June 1, 2024 • 42 mins
In this episode of the Biblical Leadership @ Work podcast, host Jason Woodard welcomes David Bahnsen, Managing Partner and Chief Investment Officer at the Bahnsen Group.
The conversation delves into Bahnsen's career journey, his role in managing a wealth management firm, and his involvement in various media as a contributor and host. They further explore the fundamental beliefs about work presented in Bahnsen's new book 'Full Time Work and the Meaning of Life', discussing the inherent value of work beyond its economic benefits, the theological underpinnings of work as a calling, and the cultural shift in attitudes towards work. The episode also addresses the issue of work-life balance, critiques the prosperity gospel, and challenges common misconceptions about retirement, wealth, and ambition from a biblical perspective.
Additionally, they touch upon the upcoming Work-Based conference Bahnsen is involved in, aimed at merging business leadership with Christian values. Bahnsen shares his core leadership principles and offers advice for new leaders, advocating for resilience, conviction, and the importance of mentorship in the workplace.
Full-Time book website
David on LinkedIn
Bahnsen Group website
Works Based Conference
Crisis of Responsibility Book
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jason (00:00):
welcome to the Biblical Leadership at Work podcast.
I'm your host, Jason Woodard.
This month, I am very excited tointroduce our guest, David
Bahnsen.
David is the Managing Partnerand Chief Investment Officer at
the Bahnsen Group.
His firm oversees 4 billion inclient assets.
David is a contributor the WallStreet Journal, and National
(00:20):
Review.
He's also a frequent guest onCNBC, Fox Business, Bloomberg
TV, Fox News, and The World andEverything in It podcast, which
is where I first heard him.
He hosts the Capital Recordpodcast, where he interviews
some of the nation's topbusiness leaders, entrepreneurs,
and financial commentators todiscuss economics, markets, and
the culture.
(00:40):
David is also an author ofmultiple books, including one
that he just released.
That is primarily what we'rehere to discuss and that book is
called full time work and themeaning of life So david
brother, thank you so much forbeing on the show.
It is truly an honor
David (00:58):
Well, thank you for having me and thank you for the
very kind words.
It's wonderful to be with you.
Jason (01:02):
Hey david before we dive into the book.
I'm curious.
Um, can you talk a little bitabout?
What you're doing nowprofessionally for those that
don't know.
And then how did, how did theLord kind of guide you into that
role through, give us a summaryof your career, maybe a little
bit about your educationalbackground.
David (01:18):
Uh, sure.
So I, uh, run a wealthmanagement firm called the
Bahnsen Group.
Uh, we run about five and a halfbillion dollars.
and prior to this, I ran awealth management practice at
Morgan Stanley, which is alarge, uh, Wall street
investment bank.
And I, left almost 10 years agoto start my own firm.
and so I've been in the wealthmanagement space for about 25
(01:42):
years.
and our offices, uh, we haveseven offices around the
country, but I spend most of mytime going back and forth
between our office in Newportbeach, California.
And New York city.
And so my wife and I have goneback between the two spots.
we have houses in both placesand we go back and forth every
month for over seven years.
(02:04):
So I spent a lot of time on anairplane, but, it's definitely a
bi coastal endeavor and, thenwe've added offices in
Nashville, Austin, Minneapolis,Phoenix, uh, and Bend, Oregon.
And so.
It's a full time gig.
Jason (02:19):
And this is something that you've been involved in
essentially since you finishedyour education.
David (02:23):
Well, I, um, I got into this field when I was 27 years
old and I, had been managingChristian music artists since my
father passed away.
And so I, ended up selling thatbusiness and wishing all the
musicians I worked with all thebest, but more or less vowing to
(02:44):
never talk to another musicianagain.
I've more, more or less keptthat vow.
Jason (02:49):
That is a, that's a big career transition.
David (02:51):
I could go on for hours, but it was, right time in both
situations for the endeavor Iwent into and the endeavor I
moved into.
Jason (02:58):
One of the ideas that you put forward in the book, and I'm
a quote, is that work itself isinherently good, even when
separated from utilitarian orpragmatic ends.
Can you talk a little bit moreabout the theology behind that
idea, David?
David (03:12):
Yeah.
I think that sentence is a greatsummary.
I do not believe that work isimportant only for its
instrumental benefits.
Work is an instrument to dailyprovision.
we do get paychecks and fromthose paychecks pay bills.
we do get, compensated and fromthat compensation give to our
(03:35):
church.
for those who are compensatedwell enough, we might even be
able to be more charitable.
And, as the Lord has blessed memore and more in my business
life, I've been able to fundChristian schools and do other
things, with giving.
And generosity that I think arewonderfully important, but I do
not think they are the point ofthe work.
(03:55):
those transactional benefitsthat flow from the work cannot
be used as the basis forrationalizing the work itself.
The work doesn't needrationalizing because the work
itself is what God actuallycreated us to do.
We are all here caring for thegarden, if you will, and
cultivating it.
(04:16):
That's it.
And, we were made to do this,before sin entered the world at
work was, our very calling andpurpose.
And that continues to this day,even as God redeems us to
Jason (04:28):
Yeah.
One of the other authors that,uh, you and I talked briefly
before I hit record, and Imentioned, he recently wrote a
book as well on the biblicalmandate to work.
And he talks about the firstcommission, in addition to the
great commission, not saying thegreat commission isn't great,
but the first commission was towork and to be fruitful and to
multiply and to subdue theearth.
(04:48):
I saw a lot of that same.
Writing in your book as well.
one of the ideas that you reallypushed back on in your book, is
that we need to suppress ourcareer ambitions.
And disengage from finding anykind of identity in our work.
So, I mean, that was somethingyou really pushed back on that
mindset.
And then yesterday, I read anarticle in the wall street
journal, and it was titledAmericans don't care as much
(05:10):
about work.
And it isn't just Gen Z.
And I wanted to quote one thingthey said, and it was the staff
that they had in there.
And that is, 24 percent ofrespondents to a Pew survey said
their job or occupation was veryimportant to their identity.
So 24 percent in 2021, 17percent did.
So in later surveys, collaboratethis finding.
(05:32):
Now, I think.
That these mindsets have creptinto the church a little bit,
and I really appreciated youspeaking out against those, this
anti work bias that we haveallowed to seep into our
mindset.
And I say ours as the churchbody.
So I'd like for you to kind ofextrapolate a little bit on that
or talk a little bit more aboutyour thoughts on that and why
it's.
It's very destructive.
It's a very destructive mindset.
David (05:53):
Yeah.
And I guess I'm probably even alittle bit more negative than
that because I don't know that.
I think it's creeping into thechurch.
I think it's taken over thechurch and I think it's been
there a long time.
like, I think a lot of the, whatyou read in the wall street
journal, that's creeping intosociety.
reading things in the Atlanticabout people working too hard,
(06:13):
that's creeping into popculture.
But what's been pretty heavilypermeated in pulpits has been
that message on steroids for along time.
And so my point I make in thebook is, you know, we've all
heard the sermon.
Some of us have heard itcountless times, some version
of, Hey, you know, are you Areyou sure you're not working too
(06:34):
much?
are you appropriately balancing,the things that you have to do
at work with all these otherimportant things in your life?
and how many sermons have weever heard about?
Are you sure you're not spendingtoo much time at home?
Are you sure you're not, um,ignoring your responsibilities
for, performing at a high levelin your vocational calling.
I think that the church has beenstruggling with different
(06:56):
versions of this for a longtime.
And so there's a lot of problemsin our society that I view as
the culture going astray and thechurch kind of following.
And in this case, I think it'sworse.
I think the church is sometimeseven leading in a negative way.
Jason (07:11):
Do you think, David, that the first idea we talked about,
this problem of seeing work asjust a means to an end, a very
pragmatic, kind of necessaryevil, do you think that that
then leads to why would I putany more effort into work?
Why do I got to do my work withexcellence?
Why do I have to work any morethan I should?
Need to type of mindset.
(07:32):
Do you think the one comesbefore the other?
David (07:34):
Yeah, I do.
I, but I gotta be honest.
I think a lot of it isgenerational.
that I think there is a Uh, asense in which baby boomers
worked really hard, butportrayed a belief that the hard
work was so that they couldretire.
And they messaged tomillennials, uh, the idea that
(07:55):
the purpose of work was to nothave to do it anymore.
And within, within the church,I, I make an argument that
there's a deeper theologicalexplanation that, out of the
early 20th century.
the church was dealing with,fundamentalism and a pietism and
a cultural retreatism that waslargely the, the chosen,
(08:17):
antidote to, modernism andliberalism and Darwinism and
other bad things that werehappening in the early 20th
century.
And I don't think that it wentreally well for the church.
So in a lot of ways, we've spentthe last 40 years in the church.
undoing some of that retreatismsaying, Hey, we are not happy
(08:39):
with the results of Christiansbeing out of politics.
And so they're reengaging in thecivic realm.
And I think that's a good thing.
And we're really not happy withChristians being out of
education.
And all of a sudden they'vecreated this really robust
homeschool movement andChristian school movement.
And I mean, you're talking aboutmillions and millions of people.
(08:59):
That have come into differentalternate, engagements with
education.
But in the marketplace, theywere just totally unprepared for
the concept of influence anddominion in commercial society.
And I think that, where thefaith and work movement kicked
in 20 plus years ago, it waslargely to just sort of sprinkle
(09:21):
on top.
of various positions ofachievement that Christians and
evangelicals had achieved intheir work.
It was to sort of sprinkle ontop, you know, some tools for
evangelism and things like that.
Soul saving.
Jason (09:36):
in in the workplace Yeah,
David (09:38):
in the workplace.
but never to actually teach, theidea that our efforts in
technology or agriculture ormanufacturing or finance or
entrepreneurialism or media orwhat have you were inerrantly
important as kingdom work.
And that's, to me, The task thatwe have to take on
Jason (09:57):
that's key.
That's like at the root of it.
I think David.
What's your response to thosewho would say?
Well, what about workaholics andpeople that work too much and
sacrifice their family?
I mean, you spoke of that, Ithink, really well in the book.
I'd like to get your thoughts onit here a little bit.
David (10:14):
Yeah.
You know, I, I think that it canhappen.
I, the first thing I would sayis I don't think it happens very
much.
And so I hate to set normativesand biases and.
predominant lines of thinkingaround things that are the
exception, not the rule.
In some cases, it flat out isalmost equivalent to giving a
(10:38):
whole sermon to warn peopleabout the dangers of tidal waves
in Kansas.
when I look at the state ofYoung men in the culture, prime
working age men that right nowhave the same, level of
employment that they did in thegreat depression.
only we have almost fullyemployed society now.
(10:59):
Okay.
So the difference is peoplevoluntarily removing themselves
in between the ages of 29 and 54years old from the labor
participation force.
So they don't show up asunemployed because they're not
employed or looking for work.
Therefore they're notunemployed.
That is a major sociologicaltrend where the labor
(11:20):
participation forces has shrunkby 14 million people in the last
16 years.
And the prime area in which itis shrunk is in a prime working
age demographic and the femalesare no lower than they were.
It's entirely
Jason (11:36):
Men.
Yeah.
David (11:37):
giving a sermon about that man who's workaholic, I
just find to be very bizarre.
if someone wants to give me asermon, About how to behave well
when I'm in the locker room withmy NBA teammates Then I'll take
the sermon to heart, but I gottabe honest I don't think i'm
going to make an NBA teamanytime soon So it would be a
(11:57):
really silly sermon to givebecause it doesn't apply to my
context Now all that to sayobviously there are people that
could treat their work as anidol And the point I make, and I
have a whole chapter about thisin the book, as you know, is
that God is against allidolatry.
Not merely the idol of work.
(12:17):
I don't believe there's thatmany people, that make work
their idol, but I think thereare people that avoid their
family.
But what is the sin in thatconstruct?
Is the sin The working too hardor is the sin ignoring one's
family and the way I phrase itto someone is pretend You're a
believer and you have a friendwho's not a believer and they
(12:40):
have a significant problem withdrugs And then they become a
Christian and you say to them,you know, you got to quit doing
the drugs.
Now, this is part of a life ofdiscipleship of new faith.
This, this old habit has to go.
And everyone would say, ofcourse, you know, this guy's
become a Christian needs to putaside the womanizing or the drug
(13:00):
abuse or something like that.
I go, okay, now I want you topretend you have an unsaved
friend.
And he works at a private equitycompany or a law firm and he
works really hard and he's sogood at what he does He's
committed.
He's dedicated and now hebecomes a christian.
What does he have to get rid ofnow?
Maybe his motivations need tochange maybe his tithing habits
(13:25):
need to be nourished anddeveloped maybe you know, some
of the bedside manner and how hedoes his job might be a little
different But do we need to tellhim or her to get rid of their
old life?
But see, we treat it like theydo.
We treat it like, like the drugproblem for an unbeliever and
the work problem are the samething.
But they're not.
(13:46):
So I'm against anyone ignorestheir family because I'm against
ignoring one's family.
I'm not against ignoring one'sfamily because I'm against work.
Jason (13:53):
One of the things that you talked about also in the
book, David, and has, helped me,in my thinking, and you, you
already hit on this, but again,that labor participation rate
and that, that, you know, thatwhole, uh, and I'm gonna quote
one of what, one of thestatistics you were just talking
about, but that was the, thework rate for Prime age men in
this last decade is lower thanit was in the Great Depression.
And you, again, you just saidthat, but I think people really
(14:16):
need to understand.
that's real right now.
that's how bad it is.
What would you say that thatmeans for those of us that are
hiring managers?
I think about myself in this.
So I'm responsible for a teamand a workplace.
A lot of my podcast audience istheir business leaders across a
variety of industries.
(14:38):
And we have, A decade or two orthree ahead of us probably in
which we're going to be tryingto recruit and retain people.
I think that what we used to doin the last 20 or 30 years to do
that has to dramatically changebecause of this fact that one of
the other statistics that youpresented was that if the labor
(14:58):
participation rate.
Was the same now as it was in2000, there would be 10 million
more people out in theworkforce.
I live in Michigan.
That's the population of myentire state.
Every man, woman, and child.
They vanished from the workforcein 20, 24 short years.
how do we, uh, Approach hiringand recruiting practices now
(15:20):
differently than we have in thepast.
I mean, you just don't, there's10 million less people out there
and it's not going to changeanytime soon.
I don't think, I don't know ifyou see a time in the next 10
years that it's going todramatically get better.
David (15:31):
Well, the cultural phenomena that will have to
drive people back to work isjust that it's a cultural
phenomena.
number one issue here and itrequires me to explain it a
little bit so people don'tmisunderstand.
But people have to feel shame.
Jason (15:49):
Yeah.
David (15:50):
There's no shame in it right now.
Jason (15:52):
There's pride.
I think there's pride in it.
David (15:55):
absolutely.
And, and so it was the subjectof my very first book, which was
called crisis of responsibility,our cultural addiction to blame
and how you can cure it.
And it was about the financialcrisis of 2008.
And I made the point that itwasn't just that we had a moment
in which millions of people whocould afford to keep paying for
(16:17):
their house, Chose to give thekeys back for their house.
It was that we had millions ofpeople who did that and didn't
feel any shame about it at all.
They could go to the bar onFriday night and brag about it.
And I think that was a really,really sudden and awful shift in
the culture.
From like in the greatdepression, you had a very high
(16:39):
amount of unemployment.
But people paid their bills andthey felt shame and being
unemployed even when theyshouldn't, when it wasn't their
fault, when they were tryingtheir best, when they were
waiting in bread lines, whenthey were waiting for day labor
and manual labor.
But there was this sense ofpride, like a man pays his
bills.
A man gets up and goes to work.
(16:59):
And we got to a point wherethat, fabric is torn apart.
So yeah, there's economic thingsthat will change.
There's just variousparadigmatic shifts that will
happen.
you know, we, we live off of acertain borrowed prosperity to a
certain degree in a lot of ways.
But fundamentally the culturewill have to get to a point
where it's just unacceptable fora 32 year old to act like a
(17:22):
child,
Jason (17:24):
I pray that, that, that we see that in our lifetime.
I just, again, I fear I'veprobably got 15, 20 years of
high level engagement of workingand I think that until I I'm out
of the workforce at the levelI'm at now.
I won't use the term retireanymore.
After I read your book, I'mthinking differently about that.
We'll talk about that in aminute, but I, you know, I think
that that's just going to be a,you have to look at things very
(17:45):
differently as a hiring managerand someone who's responsible
for recruiting and retainingpeople.
It's just, it's very different.
And I work in manufacturing andso I'm dealing with trades and
the trades graph and all the,fun stuff that comes along with
the fact that we've gutted ourtrade schools for the last.
20 years and now nobody knowshow to do that.
And, you know, we have thesehuge gaps and what we're willing
(18:07):
to bring people on and pay andwho's out there and can do it,
or even wants to do it.
I can tell you stories about,you know, bringing kids in on an
apprenticeship program, they hada full ride basically with us.
And they lasted four or five,six weeks and said, nah, it's
not for me and walked out youhave one chapter devoted to
money and ambition.
Yeah.
Uh, I think the church, we tendto see two extremes.
I think, again, this is myperspective, uh, David, But, uh,
(18:29):
yeah.
I see that we tend to be there,we think there's a hyper focus
on money and wealth, which canlead to the prosperity gospel,
which is an absolute falseteaching, that creeps into the
church.
I won't say it's in the churchbecause I believe that's outside
of, orthodoxy and it's not atrue church, but that, you know,
impacts, uh, Christians.
And then the other extreme isbeing fearful.
(18:49):
Of wealth and ambition, becausewe don't want it to become an
idol, but it's just this, almostthis, stay away.
I can't even allow somemotivation internally of, Hey,
you know what, I do want tobuild wealth and yes, to provide
for my family, but.
To also provide for the kingdomwork and to build bigger
businesses and to buildhealthier businesses and to
(19:10):
sustain that work that has thatinherent value that you've
already talked about.
David (19:14):
Yeah, I'm vehemently opposed to prosperity gospel.
What's interesting is that it isusually set up as, uh, there's
people who don't understand theimportance of money.
And then there's people thatunderstand money too much or
think money's too big apriority.
And I don't think that the errorof the prosperity gospel is that
they put too much of a focus onmoney.
It's just that what theybelieve, it simply ain't true
(19:36):
that there is this embeddedpromise in scripture that God
wants you to have thesedifferent things.
there is a high level, incentivestructure that one who lays in
bed all day will go poor and onewho works hard will not.
but there is, market pricing,you know, one could work very,
very hard as a philosophyprofessor.
And they're subject to thesubjective values that exist in
(19:59):
terms of taste and preferencesand market worth.
that is, is a by product of anorganically created price
discovery system and supply anddemand.
And then one can create a newhit movie with Brad Pitt and
they're going to, I think,probably make a little more
money than the philosophyteacher.
And neither of those things haveanything to do with, that the
(20:20):
Brad Pitt movie is more valuablethan a philosophy professor.
It has to do with economicpricing, and the prosperity
gospel kind of acts as if pricediscovery doesn't exist and that
God has revealed a certain willthat he has never revealed.
But what I, what I go to greatlengths in chapter five of the
book to point out is that thebulk of the people that are
(20:41):
talking about, you know, look,you really shouldn't be going to
work to, to climb the ladder,make more money, that the bulk
of people who say it are sayingit in what is charitably called
a pharisaical context, that theyare doing so from the vantage
point of being in a position ofsome degree of economic comfort.
(21:04):
Freedom.
Now, their conveniences may notbe yachts and Mercedes and
private planes and things likethat, but they have achieved a
certain status that affords themthe lifestyle they want to have,
and then have decided anythingabove that lifestyle is
magically the point at which itbecomes sinful or problematic.
(21:27):
That is not the way it works.
get to set your own baseline.
Um, if one believes materialsuccess and earthly comforts are
inerrantly sinful, which is nothistorically, the belief in
Christian theology and certainlynot in the Protestant tradition,
but if one believes those thingsare wrong, they don't become
(21:50):
wrong at the level.
number of 93, 000 a year, youknow, that, 200, 000 is wrong,
but, uh, 94, 000 is okay.
Or something of that nature.
the notion of what passes forfinancially excessive is very
different geographically aswell.
most poor people around theworld would be utterly mystified
(22:13):
by these conversations.
That, it is, wrong to be workingfor and, and trying to achieve a
greater life for oneself is nota memo.
that most people have gotten.
The people who come up with thatare generally doing so divorced
from a worldview that actuallyprovides a standard.
Well, the standard in scriptureis that we never under any
(22:36):
circumstances forfeit ourgratitude.
And forget blessings come from.
But that there is a dollaramount that is okay and a dollar
amount that is not okay is not averse in my scripture.
So the prosperity gospel shouldbe rejected because it, affirms
things that are utterlyunaffirmable.
But phariseeism should beavoided because Jesus rebuked it
(23:01):
time and time again.
Jason (23:01):
I really appreciated the example you gave in that chapter
on that that you know What'sthat magic number because I I've
probably been guilty of it Iknow I've been in those
conversations where it's likewell in in essence, you know
people that make whatever upperupper middle class That's okay
but Boy, these people that areX, that's not, well, that's Y,
you know, again, it's inherentlywhere their heart is, not
(23:24):
necessarily a number.
So I appreciated that, uh,rebuke.
David (23:28):
I will say, I will say this too.
What's interesting is a lot ofthe people that believe like a
billion dollars of wealth isexcessive and perverse, and they
might have a couple milliondollars.
And what's really interesting ishow much naivete there is.
When you look at the very smallnumber, it's a few thousand
people in the world that have abillion dollars or more of net
(23:50):
worth.
And if one wants to believe it'swrong to have ever accumulated
it, I think it has to be wrongto have accumulated it if you
did something wrong toaccumulate it.
I think there's a lot morepeople that accumulated 5, 000
the wrong way than there are whoaccumulated 5 billion the wrong
way.
we can pretend that we're downon people just for having a
(24:10):
billion dollars that we want.
But you know, if people want tobe really clear about it, the
Elon Musk and Jeff Bezos havenot been motivated by money.
For a very long time now youcould disagree with what they're
motivated by and oftentimes Itcould be very narcissistic and
delusional But like if you lookat musk as an example, he's not
(24:31):
a person I particularly like ordislike.
I don't really care But let'sjust be clear I mean he had
achieved enough money to livemore than any very very few
people would ever have whenpaypal sold And he believed that
carbon and, fossil fuels, fromcombustion engines was a threat
to the planet.
(24:51):
And he created Tesla from whichhe obviously made tens of
billions of dollars.
but his motive was this massiveclimate objective.
And then what is the deal withSpaceX?
He wants to have people occupyother planets.
And what's the deal withTwitter?
He wanted to defend free
Jason (25:09):
Yup.
Yup.
David (25:10):
Like this is hardly like I want to get a new Mercedes
type of stuff, or show off a newbeach house.
there's a certain, aspirationfor truly gifted entrepreneurial
people that I have absolutely nointerest in putting a handcuff
on.
Let alone making up apharisaical interpretation of
scripture to do so.
(25:30):
these are people that arecreating significant wealth for
society.
And I think anyone being honestknows that the reason that
they're demonized is rankcovetousness.
It needs to stop.
Jason (25:42):
appreciated the challenge.
it was good to think through andyour, arguments are clear and
the right, uh, anothercontroversial topic that I
really appreciated and it'shelping me to change my own
thinking.
I mentioned this a little bitearlier.
I'm going to quote, one of thethings that you said is the
American ideal of retirement.
And so you said, and I quote, Ifpublic posturing and marketing
(26:03):
campaigns are to be believed,the modern purpose of work can
be defined thus.
Work is what you do so thateventually you won't have to do
it anymore.
And then you said, no thanks.
So I would like to talk a littlebit about that because I will
say, David, I think absolutely,especially as believers, that we
(26:25):
should not have that mindset,but also, and I think you
addressed this really well inthe book, is that we also
understand, I think people dounderstand that there is
probably a certain level ofperformance.
That you can achieve in your 40sand 50s and maybe 60s and maybe
70s in a certain field that youwon't continue to be able to
(26:46):
achieve, especially again formy, my brothers and sisters at
work in the trades, right?
I mean, if you're a millwrightand a pipe fitter, okay, you're
probably not going to do thatinto your 80s.
But if you do.
God bless you.
But even for those of us thatare in administrative functions,
I think you really talked reallywell about how to think about
that.
So I want to just, I want tohear your thoughts on retirement
(27:07):
and why we have a broken, alittle bit lazy, maybe I'd call
it lazy mindset towards that,because it also goes in the face
of what we said earlier, thatwork has inherent value.
And if it does, we shouldn't beworking to avoid working.
you
David (27:20):
Well, but see, that's the whole point is that it comes
down to mentality.
And so as I've gone around thecountry, since the book came out
speaking on this, and I've done,you know, well over a hundred
interviews and podcasts andwhatnot, it's a perfectly fair
question, but I do proactivelyaddress it in the book.
I'm not saying that theconstruction worker who's out in
(27:42):
the hot sun for 40 yearsworking, that when they're 78
years old, they should still bedoing that exact same level of
work.
Perhaps it does morph intosomething that's more
supervisory, something moreconsultative and maybe their
physical capacity continues toallow certain things.
Maybe it does not.
(28:03):
There's gotta be an agent stage.
Flexibility the principle is allI'm caring about here And the
principle is exactly you justsaid that it we do not approach
work with the mentality that thepurpose of it is To not do it
anymore and the notion that weare trying to get ourselves to a
point of achieving a 25 yearVacation, um, removal from
(28:26):
productive activity.
Now, someone says I can nolonger chase down bad guys.
I was a, uh, a street cop and Ican't go chase down hooligans.
I think that is perfectlyacceptable, understandable
mentality.
Maybe they wanna consult for aprivate security company.
Maybe they wanna mentor cops orbe involved in the training and
(28:50):
development program.
I don't know the nuances of whatgoes into that law enforcement
aspect, but there's very, veryfew industries, very few where
there's no role.
Jason (29:01):
Yeah.
David (29:02):
for the people who have the most experience and
expertise in the work.
And so the general principle isjust simply not evolving into a
life where there is no longerany useful activity.
And so the most common retort ispeople saying they agree with
me.
But then I got to be carefulbecause they go, no, no, no, no,
no.
I agree.
(29:22):
I don't want to just be golfingall day long.
That's why I volunteered forthis board.
We have a board meeting everyquarter.
I go work at my church, Saturdaymornings or something.
And I, I say, okay, I don't wantto talk you out of nice
charitable service.
Hopefully you're, they'regetting some value out of what
you're doing and hopefully it'sfilling your cup a little, but
(29:43):
you know, trying to sprinkle alittle bit of nice sounding
virtuous activities on top of alife of jet setting and golfing
and whatnot.
That's not really what I meaneither, because the problem is.
That person doesn't have anyidea what they're doing,
building orphanages in Mexico.
(30:05):
What they knew was that theywere practicing law for 40 years
and now they're not.
And why do we want them notmentoring young lawyers or
coming in the office a couple ofdays a week and providing a
little oversight?
So I think that the point I makein the book is that it hurts
them to be removed from aposition of useful activity.
(30:28):
It hurts me.
As a Gen X er running a businessthat we have this lack of
leadership and seniority acrossvarious industries and sectors
of the economy as we lose 10,000 baby boomers a day.
Out of the workforce, but thenit hurts Gen Z and Gen Y,
especially Gen Z, who is, beingdeprived of grownup mentorship
(30:53):
and senior veteran leadership.
Jason (30:56):
I will give you a very specific example of where I see
this.
And I think you did a reallygood job of that last point
saying you by leaving theworkforce have deprived others
coming in of learning from you.
And oh, by the way.
You got to learn from somebodyelse when you came in.
So just don't forget that.
And so I have right now, in thefacility that I work, we have
(31:21):
our youngest apprentice is 20, Ithink he's 22, 21, 23, he's
young.
And we have a gentleman whoworks part time for us, who.
Came through the trades, knowsmultiple trades.
He's the guy is unbelievablyknowledge, but he works three
days a week and he's, older thanme.
you could retire, but he comesin and works and helps and
(31:42):
supports us.
And I love it when I see himwork with that young apprentice,
because I'm like, literallyevery minute he's working with
this young guy.
he's learning so much more thananything.
He's going to go, he does hisschoolwork.
He does all that.
That's important, but it makesme feel happy every time I walk
by those two.
It really does see those guystalking.
there is a conference coming upthat you're involved in, At the
(32:03):
end of June, this podcast willrelease Lord willing on June 1st
is my plan.
And I think it's exciting to seethings like this start to come
around.
I think there's some momentum inthis movement, I'll call it.
And so would you like to talkDavid a little bit about that?
Uh, the work based conferenceand what's going on there,
what's going to be discussed andwe'll link to it in the show
(32:26):
notes and let people know howthey can, how they can go if
they'd like to.
David (32:29):
well, sure.
I mean, I'm one of the speakersat the conference and I believe
that they have a few other,speakers.
I know a couple of them that,that are really like minded on
the subject, attempting.
to plug in resources forbusiness leaders, for business
owners, for people that aretrying to wrestle with these
issues about the theologicalsignificance of work.
(32:51):
I'm fond of some of the pastorsproviding leadership into this
conference, and I think it'sgoing to be a big event.
And so I'm excited to be a partof it.
I can't, say exactly what allthe other speakers are going to
be getting into, but I know thatmy role, I'm doing a panel and
giving a speech and I intend toreally unpack, I think the
beauty of this message,connected to creational norms,
(33:15):
which I think is extremely, uh,important here, theologically.
Jason (33:19):
we'll link to their website where you can learn more
about the speakers.
a few more questions that arereally, they're questions that I
asked all my guests.
As I told you earlier, this isthis podcast.
It's really around.
Christian business leadership inthe workplace.
And so I know obviously you're abusiness leader.
You founded your organization.
You've been in leadership for along time.
So I have a couple of questionsaround that I'd like to ask you
(33:40):
that we could learn from whenyou think about leadership,
David, In the work that you do,what is your, what's your core
model?
What's your kind of coreprinciple when it comes to
leading, your team and yourorganization?
David (33:52):
Well, I think that, um, it is a, like many elements of
the Christian life.
I don't know that it's reducibleto a model.
I think that there areprinciples, first principles
that I would apply to the wayyou want to live in a certain
sphere and, uh, the way you wantto be as a person.
(34:12):
And when I think of myself as aleader, in my business.
the first principle that alwayscomes to mind is one that most
people say they agree with,which is, modeling the things
you believe in.
not so much talking about whatothers you want that you're
leading to do, but doing thosethings.
it's an important part ofleadership to me.
(34:34):
That I not adopted do as I say,not as I do approach.
I say this with all humility.
I have 63 employees in mycompany and I think 62 of the B
I'm counting myself.
62 people I think would say thatthey view me as the hardest
working person at the company.
Now I got some really hardworkers there, but I, I strive
(34:56):
as a leader very much.
To model the sacrifice and theoutput that I want.
And there's other areas where Imess up, where I make mistakes,
where I'm not modeling what Iwant to for others.
But you know, a leader, I thinkstarts by earning the, respect
of others that they want tofollow you.
(35:18):
And for me, that, respect comesfrom, living it out yourself,
getting in the trenches, gettingyour hands dirty, not operating
in a prima donna ish fashion.
another key principle that Ireally can't say enough about
is, conviction.
a leader cannot be one who,suffers from, the paralysis of
(35:38):
analysis.
You have to make decisions.
And we live with what ThomasSowell referred to in Conflict
of Visions as, under aconstrained vision of society.
I don't think we can get thingsperfect.
I don't think we can.
That there is economiccalculation, available that will
(36:01):
help me get everything right.
So I accept a margin of error,try to make the best decision I
can with the right discernment,the right data, the right,
deliberation, but then havingconviction and going forward and
you pivot when you need to
Jason (36:18):
Yup.
David (36:18):
But this is a huge element of leadership is people
that scapegoat people afraid tomake a decision.
it's not the kind of leadershipI think we're called to.
And so I feel very strongly thatpeople need to have conviction.
And those are a couple of thekey components.
I could go on and
Jason (36:33):
No, I appreciate that, man.
Uh, you're speaking my language,especially on the, well, on both
of them, but I am wired to besomeone who sometimes shoots
first and ask questions later.
And it fits me well inoperations, but you know, I've
told my team many times, like,give me an 85 percent solution.
Because I made the mistake Ihave in team members who are,
especially engineers.
And I love my engineers that Iwork with, but they can
(36:54):
overanalyze the stuff.
Right.
And I want all the data and allthe inputs.
And I ain't got time for that,man.
Give me something that's goingto get us close, pull the
trigger and move to the nextthing.
So, no, I love that beingdecisive and, you know, coming
up with, coming up with the bestinformation you've gotten and
moving on.
Hey, uh, and this may tie intowhat we just talked about,
David, but let's say you hadsomebody who's, a mentee of
(37:15):
yours and they came to you andsaid, Hey David, I just got my
first promotion as a teamsupervisor or department
manager.
You're not first entry levelleadership position.
I want to sit down and I'm goingto have a cup of coffee with you
and get some advice.
Like what do I do in my firstmonth on the job?
What advice would you give them?
What approach?
David (37:33):
Well, again, I mean, those, those things are always
hard to answer just because itdepends on the situation, the
context, the industry, thegeography, the type of job, the
age and experience of theperson.
there's just so many differentvariables.
And, you know, I think ifsomeone's coming to me, they
probably want micro advice, notmacro advice, but from a macro
(37:54):
principle, I kind of think Iwant to write a book on this
someday.
my, You know, uh, 89 principlesof, of, uh, approaching a job
or, or business life in generalor whatnot, but like, if you're,
if someone's just looking forthe most high level of macro
principles to say, I'm, I'mentering X, Y, Z industry to go
do ABC work, any, any words ofwisdom.
(38:17):
I, it really is, I think about atenacity and a grit and a
resilience.
They just, it's a messy worldand things don't go the way you
want.
And it could be a coworker andit could be a customer and it
could be a boss and it could bean underling, but just having
the ability to overcome thethings that don't go the way you
want to being flexible to workthrough tough situations.
(38:38):
And I think most people failbecause they do not have the
fortitude to get through things,not going the way they want.
You gotta take a
Jason (38:47):
Yeah, I love the grid idea.
It's absolutely true.
You just gotta keep coming backfor more.
Sometimes you just gotta keepcoming back for another punch in
the face, man, and keep comingat it if you want two last
questions for you, brother.
anyone else you'd recommend tobe able to come on my podcast,
someone who's a, you know, justa business leader who loves the
Lord and, uh, excels as a leaderin the workplace has a couple of
(39:09):
decades behind them ofexperience that they could come
and share with others on, uh,good
David (39:14):
Yeah.
I mean, obviously I know, I knowa lot of business leaders.
I'd be happy to put together afew names, ideas.
One person, I would just throwout there from a Christian
worldview standpoint that Ithink the world of is my friend,
Jerry Boyer.
I don't know if you've had himbefore or not.
He wrote a book, that reallyexegetes, much of the new
Testament brilliantly,economically called the maker
and the takers and Jerry's,consultancy firm, Boyer
(39:38):
research, Is, on retainer at myfirm because we use them for a
lot of shareholder engagement wedo.
but Jerry's been, doing some ofthese types of business
initiatives in corporate Americafor 30 years.
And, is a really effective andworldview minded believer.
I can't say enough good stuffabout Jerry and his work.
Jason (39:58):
Thank you.
No, I appreciate that.
I really do.
last thing is, what's the bestway for people to follow you,
get in touch with you?
I mean, you're all over outthere, which is great.
Every time I'll say this, David,literally, and I mean this every
time I hear you speak, or Iwrite what you have written.
And I really mean that you havehelped me in a lot of ways
around financial, economic data,just cultural So what's the best
(40:20):
way for people to follow alongand learn from you?
David (40:23):
Well, first of all, that's extremely kind of you.
and I really appreciate it.
That encourages me a lot.
I think just for simplicitysake, I'll direct people to the
books website because it's suchan easy web address, full time
book.
com.
book, all one word.
com and then from there it haslinks to other stuff on my
(40:44):
investment writing and you know,other, resources and whatnot
that I have out there, but italso just will give people a lot
of great content around thebook, audio clips, video clips,
reviews, articles, differentthings about this message about
work and the meaning of life.
And so full time book.
com.
And from there, there's, uh,other, you know, ways to stay in
(41:06):
touch.
Jason (41:07):
Yeah, and I'm going to link to as many of those as I
know about in the show notes sopeople can follow along.
And yeah, I know you're on, youhave your own podcast, you host
another podcast, so and DividendCafe and all that.
So we'll get that out there.
Hey, thank you, David.
Man, again, what an honor thatyou said yes to come on my show.
a couple of brothers, that I goto church with are world and
(41:27):
everything in it, faithfullisteners.
And when I told them That yousaid, yes, they're like, are you
serious?
David Bahnsen, man, what's yourshow becoming?
So just, uh, not a lot to me.
So thank you for it.
And I can't wait to get this outthere.
It'll come out on June 1st andhopefully be helped to people.
Please go buy the book.
It's a great book.
I read it within a week.
(41:48):
Absolutely impactful.
So thank you, David.
Appreciate it, man.
David (41:52):
Well, thank you very much.
Much appreciated.
Yeti Nano (41:54):
And thank you all for tuning in once again, to hear
from a thought leader who ishelping us all to more
purposefully work and lead forGod's glory and the advancement
of his kingdom.
I look forward to being backtogether again next month.
Until then may God bless you inyour work for his glory.
welcome to the Biblical Leadership at Work podcast.
I'm your host, Jason Woodard.
This month, I am very excited tointroduce our guest, David
Bahnsen.
David is the Managing Partnerand Chief Investment Officer at
the Bahnsen Group.
His firm oversees 4 billion inclient assets.
David is a contributor the WallStreet Journal, and National
(00:20):
Review.
He's also a frequent guest onCNBC, Fox Business, Bloomberg
TV, Fox News, and The World andEverything in It podcast, which
is where I first heard him.
He hosts the Capital Recordpodcast, where he interviews
some of the nation's topbusiness leaders, entrepreneurs,
and financial commentators todiscuss economics, markets, and
the culture.
(00:40):
David is also an author ofmultiple books, including one
that he just released.
That is primarily what we'rehere to discuss and that book is
called full time work and themeaning of life So david
brother, thank you so much forbeing on the show.
It is truly an honor
David (00:58):
Well, thank you for having me and thank you for the
very kind words.
It's wonderful to be with you.
Jason (01:02):
Hey david before we dive into the book.
I'm curious.
Um, can you talk a little bitabout?
What you're doing nowprofessionally for those that
don't know.
And then how did, how did theLord kind of guide you into that
role through, give us a summaryof your career, maybe a little
bit about your educationalbackground.
David (01:18):
Uh, sure.
So I, uh, run a wealthmanagement firm called the
Bahnsen Group.
Uh, we run about five and a halfbillion dollars.
and prior to this, I ran awealth management practice at
Morgan Stanley, which is alarge, uh, Wall street
investment bank.
And I, left almost 10 years agoto start my own firm.
and so I've been in the wealthmanagement space for about 25
(01:42):
years.
and our offices, uh, we haveseven offices around the
country, but I spend most of mytime going back and forth
between our office in Newportbeach, California.
And New York city.
And so my wife and I have goneback between the two spots.
we have houses in both placesand we go back and forth every
month for over seven years.
(02:04):
So I spent a lot of time on anairplane, but, it's definitely a
bi coastal endeavor and, thenwe've added offices in
Nashville, Austin, Minneapolis,Phoenix, uh, and Bend, Oregon.
And so.
It's a full time gig.
Jason (02:19):
And this is something that you've been involved in
essentially since you finishedyour education.
David (02:23):
Well, I, um, I got into this field when I was 27 years
old and I, had been managingChristian music artists since my
father passed away.
And so I, ended up selling thatbusiness and wishing all the
musicians I worked with all thebest, but more or less vowing to
(02:44):
never talk to another musicianagain.
I've more, more or less keptthat vow.
Jason (02:49):
That is a, that's a big career transition.
David (02:51):
I could go on for hours, but it was, right time in both
situations for the endeavor Iwent into and the endeavor I
moved into.
Jason (02:58):
One of the ideas that you put forward in the book, and I'm
a quote, is that work itself isinherently good, even when
separated from utilitarian orpragmatic ends.
Can you talk a little bit moreabout the theology behind that
idea, David?
David (03:12):
Yeah.
I think that sentence is a greatsummary.
I do not believe that work isimportant only for its
instrumental benefits.
Work is an instrument to dailyprovision.
we do get paychecks and fromthose paychecks pay bills.
we do get, compensated and fromthat compensation give to our
(03:35):
church.
for those who are compensatedwell enough, we might even be
able to be more charitable.
And, as the Lord has blessed memore and more in my business
life, I've been able to fundChristian schools and do other
things, with giving.
And generosity that I think arewonderfully important, but I do
not think they are the point ofthe work.
(03:55):
those transactional benefitsthat flow from the work cannot
be used as the basis forrationalizing the work itself.
The work doesn't needrationalizing because the work
itself is what God actuallycreated us to do.
We are all here caring for thegarden, if you will, and
cultivating it.
(04:16):
That's it.
And, we were made to do this,before sin entered the world at
work was, our very calling andpurpose.
And that continues to this day,even as God redeems us to
Jason (04:28):
Yeah.
One of the other authors that,uh, you and I talked briefly
before I hit record, and Imentioned, he recently wrote a
book as well on the biblicalmandate to work.
And he talks about the firstcommission, in addition to the
great commission, not saying thegreat commission isn't great,
but the first commission was towork and to be fruitful and to
multiply and to subdue theearth.
(04:48):
I saw a lot of that same.
Writing in your book as well.
one of the ideas that you reallypushed back on in your book, is
that we need to suppress ourcareer ambitions.
And disengage from finding anykind of identity in our work.
So, I mean, that was somethingyou really pushed back on that
mindset.
And then yesterday, I read anarticle in the wall street
journal, and it was titledAmericans don't care as much
(05:10):
about work.
And it isn't just Gen Z.
And I wanted to quote one thingthey said, and it was the staff
that they had in there.
And that is, 24 percent ofrespondents to a Pew survey said
their job or occupation was veryimportant to their identity.
So 24 percent in 2021, 17percent did.
So in later surveys, collaboratethis finding.
(05:32):
Now, I think.
That these mindsets have creptinto the church a little bit,
and I really appreciated youspeaking out against those, this
anti work bias that we haveallowed to seep into our
mindset.
And I say ours as the churchbody.
So I'd like for you to kind ofextrapolate a little bit on that
or talk a little bit more aboutyour thoughts on that and why
it's.
It's very destructive.
It's a very destructive mindset.
David (05:53):
Yeah.
And I guess I'm probably even alittle bit more negative than
that because I don't know that.
I think it's creeping into thechurch.
I think it's taken over thechurch and I think it's been
there a long time.
like, I think a lot of the, whatyou read in the wall street
journal, that's creeping intosociety.
reading things in the Atlanticabout people working too hard,
(06:13):
that's creeping into popculture.
But what's been pretty heavilypermeated in pulpits has been
that message on steroids for along time.
And so my point I make in thebook is, you know, we've all
heard the sermon.
Some of us have heard itcountless times, some version
of, Hey, you know, are you Areyou sure you're not working too
(06:34):
much?
are you appropriately balancing,the things that you have to do
at work with all these otherimportant things in your life?
and how many sermons have weever heard about?
Are you sure you're not spendingtoo much time at home?
Are you sure you're not, um,ignoring your responsibilities
for, performing at a high levelin your vocational calling.
I think that the church has beenstruggling with different
(06:56):
versions of this for a longtime.
And so there's a lot of problemsin our society that I view as
the culture going astray and thechurch kind of following.
And in this case, I think it'sworse.
I think the church is sometimeseven leading in a negative way.
Jason (07:11):
Do you think, David, that the first idea we talked about,
this problem of seeing work asjust a means to an end, a very
pragmatic, kind of necessaryevil, do you think that that
then leads to why would I putany more effort into work?
Why do I got to do my work withexcellence?
Why do I have to work any morethan I should?
Need to type of mindset.
(07:32):
Do you think the one comesbefore the other?
David (07:34):
Yeah, I do.
I, but I gotta be honest.
I think a lot of it isgenerational.
that I think there is a Uh, asense in which baby boomers
worked really hard, butportrayed a belief that the hard
work was so that they couldretire.
And they messaged tomillennials, uh, the idea that
(07:55):
the purpose of work was to nothave to do it anymore.
And within, within the church,I, I make an argument that
there's a deeper theologicalexplanation that, out of the
early 20th century.
the church was dealing with,fundamentalism and a pietism and
a cultural retreatism that waslargely the, the chosen,
(08:17):
antidote to, modernism andliberalism and Darwinism and
other bad things that werehappening in the early 20th
century.
And I don't think that it wentreally well for the church.
So in a lot of ways, we've spentthe last 40 years in the church.
undoing some of that retreatismsaying, Hey, we are not happy
(08:39):
with the results of Christiansbeing out of politics.
And so they're reengaging in thecivic realm.
And I think that's a good thing.
And we're really not happy withChristians being out of
education.
And all of a sudden they'vecreated this really robust
homeschool movement andChristian school movement.
And I mean, you're talking aboutmillions and millions of people.
(08:59):
That have come into differentalternate, engagements with
education.
But in the marketplace, theywere just totally unprepared for
the concept of influence anddominion in commercial society.
And I think that, where thefaith and work movement kicked
in 20 plus years ago, it waslargely to just sort of sprinkle
(09:21):
on top.
of various positions ofachievement that Christians and
evangelicals had achieved intheir work.
It was to sort of sprinkle ontop, you know, some tools for
evangelism and things like that.
Soul saving.
Jason (09:36):
in in the workplace Yeah,
David (09:38):
in the workplace.
but never to actually teach, theidea that our efforts in
technology or agriculture ormanufacturing or finance or
entrepreneurialism or media orwhat have you were inerrantly
important as kingdom work.
And that's, to me, The task thatwe have to take on
Jason (09:57):
that's key.
That's like at the root of it.
I think David.
What's your response to thosewho would say?
Well, what about workaholics andpeople that work too much and
sacrifice their family?
I mean, you spoke of that, Ithink, really well in the book.
I'd like to get your thoughts onit here a little bit.
David (10:14):
Yeah.
You know, I, I think that it canhappen.
I, the first thing I would sayis I don't think it happens very
much.
And so I hate to set normativesand biases and.
predominant lines of thinkingaround things that are the
exception, not the rule.
In some cases, it flat out isalmost equivalent to giving a
(10:38):
whole sermon to warn peopleabout the dangers of tidal waves
in Kansas.
when I look at the state ofYoung men in the culture, prime
working age men that right nowhave the same, level of
employment that they did in thegreat depression.
only we have almost fullyemployed society now.
(10:59):
Okay.
So the difference is peoplevoluntarily removing themselves
in between the ages of 29 and 54years old from the labor
participation force.
So they don't show up asunemployed because they're not
employed or looking for work.
Therefore they're notunemployed.
That is a major sociologicaltrend where the labor
(11:20):
participation forces has shrunkby 14 million people in the last
16 years.
And the prime area in which itis shrunk is in a prime working
age demographic and the femalesare no lower than they were.
It's entirely
Jason (11:36):
Men.
Yeah.
David (11:37):
giving a sermon about that man who's workaholic, I
just find to be very bizarre.
if someone wants to give me asermon, About how to behave well
when I'm in the locker room withmy NBA teammates Then I'll take
the sermon to heart, but I gottabe honest I don't think i'm
going to make an NBA teamanytime soon So it would be a
(11:57):
really silly sermon to givebecause it doesn't apply to my
context Now all that to sayobviously there are people that
could treat their work as anidol And the point I make, and I
have a whole chapter about thisin the book, as you know, is
that God is against allidolatry.
Not merely the idol of work.
(12:17):
I don't believe there's thatmany people, that make work
their idol, but I think thereare people that avoid their
family.
But what is the sin in thatconstruct?
Is the sin The working too hardor is the sin ignoring one's
family and the way I phrase itto someone is pretend You're a
believer and you have a friendwho's not a believer and they
(12:40):
have a significant problem withdrugs And then they become a
Christian and you say to them,you know, you got to quit doing
the drugs.
Now, this is part of a life ofdiscipleship of new faith.
This, this old habit has to go.
And everyone would say, ofcourse, you know, this guy's
become a Christian needs to putaside the womanizing or the drug
(13:00):
abuse or something like that.
I go, okay, now I want you topretend you have an unsaved
friend.
And he works at a private equitycompany or a law firm and he
works really hard and he's sogood at what he does He's
committed.
He's dedicated and now hebecomes a christian.
What does he have to get rid ofnow?
Maybe his motivations need tochange maybe his tithing habits
(13:25):
need to be nourished anddeveloped maybe you know, some
of the bedside manner and how hedoes his job might be a little
different But do we need to tellhim or her to get rid of their
old life?
But see, we treat it like theydo.
We treat it like, like the drugproblem for an unbeliever and
the work problem are the samething.
But they're not.
(13:46):
So I'm against anyone ignorestheir family because I'm against
ignoring one's family.
I'm not against ignoring one'sfamily because I'm against work.
Jason (13:53):
One of the things that you talked about also in the
book, David, and has, helped me,in my thinking, and you, you
already hit on this, but again,that labor participation rate
and that, that, you know, thatwhole, uh, and I'm gonna quote
one of what, one of thestatistics you were just talking
about, but that was the, thework rate for Prime age men in
this last decade is lower thanit was in the Great Depression.
And you, again, you just saidthat, but I think people really
(14:16):
need to understand.
that's real right now.
that's how bad it is.
What would you say that thatmeans for those of us that are
hiring managers?
I think about myself in this.
So I'm responsible for a teamand a workplace.
A lot of my podcast audience istheir business leaders across a
variety of industries.
(14:38):
And we have, A decade or two orthree ahead of us probably in
which we're going to be tryingto recruit and retain people.
I think that what we used to doin the last 20 or 30 years to do
that has to dramatically changebecause of this fact that one of
the other statistics that youpresented was that if the labor
(14:58):
participation rate.
Was the same now as it was in2000, there would be 10 million
more people out in theworkforce.
I live in Michigan.
That's the population of myentire state.
Every man, woman, and child.
They vanished from the workforcein 20, 24 short years.
how do we, uh, Approach hiringand recruiting practices now
(15:20):
differently than we have in thepast.
I mean, you just don't, there's10 million less people out there
and it's not going to changeanytime soon.
I don't think, I don't know ifyou see a time in the next 10
years that it's going todramatically get better.
David (15:31):
Well, the cultural phenomena that will have to
drive people back to work isjust that it's a cultural
phenomena.
number one issue here and itrequires me to explain it a
little bit so people don'tmisunderstand.
But people have to feel shame.
Jason (15:49):
Yeah.
David (15:50):
There's no shame in it right now.
Jason (15:52):
There's pride.
I think there's pride in it.
David (15:55):
absolutely.
And, and so it was the subjectof my very first book, which was
called crisis of responsibility,our cultural addiction to blame
and how you can cure it.
And it was about the financialcrisis of 2008.
And I made the point that itwasn't just that we had a moment
in which millions of people whocould afford to keep paying for
(16:17):
their house, Chose to give thekeys back for their house.
It was that we had millions ofpeople who did that and didn't
feel any shame about it at all.
They could go to the bar onFriday night and brag about it.
And I think that was a really,really sudden and awful shift in
the culture.
From like in the greatdepression, you had a very high
(16:39):
amount of unemployment.
But people paid their bills andthey felt shame and being
unemployed even when theyshouldn't, when it wasn't their
fault, when they were tryingtheir best, when they were
waiting in bread lines, whenthey were waiting for day labor
and manual labor.
But there was this sense ofpride, like a man pays his
bills.
A man gets up and goes to work.
(16:59):
And we got to a point wherethat, fabric is torn apart.
So yeah, there's economic thingsthat will change.
There's just variousparadigmatic shifts that will
happen.
you know, we, we live off of acertain borrowed prosperity to a
certain degree in a lot of ways.
But fundamentally the culturewill have to get to a point
where it's just unacceptable fora 32 year old to act like a
(17:22):
child,
Jason (17:24):
I pray that, that, that we see that in our lifetime.
I just, again, I fear I'veprobably got 15, 20 years of
high level engagement of workingand I think that until I I'm out
of the workforce at the levelI'm at now.
I won't use the term retireanymore.
After I read your book, I'mthinking differently about that.
We'll talk about that in aminute, but I, you know, I think
that that's just going to be a,you have to look at things very
(17:45):
differently as a hiring managerand someone who's responsible
for recruiting and retainingpeople.
It's just, it's very different.
And I work in manufacturing andso I'm dealing with trades and
the trades graph and all the,fun stuff that comes along with
the fact that we've gutted ourtrade schools for the last.
20 years and now nobody knowshow to do that.
And, you know, we have thesehuge gaps and what we're willing
(18:07):
to bring people on and pay andwho's out there and can do it,
or even wants to do it.
I can tell you stories about,you know, bringing kids in on an
apprenticeship program, they hada full ride basically with us.
And they lasted four or five,six weeks and said, nah, it's
not for me and walked out youhave one chapter devoted to
money and ambition.
Yeah.
Uh, I think the church, we tendto see two extremes.
I think, again, this is myperspective, uh, David, But, uh,
(18:29):
yeah.
I see that we tend to be there,we think there's a hyper focus
on money and wealth, which canlead to the prosperity gospel,
which is an absolute falseteaching, that creeps into the
church.
I won't say it's in the churchbecause I believe that's outside
of, orthodoxy and it's not atrue church, but that, you know,
impacts, uh, Christians.
And then the other extreme isbeing fearful.
(18:49):
Of wealth and ambition, becausewe don't want it to become an
idol, but it's just this, almostthis, stay away.
I can't even allow somemotivation internally of, Hey,
you know what, I do want tobuild wealth and yes, to provide
for my family, but.
To also provide for the kingdomwork and to build bigger
businesses and to buildhealthier businesses and to
(19:10):
sustain that work that has thatinherent value that you've
already talked about.
David (19:14):
Yeah, I'm vehemently opposed to prosperity gospel.
What's interesting is that it isusually set up as, uh, there's
people who don't understand theimportance of money.
And then there's people thatunderstand money too much or
think money's too big apriority.
And I don't think that the errorof the prosperity gospel is that
they put too much of a focus onmoney.
It's just that what theybelieve, it simply ain't true
(19:36):
that there is this embeddedpromise in scripture that God
wants you to have thesedifferent things.
there is a high level, incentivestructure that one who lays in
bed all day will go poor and onewho works hard will not.
but there is, market pricing,you know, one could work very,
very hard as a philosophyprofessor.
And they're subject to thesubjective values that exist in
(19:59):
terms of taste and preferencesand market worth.
that is, is a by product of anorganically created price
discovery system and supply anddemand.
And then one can create a newhit movie with Brad Pitt and
they're going to, I think,probably make a little more
money than the philosophyteacher.
And neither of those things haveanything to do with, that the
(20:20):
Brad Pitt movie is more valuablethan a philosophy professor.
It has to do with economicpricing, and the prosperity
gospel kind of acts as if pricediscovery doesn't exist and that
God has revealed a certain willthat he has never revealed.
But what I, what I go to greatlengths in chapter five of the
book to point out is that thebulk of the people that are
(20:41):
talking about, you know, look,you really shouldn't be going to
work to, to climb the ladder,make more money, that the bulk
of people who say it are sayingit in what is charitably called
a pharisaical context, that theyare doing so from the vantage
point of being in a position ofsome degree of economic comfort.
(21:04):
Freedom.
Now, their conveniences may notbe yachts and Mercedes and
private planes and things likethat, but they have achieved a
certain status that affords themthe lifestyle they want to have,
and then have decided anythingabove that lifestyle is
magically the point at which itbecomes sinful or problematic.
(21:27):
That is not the way it works.
get to set your own baseline.
Um, if one believes materialsuccess and earthly comforts are
inerrantly sinful, which is nothistorically, the belief in
Christian theology and certainlynot in the Protestant tradition,
but if one believes those thingsare wrong, they don't become
(21:50):
wrong at the level.
number of 93, 000 a year, youknow, that, 200, 000 is wrong,
but, uh, 94, 000 is okay.
Or something of that nature.
the notion of what passes forfinancially excessive is very
different geographically aswell.
most poor people around theworld would be utterly mystified
(22:13):
by these conversations.
That, it is, wrong to be workingfor and, and trying to achieve a
greater life for oneself is nota memo.
that most people have gotten.
The people who come up with thatare generally doing so divorced
from a worldview that actuallyprovides a standard.
Well, the standard in scriptureis that we never under any
(22:36):
circumstances forfeit ourgratitude.
And forget blessings come from.
But that there is a dollaramount that is okay and a dollar
amount that is not okay is not averse in my scripture.
So the prosperity gospel shouldbe rejected because it, affirms
things that are utterlyunaffirmable.
But phariseeism should beavoided because Jesus rebuked it
(23:01):
time and time again.
Jason (23:01):
I really appreciated the example you gave in that chapter
on that that you know What'sthat magic number because I I've
probably been guilty of it Iknow I've been in those
conversations where it's likewell in in essence, you know
people that make whatever upperupper middle class That's okay
but Boy, these people that areX, that's not, well, that's Y,
you know, again, it's inherentlywhere their heart is, not
(23:24):
necessarily a number.
So I appreciated that, uh,rebuke.
David (23:28):
I will say, I will say this too.
What's interesting is a lot ofthe people that believe like a
billion dollars of wealth isexcessive and perverse, and they
might have a couple milliondollars.
And what's really interesting ishow much naivete there is.
When you look at the very smallnumber, it's a few thousand
people in the world that have abillion dollars or more of net
(23:50):
worth.
And if one wants to believe it'swrong to have ever accumulated
it, I think it has to be wrongto have accumulated it if you
did something wrong toaccumulate it.
I think there's a lot morepeople that accumulated 5, 000
the wrong way than there are whoaccumulated 5 billion the wrong
way.
we can pretend that we're downon people just for having a
(24:10):
billion dollars that we want.
But you know, if people want tobe really clear about it, the
Elon Musk and Jeff Bezos havenot been motivated by money.
For a very long time now youcould disagree with what they're
motivated by and oftentimes Itcould be very narcissistic and
delusional But like if you lookat musk as an example, he's not
(24:31):
a person I particularly like ordislike.
I don't really care But let'sjust be clear I mean he had
achieved enough money to livemore than any very very few
people would ever have whenpaypal sold And he believed that
carbon and, fossil fuels, fromcombustion engines was a threat
to the planet.
(24:51):
And he created Tesla from whichhe obviously made tens of
billions of dollars.
but his motive was this massiveclimate objective.
And then what is the deal withSpaceX?
He wants to have people occupyother planets.
And what's the deal withTwitter?
He wanted to defend free
Jason (25:09):
Yup.
Yup.
David (25:10):
Like this is hardly like I want to get a new Mercedes
type of stuff, or show off a newbeach house.
there's a certain, aspirationfor truly gifted entrepreneurial
people that I have absolutely nointerest in putting a handcuff
on.
Let alone making up apharisaical interpretation of
scripture to do so.
(25:30):
these are people that arecreating significant wealth for
society.
And I think anyone being honestknows that the reason that
they're demonized is rankcovetousness.
It needs to stop.
Jason (25:42):
appreciated the challenge.
it was good to think through andyour, arguments are clear and
the right, uh, anothercontroversial topic that I
really appreciated and it'shelping me to change my own
thinking.
I mentioned this a little bitearlier.
I'm going to quote, one of thethings that you said is the
American ideal of retirement.
And so you said, and I quote, Ifpublic posturing and marketing
(26:03):
campaigns are to be believed,the modern purpose of work can
be defined thus.
Work is what you do so thateventually you won't have to do
it anymore.
And then you said, no thanks.
So I would like to talk a littlebit about that because I will
say, David, I think absolutely,especially as believers, that we
(26:25):
should not have that mindset,but also, and I think you
addressed this really well inthe book, is that we also
understand, I think people dounderstand that there is
probably a certain level ofperformance.
That you can achieve in your 40sand 50s and maybe 60s and maybe
70s in a certain field that youwon't continue to be able to
(26:46):
achieve, especially again formy, my brothers and sisters at
work in the trades, right?
I mean, if you're a millwrightand a pipe fitter, okay, you're
probably not going to do thatinto your 80s.
But if you do.
God bless you.
But even for those of us thatare in administrative functions,
I think you really talked reallywell about how to think about
that.
So I want to just, I want tohear your thoughts on retirement
(27:07):
and why we have a broken, alittle bit lazy, maybe I'd call
it lazy mindset towards that,because it also goes in the face
of what we said earlier, thatwork has inherent value.
And if it does, we shouldn't beworking to avoid working.
you
David (27:20):
Well, but see, that's the whole point is that it comes
down to mentality.
And so as I've gone around thecountry, since the book came out
speaking on this, and I've done,you know, well over a hundred
interviews and podcasts andwhatnot, it's a perfectly fair
question, but I do proactivelyaddress it in the book.
I'm not saying that theconstruction worker who's out in
(27:42):
the hot sun for 40 yearsworking, that when they're 78
years old, they should still bedoing that exact same level of
work.
Perhaps it does morph intosomething that's more
supervisory, something moreconsultative and maybe their
physical capacity continues toallow certain things.
Maybe it does not.
(28:03):
There's gotta be an agent stage.
Flexibility the principle is allI'm caring about here And the
principle is exactly you justsaid that it we do not approach
work with the mentality that thepurpose of it is To not do it
anymore and the notion that weare trying to get ourselves to a
point of achieving a 25 yearVacation, um, removal from
(28:26):
productive activity.
Now, someone says I can nolonger chase down bad guys.
I was a, uh, a street cop and Ican't go chase down hooligans.
I think that is perfectlyacceptable, understandable
mentality.
Maybe they wanna consult for aprivate security company.
Maybe they wanna mentor cops orbe involved in the training and
(28:50):
development program.
I don't know the nuances of whatgoes into that law enforcement
aspect, but there's very, veryfew industries, very few where
there's no role.
Jason (29:01):
Yeah.
David (29:02):
for the people who have the most experience and
expertise in the work.
And so the general principle isjust simply not evolving into a
life where there is no longerany useful activity.
And so the most common retort ispeople saying they agree with
me.
But then I got to be carefulbecause they go, no, no, no, no,
no.
I agree.
(29:22):
I don't want to just be golfingall day long.
That's why I volunteered forthis board.
We have a board meeting everyquarter.
I go work at my church, Saturdaymornings or something.
And I, I say, okay, I don't wantto talk you out of nice
charitable service.
Hopefully you're, they'regetting some value out of what
you're doing and hopefully it'sfilling your cup a little, but
(29:43):
you know, trying to sprinkle alittle bit of nice sounding
virtuous activities on top of alife of jet setting and golfing
and whatnot.
That's not really what I meaneither, because the problem is.
That person doesn't have anyidea what they're doing,
building orphanages in Mexico.
(30:05):
What they knew was that theywere practicing law for 40 years
and now they're not.
And why do we want them notmentoring young lawyers or
coming in the office a couple ofdays a week and providing a
little oversight?
So I think that the point I makein the book is that it hurts
them to be removed from aposition of useful activity.
(30:28):
It hurts me.
As a Gen X er running a businessthat we have this lack of
leadership and seniority acrossvarious industries and sectors
of the economy as we lose 10,000 baby boomers a day.
Out of the workforce, but thenit hurts Gen Z and Gen Y,
especially Gen Z, who is, beingdeprived of grownup mentorship
(30:53):
and senior veteran leadership.
Jason (30:56):
I will give you a very specific example of where I see
this.
And I think you did a reallygood job of that last point
saying you by leaving theworkforce have deprived others
coming in of learning from you.
And oh, by the way.
You got to learn from somebodyelse when you came in.
So just don't forget that.
And so I have right now, in thefacility that I work, we have
(31:21):
our youngest apprentice is 20, Ithink he's 22, 21, 23, he's
young.
And we have a gentleman whoworks part time for us, who.
Came through the trades, knowsmultiple trades.
He's the guy is unbelievablyknowledge, but he works three
days a week and he's, older thanme.
you could retire, but he comesin and works and helps and
(31:42):
supports us.
And I love it when I see himwork with that young apprentice,
because I'm like, literallyevery minute he's working with
this young guy.
he's learning so much more thananything.
He's going to go, he does hisschoolwork.
He does all that.
That's important, but it makesme feel happy every time I walk
by those two.
It really does see those guystalking.
there is a conference coming upthat you're involved in, At the
(32:03):
end of June, this podcast willrelease Lord willing on June 1st
is my plan.
And I think it's exciting to seethings like this start to come
around.
I think there's some momentum inthis movement, I'll call it.
And so would you like to talkDavid a little bit about that?
Uh, the work based conferenceand what's going on there,
what's going to be discussed andwe'll link to it in the show
(32:26):
notes and let people know howthey can, how they can go if
they'd like to.
David (32:29):
well, sure.
I mean, I'm one of the speakersat the conference and I believe
that they have a few other,speakers.
I know a couple of them that,that are really like minded on
the subject, attempting.
to plug in resources forbusiness leaders, for business
owners, for people that aretrying to wrestle with these
issues about the theologicalsignificance of work.
(32:51):
I'm fond of some of the pastorsproviding leadership into this
conference, and I think it'sgoing to be a big event.
And so I'm excited to be a partof it.
I can't, say exactly what allthe other speakers are going to
be getting into, but I know thatmy role, I'm doing a panel and
giving a speech and I intend toreally unpack, I think the
beauty of this message,connected to creational norms,
(33:15):
which I think is extremely, uh,important here, theologically.
Jason (33:19):
we'll link to their website where you can learn more
about the speakers.
a few more questions that arereally, they're questions that I
asked all my guests.
As I told you earlier, this isthis podcast.
It's really around.
Christian business leadership inthe workplace.
And so I know obviously you're abusiness leader.
You founded your organization.
You've been in leadership for along time.
So I have a couple of questionsaround that I'd like to ask you
(33:40):
that we could learn from whenyou think about leadership,
David, In the work that you do,what is your, what's your core
model?
What's your kind of coreprinciple when it comes to
leading, your team and yourorganization?
David (33:52):
Well, I think that, um, it is a, like many elements of
the Christian life.
I don't know that it's reducibleto a model.
I think that there areprinciples, first principles
that I would apply to the wayyou want to live in a certain
sphere and, uh, the way you wantto be as a person.
(34:12):
And when I think of myself as aleader, in my business.
the first principle that alwayscomes to mind is one that most
people say they agree with,which is, modeling the things
you believe in.
not so much talking about whatothers you want that you're
leading to do, but doing thosethings.
it's an important part ofleadership to me.
(34:34):
That I not adopted do as I say,not as I do approach.
I say this with all humility.
I have 63 employees in mycompany and I think 62 of the B
I'm counting myself.
62 people I think would say thatthey view me as the hardest
working person at the company.
Now I got some really hardworkers there, but I, I strive
(34:56):
as a leader very much.
To model the sacrifice and theoutput that I want.
And there's other areas where Imess up, where I make mistakes,
where I'm not modeling what Iwant to for others.
But you know, a leader, I thinkstarts by earning the, respect
of others that they want tofollow you.
(35:18):
And for me, that, respect comesfrom, living it out yourself,
getting in the trenches, gettingyour hands dirty, not operating
in a prima donna ish fashion.
another key principle that Ireally can't say enough about
is, conviction.
a leader cannot be one who,suffers from, the paralysis of
(35:38):
analysis.
You have to make decisions.
And we live with what ThomasSowell referred to in Conflict
of Visions as, under aconstrained vision of society.
I don't think we can get thingsperfect.
I don't think we can.
That there is economiccalculation, available that will
(36:01):
help me get everything right.
So I accept a margin of error,try to make the best decision I
can with the right discernment,the right data, the right,
deliberation, but then havingconviction and going forward and
you pivot when you need to
Jason (36:18):
Yup.
David (36:18):
But this is a huge element of leadership is people
that scapegoat people afraid tomake a decision.
it's not the kind of leadershipI think we're called to.
And so I feel very strongly thatpeople need to have conviction.
And those are a couple of thekey components.
I could go on and
Jason (36:33):
No, I appreciate that, man.
Uh, you're speaking my language,especially on the, well, on both
of them, but I am wired to besomeone who sometimes shoots
first and ask questions later.
And it fits me well inoperations, but you know, I've
told my team many times, like,give me an 85 percent solution.
Because I made the mistake Ihave in team members who are,
especially engineers.
And I love my engineers that Iwork with, but they can
(36:54):
overanalyze the stuff.
Right.
And I want all the data and allthe inputs.
And I ain't got time for that,man.
Give me something that's goingto get us close, pull the
trigger and move to the nextthing.
So, no, I love that beingdecisive and, you know, coming
up with, coming up with the bestinformation you've gotten and
moving on.
Hey, uh, and this may tie intowhat we just talked about,
David, but let's say you hadsomebody who's, a mentee of
(37:15):
yours and they came to you andsaid, Hey David, I just got my
first promotion as a teamsupervisor or department
manager.
You're not first entry levelleadership position.
I want to sit down and I'm goingto have a cup of coffee with you
and get some advice.
Like what do I do in my firstmonth on the job?
What advice would you give them?
What approach?
David (37:33):
Well, again, I mean, those, those things are always
hard to answer just because itdepends on the situation, the
context, the industry, thegeography, the type of job, the
age and experience of theperson.
there's just so many differentvariables.
And, you know, I think ifsomeone's coming to me, they
probably want micro advice, notmacro advice, but from a macro
(37:54):
principle, I kind of think Iwant to write a book on this
someday.
my, You know, uh, 89 principlesof, of, uh, approaching a job
or, or business life in generalor whatnot, but like, if you're,
if someone's just looking forthe most high level of macro
principles to say, I'm, I'mentering X, Y, Z industry to go
do ABC work, any, any words ofwisdom.
(38:17):
I, it really is, I think about atenacity and a grit and a
resilience.
They just, it's a messy worldand things don't go the way you
want.
And it could be a coworker andit could be a customer and it
could be a boss and it could bean underling, but just having
the ability to overcome thethings that don't go the way you
want to being flexible to workthrough tough situations.
(38:38):
And I think most people failbecause they do not have the
fortitude to get through things,not going the way they want.
You gotta take a
Jason (38:47):
Yeah, I love the grid idea.
It's absolutely true.
You just gotta keep coming backfor more.
Sometimes you just gotta keepcoming back for another punch in
the face, man, and keep comingat it if you want two last
questions for you, brother.
anyone else you'd recommend tobe able to come on my podcast,
someone who's a, you know, justa business leader who loves the
Lord and, uh, excels as a leaderin the workplace has a couple of
(39:09):
decades behind them ofexperience that they could come
and share with others on, uh,good
David (39:14):
Yeah.
I mean, obviously I know, I knowa lot of business leaders.
I'd be happy to put together afew names, ideas.
One person, I would just throwout there from a Christian
worldview standpoint that Ithink the world of is my friend,
Jerry Boyer.
I don't know if you've had himbefore or not.
He wrote a book, that reallyexegetes, much of the new
Testament brilliantly,economically called the maker
and the takers and Jerry's,consultancy firm, Boyer
(39:38):
research, Is, on retainer at myfirm because we use them for a
lot of shareholder engagement wedo.
but Jerry's been, doing some ofthese types of business
initiatives in corporate Americafor 30 years.
And, is a really effective andworldview minded believer.
I can't say enough good stuffabout Jerry and his work.
Jason (39:58):
Thank you.
No, I appreciate that.
I really do.
last thing is, what's the bestway for people to follow you,
get in touch with you?
I mean, you're all over outthere, which is great.
Every time I'll say this, David,literally, and I mean this every
time I hear you speak, or Iwrite what you have written.
And I really mean that you havehelped me in a lot of ways
around financial, economic data,just cultural So what's the best
(40:20):
way for people to follow alongand learn from you?
David (40:23):
Well, first of all, that's extremely kind of you.
and I really appreciate it.
That encourages me a lot.
I think just for simplicitysake, I'll direct people to the
books website because it's suchan easy web address, full time
book.
com.
book, all one word.
com and then from there it haslinks to other stuff on my
(40:44):
investment writing and you know,other, resources and whatnot
that I have out there, but italso just will give people a lot
of great content around thebook, audio clips, video clips,
reviews, articles, differentthings about this message about
work and the meaning of life.
And so full time book.
com.
And from there, there's, uh,other, you know, ways to stay in
(41:06):
touch.
Jason (41:07):
Yeah, and I'm going to link to as many of those as I
know about in the show notes sopeople can follow along.
And yeah, I know you're on, youhave your own podcast, you host
another podcast, so and DividendCafe and all that.
So we'll get that out there.
Hey, thank you, David.
Man, again, what an honor thatyou said yes to come on my show.
a couple of brothers, that I goto church with are world and
(41:27):
everything in it, faithfullisteners.
And when I told them That yousaid, yes, they're like, are you
serious?
David Bahnsen, man, what's yourshow becoming?
So just, uh, not a lot to me.
So thank you for it.
And I can't wait to get this outthere.
It'll come out on June 1st andhopefully be helped to people.
Please go buy the book.
It's a great book.
I read it within a week.
(41:48):
Absolutely impactful.
So thank you, David.
Appreciate it, man.
David (41:52):
Well, thank you very much.
Much appreciated.
Yeti Nano (41:54):
And thank you all for tuning in once again, to hear
from a thought leader who ishelping us all to more
purposefully work and lead forGod's glory and the advancement
of his kingdom.
I look forward to being backtogether again next month.
Until then may God bless you inyour work for his glory.
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