and I
fought that tooth and nail for avery long time.

(26:36):
Um, and now to see where he'sput me in, um, and in this
position, you know, I, I trulyfeel my job as a, As, as his, as
his daughter is to build afoundation for his people to
have, um, a place to work,interesting work, um, and do
things for other people.

(26:56):
And we, that's what we do.
We're, I mean, we truly helpother people.
We support them in so manydifferent ways.

Jason (27:03):
yeah, that's good.
I mean that's, yeah, just serve,right?
You can take your gifts and goserve.
That's what we're called to doas believers in the church, but
I believe that that's why we'regiven work, that God has given
us talents and gifts to go workin this world and, you know,
reconcile and build and createand serve.
It's all about

Deborah (27:20):
one of my, you know, one of my biblical heroes is
Deborah, Deborah judges, and,you know, I resonate.
It's like Deborah who led thenation of Israel, my goodness,
and 600 years before Christ and,and it, you know, had an entire
victory, um, because the generalin charge basically said, I

(27:42):
won't do it unless you do itwith me.
I won't go unless you go with meand to have that happen.
Think about that.
600 years BC.
Think about that.
It's just, that's incredible.
And to have, I think back onwhat her life must've been like,
the challenges of what shemust've had and the counsel she
had to have, have taken from,from God.
Well, it's just, I'm odd.

Jason (28:04):
Hey, tell, I want to understand a little bit timing
around when your father passedaway and then when you were let
go from Doosan, like, really

Deborah (28:14):
Very close, very close.
Um, probably about two, withinabout two years of it, um, of
that happening.
Um.
It, you know, um, yeah, probablyabout without within two years.
And then my, and I talked aboutthe book as well.
My, my son had a tragic fallfrom the roof of a building and
broke his back.
And, um, and I was, I was inDubai, uh, traveling the world,

(28:39):
you know, and so I kept these,these things just kept
happening, you know, thesereally things it's like, stop,
what did you do?
You're not supposed to be there.
That's not why I want you there.
But I didn't listen.
I didn't listen.
So I joke about it in the bookand said, Well,

Jason (28:56):
Yeah.

Deborah (28:57):
you won't listen to me.
I'm gonna put you a time out.
I'm just gonna give you a timeout.
And he gave me a really goodtime out and took the job away.

Jason (29:05):
Well, God knows how to get to us.
And, you know, that's why Iwanted to ask you that, Deborah,
because, um, it, you know, TheLord allows those things to come
into our life for a purpose.
Sometimes it's to open our eyesbecause we're being stubborn.
I've been there.
Trust me.
I have stories.
It's not always, you know, itcould be just, but it's, it's
always for his children fortheir, for their best and to
sanctify them and to glorifyhimself.

(29:27):
And so I just think it'simportant when we're sharing
these stories, because you know,you're many years past that, but
maybe there's someone listeningwho's going through

Deborah (29:36):
Yeah.
And doesn't see the connection,you know, doesn't see, um,
doesn't see the, The why the whyin it, it takes, it takes a long
time to see the wine.
My, my mother just passed awayprobably, uh, maybe six weeks
ago.
Uh, so she lived another 15years and again, just, you know,

(29:56):
it was such a celebration of herlife and knowing we were all so
happy we knew where she wasgoing to have that as a
believer.
Um, you know, I always want tomake sure that I have that with
me.
With my children, if I can leavethat legacy, I can leave that
one legacy.
Forget about the business,forget about the books, forget
about anything else.
If I can leave the legacy thatit's

Jason (30:17):
That's right.

Deborah (30:17):
it's real, then I've done

Jason (30:19):
Now, especially with, we have two grandchildren and so
that's what I'm starting tothink about.
Like how do I disciple

Deborah (30:25):
It's tough when you're not the parent.

Jason (30:27):
Yep.
They, you know, they, they livenearby and our kids are totally
open.
They all come to our church.
So it's just, I love it.
One of my favorite Sundays whenthey're all there together, it
doesn't always happen, you know,different work schedules and
sicknesses and things.
But man, when my whole family'sthere, we take up a whole pew
and I love it.
I love it.
So that's a blessing to be allthere together.
So I have a question around, Ialways ask people this, uh, what

(30:50):
is your, And this probably is inyour book too, but like, what is
your like, key core, like,leadership principle?
What are the few things that youalways, always go back to when
you think about effectiveleadership?

Deborah (31:03):
The one core thing is, are you listening to the person?
Are you telling, are youlistening?
And what can you do to supportthat person?
Now, what can they do to supportyou?
I think so many times asleaders, we think, okay, you're
here to support me.
You know, I'm the manager.
You're the, you're the, thetasker, your job is to support

(31:24):
me.
And I, I won't lie.
That was probably, that was mymethodology for probably 20 plus
years of that.
Um, but now looking at it andgoing, it is not just a matter
of how can I support you?
But really connecting to thatperson, taking the time to
connect.
You know, I'm a, I'm a very, um,directed individual and I do

(31:46):
move really fast.
And, but I know when someonereally needs to talk to me and I
tell this a lot, when we'redoing leadership development, I
can always tell people want to,what they want when they come in
the door, they'll come in thedoor and they go, Hey Deb, I got
a question or Deb, can you, andthey really just need me to stop
what I'm doing and answer theirquestion.
That's all they need.
They just need a quick answer.

(32:06):
And then they have other timesthey come in.
It's like, I really don'tunderstand what it is we're
doing this.
And they need the why.
They need me to stop and tellthem the why.
Show them the big picture,because I know the big picture,
but maybe I didn't communicateit.
My husband's always reminded meI'm a terrible communicator.
For someone who teachescommunication, I really suck at
communication.
But tell them the big why, youknow, oh, what it is that

(32:28):
they're supposed to do.
And then there's others that'slike, okay, well, We did this.
Why do we have to do somethingelse?
Because there's so manypossibilities, and I love the
possibilities.
I'm always, I want more and moreand more possibilities, because
I gather data that way.
But most importantly, whensomeone walks into my office,
And they come in, they go, oh mygosh, you're just not gonna
believe what just happened.

(32:49):
This is so amazing.
I know they need me to be towhat?
I may be in the middle ofnumbers you know, and stop what
I'm doing.
Listen and get excited withthem.
You know, share their excitementwith them.
And it's typically, it'stypically a Godwin'cause
typically a God moment, youknow?
So I'm always happy to do that.
But when they come in and theypull up the chair.

(33:10):
And they sit in front of me,they need to talk to me.
That's when I got to literallyget away from my computer, stop,
lower my tone, and just have aconversation.

Jason (33:20):
Yeah.
And that's inefficient, right?
And that's, I just was talkingto someone else on the podcast
the other day that, uh, ithasn't come out yet, but he
talked about how inefficientrelationships are and he's
right.
But we got in for those of usthat love efficiency, it's hard,
but it's the right thing to

Deborah (33:36):
It's not just the right thing to do, it becomes the most
efficient way to do it.
You know, I

Jason (33:41):
it is

Deborah (33:42):
I look back on my career, and oh, I was driving a
really big bus, and I had a lotof people, I had over 20 people
globally working for me, butthey weren't on my bus.
I was driving the bus without,you know, they could get on if
they wanted to, but I, it didn'treally matter.
I was going and uh, and I don't,that's not how I lead anymore.
I want everyone on my bus.
I want it overflowing till theycan't fit anymore.

Jason (34:04):
What, so let's talk more about the book and what is like,
what, what is benefit is peoplegoing to get when they go and
buy your book, which we're goingto put a link in the podcast and
make sure they go out to Amazonand check that out.
But what are they going to learnfrom it?
What's going to be the bigtakeaway for other

Deborah (34:19):
the first couple chapters they're going to go,
wow, she's really no differentthan I am.
And then they're going to startseeing how some little tiny
changes happened.
Um, and how could those littletiny changes maybe make a
difference in their lives too.
Have they thought about that?
And they're not, I'm a bigbeliever of 5%.
It's, it's, it's the littlethings, it's the little things

(34:41):
that you do that really make adifference in communications and
make a difference in how yousupport people.
Um, and that all, I mean, thereality is, you know, Jesus
Christ was the greatest leaderever.
We're still following him 2000plus years later.
So why wouldn't I?
And you know, it's part of, partof my book is I start every
chapter with a Bible verse.

(35:02):
I relate it back to, forinstance, I talk about informal
leadership through Esther.
Um, one example of informalleadership, she had no authority
whatsoever, but saved the entirepopulation.
You know, just because she couldinfluence, because she had
influence.
And how many people in yourorganization have influence, but
not authority?
I

Jason (35:20):
That's right.
Yep.
Yep.
The law of EF Hutton.
This was from John

Deborah (35:25):
love, I love John Maxwell.
He was my first one.
My first book was John Maxwellwas a 21 characteristics of
leadership.
Yes,

Jason (35:35):
Hutton, when the real leader speaks, everybody
listens.
And I love his story.
So you talked about, you know,coming up in a Southern Baptist
church.
And, you know, my family and Ihave attended predominantly
Baptist churches.
or non denominational, which isBaptist in nature churches.
And I've served on, you know,I've served as a deacon in these
churches when I was 35 yearsyounger than any man sitting

(35:57):
around that table.
And, uh, yeah, it was the law ofE.
F.
Hutton because everybody knewwho the real leader was.
And, you know, at that churchand, you know, unfortunately
I've, I've, I've servedalongside some very godly men
who didn't, uh, wield that, uh,ungodly as, as a leader.
They, you know, they used it ina very good way, but yeah,

Deborah (36:15):
sometimes those with

Jason (36:16):
What are some,

Deborah (36:17):
don't aren't always the one with the influence.
Everyone thinks that if you havethe authority, therefore you're
influencing people.
That's not necessarily true.
Oh, you might be.
You might be influencing themfor the bad.
I'm not so sure that I influencepeople well, um, in my corporate
days.
But I, you know, I, I do hopeI'm influencing them to see that
you can, you can have yourfaith.

(36:38):
And work in the corporate world.
Capitalism can, can survive, youknow, with Christianity.
Absolutely.

Jason (36:45):
Oh, for sure.
Yeah.
And I think it's, uh, yeah,I've, I've become convinced
that, um, all of the trueleadership principles that I
know are biblical principles.
All of them.
And even, you know, uh, youknow, free market and good
business and healthy businesses.
Um, all the principles that workin those environments are

Deborah (37:05):
did Jesus say?
Right?
Give Caesar what is Caesar's andgive God what is God's.

Jason (37:10):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So your, so your book is goodfor Christian leaders that want
to learn and

Deborah (37:16):
just are corporate leaders and want to have a, how
do I, how do I connect withinformal leadership?
How do I connect with people?
How do I, how do I actually getpeople to stop and communicate
with each other?
And like I said, we do a lot ofleadership development training.
We've got probably six or sevengovernment contracts and we're
influencing people.

(37:36):
Every day.
And it's truly about behavioralpreferences and how, how you
change little things you dobecause you can't change anybody
else.
How can you change the littlethings you do in that?

Jason (37:47):
well, and that's a great, you know what?
That's so true.
Uh, that is so true, man.
I think about.
When I'm praying about someoneI'm struggling in that
relationship, I'm like, I gottapray about me in that piece
because Lord, that person'sheart is yours.

Deborah (38:03):
Yes.

Jason (38:04):
Can you give, Deborah, can you give us a couple of
tidbits, a couple of examplesfrom the book of maybe those
little tweaks that people canmake?
Because I hear what you'resaying and that's good stuff.
I'd like

Deborah (38:15):
you know something, the simplest thing to do to, um,
especially to connect to someoneand show that you want to, you
want to collaborate with them?
It's to smile.
Just a smile.
And it's pretty simple to do.
You know, but when we're inthat, when we're in that mode,
and we're, and we're trying toget people to do what we want
them to do, we don't really wantthem to collaborate.

(38:36):
We just want them to do what wewant them to do.
But the collaboration can startwith just a quick smile.
A little bit of power.

Jason (38:43):
had to have that feedback.
Uh, one time I, I made a changeto an organization where I
learned the hard way about a lotbetter leadership.
And I went through some reallytough, um, tough, painful, but
good changes in the way I leadpeople.
And I did have a mentor for,thank God for that man.
But I remember I would come intothe shop every day, just my

(39:04):
normal come in.
And after a while people arelike, why do you always come in
here looking like you're mad?
You don't smile.
I'm like, I'm just coming to,I'm just walking and going to my
office.
They're like, you look likeyou're

Deborah (39:13):
you're already in your head.
You're in your head.
You're moving things forward inyour head.
That's why, you know, it's thehardest thing for people like us
who insist on moving thingsforward.
We just have that action.
We have to do it is to, is toconnect and collaborate with
someone who just wants arelationship.
That is so hard.
Here's a little easy littletidbit.

(39:33):
Those individuals who reallywant relationships, you know,
they're the ones with thepictures of their family
everywhere and their dog.
And they're always asking howeverybody is and how's your
mother or her.
She was sick and you know, itwas like, gosh, I just need the
report.
Can you just give me the report?
Walk into that person's office,cube, whatever, and just go, so

(39:56):
how was your son's game lastnight?
You know, you really want thereports what you really want and
walk out.
Okay.
Don't ask.
Don't bite your tongue.
Don't ask for it.
Walk out.
Start showing that you actuallydo care about them and you'll
get more than just, you know,the, just the report.
You'll get, you'll, you'll,you'll get their loyalty and

(40:17):
that, that's everything.
I talk about it in the book alittle bit.
This is a true story.
I talk about it in a lot of myleadership, um, about when I
first kind of changed how Iconnect and, and how I use my
preferences.
I had an individual that I wastrying to let go, um, for a long
time.
Like six months.
I had so much documentation innature.

(40:37):
I would not let me fire.
And, uh, we went through, wewent through this, we wouldn't
use insights discovery.
I'm going to drop a name there,but insights discovery is an
assessment that we use, um, andwe went through it and this
individual had been such a starperformer for me and had just
completely stopped and was justantagonistic.
I couldn't get anything fromhim.
It's like, dude, you just gottago.

(40:59):
You gotta go.
When I started giving him theinformation, like, if I knew I
needed a report on Wednesdayafternoon, if I told him on
Tuesday or Monday, hey, by theway, by Wednesday close of day,
I really need his report andthis is how I need it.
He showed up every time.
I promoted him to a managerthree months later.

Jason (41:19):
Just making some tweaks and

Deborah (41:21):
just tweaks, you know, and he took the time to give me
what I needed too.
Not at the last minute.
You know, but, and not so muchdata that I couldn't write it
anyway, but you know, as we callit bluff, right?
Bottom line up front, um, justgive me the information that I
need up front.
The few bullets that I need tohave to make my decision.
And I trust that you've got allthe data because that's what you

(41:43):
do.
That's what I know you're goodat.
And if I need the data, I'll askyou for the data.
Otherwise I just need the bottomline up front.

Jason (41:50):
the book is called, again, The Leadership Attitude.
You can grab it on Amazon,right?
We'll

Deborah (41:55):
Deborah E McGee.

Jason (41:56):
Is it?
Deborah E.
McGee.
And, yeah, so, is it Kindle?
You can get it

Deborah (42:01):
Kindle.
It is also audio can also readit on the audio book.
You can download it.

Jason (42:05):
Did you do the audio for it?

Deborah (42:07):
did not.
I thought my voice was just alittle bit too Southern, but I
do love the

Jason (42:13):
cool to go through

Deborah (42:14):
re interviewed a lot of different people and put it this
way.
She made me cry.

Jason (42:18):
Aw, nice.
Good.
So you can get an audible, youcan get a Kindle.
That's good.
So you're an author, but Ialways like to ask my guests,
who do you like to read?
Who do you like to listen to?
Who are your favoritepodcasters, authors to keep
yourself sharp spiritually orleadership both?

Deborah (42:34):
you know,

Jason (42:34):
Like who do you,

Deborah (42:35):
probably for me, I love Patrick Lindsay.
I only have read over one of hisbooks.
I love John Gordon.
I love all of his books.
I've read every Bob Maxwell bookthat there is.
You know, so those are probablymy, and I, that's how I learned.
That's how I learned leadership.
That's how I metric myself wasthrough books.
I wish I'd had a person to do itfor me.

(42:55):
Um, but I knew what I waslooking for.
And that I think all of those,all of those individuals led me
to, I think they led me to theBible to actually read.
And be mentored by, by the oneperson who really could mentor
me.

Jason (43:09):
Yeah.
Well, and Lencioni and Maxwell,uh, very, very familiar with
both those guys is right.
I've read most of their stuff.
They're both

Deborah (43:17):
And it shows through

Jason (43:18):
so I'm actually.

Deborah (43:19):
they, they, their passion for people.
I mean, that's what we're allabout here is supporting each
other and taking care of eachother really is, is what I think
our mission on this earth.

Jason (43:28):
Yeah.
Yep.
That's right.
Hey, um, you've probably beenable to do this and mentoring
other people, uh, Deborah, butwhen you, if you've had somebody
to come to you and say, I havemy first opportunity to lead.
And I'd like to sit down withyou and get your advice on what
are some things I definitelyshould not do and some things I

(43:49):
should do as I take on this newleadership role.
What advice would you give

Deborah (43:53):
Um, first, what, what are you wanting to get out of
this?
What is it you're wanting toget?
You know, is it wanting titlemoney, prestige?
Cause that'll tell you right upfront.
Am I in it for me?
Or am I in it for theorganization or am I in it for,
for people?
And I would tell them, you know,take, take a moment and probably
read Troubadour, ServantLeadership.

(44:14):
That's probably the first book Iever read about servant
leadership.
Um, and, and really understandthat your, your job now, I'm
just like Jesus told us, youknow, the first will be last.
Your job is to wash feets andsupport in any way possible.
My, my team just did a majortraining, uh, recently in Hawaii
with the department of defense.
And these were, I mean, generalsand colonels in the room, big

(44:37):
people, right?
I didn't do any of the training.
I did the slides.
I helped put the rugs down.
I did everything my team neededto support.
My job is not always to be outfront.
My job is to support my

Jason (44:50):
Yeah.
Yep.
That's right.
No, and that feels good when youcan step back and they do their
thing.

Deborah (44:56):
better at it than I am, so.

Jason (44:58):
what Yeah, when I see my team, you know, collaborating
and working together and solvingproblems and I'm there to just
support them and they, you know,take the wheel and go.
That's, that's huge.
I mean, that's huge.
Yeah.
Hey, how do you, uh, how do youhonor Christ in your work as a
CEO of a company, a globalcompany?
Obviously not everyone there is,you know, believers.
It's a, you're serving, youknow, people inside, outside the

(45:20):
church.
Like how do you, when you gointo work every day, what are
some things you do to try to

Deborah (45:25):
well, I start my day, I start my day with, I mean, I
spend, you know, I usually, I'musually up at three 34 o'clock
in the morning.
I figure I can sleep when I'm,when I'm dead.
But, um, but I, you know, I'm upearly.
I usually try to spend at leastan hour, you know, reading,
reading my scripture, uh, doingmy prayers.
Um, I'm always listening toChristian music coming in.
It gets me in the right mainmainframe.

(45:46):
And I, you know, I have a hugewooden cross on my, on my
office.
Um, and I love the fact that it.

Jason (45:52):
Yeah,

Deborah (45:52):
We have a lot of windows.
So when I'm on a videoconference, it, it resonates
right there too.
You can see it.
And I want to make it clear.
I, you know, I, I lead the wayJesus Christ wanted me to lead.
Cause I look at this as hisbusiness, not mine.

Jason (46:07):
yeah, that's right.
Yep.
Yep.
And so, um, yeah, no, that'sgood.
What is your, what is your teamstructure look like?
And are you guys just completelyremote?
Cause I mean, you're all overthe world.
I'm just curious on what

Deborah (46:21):
return to work.
I've done tons of return tooffice, um, um, interviews
recently.
So we are, we probably haveabout 10 in Huntsville.
Um, that's where ourheadquarters is at.
We used to have probably aboutmaybe 15.
So, you know, that's gone down alittle bit.
But yeah, we have people inGermany.
I have people all over theUnited States.
We have people in, uh, inKentucky.

(46:42):
Um, you know, we have officesin, uh, in Italy.
I've been looking for someone topossibly work for me in Korea.
So, we'll see where that goes.
I've just got to get thecontracts.

Jason (46:52):
Yeah.

Deborah (46:53):
But yeah, remote work,

Jason (46:54):
gotta be a unique.

Deborah (46:55):
is tough.
Um, you know, I'm, I'm from theera before remote work.
Flexible work was maybe if I wasreally lucky is what we had

Jason (47:03):
Yeah.
Oh, yeah, for sure.

Deborah (47:04):
career and not remote work.
Um, and I have some that aremore efficient remote, um, than
they are in person.
My managers, um, we recentlyjust enacted a new, uh, process
where we'll be giving them aset, a set amount of stipend
basically every year.
For them to come to headquartersfour times a year, just to have

(47:25):
that interface with theleadership face, you know, one
on one and I've realized it, youknow, if I give them the money,
they can figure it out, butthese are their expectations and
their, their managers, they can,they can take care of it and I
think from, um, you know, if wesee people that are struggling
with remote work.
And we've done it before.
We brought them in to the officeto see how we can help their

(47:45):
skills and then send them backout because no one wants to feel
like they're working alone.
I'm a big believer you get 15minutes where we do Microsoft
Teams, you know, so we're,we're, we're teams all the time.
And yeah, we do expect that ifyou're on, and someone asks you
a question within 15 minutes,you should be able to answer
that question.

Jason (48:04):
Yeah.
Yep.
Yep.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's a definitely a uniquechallenge.
I'm and I'm with you, especiallybeing a manufacturing remote
work was unheard of beforeCOVID.
And now it's, you know, we havea few people that do it.
It's nice because when you needto be able to do it, the
technologies there, you know, Iactually did last week, last
week.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Oh my gosh.

(48:25):
Don't even get me started.
I'm like, how do we not havethis figured out yet?
So, yeah, but that's, I mean,managing, that'd be a good book
to write is managing remoteteams all over the world and how
you do that and how do yousustain culture and build
culture.
And that's all extra challenging

Deborah (48:41):
know what?

Jason (48:41):
there together.

Deborah (48:42):
a tidbit out that I'm very proud and I won't take
credit for it.
Our team came up with this and Ilove it.
We do what's called non meetingmeetings.
Every month we have a nonmeeting meetings and we do
remote and and we do hybrids sothat you know we've done how to
how to plant begonias, um, howto how to make a charcuterie
board.
You know, we brought in otherCEOs from other companies, um,

(49:06):
and talk to them about theirjourney and what they've done.
So it has nothing to do with thebusiness, nothing whatsoever to
do with the business and it'sjust a way for them to learn.
Yes.

Jason (49:15):
Yeah, that's great.
It's like lunch.
And I've seen companies do, andI've been a part of lunch and
learns where you're just like,Hey, we're having whatever.
This person's a financialplanner.
He's going to be here duringlunch today.
Bring your lunch to theconference room.
It's free.
They're just here.
That's cool.
And then yeah, you can do itremote so you can yeah people
can tune in from all over great.
Hey, uh before we wrap up.
I want to make sure people knowhow to get ahold of you I mean,

(49:37):
there's a I you know, just youprofessionally.
I mean, I know that you've gotyour business the book Let's
talk about all those ways.
They

Deborah (49:44):
own website, DeborahEMcGee.
com

Jason (49:47):
yep.
Okay, and that and then yourcompany is

Deborah (49:50):
And so www.
PZIGroup, um, and of course,LinkedIn.
Um, I'm on LinkedIn, uh,Facebook, um, personally and
professionally.

Jason (50:00):
Yeah.
You're pretty active onLinkedIn.
So yeah, I just connected theother day with you.

Deborah (50:04):
Yeah.
We're very active on LinkedIn.
I'm very fortunate.
I, I, it's a lot of years.
Put it that way.
A lot of years.

Jason (50:11):
I'm trying to think, I think I joined LinkedIn and Oh,
like seven maybe or away.
I remember a mentor

Deborah (50:19):
it was early 2000s

Jason (50:19):
there's this thing.

Deborah (50:21):
Early 2000s.

Jason (50:21):
Was it?
Yeah.
Yeah, it's come a long ways.
It's come a long way.
So yeah, we'll link to all thoseso people can reach out whether
they're, uh, again, recommendgrabbing the book for sure.
Um, yeah, I love those things.
Those are, it reminds me of, youknow, going back to my books
I've read John Maxwell andluncheone.
A lot of that is small stuffthat you're like, I can, I can
do this.
I can think differently aboutthis tomorrow.

(50:43):
I can do this right immediately.
It's not, these

Deborah (50:46):
They're not giant, huge steps.
DCIS didn't make it hard for us.
We make it hard for us.

Jason (50:51):
Yeah.
We do.
We overcomplicate it for sure.
Um, yeah.
So anything else you'd like tocover before we wrap

Deborah (50:57):
I think, you know, I think my message is comes
through loud and clear in thebook, and I hope in the company
as well as, you know, take timeto support each other.
Um, you know, because whenyou're, as my husband always
says, right, when you're dead,do you really want on your
tombstone how many reports yougot out and how many meetings
you attended, you know, or doyou want what you did for
people?

Jason (51:16):
Yeah.
Well, and you mentioned itearlier, especially for those of
us now with, uh, you know,grandchildren, you really start
thinking about that.
Your legacy really just want toimpact.
You just want to impact people,your kids, your grandkids, and
those you've worked with, youknow, for the Lord.
where possible, you know, toshare the gospel where you can
and live for him, work, work ina way that honors him is, uh,
that's huge.
So yeah.

(51:37):
well, Deborah, thank you forsharing your wisdom and faith
with us today.
It's been a privilege having youon the show and to our
listeners.
Thank you for tuning in again.
If you enjoyed thisconversation, I'd love To have
you connect with me, uh, you canleave a rating on your podcast
app.
Uh, you can also subscribe tothe YouTube channel, so you'll
get more great content that way.

(51:59):
and join us again next month aswe hear from another faith
driven leader striving to honorChrist in their work.
Until then, stay strong in yourcalling and keep leading with
excellence.