March 1, 2024 • 43 mins
Jeshua Lauka is an attorney based in Grand Rapids, Michigan. Devoted to advancing effective biblical leadership, Jeshua shares profound insights into what it means to be a servant leader in all spheres of life.
Beyond his professional journey, he opens up about his powerful personal testimony rooted in resilience and faith. Join us as we explore how God's work has shaped Jeshua's life and leadership principles, and how you can apply these lessons into your own contexts.
Don't forget to subscribe to our new YouTube channel for more of such inspiring content.
Resources mentioned on the show
- Jeshua's LinkedIn page
- Every Good Endeavor book
- Craig Groeschel Podcast
- John Maxwell books
- Faith Driven Entrepreneur
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Yeti Nano & Logitech BR (00:00):
Welcome to the Biblical Leadership at
Work podcast.
I am your host, Jason Woodard.
Before I introduce this month'sguests, I want to say how much I
appreciate those who listen andsupport the show.
My prayer has been that as longas there are listeners and
guests, I will continue to dothis ministry, Lord willing.
This is the beginning of ourthird season and I am excited to
(00:21):
announce that we are introducinga YouTube channel for the
podcast.
The channel will host the sameinterviews that you hear here
but with the video content ofthe show.
So be sure to check it out andsubscribe to the all new
Biblical Leadership at WorkYouTube channel.
Now, on to the show.
On this month's episode, youwill meet Jeshua Lauka, who is
(00:44):
an attorney working in GrandRapids, Michigan.
Jeshua is passionate aboutleadership and shares some
insightful words of wisdomregarding effective biblical
leadership.
He also shares about hisfascinating testimony, including
how his single mom took thefamily to church, regardless of
the potential roadblocks.
Jeshua (01:04):
but my mom, um, when she made the decision to take her
kids to church, she just.
Found someplace, um, that, uh,she knew, uh, she and my dad
when they were together beforewe were born, knew a pastor in
the, in inner city of Saginaw.
She tracked him down and we wentto his church, his small church
in the inner city of Saginaw,uh, and not a great part of
(01:26):
town.
I remember the first night goingto that church.
It was a Thursday night and wewere scared.
It was just, we didn't wanna thewalk from the parking lot to the
church.
Yeti Nano & Logitech BRIO (01:35):
I love how Jeshua shares his
realization as a teenager aboutwho Jesus was and who he came to
save.
Jeshua (01:43):
And it was there that encountered the God of the
universe who came down fromheaven to be with people like
me.
You know, I was a, I was anobody from a family of
nobodies, and that's who Jesusspent his time with.
He spent his time with thebroken, the outcast, the drunks,
the prostitutes.
The others of society.
And I saw God that wanted to bewith those people and would end
(02:06):
up dying for those people.
And so
Yeti Nano & Logitech BRI (02:07):
Jeshua gives us a lot to consider
regarding leadership in thisepisode.
But I love how he and his firmboil down their leadership
focus.
Jeshua (02:17):
And so what it boils down to, and I've been pretty
open to anybody sitting acrossthe table from us that are
interested in applying to workwith our firm, who we are.
We love God and we love people.
And, and that's just the bottomline.
And so those are those coredriving factors and that might
not work for, for everybody, butthat's who we are and that's
(02:39):
what drives everything that I dopersonally and as a firm.
I
Yeti Nano & Logitech BRIO (02:43):
So join me now as we get to know
Jeshua and hear how God isworking in and through him in
the area of law.
Jason (02:51):
All right.
Well, JE Laka brother, Iappreciate you, uh, being on the
podcast with me and, uh, gettingto know you today with the
audience.
Thanks for, thanks for takingtime outta your day.
Jeshua (03:01):
Very glad to be here.
Thanks for asking me, Jason.
Jason (03:03):
So let's, uh, let's dig right in and, uh, tell me a
little bit about your, yourcareer background.
You know, let's go back maybe toeducation and career progression
and what are you up to now?
Jeshua (03:15):
Yeah.
Thanks.
ThAnks for asking.
So, um, I'm a lawyer.
I, I I went to law school.
I always knew that I, that Iwanted to go to law school
particularly.
Um.
For me, when I came to Faith inChrist when I was 14, kind of,
um, under wanted to learn lawand wanted to do something that
(03:37):
was justice related, it, uh, itwas just a, a, a logical step
for me.
So went to law school ultimatelyat one of the few Christian law
schools in the country calledRegent out in Virginia Beach
area, and going there, um.
Really didn't know exactly whatI wanted to do.
I did know that at first Ithought maybe some international
(03:57):
nonprofit work, like withInternational Justice Mission or
something, something along thoselines.
But ultimately, um, ended upworking private practice in a,
in a business law firm inKalamazoo, Michigan.
And, um, after some time kind ofUh, understood that the things
that I really enjoyed, uh, aboutpracticing law.
So fast forward, uh, the last 12years or so, I've been at my
(04:21):
firm, David Ween and Laka wasDavid and Wga before I joined a
partner about five years ago.
So, David, we and Laka.
We're a boutique business lawfirm in downtown Grand Rapids,
Michigan.
We serve businesses anywherebetween a startup to a mid-size,
privately held business, and,um, we also serve families with
(04:43):
estate planning.
So business And estate planningand, uh, anything that has to do
with, with working withbusinesses and, um, and, and
estate plans as welfare forfamilies is what I do in the
other lawyers at my firm.
I've got two partners and we'vegot a couple of other attorneys.
We're growing and we've gotabout four other paralegals.
(05:03):
So, uh, a size about 11 fromabout 11 right now.
Jason (05:07):
So were you from the West Michigan area growing up?
Jeshua (05:10):
No, I wasn't.
I, I grew up in Saginaw, um,Saginaw, Michigan, which is very
Jason (05:17):
It is.
Jeshua (05:18):
culturally than West Michigan, and I've come to
realize that over the last 15years.
And there's a, there was areason we, we moved to the area
when my Wife and I got married.
We met at undergrad at MichiganState.
My wife was from the Lansingarea and she knew when, when we
were coming back to Michiganfrom Virginia Beach, she knew
the only place that she wantedto move was what the west part
(05:40):
of the state.
Uh, it's been a great place tolive and raise a family.
Jason (05:43):
great.
Yeah.
I think that people that aren'tfrom the state probably, you
know, you think Michigan isMichigan, but I, I'm sure in
many other states it's the sameway.
You've got, I think in Michigan,east and West and Upper Michigan
and those are three different,very different cultures and uh,
ways of living for sure.
So while we're on the topic offamily, tell us a little bit
about your family.
Jeshua (06:04):
yeah.
I'm married to my wife Annie.
Uh, it's, uh, been about, it'sgoing on 20 years, so it'll be
20 years in in October, and wehave four children, um, Isaiah,
Nolan, Tate and Elsa.
So three teenage boys and, uh, a10-year-old daughter, so 17, 14,
13, and a 10-year-old
Jason (06:22):
a lot of teenage stuff in the house at one time, brother.
That's, I'll be praying for
Jeshua (06:26):
Yes, it is.
Jason (06:27):
And.
Jeshua (06:28):
I appreciate that.
It's active and fun, but
Jason (06:30):
sure.
You know, every, every stage hasits challenges and blessings, so
that's one thing I've realized.
Uh, yeah, raising kids.
What, tell us a little bitabout, uh, how did you come to
faith in the Lord Je Did you,was it, you know, growing up in
a church, a home, or what didthat look like?
Jeshua (06:48):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Thanks Thanks for asking Jason.
And, and sometimes, um, peoplemake a lot of presumptions,
particularly About, about me,where I'm at.
My, I get asked about my namequite a bit, Jesu, and so some
assumptions, particularly inWest Michigan.
And, um, I did not grow up in aChristian household, so I grew
(07:09):
up in Saginaw, um, and some notgreat parts of Saginaw.
So I grew up in a pretty, uh,broken household.
My earliest memories were mymom.
And my dad, um, they weremarried, but they didn't live
together.
We were living my mom with mymom and my three brothers in a
relative's basement.
(07:29):
Neither my, both of my parentswere high school dropouts.
My dad was a heroin addict andhe was never around and so.
Ultimately, um, things in thehouse were very chaotic growing
up, and it was when I was ayoung teenager when I was 14,
that things were so chaotic andmy mom did not really know what
(07:50):
else to do.
She did not have a safety net.
So growing up with.
Chaos, trauma, um, alcoholism onone side, drug addiction on the
other.
a a father who was out of thepicture.
Uh, my mom didn't know what elseto do with a chaotic household
and she said she was gonna takeher kids to church.
And as a 14-year-old who,religion wasn't a regular part
(08:12):
of our life, I wanted nothing todo with it.
Jason (08:15):
thanks,
Jeshua (08:15):
It was just very, yeah, exactly.
No, thanks mom.
And, and looking back, I wouldsay, you know, religion for me,
probably I was agnostic at thetime as a teenager.
I thought I.
I looked around and thoughtthere had to be a God that
created everything, butcertainly not a God who was
knowable or cared about me or myupbringing or, or my family, but
(08:37):
my mom, um, when she made thedecision to take her kids to
church, she just.
Found someplace, um, that, uh,she knew, uh, she and my dad
when they were together beforewe were born, knew a pastor in
the, in inner city of Saginaw.
She tracked him down and we wentto his church, his small church
in the inner city of Saginaw,uh, and not a great part of
(08:58):
town.
I remember the first night goingto that church.
It was a Thursday night and wewere scared.
It was just, we didn't wanna thewalk from the parking lot to the
church.
And, um, Um, going into thatchurch, I remember just being,
uh, my first, my first thoughtswere I was just confused
listening to music, hearingpeople worship and talk, and I
(09:20):
just didn't understand whypeople would choose to spend
their time.
I.
To sing together, to sing andhear someone talk about an old
book.
I really didn't get it as ateenager.
My mom, I think to, to hercredit, she kept making us show
up and go to church.
And so at some point in time,um, as the pastor would talk, I
(09:41):
began to hear about Jesus.
And Jesus intrigued me.
And so I decided just to open upthe Bible in the pew in front of
me and go to the part thattalked about Jesus.
And it was there thatencountered the God of the
universe who came down fromheaven to be with people like
me.
You know, I was a, I was anobody from a family of
(10:02):
nobodies, and that's who Jesusspent his time with.
He spent his time with thebroken, the outcast, the drunks,
the prostitutes.
The others of society.
And I saw God that wanted to bewith those people and would end
up dying for those people.
And so it was around that timewhen I was 14, it was going to
church and, and wrestlingthrough these things.
(10:23):
And I thought, I, I, I, I justcame to this proposition in my
mind that if there was a God andthat God loved me so much, that
he would come down from heavento be with me and that God would
die for me.
That was the most radical truthin existence and that God
deserved my everything.
And so at, uh, at the age of 14,I gave my life to Jesus.
(10:48):
And, um, God radically changedthe trajectory of my life.
Jason (10:52):
he does.
Jeshua (10:52):
So things weren't perfect, but he changed the
trajectory of my life.
Jason (10:57):
What did your mom think?
I mean, did you, you know, wasyour, was your faith, your
newfound faith?
Was it, I guess, something thatshe hit was experiencing as well
or was it not?
So like, what was herperspective of what was going
on?
Jeshua (11:12):
Yeah, the good questions.
And, um, for, for people who, Iwill just say this, life is
messy,
Jason (11:19):
it is messy,
Jeshua (11:20):
Life is complicated.
Because of our, our, our, ourfallen nature life is just
complicated.
And, and so it's not, it's notbinary.
It's not either or.
It's my mom.
I I, my mom, um, she died acouple years ago and, um, as I,
as I watched her take her lastbreath, it was kind of this
(11:40):
bittersweet of looking at herlife and saying.
Life wasn't how it should be forher, it was, it was a hard life.
Yet knowing that when she died,she had a saving faith.
She, she did have a true faithThat her, she's more alive than
I am today.
So, so going to, going back,yes, she, she definitely grabbed
a hold of that faith.
(12:02):
There were a lot of barriers inher life.
I mean, that led to her making alot of poor decisions that
ultimately our kids.
That that are, that me and mysiblings were affected by, but
you know, growing up it, so the,the process of of, of my
conversion and, and growing up,part of that was healing work
that, that God had to do.
(12:22):
And, and it, it was a process.
And it's always a process.
It is, it's a lifelong
Jason (12:27):
Sanctification, right?
Like you said, it is messy.
It's not just a, it's not evenjust a linear Upward trend.
There's yeah.
Ups and downs.
That's an amazing story, man.
I love it.
I love hearing what, how Godworked in people's lives and
families.
So thank you for sharing thatwith us, Jeshua.
Jeshua (12:43):
Yeah, Thank you.
Jason (12:44):
awesome.
So let's talk a little bit aboutleadership.
I would like to understand, andwhat do you see as like your
core principle of leadershipwhen you think about, you know,
leadership, there's so much Thatgoes into that, and I, you know,
by now at where you are in yourcareer, I wonder what does that
kind of boil down for you,effective leadership for you?
Jeshua (13:06):
Yeah.
Wow.
That's, that's, that is, uh,it's a great question.
I think it's a timely questionwhere we are in our culture and
society, but, um, I.
I, I look at all of theseleadership books out there.
I, I love reading.
I'm a, I'm an avid reader.
I read a lot of differentleadership and, um, just being
(13:28):
effective.
And I think it really, it, itboils down to wisdom.
I.
I.
think that we can be, we can beknowledgeable and still be
unwise.
And when I look at these, thesebooks out there, these people
who've wrote in great, uh, greatbooks on, on wi on leadership
out there.
(13:48):
The, the commonalities I see theoverlap that, that they're just
obvious, um, are there.
And a lot of these commonalitiesrecognize Whether they overtly
recognize it in their books orwhere they just, it's implied is
that these are enduringprinciples that come from
someplace, and I would say theycome from The biblical truth of
(14:10):
who God is and who he's crate isto do be and how life just works
better when we have theseprinciples.
And so I model what leadershiplooks like off of Jesus the last
couple of years I've been, areable to articulate, as our firm
has grown over the last coupleof years, we, we started off,
uh, as a smaller law firm.
(14:32):
We still are, but we've justnaturally and organically grown.
And through that process, I andmy partners, we've done a lot of
interviewing as we've looked topotentially onboard new lawyers.
And part of that in onboarding,uh, that interviewing process
has allowed me to articulate ourfirm culture and our values.
And so what it boils down to,and I've been pretty open to
(14:55):
anybody sitting across the tablefrom us that are interested in
applying to work with our firm,who we are.
We love God and we love people.
And, and that's just the bottomline.
And so those are those coredriving factors and that might
not work for, for everybody, butthat's who we are and that's
what drives everything that I dopersonally and as a firm.
(15:16):
I have two partners.
We share core values, which isgreat to be, it's essential to
be aligned, but I can safely saythat that's who we are.
We love God and we love people.
And when we're focused onothers.
Others, meaning God and otherson the people that we serve,
whether it's people in our teamor it's the clients that we
(15:37):
serve or other relationships,then things just go better that
way.
Jason (15:42):
I think that too often believers do not see how their
secular, quote unquote, secularwork.
Advances the kingdom is afulfillment of their calling as
believers.
And I wanna get your thoughts,Jeshua, on how being a lawyer
and leading, helping to lead alaw firm does fulfill the
(16:02):
calling that God has placed onyour life and how it is in your
view, how do you see it askingdom work?
How do you see it as, uh, reallymission's work?
Uh, above and beyond even beingable to, you know, share the
gospel at work.
But I mean, the work itself,like how do you see that as
advancing the kingdom?
Jeshua (16:22):
Great question, and I, I don't want to misattribute this
quote.
It could have been a lot ofpeople that, the last person I
heard was maybe Tim Tebow, butin all things preach the gospel.
and when necessary use words.
Jason (16:36):
Yep.
Yeah, and I've had, you knowwhat, I will tell you I have,
uh, the pastor of our churchdoesn't like that saying, and I
understand why, because I thinkwhat he's trying to do is defend
against not sharing the gospelexplicitly, which I.
Jeshua (16:51):
hmm.
Jason (16:52):
which we should never do.
We're called to share the gospelexplicitly as we're given
opportunity.
And as those, uh, those chancescome to us and those
conversations come to us.
But I understand that saying Iappreciate because it's about
the 99% of the work that we dothat, that you do, that I do.
That's not explicitly verballysharing the gospel with someone
(17:13):
in our work, but it's just doingthe work and it's doing it in a
way that honors Christ and howwe do that work.
Jeshua (17:18):
Yes.
Yeah, that, that's true.
That, that's interesting.
And I can understand there'sprobably a def a there's,
there's a lot more context therewith, with what your pastor's
concern would be.
And I think that, for, for us,who are, are believers in in
Christ, um.
If we have received radicalgrace from God, if we know what
(17:41):
we have been saved from, thatreally should change everything.
Right?
And I, I, I remember having aconversation with a friend and,
um, it, it was along the line ofthere were some really good
groups out there that are veryevangelical in nature, that I'm
a part of, that are that, thatreally focus on this We really
need to share faith.
(18:03):
We really need to do, and I amall for sharing the good news.
Uh, um, he had a question to meabout, you know, a neighbor and,
and in interaction I had, Iexplained with a neighbor.
His question to me was, well,does your neighbor do, do you
think, do you think they knowthat you're a Christian?
And my, my, my gut reaction is,well, of course he should.
(18:24):
If, if I'm in a relationshipwith him, then the most
important thing, That defineswho I am is going to come
Jason (18:30):
Yes.
Quickly.
Very
Jeshua (18:31):
out with the things that Yes, very quickly, right?
It, it comes because my, my, thethings that I'm involved and the
things that I'm passionateabout, if you look at my
calendar, hopefully the thingsthat I am about reflect my
desire to know Jesus and Heavenglorified in everything that I
do.
And so yes, it's, it's kind ofthis, both, both and type I, I
(18:53):
completely get it, but.
So I do want to get back to yourquestion though.
And um, uh, could you remind meagain what, uh, I think,'cause I
did a little bit of detourthere.
Remind me of the
Jason (19:04):
So how do you, uh, basically it's how do you honor
Christ in the, in the work as alawyer?
Like your work as a lawyer, howdo you like,'cause I'm, I work
in manufacturing, right?
And some people might thinklike, how do you honor the Lord
and go in and making parts?
And I can articulate that andI'm working on it, still
sharpening that.
But I wanna hear, how do you goin and honor Christ through the
(19:26):
work that you do in your field?
Jeshua (19:28):
Yeah, there's a, there's a lot of different ways.
Um, what's been, what's beenhelpful for me as well is, uh,
is putting together this, Imean, everything, it, it's gotta
start with it.
Everything's gonna be anoverflow, Of, uh, of, of what's
being put into me.
And what I mean by that is I've,um, I heard it, and again, I, I
(19:51):
would misattribute this, so I'mnot gonna, I'm not gonna do
justify to the quote, but itreally stuck with me for the
last 25 years of the, the onlything that I have to offer
people, Is the fruit of my timewith Jesus.
That's the only thing that Ihave to offer is what's being
put into me.
And so I start, when I start mydays, I start it with the Lord.
(20:13):
And if I start with that and Ikeep at the center what's most
important?
What, so I I, I start the daysand, and I've got, I do as of
late, this is kind of a newthing that I've got my personal
mission statement of of who Iam, what I, and I look at it
every day and well, well, whatis for me today?
It's, it's at number one isit's, it's Matthew, it's, it's.
(20:37):
First seek his kingdom and hisrighteousness.
That's, that's what I'm doingtoday.
And so if I, if I go and I startmy day, then hopefully every
interaction that I have isintentional and it's, and it's
spirit filled.
And so, um, going into theoffice, going into work, getting
my mindset of What's mostimportant is my interactions
(20:59):
with people.
And so making sure that myinteractions with first my team
members is that it'sintentional.
It's not self-focused.
it's not agenda oriented.
It's about them and it's shagain, showing them the love of
Christ and making them feelvalued and loved.
Um, same thing with In, in anytype of interaction that I'm
(21:21):
having with clients.
Um, and then ba I guess, bathedwith excellence.
We're, we're required to be goodstewards of what we have and,
and, and perform excellence sothat we are, we are doing
everything well.
Um, doing it as we're doing itunto the Lord.
Jason (21:37):
And I think that's so important.
Uh, we talk about that a lot onthis show, is everything that we
do, doing it with excellence,because if we're not doing that,
and when the time does come thatwe're able to share specific,
you know.
Uh, the gospel specifically,like get a chance to tell
somebody about Christ and whathe's done for us.
If we're not working in a waythat's honoring him with
(21:59):
excellence and doing everythingat the very best that we can,
not only the what we do, but howwe do it and how we interact
with others and how we treatothers and how we serve others.
That's what I hear you saying isthat you want to go in and serve
your coworkers and serve yourcustomers.
And if we're not doing that,then You know, our, our
testimony's really gonna be hurtand maybe destroyed even.
Jeshua (22:21):
I, I think that's a huge understatement.
I think what you said iscritical.
You know, it's, it, it is,
Jason (22:28):
say you started to talk a little bit about your spiritual
disciplines, uh, Jesuit.
I always like to ask people thatwe interview about those.
So can you talk a little bitmore about what are the things
that you have.
In your life to ensure, youknow, sanctification that you're
growing, growing in your walkwith the Lord.
Jeshua (22:45):
Yeah, a a couple of things.
It, it has evolved over time.
Um, but what what has beenconsistent is, uh, we have a
busy house.
We've,
Jason (22:55):
like it.
You have had for about 10
Jeshua (22:57):
and yeah, life has been, bi life is full.
It's good.
It's, but when the day starts,it starts at a mile a minute.
And so for me, I need to startthe day before everyone in the
house is awake.
And so that's, that's when Istart, it's when it's quiet and
so that I have time to reflectand, and I have time to, to
(23:17):
spend time with the Lord.
I.
Um, reading is critical.
Reading, getting into his word.
I, I have, um, other materialthat I typically go through.
I am a huge, um, I, I just am,I'm a Tim Keller fan, and so I
go through his work.
It's talking about faith andwork.
Every good endeavor is one of myfavorite books.
I've read through it multipletimes.
(23:38):
Yeah, so I, yeah, I'm a hugeplug for that if you know the
whole faith and workconversation.
But, um, so I start making surethat you have time, that I have
time away, and then it's changeda lot over the years, but you've
got to be known, you've got tobe in community with others,
meaningful community.
And so, uh, really fighting forthat.
And it's changed over the years.
(24:00):
It's changed from groups and so,but for right now, the season
that I'm at is Um, reallyconnecting with just a couple of
people and making sure it's onthe calendar, consistent people
that have been in relationshipfor a while, that we're walking
in the same direction.
We have life circumstances thatare similar, um, a bunch of kids
and, and trying and owning abusiness, trying to run that.
(24:22):
And so it's making sure that I'mbeing known.
So that's, those are the regulardisciplines, but all of that
really only happens if you set,set aside time.
And be intentional about it, andthat that's always, always a
Jason (24:35):
And I think something else you mentioned that's
important for maybe even youngerparents and believers is that it
will change over time.
And that's okay.
As long as, as long as you stayat it.
And I've thought about this overthe years.
You know, our, our children, ouroldest is 28, our youngest is
18, you know, and so I've beenwalking with the Lord since our
(24:57):
oldest was born, so 28 years orso, and I think about how my
spiritual disciplines have grownand but also changed and yeah, I
think I.
And, and there's been times inmy life when it, uh, wasn't good
and it kind of dried up.
And I, I think the encouragementwould be for people who go
through those times is to, youknow, to keep pushing back on
(25:18):
that and be disciplined.
And if you miss a few days ormiss a few weeks, like, it
doesn't mean that you give up.
You go back and try it.
And if the morning doesn't work,maybe the evening does.
And if the evening doesn't work,maybe the morning does.
And you know, those, theircircumstances change over time.
now we have a granddaughteractually that lives in our
house.
But just, just, just one, uh, wedon't have a house full of
(25:39):
little ones running around.
And I know that's superchallenging when you do have a
lot of children at home, youknow, especially for, uh, moms
who are the caretakers.
To try to find 10, 15, 20minutes even of quiet time is
challenging.
But, uh, making sure you'reworking to carve that out is
super, super important in yourwalk with the Lord.
For sure.
Jeshua (25:59):
Yeah, and I think a good point that you raised.
I mean, it give yourself grace.
because grace, grace is theword.
Um, we serve a gracious God.
Jason (26:08):
We do serve a gracious God, and I think that the trap
of the enemy is to get us to apoint where we want to give up.
You know, we've, because wehaven't done it, we haven't been
faithful in something.
And that's not, yeah, that's notour, that's not the Lord's way.
He, his way is.
Forgiveness and grace, andcertainly repentance is part of
that, but then that means workat it again.
(26:29):
Go back at it again.
For sure.
Jeshua (26:32):
Right.
Jason (26:33):
Hey, Jeshua, a different question along the line of
leadership, again, when you wereearlier in your kinda leadership
journey, what was something thatyou struggled with and what have
you done to overcome that?
Or is it something that you'vejust had to manage that you
still struggle with as you'vegone further in that journey?
Jeshua (26:51):
Could.
Good question.
So, For, for me, it, I was putinto, uh, leadership positions
early, uh, particularly in, innonprofit board leadership.
And I would find myself so, youknow, 15 years ago as a new
board member, uh, for anonprofit being surrounded with
(27:14):
people that are 20, 30, 40 yearsMy senior and that those types
of, uh, of, of leadershippositions, they did give me a
little bit of imposter syndrome,a little bit of insecurity of I
don't belong at this table.
I'm, I'm, I'm too young.
I don't, somebody else is bettersuited for that.
(27:36):
I also, I, I think the, the, um,it was only about.
Eight years ago.
Eight years ago, when I servedas board president of Mel
Trodder Ministries, uh, one ofthe, uh, largest rescue missions
in Michigan, and stepping up asa 34-year-old, uh, to be
chairing this, this organizationthat's been around for over 120
(27:58):
years.
The board members, um, many ofall of them, my, my senior, a a
lot of the same type of I don'thave the experience of what it
takes and, and, and that thatwas something that I had to face
early on.
it really, it really helped forme to realize it wasn't about
me.
I mean, that was part of it isI'm, I'm there to serve.
(28:21):
I as a leader, we're there toserve.
It's not about us even now.
It's, it's, it's never, uh,about us.
It's about the people I.
That we serve.
So within our business, it's ourteam and it's with our
customers, but also in anonprofit setting, if we're
doing board service, boardleadership, we're there to serve
the stakeholders, the people,the guests that we serve.
(28:43):
It's not about us.
And I think that's probably,that's probably helped me.
We're all learning.
And just not to take myself tooseriously.
Jason (28:50):
Yeah, no, that's good.
That reminds me of, um, actuallypart of the sermon today at
church.
So Sunday, we're doing thisinterview on a Sunday and our
pastor was, we're workingthrough, uh, the book of Luke
and I'm gonna paraphrase thisloosely, I'm not looking it up,
but essentially Jesus had sentout the, the 70 or 72 and then
they came back.
So we were just reading the namewhere they came back and they
(29:12):
were super excited that theywere like, even we had power
even over the demons in yourname.
And he said, basically Jesussaid.
Uh, don't rejoice so much inthat.
Rejoice in the fact that yourbook is, your name is written in
the, in the book of life.
And you know, the pastor talkedabout how whether the ministry
that God's called you to isgoing well or not going well.
(29:36):
It's not you, it's not it, itisn't about you.
To your point, Jeshua, is you goserve and be faithful.
And he shared an example of amissionary, I think an early
missionary to China who spent 10years.
Before he ever saw his firstconvert.
And, you know, he said he wasfaithful.
It wasn't successful or notsuccessful, you know, he was
quote unquote successful becausehe was walking in obedience to
(29:58):
the Lord and what he called himto do, which meant, you know,
uh, sowing seed on very, veryhard soil.
So, I, I liked the fact that youand I have served on nonprofit
boards now for about, I guess,eight or nine years, and I
appreciate that because Uh, aswe've brought on younger people
and they've had a lot of valueto add, and I think I've had
(30:18):
those conversations with somepeople that we've tried to
recruit and they're like, no,it's, I, I'm not, you know, I'm
not ready for that.
And it's like, yeah, don't,don't let that get in the way if
you're being asked, you know,and just for sure you should
pray through it and, you know,get input from your spouse and
other people you trust.
But if those things were alldirecting you to go do that.
(30:39):
Then the Lord will equip you todo that work.
He is already equipping you todo that work.
So that's really
Jeshua (30:44):
that's absolutely right.
Jason (30:45):
good.
Jeshua (30:46):
Yeah.
So the word that I, that I thinkof there, and you mentioned it,
it's, it's, we're, it'sfaithfulness.
We're just called to befaithful.
That's all.
It's not about us.
Jason (30:56):
Hey, uh.
different question, but aboutleadership high level.
So if you look at the worldaround us, right?
How, just look out and say,what, what do you think is
biggest thing missing inleadership that's, that's having
the most detrimental impact?
And I'm talking, you look aroundbusiness, politics, you know,
(31:16):
what do you see as, as the thingthat's missing, the, the thing
that's missing, that's havingthe biggest impact?
There's a lot that's missing,but.
Jeshua (31:24):
Wow.
Yeah, there is a, there's anabsolutely lot.
Uh, and the word that that comesto mind, it kind of probably
ties in a little bit to what wejust talked about, but is
humility.
what is humility?
Humility is not thinking less ofyourself, it's just thinking
about yourself less.
Right.
Jason (31:40):
that saying.
Yeah.
Jeshua (31:41):
CS Lewis.
Yeah.
Mm-Hmm.
Jason (31:44):
Yeah.
Jeshua (31:45):
And I think we see that, we see a lot of, of
self-interest and it's, uh, it.
I think it's human nature, it'shuman tendency.
It's we put these, whether we,whether it's selfish ambition
that that got people to aleadership position or whether
we had good intentions and werose to that leadership position
and we just think we're carryingthe weight of the world on us.
(32:07):
So it's about us.
It's on us.
If we just Think less aboutourselves through this process.
So more, some people don't likethe term servant leadership, but
servant leadership is what comesto mind.
Humility.
Jason (32:20):
I had a supervisor years ago, um, used to walk, he would
walk up to people.
I, remember this just stood outso much and he would say, what
can I do for you?
And that's what he said that allthe time, and he meant it.
I was like, I've never, I'venever had a supervisor walk up
and say that, that's alwaysabout what can you do for me and
what do you need to be doingright now?
(32:41):
And this guy had that approach.
And I've always I don't know.
I've just always thought aboutthat and tried to have that same
approach with my, my team andsay, what, what can I do for
you?
Right?
What do you need for me?
How can I serve?
And it's, I know some leadersthat will say that.
How can I serve you?
And I think that that's sopowerful to say those words and
to, and to mean it.
Jeshua (32:59):
So a couple of things about that.
One, the fact that.
That memory of how that yoursupervisor treated you was so
impactful that not only do youremember it, but you model after
it.
It is, it's so counter-cultural,right.
It's so impactful.
But the second thing you said isto is to, is also to, to take
(33:19):
that but also to mean it.
And so to actually live thatout.
I think sometimes we get in thistrap of you have companies With
mission statements plastered allover, you've got Right.
They, they know, they, they'veread the books.
They know what they're supposedto do.
It's, it's, uh, you know, the,it's the mission that not is not
(33:40):
only in the walls, but livedthrough the halls.
As I I hear it's, is it actuallylived out?
And it has to be deep.
It has to transformative.
Jason (33:48):
I think that organizations should not plaster
that stuff everywhere.
And the reason that I say thatis it's if it's being lived out
truly, and we're all human, soit's never perfect, but if, if
the, if the top leadership teamis living it out day to day,
meeting by meeting decision bydecision, it doesn't, it doesn't
need to be plastered all overthe walls.
(34:10):
It just, yeah, it doesn't haveto.
And, and, and unfortunately toooften when it is, it's not being
lived out and it's all over thewalls, but it's not, it's not
being lived out.
So that drives cynicism,frankly, with people.
I think
Jeshua (34:23):
Yes.
Yes.
I, I agree.
It's, it's, it's very easy tolose trust of, of your team, the
people that you work.
It's, it's hard to gain an easyto lose.
Jason (34:33):
Exactly.
Destruction's always quickerthan, uh, creation in my
experience.
who are some people that youfollow authors.
Podcasters websites.
Like who do you, you, you saidyou read a lot, and that's, I
think, I think leaders, uh,should be readers, uh, for
another, like coin, anotherphrase there.
But, uh, who do you, who do youfollow?
Who do you read?
(34:53):
Who do you recommend?
Jeshua (34:55):
S uh, a a a lot and it's the breadth of kind of the areas
that, that I am really focusedon.
So from, from a leadershipstandpoint, um, I'm a huge fan
of, uh, of Craig Rochelle,particularly his, his leadership
Pat podcast, uh, John MaMaxwell.
Not only his podcast, but hisbooks.
Jason (35:15):
I love John Maxwell.
Yeah.
I came up on, he was the firstleadership author I ever read.
The 21 Year Refutable Laws ofLeadership.
Read that a long time ago.
Jeshua (35:23):
It is, it's in my, if I was in my office right now, it's
hanging up in my office.
That one particularly.
Yeah.
The, um, I, I mentioned a lot ofTimothy Keller, uh.
Yeah.
Although he's a, he's a pastor,a lot of his truths are directed
at leaders and he's, he doeshave some good leadership
content.
Um, another is, is John Gordon.
Um, John Gordon's got some goodleadership.
(35:45):
I love Stephen.
Uh, uh, Stephen Covey's, uh,seven Habits of Effective
People.
I, I, I read through that one.
I think a good one.
Um, you know, Jim Collins, goodto Great.
That's one that, uh, that again,those are these enduring
principles of truths that, that,that you get through them.
A couple of, uh, other authorsthat I read, and this is more in
(36:06):
the entrepreneurial space, uh,there, the, um, Dan Sullivan and
Benjamin Hardy have been readingthrough their books.
10 x is easier than two x and,uh, who not how.
Those are some that, that Iwould recommend.
Jason (36:20):
Yeah, no, I appreciate that.
And I'll, uh, link to those inthe, uh, In the podcast, and,
uh, so people can check thoseout.
Several of those I've read aswell that were super impactful.
John Maxwell, he gets mentioned,I'm gonna say 80% of the time
when I have people on this show.
And actually I had heard of
Jeshua (36:35):
He's the,
Jason (36:36):
he, he's like the guru, right?
I mean, he's the guru.
Yeah.
Jeshua (36:38):
Yes, that's right.
Yes.
Jason (36:41):
uh, Greg, is it Greg or Craig Gro.
Elle.
He, I heard about him from,yeah, from one of my, from one
of the people I interviewed andI've, I've listened to his, uh,
leadership podcast ever since.
It's very good.
Very good.
Yeah.
Jeshua (36:53):
Yeah.
I guess the other one that comesto mind along those lines, just
because his book was soinstrumental, um, it's Kerry
Newh.
He has a leadership podcast.
He's also a pastor.
He wrote a, a book called AtYour Best, that at a time in my
life when, um, the work, thelife balance was getting a
little bit out of hand.
(37:14):
It was those principles werereally life giving to me.
He's got great podcasts
Jason (37:18):
good.
Check that out.
Hey, what would you say tosomebody who's moving into a
leadership role for the firsttime?
Like maybe they come to you, afriend from church, and uh, you
know, they get their firstopportunity and they want some
advice from someone who's beendoing it for a while.
Je what advice would you give'em?
Jeshua (37:36):
Yeah, I, I think that it is the, the product of, um,
surrounding yourself with theright people, so not only
resources, I, I think that youcan learn an, an immense.
Amount of, of good principlesfrom, you know, any of the work
that you're familiar with thator that, that I just talked
about, about leadershipprinciples in either through
(37:59):
podcasts or books, but I thinkit's also, mentorship is
critical.
So finding some people, um, atleast one who's been there,
who's at least 20 years out,that's walked through those and
just clinging to them and, andin whatever time that they're,
they're willing to give you on aregular basis.
Uh, because we, we just, we needthose people who have walked
(38:21):
before ahead of us.
Jason (38:23):
I, uh, I can't, I can't agree more.
I think about a couple guys whohave helped me through my career
and one, one of'em is retiredand I still have called him on
occasion when I had a bigdecision to make or You know,
just get some advice from'em.
And what's interesting is howwilling, in my experience, that
these people are to help, tohelp, to get on a call, you
know, to spend some time withyou.
(38:44):
And, uh, yeah.
I think too often we, uh, weneglect that at our peril, so,
yeah.
Jeshua (38:51):
Oh, there's a lot there, Jason.
Yeah, I think so too.
I, it seems to me the peoplewho, in my experience, who've
had the most value to give, um,maybe I've been reluctant to
reach out because of their, oftheir status or because they
keep their right.
It's, but when I have reachedout, they have Made themselves
(39:12):
available to impart wisdom intome.
It is.
It's, it's interesting how thatworks.
Jason (39:16):
Who, uh, who else would you like to see come on this
podcast?
I.
Who do you know that's a aworkplace leader, you know,
who's been doing it for a whilewould have some words of wisdom?
Who do you think.
Jeshua (39:28):
Wow.
Yeah, there's a lot of differentcontexts there.
Um.
One.
Uh, so one, one organizationthat uh, I have just become
involved with over the last sixmonths is called Faith-Driven
Entrepreneurs, and it's a, it'sa fascinating Christ-centered
organization, uh, for, for.
(39:49):
For business owners,entrepreneurs, people are
entrepreneur and also investors,um, who might work with those
types of businesses.
And there's a couple of guys,even, even locally in Grand
Rapids who I'm starting, um,this, uh, west Michigan chapter
that might be great people totalk to.
So that, that's kind of morelocally.
But then there are, there areothers that offline I'd, I had,
(40:12):
um, that, that I could think ofthat I would definitely want to
Jason (40:15):
Good.
Jeshua (40:16):
your
Jason (40:16):
No, I would love to do that.
I'm always looking to, you know,find some people that can come
and really, this is just allabout Imparting wisdom and
helping each other grow asleaders, you know, and, uh, just
sharing ideas and maybe possiblynetworking and, uh, being able
to be more effective in our workand ultimately honoring the Lord
in that work and glorifying him.
So, yeah.
(40:37):
What's, uh, last question Ihave, I always ask everybody
when they come on, when you aredone with full-time work and you
got a white, you got a ways togo.
I don't think you're too closeto retirement, but.
Uh, you know, when the Lordmoves you out of full-time,
full-time work, what do you hopethat people will have remembered
about working with you?
Jeshua (40:56):
Yeah.
It goes back to my principle,my, oh, my, my focus is they
would look back and say, Jeshualoved God and he loved people,
and, and, and truly understoodthat, that that's who I was.
Jason (41:09):
Yeah.
Well, it's simple, but it's, uh,I love it.
Love God and love others.
Right?
That's, uh, that's what Jesussaid.
It all boiled down to.
was those two commandments.
So, hey, what's the best way forpeople to get ahold of you?
Je uh, if they wanna reach out.
And I, and I can link that inthe show notes too, but, uh,
what's the easiest way?
Jeshua (41:27):
Um, a couple of ways come to mind.
I mean, my email, email's thebest way to communicate my first
name, Jeshua dw law pc.com.
I don't really have otherprivate emails.
That's just what I use.
And, uh, the, the best way toconnect with me, I'm very active
on LinkedIn and so connectingwith me on LinkedIn, I found it
to be a great way to engage, um,with content that's good content
(41:51):
to learn, but also to connect inmeaningful ways like we are
here, Jason.
Jason (41:56):
Yeah.
No, I appreciate, I likedfollowing you on LinkedIn.
You are very active on there andI think have some, uh, some
great posts.
So I, that's how I found you.
So It is been good.
So we'll link to that on theshow notes.
Um, yeah, other than that man, Iappreciate your time.
It's been great hearing aboutyour testimony and this is the
first time I've had someone onhere who works in your industry
(42:16):
and field, so that's alwaysgood.
I like to have a broad range of,uh, people down to interview.
So thank you for your time, man.
I know you got a family and, uh,giving me an hour of your time,
uh, that means a lot, so Iappreciate it brother.
Jeshua (42:28):
Yeah, very, very glad to.
And, um, like I said, uh, it'salways good to connect
particularly with, uh, with, uh,people who are looking to follow
after Jesus and how to live itout in everything that we do.
So Jason, really good toconnect.
Jason (42:44):
brother..
And thank you for joining meagain this month as we meet
another leader striving to honorChrist in their work.
Please check out our new YouTubechannel where you can watch the
interviews and comment on thecontent.
I look forward to hearing backfrom you and being back again
next month.?
Welcome to the Biblical Leadership at
Work podcast.
I am your host, Jason Woodard.
Before I introduce this month'sguests, I want to say how much I
appreciate those who listen andsupport the show.
My prayer has been that as longas there are listeners and
guests, I will continue to dothis ministry, Lord willing.
This is the beginning of ourthird season and I am excited to
(00:21):
announce that we are introducinga YouTube channel for the
podcast.
The channel will host the sameinterviews that you hear here
but with the video content ofthe show.
So be sure to check it out andsubscribe to the all new
Biblical Leadership at WorkYouTube channel.
Now, on to the show.
On this month's episode, youwill meet Jeshua Lauka, who is
(00:44):
an attorney working in GrandRapids, Michigan.
Jeshua is passionate aboutleadership and shares some
insightful words of wisdomregarding effective biblical
leadership.
He also shares about hisfascinating testimony, including
how his single mom took thefamily to church, regardless of
the potential roadblocks.
Jeshua (01:04):
but my mom, um, when she made the decision to take her
kids to church, she just.
Found someplace, um, that, uh,she knew, uh, she and my dad
when they were together beforewe were born, knew a pastor in
the, in inner city of Saginaw.
She tracked him down and we wentto his church, his small church
in the inner city of Saginaw,uh, and not a great part of
(01:26):
town.
I remember the first night goingto that church.
It was a Thursday night and wewere scared.
It was just, we didn't wanna thewalk from the parking lot to the
church.
Yeti Nano & Logitech BRIO (01:35):
I love how Jeshua shares his
realization as a teenager aboutwho Jesus was and who he came to
save.
Jeshua (01:43):
And it was there that encountered the God of the
universe who came down fromheaven to be with people like
me.
You know, I was a, I was anobody from a family of
nobodies, and that's who Jesusspent his time with.
He spent his time with thebroken, the outcast, the drunks,
the prostitutes.
The others of society.
And I saw God that wanted to bewith those people and would end
(02:06):
up dying for those people.
And so
Yeti Nano & Logitech BRI (02:07):
Jeshua gives us a lot to consider
regarding leadership in thisepisode.
But I love how he and his firmboil down their leadership
focus.
Jeshua (02:17):
And so what it boils down to, and I've been pretty
open to anybody sitting acrossthe table from us that are
interested in applying to workwith our firm, who we are.
We love God and we love people.
And, and that's just the bottomline.
And so those are those coredriving factors and that might
not work for, for everybody, butthat's who we are and that's
(02:39):
what drives everything that I dopersonally and as a firm.
I
Yeti Nano & Logitech BRIO (02:43):
So join me now as we get to know
Jeshua and hear how God isworking in and through him in
the area of law.
Jason (02:51):
All right.
Well, JE Laka brother, Iappreciate you, uh, being on the
podcast with me and, uh, gettingto know you today with the
audience.
Thanks for, thanks for takingtime outta your day.
Jeshua (03:01):
Very glad to be here.
Thanks for asking me, Jason.
Jason (03:03):
So let's, uh, let's dig right in and, uh, tell me a
little bit about your, yourcareer background.
You know, let's go back maybe toeducation and career progression
and what are you up to now?
Jeshua (03:15):
Yeah.
Thanks.
ThAnks for asking.
So, um, I'm a lawyer.
I, I I went to law school.
I always knew that I, that Iwanted to go to law school
particularly.
Um.
For me, when I came to Faith inChrist when I was 14, kind of,
um, under wanted to learn lawand wanted to do something that
(03:37):
was justice related, it, uh, itwas just a, a, a logical step
for me.
So went to law school ultimatelyat one of the few Christian law
schools in the country calledRegent out in Virginia Beach
area, and going there, um.
Really didn't know exactly whatI wanted to do.
I did know that at first Ithought maybe some international
(03:57):
nonprofit work, like withInternational Justice Mission or
something, something along thoselines.
But ultimately, um, ended upworking private practice in a,
in a business law firm inKalamazoo, Michigan.
And, um, after some time kind ofUh, understood that the things
that I really enjoyed, uh, aboutpracticing law.
So fast forward, uh, the last 12years or so, I've been at my
(04:21):
firm, David Ween and Laka wasDavid and Wga before I joined a
partner about five years ago.
So, David, we and Laka.
We're a boutique business lawfirm in downtown Grand Rapids,
Michigan.
We serve businesses anywherebetween a startup to a mid-size,
privately held business, and,um, we also serve families with
(04:43):
estate planning.
So business And estate planningand, uh, anything that has to do
with, with working withbusinesses and, um, and, and
estate plans as welfare forfamilies is what I do in the
other lawyers at my firm.
I've got two partners and we'vegot a couple of other attorneys.
We're growing and we've gotabout four other paralegals.
(05:03):
So, uh, a size about 11 fromabout 11 right now.
Jason (05:07):
So were you from the West Michigan area growing up?
Jeshua (05:10):
No, I wasn't.
I, I grew up in Saginaw, um,Saginaw, Michigan, which is very
Jason (05:17):
It is.
Jeshua (05:18):
culturally than West Michigan, and I've come to
realize that over the last 15years.
And there's a, there was areason we, we moved to the area
when my Wife and I got married.
We met at undergrad at MichiganState.
My wife was from the Lansingarea and she knew when, when we
were coming back to Michiganfrom Virginia Beach, she knew
the only place that she wantedto move was what the west part
(05:40):
of the state.
Uh, it's been a great place tolive and raise a family.
Jason (05:43):
great.
Yeah.
I think that people that aren'tfrom the state probably, you
know, you think Michigan isMichigan, but I, I'm sure in
many other states it's the sameway.
You've got, I think in Michigan,east and West and Upper Michigan
and those are three different,very different cultures and uh,
ways of living for sure.
So while we're on the topic offamily, tell us a little bit
about your family.
Jeshua (06:04):
yeah.
I'm married to my wife Annie.
Uh, it's, uh, been about, it'sgoing on 20 years, so it'll be
20 years in in October, and wehave four children, um, Isaiah,
Nolan, Tate and Elsa.
So three teenage boys and, uh, a10-year-old daughter, so 17, 14,
13, and a 10-year-old
Jason (06:22):
a lot of teenage stuff in the house at one time, brother.
That's, I'll be praying for
Jeshua (06:26):
Yes, it is.
Jason (06:27):
And.
Jeshua (06:28):
I appreciate that.
It's active and fun, but
Jason (06:30):
sure.
You know, every, every stage hasits challenges and blessings, so
that's one thing I've realized.
Uh, yeah, raising kids.
What, tell us a little bitabout, uh, how did you come to
faith in the Lord Je Did you,was it, you know, growing up in
a church, a home, or what didthat look like?
Jeshua (06:48):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Thanks Thanks for asking Jason.
And, and sometimes, um, peoplemake a lot of presumptions,
particularly About, about me,where I'm at.
My, I get asked about my namequite a bit, Jesu, and so some
assumptions, particularly inWest Michigan.
And, um, I did not grow up in aChristian household, so I grew
(07:09):
up in Saginaw, um, and some notgreat parts of Saginaw.
So I grew up in a pretty, uh,broken household.
My earliest memories were mymom.
And my dad, um, they weremarried, but they didn't live
together.
We were living my mom with mymom and my three brothers in a
relative's basement.
(07:29):
Neither my, both of my parentswere high school dropouts.
My dad was a heroin addict andhe was never around and so.
Ultimately, um, things in thehouse were very chaotic growing
up, and it was when I was ayoung teenager when I was 14,
that things were so chaotic andmy mom did not really know what
(07:50):
else to do.
She did not have a safety net.
So growing up with.
Chaos, trauma, um, alcoholism onone side, drug addiction on the
other.
a a father who was out of thepicture.
Uh, my mom didn't know what elseto do with a chaotic household
and she said she was gonna takeher kids to church.
And as a 14-year-old who,religion wasn't a regular part
(08:12):
of our life, I wanted nothing todo with it.
Jason (08:15):
thanks,
Jeshua (08:15):
It was just very, yeah, exactly.
No, thanks mom.
And, and looking back, I wouldsay, you know, religion for me,
probably I was agnostic at thetime as a teenager.
I thought I.
I looked around and thoughtthere had to be a God that
created everything, butcertainly not a God who was
knowable or cared about me or myupbringing or, or my family, but
(08:37):
my mom, um, when she made thedecision to take her kids to
church, she just.
Found someplace, um, that, uh,she knew, uh, she and my dad
when they were together beforewe were born, knew a pastor in
the, in inner city of Saginaw.
She tracked him down and we wentto his church, his small church
in the inner city of Saginaw,uh, and not a great part of
(08:58):
town.
I remember the first night goingto that church.
It was a Thursday night and wewere scared.
It was just, we didn't wanna thewalk from the parking lot to the
church.
And, um, Um, going into thatchurch, I remember just being,
uh, my first, my first thoughtswere I was just confused
listening to music, hearingpeople worship and talk, and I
(09:20):
just didn't understand whypeople would choose to spend
their time.
I.
To sing together, to sing andhear someone talk about an old
book.
I really didn't get it as ateenager.
My mom, I think to, to hercredit, she kept making us show
up and go to church.
And so at some point in time,um, as the pastor would talk, I
(09:41):
began to hear about Jesus.
And Jesus intrigued me.
And so I decided just to open upthe Bible in the pew in front of
me and go to the part thattalked about Jesus.
And it was there thatencountered the God of the
universe who came down fromheaven to be with people like
me.
You know, I was a, I was anobody from a family of
(10:02):
nobodies, and that's who Jesusspent his time with.
He spent his time with thebroken, the outcast, the drunks,
the prostitutes.
The others of society.
And I saw God that wanted to bewith those people and would end
up dying for those people.
And so it was around that timewhen I was 14, it was going to
church and, and wrestlingthrough these things.
(10:23):
And I thought, I, I, I, I justcame to this proposition in my
mind that if there was a God andthat God loved me so much, that
he would come down from heavento be with me and that God would
die for me.
That was the most radical truthin existence and that God
deserved my everything.
And so at, uh, at the age of 14,I gave my life to Jesus.
(10:48):
And, um, God radically changedthe trajectory of my life.
Jason (10:52):
he does.
Jeshua (10:52):
So things weren't perfect, but he changed the
trajectory of my life.
Jason (10:57):
What did your mom think?
I mean, did you, you know, wasyour, was your faith, your
newfound faith?
Was it, I guess, something thatshe hit was experiencing as well
or was it not?
So like, what was herperspective of what was going
on?
Jeshua (11:12):
Yeah, the good questions.
And, um, for, for people who, Iwill just say this, life is
messy,
Jason (11:19):
it is messy,
Jeshua (11:20):
Life is complicated.
Because of our, our, our, ourfallen nature life is just
complicated.
And, and so it's not, it's notbinary.
It's not either or.
It's my mom.
I I, my mom, um, she died acouple years ago and, um, as I,
as I watched her take her lastbreath, it was kind of this
(11:40):
bittersweet of looking at herlife and saying.
Life wasn't how it should be forher, it was, it was a hard life.
Yet knowing that when she died,she had a saving faith.
She, she did have a true faithThat her, she's more alive than
I am today.
So, so going to, going back,yes, she, she definitely grabbed
a hold of that faith.
(12:02):
There were a lot of barriers inher life.
I mean, that led to her making alot of poor decisions that
ultimately our kids.
That that are, that me and mysiblings were affected by, but
you know, growing up it, so the,the process of of, of my
conversion and, and growing up,part of that was healing work
that, that God had to do.
(12:22):
And, and it, it was a process.
And it's always a process.
It is, it's a lifelong
Jason (12:27):
Sanctification, right?
Like you said, it is messy.
It's not just a, it's not evenjust a linear Upward trend.
There's yeah.
Ups and downs.
That's an amazing story, man.
I love it.
I love hearing what, how Godworked in people's lives and
families.
So thank you for sharing thatwith us, Jeshua.
Jeshua (12:43):
Yeah, Thank you.
Jason (12:44):
awesome.
So let's talk a little bit aboutleadership.
I would like to understand, andwhat do you see as like your
core principle of leadershipwhen you think about, you know,
leadership, there's so much Thatgoes into that, and I, you know,
by now at where you are in yourcareer, I wonder what does that
kind of boil down for you,effective leadership for you?
Jeshua (13:06):
Yeah.
Wow.
That's, that's, that is, uh,it's a great question.
I think it's a timely questionwhere we are in our culture and
society, but, um, I.
I, I look at all of theseleadership books out there.
I, I love reading.
I'm a, I'm an avid reader.
I read a lot of differentleadership and, um, just being
(13:28):
effective.
And I think it really, it, itboils down to wisdom.
I.
I.
think that we can be, we can beknowledgeable and still be
unwise.
And when I look at these, thesebooks out there, these people
who've wrote in great, uh, greatbooks on, on wi on leadership
out there.
(13:48):
The, the commonalities I see theoverlap that, that they're just
obvious, um, are there.
And a lot of these commonalitiesrecognize Whether they overtly
recognize it in their books orwhere they just, it's implied is
that these are enduringprinciples that come from
someplace, and I would say theycome from The biblical truth of
(14:10):
who God is and who he's crate isto do be and how life just works
better when we have theseprinciples.
And so I model what leadershiplooks like off of Jesus the last
couple of years I've been, areable to articulate, as our firm
has grown over the last coupleof years, we, we started off,
uh, as a smaller law firm.
(14:32):
We still are, but we've justnaturally and organically grown.
And through that process, I andmy partners, we've done a lot of
interviewing as we've looked topotentially onboard new lawyers.
And part of that in onboarding,uh, that interviewing process
has allowed me to articulate ourfirm culture and our values.
And so what it boils down to,and I've been pretty open to
(14:55):
anybody sitting across the tablefrom us that are interested in
applying to work with our firm,who we are.
We love God and we love people.
And, and that's just the bottomline.
And so those are those coredriving factors and that might
not work for, for everybody, butthat's who we are and that's
what drives everything that I dopersonally and as a firm.
(15:16):
I have two partners.
We share core values, which isgreat to be, it's essential to
be aligned, but I can safely saythat that's who we are.
We love God and we love people.
And when we're focused onothers.
Others, meaning God and otherson the people that we serve,
whether it's people in our teamor it's the clients that we
(15:37):
serve or other relationships,then things just go better that
way.
Jason (15:42):
I think that too often believers do not see how their
secular, quote unquote, secularwork.
Advances the kingdom is afulfillment of their calling as
believers.
And I wanna get your thoughts,Jeshua, on how being a lawyer
and leading, helping to lead alaw firm does fulfill the
(16:02):
calling that God has placed onyour life and how it is in your
view, how do you see it askingdom work?
How do you see it as, uh, reallymission's work?
Uh, above and beyond even beingable to, you know, share the
gospel at work.
But I mean, the work itself,like how do you see that as
advancing the kingdom?
Jeshua (16:22):
Great question, and I, I don't want to misattribute this
quote.
It could have been a lot ofpeople that, the last person I
heard was maybe Tim Tebow, butin all things preach the gospel.
and when necessary use words.
Jason (16:36):
Yep.
Yeah, and I've had, you knowwhat, I will tell you I have,
uh, the pastor of our churchdoesn't like that saying, and I
understand why, because I thinkwhat he's trying to do is defend
against not sharing the gospelexplicitly, which I.
Jeshua (16:51):
hmm.
Jason (16:52):
which we should never do.
We're called to share the gospelexplicitly as we're given
opportunity.
And as those, uh, those chancescome to us and those
conversations come to us.
But I understand that saying Iappreciate because it's about
the 99% of the work that we dothat, that you do, that I do.
That's not explicitly verballysharing the gospel with someone
(17:13):
in our work, but it's just doingthe work and it's doing it in a
way that honors Christ and howwe do that work.
Jeshua (17:18):
Yes.
Yeah, that, that's true.
That, that's interesting.
And I can understand there'sprobably a def a there's,
there's a lot more context therewith, with what your pastor's
concern would be.
And I think that, for, for us,who are, are believers in in
Christ, um.
If we have received radicalgrace from God, if we know what
(17:41):
we have been saved from, thatreally should change everything.
Right?
And I, I, I remember having aconversation with a friend and,
um, it, it was along the line ofthere were some really good
groups out there that are veryevangelical in nature, that I'm
a part of, that are that, thatreally focus on this We really
need to share faith.
(18:03):
We really need to do, and I amall for sharing the good news.
Uh, um, he had a question to meabout, you know, a neighbor and,
and in interaction I had, Iexplained with a neighbor.
His question to me was, well,does your neighbor do, do you
think, do you think they knowthat you're a Christian?
And my, my, my gut reaction is,well, of course he should.
(18:24):
If, if I'm in a relationshipwith him, then the most
important thing, That defineswho I am is going to come
Jason (18:30):
Yes.
Quickly.
Very
Jeshua (18:31):
out with the things that Yes, very quickly, right?
It, it comes because my, my, thethings that I'm involved and the
things that I'm passionateabout, if you look at my
calendar, hopefully the thingsthat I am about reflect my
desire to know Jesus and Heavenglorified in everything that I
do.
And so yes, it's, it's kind ofthis, both, both and type I, I
(18:53):
completely get it, but.
So I do want to get back to yourquestion though.
And um, uh, could you remind meagain what, uh, I think,'cause I
did a little bit of detourthere.
Remind me of the
Jason (19:04):
So how do you, uh, basically it's how do you honor
Christ in the, in the work as alawyer?
Like your work as a lawyer, howdo you like,'cause I'm, I work
in manufacturing, right?
And some people might thinklike, how do you honor the Lord
and go in and making parts?
And I can articulate that andI'm working on it, still
sharpening that.
But I wanna hear, how do you goin and honor Christ through the
(19:26):
work that you do in your field?
Jeshua (19:28):
Yeah, there's a, there's a lot of different ways.
Um, what's been, what's beenhelpful for me as well is, uh,
is putting together this, Imean, everything, it, it's gotta
start with it.
Everything's gonna be anoverflow, Of, uh, of, of what's
being put into me.
And what I mean by that is I've,um, I heard it, and again, I, I
(19:51):
would misattribute this, so I'mnot gonna, I'm not gonna do
justify to the quote, but itreally stuck with me for the
last 25 years of the, the onlything that I have to offer
people, Is the fruit of my timewith Jesus.
That's the only thing that Ihave to offer is what's being
put into me.
And so I start, when I start mydays, I start it with the Lord.
(20:13):
And if I start with that and Ikeep at the center what's most
important?
What, so I I, I start the daysand, and I've got, I do as of
late, this is kind of a newthing that I've got my personal
mission statement of of who Iam, what I, and I look at it
every day and well, well, whatis for me today?
It's, it's at number one isit's, it's Matthew, it's, it's.
(20:37):
First seek his kingdom and hisrighteousness.
That's, that's what I'm doingtoday.
And so if I, if I go and I startmy day, then hopefully every
interaction that I have isintentional and it's, and it's
spirit filled.
And so, um, going into theoffice, going into work, getting
my mindset of What's mostimportant is my interactions
(20:59):
with people.
And so making sure that myinteractions with first my team
members is that it'sintentional.
It's not self-focused.
it's not agenda oriented.
It's about them and it's shagain, showing them the love of
Christ and making them feelvalued and loved.
Um, same thing with In, in anytype of interaction that I'm
(21:21):
having with clients.
Um, and then ba I guess, bathedwith excellence.
We're, we're required to be goodstewards of what we have and,
and, and perform excellence sothat we are, we are doing
everything well.
Um, doing it as we're doing itunto the Lord.
Jason (21:37):
And I think that's so important.
Uh, we talk about that a lot onthis show, is everything that we
do, doing it with excellence,because if we're not doing that,
and when the time does come thatwe're able to share specific,
you know.
Uh, the gospel specifically,like get a chance to tell
somebody about Christ and whathe's done for us.
If we're not working in a waythat's honoring him with
(21:59):
excellence and doing everythingat the very best that we can,
not only the what we do, but howwe do it and how we interact
with others and how we treatothers and how we serve others.
That's what I hear you saying isthat you want to go in and serve
your coworkers and serve yourcustomers.
And if we're not doing that,then You know, our, our
testimony's really gonna be hurtand maybe destroyed even.
Jeshua (22:21):
I, I think that's a huge understatement.
I think what you said iscritical.
You know, it's, it, it is,
Jason (22:28):
say you started to talk a little bit about your spiritual
disciplines, uh, Jesuit.
I always like to ask people thatwe interview about those.
So can you talk a little bitmore about what are the things
that you have.
In your life to ensure, youknow, sanctification that you're
growing, growing in your walkwith the Lord.
Jeshua (22:45):
Yeah, a a couple of things.
It, it has evolved over time.
Um, but what what has beenconsistent is, uh, we have a
busy house.
We've,
Jason (22:55):
like it.
You have had for about 10
Jeshua (22:57):
and yeah, life has been, bi life is full.
It's good.
It's, but when the day starts,it starts at a mile a minute.
And so for me, I need to startthe day before everyone in the
house is awake.
And so that's, that's when Istart, it's when it's quiet and
so that I have time to reflectand, and I have time to, to
(23:17):
spend time with the Lord.
I.
Um, reading is critical.
Reading, getting into his word.
I, I have, um, other materialthat I typically go through.
I am a huge, um, I, I just am,I'm a Tim Keller fan, and so I
go through his work.
It's talking about faith andwork.
Every good endeavor is one of myfavorite books.
I've read through it multipletimes.
(23:38):
Yeah, so I, yeah, I'm a hugeplug for that if you know the
whole faith and workconversation.
But, um, so I start making surethat you have time, that I have
time away, and then it's changeda lot over the years, but you've
got to be known, you've got tobe in community with others,
meaningful community.
And so, uh, really fighting forthat.
And it's changed over the years.
(24:00):
It's changed from groups and so,but for right now, the season
that I'm at is Um, reallyconnecting with just a couple of
people and making sure it's onthe calendar, consistent people
that have been in relationshipfor a while, that we're walking
in the same direction.
We have life circumstances thatare similar, um, a bunch of kids
and, and trying and owning abusiness, trying to run that.
(24:22):
And so it's making sure that I'mbeing known.
So that's, those are the regulardisciplines, but all of that
really only happens if you set,set aside time.
And be intentional about it, andthat that's always, always a
Jason (24:35):
And I think something else you mentioned that's
important for maybe even youngerparents and believers is that it
will change over time.
And that's okay.
As long as, as long as you stayat it.
And I've thought about this overthe years.
You know, our, our children, ouroldest is 28, our youngest is
18, you know, and so I've beenwalking with the Lord since our
(24:57):
oldest was born, so 28 years orso, and I think about how my
spiritual disciplines have grownand but also changed and yeah, I
think I.
And, and there's been times inmy life when it, uh, wasn't good
and it kind of dried up.
And I, I think the encouragementwould be for people who go
through those times is to, youknow, to keep pushing back on
(25:18):
that and be disciplined.
And if you miss a few days ormiss a few weeks, like, it
doesn't mean that you give up.
You go back and try it.
And if the morning doesn't work,maybe the evening does.
And if the evening doesn't work,maybe the morning does.
And you know, those, theircircumstances change over time.
now we have a granddaughteractually that lives in our
house.
But just, just, just one, uh, wedon't have a house full of
(25:39):
little ones running around.
And I know that's superchallenging when you do have a
lot of children at home, youknow, especially for, uh, moms
who are the caretakers.
To try to find 10, 15, 20minutes even of quiet time is
challenging.
But, uh, making sure you'reworking to carve that out is
super, super important in yourwalk with the Lord.
For sure.
Jeshua (25:59):
Yeah, and I think a good point that you raised.
I mean, it give yourself grace.
because grace, grace is theword.
Um, we serve a gracious God.
Jason (26:08):
We do serve a gracious God, and I think that the trap
of the enemy is to get us to apoint where we want to give up.
You know, we've, because wehaven't done it, we haven't been
faithful in something.
And that's not, yeah, that's notour, that's not the Lord's way.
He, his way is.
Forgiveness and grace, andcertainly repentance is part of
that, but then that means workat it again.
(26:29):
Go back at it again.
For sure.
Jeshua (26:32):
Right.
Jason (26:33):
Hey, Jeshua, a different question along the line of
leadership, again, when you wereearlier in your kinda leadership
journey, what was something thatyou struggled with and what have
you done to overcome that?
Or is it something that you'vejust had to manage that you
still struggle with as you'vegone further in that journey?
Jeshua (26:51):
Could.
Good question.
So, For, for me, it, I was putinto, uh, leadership positions
early, uh, particularly in, innonprofit board leadership.
And I would find myself so, youknow, 15 years ago as a new
board member, uh, for anonprofit being surrounded with
(27:14):
people that are 20, 30, 40 yearsMy senior and that those types
of, uh, of, of leadershippositions, they did give me a
little bit of imposter syndrome,a little bit of insecurity of I
don't belong at this table.
I'm, I'm, I'm too young.
I don't, somebody else is bettersuited for that.
(27:36):
I also, I, I think the, the, um,it was only about.
Eight years ago.
Eight years ago, when I servedas board president of Mel
Trodder Ministries, uh, one ofthe, uh, largest rescue missions
in Michigan, and stepping up asa 34-year-old, uh, to be
chairing this, this organizationthat's been around for over 120
(27:58):
years.
The board members, um, many ofall of them, my, my senior, a a
lot of the same type of I don'thave the experience of what it
takes and, and, and that thatwas something that I had to face
early on.
it really, it really helped forme to realize it wasn't about
me.
I mean, that was part of it isI'm, I'm there to serve.
(28:21):
I as a leader, we're there toserve.
It's not about us even now.
It's, it's, it's never, uh,about us.
It's about the people I.
That we serve.
So within our business, it's ourteam and it's with our
customers, but also in anonprofit setting, if we're
doing board service, boardleadership, we're there to serve
the stakeholders, the people,the guests that we serve.
(28:43):
It's not about us.
And I think that's probably,that's probably helped me.
We're all learning.
And just not to take myself tooseriously.
Jason (28:50):
Yeah, no, that's good.
That reminds me of, um, actuallypart of the sermon today at
church.
So Sunday, we're doing thisinterview on a Sunday and our
pastor was, we're workingthrough, uh, the book of Luke
and I'm gonna paraphrase thisloosely, I'm not looking it up,
but essentially Jesus had sentout the, the 70 or 72 and then
they came back.
So we were just reading the namewhere they came back and they
(29:12):
were super excited that theywere like, even we had power
even over the demons in yourname.
And he said, basically Jesussaid.
Uh, don't rejoice so much inthat.
Rejoice in the fact that yourbook is, your name is written in
the, in the book of life.
And you know, the pastor talkedabout how whether the ministry
that God's called you to isgoing well or not going well.
(29:36):
It's not you, it's not it, itisn't about you.
To your point, Jeshua, is you goserve and be faithful.
And he shared an example of amissionary, I think an early
missionary to China who spent 10years.
Before he ever saw his firstconvert.
And, you know, he said he wasfaithful.
It wasn't successful or notsuccessful, you know, he was
quote unquote successful becausehe was walking in obedience to
(29:58):
the Lord and what he called himto do, which meant, you know,
uh, sowing seed on very, veryhard soil.
So, I, I liked the fact that youand I have served on nonprofit
boards now for about, I guess,eight or nine years, and I
appreciate that because Uh, aswe've brought on younger people
and they've had a lot of valueto add, and I think I've had
(30:18):
those conversations with somepeople that we've tried to
recruit and they're like, no,it's, I, I'm not, you know, I'm
not ready for that.
And it's like, yeah, don't,don't let that get in the way if
you're being asked, you know,and just for sure you should
pray through it and, you know,get input from your spouse and
other people you trust.
But if those things were alldirecting you to go do that.
(30:39):
Then the Lord will equip you todo that work.
He is already equipping you todo that work.
So that's really
Jeshua (30:44):
that's absolutely right.
Jason (30:45):
good.
Jeshua (30:46):
Yeah.
So the word that I, that I thinkof there, and you mentioned it,
it's, it's, we're, it'sfaithfulness.
We're just called to befaithful.
That's all.
It's not about us.
Jason (30:56):
Hey, uh.
different question, but aboutleadership high level.
So if you look at the worldaround us, right?
How, just look out and say,what, what do you think is
biggest thing missing inleadership that's, that's having
the most detrimental impact?
And I'm talking, you look aroundbusiness, politics, you know,
(31:16):
what do you see as, as the thingthat's missing, the, the thing
that's missing, that's havingthe biggest impact?
There's a lot that's missing,but.
Jeshua (31:24):
Wow.
Yeah, there is a, there's anabsolutely lot.
Uh, and the word that that comesto mind, it kind of probably
ties in a little bit to what wejust talked about, but is
humility.
what is humility?
Humility is not thinking less ofyourself, it's just thinking
about yourself less.
Right.
Jason (31:40):
that saying.
Yeah.
Jeshua (31:41):
CS Lewis.
Yeah.
Mm-Hmm.
Jason (31:44):
Yeah.
Jeshua (31:45):
And I think we see that, we see a lot of, of
self-interest and it's, uh, it.
I think it's human nature, it'shuman tendency.
It's we put these, whether we,whether it's selfish ambition
that that got people to aleadership position or whether
we had good intentions and werose to that leadership position
and we just think we're carryingthe weight of the world on us.
(32:07):
So it's about us.
It's on us.
If we just Think less aboutourselves through this process.
So more, some people don't likethe term servant leadership, but
servant leadership is what comesto mind.
Humility.
Jason (32:20):
I had a supervisor years ago, um, used to walk, he would
walk up to people.
I, remember this just stood outso much and he would say, what
can I do for you?
And that's what he said that allthe time, and he meant it.
I was like, I've never, I'venever had a supervisor walk up
and say that, that's alwaysabout what can you do for me and
what do you need to be doingright now?
(32:41):
And this guy had that approach.
And I've always I don't know.
I've just always thought aboutthat and tried to have that same
approach with my, my team andsay, what, what can I do for
you?
Right?
What do you need for me?
How can I serve?
And it's, I know some leadersthat will say that.
How can I serve you?
And I think that that's sopowerful to say those words and
to, and to mean it.
Jeshua (32:59):
So a couple of things about that.
One, the fact that.
That memory of how that yoursupervisor treated you was so
impactful that not only do youremember it, but you model after
it.
It is, it's so counter-cultural,right.
It's so impactful.
But the second thing you said isto is to, is also to, to take
(33:19):
that but also to mean it.
And so to actually live thatout.
I think sometimes we get in thistrap of you have companies With
mission statements plastered allover, you've got Right.
They, they know, they, they'veread the books.
They know what they're supposedto do.
It's, it's, uh, you know, the,it's the mission that not is not
(33:40):
only in the walls, but livedthrough the halls.
As I I hear it's, is it actuallylived out?
And it has to be deep.
It has to transformative.
Jason (33:48):
I think that organizations should not plaster
that stuff everywhere.
And the reason that I say thatis it's if it's being lived out
truly, and we're all human, soit's never perfect, but if, if
the, if the top leadership teamis living it out day to day,
meeting by meeting decision bydecision, it doesn't, it doesn't
need to be plastered all overthe walls.
(34:10):
It just, yeah, it doesn't haveto.
And, and, and unfortunately toooften when it is, it's not being
lived out and it's all over thewalls, but it's not, it's not
being lived out.
So that drives cynicism,frankly, with people.
I think
Jeshua (34:23):
Yes.
Yes.
I, I agree.
It's, it's, it's very easy tolose trust of, of your team, the
people that you work.
It's, it's hard to gain an easyto lose.
Jason (34:33):
Exactly.
Destruction's always quickerthan, uh, creation in my
experience.
who are some people that youfollow authors.
Podcasters websites.
Like who do you, you, you saidyou read a lot, and that's, I
think, I think leaders, uh,should be readers, uh, for
another, like coin, anotherphrase there.
But, uh, who do you, who do youfollow?
Who do you read?
(34:53):
Who do you recommend?
Jeshua (34:55):
S uh, a a a lot and it's the breadth of kind of the areas
that, that I am really focusedon.
So from, from a leadershipstandpoint, um, I'm a huge fan
of, uh, of Craig Rochelle,particularly his, his leadership
Pat podcast, uh, John MaMaxwell.
Not only his podcast, but hisbooks.
Jason (35:15):
I love John Maxwell.
Yeah.
I came up on, he was the firstleadership author I ever read.
The 21 Year Refutable Laws ofLeadership.
Read that a long time ago.
Jeshua (35:23):
It is, it's in my, if I was in my office right now, it's
hanging up in my office.
That one particularly.
Yeah.
The, um, I, I mentioned a lot ofTimothy Keller, uh.
Yeah.
Although he's a, he's a pastor,a lot of his truths are directed
at leaders and he's, he doeshave some good leadership
content.
Um, another is, is John Gordon.
Um, John Gordon's got some goodleadership.
(35:45):
I love Stephen.
Uh, uh, Stephen Covey's, uh,seven Habits of Effective
People.
I, I, I read through that one.
I think a good one.
Um, you know, Jim Collins, goodto Great.
That's one that, uh, that again,those are these enduring
principles of truths that, that,that you get through them.
A couple of, uh, other authorsthat I read, and this is more in
(36:06):
the entrepreneurial space, uh,there, the, um, Dan Sullivan and
Benjamin Hardy have been readingthrough their books.
10 x is easier than two x and,uh, who not how.
Those are some that, that Iwould recommend.
Jason (36:20):
Yeah, no, I appreciate that.
And I'll, uh, link to those inthe, uh, In the podcast, and,
uh, so people can check thoseout.
Several of those I've read aswell that were super impactful.
John Maxwell, he gets mentioned,I'm gonna say 80% of the time
when I have people on this show.
And actually I had heard of
Jeshua (36:35):
He's the,
Jason (36:36):
he, he's like the guru, right?
I mean, he's the guru.
Yeah.
Jeshua (36:38):
Yes, that's right.
Yes.
Jason (36:41):
uh, Greg, is it Greg or Craig Gro.
Elle.
He, I heard about him from,yeah, from one of my, from one
of the people I interviewed andI've, I've listened to his, uh,
leadership podcast ever since.
It's very good.
Very good.
Yeah.
Jeshua (36:53):
Yeah.
I guess the other one that comesto mind along those lines, just
because his book was soinstrumental, um, it's Kerry
Newh.
He has a leadership podcast.
He's also a pastor.
He wrote a, a book called AtYour Best, that at a time in my
life when, um, the work, thelife balance was getting a
little bit out of hand.
(37:14):
It was those principles werereally life giving to me.
He's got great podcasts
Jason (37:18):
good.
Check that out.
Hey, what would you say tosomebody who's moving into a
leadership role for the firsttime?
Like maybe they come to you, afriend from church, and uh, you
know, they get their firstopportunity and they want some
advice from someone who's beendoing it for a while.
Je what advice would you give'em?
Jeshua (37:36):
Yeah, I, I think that it is the, the product of, um,
surrounding yourself with theright people, so not only
resources, I, I think that youcan learn an, an immense.
Amount of, of good principlesfrom, you know, any of the work
that you're familiar with thator that, that I just talked
about, about leadershipprinciples in either through
(37:59):
podcasts or books, but I thinkit's also, mentorship is
critical.
So finding some people, um, atleast one who's been there,
who's at least 20 years out,that's walked through those and
just clinging to them and, andin whatever time that they're,
they're willing to give you on aregular basis.
Uh, because we, we just, we needthose people who have walked
(38:21):
before ahead of us.
Jason (38:23):
I, uh, I can't, I can't agree more.
I think about a couple guys whohave helped me through my career
and one, one of'em is retiredand I still have called him on
occasion when I had a bigdecision to make or You know,
just get some advice from'em.
And what's interesting is howwilling, in my experience, that
these people are to help, tohelp, to get on a call, you
know, to spend some time withyou.
(38:44):
And, uh, yeah.
I think too often we, uh, weneglect that at our peril, so,
yeah.
Jeshua (38:51):
Oh, there's a lot there, Jason.
Yeah, I think so too.
I, it seems to me the peoplewho, in my experience, who've
had the most value to give, um,maybe I've been reluctant to
reach out because of their, oftheir status or because they
keep their right.
It's, but when I have reachedout, they have Made themselves
(39:12):
available to impart wisdom intome.
It is.
It's, it's interesting how thatworks.
Jason (39:16):
Who, uh, who else would you like to see come on this
podcast?
I.
Who do you know that's a aworkplace leader, you know,
who's been doing it for a whilewould have some words of wisdom?
Who do you think.
Jeshua (39:28):
Wow.
Yeah, there's a lot of differentcontexts there.
Um.
One.
Uh, so one, one organizationthat uh, I have just become
involved with over the last sixmonths is called Faith-Driven
Entrepreneurs, and it's a, it'sa fascinating Christ-centered
organization, uh, for, for.
(39:49):
For business owners,entrepreneurs, people are
entrepreneur and also investors,um, who might work with those
types of businesses.
And there's a couple of guys,even, even locally in Grand
Rapids who I'm starting, um,this, uh, west Michigan chapter
that might be great people totalk to.
So that, that's kind of morelocally.
But then there are, there areothers that offline I'd, I had,
(40:12):
um, that, that I could think ofthat I would definitely want to
Jason (40:15):
Good.
Jeshua (40:16):
your
Jason (40:16):
No, I would love to do that.
I'm always looking to, you know,find some people that can come
and really, this is just allabout Imparting wisdom and
helping each other grow asleaders, you know, and, uh, just
sharing ideas and maybe possiblynetworking and, uh, being able
to be more effective in our workand ultimately honoring the Lord
in that work and glorifying him.
So, yeah.
(40:37):
What's, uh, last question Ihave, I always ask everybody
when they come on, when you aredone with full-time work and you
got a white, you got a ways togo.
I don't think you're too closeto retirement, but.
Uh, you know, when the Lordmoves you out of full-time,
full-time work, what do you hopethat people will have remembered
about working with you?
Jeshua (40:56):
Yeah.
It goes back to my principle,my, oh, my, my focus is they
would look back and say, Jeshualoved God and he loved people,
and, and, and truly understoodthat, that that's who I was.
Jason (41:09):
Yeah.
Well, it's simple, but it's, uh,I love it.
Love God and love others.
Right?
That's, uh, that's what Jesussaid.
It all boiled down to.
was those two commandments.
So, hey, what's the best way forpeople to get ahold of you?
Je uh, if they wanna reach out.
And I, and I can link that inthe show notes too, but, uh,
what's the easiest way?
Jeshua (41:27):
Um, a couple of ways come to mind.
I mean, my email, email's thebest way to communicate my first
name, Jeshua dw law pc.com.
I don't really have otherprivate emails.
That's just what I use.
And, uh, the, the best way toconnect with me, I'm very active
on LinkedIn and so connectingwith me on LinkedIn, I found it
to be a great way to engage, um,with content that's good content
(41:51):
to learn, but also to connect inmeaningful ways like we are
here, Jason.
Jason (41:56):
Yeah.
No, I appreciate, I likedfollowing you on LinkedIn.
You are very active on there andI think have some, uh, some
great posts.
So I, that's how I found you.
So It is been good.
So we'll link to that on theshow notes.
Um, yeah, other than that man, Iappreciate your time.
It's been great hearing aboutyour testimony and this is the
first time I've had someone onhere who works in your industry
(42:16):
and field, so that's alwaysgood.
I like to have a broad range of,uh, people down to interview.
So thank you for your time, man.
I know you got a family and, uh,giving me an hour of your time,
uh, that means a lot, so Iappreciate it brother.
Jeshua (42:28):
Yeah, very, very glad to.
And, um, like I said, uh, it'salways good to connect
particularly with, uh, with, uh,people who are looking to follow
after Jesus and how to live itout in everything that we do.
So Jason, really good toconnect.
Jason (42:44):
brother..
And thank you for joining meagain this month as we meet
another leader striving to honorChrist in their work.
Please check out our new YouTubechannel where you can watch the
interviews and comment on thecontent.
I look forward to hearing backfrom you and being back again
next month.?
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