September 17, 2024 • 16 mins
What happens when the power dynamic at work transforms into a tool of intimidation and belittlement? Our latest podcast episode tackles the pervasive and often misunderstood issue of workplace bullying. We begin by defining it as a repeated, intentional act designed to harm, distinguishing it from mere managerial directives. We delve into the psychology behind bullying, often rooted in the bully's insecurities and desire for power, and discuss how past experiences can skew one's perception of being bullied. Recognising these patterns is crucial to understanding the fine line between clear boundaries and real bullying.
Finding your voice amid such adversity is another critical theme. We explore how resilience and self-protection can be nurtured from childhood through to adulthood. Effective strategies include assertive communication and calmly confronting disrespectful behaviour. Self-awareness, coupled with a solid foundation of evidence, plays a vital role in addressing these issues. Interestingly, many bullies may simply lack self-awareness and can change once they understand their impact. Join us for actionable insights into creating a more respectful and empowering workplace.
For more content, check out Sian's website sianjaquet.com, and her online course: Create The Life You Truly Love.
www.sianjaquet.com
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 2 (00:00):
So you've got a funny grin on your face.
It's like you're frightened toeven say it.
It's not frightened it's likeWelcome to Big Questions.
Short Answers.
I'm Sian.
Speaker 1 (00:11):
And I'm Andy Sian's husband asking the big life
questions.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
And possibly adding a little bit of unsolicited
advice.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
This podcast is brought to you by Sian's
value-based online course.
Visit sianjackeycom to find outmore.
Okay, so the question of it wetouched on it in an earlier
podcast and what I want to talkabout and it has to do with
burnout, but this takes it a bitfurther is workplace bullying,
(00:40):
work bully, bully, bullySomething that I know that you
abhor, but it happens a lot,doesn't it?
It happens a lot.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
What do you mean by workplace bullying?
Speaker 1 (00:54):
Well, again, you always ask me to clarify these
things, these big questions.
Well, I suppose, it's to dowith in a situation of
intimidation, where the magicword you're looking for is
repeated, say again Repeated,repeated, say that again.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
Bullying is an action or a way of being treated that
doesn't leave you feeling good,wherever on the scale.
But there is a big differencebetween somebody in a work
situation giving you a clearinstruction to do something that
you don't want to do, and youhear it, you internalize it, and
it's when you're bullying me bytelling me to do that.
(01:34):
Yeah, on a one off occasion.
I mean, there's quite a lot oftimes in my work when I kind of
unravel that, yeah, I am beingbullied.
Well, ok, we'll define it.
Bull all that?
Yeah, I am being bullied.
Well, okay, we'll define it.
Bullying is when there is theway I think of it.
Right is whoever is doing thebullying.
There's some prep time in theirhead beforehand.
It's not a one-off in themoment.
(01:55):
It's you are premeditatinglytrying to be unreasonable.
Put somebody or a group down.
It's directed towards somebodyand you can.
It's intended to intimidate andit's intended to make somebody
let me just use a word thatwe'll all understand hurt.
(02:15):
Yeah, that's bullying.
Speaker 1 (02:19):
But when you say intended, there are some
managers who use that as theirmanagerial technique.
They're constantly bullies.
Speaker 2 (02:32):
Well then, they're going to be a bully inside of
work and outside of work.
And again, the people who are.
If you are a bully, you have aninadequacy, you're looking for
power or you're trying to coversomething up in your own self
Bullying.
The first question to askyourself, you know, if you feel
unhappy and you feel hurt andsad because of the way you're
(02:54):
being treated, the first thing Iwould ask anybody to explain to
me is has it happened before?
Does that person do it to otherpeople?
Yeah, Is there a pattern tothis behavior?
Because then I'm more inclinedto do more digging and research
as to is this a bullyingsituation?
The other side of the coin is, Iquite often come across and it
(03:16):
does tend to be younger peopleand not saying every young
person is flaky.
That is not what I'm saying.
You know it's an.
I am being treated unfairly.
They are bullying me andactually I'm not.
You know it's an.
I am being treated unfairly.
They are bullying me, yeah, andactually I'm not sure they are
bullying you.
They're being very clear aboutwhat their expectations are and
you don't like hearing it.
Speaker 1 (03:33):
Right.
So what you're saying is thatsometimes, as a receiver, you
can misinterpret instructionsbecause you just don't like them
.
Speaker 2 (03:43):
Yep, and then the word bully is brought out
because you just don't like them.
Yep, and then the word bully isbrought out Right because
everyone knows that's a kind ofHR issue.
I'm, you know, as you saidearlier, you know it's a button
in me, right?
I have very little tolerancefor people who manage other
people, whether it's in theworkplace or actually in family
(04:03):
situations that they usebullying as their fundamental
technique.
Speaker 1 (04:07):
Yeah, it's like an overpowering power, isn't it?
Speaker 2 (04:11):
Yeah, well, it's needing to have power over
somebody, but the difference isand this is again the world
according to Sharn.
I'm sure there are many otherpeople who'd say I was way off
mark, but the way I filter it is.
Is there a consistency in apattern here?
Yes, and this is a weird thingto say, but this is actually
what I think.
Is the person who's doing thebullying getting their jollies
(04:34):
out of this?
Do they actually enjoybelittling and putting somebody
down?
right yeah, and I'm sad to saythat there are a frightening
number of people who do likethat feeling of power over
another human being bybelittling them, and they do it
consistently because it makesthem feel good about themselves.
(04:54):
Well, you know, if you unravelit all, a bully has got some
issues about their own sense ofconfidence and their own
self-belief, or we're tippinginto personality disorders.
That's a whole differentballgame.
Yeah, but I think that you know, if I'm talking to somebody and
you're looking at my workingenvironment and I feel like I'm
(05:15):
being bullied, the questions youneed to ask yourself.
They're quite simple really.
Is there a pattern to it?
Is it happening to anybody else?
Or am I allowing myself, yes,to respond to something in an
emotional way that makes me feelbad, Because actually I'm being
(05:35):
challenged with a clearboundary here.
Yes, you're not actually beingbullied.
You are being given a veryclear boundary.
Speaker 1 (05:43):
Do you think there's some blurring that goes on there
.
Speaker 2 (05:46):
Well, I think we're all triggered, aren't we?
From our life experience, andyou know we don't suddenly get
out of bed in the morning and goto work and all the rest of our
life experience disappears.
It's all part and parcel of howwe respond to something in the
moment.
Yeah, I can.
Speaker 1 (06:02):
I mean you always say , like not to bring up my school
life, but you always stand upto the bully.
And I remember having a goodold fight with one of the
bullies at school and I feltvery proud about that.
But you always say, oh, youstand up to the bully, yeah,
stand up in his face, yeah.
And you still think that works,not just in a playground
(06:24):
situation.
Speaker 2 (06:24):
Well, it's age and stage, isn't it?
Speaker 1 (06:24):
Let's be fair Not in a playground situation, but in a
work situation.
Speaker 2 (06:28):
Well, let me go back to the playground situation,
because actually it's in schoolis where we learn this
resilience.
We learn how to protectourselves from people who are
overpowering us.
Is it bullying, is itintimidating, I don't know.
Whatever it is right,somebody's overpowering us.
Well, it's in school.
That's where we learn where ourboundaries are and what you
know.
We begin to work out what'sright and wrong.
(06:50):
So I have on numerous occasions,you know, chatted to people,
friends, colleagues, even inwork situation, where they'll
say you know my child's atschool and they're being bullied
, right, what do I do?
How do I?
How do I?
How do I manage that?
So if somebody's, if you'redealing with a younger child,
that's in school I mean, if youremember, even when our kids
(07:11):
were little and in school andthey'd be, you know some so it's
being nasty to me and they'rehurting my feelings and they're
not letting me play and they'rewhatever, whatever, whatever.
What I would say to our kidsand I've shared this with many
people is you teach your kids toput your hand up you know, the
palm of your hand in front ofsomebody and say stop doing that
.
You are hurting my feelings.
(07:32):
Now I I think you're laughingat me.
But if you've got a five, sixyear old who's able to say that,
right, what they're doing isthey're teaching themselves,
they're recognizing their needto protect themselves and
they're finding their voiceright.
Yeah, they're not becoming avictim, they're not allowing
somebody to run, shot, rough,shot off of them right stop that
(07:55):
.
You are hurting my feelings yeahyes, if you, like, all I do is
as people get older, whetherit's work or whatever.
Yeah, I take that concept andI'll present it in a way that
you, at this age and stage, cansay it.
Yeah, so if somebody at work ishaving a go at you and is not
making you feel safe andintimidating you and belittling
(08:20):
you and disrespecting you, right, the first place I would go to
is right, you need to find asafe way to sit down with that
person and say to them you don'taccuse us, by the way, we don't
start by burning the house down.
And if you can't do it on your,by the way, we don't start by
burning the house down.
And if you can't do it on yourown, by the way, it's perfectly
okay to ask somebody to comewith you to be there as you're
(08:40):
doing it.
I really do believe that,because sometimes there are
serious power inequities, butyou find a way of sitting down
with somebody and saying, look,I just need to share with you in
the last three weeks, this,this and this happened.
And when with you in the lastthree weeks, this, this and this
happened, right, and when ithappened, you responded like
this this is how it made me feelthis was my experience.
(09:01):
I don't know whether you'remeaning to do that, but you're
leaving me feeling disempowered,very unhappy, and I feel like I
don't even want to bloody behere anymore.
Look, you know you're asking methese questions and what's
really jumping into my head isthat the first person who's
responsible for anything isyourself.
Yes, do not be intimidated andbullied and treated appallingly
(09:25):
anywhere, anywhere in your life,and find a way to find your
voice, to explain how this isleaving you feeling.
Speaker 1 (09:35):
Without accusation.
Speaker 2 (09:36):
Yes, yes that's the key now there comes a point
where you know there are verydifferent situations.
You know I'm talking the abcshere.
Sometimes we're up to xyz ofbullying and intimidating.
That is a whole different ballgame.
But the chances are that, in avery basic term, either somebody
is triggering you because theway they're communicating with
(09:57):
you makes you feel hurt andsmall and disrespected.
Are they doing it consistently?
That is the fundamentaldifference, right, yeah, between
having the odd clash withsomebody yeah or somebody
bullying you.
Speaker 1 (10:16):
And just a case of sitting down, and you know.
Speaker 2 (10:20):
All that in itself can be really, really difficult.
Speaker 1 (10:22):
Yeah, it can be difficult, can't it?
You know saying stop, you'rehurting my feelings like a
five-year-old, but it's tryingto understand the other person
as to whether or not this isintentional or not.
If it's bloody intentional, youneed to get the hell out of
there, I would imagine.
Speaker 2 (10:39):
Well, yes, and changing the circumstances is
one way of doing it, but again,I'm not really an advocate of
keep moving on, I'm an advocateof learn the skills.
Learn the skills to find yourvoice.
And literally, literally.
Am I safe here?
And is that person willing tolisten, willing to learn?
I've got to be fair here, right?
(11:00):
There are people that I'veworked with and I know who have
been accused of being bullies.
Speaker 1 (11:05):
Okay, right, there's the other side.
You've been working with peoplewho have been accused of being
bullies, okay.
Speaker 2 (11:09):
And there have been occasions when it was absolutely
right for that execution to beput out of their doorstep,
because they and were yeah.
But if I'm honest, the vastmajority of people, they're not
really bullies, right.
They're just not veryself-aware.
They get very wound up underpressure.
They overbate the cake in theway in which they communicate
(11:31):
with people, the, the tone andthe attitude, and when you
actually sit them down and youexplain to them in a calm,
processed, evidence way you needevidence if you're going to
challenge anybody's behaviour inthat, certainly in a work
situation, they're devastatedthat they think, oh no, oh right
, or I never, I don't know.
(11:53):
Suddenly they realise and, Iwould say, most people I've ever
needed to challenge, becausethe way in which they've
presented themselves has beenthey're out of order the way
they're speaking to people andthe way they're leaving hell and
desolation behind them.
I can think of one guy who Iworked with, who worked in a
very male, very male environmentwhere there was, you know,
(12:17):
buckets of testosterone anywhereand the culture was whoever
shouted the loudest and bangedthe table.
That was the person who youresponded to.
You're right.
Yeah, we'll skip over the factthat that was actually an
endemic cultural issue.
But there was adisproportionate number of
people in that organization whobullied their way and after kind
of being involved for about sixto twelve months, it was very
(12:39):
clear that actually there wasone bully who was quite high up
the food chain who allowed thisbehavior to carry on because it
suited their agenda, but thevast majority of people who were
, you know we're talking quite asignificant number of people.
I have four or five people in asenior role were all being
called bullies.
They weren't bullies at all.
(13:00):
They were reflecting themanagement style that they were
under, number one.
Speaker 1 (13:04):
Right right.
Speaker 2 (13:05):
And it was like accepted that you could do that
and it was only when you kind ofstopped and unraveled.
Speaker 1 (13:12):
And put a bit of a mirror up.
Speaker 2 (13:13):
They were able to see how they were leaving broken,
hurt people.
And when you look at anorganisation again, you can't
speak to any HR expert who goesin there and knows on a daily
basis what's happening.
You look at any business whereyou've got a considerable.
You've got one department wherethere's churn and burn and
people are leaving out the door,but the leaders are still there
(13:34):
and there's a lot of complaintsabout them.
Hello, you know what I mean.
But you're looking forconsistency.
Speaker 1 (13:45):
As far as bullying is concerned, okay, it needs to
happen more than once and ifsomebody really is a bully, you
won't be the only person thatthey're bullying, and the thing
to to address it either if youare the bully or are being
bullied is is to note it, toactually step forward and get it
out of the open and talk aboutit.
Speaker 2 (14:03):
And that's the bit that's really difficult, right,
that is.
It's really difficult whenyou've had a kicking.
Your confidence is low, you'vebeen disrespected, you're tired.
Let's link it now.
You talked earlier in anotherpodcast about burnout, and
that's what burnout looks like.
Yeah, that you feel dreadfuland you don't want to go into
(14:23):
work and your energy is leaking.
You know we're not taught, arewe how to find our own voice and
speak up for ourselves in anappropriate way?
Because there is an appropriateway in the workforce, there's
an appropriate way everywhere.
But you know it's about.
I would be saying to somebody,my advice to them would be okay.
First of all, write down whatyou're talking about.
(14:46):
When did it happen?
How did it happen?
How did it leave you feel?
And once you've got two orthree of them, then you need to
go and share with that personand go to HR and ask them to
come, a trusted colleague tocome with you.
Yeah, but find your voice.
And again, I'm looping thisback now to parenting, to school
(15:07):
, to preparing people to be inthe workplace.
We need to take on theresponsibility of teaching and
empowering kids and young peopleto find their voice.
Yeah, Mm-hmm.
You need to be able to speak upfor yourself, and it's not an
easy thing to do, but it's likeeverything else, you know once
(15:31):
you use that muscle.
It becomes easier.
It becomes easier once you'velearned how to do it.
But if you're going tochallenge in a working situation
because you believe you'rebeing bullied, you need evidence
.
You need how, why, where andwhen.
Yeah, you know what I mean.
You need to look at it from avery clear point of view, not an
emotional one, which when, ifyou are being bullied, is a very
(15:53):
, very hard thing to do.
Speaker 1 (15:55):
Yeah, that is where we're going to have to leave it
just now, but really reallysound advice.
Join us next time on BigQuestions, Short Answers with
Sian Jacquet and me, Andy.
Speaker 2 (16:08):
If you have any questions you want to ask,
please send them via the websitesianjacquetcom.
Speaker 1 (16:14):
If you enjoyed this podcast, please subscribe and
share it with everyone you know.
Speaker 2 (16:19):
We really do appreciate you sharing 15
minutes with us.
Speaker 1 (16:22):
And if you want to do a bit more learning, go on to
Sian's website sianjackaycom.
There's a course on values tocreate life you truly love.
I did it and it really does dowhat it says on the can.
Speaker 2 (16:33):
See you next time.
So you've got a funny grin on your face.
It's like you're frightened toeven say it.
It's not frightened it's likeWelcome to Big Questions.
Short Answers.
I'm Sian.
Speaker 1 (00:11):
And I'm Andy Sian's husband asking the big life
questions.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
And possibly adding a little bit of unsolicited
advice.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
This podcast is brought to you by Sian's
value-based online course.
Visit sianjackeycom to find outmore.
Okay, so the question of it wetouched on it in an earlier
podcast and what I want to talkabout and it has to do with
burnout, but this takes it a bitfurther is workplace bullying,
(00:40):
work bully, bully, bullySomething that I know that you
abhor, but it happens a lot,doesn't it?
It happens a lot.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
What do you mean by workplace bullying?
Speaker 1 (00:54):
Well, again, you always ask me to clarify these
things, these big questions.
Well, I suppose, it's to dowith in a situation of
intimidation, where the magicword you're looking for is
repeated, say again Repeated,repeated, say that again.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
Bullying is an action or a way of being treated that
doesn't leave you feeling good,wherever on the scale.
But there is a big differencebetween somebody in a work
situation giving you a clearinstruction to do something that
you don't want to do, and youhear it, you internalize it, and
it's when you're bullying me bytelling me to do that.
(01:34):
Yeah, on a one off occasion.
I mean, there's quite a lot oftimes in my work when I kind of
unravel that, yeah, I am beingbullied.
Well, ok, we'll define it.
Bull all that?
Yeah, I am being bullied.
Well, okay, we'll define it.
Bullying is when there is theway I think of it.
Right is whoever is doing thebullying.
There's some prep time in theirhead beforehand.
It's not a one-off in themoment.
(01:55):
It's you are premeditatinglytrying to be unreasonable.
Put somebody or a group down.
It's directed towards somebodyand you can.
It's intended to intimidate andit's intended to make somebody
let me just use a word thatwe'll all understand hurt.
(02:15):
Yeah, that's bullying.
Speaker 1 (02:19):
But when you say intended, there are some
managers who use that as theirmanagerial technique.
They're constantly bullies.
Speaker 2 (02:32):
Well then, they're going to be a bully inside of
work and outside of work.
And again, the people who are.
If you are a bully, you have aninadequacy, you're looking for
power or you're trying to coversomething up in your own self
Bullying.
The first question to askyourself, you know, if you feel
unhappy and you feel hurt andsad because of the way you're
(02:54):
being treated, the first thing Iwould ask anybody to explain to
me is has it happened before?
Does that person do it to otherpeople?
Yeah, Is there a pattern tothis behavior?
Because then I'm more inclinedto do more digging and research
as to is this a bullyingsituation?
The other side of the coin is, Iquite often come across and it
(03:16):
does tend to be younger peopleand not saying every young
person is flaky.
That is not what I'm saying.
You know it's an.
I am being treated unfairly.
They are bullying me andactually I'm not.
You know it's an.
I am being treated unfairly.
They are bullying me, yeah, andactually I'm not sure they are
bullying you.
They're being very clear aboutwhat their expectations are and
you don't like hearing it.
Speaker 1 (03:33):
Right.
So what you're saying is thatsometimes, as a receiver, you
can misinterpret instructionsbecause you just don't like them
.
Speaker 2 (03:43):
Yep, and then the word bully is brought out
because you just don't like them.
Yep, and then the word bully isbrought out Right because
everyone knows that's a kind ofHR issue.
I'm, you know, as you saidearlier, you know it's a button
in me, right?
I have very little tolerancefor people who manage other
people, whether it's in theworkplace or actually in family
(04:03):
situations that they usebullying as their fundamental
technique.
Speaker 1 (04:07):
Yeah, it's like an overpowering power, isn't it?
Speaker 2 (04:11):
Yeah, well, it's needing to have power over
somebody, but the difference isand this is again the world
according to Sharn.
I'm sure there are many otherpeople who'd say I was way off
mark, but the way I filter it is.
Is there a consistency in apattern here?
Yes, and this is a weird thingto say, but this is actually
what I think.
Is the person who's doing thebullying getting their jollies
(04:34):
out of this?
Do they actually enjoybelittling and putting somebody
down?
right yeah, and I'm sad to saythat there are a frightening
number of people who do likethat feeling of power over
another human being bybelittling them, and they do it
consistently because it makesthem feel good about themselves.
(04:54):
Well, you know, if you unravelit all, a bully has got some
issues about their own sense ofconfidence and their own
self-belief, or we're tippinginto personality disorders.
That's a whole differentballgame.
Yeah, but I think that you know, if I'm talking to somebody and
you're looking at my workingenvironment and I feel like I'm
(05:15):
being bullied, the questions youneed to ask yourself.
They're quite simple really.
Is there a pattern to it?
Is it happening to anybody else?
Or am I allowing myself, yes,to respond to something in an
emotional way that makes me feelbad, Because actually I'm being
(05:35):
challenged with a clearboundary here.
Yes, you're not actually beingbullied.
You are being given a veryclear boundary.
Speaker 1 (05:43):
Do you think there's some blurring that goes on there
.
Speaker 2 (05:46):
Well, I think we're all triggered, aren't we?
From our life experience, andyou know we don't suddenly get
out of bed in the morning and goto work and all the rest of our
life experience disappears.
It's all part and parcel of howwe respond to something in the
moment.
Yeah, I can.
Speaker 1 (06:02):
I mean you always say , like not to bring up my school
life, but you always stand upto the bully.
And I remember having a goodold fight with one of the
bullies at school and I feltvery proud about that.
But you always say, oh, youstand up to the bully, yeah,
stand up in his face, yeah.
And you still think that works,not just in a playground
(06:24):
situation.
Speaker 2 (06:24):
Well, it's age and stage, isn't it?
Speaker 1 (06:24):
Let's be fair Not in a playground situation, but in a
work situation.
Speaker 2 (06:28):
Well, let me go back to the playground situation,
because actually it's in schoolis where we learn this
resilience.
We learn how to protectourselves from people who are
overpowering us.
Is it bullying, is itintimidating, I don't know.
Whatever it is right,somebody's overpowering us.
Well, it's in school.
That's where we learn where ourboundaries are and what you
know.
We begin to work out what'sright and wrong.
(06:50):
So I have on numerous occasions,you know, chatted to people,
friends, colleagues, even inwork situation, where they'll
say you know my child's atschool and they're being bullied
, right, what do I do?
How do I?
How do I?
How do I manage that?
So if somebody's, if you'redealing with a younger child,
that's in school I mean, if youremember, even when our kids
(07:11):
were little and in school andthey'd be, you know some so it's
being nasty to me and they'rehurting my feelings and they're
not letting me play and they'rewhatever, whatever, whatever.
What I would say to our kidsand I've shared this with many
people is you teach your kids toput your hand up you know, the
palm of your hand in front ofsomebody and say stop doing that
.
You are hurting my feelings.
(07:32):
Now I I think you're laughingat me.
But if you've got a five, sixyear old who's able to say that,
right, what they're doing isthey're teaching themselves,
they're recognizing their needto protect themselves and
they're finding their voiceright.
Yeah, they're not becoming avictim, they're not allowing
somebody to run, shot, rough,shot off of them right stop that
(07:55):
.
You are hurting my feelings yeahyes, if you, like, all I do is
as people get older, whetherit's work or whatever.
Yeah, I take that concept andI'll present it in a way that
you, at this age and stage, cansay it.
Yeah, so if somebody at work ishaving a go at you and is not
making you feel safe andintimidating you and belittling
(08:20):
you and disrespecting you, right, the first place I would go to
is right, you need to find asafe way to sit down with that
person and say to them you don'taccuse us, by the way, we don't
start by burning the house down.
And if you can't do it on your,by the way, we don't start by
burning the house down.
And if you can't do it on yourown, by the way, it's perfectly
okay to ask somebody to comewith you to be there as you're
(08:40):
doing it.
I really do believe that,because sometimes there are
serious power inequities, butyou find a way of sitting down
with somebody and saying, look,I just need to share with you in
the last three weeks, this,this and this happened.
And when with you in the lastthree weeks, this, this and this
happened, right, and when ithappened, you responded like
this this is how it made me feelthis was my experience.
(09:01):
I don't know whether you'remeaning to do that, but you're
leaving me feeling disempowered,very unhappy, and I feel like I
don't even want to bloody behere anymore.
Look, you know you're asking methese questions and what's
really jumping into my head isthat the first person who's
responsible for anything isyourself.
Yes, do not be intimidated andbullied and treated appallingly
(09:25):
anywhere, anywhere in your life,and find a way to find your
voice, to explain how this isleaving you feeling.
Speaker 1 (09:35):
Without accusation.
Speaker 2 (09:36):
Yes, yes that's the key now there comes a point
where you know there are verydifferent situations.
You know I'm talking the abcshere.
Sometimes we're up to xyz ofbullying and intimidating.
That is a whole different ballgame.
But the chances are that, in avery basic term, either somebody
is triggering you because theway they're communicating with
(09:57):
you makes you feel hurt andsmall and disrespected.
Are they doing it consistently?
That is the fundamentaldifference, right, yeah, between
having the odd clash withsomebody yeah or somebody
bullying you.
Speaker 1 (10:16):
And just a case of sitting down, and you know.
Speaker 2 (10:20):
All that in itself can be really, really difficult.
Speaker 1 (10:22):
Yeah, it can be difficult, can't it?
You know saying stop, you'rehurting my feelings like a
five-year-old, but it's tryingto understand the other person
as to whether or not this isintentional or not.
If it's bloody intentional, youneed to get the hell out of
there, I would imagine.
Speaker 2 (10:39):
Well, yes, and changing the circumstances is
one way of doing it, but again,I'm not really an advocate of
keep moving on, I'm an advocateof learn the skills.
Learn the skills to find yourvoice.
And literally, literally.
Am I safe here?
And is that person willing tolisten, willing to learn?
I've got to be fair here, right?
(11:00):
There are people that I'veworked with and I know who have
been accused of being bullies.
Speaker 1 (11:05):
Okay, right, there's the other side.
You've been working with peoplewho have been accused of being
bullies, okay.
Speaker 2 (11:09):
And there have been occasions when it was absolutely
right for that execution to beput out of their doorstep,
because they and were yeah.
But if I'm honest, the vastmajority of people, they're not
really bullies, right.
They're just not veryself-aware.
They get very wound up underpressure.
They overbate the cake in theway in which they communicate
(11:31):
with people, the, the tone andthe attitude, and when you
actually sit them down and youexplain to them in a calm,
processed, evidence way you needevidence if you're going to
challenge anybody's behaviour inthat, certainly in a work
situation, they're devastatedthat they think, oh no, oh right
, or I never, I don't know.
(11:53):
Suddenly they realise and, Iwould say, most people I've ever
needed to challenge, becausethe way in which they've
presented themselves has beenthey're out of order the way
they're speaking to people andthe way they're leaving hell and
desolation behind them.
I can think of one guy who Iworked with, who worked in a
very male, very male environmentwhere there was, you know,
(12:17):
buckets of testosterone anywhereand the culture was whoever
shouted the loudest and bangedthe table.
That was the person who youresponded to.
You're right.
Yeah, we'll skip over the factthat that was actually an
endemic cultural issue.
But there was adisproportionate number of
people in that organization whobullied their way and after kind
of being involved for about sixto twelve months, it was very
(12:39):
clear that actually there wasone bully who was quite high up
the food chain who allowed thisbehavior to carry on because it
suited their agenda, but thevast majority of people who were
, you know we're talking quite asignificant number of people.
I have four or five people in asenior role were all being
called bullies.
They weren't bullies at all.
(13:00):
They were reflecting themanagement style that they were
under, number one.
Speaker 1 (13:04):
Right right.
Speaker 2 (13:05):
And it was like accepted that you could do that
and it was only when you kind ofstopped and unraveled.
Speaker 1 (13:12):
And put a bit of a mirror up.
Speaker 2 (13:13):
They were able to see how they were leaving broken,
hurt people.
And when you look at anorganisation again, you can't
speak to any HR expert who goesin there and knows on a daily
basis what's happening.
You look at any business whereyou've got a considerable.
You've got one department wherethere's churn and burn and
people are leaving out the door,but the leaders are still there
(13:34):
and there's a lot of complaintsabout them.
Hello, you know what I mean.
But you're looking forconsistency.
Speaker 1 (13:45):
As far as bullying is concerned, okay, it needs to
happen more than once and ifsomebody really is a bully, you
won't be the only person thatthey're bullying, and the thing
to to address it either if youare the bully or are being
bullied is is to note it, toactually step forward and get it
out of the open and talk aboutit.
Speaker 2 (14:03):
And that's the bit that's really difficult, right,
that is.
It's really difficult whenyou've had a kicking.
Your confidence is low, you'vebeen disrespected, you're tired.
Let's link it now.
You talked earlier in anotherpodcast about burnout, and
that's what burnout looks like.
Yeah, that you feel dreadfuland you don't want to go into
(14:23):
work and your energy is leaking.
You know we're not taught, arewe how to find our own voice and
speak up for ourselves in anappropriate way?
Because there is an appropriateway in the workforce, there's
an appropriate way everywhere.
But you know it's about.
I would be saying to somebody,my advice to them would be okay.
First of all, write down whatyou're talking about.
(14:46):
When did it happen?
How did it happen?
How did it leave you feel?
And once you've got two orthree of them, then you need to
go and share with that personand go to HR and ask them to
come, a trusted colleague tocome with you.
Yeah, but find your voice.
And again, I'm looping thisback now to parenting, to school
(15:07):
, to preparing people to be inthe workplace.
We need to take on theresponsibility of teaching and
empowering kids and young peopleto find their voice.
Yeah, Mm-hmm.
You need to be able to speak upfor yourself, and it's not an
easy thing to do, but it's likeeverything else, you know once
(15:31):
you use that muscle.
It becomes easier.
It becomes easier once you'velearned how to do it.
But if you're going tochallenge in a working situation
because you believe you'rebeing bullied, you need evidence
.
You need how, why, where andwhen.
Yeah, you know what I mean.
You need to look at it from avery clear point of view, not an
emotional one, which when, ifyou are being bullied, is a very
(15:53):
, very hard thing to do.
Speaker 1 (15:55):
Yeah, that is where we're going to have to leave it
just now, but really reallysound advice.
Join us next time on BigQuestions, Short Answers with
Sian Jacquet and me, Andy.
Speaker 2 (16:08):
If you have any questions you want to ask,
please send them via the websitesianjacquetcom.
Speaker 1 (16:14):
If you enjoyed this podcast, please subscribe and
share it with everyone you know.
Speaker 2 (16:19):
We really do appreciate you sharing 15
minutes with us.
Speaker 1 (16:22):
And if you want to do a bit more learning, go on to
Sian's website sianjackaycom.
There's a course on values tocreate life you truly love.
I did it and it really does dowhat it says on the can.
Speaker 2 (16:33):
See you next time.
Popular Podcasts
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.