In today's episode, I speak with New York Times Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist Ian Urbina. Ian’s investigate journalism about the intersection of the human species and the lawless frontier of the open ocean, most often appears in the new york times, but he frequently writes for the Atlantic and the New Yorker, and culminated in his Times bestseller, “The Outlaw Ocean."
Most often, the people I speak with in this show have a deep passion for the ocean itself and somehow deviate their lives to it. What was intersection about Ian, and why I reached out, was for a slightly different perspective, in particular how the ocean itself shapes human beings, particularly the culture and nature of those who work and live their lives on the open seas.
Most of this takes place in International waters, starting just 12 miles offshore, where no country’s laws are in effect and there is no real jurisdiction protecting workers such as fishermen or long haul cargo shippers, nor the world’s marine life.
Ian readily admits his work trawls darker areas of the human experience as he works to expose the hidden exploitation of sea workers and the ocean environment. But I also found Ian to be a very smart and incredibly warm person, who talked about his path to the work he does, why “here be dragons” resonated with him and an incredible moment in the north Atlantic when the world turned upside down for him.
Scuba Diving, Free Diving, Ocean Environmentalism, Surfing, and Marine Science.
Please give us ★★★★★, leave a review, and tell your friends about us as each share and like makes a difference.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:09):
Hi and welcome to the Big Deep podcast.
Big Deep is a podcast aboutpeople who have a connection to
the ocean, people for whom thatconnection is so strong it
defines some aspect of theirlife.
Over the course of this series,we'll talk to all sorts of
people and in each episode we'llexplore the deeper meaning of
(00:30):
that connection.
Today, i speak with a PulitzerPrize-winning investigative
journalist whose work has takenhim deep into the darker realms
of what he calls the OutlawOcean.
Hello, this is your host, jasonElias.
Welcome to the Big Deep podcast.
In today's episode, i speakwith New York Times Pulitzer
(00:55):
Prize-winning journalist, ianUrbina.
Ian's investigative journalismfocuses on the intersection of
the human species and thelawless frontier of the open
ocean.
His work most often appears inthe New York Times, but he
frequently writes for TheAtlantic and The New Yorker,
culminating in his New YorkTimes bestseller, the Outlaw
Ocean.
(01:15):
The people I speak with in thisshow most often have a deep
passion for the oceanenvironment and dedicate their
lives to it in some way.
What was interesting about Ianand why he reached out was for a
slightly different perspective,particularly around how the
ocean shapes human culture andthe nature of those who work and
live their lives on it, andthis can be a dark place.
Most of this takes place ininternational waters, starting
(01:38):
just 12 miles offshore, where nocountry's laws are in effect
and there is no realjurisdiction protecting workers
such as fishermen or long-haulcargo shippers, nor the world's
marine life.
Ian readily admits his worktrawls hidden areas of the human
experience as he works toexpose the exploitation of both
ocean workers and theenvironment itself.
And yet I found Ian to be anincredibly warm person who
(02:02):
talked about his path to thework he does, why the blank
spaces on a map resonated withhim, and an incredible moment in
the North Atlantic when theworld turned upside down.
Speaker 2 (02:12):
My name is Ian Urbina , i'm a journalist and I focus
on crimes at sea, especiallyhuman rights, environmental and
labor abuses that occur on theocean around the world.
Speaker 1 (02:23):
You've obviously made your career focused on ocean
issues.
When did you first realize yourconnection to the ocean and how
did that manifest?
Speaker 2 (02:32):
I never grew up on the water in any real way, but
whenever I would encounter a mapof the world, i would always
look at the blue and thefarthest off specks in the blue
and wonder what is that placelike?
What's it like to be a teenagerthere?
How do you get there?
What if planes don't come everyweek?
There's just lots of questionsabout the people that live so
(02:53):
remotely in that watery desert,and that was the extent of my
enamorment with the ocean.
The real exposure came when Iwas doing doctoral work at the
University of Chicago, one coldwinter and I decided to take
several months off and take ajob to be a deckhand on a
research vessel anchored inSingapore.
We never left port and so I wasliving on this boat and for
(03:22):
those three months I wasspending a lot of time with
seafarers.
These were long-haul fishermen,tuna, long-liner Indonesian
deckhands all the way up toGeraldo Rivera's super yacht.
So it was like a really mixedbunch.
I anthropologically becameentranced by those people,
almost like a diaspora,transient tribe of people.
(03:45):
They had everything that atribe has.
They had their own language,their own stories, their own
hierarchy, their own rules,their own customs, their own
relationship with time and theirown crime.
What I saw in these guysdeckhands or yachtsmen or
merchant marine was this love ofliving apart from everyone else
(04:06):
, a sort of antisocial element,a sense of daring, but also
internal exploration of survivaland possibly long periods of
quiet and going to these extremeedges of civilization and maybe
even beyond, and then stayingthere.
How do they survive and howthose realms affect their mental
(04:28):
health and worldview.
I always wanted to be JaneGoodall growing up, and when I
look back on why, it wasn't herinteraction with animals, it was
her exploration of these faroff worlds, and to some degree I
see the oceans as the extremeversion of that.
It is space travel on earth.
(04:50):
It is this realm that isawe-inspiring and scary and
mystical and utterly different.
A friend of mine defined theword sublime as a combination of
profound and fraught, bothbeautiful and fearful.
That which is sublime holds inboth balances.
My outlook on that place isthat it is truly sublime.
(05:14):
It's one of the most intenseforms of sublime I've
encountered.
That attracted me.
That space challenges you inways that I really respected and
that's what motivated me, onceI was at the New York Times, to
write about them again.
Speaker 1 (05:27):
So you were a cultural anthropologist when you
went to Singapore and then youbecame a journalist later on in
life.
What does it you find sointeresting about exploring
those subterranean channels thatdrive human society,
particularly on the ocean?
And then why do you feel theneed to share that with others?
Speaker 2 (05:45):
So when I went to grad school I was in the history
department.
I was going to do what's calledintellectual history.
I was super interested in thehistory of ideas When I was
wanting to do my specialty onthe concept of human nature and
what makes us tick.
I'd feel like the explorationof the outlaw ocean is
anthropologically an attempt tochronicle this tribe of people
(06:08):
from whom you rarely hear inthis space where few people go.
But it's also an exploration ofa deep structure to what makes
us tick and quite especially theline between civilization and
the lack of it.
What I'm exploring the darkerside of this tribe and its
behaviors is to some degreequintessential public service
investigative journalism.
I want to reveal bad stuffthat's happening so it can get
(06:30):
fixed.
That's what you do as aninvestigative journalist.
But I'm also trying to minethose stories for something
deeper.
It's all against this beautiful, awe-inspiring backdrop, but
most of what I focus on is notbeautiful or awe-inspiring.
It's quite the underbelly andit's really man's in humanity
demand and why he is napping upthere, and it adds up to a call
(06:52):
for better governance.
We as animals really needenforceables on us and the
outlaw ocean is in some ways thespace where we don't have real,
true governance.
Speaker 1 (07:02):
I'm a collector and lover of antiquarian maps and I
have a number of maps in myhouse from the 17th and 18th
century that show parts of theworld carved up by the colonial
powers and then blank areas onthe map that simply indicate a
place where no Western societyis yet.
What's interesting, and basedon what you're saying, is that
(07:23):
in this time where we thinkeverything is connected, you're
actually saying there are largeparts of the world that are not,
that are still those blankplaces on the map, and they
simply start 12 miles offshorein the international waters.
Speaker 2 (07:36):
On those maps I mentioned in the book.
It's like here be dragons.
I'm so enamored with that.
Here be dragons on these oldmaps.
That's just way out there andwe're not sure what's out there.
That is the emblem of theoutlaw ocean In this moment,
(07:57):
when we think everything hasbeen mapped, there are no new
stories, there's no place thatno one's gone with.
Our handheld devices kind ofknow everything.
It's all filmed, so not true?
All of that is not true.
Huge swaths of the planet,millions of people completely
off radar, and I think that'sone of the things that make this
(08:18):
reporting really attractive tome.
I was really interested in howthe experience of ocean travel,
especially long periods of it,maybe even a lifetime of it, can
change a person in their core.
I would go across thecategories.
(08:40):
It changes your biology.
There's sea sickness and landsickness, and land sickness is
the pendulum and your ear won'treadjust when you come back on
land.
And what's interesting is a lotof people that don't let sea
sick do get land sick.
The experience of getting landsickness it's like drunken
(09:01):
bedspins standing up.
You feel everything's movingand it's often called sway.
Sometimes you even startcounter swaying.
People are like why are yourocking And some people don't
even ever readjust.
So it's amazing that just beingin this realm, where the
physics are different, canchange your inner biology.
(09:23):
I think it changes yourpsychology And I saw this with
myself.
The stereotype of the scraggly,grumpy fish captain is based on
something true.
My theory is that thatarchetype character is someone
who's been out there so long Andthe out there is a self-imposed
(09:47):
solitary confinement.
By having spent such longperiods in places that are so
quiet, so little communicationbetween people, their
relationship with light andsound and spaces has changed.
They come back on shore andthey don't let go of their lives
.
They come back on shore andthey don't adjust.
(10:08):
When you're at sea, everythingis regimented in a different
sort of way.
You go out into this realm andyou realize you're divorced from
so many things.
You can't internet, you can'temail or text with people for
long periods and not even surewhat day it is and kind of know
(10:29):
roughly what time it is, and youstart having deeper
conversations in your head.
There's a part in the bookwhere I talk about what one guy
referred to as soul whispers Inmy normal life.
Here at best I maybe have athree sentence conversation with
(10:49):
myself in my head.
When I'm at sea, i can be atfor two hours quietly staring
off into space, having a full onconversation with myself.
It's beautiful but it'sdangerous.
That's how life on land is like, but these are ways in which I
(11:12):
do think people change.
Speaker 1 (11:21):
There's obviously something about the intersection
of the ocean, environment andhumanity that you find very
appealing and that you likeexploring what impact that
environment has on human society, human culture, human beings
themselves, but outside, someonewho has an interest in that?
why should everyone else careabout the outlaw ocean?
Speaker 2 (11:43):
I think the cliche but no less true answer is you
know you're not going to be ableto get into the ocean has to be
said at some basic moral level.
If you think of yourself as ahuman and therefore you do care
about other humans, even ifthey're different color, class,
nationality and far away.
If really bad things arehappening to other humans or
(12:05):
green life, then just on anethical level you probably
should care.
But if that doesn't move you,then there's a sort of
self-interested, utilitarian,practical level, which is this
shit comes back to get you.
We are not disconnected and Ithink climate change is really
forcing a reckoning on theplanet.
As disconnected as we mightthink, it does catch up with you
.
Keep dumping carbon in the air,it's going to catch up with you
(12:27):
.
You keep dumping plastic andoil in the oceans, it's going to
catch up with you.
It might be mercury levels andcancer spikes when you're eating
your tuna, or it might bedestabilization in this country
because you pillage their watersand now we're sending in
Marines and one of them is yourson.
It's going to catch up with youone way or another.
It's a 70 variable equation.
It's not a simple transactionbut it is real.
(12:49):
The causality connection isreal between geopolitical
stability, food security,environmental stability,
personal health all these thingsconnect with the fate of the
oceans.
Not to mention if the oceansprovide 50% of the air we
breathe and they filter 50% ofthe air we breathe.
And that doesn't work when theoceans are dead, because the
(13:11):
stuff that filters it are livingthings in the oceans, not just
the water, and we're rapidlykilling everything in the water.
We're going to have a problemIt's just breathing at some
point soon.
So all of these things areborne out by science.
Now the big problem is the timemark.
We all think three months,three weeks, maybe three years,
but 13 years, 30 years.
That's harder for us to fathomand care about and one of the
(13:34):
key ways in which this goes backto the ethical thing that $1.99
and Skipjack can of tuna isimpossible.
You look at it and you're likewait, how could you possibly
pull a fish from the other sideof the world, get it here to my
shelf in seven days and it onlycosts $1.99?
How is that possible?
It's not.
There's all these hidden costsin there, from sea slavery to
dumping, to legal fishing, tocarbon pollution that have
(13:57):
gotten offloaded to other poorpeople or all of us, or just not
the corporate investors, andthat's going to catch up with us
.
So you are kind of complicit,unfortunately, in these crimes
by buying the $1.99 tuna andjust hoping for the best,
because you're kind of funnelingmoney into the system that's
accelerating these problems.
Speaker 1 (14:18):
Well, it's obvious you do care about the impact the
outlaw ocean has on us as ahuman species and you're doing
your part to try to mitigatethat.
But is there one moment whereyou felt deeply connected or
removed in some way by being outon the ocean?
Speaker 2 (14:40):
I'm looking at my map now.
I think I was somewhere out onthe north Atlantic.
It was a pretty clear night.
I was on a green peat ship Thiswas part of one of their
campaigns and I was just therecapturing that story.
I was on the back of the shipand I was just passing time.
(15:03):
I was really clear night.
There was maybe six foot swellsnot black, but not crazy.
I remember just sort ofpondering what a weird place
this was, and then I startedleaning into the weird.
It's not just weird, it's kindof down, right upside down.
(15:25):
I started thinking about what Imeant by that.
In front of me were these birdsthat were flying and then
diving and disappearing underthe water for impossibly long
periods A good minute underwater, because I would watch for
(15:51):
where they would pop up andthey would be way far away.
And then they'd come flying outof the water.
And then, on the other side ofthe boat, you had these fish
that were coming out of thewater and they had wings and
they were flying across the deck.
These were flying fish.
I thought, okay, so you gotbirds that are swimming under
(16:14):
water And so the fish werecoming out of the water and
occupying the sky.
And then I was like, okay, well,there's an example of just how
upside down things are.
And then I was like and look atthe sky.
There was an unbelievably clearnight sky and you could see
shooting stars all over theplace and there were like white
(16:38):
streaks of chalk on a blackboard.
And then I was like, oh, that'sjust amazing that you can see
that many and I just stare for10 seconds.
I'm going to see one.
And then I looked underneaththe water and I realized there
was a school of some sort offish that was going through a
cluster of bioluminescence Andwhen the fish went through that
(17:02):
cloud they created these blueunderwater streaks.
I remember looking and tryingto see if I could capture in the
same frame of vision the whitecreaks in the sky and the blue
streaks underwater, and I couldremember thinking I can't even
(17:24):
tell where the water ends andthe sky begins.
And I just thought that allfive minutes of what came into
my eyes sums up the marvel andAlice in Wonderland nature of
this place.
Speaker 1 (17:52):
Finally, we end every interview and every episode
with a single open-endedquestion.
we ask everyone we talk to Whatdoes the ocean mean to you?
Speaker 2 (18:02):
The ocean.
For me is this impossiblysprawling, surprisingly lively
frontier.
Speaker 1 (18:15):
Thanks for listening to the Big Deep podcast.
Next time on Big Deep.
Speaker 2 (18:22):
To make beautiful photographs.
you are a bearing witness, andso, yes, we do have a
responsibility to share thewonder and the amazement of
underwater life, and that's thebiggest gift.
Speaker 1 (18:33):
We really appreciate you being on this journey into
the Big Deep as we explore anocean of stories.
If you like what we're doing,please make sure to subscribe
wherever you listen to podcasts.
Also, please like and comment,because those subscribes, likes
and comments really make adifference For more interviews,
deeper discussions with ourguests, photos and updates on
(18:54):
anything you've heard.
There's a lot more content atour website, bigdeepcom Plus.
If you know someone we shouldthink we should talk to, let us
know at our Big Deep website, aswe are always looking to hear
more stories from interestingpeople who are deeply connected
to our world's oceans.
Thanks again for joining us.
Hi and welcome to the Big Deep podcast.
Big Deep is a podcast aboutpeople who have a connection to
the ocean, people for whom thatconnection is so strong it
defines some aspect of theirlife.
Over the course of this series,we'll talk to all sorts of
people and in each episode we'llexplore the deeper meaning of
(00:30):
that connection.
Today, i speak with a PulitzerPrize-winning investigative
journalist whose work has takenhim deep into the darker realms
of what he calls the OutlawOcean.
Hello, this is your host, jasonElias.
Welcome to the Big Deep podcast.
In today's episode, i speakwith New York Times Pulitzer
(00:55):
Prize-winning journalist, ianUrbina.
Ian's investigative journalismfocuses on the intersection of
the human species and thelawless frontier of the open
ocean.
His work most often appears inthe New York Times, but he
frequently writes for TheAtlantic and The New Yorker,
culminating in his New YorkTimes bestseller, the Outlaw
Ocean.
(01:15):
The people I speak with in thisshow most often have a deep
passion for the oceanenvironment and dedicate their
lives to it in some way.
What was interesting about Ianand why he reached out was for a
slightly different perspective,particularly around how the
ocean shapes human culture andthe nature of those who work and
live their lives on it, andthis can be a dark place.
Most of this takes place ininternational waters, starting
(01:38):
just 12 miles offshore, where nocountry's laws are in effect
and there is no realjurisdiction protecting workers
such as fishermen or long-haulcargo shippers, nor the world's
marine life.
Ian readily admits his worktrawls hidden areas of the human
experience as he works toexpose the exploitation of both
ocean workers and theenvironment itself.
And yet I found Ian to be anincredibly warm person who
(02:02):
talked about his path to thework he does, why the blank
spaces on a map resonated withhim, and an incredible moment in
the North Atlantic when theworld turned upside down.
Speaker 2 (02:12):
My name is Ian Urbina , i'm a journalist and I focus
on crimes at sea, especiallyhuman rights, environmental and
labor abuses that occur on theocean around the world.
Speaker 1 (02:23):
You've obviously made your career focused on ocean
issues.
When did you first realize yourconnection to the ocean and how
did that manifest?
Speaker 2 (02:32):
I never grew up on the water in any real way, but
whenever I would encounter a mapof the world, i would always
look at the blue and thefarthest off specks in the blue
and wonder what is that placelike?
What's it like to be a teenagerthere?
How do you get there?
What if planes don't come everyweek?
There's just lots of questionsabout the people that live so
(02:53):
remotely in that watery desert,and that was the extent of my
enamorment with the ocean.
The real exposure came when Iwas doing doctoral work at the
University of Chicago, one coldwinter and I decided to take
several months off and take ajob to be a deckhand on a
research vessel anchored inSingapore.
We never left port and so I wasliving on this boat and for
(03:22):
those three months I wasspending a lot of time with
seafarers.
These were long-haul fishermen,tuna, long-liner Indonesian
deckhands all the way up toGeraldo Rivera's super yacht.
So it was like a really mixedbunch.
I anthropologically becameentranced by those people,
almost like a diaspora,transient tribe of people.
(03:45):
They had everything that atribe has.
They had their own language,their own stories, their own
hierarchy, their own rules,their own customs, their own
relationship with time and theirown crime.
What I saw in these guysdeckhands or yachtsmen or
merchant marine was this love ofliving apart from everyone else
(04:06):
, a sort of antisocial element,a sense of daring, but also
internal exploration of survivaland possibly long periods of
quiet and going to these extremeedges of civilization and maybe
even beyond, and then stayingthere.
How do they survive and howthose realms affect their mental
(04:28):
health and worldview.
I always wanted to be JaneGoodall growing up, and when I
look back on why, it wasn't herinteraction with animals, it was
her exploration of these faroff worlds, and to some degree I
see the oceans as the extremeversion of that.
It is space travel on earth.
(04:50):
It is this realm that isawe-inspiring and scary and
mystical and utterly different.
A friend of mine defined theword sublime as a combination of
profound and fraught, bothbeautiful and fearful.
That which is sublime holds inboth balances.
My outlook on that place isthat it is truly sublime.
(05:14):
It's one of the most intenseforms of sublime I've
encountered.
That attracted me.
That space challenges you inways that I really respected and
that's what motivated me, onceI was at the New York Times, to
write about them again.
Speaker 1 (05:27):
So you were a cultural anthropologist when you
went to Singapore and then youbecame a journalist later on in
life.
What does it you find sointeresting about exploring
those subterranean channels thatdrive human society,
particularly on the ocean?
And then why do you feel theneed to share that with others?
Speaker 2 (05:45):
So when I went to grad school I was in the history
department.
I was going to do what's calledintellectual history.
I was super interested in thehistory of ideas When I was
wanting to do my specialty onthe concept of human nature and
what makes us tick.
I'd feel like the explorationof the outlaw ocean is
anthropologically an attempt tochronicle this tribe of people
(06:08):
from whom you rarely hear inthis space where few people go.
But it's also an exploration ofa deep structure to what makes
us tick and quite especially theline between civilization and
the lack of it.
What I'm exploring the darkerside of this tribe and its
behaviors is to some degreequintessential public service
investigative journalism.
I want to reveal bad stuffthat's happening so it can get
(06:30):
fixed.
That's what you do as aninvestigative journalist.
But I'm also trying to minethose stories for something
deeper.
It's all against this beautiful, awe-inspiring backdrop, but
most of what I focus on is notbeautiful or awe-inspiring.
It's quite the underbelly andit's really man's in humanity
demand and why he is napping upthere, and it adds up to a call
(06:52):
for better governance.
We as animals really needenforceables on us and the
outlaw ocean is in some ways thespace where we don't have real,
true governance.
Speaker 1 (07:02):
I'm a collector and lover of antiquarian maps and I
have a number of maps in myhouse from the 17th and 18th
century that show parts of theworld carved up by the colonial
powers and then blank areas onthe map that simply indicate a
place where no Western societyis yet.
What's interesting, and basedon what you're saying, is that
(07:23):
in this time where we thinkeverything is connected, you're
actually saying there are largeparts of the world that are not,
that are still those blankplaces on the map, and they
simply start 12 miles offshorein the international waters.
Speaker 2 (07:36):
On those maps I mentioned in the book.
It's like here be dragons.
I'm so enamored with that.
Here be dragons on these oldmaps.
That's just way out there andwe're not sure what's out there.
That is the emblem of theoutlaw ocean In this moment,
(07:57):
when we think everything hasbeen mapped, there are no new
stories, there's no place thatno one's gone with.
Our handheld devices kind ofknow everything.
It's all filmed, so not true?
All of that is not true.
Huge swaths of the planet,millions of people completely
off radar, and I think that'sone of the things that make this
(08:18):
reporting really attractive tome.
I was really interested in howthe experience of ocean travel,
especially long periods of it,maybe even a lifetime of it, can
change a person in their core.
I would go across thecategories.
(08:40):
It changes your biology.
There's sea sickness and landsickness, and land sickness is
the pendulum and your ear won'treadjust when you come back on
land.
And what's interesting is a lotof people that don't let sea
sick do get land sick.
The experience of getting landsickness it's like drunken
(09:01):
bedspins standing up.
You feel everything's movingand it's often called sway.
Sometimes you even startcounter swaying.
People are like why are yourocking And some people don't
even ever readjust.
So it's amazing that just beingin this realm, where the
physics are different, canchange your inner biology.
(09:23):
I think it changes yourpsychology And I saw this with
myself.
The stereotype of the scraggly,grumpy fish captain is based on
something true.
My theory is that thatarchetype character is someone
who's been out there so long Andthe out there is a self-imposed
(09:47):
solitary confinement.
By having spent such longperiods in places that are so
quiet, so little communicationbetween people, their
relationship with light andsound and spaces has changed.
They come back on shore andthey don't let go of their lives
.
They come back on shore andthey don't adjust.
(10:08):
When you're at sea, everythingis regimented in a different
sort of way.
You go out into this realm andyou realize you're divorced from
so many things.
You can't internet, you can'temail or text with people for
long periods and not even surewhat day it is and kind of know
(10:29):
roughly what time it is, and youstart having deeper
conversations in your head.
There's a part in the bookwhere I talk about what one guy
referred to as soul whispers Inmy normal life.
Here at best I maybe have athree sentence conversation with
(10:49):
myself in my head.
When I'm at sea, i can be atfor two hours quietly staring
off into space, having a full onconversation with myself.
It's beautiful but it'sdangerous.
That's how life on land is like, but these are ways in which I
(11:12):
do think people change.
Speaker 1 (11:21):
There's obviously something about the intersection
of the ocean, environment andhumanity that you find very
appealing and that you likeexploring what impact that
environment has on human society, human culture, human beings
themselves, but outside, someonewho has an interest in that?
why should everyone else careabout the outlaw ocean?
Speaker 2 (11:43):
I think the cliche but no less true answer is you
know you're not going to be ableto get into the ocean has to be
said at some basic moral level.
If you think of yourself as ahuman and therefore you do care
about other humans, even ifthey're different color, class,
nationality and far away.
If really bad things arehappening to other humans or
(12:05):
green life, then just on anethical level you probably
should care.
But if that doesn't move you,then there's a sort of
self-interested, utilitarian,practical level, which is this
shit comes back to get you.
We are not disconnected and Ithink climate change is really
forcing a reckoning on theplanet.
As disconnected as we mightthink, it does catch up with you
.
Keep dumping carbon in the air,it's going to catch up with you
(12:27):
.
You keep dumping plastic andoil in the oceans, it's going to
catch up with you.
It might be mercury levels andcancer spikes when you're eating
your tuna, or it might bedestabilization in this country
because you pillage their watersand now we're sending in
Marines and one of them is yourson.
It's going to catch up with youone way or another.
It's a 70 variable equation.
It's not a simple transactionbut it is real.
(12:49):
The causality connection isreal between geopolitical
stability, food security,environmental stability,
personal health all these thingsconnect with the fate of the
oceans.
Not to mention if the oceansprovide 50% of the air we
breathe and they filter 50% ofthe air we breathe.
And that doesn't work when theoceans are dead, because the
(13:11):
stuff that filters it are livingthings in the oceans, not just
the water, and we're rapidlykilling everything in the water.
We're going to have a problemIt's just breathing at some
point soon.
So all of these things areborne out by science.
Now the big problem is the timemark.
We all think three months,three weeks, maybe three years,
but 13 years, 30 years.
That's harder for us to fathomand care about and one of the
(13:34):
key ways in which this goes backto the ethical thing that $1.99
and Skipjack can of tuna isimpossible.
You look at it and you're likewait, how could you possibly
pull a fish from the other sideof the world, get it here to my
shelf in seven days and it onlycosts $1.99?
How is that possible?
It's not.
There's all these hidden costsin there, from sea slavery to
dumping, to legal fishing, tocarbon pollution that have
(13:57):
gotten offloaded to other poorpeople or all of us, or just not
the corporate investors, andthat's going to catch up with us
.
So you are kind of complicit,unfortunately, in these crimes
by buying the $1.99 tuna andjust hoping for the best,
because you're kind of funnelingmoney into the system that's
accelerating these problems.
Speaker 1 (14:18):
Well, it's obvious you do care about the impact the
outlaw ocean has on us as ahuman species and you're doing
your part to try to mitigatethat.
But is there one moment whereyou felt deeply connected or
removed in some way by being outon the ocean?
Speaker 2 (14:40):
I'm looking at my map now.
I think I was somewhere out onthe north Atlantic.
It was a pretty clear night.
I was on a green peat ship Thiswas part of one of their
campaigns and I was just therecapturing that story.
I was on the back of the shipand I was just passing time.
(15:03):
I was really clear night.
There was maybe six foot swellsnot black, but not crazy.
I remember just sort ofpondering what a weird place
this was, and then I startedleaning into the weird.
It's not just weird, it's kindof down, right upside down.
(15:25):
I started thinking about what Imeant by that.
In front of me were these birdsthat were flying and then
diving and disappearing underthe water for impossibly long
periods A good minute underwater, because I would watch for
(15:51):
where they would pop up andthey would be way far away.
And then they'd come flying outof the water.
And then, on the other side ofthe boat, you had these fish
that were coming out of thewater and they had wings and
they were flying across the deck.
These were flying fish.
I thought, okay, so you gotbirds that are swimming under
(16:14):
water And so the fish werecoming out of the water and
occupying the sky.
And then I was like, okay, well,there's an example of just how
upside down things are.
And then I was like and look atthe sky.
There was an unbelievably clearnight sky and you could see
shooting stars all over theplace and there were like white
(16:38):
streaks of chalk on a blackboard.
And then I was like, oh, that'sjust amazing that you can see
that many and I just stare for10 seconds.
I'm going to see one.
And then I looked underneaththe water and I realized there
was a school of some sort offish that was going through a
cluster of bioluminescence Andwhen the fish went through that
(17:02):
cloud they created these blueunderwater streaks.
I remember looking and tryingto see if I could capture in the
same frame of vision the whitecreaks in the sky and the blue
streaks underwater, and I couldremember thinking I can't even
(17:24):
tell where the water ends andthe sky begins.
And I just thought that allfive minutes of what came into
my eyes sums up the marvel andAlice in Wonderland nature of
this place.
Speaker 1 (17:52):
Finally, we end every interview and every episode
with a single open-endedquestion.
we ask everyone we talk to Whatdoes the ocean mean to you?
Speaker 2 (18:02):
The ocean.
For me is this impossiblysprawling, surprisingly lively
frontier.
Speaker 1 (18:15):
Thanks for listening to the Big Deep podcast.
Next time on Big Deep.
Speaker 2 (18:22):
To make beautiful photographs.
you are a bearing witness, andso, yes, we do have a
responsibility to share thewonder and the amazement of
underwater life, and that's thebiggest gift.
Speaker 1 (18:33):
We really appreciate you being on this journey into
the Big Deep as we explore anocean of stories.
If you like what we're doing,please make sure to subscribe
wherever you listen to podcasts.
Also, please like and comment,because those subscribes, likes
and comments really make adifference For more interviews,
deeper discussions with ourguests, photos and updates on
(18:54):
anything you've heard.
There's a lot more content atour website, bigdeepcom Plus.
If you know someone we shouldthink we should talk to, let us
know at our Big Deep website, aswe are always looking to hear
more stories from interestingpeople who are deeply connected
to our world's oceans.
Thanks again for joining us.
Popular Podcasts
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Therapy Gecko
An unlicensed lizard psychologist travels the universe talking to strangers about absolutely nothing. TO CALL THE GECKO: follow me on https://www.twitch.tv/lyleforever to get a notification for when I am taking calls. I am usually live Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays but lately a lot of other times too. I am a gecko.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.