May 1, 2024 • 57 mins
David Lively and his wife has over 20 years of experience starting, growing, and selling businesses. Listen in as he describes how they has striven to glorify Christ in all of their business endeavors. You will hear many fascinating stories, lessons learned, and much glorifying of Christ in this interview!
Davids website
Davids LinkedIn
Amys (Davids wife) LinkedIn
Books mentioned on the show -
Monday Morning Atheist
Every Good Endeavor
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Yeti Nano & Logitech BR (00:00):
Welcome to the biblical leadership at
(00:01):
work podcast.
I'm your host, Jason Woodard.
In this month's episode, we willmeet David lively.
David has over two decades ofexperience as a successful
entrepreneur, having had theopportunity to start grow and
then sell.
To businesses.
His experience is in the retailfurniture industry and in the
software industry.
(00:22):
Now he is working as a businessconsultant, helping other
business leaders implement thebiblical principles David and
his wife have used tosuccessfully own and lead their
own two organizations.
In today's show, you will hear alot of great wisdom, including
how we can leave organizations.
David (00:40):
this company was small enough, it didn't have enough
space for two young guys whowere,
Jason (2) (00:45):
Up
David (00:45):
know, full of energy and dreams and goals and focus.
And so I went to his dad andsaid, Hey, you know, the
writing's kind of on the wall.
I love you.
I love your son.
I want nothing but goodness tohappen here.
And he said, I'll make a callfor you.
And, I.
Started a job in just a coupleof weeks at a larger company, in
(01:08):
a management role,
Yeti Nano & Logitech BRIO (01:10):
You will also hear how God has led
David and his wife through manytwists and turns, but has always
remained faithful.
David (01:17):
Thank you Lord.
I can't believe the twists andturns that my life has gone
through and looking back, seeingyou every step of the way.
at 58 years old, it's quite.
an overwhelming and amazing lookback.
You know, it, it, it makes melove him more.
Yeti Nano & Logitech BRIO (01:39):
And you will hear many examples of
how David views work as aministry and a calling.
David (01:45):
The work of ministry is to love, Christ's.
sons and daughters well to lovecreation.
Well and so, I wrapped my headaround that pretty deeply.
And, we operated our company,really every day for the last 20
years with the idea, the conceptthat our work is extremely
(02:07):
important.
That every opportunity we haveto talk to a customer, to talk
to a coworker, to talk to asupplier or a vendor or a
partner.
Those were all opportunities torepresent Christ in the work of
ministry.
Jason (2) (02:26):
Okay.
Well, David Lively, thank you somuch for taking time outta your,
busy schedule brother, andjumping on the podcast with me
to let people get to know you.
David (02:35):
Awesome.
I'm looking forward to it,Jason.
it's exciting to catch up andtalk about these important
things.
Jason (2) (02:41):
So let's start off, let's talk about your
background.
I know you've got quite a, a, along career and, we've talked a
little bit about that.
But take us back to your careerbeginnings, you know, education
professional, did you start andup to now, where you, where are
you, where's God Got you now.
David (02:59):
you know, I always think my long career, makes me an old
man.
I feel it every day.
You know, physically, thingshurt that never hurt.
it's been 35 years in business.
And, prior to that, I startedout with a failed, college
career.
I was on the six year programand still didn't finish.
(03:19):
during that time, I, took a job,that, I had no earthly idea
would turn out to be a huge partof my life's work, in business.
I always laugh at myself saying,I'll bet you when you are a
little boy, or most little boysI ever met, never said, when I
grow up, I want to sell sofas topeople.
(03:40):
But I ended up in, I ended up inthe furniture business and, that
started back in the, in the, midnineties.
and that was back in the daywhen, our banks were absolutely
crazy and they lended 167% loanto value on my wife and I's
first home.
And we went out and opened alittle, retail store and, that
(04:04):
began the ride.
And, we worked hard and keptgrowing and carefully investing
and it turned out to be 40locations, across nine states,
and ultimately ended up with1100 employees.
became a big company and, we, wewere fortunate enough, to sell
that business, in the, uh, earlytwo thousands.
(04:27):
that sale was very much relatedto family, because we had a
young daughter at the time.
She was, four and a half comingup on five years old.
And my life at the time was,Sunday night or Monday morning
airplanes and arriving home lateFriday night or Saturday morning
(04:48):
from a week's worth of trips.
And it wasn't how my wife and Iwanted to do life.
And while we were fortunate,financially, and it felt good,
for, you know, pride and ego forme personally, it just wasn't
our life goals.
And so we, we took a pause for acouple of years.
(05:08):
I ended up going back to school,got a bachelor's degree in
practical ministry, from.
Southern Ohio School of Ministryand, we started a little
software company and, have spentthe last 17 years, building that
software company and, and soldit just a year ago as well.
(05:30):
And so I think I'm down to thefinal frontier here.
I am back at the very beginningas a startup and, I've opened, a
Christian coaching business and,have been fortunate enough to
take a first client and I'mworking hard with them, to use
kingdom principles in themarketplace.
(05:52):
And so it's fun and it'sexciting and it's my passion and
so kind of my work history.
Jason (2) (05:58):
me back to how did you get into furniture retail?
Was it just, Hey, I need a joband hiring?
David (06:06):
yes, yes.
It start, it started in thewarehouse.
my job was to unload freighttrucks that came in.
And, I enjoyed the work.
I enjoyed the people around.
and, the owner of that company,I'm putting words in his mouth,
but he just recognized, youknow, Hey, this is a nice young
man.
He's a hard worker.
(06:27):
he could probably do more thanjust unload boxes.
And so I got, promoted to a 100%commissioned sales job and
excelled at that.
I did quite well.
And, and really, I.
When my wife and I got married,that was my job.
And, uh, it, it provided nicelyfor our family for the first few
(06:51):
years.
and then that job led to thenext promotion into a low level
management job.
and that low level managementjob led to the next management
job.
And then, interestingly enough,kind of part of that story is
the company was quite small and,my wife and I had recently been
(07:12):
married and, The owner's son wasin our wedding.
And, uh, so he came home from,Colorado, where he was living at
the time to be in our wedding,and he picked us up from our
honeymoon and said, Hey, I'mreal excited.
I'm coming back to work at thefamily business.
And, and my heart dropped,because I, I love my friend very
(07:36):
much, but this company was smallenough, it didn't have enough
space for two young guys whowere,
Jason (2) (07:43):
Up
David (07:43):
know, full of energy and dreams and goals and focus.
And so I went to his dad andsaid, Hey, you know, the
writing's kind of on the, thewall.
I love you.
I love your son.
I want nothing but goodness tohappen here.
And he said, I'll make a callfor you.
And, um, I, Started a job injust a couple of weeks at a
(08:04):
larger company, in a managementrole, and did that for a while.
a couple,
Jason (2) (08:09):
furniture.
Furniture, retail as well.
David (08:13):
it was, And, and during those couple of years there, I,
I saw an opportunity and,borrowed all that money and got
started on our own.
Jason (2) (08:23):
out on your own.
David (08:24):
You know, another interesting part that just
popped in my mind about thatgoing out on my own, our dreams
and goals don't always alignwith our flow.
Jason (2) (08:36):
That's true.
David (08:37):
And, we were operating a very nice little business, but
we, didn't plan well enough forthe runway.
How long is it gonna take forthis little business to produce
enough revenue to pay for ourfamily's bills?
fortunately we had.
just loving parents who helpedus through those early times and
(08:57):
kept us going.
And once we got over the hump,then, God blessed us and the
company started to really grow.
The other fascinating thingabout that first little store is
our daughter, she's 27 now, butshe was born on November the
fourth, and our very first storeopened on November the 22nd.
(09:19):
And that's advice I would nevergive anyone.
Don't have a kid and open yourfirst business a few weeks
later, because, th those twothings don't align well.
Jason (2) (09:31):
Well, I will share with you that my oldest son,
our, our oldest son and his wifeare business owners.
And I think they've been inbusiness now about a little over
two years and a year into thatthey had their first child And
have, you know, remodeling theirhouse.
And I think some of the stuffthat I did when we were young
(09:52):
and I'm like, oh no, this is somuch, and yeah, I can get really
overwhelming, but the Lordprovides, I think he grows us
through those, he growsstressful and challenging times.
David (10:02):
No question.
Jason (2) (10:03):
and say, I don't know if I'd do it just like that
again.
But,
David (10:05):
Yep.
Jason (2) (10:06):
and uses that, uses that stuff to grow us.
I think,
David (10:10):
Yes.
Agreed.
Yep.
Jason (2) (10:13):
so you've had two businesses you've sold, which I
think is amazing.
I lo I never get tired ofhearing how God took someone
young in their life when theywere trying to figure stuff out.
Am I supposed to go to college?
Certainly you probably feltlike, man, I went to college.
That didn't work out.
there had to when you felt alittle bit of being a little
lost or despair, but God had aplan for you obviously has
(10:35):
blessed you and your leading youthrough this career path.
And I, one of the things I, Ialways want people to get out of
this podcast is that hindsight,right?
Because I would assume there'slisteners that are maybe years,
30 years younger than you or Igoing through now and feeling
that.
And so it's always encouragingto hear how, as a faithful
(10:56):
believer, if you're, know,focused on walking with the
Lord.
That there'll be ups and downsand twists and turns, and he'll
bring things to you that you arenot aware of.
But, there's many, manyblessings that come, you know,
when we stay steadfast with him.
David (11:10):
as believers, you know, we read scripture, and, my
experience has been oftentimeswe read that scripture and
understand it intellectually,oh, I know what these words
mean.
but moving those words from ourheads to our hearts, that's what
changes everything.
and the reality is, God has madepromises to his sons and
(11:35):
daughters, and God doesn't breakthose promises to his sons and
daughters.
He is faithful.
He, provides immeasurable graceand love.
And so, I wasn't able toverbalize this as a young man,
but the reality of the look backnow is, I was focused first on
(11:57):
the kingdom of God as it'swritten in Matthew
Jason (2) (12:00):
That's right.
David (12:01):
and all else was added to me.
Jason (2) (12:04):
That's
David (12:04):
it never, it never minute by minute felt that way through
some of the challenges.
but when you are able to lookback over a life lived, you go,
wow.
that's just one more example ofGod caring for me in a way that,
that is better than I everexpected, better than I could
(12:25):
have ever dreamed.
and I just didn't maybeacknowledge that at the time.
Jason (2) (12:32):
Exactly.
David (12:33):
today I praise that, like, thank you Lord.
Thank you Lord.
I can't believe the twists andturns that my life has gone
through and looking back, seeingyou every step of the way.
at 58 years old, it's quite.
an overwhelming and amazing lookback.
(12:56):
You know, it, it, it makes melove him more.
Jason (2) (12:59):
Your faith grows stronger.
David (13:01):
Mm-Hmm.
Jason (2) (13:02):
just know, you know, you just know he's proven
himself over and over and over.
think about it, I had a pastorone time who used to use an
example of, a needle point onthe front right, is this image
and these words, but on theback, on the back it's a hot,
chaotic mess.
And you look at the back andyou're like,
David (13:22):
Yep.
Jason (2) (13:23):
And sometimes, and so his, his point was that
sometimes alls we see is theback of that needle point and we
look at our and go.
So this is crazy.
This is a mess.
But you know, God's gotsomething he's mapping out for
us, which is yeah,
David (13:35):
That's such a wonderful, wonderful example, picture that
you just put in my head, that Ihad never heard before.
Wow.
That, that is absolutely thecase.
Jason (2) (13:45):
appreciated his share in that true.
David, talk about faith.
tell us about your faith.
did you grow up in the church?
Did you come to know the Lordlater?
What's that look like?
David (13:54):
I did, I, was, fortunate to grow up in a, Christian
family.
I went through, A denominationalconfirmation.
the term that lots of peopleknow would be catechism, a sixth
through eighth grade, two yearperiod of time.
It's kind of a young man comingof age, or young woman coming of
age.
(14:14):
the study of, okay, how's theBible structured?
what is the story of the Bible?
why do we believe what webelieve?
What are the big foundationalbuilding blocks of the faith?
And that time, I was all in.
I left those two years going,wow, this is the, this is the
greatest story I've heard in mylife.
(14:36):
I'm all in, I am full on,believing I, I get this.
but I will say, you know, lifehappens and, those beliefs
didn't always, as a young manline up with the actions and
activities of my life.
you know, I would describemyself as a wayward believer for
(14:59):
many, many numbers of years.
and ultimately for me, Jason, itwas, and I actually find it true
often today.
I feel I.
Like an outsider, the structureof the church, the conversation
in the, you know, as you'rewalking into the sanctuary, how
are you today?
(15:20):
Fine.
How are you?
Fine.
How are you?
Fine.
And I am sitting there on theinside going, wow, all these
people are fine.
And I'm not,
Jason (2) (15:30):
and,
David (15:30):
and, and, and and I, I literally just go, wow.
I, it makes me uncomfortablebecause I'm not fine.
I'm actually dependent and needyand, desirous of the personal
relationship with Christ and.
Life isn't always fine for me.
(15:51):
so as a young man, I wasn't ableto process that real well.
what it made me feel like is,oh, I'm not welcome here because
I'm so messed up and all ofthese people are fine.
Well, I don't want to go to aplace where I am messed up.
(16:11):
And so, you know, I will say Iwalked away from the formal
relationship with, you know,what we call the church today.
Jason (2) (16:20):
Yep.
David (16:21):
but I, I never, ever, had a moment of doubt, like, oh, I
don't believe what I was taught.
I don't believe what I believe.
That never happened to me.
and then, you know, as I maturedand got to, you know, my feet
under me a little bit as a, as aman, I started to figure out.
(16:41):
These folks aren't necessarilyfine.
and I hesitate to say thatbecause I'm not, I certainly am
not judging when I say that.
I just know from experience now,from doing life with other men,
with husbands and wivestogether, we're all dealing with
the challenges of earth,
Jason (2) (17:03):
It's sin and earth and
David (17:05):
the, the fall.
Jason (2) (17:06):
Yes.
Yeah.
David (17:07):
And, and, if we jumped all the way back to Genesis, you
and I should be able to walknaked before God.
Jason (2) (17:16):
Right?
David (17:16):
that was the story, that what was going on.
and we don't need fig leavesbecause we are purely who we are
and we're honest with ourselvesand with him and with our
situations and, you know, we allknow that's not how life works.
And, um, post fall, we sin hasentered and life's different.
Jason (2) (17:39):
I recently had a chance to, I occasionally will
fill the pulpit.
And one of the things that I waschallenging our congregation and
myself with was growing inholiness and what are those
things that we ought to bedoing?
one of the phrases that I usedwas to be living in vulnerable
community with our church body.
I think that word is importantcritical, that vulnerable piece,
(18:01):
because what you said about, themeat and greet and the, and the
narthex.
I haven't, I haven't heard thatword used in a long time.
But Yeah.
And you know, everyone,everything's fine.
Even though.
the way to church, you just hada knock down drag out in the car
with your right?
And it's, yeah, yeah, yeah,yeah.
So I think, you know, as I lookback at, as I grew into church
(18:23):
leadership roles, that was thefirst time for me that I
realized not everybody's fine.
I mean, I started to see some ofthe, the mess in people's lives.
And again, not judging becausewe had'em in
David (18:36):
Yep.
Jason (2) (18:36):
And I, I just want always to encourage other
believers to be willing to livein that vulnerable state with at
least people in your church bodyto let them know, I meet fairly
regularly with some of the menin our church over coffee,
one-to-one.
I love doing that.
I like that, type ofrelationship building.
(18:57):
I always wanna be able to haveopen conversations with them and
let them know that it's okay.
You know, that struggle, notthat I would say it's okay.
Like, don't fight it.
Yeah.
We need to wrestle and fight andstill grow in our holiness, but
don't think that you're the onlyone, because what you talked
about feeling alienated or I'mthe only one who's dealing with
some kind of an issue will drivepeople away.
(19:19):
And, uh, that's, you know, wedon't, we want them to, to come
and be open and say, I needhelp.
You know, who can come and helpme in this?
And that's part of why, it'spart of why I do this podcast.
'cause I want to talk to about,we'll talk a little bit about
what struggles have you faced,what have you learned?
And guess what?
Learning is usually a process offailing and making mistakes, you
know,
David (19:39):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And getting comfortable withthose failures and mistakes,
Jason (2) (19:43):
Exactly.
David (19:44):
I'm, I'm Okay.
Yes.
I, I mess this up.
I'm responsible and that's okay.
and has to get worked out personby person.
Jason (2) (19:54):
it does.
So, question for you then, youthink back through, you've owned
businesses, you've led peoplefor several decades.
David, is there something thatyou've come to a point where
when you think about biblicaleffective leadership in the
workplace, like what does thatboil down for you?
How would you summarize the, thekey important points or, you
(20:15):
know, kind of what's your,what's your go-to motto or the
way you think about effectivebiblical leadership at work?
David (20:21):
Yeah.
so I, I met a teacher, fromChillicothe, Ohio.
It's a small town in, southernOhio.
And, he was an instructorduring, my time in bible
college.
And he was, working on a processat the time and writing a book
and trying to form up histhinking around these things.
(20:44):
And when he shared it with me,for me it was like a light bulb
moment.
and ultimately.
he ended up calling italignment.
and alignment is an easydescription of a harder set of
terms, kingdom sequence.
it's just four easy steps interms of the words.
(21:07):
They're very hard to actually,live out.
but I have built companies basedon this, I've taught it to,
every person that has everworked for me, in the last 19
years.
and so alignment is authority,order, function.
(21:28):
And in the kingdom of God, thefinal step would be blessing.
That's what, as believers we'retrying to, act in a way or do
things in a way that createblessing in the for profit
marketplace, the goal is profit.
So authority, order, function,profit is the marketplace
(21:52):
sequence of alignment.
and then, you know, to talkabout it just a little bit.
So once something is placedunder authority, or authority
has been established, you know,like, okay, who is responsible
for this action or activitywithin an organization?
(22:12):
They become the authority.
Then that authority can begin toplace things in order.
So, you know, we're gonna dothis and we're gonna do that.
this is the outcome.
And, once things are ordered forpeople, they can begin to go to
work on it.
And when groups of people beginto go to work on things that are
(22:36):
properly placed in order, theyfunction.
and when the sequence comestogether, it produces profit, in
life.
you know, we place ourselvesunder the authority of Jesus.
and, interestingly enough, Jesusunderstood this real well.
so if you move this intoscripture and think about it.
(22:58):
So when Jesus approached John atthe river for baptism.
He understood Christ, understoodthat John was the authority who
needed to baptize him.
John said, John said, no, no,no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,
no, no, no, nope.
You are the lamb.
I, I, I don't, don't make me dothis.
(23:20):
and Christ understood that ithad to happen that way because
John was the earthly authorityto baptize, mankind.
so then that process kind ofplays out through that baptism.
So Jesus placed himself underJohn's authority.
And when Jesus came out of thewater, God audibly spoke and
(23:43):
said, this is my son and I ampleased.
God placed things in order bypointing out, Jesus is my son,
and I am well pleased.
and then Jesus started tofunction in his ministry.
he goes out into the desert, hebegins to do battle with Satan.
(24:03):
he shows us how things are towork, and then comes back.
I am sure totally wiped out bythe way.
you know, like, whew, that was arough 40 days.
But he begins then the activityof his ministry obviously the
final part of that story is, andthe blessing of mankind happened
(24:27):
as a result of Jesusunderstanding how the sequence
worked.
And so, you know, it worksterrific as a framework in
business.
I.
It also is then proven inscripture.
and it's so easy to teach peoplebecause, think about this.
in an automobile, cars, up untilrecently ran on gasoline.
(24:49):
So the way to make a combustionengine work was to put gas in
it.
And without gas, the car won'trun.
It doesn't mean that the car isbroken.
It doesn't mean there'ssomething wrong with the car.
It doesn't mean anything otherthan, oh, this car is now out of
(25:09):
order
Jason (2) (25:09):
Right.
David (25:10):
because the authority of a combustion engine is you have
to put gas in it.
As soon as you do put gas intoan auto and turn the key, it
begins to function and theresult is it takes you down the
road.
So, you know, this is not areally complicated framework.
(25:31):
It's actually a very simpleframework.
and it's worked really well inmy life, over the last, coming
up on 20 years now.
Jason (2) (25:40):
One of the things I always go back to when I think
of leadership, and as you'retalking, I'm bouncing this model
off of that one, and I thinkthere's a lot of parallel is
that I always say that you, youhave to give clear and realistic
expectations to people andthose, those are important
words, clear and realistic, andthen you have to hold people
consistently accountable.
David (26:01):
Yes.
Jason (2) (26:02):
that fits in with what you're saying.
I understand.
I understand what you're saying.
Once you have, have clearownership, you've given them the
tools they need
David (26:11):
Mm-Hmm.
Jason (2) (26:12):
them in that process, and then they, they execute and
you just kinda repeat theprocess.
the one question I did pop up inmy mind is the outcome should be
in the business world You havethis process, you execute and it
should generate a profit.
There's times, I'm guessing,when we execute it well and the
profit doesn't come, but atleast now we've said, well,
(26:35):
okay, we know that we've had aprocess that we've operated in.
Maybe our strategy's wrong andwe need to tweak that a little
bit.
But at least you've controlledthe, the chaos, and you have to
control that chaos and have thatdefined process to follow.
David (26:50):
Well, yes.
And the framework then gives youa place to go back and look.
Jason (2) (26:55):
Exactly,
David (26:56):
the, that's the key.
Like when, when, when the resultis not producing the outcome
that you want, well, do you havea problem at the authority
level?
and the word strategy is mostoften at the highest levels of
authority.
Oh, I'm, I'm responsible tocreate the strategy that I then
(27:19):
share with my staff.
Well, I better look right hereand go, gosh, I've created the
wrong strategy.
but it gives you this frameworkto look and go.
Well, I think the strategy soundare we operating this thing
correctly?
Is it placed in order?
You know, we do step one, thenstep two, step three, or are we
(27:41):
doing step seven before we dostep one and now it's out of
order?
Is that the cause of theproblem?
Jason (2) (27:48):
I
David (27:48):
or did I as the authority not, teach well the way this
thing is supposed to work?
And am I the one that's causingthat problem?
and then the function part ofit, you know, that has to do
with, you know, all kinds ofdifferent things.
you know, my mind right now justwent to the financial metrics,
(28:10):
like, oh, well my costs are toohigh, or my expenses are too
high, or my, sales price is toolow.
And, you know, those are all thefunctional things that have to
get sorted out.
And then you're back down to,okay, if we make these tweaks,
can we produce a profit?
so again, I find it to be aframework that you can easily
(28:35):
implement and you can easilylook back for the weaknesses in
the implementation and fix them.
Jason (2) (28:43):
write the book?
Is there a book, if someone wasinterested in that framework,
that they could go read?
David (28:48):
yes, he did write the book.
The book is titled Alignmentand, his name is Mark Pifer.
I haven't looked for a longnumber of years.
my copy is tattered and torn andwritten all over.
I would guess that you can findthe book at Amazon, but I really
am not sure.
Jason (2) (29:07):
That's interesting.
I'm gonna link to it.
David (29:09):
And I'll gladly call him if you don't find it and say,
Hey, where can, where can somepeople get your book?
Jason (2) (29:15):
that would be good because we'll link to it in the
show notes too, if I get a linkon Amazon or wherever they can
buy It, the other thing it mademe think about, so I, as I
shared before we hit record,I've spent my whole career in
manufacturing and one of thegurus in manufacturing was the
Toyota production system in leanmanufacturing.
And,
David (29:33):
W Edward Demming.
Jason (2) (29:35):
Yeah.
And Tao,
David (29:36):
Yep.
Jason (2) (29:37):
said, there's a quote that he said that I love, and
I've thought about this many,many times, but he said, without
a standard there can be noimprovement.
it sounds so simple, but I don'tknow how many times I've seen
leaders, people trying to figureout how to make improvements.
And you go back and you say,you're not following any process
or standard,
David (29:56):
Yep.
Jason (2) (29:57):
in complete chaos.
And so until there's a process,you'll never make an improvement
because you might as well berolling the dice every time you
execute.
And so like your framework thatyou talked about, if you're
executing that, yeah, maybe notperfectly, but relatively
consistently, at least.
Then have a standard you'refollowing and then you can go
work on improvement.
But until you have that,there's, there'll never be an
(30:19):
improvement.
It's just luck of the draw.
So,
David (30:21):
that made me think of another book.
you know, that managementstructure in Japan came from the
United States, and after the Warw Edward Deming was sent over
there, his book
Jason (2) (30:34):
Outta the
David (30:35):
of Crisis.
Jason (2) (30:35):
I have
David (30:36):
And that, that, that book is hard and dry and tough to
read.
But man, if you can get throughthat thing, it is filled with
nuggets on.
how to make things work.
Jason (2) (30:50):
yes.
of wisdom.
A lot of wisdom in that book.
So I definitely would agree.
get a cup of coffee and read
David (30:58):
Yep.
Jason (2) (30:58):
out of the crisis.
So a little bit of a pivot,David, in the, conversation.
What are your spiritualdisciplines?
You're a man of faith.
You've been walking with theLord sounds like all of your
adult life.
Tell us a little bit about whatare the things you do daily,
weekly to.
To stay strong in your faith andto to grow in your
sanctification.
David (31:17):
without a doubt, prayer is, the most important for me in
my spiritual disciplines.
and, I actively, I.
Do that throughout my day.
I kind of formalize that alittle bit in the morning.
Good morning, Lord.
I, I am, I am glad to be awakeand I'm glad that you're here
(31:39):
with me and let's talk aboutthis day.
And that one's a little bit moreformal, but the reality is, I
think the most importantspiritual discipline that I have
is relational.
And that is, there are rarely,and I want to preface this by
saying I'm not, I'm not aterribly spiritual guy.
(32:01):
Like I don't come across thatway, but moment by moment, by
moment by moment, I'm veryrelational with Jesus.
And I find myself almost like aclose friend, best friend,
conversational relationship withChrist.
Like, Hey, what do, what do youthink about this?
have no earthly idea how tohandle this phone call that I'm
(32:26):
getting ready to have.
What would you do?
and so that's been a veryimportant part of my adult life,
is a familiar, best friend,close friend relationship with a
real dependency on Christ.
the other thi you know, I'm apretty avid reader.
I read scripture daily.
(32:46):
I also am Mostly interested inthe topic of our faith walk.
And so, you know, my bookshelfis filled with, one Christian
leadership book after the other,after the other, or even, you
know, the tried and true,Bonhoeffer, you know, how, how
(33:07):
did he process life's mostdifficult things?
you know, it's not necessarily aleadership book, but it's
Christian living.
Jason (2) (33:15):
it is.
David (33:16):
Um, and, you know, sometimes, people might get
bored with that topic.
for me, it just doesn't happen.
Um.
Jason (2) (33:23):
for someone like I think about Bonhoeffer and went
through.
You know, you talked earlierabout sometimes we read
scripture and we, we acknowledgeit with our head, but it takes
living life and just strugglingthrough it, you know, to get it
deeper and deeper into our heartsometimes.
And I know, you know, the booksthat I've read, I'm trying to
think what was his, the bookthat I read that, I can't
(33:45):
remember the title of it now.
I think it was his most popularbook, and I'm drawing a blank on
the title, but it was, was justprofound that he was, what he
was going through and, you know,as the, the Nazis were coming
into more and more power and.
His decision to, he was in theUS and to go back to Germany,
and those are really not blackand white decisions that he had
(34:08):
to face and pray through and,decide on, you know, how, how he
would face that.
So, yeah, I love biographiesbecause you learn so much from
people who have walked
David (34:18):
Yeah.
How, how did they, man, how didthey manage the same or even
more difficult challenges thanthe one I'm dealing with right
this minute?
Jason (2) (34:26):
yeah.
What are some, while we'retalking about books, what are
some other authors that youreally have enjoyed and learning
from or, that you'd
David (34:34):
well, the, you know, the, the first one's very personal
and, um, unfortunately he haspassed away.
but, the author's name is JayKeith Miller.
And, Keith's first book was ATaste of New Wine.
Christian organizations, it'smade the list as the most
influential books of the 20thcentury, in the faith, a Taste
(34:59):
of New Wine.
And he wrote that book in 1963.
he went on to write, 25 morebooks.
And, I was fortunate enough tomeet him at a moment in my life
where, I was in trouble.
my heart and head weren't in theright spot, and it was a low
moment, and I was havingdifficulty with, my wife Amy.
(35:21):
And, you know, we've beenmarried 33 years.
It's the low point in ourmarriage.
I was at a conference in Texasand I was walking across this
dirt parking lot, this old mansitting on a rock, and he speaks
up and he says, Hey.
Are you doing okay?
And lo and behold, we, we spentthe next 10 years of life
(35:41):
together, him mentoring me.
And so Keith's books are themost meaningful books to me.
Uh, yeah.
And they're, you know, they'rewidely available.
And, fascinatingly enough, youknow, a book on Christian Living
written in 1963 is still, forme, the most seminal book
(36:03):
written on how do you live anauthentic Christian life.
the book still sells widely,today.
Jason (2) (36:10):
heard of it.
I'll link, in the show notes so,so people can find it.
David (36:13):
And I also read, Andy Stanley and, um, very actively
listen to podcasts and, sermonseries from him, Tim Keller.
you know, who we, who we lost,lost this year?
Jason (2) (36:26):
I kind of Tim Keller like in the last year, and I
don't, I mean, found him likefinally read.
I read the book.
ministries of Mercy was thefirst book I read of his, and it
was very impactful.
And so now I, yeah, I'vesubscribed to his podcast and
read some other of his works andlove to hear and read and yeah.
Listen, learn from him.
David (36:48):
yeah.
And you know, he has some, somegreat two or three great books
out about the marketplace.
one of the great things abouthim as.
Just a phenomenal teacher ofChristian living and, and how
the kingdom of God works.
But he also valued themarketplace and, wrote and wrote
(37:09):
about it pretty extensively.
Jason (2) (37:10):
good endeavor?
Was that the,
David (37:12):
That's that, that's the first one that popped in my
mind, so, yes.
Jason (2) (37:16):
talk to people who are right now kind of leading
voices in the faith and workmovement.
Most of them.
Many of them point back to thatbeing an influential book.
So I think think he really, Godused him to start maybe that
movement in some ways.
I think so.
David (37:36):
Yeah.
And there's another great bookthat comes to mind from Doug
Spota.
it's called The Monday MorningAtheist.
it's kind of a, you know,clearly a, a title that gets
your attention.
Uh.
but you know, the book is about,how we live our lives on Sunday
as believers, and then we showup on Monday, and it's sometimes
(38:00):
hard for the world to see thedifference.
And, you know, one of myfavorite parts about that book
is, he calls it the SundayScaries.
it really hits home for me.
And that is, you know, we, wefinish off a work week.
Saturday is a family day, soccerfields and baseball fields and
cheerleading camps.
(38:21):
And Sunday we go to church andwe come home as a family and
we're relaxed.
But sometime on Sunday afternoonor Sunday evening, our minds
start to shift into.
Oh crap.
I've got this and this and thisand this and this that I have to
(38:42):
get done tomorrow.
And he, came up with thisphrase, Sunday scaries.
that's the reality of whathappens to us as believers.
Oh gosh, I gotta go back to worktomorrow.
And, this goodness that I feelfrom my Sunday morning worship
is now gone
Jason (2) (39:01):
Yep.
David (39:01):
and,
Jason (2) (39:02):
sets in and
David (39:03):
yep.
Jason (2) (39:04):
been through I have been through that.
Yeah.
I will link to that one.
Those are great examples.
Thank you for sharing those.
David (39:11):
my pleasure.
Jason (2) (39:12):
another question.
Go back in time and think aboutwhen you were a young leader and
starting off, we all mademistakes, we still do, but I
want to, I want you to talk alittle bit about something you
really struggled with as a youngleader you know, have you
overcome it, what do you do tomanage it?
If not, how did you overcome it?
Kind of talk about, what, what,what that thing was that you
(39:33):
really battled as a youngleader.
David (39:35):
Yeah, this, this is a hard one for me.
and, and it's fascinating,Jason, because, as I, I think
about it, it's actually startingreverse as I age and I'll, talk
about it a little bit.
So as a, as a young leader, andas a young man, not, not just in
a leadership role, but you know,the big sins, ego and pride
(40:00):
were.
big challenges for me.
you know, like, I got this, Ican handle this.
I have way more energy than thatold guy over there trying to
solve this thing.
And, you know, I think it's truein every generation.
Technology keeps changing andchanging and changing.
Well, you know, as a young man,starting out in the early
(40:22):
nineties, I understood thetechnology of the time better
than some of the people that Iwas working around.
And I, I find that that samething happens.
And so ultimately what that camedown to was a devaluing of
wisdom.
(40:43):
Like, I don't need to followsomebody who's already walked 20
miles in these moccasins.
I know better.
that's really the underpinningof what all of that stuff was as
a young leader.
I think we are living in a timeright now culturally, where,
wisdom is devalued in not justleadership roles, but in every
(41:08):
role.
we live in a time where if Ineed to know something, all I
have to do is pick up my phone.
yeah.
Hey, hey Google, what's theanswer to, you know, whatever.
that returns knowledge, but itdoesn't return any wisdom.
our software business that, wewrapped up and sold at the end
of last year, we were alreadybeginning to work on all the
(41:31):
concepts of what is happening inai.
And I look at that, not withfear, but I do at it through the
lens of, gosh, I already thinkwisdom has been devalued.
This is one step further thanthat.
like, yeah, you know, we, we,copilot or chat GPT for a, an
(41:55):
answer to any question, and itwrites it in large language and
that document comes off of aprinter is truth.
and so, you know, for me camethrough as ego and pride
problems.
as a 58-year-old old man at thispoint, the reality is I just
(42:17):
didn't value wisdom wise people,the people who have gone before
me, the people who have walkedthese paths.
you know, with a type Apersonality, you just run
through all of that and, youknow, uh, Yeah, I mean, being an
entrepreneur, my whole life,I've had to solve those things.
(42:37):
So, you know, it's just kickdown doors and, break down walls
and keep pushing.
they didn't always serve mewell.
Jason (2) (42:45):
I think of a saying, I heard somebody said this
several years ago, and I waslike, oh, that's so true.
But he said, the older I get,the smarter my dad becomes.
David (42:54):
Absolutely.
Jason (2) (42:55):
And I was like, yeah, I can remember.
You know, that's that,especially that son, father
relationship of like, you're 25,whatever you're like, dad, you
don't know.
I got this all figured out.
And know, as you, the get, yourealize there's a lot of wisdom
there.
And you think about people thathave passed, maybe even in your
family or those you've workedwith that you wished you could
(43:18):
have went back and, you know,sought some more wisdom from
and, um, you know, and hadopportunities.
There's, I think aboutconversations that I did have
with some older, men earlier inmy career that were.
Very, very helpful cause Istruggled with the same thing,
you know, it's just, why would Iask?
I got this figured out.
I have all the answers and nowyou see as in at our age, you'll
(43:40):
look and see some younger mengoing through that same thing
and you're like, I'm here tohelp if you need it, but I
can't, I can't force you to ask.
You gotta fall bit, you know,and on their face sometimes,
unfortunately.
But.
David (43:51):
I'm in that transition right now from business owner to
startup and the startup is tohelp others along the way.
so I don't operate in this everyday.
but these challenges with youngpeople, play out.
Bad emotions coming out of me.
(44:13):
You know, I end up saying, whydon't you just listen to me?
Don't you understand I'vealready done this?
don't make the same mistake.
and that doesn't serve themwell, and it doesn't serve me
well, and it doesn't serve thekingdom well.
But, you know, it's the, thefallen nature of mankind.
It's, it's, it's my weakness.
It's the thing I have to keepgoing back to and work on and,
(44:37):
find where that is in my story.
You know, what, why is this partof my story?
Why do I respond this way?
because in a conversation withyou, I'm comfortable saying,
Hey, you know what?
I was this young man full ofpride and ego, and I knew it
all.
Why would I expect it to bedifferent for someone else?
(45:00):
And, so, you know, it's, it'sthe kind of the cycle of life.
And you made me think of itabout fatherhood.
You know, we as boys, we oftenlook at our fathers as heroes,
who they knew the answer toevery question before we asked
and how every single thingworked.
And then we grow a little olderand we go, well, he's the
(45:21):
dumbest guy on earth.
I know more than him.
And then we grow a little bitmore and we go exactly what you
pointed out.
Wow.
He kind of knew a lot of things.
and you know, the only way youget that perspective is to live
it out.
Jason (2) (45:38):
of the things that comes out in this podcast often
is that the importance of havinga mentor,
David (45:46):
yes.
Jason (2) (45:46):
it again, and I think that's, you would reiterate it.
I mean, that's, that's reallynow your new business that
you're starting up isessentially,
David (45:55):
that's it.
There's nothing, yeah, there'snothing else that I'm gonna be
doing other than mentoring,other people walking through the
small business journey andgoing, let's talk about it.
let's work through it.
you know, when you're not underthe pressure of, our selfish
personal dependence on thoseoutcomes, I think that, um, you
(46:19):
know, I do have wisdom that Ican share with people in a way
that's not, it builds them up.
And builds, builds the kingdomup.
And so, you know, I'm excitedand, newly learning and
recognizing that, you know, atype a personality that kicks
down doors is probably not thebest way to mentor someone else.
(46:40):
And so it's really fun to be astartup again.
Jason (2) (46:45):
yeah.
I pray the Lord will use you inthat because how rewarding is
that to come alongside and help,you know, help other
entrepreneurs and businessowners when you've been through
too and over multiple decades.
So you've got a lot you can andhelp them through that.
you and I talked a little bitbefore I hit record, and we both
share a passion to help othersin the church, help other
(47:08):
believers understand that theirwork in a secular environment
matters greatly to God and tothe kingdom, and that we are
called to these places of workto honor Christ.
not just, I'm gonna steal alittle bit from, uh, of my
favorite.
Authors and podcasters.
Jordan Rainer, who I, he was onmy show earlier and, you know,
(47:32):
and he, and he talks about yes,we should view our work as an
opportunity to evangelize.
Absolutely.
David (47:37):
Mm-Hmm.
Jason (2) (47:38):
should view our work as an opportunity to earn an
income and advance the kingdommonetarily.
But there's inherent value inour work.
things that God has called us togo and be a blessing to those we
work with, to restore, to build,to create, to whatever it is
that we do, that are, arecharacteristics of God.
(47:58):
And so my question for you is,through your years of work, how
did you work and strive to honorChrist in, in your work as a,
you know, let's say as a, as aretail manager owner, business
owner, and then also as asoftware startup owner?
you with me, when we first had aphone call, but can you share
(48:20):
with the audience a little bit,like how did you try to honor
Christ in those roles that youhad?
David (48:24):
back in Bibles we spent a lot of time in, the New
Testament in the book ofEphesians.
And, There's kind of a, couplethree verses there in chapter
four of Ephesians that lays downthe various offices within the
church.
(48:44):
and then provides directinstruction to the pastors and
teachers within the church body.
And that is their job is tobuild up the, church family for
the purpose of ministry.
And, when I read those thingsnewly as a student, it just
(49:06):
landed on me absolutelyperfectly.
and so I processed that throughthe lens of work and very much
realized, I was called by Godinto the marketplace.
and, you know, kind of relatingthis back Jason, to sometimes
being uncomfortable in thechurch building.
(49:27):
you know, one of the things thatI think all people, who aren't
necessarily on stage, they feelless important
Jason (2) (49:35):
Right,
David (49:36):
when in reality we are out there to do the work of
ministry.
Well, the, the work of ministryis to build the kingdom of God.
The work of ministry is to love,Christ's.
sons and daughters well to lovecreation.
Well, I wrapped my head aroundthat pretty deeply.
And, uh, you know, we operatedour company, really every day
(49:58):
for the last 20 years with theidea, the concept that our work
is extremely important.
That every opportunity we haveto talk to a customer, to talk
to a coworker, to, talk to asupplier or a vendor or a
partner.
Those were all opportunities torepresent Christ in the work of
(50:22):
ministry.
And, uh, so, so we taught thatto people as they started to
join our company, over the last20 years.
And, um, you know, we were, I.
In some ways, bold.
you know, my wife and I decided,that, we were willing to take
some risks.
And so during the interviewprocesses, we, talked about our
(50:46):
faith openly and said, you know,we are, not just Christians, but
we operate a Christian business.
And this business is built todevelop the kingdom of God.
And the kingdom of God isimportant to us because of, you
know, the foundational buildingwalks of our faith.
(51:06):
you know, maybe the most outwardappearance of that was, every
Monday morning for 20 years, wehosted a, a.
Monday morning prayer meeting,and it was, you know, think of
it kind of like an intercessorytype prayer, where we
collectively as a team prayedfor our company, but we also
(51:27):
prayed for one another.
and when you operate in closequarters with people and you
learn that, husbands and wivesare struggling, or children are
causing problems, or they havefinancial woes, or, you know,
all the issues that we are facedwith in life, and you
intentionally pray about thosein your workplace, it makes all
(51:51):
the difference.
so, I am passionate about theimportance of work.
Being part of God's kingdom andbuilding up the people who work
in the marketplace, with thatkind of thinking.
Jason (2) (52:05):
when we talked on the phone, I think I asked this
question, but you said that wasa voluntary, the prayer meeting
was voluntary.
Everybody in the company wasHow, what percentage of
employees typically participatedin that?
David (52:17):
You know, it's interesting.
I, I would say a smallpercentage, consistently,
somewhere around 10, 15%consistently.
But over time, everyone,
Jason (2) (52:30):
Yeah.
Came in or out.
David (52:31):
yeah, because the fascinating thing is even for
nonbelievers, when their back isagainst the wall, they say, Hey,
I've got this big problem.
Will you pray for me?
And so, you know, it was alwaysfascinating and always a joy
that somebody who had neverattended, showed up to a Monday
(52:52):
morning prayer call because theyhad a concern that they wanted
to prayed for, and we love that.
and so,
Jason (2) (53:00):
example.
And I think not I, not everybodyprobably can do that.
You were a business owner andyou were able to, to do that.
I, I can remember one time Ihad, a manager I worked for, and
we worked in a large company.
I.
Fortune 500 company.
He was a believer.
And, him and I would meet everyFriday, just him and I in his
office, and we'd pray for workrelated things, you know, people
(53:21):
that we
David (53:22):
Mm-hmm.
Jason (2) (53:23):
we prayed for our company, you know, for wisdom
for those that were, CEO leveltop levels of the company for
our bosses.
And was the I had ever done thatwith somebody at work.
And I was like, you know, thisis good.
This
David (53:36):
This is good.
Jason (2) (53:37):
I bring, you know, the love of Christ in the
workplace like that and care forthose people in that way.
David (53:43):
Yep.
Jason (2) (53:43):
that was a really great experience and helped.
Yeah.
God, God was teaching me a lotthrough that, so,
David (53:48):
Yeah, I think that's an important example that you just
shared.
Jason (2) (53:52):
so David, last question to wrap things up here.
I always ask everybody, what doyou hope would be your legacy
when you, when the Lord callsyou into, let's say, full-time
retirement, but even the, youknow, the people you've worked
with in the prior twobusinesses, what do you hope's
your legacy that peopleremember, you and your wife,
about?
David (54:10):
at, at 58 years old, I really am thinking a lot about
that whole concept of what, whatis my legacy?
and, it is my true desire andbelief that many people that
worked for us over the last 35years, would say, well done.
(54:32):
Good and faithful servant.
you know, we, we have.
A library of stories, about, ayoung man who joined us.
he was with us for a couple ofyears.
I met his mom for the first timeand his mom called me aside and
said, Hey, hey David, I justwanna thank you.
(54:52):
because we were so concernedabout our son who was starting
to, we thought, get a little offcourse, and now he's back in his
faith and he's going to churchand he's pursuing Christ.
And you know, that story playedout as, you know, the, that
family, they've been happilymarried now for 15 years.
(55:14):
They have two children.
They're raising them in thechurch and raising them in
Christian education.
And those are the kinds ofstories that really matter to
me.
You know, the, the flip side is,you know, there are, five
examples that I'm aware of, ofpeople who came through our
company, went on to start theirown businesses, and, in those
(55:38):
five cases, they all createdmulti multimillion dollar
companies, that are employingthousands of people.
And, I hope that part of thelegacy was, that there are
principles within business thatcreate profit, and if you do
them right, you can go out andduplicate this and create bigger
(56:02):
companies than ours and biggeropportunity.
And I have a feeling, becauseI'm still relational with some
of those people, a little bit ofmy, My faith views have rubbed
off on them, even if they're notall in believers.
know, those are the importantlegacies for me.
Jason (2) (56:19):
as we faithfully live out what Christ has called us to
in the workplace, love others,care for others, operate the
business well,
David (56:29):
mm-Hmm,
Jason (2) (56:30):
ours is to be faithful.
The outcome is that's in hishands.
Right?
And, blessed in those that I'vehad the circumstance too, where
somebody I worked witheventually came to know the
Lord, him and his family.
They come to our church now.
They got baptized there, they'rewalking with the Lord.
That's amazing to be a part ofthat, the vast of the time,
that's not the outcome, but thatyou can at least know that you,
(56:52):
you know, were faithful in yourwork and helped others to, to,
to grow in their career and lovethem well.
And, you know, had,conversations that sometimes
were difficult, but we're donein love and all those things
that I think believers need todo when they're in, when they're
in roles of leadership.
So that's, that's
David (57:08):
No question.
Yeah,
Jason (2) (57:10):
Well, brother, I appreciate your time today.
I know you're super busy.
I think, uh, this is a amazingstory that, God has used, you
and your wife to impact thesepeople over these several
decades.
So I can't wait to publish it.
And, uh, thank you, thank youfor being willing to, to be a
part of the, the show.
David (57:26):
it's been my joy.
Thanks, Jason.
Yeti Nano & Logitech BRIO (57:28):
And thank you again for joining me
to hear from another leader wholoves God and loves people and
is working to show this love intheir workplace.
pray, you will join me againnext month.
As we continue to see what Godis doing in and through other
leaders.
Welcome to the biblical leadership at
(00:01):
work podcast.
I'm your host, Jason Woodard.
In this month's episode, we willmeet David lively.
David has over two decades ofexperience as a successful
entrepreneur, having had theopportunity to start grow and
then sell.
To businesses.
His experience is in the retailfurniture industry and in the
software industry.
(00:22):
Now he is working as a businessconsultant, helping other
business leaders implement thebiblical principles David and
his wife have used tosuccessfully own and lead their
own two organizations.
In today's show, you will hear alot of great wisdom, including
how we can leave organizations.
David (00:40):
this company was small enough, it didn't have enough
space for two young guys whowere,
Jason (2) (00:45):
Up
David (00:45):
know, full of energy and dreams and goals and focus.
And so I went to his dad andsaid, Hey, you know, the
writing's kind of on the wall.
I love you.
I love your son.
I want nothing but goodness tohappen here.
And he said, I'll make a callfor you.
And, I.
Started a job in just a coupleof weeks at a larger company, in
(01:08):
a management role,
Yeti Nano & Logitech BRIO (01:10):
You will also hear how God has led
David and his wife through manytwists and turns, but has always
remained faithful.
David (01:17):
Thank you Lord.
I can't believe the twists andturns that my life has gone
through and looking back, seeingyou every step of the way.
at 58 years old, it's quite.
an overwhelming and amazing lookback.
You know, it, it, it makes melove him more.
Yeti Nano & Logitech BRIO (01:39):
And you will hear many examples of
how David views work as aministry and a calling.
David (01:45):
The work of ministry is to love, Christ's.
sons and daughters well to lovecreation.
Well and so, I wrapped my headaround that pretty deeply.
And, we operated our company,really every day for the last 20
years with the idea, the conceptthat our work is extremely
(02:07):
important.
That every opportunity we haveto talk to a customer, to talk
to a coworker, to talk to asupplier or a vendor or a
partner.
Those were all opportunities torepresent Christ in the work of
ministry.
Jason (2) (02:26):
Okay.
Well, David Lively, thank you somuch for taking time outta your,
busy schedule brother, andjumping on the podcast with me
to let people get to know you.
David (02:35):
Awesome.
I'm looking forward to it,Jason.
it's exciting to catch up andtalk about these important
things.
Jason (2) (02:41):
So let's start off, let's talk about your
background.
I know you've got quite a, a, along career and, we've talked a
little bit about that.
But take us back to your careerbeginnings, you know, education
professional, did you start andup to now, where you, where are
you, where's God Got you now.
David (02:59):
you know, I always think my long career, makes me an old
man.
I feel it every day.
You know, physically, thingshurt that never hurt.
it's been 35 years in business.
And, prior to that, I startedout with a failed, college
career.
I was on the six year programand still didn't finish.
(03:19):
during that time, I, took a job,that, I had no earthly idea
would turn out to be a huge partof my life's work, in business.
I always laugh at myself saying,I'll bet you when you are a
little boy, or most little boysI ever met, never said, when I
grow up, I want to sell sofas topeople.
(03:40):
But I ended up in, I ended up inthe furniture business and, that
started back in the, in the, midnineties.
and that was back in the daywhen, our banks were absolutely
crazy and they lended 167% loanto value on my wife and I's
first home.
And we went out and opened alittle, retail store and, that
(04:04):
began the ride.
And, we worked hard and keptgrowing and carefully investing
and it turned out to be 40locations, across nine states,
and ultimately ended up with1100 employees.
became a big company and, we, wewere fortunate enough, to sell
that business, in the, uh, earlytwo thousands.
(04:27):
that sale was very much relatedto family, because we had a
young daughter at the time.
She was, four and a half comingup on five years old.
And my life at the time was,Sunday night or Monday morning
airplanes and arriving home lateFriday night or Saturday morning
(04:48):
from a week's worth of trips.
And it wasn't how my wife and Iwanted to do life.
And while we were fortunate,financially, and it felt good,
for, you know, pride and ego forme personally, it just wasn't
our life goals.
And so we, we took a pause for acouple of years.
(05:08):
I ended up going back to school,got a bachelor's degree in
practical ministry, from.
Southern Ohio School of Ministryand, we started a little
software company and, have spentthe last 17 years, building that
software company and, and soldit just a year ago as well.
(05:30):
And so I think I'm down to thefinal frontier here.
I am back at the very beginningas a startup and, I've opened, a
Christian coaching business and,have been fortunate enough to
take a first client and I'mworking hard with them, to use
kingdom principles in themarketplace.
(05:52):
And so it's fun and it'sexciting and it's my passion and
so kind of my work history.
Jason (2) (05:58):
me back to how did you get into furniture retail?
Was it just, Hey, I need a joband hiring?
David (06:06):
yes, yes.
It start, it started in thewarehouse.
my job was to unload freighttrucks that came in.
And, I enjoyed the work.
I enjoyed the people around.
and, the owner of that company,I'm putting words in his mouth,
but he just recognized, youknow, Hey, this is a nice young
man.
He's a hard worker.
(06:27):
he could probably do more thanjust unload boxes.
And so I got, promoted to a 100%commissioned sales job and
excelled at that.
I did quite well.
And, and really, I.
When my wife and I got married,that was my job.
And, uh, it, it provided nicelyfor our family for the first few
(06:51):
years.
and then that job led to thenext promotion into a low level
management job.
and that low level managementjob led to the next management
job.
And then, interestingly enough,kind of part of that story is
the company was quite small and,my wife and I had recently been
(07:12):
married and, The owner's son wasin our wedding.
And, uh, so he came home from,Colorado, where he was living at
the time to be in our wedding,and he picked us up from our
honeymoon and said, Hey, I'mreal excited.
I'm coming back to work at thefamily business.
And, and my heart dropped,because I, I love my friend very
(07:36):
much, but this company was smallenough, it didn't have enough
space for two young guys whowere,
Jason (2) (07:43):
Up
David (07:43):
know, full of energy and dreams and goals and focus.
And so I went to his dad andsaid, Hey, you know, the
writing's kind of on the, thewall.
I love you.
I love your son.
I want nothing but goodness tohappen here.
And he said, I'll make a callfor you.
And, um, I, Started a job injust a couple of weeks at a
(08:04):
larger company, in a managementrole, and did that for a while.
a couple,
Jason (2) (08:09):
furniture.
Furniture, retail as well.
David (08:13):
it was, And, and during those couple of years there, I,
I saw an opportunity and,borrowed all that money and got
started on our own.
Jason (2) (08:23):
out on your own.
David (08:24):
You know, another interesting part that just
popped in my mind about thatgoing out on my own, our dreams
and goals don't always alignwith our flow.
Jason (2) (08:36):
That's true.
David (08:37):
And, we were operating a very nice little business, but
we, didn't plan well enough forthe runway.
How long is it gonna take forthis little business to produce
enough revenue to pay for ourfamily's bills?
fortunately we had.
just loving parents who helpedus through those early times and
(08:57):
kept us going.
And once we got over the hump,then, God blessed us and the
company started to really grow.
The other fascinating thingabout that first little store is
our daughter, she's 27 now, butshe was born on November the
fourth, and our very first storeopened on November the 22nd.
(09:19):
And that's advice I would nevergive anyone.
Don't have a kid and open yourfirst business a few weeks
later, because, th those twothings don't align well.
Jason (2) (09:31):
Well, I will share with you that my oldest son,
our, our oldest son and his wifeare business owners.
And I think they've been inbusiness now about a little over
two years and a year into thatthey had their first child And
have, you know, remodeling theirhouse.
And I think some of the stuffthat I did when we were young
(09:52):
and I'm like, oh no, this is somuch, and yeah, I can get really
overwhelming, but the Lordprovides, I think he grows us
through those, he growsstressful and challenging times.
David (10:02):
No question.
Jason (2) (10:03):
and say, I don't know if I'd do it just like that
again.
But,
David (10:05):
Yep.
Jason (2) (10:06):
and uses that, uses that stuff to grow us.
I think,
David (10:10):
Yes.
Agreed.
Yep.
Jason (2) (10:13):
so you've had two businesses you've sold, which I
think is amazing.
I lo I never get tired ofhearing how God took someone
young in their life when theywere trying to figure stuff out.
Am I supposed to go to college?
Certainly you probably feltlike, man, I went to college.
That didn't work out.
there had to when you felt alittle bit of being a little
lost or despair, but God had aplan for you obviously has
(10:35):
blessed you and your leading youthrough this career path.
And I, one of the things I, Ialways want people to get out of
this podcast is that hindsight,right?
Because I would assume there'slisteners that are maybe years,
30 years younger than you or Igoing through now and feeling
that.
And so it's always encouragingto hear how, as a faithful
(10:56):
believer, if you're, know,focused on walking with the
Lord.
That there'll be ups and downsand twists and turns, and he'll
bring things to you that you arenot aware of.
But, there's many, manyblessings that come, you know,
when we stay steadfast with him.
David (11:10):
as believers, you know, we read scripture, and, my
experience has been oftentimeswe read that scripture and
understand it intellectually,oh, I know what these words
mean.
but moving those words from ourheads to our hearts, that's what
changes everything.
and the reality is, God has madepromises to his sons and
(11:35):
daughters, and God doesn't breakthose promises to his sons and
daughters.
He is faithful.
He, provides immeasurable graceand love.
And so, I wasn't able toverbalize this as a young man,
but the reality of the look backnow is, I was focused first on
(11:57):
the kingdom of God as it'swritten in Matthew
Jason (2) (12:00):
That's right.
David (12:01):
and all else was added to me.
Jason (2) (12:04):
That's
David (12:04):
it never, it never minute by minute felt that way through
some of the challenges.
but when you are able to lookback over a life lived, you go,
wow.
that's just one more example ofGod caring for me in a way that,
that is better than I everexpected, better than I could
(12:25):
have ever dreamed.
and I just didn't maybeacknowledge that at the time.
Jason (2) (12:32):
Exactly.
David (12:33):
today I praise that, like, thank you Lord.
Thank you Lord.
I can't believe the twists andturns that my life has gone
through and looking back, seeingyou every step of the way.
at 58 years old, it's quite.
an overwhelming and amazing lookback.
(12:56):
You know, it, it, it makes melove him more.
Jason (2) (12:59):
Your faith grows stronger.
David (13:01):
Mm-Hmm.
Jason (2) (13:02):
just know, you know, you just know he's proven
himself over and over and over.
think about it, I had a pastorone time who used to use an
example of, a needle point onthe front right, is this image
and these words, but on theback, on the back it's a hot,
chaotic mess.
And you look at the back andyou're like,
David (13:22):
Yep.
Jason (2) (13:23):
And sometimes, and so his, his point was that
sometimes alls we see is theback of that needle point and we
look at our and go.
So this is crazy.
This is a mess.
But you know, God's gotsomething he's mapping out for
us, which is yeah,
David (13:35):
That's such a wonderful, wonderful example, picture that
you just put in my head, that Ihad never heard before.
Wow.
That, that is absolutely thecase.
Jason (2) (13:45):
appreciated his share in that true.
David, talk about faith.
tell us about your faith.
did you grow up in the church?
Did you come to know the Lordlater?
What's that look like?
David (13:54):
I did, I, was, fortunate to grow up in a, Christian
family.
I went through, A denominationalconfirmation.
the term that lots of peopleknow would be catechism, a sixth
through eighth grade, two yearperiod of time.
It's kind of a young man comingof age, or young woman coming of
age.
(14:14):
the study of, okay, how's theBible structured?
what is the story of the Bible?
why do we believe what webelieve?
What are the big foundationalbuilding blocks of the faith?
And that time, I was all in.
I left those two years going,wow, this is the, this is the
greatest story I've heard in mylife.
(14:36):
I'm all in, I am full on,believing I, I get this.
but I will say, you know, lifehappens and, those beliefs
didn't always, as a young manline up with the actions and
activities of my life.
you know, I would describemyself as a wayward believer for
(14:59):
many, many numbers of years.
and ultimately for me, Jason, itwas, and I actually find it true
often today.
I feel I.
Like an outsider, the structureof the church, the conversation
in the, you know, as you'rewalking into the sanctuary, how
are you today?
(15:20):
Fine.
How are you?
Fine.
How are you?
Fine.
And I am sitting there on theinside going, wow, all these
people are fine.
And I'm not,
Jason (2) (15:30):
and,
David (15:30):
and, and, and and I, I literally just go, wow.
I, it makes me uncomfortablebecause I'm not fine.
I'm actually dependent and needyand, desirous of the personal
relationship with Christ and.
Life isn't always fine for me.
(15:51):
so as a young man, I wasn't ableto process that real well.
what it made me feel like is,oh, I'm not welcome here because
I'm so messed up and all ofthese people are fine.
Well, I don't want to go to aplace where I am messed up.
(16:11):
And so, you know, I will say Iwalked away from the formal
relationship with, you know,what we call the church today.
Jason (2) (16:20):
Yep.
David (16:21):
but I, I never, ever, had a moment of doubt, like, oh, I
don't believe what I was taught.
I don't believe what I believe.
That never happened to me.
and then, you know, as I maturedand got to, you know, my feet
under me a little bit as a, as aman, I started to figure out.
(16:41):
These folks aren't necessarilyfine.
and I hesitate to say thatbecause I'm not, I certainly am
not judging when I say that.
I just know from experience now,from doing life with other men,
with husbands and wivestogether, we're all dealing with
the challenges of earth,
Jason (2) (17:03):
It's sin and earth and
David (17:05):
the, the fall.
Jason (2) (17:06):
Yes.
Yeah.
David (17:07):
And, and, if we jumped all the way back to Genesis, you
and I should be able to walknaked before God.
Jason (2) (17:16):
Right?
David (17:16):
that was the story, that what was going on.
and we don't need fig leavesbecause we are purely who we are
and we're honest with ourselvesand with him and with our
situations and, you know, we allknow that's not how life works.
And, um, post fall, we sin hasentered and life's different.
Jason (2) (17:39):
I recently had a chance to, I occasionally will
fill the pulpit.
And one of the things that I waschallenging our congregation and
myself with was growing inholiness and what are those
things that we ought to bedoing?
one of the phrases that I usedwas to be living in vulnerable
community with our church body.
I think that word is importantcritical, that vulnerable piece,
(18:01):
because what you said about, themeat and greet and the, and the
narthex.
I haven't, I haven't heard thatword used in a long time.
But Yeah.
And you know, everyone,everything's fine.
Even though.
the way to church, you just hada knock down drag out in the car
with your right?
And it's, yeah, yeah, yeah,yeah.
So I think, you know, as I lookback at, as I grew into church
(18:23):
leadership roles, that was thefirst time for me that I
realized not everybody's fine.
I mean, I started to see some ofthe, the mess in people's lives.
And again, not judging becausewe had'em in
David (18:36):
Yep.
Jason (2) (18:36):
And I, I just want always to encourage other
believers to be willing to livein that vulnerable state with at
least people in your church bodyto let them know, I meet fairly
regularly with some of the menin our church over coffee,
one-to-one.
I love doing that.
I like that, type ofrelationship building.
(18:57):
I always wanna be able to haveopen conversations with them and
let them know that it's okay.
You know, that struggle, notthat I would say it's okay.
Like, don't fight it.
Yeah.
We need to wrestle and fight andstill grow in our holiness, but
don't think that you're the onlyone, because what you talked
about feeling alienated or I'mthe only one who's dealing with
some kind of an issue will drivepeople away.
(19:19):
And, uh, that's, you know, wedon't, we want them to, to come
and be open and say, I needhelp.
You know, who can come and helpme in this?
And that's part of why, it'spart of why I do this podcast.
'cause I want to talk to about,we'll talk a little bit about
what struggles have you faced,what have you learned?
And guess what?
Learning is usually a process offailing and making mistakes, you
know,
David (19:39):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And getting comfortable withthose failures and mistakes,
Jason (2) (19:43):
Exactly.
David (19:44):
I'm, I'm Okay.
Yes.
I, I mess this up.
I'm responsible and that's okay.
and has to get worked out personby person.
Jason (2) (19:54):
it does.
So, question for you then, youthink back through, you've owned
businesses, you've led peoplefor several decades.
David, is there something thatyou've come to a point where
when you think about biblicaleffective leadership in the
workplace, like what does thatboil down for you?
How would you summarize the, thekey important points or, you
(20:15):
know, kind of what's your,what's your go-to motto or the
way you think about effectivebiblical leadership at work?
David (20:21):
Yeah.
so I, I met a teacher, fromChillicothe, Ohio.
It's a small town in, southernOhio.
And, he was an instructorduring, my time in bible
college.
And he was, working on a processat the time and writing a book
and trying to form up histhinking around these things.
(20:44):
And when he shared it with me,for me it was like a light bulb
moment.
and ultimately.
he ended up calling italignment.
and alignment is an easydescription of a harder set of
terms, kingdom sequence.
it's just four easy steps interms of the words.
(21:07):
They're very hard to actually,live out.
but I have built companies basedon this, I've taught it to,
every person that has everworked for me, in the last 19
years.
and so alignment is authority,order, function.
(21:28):
And in the kingdom of God, thefinal step would be blessing.
That's what, as believers we'retrying to, act in a way or do
things in a way that createblessing in the for profit
marketplace, the goal is profit.
So authority, order, function,profit is the marketplace
(21:52):
sequence of alignment.
and then, you know, to talkabout it just a little bit.
So once something is placedunder authority, or authority
has been established, you know,like, okay, who is responsible
for this action or activitywithin an organization?
(22:12):
They become the authority.
Then that authority can begin toplace things in order.
So, you know, we're gonna dothis and we're gonna do that.
this is the outcome.
And, once things are ordered forpeople, they can begin to go to
work on it.
And when groups of people beginto go to work on things that are
(22:36):
properly placed in order, theyfunction.
and when the sequence comestogether, it produces profit, in
life.
you know, we place ourselvesunder the authority of Jesus.
and, interestingly enough, Jesusunderstood this real well.
so if you move this intoscripture and think about it.
(22:58):
So when Jesus approached John atthe river for baptism.
He understood Christ, understoodthat John was the authority who
needed to baptize him.
John said, John said, no, no,no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,
no, no, no, nope.
You are the lamb.
I, I, I don't, don't make me dothis.
(23:20):
and Christ understood that ithad to happen that way because
John was the earthly authorityto baptize, mankind.
so then that process kind ofplays out through that baptism.
So Jesus placed himself underJohn's authority.
And when Jesus came out of thewater, God audibly spoke and
(23:43):
said, this is my son and I ampleased.
God placed things in order bypointing out, Jesus is my son,
and I am well pleased.
and then Jesus started tofunction in his ministry.
he goes out into the desert, hebegins to do battle with Satan.
(24:03):
he shows us how things are towork, and then comes back.
I am sure totally wiped out bythe way.
you know, like, whew, that was arough 40 days.
But he begins then the activityof his ministry obviously the
final part of that story is, andthe blessing of mankind happened
(24:27):
as a result of Jesusunderstanding how the sequence
worked.
And so, you know, it worksterrific as a framework in
business.
I.
It also is then proven inscripture.
and it's so easy to teach peoplebecause, think about this.
in an automobile, cars, up untilrecently ran on gasoline.
(24:49):
So the way to make a combustionengine work was to put gas in
it.
And without gas, the car won'trun.
It doesn't mean that the car isbroken.
It doesn't mean there'ssomething wrong with the car.
It doesn't mean anything otherthan, oh, this car is now out of
(25:09):
order
Jason (2) (25:09):
Right.
David (25:10):
because the authority of a combustion engine is you have
to put gas in it.
As soon as you do put gas intoan auto and turn the key, it
begins to function and theresult is it takes you down the
road.
So, you know, this is not areally complicated framework.
(25:31):
It's actually a very simpleframework.
and it's worked really well inmy life, over the last, coming
up on 20 years now.
Jason (2) (25:40):
One of the things I always go back to when I think
of leadership, and as you'retalking, I'm bouncing this model
off of that one, and I thinkthere's a lot of parallel is
that I always say that you, youhave to give clear and realistic
expectations to people andthose, those are important
words, clear and realistic, andthen you have to hold people
consistently accountable.
David (26:01):
Yes.
Jason (2) (26:02):
that fits in with what you're saying.
I understand.
I understand what you're saying.
Once you have, have clearownership, you've given them the
tools they need
David (26:11):
Mm-Hmm.
Jason (2) (26:12):
them in that process, and then they, they execute and
you just kinda repeat theprocess.
the one question I did pop up inmy mind is the outcome should be
in the business world You havethis process, you execute and it
should generate a profit.
There's times, I'm guessing,when we execute it well and the
profit doesn't come, but atleast now we've said, well,
(26:35):
okay, we know that we've had aprocess that we've operated in.
Maybe our strategy's wrong andwe need to tweak that a little
bit.
But at least you've controlledthe, the chaos, and you have to
control that chaos and have thatdefined process to follow.
David (26:50):
Well, yes.
And the framework then gives youa place to go back and look.
Jason (2) (26:55):
Exactly,
David (26:56):
the, that's the key.
Like when, when, when the resultis not producing the outcome
that you want, well, do you havea problem at the authority
level?
and the word strategy is mostoften at the highest levels of
authority.
Oh, I'm, I'm responsible tocreate the strategy that I then
(27:19):
share with my staff.
Well, I better look right hereand go, gosh, I've created the
wrong strategy.
but it gives you this frameworkto look and go.
Well, I think the strategy soundare we operating this thing
correctly?
Is it placed in order?
You know, we do step one, thenstep two, step three, or are we
(27:41):
doing step seven before we dostep one and now it's out of
order?
Is that the cause of theproblem?
Jason (2) (27:48):
I
David (27:48):
or did I as the authority not, teach well the way this
thing is supposed to work?
And am I the one that's causingthat problem?
and then the function part ofit, you know, that has to do
with, you know, all kinds ofdifferent things.
you know, my mind right now justwent to the financial metrics,
(28:10):
like, oh, well my costs are toohigh, or my expenses are too
high, or my, sales price is toolow.
And, you know, those are all thefunctional things that have to
get sorted out.
And then you're back down to,okay, if we make these tweaks,
can we produce a profit?
so again, I find it to be aframework that you can easily
(28:35):
implement and you can easilylook back for the weaknesses in
the implementation and fix them.
Jason (2) (28:43):
write the book?
Is there a book, if someone wasinterested in that framework,
that they could go read?
David (28:48):
yes, he did write the book.
The book is titled Alignmentand, his name is Mark Pifer.
I haven't looked for a longnumber of years.
my copy is tattered and torn andwritten all over.
I would guess that you can findthe book at Amazon, but I really
am not sure.
Jason (2) (29:07):
That's interesting.
I'm gonna link to it.
David (29:09):
And I'll gladly call him if you don't find it and say,
Hey, where can, where can somepeople get your book?
Jason (2) (29:15):
that would be good because we'll link to it in the
show notes too, if I get a linkon Amazon or wherever they can
buy It, the other thing it mademe think about, so I, as I
shared before we hit record,I've spent my whole career in
manufacturing and one of thegurus in manufacturing was the
Toyota production system in leanmanufacturing.
And,
David (29:33):
W Edward Demming.
Jason (2) (29:35):
Yeah.
And Tao,
David (29:36):
Yep.
Jason (2) (29:37):
said, there's a quote that he said that I love, and
I've thought about this many,many times, but he said, without
a standard there can be noimprovement.
it sounds so simple, but I don'tknow how many times I've seen
leaders, people trying to figureout how to make improvements.
And you go back and you say,you're not following any process
or standard,
David (29:56):
Yep.
Jason (2) (29:57):
in complete chaos.
And so until there's a process,you'll never make an improvement
because you might as well berolling the dice every time you
execute.
And so like your framework thatyou talked about, if you're
executing that, yeah, maybe notperfectly, but relatively
consistently, at least.
Then have a standard you'refollowing and then you can go
work on improvement.
But until you have that,there's, there'll never be an
(30:19):
improvement.
It's just luck of the draw.
So,
David (30:21):
that made me think of another book.
you know, that managementstructure in Japan came from the
United States, and after the Warw Edward Deming was sent over
there, his book
Jason (2) (30:34):
Outta the
David (30:35):
of Crisis.
Jason (2) (30:35):
I have
David (30:36):
And that, that, that book is hard and dry and tough to
read.
But man, if you can get throughthat thing, it is filled with
nuggets on.
how to make things work.
Jason (2) (30:50):
yes.
of wisdom.
A lot of wisdom in that book.
So I definitely would agree.
get a cup of coffee and read
David (30:58):
Yep.
Jason (2) (30:58):
out of the crisis.
So a little bit of a pivot,David, in the, conversation.
What are your spiritualdisciplines?
You're a man of faith.
You've been walking with theLord sounds like all of your
adult life.
Tell us a little bit about whatare the things you do daily,
weekly to.
To stay strong in your faith andto to grow in your
sanctification.
David (31:17):
without a doubt, prayer is, the most important for me in
my spiritual disciplines.
and, I actively, I.
Do that throughout my day.
I kind of formalize that alittle bit in the morning.
Good morning, Lord.
I, I am, I am glad to be awakeand I'm glad that you're here
(31:39):
with me and let's talk aboutthis day.
And that one's a little bit moreformal, but the reality is, I
think the most importantspiritual discipline that I have
is relational.
And that is, there are rarely,and I want to preface this by
saying I'm not, I'm not aterribly spiritual guy.
(32:01):
Like I don't come across thatway, but moment by moment, by
moment by moment, I'm veryrelational with Jesus.
And I find myself almost like aclose friend, best friend,
conversational relationship withChrist.
Like, Hey, what do, what do youthink about this?
have no earthly idea how tohandle this phone call that I'm
(32:26):
getting ready to have.
What would you do?
and so that's been a veryimportant part of my adult life,
is a familiar, best friend,close friend relationship with a
real dependency on Christ.
the other thi you know, I'm apretty avid reader.
I read scripture daily.
(32:46):
I also am Mostly interested inthe topic of our faith walk.
And so, you know, my bookshelfis filled with, one Christian
leadership book after the other,after the other, or even, you
know, the tried and true,Bonhoeffer, you know, how, how
(33:07):
did he process life's mostdifficult things?
you know, it's not necessarily aleadership book, but it's
Christian living.
Jason (2) (33:15):
it is.
David (33:16):
Um, and, you know, sometimes, people might get
bored with that topic.
for me, it just doesn't happen.
Um.
Jason (2) (33:23):
for someone like I think about Bonhoeffer and went
through.
You know, you talked earlierabout sometimes we read
scripture and we, we acknowledgeit with our head, but it takes
living life and just strugglingthrough it, you know, to get it
deeper and deeper into our heartsometimes.
And I know, you know, the booksthat I've read, I'm trying to
think what was his, the bookthat I read that, I can't
(33:45):
remember the title of it now.
I think it was his most popularbook, and I'm drawing a blank on
the title, but it was, was justprofound that he was, what he
was going through and, you know,as the, the Nazis were coming
into more and more power and.
His decision to, he was in theUS and to go back to Germany,
and those are really not blackand white decisions that he had
(34:08):
to face and pray through and,decide on, you know, how, how he
would face that.
So, yeah, I love biographiesbecause you learn so much from
people who have walked
David (34:18):
Yeah.
How, how did they, man, how didthey manage the same or even
more difficult challenges thanthe one I'm dealing with right
this minute?
Jason (2) (34:26):
yeah.
What are some, while we'retalking about books, what are
some other authors that youreally have enjoyed and learning
from or, that you'd
David (34:34):
well, the, you know, the, the first one's very personal
and, um, unfortunately he haspassed away.
but, the author's name is JayKeith Miller.
And, Keith's first book was ATaste of New Wine.
Christian organizations, it'smade the list as the most
influential books of the 20thcentury, in the faith, a Taste
(34:59):
of New Wine.
And he wrote that book in 1963.
he went on to write, 25 morebooks.
And, I was fortunate enough tomeet him at a moment in my life
where, I was in trouble.
my heart and head weren't in theright spot, and it was a low
moment, and I was havingdifficulty with, my wife Amy.
(35:21):
And, you know, we've beenmarried 33 years.
It's the low point in ourmarriage.
I was at a conference in Texasand I was walking across this
dirt parking lot, this old mansitting on a rock, and he speaks
up and he says, Hey.
Are you doing okay?
And lo and behold, we, we spentthe next 10 years of life
(35:41):
together, him mentoring me.
And so Keith's books are themost meaningful books to me.
Uh, yeah.
And they're, you know, they'rewidely available.
And, fascinatingly enough, youknow, a book on Christian Living
written in 1963 is still, forme, the most seminal book
(36:03):
written on how do you live anauthentic Christian life.
the book still sells widely,today.
Jason (2) (36:10):
heard of it.
I'll link, in the show notes so,so people can find it.
David (36:13):
And I also read, Andy Stanley and, um, very actively
listen to podcasts and, sermonseries from him, Tim Keller.
you know, who we, who we lost,lost this year?
Jason (2) (36:26):
I kind of Tim Keller like in the last year, and I
don't, I mean, found him likefinally read.
I read the book.
ministries of Mercy was thefirst book I read of his, and it
was very impactful.
And so now I, yeah, I'vesubscribed to his podcast and
read some other of his works andlove to hear and read and yeah.
Listen, learn from him.
David (36:48):
yeah.
And you know, he has some, somegreat two or three great books
out about the marketplace.
one of the great things abouthim as.
Just a phenomenal teacher ofChristian living and, and how
the kingdom of God works.
But he also valued themarketplace and, wrote and wrote
(37:09):
about it pretty extensively.
Jason (2) (37:10):
good endeavor?
Was that the,
David (37:12):
That's that, that's the first one that popped in my
mind, so, yes.
Jason (2) (37:16):
talk to people who are right now kind of leading
voices in the faith and workmovement.
Most of them.
Many of them point back to thatbeing an influential book.
So I think think he really, Godused him to start maybe that
movement in some ways.
I think so.
David (37:36):
Yeah.
And there's another great bookthat comes to mind from Doug
Spota.
it's called The Monday MorningAtheist.
it's kind of a, you know,clearly a, a title that gets
your attention.
Uh.
but you know, the book is about,how we live our lives on Sunday
as believers, and then we showup on Monday, and it's sometimes
(38:00):
hard for the world to see thedifference.
And, you know, one of myfavorite parts about that book
is, he calls it the SundayScaries.
it really hits home for me.
And that is, you know, we, wefinish off a work week.
Saturday is a family day, soccerfields and baseball fields and
cheerleading camps.
(38:21):
And Sunday we go to church andwe come home as a family and
we're relaxed.
But sometime on Sunday afternoonor Sunday evening, our minds
start to shift into.
Oh crap.
I've got this and this and thisand this and this that I have to
(38:42):
get done tomorrow.
And he, came up with thisphrase, Sunday scaries.
that's the reality of whathappens to us as believers.
Oh gosh, I gotta go back to worktomorrow.
And, this goodness that I feelfrom my Sunday morning worship
is now gone
Jason (2) (39:01):
Yep.
David (39:01):
and,
Jason (2) (39:02):
sets in and
David (39:03):
yep.
Jason (2) (39:04):
been through I have been through that.
Yeah.
I will link to that one.
Those are great examples.
Thank you for sharing those.
David (39:11):
my pleasure.
Jason (2) (39:12):
another question.
Go back in time and think aboutwhen you were a young leader and
starting off, we all mademistakes, we still do, but I
want to, I want you to talk alittle bit about something you
really struggled with as a youngleader you know, have you
overcome it, what do you do tomanage it?
If not, how did you overcome it?
Kind of talk about, what, what,what that thing was that you
(39:33):
really battled as a youngleader.
David (39:35):
Yeah, this, this is a hard one for me.
and, and it's fascinating,Jason, because, as I, I think
about it, it's actually startingreverse as I age and I'll, talk
about it a little bit.
So as a, as a young leader, andas a young man, not, not just in
a leadership role, but you know,the big sins, ego and pride
(40:00):
were.
big challenges for me.
you know, like, I got this, Ican handle this.
I have way more energy than thatold guy over there trying to
solve this thing.
And, you know, I think it's truein every generation.
Technology keeps changing andchanging and changing.
Well, you know, as a young man,starting out in the early
(40:22):
nineties, I understood thetechnology of the time better
than some of the people that Iwas working around.
And I, I find that that samething happens.
And so ultimately what that camedown to was a devaluing of
wisdom.
(40:43):
Like, I don't need to followsomebody who's already walked 20
miles in these moccasins.
I know better.
that's really the underpinningof what all of that stuff was as
a young leader.
I think we are living in a timeright now culturally, where,
wisdom is devalued in not justleadership roles, but in every
(41:08):
role.
we live in a time where if Ineed to know something, all I
have to do is pick up my phone.
yeah.
Hey, hey Google, what's theanswer to, you know, whatever.
that returns knowledge, but itdoesn't return any wisdom.
our software business that, wewrapped up and sold at the end
of last year, we were alreadybeginning to work on all the
(41:31):
concepts of what is happening inai.
And I look at that, not withfear, but I do at it through the
lens of, gosh, I already thinkwisdom has been devalued.
This is one step further thanthat.
like, yeah, you know, we, we,copilot or chat GPT for a, an
(41:55):
answer to any question, and itwrites it in large language and
that document comes off of aprinter is truth.
and so, you know, for me camethrough as ego and pride
problems.
as a 58-year-old old man at thispoint, the reality is I just
(42:17):
didn't value wisdom wise people,the people who have gone before
me, the people who have walkedthese paths.
you know, with a type Apersonality, you just run
through all of that and, youknow, uh, Yeah, I mean, being an
entrepreneur, my whole life,I've had to solve those things.
(42:37):
So, you know, it's just kickdown doors and, break down walls
and keep pushing.
they didn't always serve mewell.
Jason (2) (42:45):
I think of a saying, I heard somebody said this
several years ago, and I waslike, oh, that's so true.
But he said, the older I get,the smarter my dad becomes.
David (42:54):
Absolutely.
Jason (2) (42:55):
And I was like, yeah, I can remember.
You know, that's that,especially that son, father
relationship of like, you're 25,whatever you're like, dad, you
don't know.
I got this all figured out.
And know, as you, the get, yourealize there's a lot of wisdom
there.
And you think about people thathave passed, maybe even in your
family or those you've workedwith that you wished you could
(43:18):
have went back and, you know,sought some more wisdom from
and, um, you know, and hadopportunities.
There's, I think aboutconversations that I did have
with some older, men earlier inmy career that were.
Very, very helpful cause Istruggled with the same thing,
you know, it's just, why would Iask?
I got this figured out.
I have all the answers and nowyou see as in at our age, you'll
(43:40):
look and see some younger mengoing through that same thing
and you're like, I'm here tohelp if you need it, but I
can't, I can't force you to ask.
You gotta fall bit, you know,and on their face sometimes,
unfortunately.
But.
David (43:51):
I'm in that transition right now from business owner to
startup and the startup is tohelp others along the way.
so I don't operate in this everyday.
but these challenges with youngpeople, play out.
Bad emotions coming out of me.
(44:13):
You know, I end up saying, whydon't you just listen to me?
Don't you understand I'vealready done this?
don't make the same mistake.
and that doesn't serve themwell, and it doesn't serve me
well, and it doesn't serve thekingdom well.
But, you know, it's the, thefallen nature of mankind.
It's, it's, it's my weakness.
It's the thing I have to keepgoing back to and work on and,
(44:37):
find where that is in my story.
You know, what, why is this partof my story?
Why do I respond this way?
because in a conversation withyou, I'm comfortable saying,
Hey, you know what?
I was this young man full ofpride and ego, and I knew it
all.
Why would I expect it to bedifferent for someone else?
(45:00):
And, so, you know, it's, it'sthe kind of the cycle of life.
And you made me think of itabout fatherhood.
You know, we as boys, we oftenlook at our fathers as heroes,
who they knew the answer toevery question before we asked
and how every single thingworked.
And then we grow a little olderand we go, well, he's the
(45:21):
dumbest guy on earth.
I know more than him.
And then we grow a little bitmore and we go exactly what you
pointed out.
Wow.
He kind of knew a lot of things.
and you know, the only way youget that perspective is to live
it out.
Jason (2) (45:38):
of the things that comes out in this podcast often
is that the importance of havinga mentor,
David (45:46):
yes.
Jason (2) (45:46):
it again, and I think that's, you would reiterate it.
I mean, that's, that's reallynow your new business that
you're starting up isessentially,
David (45:55):
that's it.
There's nothing, yeah, there'snothing else that I'm gonna be
doing other than mentoring,other people walking through the
small business journey andgoing, let's talk about it.
let's work through it.
you know, when you're not underthe pressure of, our selfish
personal dependence on thoseoutcomes, I think that, um, you
(46:19):
know, I do have wisdom that Ican share with people in a way
that's not, it builds them up.
And builds, builds the kingdomup.
And so, you know, I'm excitedand, newly learning and
recognizing that, you know, atype a personality that kicks
down doors is probably not thebest way to mentor someone else.
(46:40):
And so it's really fun to be astartup again.
Jason (2) (46:45):
yeah.
I pray the Lord will use you inthat because how rewarding is
that to come alongside and help,you know, help other
entrepreneurs and businessowners when you've been through
too and over multiple decades.
So you've got a lot you can andhelp them through that.
you and I talked a little bitbefore I hit record, and we both
share a passion to help othersin the church, help other
(47:08):
believers understand that theirwork in a secular environment
matters greatly to God and tothe kingdom, and that we are
called to these places of workto honor Christ.
not just, I'm gonna steal alittle bit from, uh, of my
favorite.
Authors and podcasters.
Jordan Rainer, who I, he was onmy show earlier and, you know,
(47:32):
and he, and he talks about yes,we should view our work as an
opportunity to evangelize.
Absolutely.
David (47:37):
Mm-Hmm.
Jason (2) (47:38):
should view our work as an opportunity to earn an
income and advance the kingdommonetarily.
But there's inherent value inour work.
things that God has called us togo and be a blessing to those we
work with, to restore, to build,to create, to whatever it is
that we do, that are, arecharacteristics of God.
(47:58):
And so my question for you is,through your years of work, how
did you work and strive to honorChrist in, in your work as a,
you know, let's say as a, as aretail manager owner, business
owner, and then also as asoftware startup owner?
you with me, when we first had aphone call, but can you share
(48:20):
with the audience a little bit,like how did you try to honor
Christ in those roles that youhad?
David (48:24):
back in Bibles we spent a lot of time in, the New
Testament in the book ofEphesians.
And, There's kind of a, couplethree verses there in chapter
four of Ephesians that lays downthe various offices within the
church.
(48:44):
and then provides directinstruction to the pastors and
teachers within the church body.
And that is their job is tobuild up the, church family for
the purpose of ministry.
And, when I read those thingsnewly as a student, it just
(49:06):
landed on me absolutelyperfectly.
and so I processed that throughthe lens of work and very much
realized, I was called by Godinto the marketplace.
and, you know, kind of relatingthis back Jason, to sometimes
being uncomfortable in thechurch building.
(49:27):
you know, one of the things thatI think all people, who aren't
necessarily on stage, they feelless important
Jason (2) (49:35):
Right,
David (49:36):
when in reality we are out there to do the work of
ministry.
Well, the, the work of ministryis to build the kingdom of God.
The work of ministry is to love,Christ's.
sons and daughters well to lovecreation.
Well, I wrapped my head aroundthat pretty deeply.
And, uh, you know, we operatedour company, really every day
(49:58):
for the last 20 years with theidea, the concept that our work
is extremely important.
That every opportunity we haveto talk to a customer, to talk
to a coworker, to, talk to asupplier or a vendor or a
partner.
Those were all opportunities torepresent Christ in the work of
(50:22):
ministry.
And, uh, so, so we taught thatto people as they started to
join our company, over the last20 years.
And, um, you know, we were, I.
In some ways, bold.
you know, my wife and I decided,that, we were willing to take
some risks.
And so during the interviewprocesses, we, talked about our
(50:46):
faith openly and said, you know,we are, not just Christians, but
we operate a Christian business.
And this business is built todevelop the kingdom of God.
And the kingdom of God isimportant to us because of, you
know, the foundational buildingwalks of our faith.
(51:06):
you know, maybe the most outwardappearance of that was, every
Monday morning for 20 years, wehosted a, a.
Monday morning prayer meeting,and it was, you know, think of
it kind of like an intercessorytype prayer, where we
collectively as a team prayedfor our company, but we also
(51:27):
prayed for one another.
and when you operate in closequarters with people and you
learn that, husbands and wivesare struggling, or children are
causing problems, or they havefinancial woes, or, you know,
all the issues that we are facedwith in life, and you
intentionally pray about thosein your workplace, it makes all
(51:51):
the difference.
so, I am passionate about theimportance of work.
Being part of God's kingdom andbuilding up the people who work
in the marketplace, with thatkind of thinking.
Jason (2) (52:05):
when we talked on the phone, I think I asked this
question, but you said that wasa voluntary, the prayer meeting
was voluntary.
Everybody in the company wasHow, what percentage of
employees typically participatedin that?
David (52:17):
You know, it's interesting.
I, I would say a smallpercentage, consistently,
somewhere around 10, 15%consistently.
But over time, everyone,
Jason (2) (52:30):
Yeah.
Came in or out.
David (52:31):
yeah, because the fascinating thing is even for
nonbelievers, when their back isagainst the wall, they say, Hey,
I've got this big problem.
Will you pray for me?
And so, you know, it was alwaysfascinating and always a joy
that somebody who had neverattended, showed up to a Monday
(52:52):
morning prayer call because theyhad a concern that they wanted
to prayed for, and we love that.
and so,
Jason (2) (53:00):
example.
And I think not I, not everybodyprobably can do that.
You were a business owner andyou were able to, to do that.
I, I can remember one time Ihad, a manager I worked for, and
we worked in a large company.
I.
Fortune 500 company.
He was a believer.
And, him and I would meet everyFriday, just him and I in his
office, and we'd pray for workrelated things, you know, people
(53:21):
that we
David (53:22):
Mm-hmm.
Jason (2) (53:23):
we prayed for our company, you know, for wisdom
for those that were, CEO leveltop levels of the company for
our bosses.
And was the I had ever done thatwith somebody at work.
And I was like, you know, thisis good.
This
David (53:36):
This is good.
Jason (2) (53:37):
I bring, you know, the love of Christ in the
workplace like that and care forthose people in that way.
David (53:43):
Yep.
Jason (2) (53:43):
that was a really great experience and helped.
Yeah.
God, God was teaching me a lotthrough that, so,
David (53:48):
Yeah, I think that's an important example that you just
shared.
Jason (2) (53:52):
so David, last question to wrap things up here.
I always ask everybody, what doyou hope would be your legacy
when you, when the Lord callsyou into, let's say, full-time
retirement, but even the, youknow, the people you've worked
with in the prior twobusinesses, what do you hope's
your legacy that peopleremember, you and your wife,
about?
David (54:10):
at, at 58 years old, I really am thinking a lot about
that whole concept of what, whatis my legacy?
and, it is my true desire andbelief that many people that
worked for us over the last 35years, would say, well done.
(54:32):
Good and faithful servant.
you know, we, we have.
A library of stories, about, ayoung man who joined us.
he was with us for a couple ofyears.
I met his mom for the first timeand his mom called me aside and
said, Hey, hey David, I justwanna thank you.
(54:52):
because we were so concernedabout our son who was starting
to, we thought, get a little offcourse, and now he's back in his
faith and he's going to churchand he's pursuing Christ.
And you know, that story playedout as, you know, the, that
family, they've been happilymarried now for 15 years.
(55:14):
They have two children.
They're raising them in thechurch and raising them in
Christian education.
And those are the kinds ofstories that really matter to
me.
You know, the, the flip side is,you know, there are, five
examples that I'm aware of, ofpeople who came through our
company, went on to start theirown businesses, and, in those
(55:38):
five cases, they all createdmulti multimillion dollar
companies, that are employingthousands of people.
And, I hope that part of thelegacy was, that there are
principles within business thatcreate profit, and if you do
them right, you can go out andduplicate this and create bigger
(56:02):
companies than ours and biggeropportunity.
And I have a feeling, becauseI'm still relational with some
of those people, a little bit ofmy, My faith views have rubbed
off on them, even if they're notall in believers.
know, those are the importantlegacies for me.
Jason (2) (56:19):
as we faithfully live out what Christ has called us to
in the workplace, love others,care for others, operate the
business well,
David (56:29):
mm-Hmm,
Jason (2) (56:30):
ours is to be faithful.
The outcome is that's in hishands.
Right?
And, blessed in those that I'vehad the circumstance too, where
somebody I worked witheventually came to know the
Lord, him and his family.
They come to our church now.
They got baptized there, they'rewalking with the Lord.
That's amazing to be a part ofthat, the vast of the time,
that's not the outcome, but thatyou can at least know that you,
(56:52):
you know, were faithful in yourwork and helped others to, to,
to grow in their career and lovethem well.
And, you know, had,conversations that sometimes
were difficult, but we're donein love and all those things
that I think believers need todo when they're in, when they're
in roles of leadership.
So that's, that's
David (57:08):
No question.
Yeah,
Jason (2) (57:10):
Well, brother, I appreciate your time today.
I know you're super busy.
I think, uh, this is a amazingstory that, God has used, you
and your wife to impact thesepeople over these several
decades.
So I can't wait to publish it.
And, uh, thank you, thank youfor being willing to, to be a
part of the, the show.
David (57:26):
it's been my joy.
Thanks, Jason.
Yeti Nano & Logitech BRIO (57:28):
And thank you again for joining me
to hear from another leader wholoves God and loves people and
is working to show this love intheir workplace.
pray, you will join me againnext month.
As we continue to see what Godis doing in and through other
leaders.
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