City councillor Michael Moses confront Indian Residential School denialism and discusses the book "Grave Error: How the Media Misled Us". He also talks about his work advocating for marginalized voices in Williams Lake, highlighting the crucial role of diverse perspectives in democratic governance and the ongoing dialogue on Indigenous rights and reconciliation in a conversation with Aaron Pete.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Michael Moses (00:00):
Welcome back to another episode of the Bigger
Than Me podcast.
Here is your host, aaron Peet.
Aaron Pete (00:07):
Today I have the privilege of sitting down with a
city councillor from WilliamsLake, british Columbia.
He is a member of the LowerNicola Indian Band and an
advocate for reconciliation.
We talk about the book GraveError how the Media Misled Us,
and the Truth About ResidentialSchools, which was published by
the True North Centre.
My guest today is Michael Moses.
(00:30):
Michael, it is such an honourto sit down with you.
We had the pleasure of speakingat a joint conference together.
I was really inspired with whatyou had to say.
But first would you mindintroducing yourself to the
listeners?
Michael Moses (00:44):
Yeah, thank you so much for having me here,
Aaron.
My name is Michael Moses.
I'm a Lower Nicola band member.
I'm also a city councilor inthe city of Williams Lake and a
director at large for the unionof BC municipalities.
What energizes me to get upevery day is to be able to stand
up for equity deserving groupsand to do the good fight for
(01:07):
Indigenous rights.
Aaron Pete (01:10):
Interesting.
Would you mind first outlininghow you started on that journey?
What made you interested inrunning for municipal council?
Michael Moses (01:18):
Yeah, sure, this started probably about two and a
half years ago in the city ofWilliams Lake when our prior
mayor and it's really importantto emphasize, prior on this one
started sharing some residentialschool denialism posts on his
Facebook.
And this hit really close tohome for me, as both of my
(01:39):
parents attended the KamloopsIndian Residential School
attended the Kamloops IndianResidential School, and this was
just shortly after the 215potential burials were
discovered at the KamloopsIndian Residential School.
I attended the next citycouncil meeting with the
Williams Lake First NationCookby, the chief, willie
(02:01):
Sellers, who I believe you'vealso had on your program, and I
sat behind him to provide moralsupport and I thought that night
that we were going to see agreat apology from a leader in
our community.
For the last several decadeshe's been our mayor, he's been
(02:24):
our MLA, he's been the presidentof many of our societies.
But rather than seeing a strongapology, I saw someone double
down and blame the local chiefsfor bringing it to the public
and saying that this was hisprivate Facebook so he should be
(02:47):
allowed to say whatever hewants on it.
And after that meeting I wenthome to my family and I cried
and I asked my mother how canpeople still get away with this?
I thought that we were furtherin the timeline than to have
(03:07):
this sort of issues still in thepublic, and not just at the
coffee shop around the corner,but right from the strongest
leaders in our region.
So that night was the firsttime that I considered getting
(03:36):
involved in local politics,because I realized that we were
going to need people to stand upfor any form of moving forward
from this.
Aaron Pete (03:42):
Where do you think those types of perspectives come
from?
I'm just wondering what drivessomeone to have that type of
perspective on an issue likethis.
Is it just that they want to bedisagreeable?
Is it that they're readingdifferent books than me?
Where do the origins of theseperspectives come from?
Were you able to delineate fromanything that he was saying
(04:02):
where and why he was motivatedto take those perspectives?
Michael Moses (04:07):
I can think of several reasons that someone
could have these perspectives.
The first one is just ignoranceand a lack of education.
The second one is exactly theopposite, in that they're very
educated and they're verylogical, so they'll take the
time to recognize some of thetruths from the situation and
(04:31):
then not the rest.
They'll take the logic from thesituation, but not the emotion.
They'll take the storyline asit's affected our country rather
than the storyline as it'saffected our people, um and the
the.
The third reason I can think ofthat that someone would take
(04:56):
this stance is um is is thatthey they've been taught to be
this way since a young age andthis form of education
unfortunately continues fromgeneration to generation.
Aaron Pete (05:14):
When you're thinking about running for politics.
I think it's a process.
You have that initial thoughtand then you kind of think about
the realities of being in theposition running a campaign,
figuring out what your positionswould be.
What was that part of theprocess like for you?
Michael Moses (05:32):
That process was a long haul and I'm really lucky
that I had a little over a yearto prepare for the coming
election and for the results ofthe election.
As soon as I recognized thatthis was a possibility, I made
sure to start taking the time toeducate myself on what the role
(05:57):
of city councillor is, whatthey do, what they can achieve,
where we can go from forwardwith the role into other roles.
Recognizing that I had a steeplearning curve ahead of me
because I hadn't been involvedin politics before, I made sure
(06:17):
to get mentorship from priorcity councillors, from regional
directors, from prior mayors,mlas, chiefs, band councillors,
presidents and executivedirectors of societies that I'm
involved with, and to take it asa full-time position to prepare
(06:39):
for the election, to preparefor the potential of being a
city councillor and I did thisfor a full year, combined with
attending every city councilmeeting as part of the gallery,
just as a learning experience,to know what I'd be getting into
, to make sure that, if I couldget into the room, that I'd be
(07:00):
entering it with my eyes wideopen and with the knowledge and
skill set to be effective.
Aaron Pete (07:06):
That's fascinating and so great to hear.
When you're considering puttingyour name forward for a
position like that, I think it'simportant to choose wisely who
you speak with, who you getadvice from on whether or not
you should put your name forward.
People who are going to bethoughtful and make sure that
they give you high qualityfeedback on how to move forward
and whether or not you shouldput your name forward.
People who are going to bethoughtful and make sure that
they give you high qualityfeedback on how to move forward
(07:28):
and whether or not you shouldput your name forward.
Like making sure that thosecore maybe five people are
really going to understand thevision and take their time and
support you.
What was that like?
To figure out who you weregoing to share this initial idea
with?
I'm going to put my nameforward for this position.
Michael Moses (07:48):
Oh, I thought you were just saying you're going
to put your name forward.
I was getting excited for amoment.
Um so, so I was reallyfortunate with, with the, the
support that I was beingprovided with, the people that I
had around me at first it wasmy family, and that that is um,
very, very strong to the corefor me, very supportive, very
loving, willing to question mychoice, to make sure.
(08:10):
I thought about it.
But early on I startedattending more meetings in the
region with the ConservationSociety, cmha that's, the
Canadian Mental HealthAssociation, the Friendship
Society.
And where I really wassuccessful in creating
(08:35):
relationships to surround myselfwith the right people was when
I attended a meeting for a grouphere called CC Care that's our
Caribou Chilcotin anti-racismgroup.
And when I attended thatmeeting and let them know my
intention, they immediatelyembraced me and began supporting
me in every way they can, andthat ended up essentially being
(08:58):
my campaign team, and now I'm sofortunate to call them
colleagues but also, I think,more importantly, to call them
friends, and their full supportand their knowledge and their
assistance were so integral inhelping me to prepare for the
(09:21):
campaign, in helping me win thecampaign and now also in helping
me as a councillor, to ensurethat I'm not only holding other
people accountable, but they'reholding me accountable, which is
really important.
Aaron Pete (09:35):
One challenge I think a lot of First Nations
people face is that they'repulled in two directions One is
to go serve on their local chiefand council for their own
nation, and the other is thatthey often pulled in two
directions One is to go serve ontheir local chief and council
for their own nation, and theother is that they often live in
municipalities that face someof the issues that you've
described.
How do you think people shouldgo about making this tough
(09:56):
decision to serve their owncommunity or to serve a broader
public in a municipality?
Michael Moses (10:02):
This is a really tough decision for people who
live closer to their community,because when a strong leader
decides to get involved in localgovernment or in provincial
government or something to thatextent, rather than their band's
government, they'redramatically lowering the
capacity and the strength oftheir own First Nations
(10:25):
government, and this is adecision that definitely can't
be taken lightly.
In my instance, I'm originallyfrom the Merit area as a member
of the Lower Nicola Indian Band,but my family moved to the
Caribou Chilcotin when I wasabout 10 years old, so I've been
displaced from our traditionalterritory for a bit over 30
(10:50):
years now.
So my choice between FirstNations governance or local
governance wasn't really anoption.
I couldn't choose between thetwo.
I had very strong leadership inmy family lineage and through my
(11:10):
father, my uncles, mygrandparents and all the way
back, almost every single one ofthem has been chief believe
that if I were to have remainedin merit, that I would be
serving my community in somecapacity.
I thought that that was nolonger an option after being
(11:31):
gone so long, but I feel like Ifound an alternate way to help
our people, and that's actuallyled to my ability to still help
the Lower Nicola Indian Band bybecoming a board of directors
for their developmentcorporation.
So I've been able to still beable to assist in ways that I
(11:54):
didn't foresee, and that's beensuch a blessing.
Aaron Pete (11:58):
What has it been like being on council?
You talked about how you spenta year trying to get comfortable
and understand the position.
Was it what you expected andwhat change do you feel you've
been able to bring in?
Michael Moses (12:10):
It was 100% what I expected when you take the
full year to prepare forsomething and to examine it
closely and to look at it fromall the different angles and to
get teachings from people thatapproached it from very many
different angles.
It really allowed me to have amindset inside the room that I
(12:37):
was already experienced at theposition before I had even
achieved it, before I hadreceived enough votes from our
community to get to enter theroom as a councillor instead of
as a constituent, just to watch.
But I feel like the biggestchange that immediately happens
(13:03):
as soon as a first nationsperson is enters these rooms as
one of the elected positions isthat the, the, the feel in the
room is automatically differentthe, the, the way that the, the
other counselors, the way thatthe staff approach situations.
(13:24):
It is as if they're alreadyholding themselves accountable
rather than waiting for someoneelse to hold them accountable.
Some of the conversations thatwould have happened three years
ago that I would have heard fromthe mayor, from the council,
from the staff.
(13:46):
They happen dramaticallydifferently now and they end in
a different trajectory, which ispretty exciting to recognize
that just having a First Nationsor Indigenous person in the
room is so effective and thenthat it gets dramatically larger
when the person has one of theelected positions and then it
(14:09):
gets dramatically larger againwhen that person has taken the
time to educate themselves onhow to be effective within the
system.
It's it's amazing to get towitness this firsthand, and I'm
really hopeful to be able toassist a lot of other Indigenous
people with reaching thesesorts of goals in the future.
(14:32):
My brain for the coming monthson whether or not I'll be taking
people away from their band'scapacity if I try to push them
towards municipal or provincialpolitics, and that's going to be
something I'll have to wrestlewith inside my own mind in the
(14:57):
coming time.
So I'm really glad you askedthat one as well.
Aaron Pete (15:00):
Yeah, I think that one is a particular challenge
because we have some reallygreat chiefs within our region,
and I think that one is aparticular challenge, because we
have some really great chiefswithin our region and I think a
lot of people wonder are theygoing to put their name forward
for a broader hat, or do theyfeel that their investments are
better served on a local, veryspecific level where, like right
now, from my perspective, it'stoo important?
(15:22):
I need to focus on making surethat my community rises out of
important.
I need to focus on making surethat my community rises out of
poverty.
I need to make sure that peoplehave food on their plates in my
community every single day andthat we're addressing some of
those crucial mental healthconcerns.
I couldn't even put anythingelse on the table with those
priorities in mind making surewe have housing, those type of
issues and I've been personallyinspired by the fact that you
(15:46):
can make a difference in yourown community.
I worked as a native courtworker for four years and saw
people addicted to drugs, peoplestruggling with homelessness,
people struggling with mentalhealth issues, people feeling
like they weren't able to betheir best selves and a lot of
the resources just weren'tcutting it.
Now I'm able to come in to acommunity and say we're going to
(16:07):
build the exact resources Iwish I had when I was a Native
court worker.
We're going to deliver theresources our people deserve and
need access to.
Michael Moses (16:18):
I want to take a moment here, Aaron, just to tell
you that I'm extremely proud ofthe work you're doing.
Aaron Pete (16:29):
Thank you.
That means a lot from somebodywho knows so many of the
challenges our communities faceWith being in this role.
You're now a part of a team ona council and you have to work
collaboratively and obviouslythere was people with different
perspectives on the previouscouncil.
Do you feel you were embracedby that team?
Do you feel like you're acohesive team now that's working
(16:52):
towards common goals?
What has that experience beenlike?
Michael Moses (16:56):
Yeah, for the most part, our team is cohesive.
We definitely disagree on manytopics, the most divisive topics
that would generally be seen asright versus left.
We do still have that line kindof drawn in the sand where it's
hard to go across the otherside and hard to convince anyone
(17:16):
else to either.
But I feel like that is justdemocracy at work, and if we
didn't have people disagreeingon topics like that, then I
think our council would actuallybe doing a disservice to our
community.
So, having the many differentviews and the many different
(17:37):
angles and the debate, the veryhealthy debate, is so important.
Healthy debate is so important.
In regard to being embraced byour current council, I've been
really fortunate that I believethis is true Even with the few
that I debate with the hardest,and that the public might even
view us as being almost likenemesis to each other.
(18:00):
I still feel like that we havea healthy relationship where we
respect each other and once thedebate is complete, then the
debate is over and we move on tothe next topic and if the
divisiveness isn't in the topic,we end up being a very strong
team Rather than a team who isstrong through debate.
(18:21):
We were strong throughcollaboration, then, and either
way is extremely important.
In this current council we havesix councillors and the mayor,
so we have seven total.
In the last election I'll be alittle bit bold here the mayor
kind of sunk his own ship whenhe decided to make such bold
(18:44):
statements regarding residentialschools.
He sunk the ship of half of thecouncil with them because they
supported him and didn't ask himto step down.
So in our current council weactually have five out of seven
that weren't on council in theprevious election.
Our mayor is South Asian, I'mFirst Nations and we have four
(19:09):
women on council.
So we have such a diversecouncil that the outcomes of the
votes can be surprising attimes.
But the support that I'vereceived on First Nations topics
in specific has been absolutelyastounding, and the caring from
(19:30):
the rest of the Council inregard to these topics and to
myself has been a great surprise, because I didn't quite know
what to expect and when I wouldenter this room as a Councillor,
especially considering thehistory of the prior council and
the region that I live in,which is pretty fraught with
(19:58):
discrimination.
So having a council that hasbeen so supportive has been an
amazing surprise and somethingnow that I really rely on it now
.
Aaron Pete (20:14):
One of the pieces I really admire about you and that
really stood out to me when wewere on that panel together was
your willingness to talk aboutthe elephant in the room.
I find in this time there is alot of fear or concern about
having the tough conversationwhen we're talking about the
previous mayor and his opinionson residential school.
(20:35):
It went by way of election.
The general population was ableto vote on which ideas they
agreed with and disagreed with.
We have another community rightnow that's facing a very
similar issue, but there's talksof demanding resignations and
that seems somewhat different tome than holding an election
where the population is able tovote on which ideas they agree
(20:57):
with and disagree with.
Do you see a difference there,or do you think it's right that
they're calling for theresignation of the mayor of
another community?
Michael Moses (21:05):
this is in the city of quenelle.
Yes, um, I think both are right.
I I think that if, if the, ifthe rest of council or a
significant portion of of theirconstituents demand a
resignation, that I think that'swithin their right.
But it is also ultimately themayor's decision in the end
(21:28):
whether he does resign or not.
So demanding it doesn'tnecessarily make it happen, as
we also found out in WilliamsLake a few years ago.
But waiting, waiting for theelection a few more years goes
by a lot faster than we oftenwant it to or expect it to.
(21:49):
So that election will comearound the corner very quickly.
And just to send a message outto Cornell start lining up your
strongest candidates, get themready, because if you want to
see change, be a part of it, getthat campaign running.
See if you can organize avolunteer team and be the change
(22:14):
.
Aaron Pete (22:15):
Beautiful.
Do you think that peopleholding these positions should
basically force them out ofoffice?
And the reason that I ask thisis I do worry about us
developing more divisivepositions where the right feels
like they're not allowed to saycertain things or they're not
(22:36):
allowed to view certain things,or their political perspectives
aren't acceptable in the generalpublic anymore, and then it
encourages more anger, moreanimosity, more.
If you say that they'll tearyou down, they'll destroy your
life, like it creates this senseof us versus them rather than,
to your point, education,discussions, breaking these
(22:57):
issues down.
Do you have any concerns thatmoving in that direction can
create more divisiveness overthe long term, in the direction
of Requiring resignation, askingfor resignations, pushing for
those ideas to be pushed downand eliminated, and that people
can't hold those in publicoffice?
Michael Moses (23:19):
Yeah, that's a tough call.
One of the things is that thiscan be somewhat different in
each local government, as wehave control over our own code
of conducts.
So what is good for Quesnelmight not be the best for Hope,
and vice versa.
So if they see the need to havesome teeth to their code of
(23:43):
conduct, then they can put it inthere themselves, in in
William's Lake, where, where wetry to avoid allowing the code
of conduct to be used as aweapon.
So if, if, if we were to allowtoo much teeth into a code of
(24:04):
conduct, it will actually makeit so that our process is a lot
weaker Because, as you said,people will be scared to voice
their views, and some of theseviews may be disagreeable, they
may not be palatable, butthey're views that unfortunately
exist.
(24:24):
They're part of our reality andwe need to hear them to be able
to move forward from them.
We need to hear them to be ableto educate people about them.
Whether we agree with them ornot is besides the point, as
long as we can move forward andin a caring fashion, and educate
(24:45):
each other and support eachother.
Aaron Pete (24:48):
You're one of my favorite people.
That was fantastic.
Are we able to talk about thisbook, grave Error?
As you pointed out at thatpanel, it is one of the most
popular books in Canada rightnow.
It is becoming very quickly abestseller and, for better or
worse, I think it's importantthat we talk about it.
When you started hearing aboutthis book, how did you feel?
Michael Moses (25:10):
It was reminiscent of the first time
that my parents started teachingme about residential schools.
The anguish that this book hascaused even just to my family is
pretty dramatic and I don'thave a very large family
(25:50):
affected by this book so far.
You can feel the passion, youcan feel the pain, you can feel
the frustration in their voiceswhen they talk about this book.
I would recommend that anyonewho is interested in hearing
about Indigenous response tothis book to go and watch the
meeting I think it was from thestart of April of 2024 of this
(26:11):
year the city council meetingfrom Quesnel.
It's on YouTube.
You'll get to see severalchiefs talk about the book.
You'll get to hear manyresidential school survivors,
(26:48):
many elders, many culturalleaders talk about this book and
the effect and a verysignificant portion of the rest
of the country.
I've been excited for these lastfew years of doing work in
local government and regionalgovernment, provincial, federal,
to be able to forward topics onIndigenous rights, indigenous
(27:11):
culture, indigenous education,indigenous language, indigenous
land all these topics that I'vebeen so passionate about in
forwarding.
I see some of them stalling nowbecause of this book.
I see the forward motion isslowing down.
I see in Quesnel that some ofthe bands won't even work with
the local government there.
(27:32):
Now, and this is something thatwe're only at the tip of the
iceberg regarding this book.
It's going to continue as thebook spreads across our regions,
our communities, our country,and I really hope that we can
get ahead of this in some way inregards to education, in
(27:56):
regards to support networks.
That was my first reaction tothat book.
Aaron Pete (28:06):
My suspicion is I felt that this has been coming
for some time now, and thereason that I feel like it was
eventually going to come isbecause one thing that they do
say that I agree with is thatthere was a moral panic and
there was an initial reaction tothe 215 that went global and
(28:29):
you just can't even imagineanyone being able to ask any
questions during that period oftime.
There's, there was no.
Well, how many are we sure?
What was the evidence used like?
That wasn't a focus and andperhaps it shouldn't have been
at this time.
We're coming to realizations asa country and we need to to
reflect on that and take that inthat a lot of people were
(28:51):
learning about indianresidential schools for the
first time during that 215discussion, and so there needed
to be a space for that.
But when I look at landacknowledgements, I don't like
them, because what I think theydo too often is they force
people to say things they don'tunderstand, they don't care
about, and they can getresentful around that.
(29:12):
Some people like I see them putit in their email signature, I
see them say it at meetings andthey'll be like I like to
declare the unseated and theyare not engaged in what they're
saying are the unseated and theyare not engaged in what they're
saying.
And when you get people tostart to say things that they
don't believe or they don'tunderstand, you start to get
that resentment why do I have todo this?
Or, like I've seen, people saythe name wrong and they're
(29:34):
trying to learn how to pronouncea First Nations word and then
somebody goes you're saying itwrongly, you're doing that wrong
.
And then people go whoa, okay,I thought I was doing the right
thing here.
Now I'm getting called out, nowI'm upset and now I don't want
to participate.
I had concerns about thatbecause I'd watch professors in
my university do it and not careabout what they were saying,
and it's like we don't want thattype of reconciliation.
(29:56):
We want people at the table whogenuinely want to be there.
And then there there has beenvery little discussion about the
complexities of Indianresidential school.
Certainly, the overwhelmingfeeling of everybody I know was
that Indian residential schoolswere horrible, but I do have a
few people that I know who havebeen able to share their
(30:17):
family's experience, and it wassomewhat what they describe in
the book.
Now I think what they did inthe book is over-exaggerate
everything positive abouteverything in there, but it's
almost a reaction to theoverwhelming narrative that has
existed, and so to me the bookisn't surprising that eventually
, the silent minority waseventually going to speak up,
(30:38):
and this speaks to so manypeople who are tired of land
acknowledgements, tired offeeling like they're settlers on
land that theirgreat-grandparents have been on
for a long time.
It's a reaction to that.
Do you see what I'm saying, ordo I sound like I'm out to lunch
?
Michael Moses (30:52):
No, I can definitely see what you're
saying.
The way that the media grabbedhold of the 215 and spread it
across the country or eveninternationally was very quick
and it likely was a little bitcalculated, in the way that it
(31:15):
was spread, to be very fantasticand very extreme topic.
It was something that ourcountry and the rest of the
(31:36):
world needed to see and to hear.
Could it have been done with alittle bit more insight and
after a little bit more research, and perhaps after the vans had
decided how they would go aboutexamining any evidence that
they were finding?
Definitely it could have beenheld back and done a little bit
(31:58):
more appropriately, a little bitmore accurately, a way that the
topics in this book wouldn'texist, but unfortunately that
wasn't the way it happened.
So now we have these topicswhere we're still in the process
of gathering evidence, wherewe're still not completely out
(32:24):
of the dark information-wise,and I don't know why this is
such a major issue.
I recognize that not having theevidence being tangible and
being examinable is somethingthat is extremely attacked in,
(32:48):
not only in this book but on alot of the articles of the
authors across all theirplatforms.
But the reason that this is isbecause the bans are in complete
control of how and when thisinformation will be gathered,
(33:10):
uncovered and released, andthey're taking into account very
important things such as theactual residential school
survivors, the families of thepeople who passed away, their
cultures.
(33:31):
These are topics that they haveto take into account before they
just decide to start diggingand to find what's in there,
(33:52):
that there's so much nuance tohow this is to be done that we
are being a little short-sightedand a little impatient when we
want to see the evidence now,when we want to know whether the
arguments in this book arevalid or not.
And, to be honest with you,this book is not important
enough.
This book is not powerfulenough.
This book is not significantenough to force the hand of the
First Nations bands to do thisany quicker.
(34:14):
This is to be done on theschedule and on the healing time
of First Nations people, not onthe demand of people who want
evidence, not on the time ofpeople who want to cause
divisiveness, not on theschedule of people who want to
(34:35):
undermine DRIPA, who want toundermine UNDRIP, trc, mmiw, who
want to discredit our strongestIndigenous leaders.
They do not get to choose whenand how this happens, and I can
understand how that frustratesthem.
Aaron Pete (34:56):
One of the other pieces that I felt was a piece
that I actually agreed with themon was that they wrote that 68
churches were burned orvandalized after the 215
discovery, and I don't thinkthat that's ever an appropriate
reaction by the populace tostart to take these steps.
(35:16):
I think that, at least from whatI've understood from
interviewing a historian, keithCarlson, that Indigenous people
were actually and this againcan't speak for everybody in
Canada or everybody in BC, butwithin the Stolo region were
very interested in Christianitybecause it solved some community
problems, one of which wasarranged marriages.
(35:38):
Within our region, this was adifferent path.
This meant love could leadrather than arranged marriages
and forced marriages, and sothere were pieces of it that
were really insightful andvaluable to cultures where they
were willing to adapt to theirbelief system for it.
So I disagreed with the 68churches being burned or
vandalized.
I understand where people areso frustrated and when they look
(36:00):
at the church as the place thatled the way on so much of this
horrific stuff.
I just don't think that type ofviolence is the answer.
Do you agree with that?
Michael Moses (36:09):
Yeah, I agree, violence should rarely be the
answer to anything.
Burning of churches does notraise us above the topic topic.
(36:31):
I feel this was probably apained and traumatic and
knee-jerk response to theinformation that they were
finding out about that.
It's not a reaction that Iwould take or condone.
However, this is a differenttopic than what's in the rest of
the book.
This is one of the many times inthe book where they take a
(36:51):
factoid that is actually notsignificant to the topic that
they're talking about, butthere's a line between the two
and they try to overblow it sothat it is the topic and it and
it makes it so that they pointout one wrong thing, a big, a
big wrong thing, don't get mewrong a wrong thing about a
(37:14):
response to the topic but notabout the topic.
Um, that you'll see this rinsedand repeated through the book,
where they take a tidbit that isrelated to the topic but not
the topic, and then throw amagnifying glass over it or take
a quote or a factoid that isabout the topic, magnify it and
(37:38):
then state their opinions on itas if it's part of the fact, and
so I agree with you that theseweren't good responses.
Burning churches is not the wayto go.
But if we're talking about thebook, then talking about the
burning of the churches is wrong.
(37:59):
But it's not significant to the215.
It's not significant to theresidential schools.
It was a response to thesetopics.
Aaron Pete (38:10):
One of the parts that really grossed me out was
the way they talked about us yetagain being impoverished and
illiterate.
Was just how do you write thisin a book Like, how do you say
this about a people Like were wemillionaires with Bugattis?
(38:32):
No, but were we rich in ourculture, in our sense of
community, in our connection andliving off of the land?
I would say yes, and part ofthe reason that Indigenous
people find themselvesimpoverished today and over the
past 150 years is very muchbecause of the Canadian
(38:53):
government, like within againthis territory.
We had the Douglas treatieswhere they had anticipatory
reserves that gave space forIndigenous people, for them and
their potential children, sothey were larger sized reserves.
Then Joseph Trutch comes in andhe minimalizes all of those up
to 90% in some cases, and so theland in which we inhabit is so
(39:17):
much smaller in many of ourcommunities than what was
supposed to be.
And to say that that is our ownfault, I think is incredibly
inconsiderate and irresponsible.
And then to talk about ourliteracy rates we were some of
the best communicators becausewe came from an oral tradition,
so we may not have had a focuson writing, but that's not a
(39:39):
consequence of us not beinginterested in writing.
It's that our whole culture waspredicated on a different style
of communication than otherones, and it doesn't make theirs
better Like.
I wrote a whole paper on this inlaw school.
The problem with the process ofwriting everything down
although it's often held up asthe best path is that what you
end up with is people who don'tknow what Shakespeare meant, who
(40:03):
have a Bible and who have neverread it, who have all of these
books that they've neveractually opened.
The benefit of an oral cultureis that you pass everything that
you know on verbally, throughstories and through connections
over time, and so there areadvantages to an oral culture.
The downside is that you don'thave that documentation, that
200 years later you might nothave something written down.
(40:24):
So what was your reaction tosome of the rhetoric about
Indigenous people in the book?
Michael Moses (40:30):
In regards specifically to what you're
talking about, about beingimpoverished and uneducated,
these are school systems andeconomic systems that we were
displaced into and we've onlyhad 150 years to react.
I'm sure we both know many FirstNations people who have
(40:56):
excelled in the education system, who have excelled in business,
who have excelled in theeducation system, who have
excelled in business, who haveexcelled in politics.
These type of growth, they taketime, and I believe that we're
on a very positive trajectory inthis regard, especially as we
(41:19):
have leaders much like yourselfbeing willing to utilize their
education and utilize all thetime in their day to ensure that
their people have all theopportunities that they can get.
150 years is just a blip in thetime of our people in Canada, in
(41:41):
the country now called Canada,and I think you'll find that
when you double that amount oftime, these rates of poverty,
these rates of education, thenumbers will be dramatically
improved.
And I just want to pointsomething out really quickly
that I believe the last statsI've heard on illiteracy in
(42:05):
Canada is that one third of ourcountry has a reading level
below grade eight.
Less than 5% of the people inthis country are Indigenous.
I'm sure you can correlatethose maths to each other, to
the.
It's not indigenous people inour country that are lowering
(42:26):
the literacy rate and I want toread that paper that you wrote
in law school.
If you could forward it to me,I would read it for my own
education.
Aaron Pete (42:40):
So thank you Fantastic.
The other really heavy part isaround the word genocide.
It's been talked about, I think, by many different people and I
think it ultimately is verycomplicated and I don't know if
there is a correct answer whenwe're having this conversation.
(43:03):
They point to the fact that thestatistics of Indigenous people
, of the general population,actually increased over the past
150 years that we saw, I thinkthe numbers are around 150,000
Indigenous people 150 years ago,all the way up until like 1.4
million in 2021, something likethat, and so to their argument,
(43:26):
if it's a genocide, you wouldexpect to see that number drop.
During the Holocaust, you wouldhave seen the numbers of Jewish
people decreasing, notincreasing.
The word cultural genocide hasbeen used.
The word cultural genocide hasbeen used.
There's different terms aroundthat idea that the removing of
our culture had healthconsequences.
(43:47):
I think you might see that thestatistics of genocide, of death
rates among indigenous peoplebeing incredibly high in
comparison to the population,which would go to the point that
it is a genocide.
Speaking from my own experience, my grandmother had many
children and she was hurt in herheart from the experiences in
(44:08):
Indian residential school.
I don't think she was the bestmother to those children, and
those children had worse healthoutcomes as a consequence of
that.
So many of these things arebeing passed on, and this is
where it leads into this idea ofintergenerational trauma
contributing to many of theseissues.
How do you feel about the termgenocide being used in this
(44:28):
regard?
Do you think it's accurate anddo you think they're just
playing statistical games whenthey say that our population
actually increased over the past150 years?
Michael Moses (44:37):
Definitely statistical games are being used
.
As I pointed out earlier, theauthors in the book love to
point out a factoid, magnifyonto it, add on their opinions
as if they're parts of the factand they ignore the surrounding
facts of that one factoid.
(44:58):
Regarding genocide or notgenocide, cultural genocide,
which they love to point out inthe book, isn't a real term.
Um, terminology gets created asit's required.
Uh, if, if we haven't seen thisbefore, if we haven't seen this
(45:20):
before.
That is why the term now exists.
When we talk about culturalgenocide, we're not necessarily
talking about the loss of livesor the gain of lives or the
number of First Nations peoplethat exist across the country.
We're talking about the loss oflanguage.
We're talking about the loss oflanguage.
(45:41):
We're talking about the loss ofculture, the loss of land
rights, all of these topics thathave been more or less taken
away from our people inabundance Not completely taken,
(46:03):
but to a point where we'restruggling to re-retrieve them
to have our children learn thelanguages.
I'm embarrassed to say that Idon't know Inklikatmuk or
Segweppenstein.
I don't know either of myparents' languages, and saying
that out loud right now makes merecognize that I need to
(46:26):
dedicate myself to those topicsa little bit more, because if I
can't set that example, how canI expect anyone else to anyone
else to, when they share theirviews that genocide did not
occur or that cultural genocidedoes not exist?
(46:48):
These are the views andopinions of people that are very
much so trying to causedivisiveness, and we don't need
to look much further than that.
The government of Canada andthe Catholic Church have both
referred to these instances asversions of genocide that we
(47:15):
have some people who want tofocus in on specific facts,
twist other facts and tomisinform people by claiming
they're misinformed.
I don't actually care whattheir view is on whether they
(47:36):
say it's genocide or not.
Their opinion on the matter isnot relevant to me.
When the government of Canadaclaims it, when the Catholic
Church claims it and when theAssembly of First Nations claims
it, I'm sated.
Aaron Pete (47:55):
What were your feelings?
I know you've read a majorityof this book and are just
finishing it.
What were your feelings readingit throughout?
I was surprised.
I felt like I was going to beable to sit down and read this
book and I had a feeling I wasgoing to know some of the
positions and understand.
(48:16):
But the big the taste in mymouth that I'm left with is just
like a lack of care, like alack of like feeling that
people's lives actually matteredand that, like we, we have
these stories.
Like it also clearly tells methey don't know very many
(48:37):
Indigenous people who have gonethrough these things.
Because, like I can't go intomy community and not hear some
of these stories come upthroughout my day.
Like I just can't not interactwith some of the very real
experiences people had in theseplaces.
And I mean, one of the numbersthat they put out is $4.7
(48:58):
trillion over the past 150 yearsthat have been given to
Indigenous people.
Like, does it look like we'vegot some sort of $4.7 trillion
sitting around somewhere?
Like if you added up all of andagain this is where you speak
of like misleading information,if you added up all the money
the federal government has spentand all the money the
provincial governments havespent over the past 150 years.
(49:20):
It would be some absurd numberlike 400 trillion dollars spent
over, like it would be an unrulynumber that you wouldn't be
able to put into context.
So I don't find 4.7 trilliondollars to indigenous
communities over 150 years veryenlightening as to what that
actually looks like now.
Do I think that there'scorruption within First Nation
(49:41):
communities and band councilsnot always acting in the best
interest of the people?
Absolutely.
I wrote an article on that.
I think that needs to be calledout.
That doesn't mean it's everycommunity and even the people
who I think are mismanagingtheir money.
They're not millionaires.
They're not managing like aninsane amount of money.
It's still not enough to managethe schools and the systems
(50:04):
that we have to operate withinFirst Nation communities, and I
say that as somebody who does alot of this work and looks at
the budgets that we're dealingwith.
So what was your general senseof the book?
Grave Error?
Michael Moses (50:16):
Yeah, I'm almost complete the book and, like
yourself, I thought that I wasgoing to be able to sit down
read it in one sitting, becauseit's not a very big book and
it's not very hard to understand.
It's pretty plain language,very to the point, very populist
(50:37):
.
The book is a hard read andit's caused me some loss of
sleep.
It's caused me some stressthrough my days.
My mother has also tried toread the book and I'll take a
(51:00):
moment to give a quick backstoryon that.
Both my mother and my fatherattended the Kamloops Indian
Residential School and as littleas two generations ago from
myself, from my mother's family,we've had people who died at
the Kamloops Indian ResidentialSchool and did not return home
(51:21):
to our families.
I just recently said that inpublic for the first time at a
city council meeting.
It's generally not somethingthat I talk about in public.
When my mom tried to read thebook it it made her cry, it
(51:42):
caused her a lot of anguish andI asked her to to just let me
finish it and let me shouldershoulder this, and I think it's
(52:10):
something that I'm hopeful thatour Indigenous leaders, cultural
, political knowledge keepersthat, if they feel up to the
task, that they ought tounderstand the points of view
that are out there and againstus.
The book is causing a lot ofdivisiveness and hatred to
(52:32):
become allowable, and I thinkthat's one of the points of the
book is to give people an outletto be able to feel allowed to
share these views and allowed toshare these emotions and
allowed to point fingers atpeople.
Um, if, if, our, if our leaderscan take this on our shoulders,
(52:56):
I would hope that ourresidential school survivors,
our elders, our ancestors won'thave to.
I don't feel like this issomething that we of us would,
(53:17):
and I would ask that Indigenouspeople who read this book or who
choose not to, that they choosenot to partake in the hatred
that this book is causing,hatred that this book is causing
(53:39):
, whether it's in response tohatred pointed towards us or
hatred pointed towards theschools or whoever they deem
responsible for them.
I don't want us to be set backdecades in our healing, and it
(54:05):
feels like that that thepotential of this book could
cause that.
My, my hope is that we can leanon each other in this time, to
to lean on our, our culturalleaders, our political leaders
and our knowledge knowledgekeepers, to support each other,
to let each other know that whatwe've gone through has been
(54:28):
traumatic and it has been wrongand it has caused us so much
pain, but that we can stillsupport each other, we can still
be thriving members of society,we can still give and receive
love, and we don't need to bebaited into the hatred.
Because that feels like whatthis book is trying to do.
(54:51):
It's trying to undermine UNDRIP, trying to undermine TRC,
trying to undermine anyindividuals or governments
trying to undermine TRC, tryingto undermine any individuals or
governments who want to holdthose up.
It's trying to slam ourgreatest leaders, such as Leah
Ghazan, roseanne, casimir Murray, sinclair and so on forth.
(55:15):
We need to continue to viewthese leaders as exactly what
they are, and those are the mostexperienced and the strongest
of us that are standing up forus on a day-to-day basis, doing
some of the hardest jobs that wecan imagine and sacrificing all
(55:35):
the time in their lives toensure that the rest of us can
live a little bit easier.
And I really hope that thisbook does not achieve, in
lessening any of their impactand any of their hard work that
(55:56):
we've been so fortunate to getto witness over this generation
their hard work that we've beenso fortunate to get to witness
over this generation.
Aaron Pete (56:06):
What would you say to the authors of this book if
you were able to sit down withthem and have a conversation
with them?
Because I think it's importantthat we remember that we're all
just people.
We all want love and affectionand care, and we might disagree
on very important issues, butwe're all still just people.
We want to come home to aloving family.
We want to be financiallycomfortable.
This is all just a humanendeavor.
(56:27):
What would you say to theauthors?
Michael Moses (56:33):
I'm so torn and in one vein I don't want to
speak to them at all.
In another, I would love totell them stories of my family,
to tell them experiences of myparents, my uncles and aunties,
(56:57):
my grandparents, my uncles andaunties, my grandparents.
To tell them names of people inour family that were loved and
adored and cherished and did notcome back home, show them the
(57:18):
difficulties just from myfamily's experience not a
pan-Indian experience, but justour personal experiences and
unfortunately recognize that itwill probably fall on deaf ears
and that they'll write anotherarticle about it After that
(57:39):
conversation.
They would probably write anarticle about me and my family
and downplay the results,downplay the pain, the trauma.
This leads me back to the firstvein where I'm not sure that
the conversation can happen.
(58:03):
Me back to the first vein whereI'm not sure that the
conversation can happen.
But I recognize theconversations like that need to
happen so that we can moveforward together, so that we can
heal together, so that we canlearn together, we can educate
each other.
Because I see some of the logicin the book, I see some of the
brilliance from the authors andI think that together so much
(58:31):
healing could be done and somany years can be saved from the
need of more healing, becausethat's what this book is going
to cause is the need for morehealing, more time, more
reconciliation and I'm not sureI'm up to that conversation
(58:53):
personally, but I know theconversations need to happen and
maybe some of the people thatthey're so targeted in the book
are the people they should behaving those conversations with.
Aaron Pete (59:07):
One of my big takeaways from the book is the
importance of theseconversations, because I can so
clearly see that they feel likethey're being silenced, like
they're not being listened to,that there isn't.
There's no discussion of theother side of the story or other
perspectives in it, and so itfeels like they picked up a bat
(59:29):
and they came out swingingbecause they want their
perspectives to be heard, and Ithink they leaned very heavily
on pushing the politics of itall in order to to get that
message across.
So I don't think that this bookwas unbiased, but I also don't
think that the media coverage ofthis was unbiased either.
I think they have a point inthat, and the part I hope they
(59:52):
could take away is we didn't dothat.
That wasn't driven by FirstNations people.
It's the same thing I get whenpeople go what am I supposed to
call you?
Is it Indigenous?
Is it Indian?
Is it Aboriginal?
Is it First Nation?
What am I supposed to call you?
And I always try and remindpeople when I get those type of
questions.
There's no First Nationcommunity sitting around there
(01:00:13):
saying what should we change thename to?
This week, we've got biggerfish to fry than that.
That is usually the provincialor federal government going.
How can we be more politicallycorrect?
How can we be more respectful?
I know community members whosay I'm still an indian.
It says it on my status card.
I don't care what you call melike, I still have those family
members and they have a point tomake.
The last question I have onthis point is what advice do you
(01:00:38):
have for people who are goingto be picking up the book Grave
Error after our conversation andwanting to understand these
issues further?
What recommendations do youhave?
Michael Moses (01:00:48):
All right, I love this question For people who
are going to pick up this book.
I feel like there's a fewthings that you're going to need
to do.
You're going to have to alsopick up other books.
Make sure you make sure youpick up books from Bev sellers.
Make sure you pick up booksfrom Phyllis Webstead, from Bob
(01:01:11):
Joseph, from JodyWilson-Raybould.
Make sure that you're you'regoing to ground yourself in, in
knowledge and in caring fromauthors who have actually
experienced these topics, whohave either attended the schools
, had parents who attended theschools, who have worked with
(01:01:33):
organizations like the TRC orIRSS, who have been part of the
governments, who have beentrying to move forward from this
, and also be ready to deal withthe emotions that are going to
(01:01:55):
result from reading this book.
Make sure that you have peoplethat you care about, that care
about you, that you have familymembers around, that you're
ready to take care of yourselfafterwards, because some of the
topics in this book are verypainful.
Some of the views are verypointed and they're sharp and
(01:02:17):
they're pointed at you.
So make sure you're ready tocontinue healing after in a very
intentional way.
That would be my advice Educateyourself more and take care of
yourself.
Aaron Pete (01:02:34):
Michael, I find you to be so thoughtful, patient.
I feel that energy of wisdomcoming from you.
How can people follow the workthat you're doing and the impact
you're having within yourregion and the messages you're
trying to get?
Michael Moses (01:02:51):
out.
Thank you so much, aaron.
Some ways that you can followme are on.
It feels so petty to shout outmy social medias after this
conversation.
These topics that we're talkingabout are so important and
they're so, so overwhelming thatasking people to follow me on
(01:03:15):
LinkedIn feels so ridiculousright now.
But you can find me on all themajor social medias.
My website is michaelmosesca.
I have a newsletter there.
I post every few weeks on thenewsletter about positive
Indigenous culture and currentevents.
I try to bring some brightnessinto the world through education
(01:03:42):
and on Indigenous topics,through positivity, and I think
I need some of that.
I need some more of that rightnow, and I think that the people
who will pick up this book alsowill as well.
So come share this journey withme.
We can support each other.
Aaron Pete (01:04:01):
Michael, it was a pleasure to sit down with you.
I'm sure this is the first ofmany very deep, thoughtful
conversations.
Again, I find that when a booklike this comes out, the
reaction is burn it, get rid ofit, let's not talk about it,
let's hide it under the bed orsomething.
And your willingness to talkabout it and try and deconstruct
some of these ideas and respond, I just find that incredibly
(01:04:23):
admirable.
So I'm very proud to call you afriend and I hope you have a
better day, but thank you forcoming on and being willing to
discuss these difficult topics.
Thank you.
Michael Moses (01:04:34):
Aaron.
Welcome back to another episode of the Bigger
Than Me podcast.
Here is your host, aaron Peet.
Aaron Pete (00:07):
Today I have the privilege of sitting down with a
city councillor from WilliamsLake, british Columbia.
He is a member of the LowerNicola Indian Band and an
advocate for reconciliation.
We talk about the book GraveError how the Media Misled Us,
and the Truth About ResidentialSchools, which was published by
the True North Centre.
My guest today is Michael Moses.
(00:30):
Michael, it is such an honourto sit down with you.
We had the pleasure of speakingat a joint conference together.
I was really inspired with whatyou had to say.
But first would you mindintroducing yourself to the
listeners?
Michael Moses (00:44):
Yeah, thank you so much for having me here,
Aaron.
My name is Michael Moses.
I'm a Lower Nicola band member.
I'm also a city councilor inthe city of Williams Lake and a
director at large for the unionof BC municipalities.
What energizes me to get upevery day is to be able to stand
up for equity deserving groupsand to do the good fight for
(01:07):
Indigenous rights.
Aaron Pete (01:10):
Interesting.
Would you mind first outlininghow you started on that journey?
What made you interested inrunning for municipal council?
Michael Moses (01:18):
Yeah, sure, this started probably about two and a
half years ago in the city ofWilliams Lake when our prior
mayor and it's really importantto emphasize, prior on this one
started sharing some residentialschool denialism posts on his
Facebook.
And this hit really close tohome for me, as both of my
(01:39):
parents attended the KamloopsIndian Residential School
attended the Kamloops IndianResidential School, and this was
just shortly after the 215potential burials were
discovered at the KamloopsIndian Residential School.
I attended the next citycouncil meeting with the
Williams Lake First NationCookby, the chief, willie
(02:01):
Sellers, who I believe you'vealso had on your program, and I
sat behind him to provide moralsupport and I thought that night
that we were going to see agreat apology from a leader in
our community.
For the last several decadeshe's been our mayor, he's been
(02:24):
our MLA, he's been the presidentof many of our societies.
But rather than seeing a strongapology, I saw someone double
down and blame the local chiefsfor bringing it to the public
and saying that this was hisprivate Facebook so he should be
(02:47):
allowed to say whatever hewants on it.
And after that meeting I wenthome to my family and I cried
and I asked my mother how canpeople still get away with this?
I thought that we were furtherin the timeline than to have
(03:07):
this sort of issues still in thepublic, and not just at the
coffee shop around the corner,but right from the strongest
leaders in our region.
So that night was the firsttime that I considered getting
(03:36):
involved in local politics,because I realized that we were
going to need people to stand upfor any form of moving forward
from this.
Aaron Pete (03:42):
Where do you think those types of perspectives come
from?
I'm just wondering what drivessomeone to have that type of
perspective on an issue likethis.
Is it just that they want to bedisagreeable?
Is it that they're readingdifferent books than me?
Where do the origins of theseperspectives come from?
Were you able to delineate fromanything that he was saying
(04:02):
where and why he was motivatedto take those perspectives?
Michael Moses (04:07):
I can think of several reasons that someone
could have these perspectives.
The first one is just ignoranceand a lack of education.
The second one is exactly theopposite, in that they're very
educated and they're verylogical, so they'll take the
time to recognize some of thetruths from the situation and
(04:31):
then not the rest.
They'll take the logic from thesituation, but not the emotion.
They'll take the storyline asit's affected our country rather
than the storyline as it'saffected our people, um and the
the.
The third reason I can think ofthat that someone would take
(04:56):
this stance is um is is thatthey they've been taught to be
this way since a young age andthis form of education
unfortunately continues fromgeneration to generation.
Aaron Pete (05:14):
When you're thinking about running for politics.
I think it's a process.
You have that initial thoughtand then you kind of think about
the realities of being in theposition running a campaign,
figuring out what your positionswould be.
What was that part of theprocess like for you?
Michael Moses (05:32):
That process was a long haul and I'm really lucky
that I had a little over a yearto prepare for the coming
election and for the results ofthe election.
As soon as I recognized thatthis was a possibility, I made
sure to start taking the time toeducate myself on what the role
(05:57):
of city councillor is, whatthey do, what they can achieve,
where we can go from forwardwith the role into other roles.
Recognizing that I had a steeplearning curve ahead of me
because I hadn't been involvedin politics before, I made sure
(06:17):
to get mentorship from priorcity councillors, from regional
directors, from prior mayors,mlas, chiefs, band councillors,
presidents and executivedirectors of societies that I'm
involved with, and to take it asa full-time position to prepare
(06:39):
for the election, to preparefor the potential of being a
city councillor and I did thisfor a full year, combined with
attending every city councilmeeting as part of the gallery,
just as a learning experience,to know what I'd be getting into
, to make sure that, if I couldget into the room, that I'd be
(07:00):
entering it with my eyes wideopen and with the knowledge and
skill set to be effective.
Aaron Pete (07:06):
That's fascinating and so great to hear.
When you're considering puttingyour name forward for a
position like that, I think it'simportant to choose wisely who
you speak with, who you getadvice from on whether or not
you should put your name forward.
People who are going to bethoughtful and make sure that
they give you high qualityfeedback on how to move forward
and whether or not you shouldput your name forward.
People who are going to bethoughtful and make sure that
they give you high qualityfeedback on how to move forward
(07:28):
and whether or not you shouldput your name forward.
Like making sure that thosecore maybe five people are
really going to understand thevision and take their time and
support you.
What was that like?
To figure out who you weregoing to share this initial idea
with?
I'm going to put my nameforward for this position.
Michael Moses (07:48):
Oh, I thought you were just saying you're going
to put your name forward.
I was getting excited for amoment.
Um so, so I was reallyfortunate with, with the, the
support that I was beingprovided with, the people that I
had around me at first it wasmy family, and that that is um,
very, very strong to the corefor me, very supportive, very
loving, willing to question mychoice, to make sure.
(08:10):
I thought about it.
But early on I startedattending more meetings in the
region with the ConservationSociety, cmha that's, the
Canadian Mental HealthAssociation, the Friendship
Society.
And where I really wassuccessful in creating
(08:35):
relationships to surround myselfwith the right people was when
I attended a meeting for a grouphere called CC Care that's our
Caribou Chilcotin anti-racismgroup.
And when I attended thatmeeting and let them know my
intention, they immediatelyembraced me and began supporting
me in every way they can, andthat ended up essentially being
(08:58):
my campaign team, and now I'm sofortunate to call them
colleagues but also, I think,more importantly, to call them
friends, and their full supportand their knowledge and their
assistance were so integral inhelping me to prepare for the
(09:21):
campaign, in helping me win thecampaign and now also in helping
me as a councillor, to ensurethat I'm not only holding other
people accountable, but they'reholding me accountable, which is
really important.
Aaron Pete (09:35):
One challenge I think a lot of First Nations
people face is that they'repulled in two directions One is
to go serve on their local chiefand council for their own
nation, and the other is thatthey often pulled in two
directions One is to go serve ontheir local chief and council
for their own nation, and theother is that they often live in
municipalities that face someof the issues that you've
described.
How do you think people shouldgo about making this tough
(09:56):
decision to serve their owncommunity or to serve a broader
public in a municipality?
Michael Moses (10:02):
This is a really tough decision for people who
live closer to their community,because when a strong leader
decides to get involved in localgovernment or in provincial
government or something to thatextent, rather than their band's
government, they'redramatically lowering the
capacity and the strength oftheir own First Nations
(10:25):
government, and this is adecision that definitely can't
be taken lightly.
In my instance, I'm originallyfrom the Merit area as a member
of the Lower Nicola Indian Band,but my family moved to the
Caribou Chilcotin when I wasabout 10 years old, so I've been
displaced from our traditionalterritory for a bit over 30
(10:50):
years now.
So my choice between FirstNations governance or local
governance wasn't really anoption.
I couldn't choose between thetwo.
I had very strong leadership inmy family lineage and through my
(11:10):
father, my uncles, mygrandparents and all the way
back, almost every single one ofthem has been chief believe
that if I were to have remainedin merit, that I would be
serving my community in somecapacity.
I thought that that was nolonger an option after being
(11:31):
gone so long, but I feel like Ifound an alternate way to help
our people, and that's actuallyled to my ability to still help
the Lower Nicola Indian Band bybecoming a board of directors
for their developmentcorporation.
So I've been able to still beable to assist in ways that I
(11:54):
didn't foresee, and that's beensuch a blessing.
Aaron Pete (11:58):
What has it been like being on council?
You talked about how you spenta year trying to get comfortable
and understand the position.
Was it what you expected andwhat change do you feel you've
been able to bring in?
Michael Moses (12:10):
It was 100% what I expected when you take the
full year to prepare forsomething and to examine it
closely and to look at it fromall the different angles and to
get teachings from people thatapproached it from very many
different angles.
It really allowed me to have amindset inside the room that I
(12:37):
was already experienced at theposition before I had even
achieved it, before I hadreceived enough votes from our
community to get to enter theroom as a councillor instead of
as a constituent, just to watch.
But I feel like the biggestchange that immediately happens
(13:03):
as soon as a first nationsperson is enters these rooms as
one of the elected positions isthat the, the, the feel in the
room is automatically differentthe, the, the way that the, the
other counselors, the way thatthe staff approach situations.
(13:24):
It is as if they're alreadyholding themselves accountable
rather than waiting for someoneelse to hold them accountable.
Some of the conversations thatwould have happened three years
ago that I would have heard fromthe mayor, from the council,
from the staff.
(13:46):
They happen dramaticallydifferently now and they end in
a different trajectory, which ispretty exciting to recognize
that just having a First Nationsor Indigenous person in the
room is so effective and thenthat it gets dramatically larger
when the person has one of theelected positions and then it
(14:09):
gets dramatically larger againwhen that person has taken the
time to educate themselves onhow to be effective within the
system.
It's it's amazing to get towitness this firsthand, and I'm
really hopeful to be able toassist a lot of other Indigenous
people with reaching thesesorts of goals in the future.
(14:32):
My brain for the coming monthson whether or not I'll be taking
people away from their band'scapacity if I try to push them
towards municipal or provincialpolitics, and that's going to be
something I'll have to wrestlewith inside my own mind in the
(14:57):
coming time.
So I'm really glad you askedthat one as well.
Aaron Pete (15:00):
Yeah, I think that one is a particular challenge
because we have some reallygreat chiefs within our region,
and I think that one is aparticular challenge, because we
have some really great chiefswithin our region and I think a
lot of people wonder are theygoing to put their name forward
for a broader hat, or do theyfeel that their investments are
better served on a local, veryspecific level where, like right
now, from my perspective, it'stoo important?
(15:22):
I need to focus on making surethat my community rises out of
important.
I need to focus on making surethat my community rises out of
poverty.
I need to make sure that peoplehave food on their plates in my
community every single day andthat we're addressing some of
those crucial mental healthconcerns.
I couldn't even put anythingelse on the table with those
priorities in mind making surewe have housing, those type of
issues and I've been personallyinspired by the fact that you
(15:46):
can make a difference in yourown community.
I worked as a native courtworker for four years and saw
people addicted to drugs, peoplestruggling with homelessness,
people struggling with mentalhealth issues, people feeling
like they weren't able to betheir best selves and a lot of
the resources just weren'tcutting it.
Now I'm able to come in to acommunity and say we're going to
(16:07):
build the exact resources Iwish I had when I was a Native
court worker.
We're going to deliver theresources our people deserve and
need access to.
Michael Moses (16:18):
I want to take a moment here, Aaron, just to tell
you that I'm extremely proud ofthe work you're doing.
Aaron Pete (16:29):
Thank you.
That means a lot from somebodywho knows so many of the
challenges our communities faceWith being in this role.
You're now a part of a team ona council and you have to work
collaboratively and obviouslythere was people with different
perspectives on the previouscouncil.
Do you feel you were embracedby that team?
Do you feel like you're acohesive team now that's working
(16:52):
towards common goals?
What has that experience beenlike?
Michael Moses (16:56):
Yeah, for the most part, our team is cohesive.
We definitely disagree on manytopics, the most divisive topics
that would generally be seen asright versus left.
We do still have that line kindof drawn in the sand where it's
hard to go across the otherside and hard to convince anyone
(17:16):
else to either.
But I feel like that is justdemocracy at work, and if we
didn't have people disagreeingon topics like that, then I
think our council would actuallybe doing a disservice to our
community.
So, having the many differentviews and the many different
(17:37):
angles and the debate, the veryhealthy debate, is so important.
Healthy debate is so important.
In regard to being embraced byour current council, I've been
really fortunate that I believethis is true Even with the few
that I debate with the hardest,and that the public might even
view us as being almost likenemesis to each other.
(18:00):
I still feel like that we havea healthy relationship where we
respect each other and once thedebate is complete, then the
debate is over and we move on tothe next topic and if the
divisiveness isn't in the topic,we end up being a very strong
team Rather than a team who isstrong through debate.
(18:21):
We were strong throughcollaboration, then, and either
way is extremely important.
In this current council we havesix councillors and the mayor,
so we have seven total.
In the last election I'll be alittle bit bold here the mayor
kind of sunk his own ship whenhe decided to make such bold
(18:44):
statements regarding residentialschools.
He sunk the ship of half of thecouncil with them because they
supported him and didn't ask himto step down.
So in our current council weactually have five out of seven
that weren't on council in theprevious election.
Our mayor is South Asian, I'mFirst Nations and we have four
(19:09):
women on council.
So we have such a diversecouncil that the outcomes of the
votes can be surprising attimes.
But the support that I'vereceived on First Nations topics
in specific has been absolutelyastounding, and the caring from
(19:30):
the rest of the Council inregard to these topics and to
myself has been a great surprise, because I didn't quite know
what to expect and when I wouldenter this room as a Councillor,
especially considering thehistory of the prior council and
the region that I live in,which is pretty fraught with
(19:58):
discrimination.
So having a council that hasbeen so supportive has been an
amazing surprise and somethingnow that I really rely on it now
.
Aaron Pete (20:14):
One of the pieces I really admire about you and that
really stood out to me when wewere on that panel together was
your willingness to talk aboutthe elephant in the room.
I find in this time there is alot of fear or concern about
having the tough conversationwhen we're talking about the
previous mayor and his opinionson residential school.
(20:35):
It went by way of election.
The general population was ableto vote on which ideas they
agreed with and disagreed with.
We have another community rightnow that's facing a very
similar issue, but there's talksof demanding resignations and
that seems somewhat different tome than holding an election
where the population is able tovote on which ideas they agree
(20:57):
with and disagree with.
Do you see a difference there,or do you think it's right that
they're calling for theresignation of the mayor of
another community?
Michael Moses (21:05):
this is in the city of quenelle.
Yes, um, I think both are right.
I I think that if, if the, ifthe rest of council or a
significant portion of of theirconstituents demand a
resignation, that I think that'swithin their right.
But it is also ultimately themayor's decision in the end
(21:28):
whether he does resign or not.
So demanding it doesn'tnecessarily make it happen, as
we also found out in WilliamsLake a few years ago.
But waiting, waiting for theelection a few more years goes
by a lot faster than we oftenwant it to or expect it to.
(21:49):
So that election will comearound the corner very quickly.
And just to send a message outto Cornell start lining up your
strongest candidates, get themready, because if you want to
see change, be a part of it, getthat campaign running.
See if you can organize avolunteer team and be the change
(22:14):
.
Aaron Pete (22:15):
Beautiful.
Do you think that peopleholding these positions should
basically force them out ofoffice?
And the reason that I ask thisis I do worry about us
developing more divisivepositions where the right feels
like they're not allowed to saycertain things or they're not
(22:36):
allowed to view certain things,or their political perspectives
aren't acceptable in the generalpublic anymore, and then it
encourages more anger, moreanimosity, more.
If you say that they'll tearyou down, they'll destroy your
life, like it creates this senseof us versus them rather than,
to your point, education,discussions, breaking these
(22:57):
issues down.
Do you have any concerns thatmoving in that direction can
create more divisiveness overthe long term, in the direction
of Requiring resignation, askingfor resignations, pushing for
those ideas to be pushed downand eliminated, and that people
can't hold those in publicoffice?
Michael Moses (23:19):
Yeah, that's a tough call.
One of the things is that thiscan be somewhat different in
each local government, as wehave control over our own code
of conducts.
So what is good for Quesnelmight not be the best for Hope,
and vice versa.
So if they see the need to havesome teeth to their code of
(23:43):
conduct, then they can put it inthere themselves, in in
William's Lake, where, where wetry to avoid allowing the code
of conduct to be used as aweapon.
So if, if, if we were to allowtoo much teeth into a code of
(24:04):
conduct, it will actually makeit so that our process is a lot
weaker Because, as you said,people will be scared to voice
their views, and some of theseviews may be disagreeable, they
may not be palatable, butthey're views that unfortunately
exist.
(24:24):
They're part of our reality andwe need to hear them to be able
to move forward from them.
We need to hear them to be ableto educate people about them.
Whether we agree with them ornot is besides the point, as
long as we can move forward andin a caring fashion, and educate
(24:45):
each other and support eachother.
Aaron Pete (24:48):
You're one of my favorite people.
That was fantastic.
Are we able to talk about thisbook, grave Error?
As you pointed out at thatpanel, it is one of the most
popular books in Canada rightnow.
It is becoming very quickly abestseller and, for better or
worse, I think it's importantthat we talk about it.
When you started hearing aboutthis book, how did you feel?
Michael Moses (25:10):
It was reminiscent of the first time
that my parents started teachingme about residential schools.
The anguish that this book hascaused even just to my family is
pretty dramatic and I don'thave a very large family
(25:50):
affected by this book so far.
You can feel the passion, youcan feel the pain, you can feel
the frustration in their voiceswhen they talk about this book.
I would recommend that anyonewho is interested in hearing
about Indigenous response tothis book to go and watch the
meeting I think it was from thestart of April of 2024 of this
(26:11):
year the city council meetingfrom Quesnel.
It's on YouTube.
You'll get to see severalchiefs talk about the book.
You'll get to hear manyresidential school survivors,
(26:48):
many elders, many culturalleaders talk about this book and
the effect and a verysignificant portion of the rest
of the country.
I've been excited for these lastfew years of doing work in
local government and regionalgovernment, provincial, federal,
to be able to forward topics onIndigenous rights, indigenous
(27:11):
culture, indigenous education,indigenous language, indigenous
land all these topics that I'vebeen so passionate about in
forwarding.
I see some of them stalling nowbecause of this book.
I see the forward motion isslowing down.
I see in Quesnel that some ofthe bands won't even work with
the local government there.
(27:32):
Now, and this is something thatwe're only at the tip of the
iceberg regarding this book.
It's going to continue as thebook spreads across our regions,
our communities, our country,and I really hope that we can
get ahead of this in some way inregards to education, in
(27:56):
regards to support networks.
That was my first reaction tothat book.
Aaron Pete (28:06):
My suspicion is I felt that this has been coming
for some time now, and thereason that I feel like it was
eventually going to come isbecause one thing that they do
say that I agree with is thatthere was a moral panic and
there was an initial reaction tothe 215 that went global and
(28:29):
you just can't even imagineanyone being able to ask any
questions during that period oftime.
There's, there was no.
Well, how many are we sure?
What was the evidence used like?
That wasn't a focus and andperhaps it shouldn't have been
at this time.
We're coming to realizations asa country and we need to to
reflect on that and take that inthat a lot of people were
(28:51):
learning about indianresidential schools for the
first time during that 215discussion, and so there needed
to be a space for that.
But when I look at landacknowledgements, I don't like
them, because what I think theydo too often is they force
people to say things they don'tunderstand, they don't care
about, and they can getresentful around that.
(29:12):
Some people like I see them putit in their email signature, I
see them say it at meetings andthey'll be like I like to
declare the unseated and theyare not engaged in what they're
saying are the unseated and theyare not engaged in what they're
saying.
And when you get people tostart to say things that they
don't believe or they don'tunderstand, you start to get
that resentment why do I have todo this?
Or, like I've seen, people saythe name wrong and they're
(29:34):
trying to learn how to pronouncea First Nations word and then
somebody goes you're saying itwrongly, you're doing that wrong
.
And then people go whoa, okay,I thought I was doing the right
thing here.
Now I'm getting called out, nowI'm upset and now I don't want
to participate.
I had concerns about thatbecause I'd watch professors in
my university do it and not careabout what they were saying,
and it's like we don't want thattype of reconciliation.
(29:56):
We want people at the table whogenuinely want to be there.
And then there there has beenvery little discussion about the
complexities of Indianresidential school.
Certainly, the overwhelmingfeeling of everybody I know was
that Indian residential schoolswere horrible, but I do have a
few people that I know who havebeen able to share their
(30:17):
family's experience, and it wassomewhat what they describe in
the book.
Now I think what they did inthe book is over-exaggerate
everything positive abouteverything in there, but it's
almost a reaction to theoverwhelming narrative that has
existed, and so to me the bookisn't surprising that eventually
, the silent minority waseventually going to speak up,
(30:38):
and this speaks to so manypeople who are tired of land
acknowledgements, tired offeeling like they're settlers on
land that theirgreat-grandparents have been on
for a long time.
It's a reaction to that.
Do you see what I'm saying, ordo I sound like I'm out to lunch
?
Michael Moses (30:52):
No, I can definitely see what you're
saying.
The way that the media grabbedhold of the 215 and spread it
across the country or eveninternationally was very quick
and it likely was a little bitcalculated, in the way that it
(31:15):
was spread, to be very fantasticand very extreme topic.
It was something that ourcountry and the rest of the
(31:36):
world needed to see and to hear.
Could it have been done with alittle bit more insight and
after a little bit more research, and perhaps after the vans had
decided how they would go aboutexamining any evidence that
they were finding?
Definitely it could have beenheld back and done a little bit
(31:58):
more appropriately, a little bitmore accurately, a way that the
topics in this book wouldn'texist, but unfortunately that
wasn't the way it happened.
So now we have these topicswhere we're still in the process
of gathering evidence, wherewe're still not completely out
(32:24):
of the dark information-wise,and I don't know why this is
such a major issue.
I recognize that not having theevidence being tangible and
being examinable is somethingthat is extremely attacked in,
(32:48):
not only in this book but on alot of the articles of the
authors across all theirplatforms.
But the reason that this is isbecause the bans are in complete
control of how and when thisinformation will be gathered,
(33:10):
uncovered and released, andthey're taking into account very
important things such as theactual residential school
survivors, the families of thepeople who passed away, their
cultures.
(33:31):
These are topics that they haveto take into account before they
just decide to start diggingand to find what's in there,
(33:52):
that there's so much nuance tohow this is to be done that we
are being a little short-sightedand a little impatient when we
want to see the evidence now,when we want to know whether the
arguments in this book arevalid or not.
And, to be honest with you,this book is not important
enough.
This book is not powerfulenough.
This book is not significantenough to force the hand of the
First Nations bands to do thisany quicker.
(34:14):
This is to be done on theschedule and on the healing time
of First Nations people, not onthe demand of people who want
evidence, not on the time ofpeople who want to cause
divisiveness, not on theschedule of people who want to
(34:35):
undermine DRIPA, who want toundermine UNDRIP, trc, mmiw, who
want to discredit our strongestIndigenous leaders.
They do not get to choose whenand how this happens, and I can
understand how that frustratesthem.
Aaron Pete (34:56):
One of the other pieces that I felt was a piece
that I actually agreed with themon was that they wrote that 68
churches were burned orvandalized after the 215
discovery, and I don't thinkthat that's ever an appropriate
reaction by the populace tostart to take these steps.
(35:16):
I think that, at least from whatI've understood from
interviewing a historian, keithCarlson, that Indigenous people
were actually and this againcan't speak for everybody in
Canada or everybody in BC, butwithin the Stolo region were
very interested in Christianitybecause it solved some community
problems, one of which wasarranged marriages.
(35:38):
Within our region, this was adifferent path.
This meant love could leadrather than arranged marriages
and forced marriages, and sothere were pieces of it that
were really insightful andvaluable to cultures where they
were willing to adapt to theirbelief system for it.
So I disagreed with the 68churches being burned or
vandalized.
I understand where people areso frustrated and when they look
(36:00):
at the church as the place thatled the way on so much of this
horrific stuff.
I just don't think that type ofviolence is the answer.
Do you agree with that?
Michael Moses (36:09):
Yeah, I agree, violence should rarely be the
answer to anything.
Burning of churches does notraise us above the topic topic.
(36:31):
I feel this was probably apained and traumatic and
knee-jerk response to theinformation that they were
finding out about that.
It's not a reaction that Iwould take or condone.
However, this is a differenttopic than what's in the rest of
the book.
This is one of the many times inthe book where they take a
(36:51):
factoid that is actually notsignificant to the topic that
they're talking about, butthere's a line between the two
and they try to overblow it sothat it is the topic and it and
it makes it so that they pointout one wrong thing, a big, a
big wrong thing, don't get mewrong a wrong thing about a
(37:14):
response to the topic but notabout the topic.
Um, that you'll see this rinsedand repeated through the book,
where they take a tidbit that isrelated to the topic but not
the topic, and then throw amagnifying glass over it or take
a quote or a factoid that isabout the topic, magnify it and
(37:38):
then state their opinions on itas if it's part of the fact, and
so I agree with you that theseweren't good responses.
Burning churches is not the wayto go.
But if we're talking about thebook, then talking about the
burning of the churches is wrong.
(37:59):
But it's not significant to the215.
It's not significant to theresidential schools.
It was a response to thesetopics.
Aaron Pete (38:10):
One of the parts that really grossed me out was
the way they talked about us yetagain being impoverished and
illiterate.
Was just how do you write thisin a book Like, how do you say
this about a people Like were wemillionaires with Bugattis?
(38:32):
No, but were we rich in ourculture, in our sense of
community, in our connection andliving off of the land?
I would say yes, and part ofthe reason that Indigenous
people find themselvesimpoverished today and over the
past 150 years is very muchbecause of the Canadian
(38:53):
government, like within againthis territory.
We had the Douglas treatieswhere they had anticipatory
reserves that gave space forIndigenous people, for them and
their potential children, sothey were larger sized reserves.
Then Joseph Trutch comes in andhe minimalizes all of those up
to 90% in some cases, and so theland in which we inhabit is so
(39:17):
much smaller in many of ourcommunities than what was
supposed to be.
And to say that that is our ownfault, I think is incredibly
inconsiderate and irresponsible.
And then to talk about ourliteracy rates we were some of
the best communicators becausewe came from an oral tradition,
so we may not have had a focuson writing, but that's not a
(39:39):
consequence of us not beinginterested in writing.
It's that our whole culture waspredicated on a different style
of communication than otherones, and it doesn't make theirs
better Like.
I wrote a whole paper on this inlaw school.
The problem with the process ofwriting everything down
although it's often held up asthe best path is that what you
end up with is people who don'tknow what Shakespeare meant, who
(40:03):
have a Bible and who have neverread it, who have all of these
books that they've neveractually opened.
The benefit of an oral cultureis that you pass everything that
you know on verbally, throughstories and through connections
over time, and so there areadvantages to an oral culture.
The downside is that you don'thave that documentation, that
200 years later you might nothave something written down.
(40:24):
So what was your reaction tosome of the rhetoric about
Indigenous people in the book?
Michael Moses (40:30):
In regards specifically to what you're
talking about, about beingimpoverished and uneducated,
these are school systems andeconomic systems that we were
displaced into and we've onlyhad 150 years to react.
I'm sure we both know many FirstNations people who have
(40:56):
excelled in the education system, who have excelled in business,
who have excelled in theeducation system, who have
excelled in business, who haveexcelled in politics.
These type of growth, they taketime, and I believe that we're
on a very positive trajectory inthis regard, especially as we
(41:19):
have leaders much like yourselfbeing willing to utilize their
education and utilize all thetime in their day to ensure that
their people have all theopportunities that they can get.
150 years is just a blip in thetime of our people in Canada, in
(41:41):
the country now called Canada,and I think you'll find that
when you double that amount oftime, these rates of poverty,
these rates of education, thenumbers will be dramatically
improved.
And I just want to pointsomething out really quickly
that I believe the last statsI've heard on illiteracy in
(42:05):
Canada is that one third of ourcountry has a reading level
below grade eight.
Less than 5% of the people inthis country are Indigenous.
I'm sure you can correlatethose maths to each other, to
the.
It's not indigenous people inour country that are lowering
(42:26):
the literacy rate and I want toread that paper that you wrote
in law school.
If you could forward it to me,I would read it for my own
education.
Aaron Pete (42:40):
So thank you Fantastic.
The other really heavy part isaround the word genocide.
It's been talked about, I think, by many different people and I
think it ultimately is verycomplicated and I don't know if
there is a correct answer whenwe're having this conversation.
(43:03):
They point to the fact that thestatistics of Indigenous people
, of the general population,actually increased over the past
150 years that we saw, I thinkthe numbers are around 150,000
Indigenous people 150 years ago,all the way up until like 1.4
million in 2021, something likethat, and so to their argument,
(43:26):
if it's a genocide, you wouldexpect to see that number drop.
During the Holocaust, you wouldhave seen the numbers of Jewish
people decreasing, notincreasing.
The word cultural genocide hasbeen used.
The word cultural genocide hasbeen used.
There's different terms aroundthat idea that the removing of
our culture had healthconsequences.
(43:47):
I think you might see that thestatistics of genocide, of death
rates among indigenous peoplebeing incredibly high in
comparison to the population,which would go to the point that
it is a genocide.
Speaking from my own experience, my grandmother had many
children and she was hurt in herheart from the experiences in
(44:08):
Indian residential school.
I don't think she was the bestmother to those children, and
those children had worse healthoutcomes as a consequence of
that.
So many of these things arebeing passed on, and this is
where it leads into this idea ofintergenerational trauma
contributing to many of theseissues.
How do you feel about the termgenocide being used in this
(44:28):
regard?
Do you think it's accurate anddo you think they're just
playing statistical games whenthey say that our population
actually increased over the past150 years?
Michael Moses (44:37):
Definitely statistical games are being used
.
As I pointed out earlier, theauthors in the book love to
point out a factoid, magnifyonto it, add on their opinions
as if they're parts of the factand they ignore the surrounding
facts of that one factoid.
(44:58):
Regarding genocide or notgenocide, cultural genocide,
which they love to point out inthe book, isn't a real term.
Um, terminology gets created asit's required.
Uh, if, if we haven't seen thisbefore, if we haven't seen this
(45:20):
before.
That is why the term now exists.
When we talk about culturalgenocide, we're not necessarily
talking about the loss of livesor the gain of lives or the
number of First Nations peoplethat exist across the country.
We're talking about the loss oflanguage.
We're talking about the loss oflanguage.
(45:41):
We're talking about the loss ofculture, the loss of land
rights, all of these topics thathave been more or less taken
away from our people inabundance Not completely taken,
(46:03):
but to a point where we'restruggling to re-retrieve them
to have our children learn thelanguages.
I'm embarrassed to say that Idon't know Inklikatmuk or
Segweppenstein.
I don't know either of myparents' languages, and saying
that out loud right now makes merecognize that I need to
(46:26):
dedicate myself to those topicsa little bit more, because if I
can't set that example, how canI expect anyone else to anyone
else to, when they share theirviews that genocide did not
occur or that cultural genocidedoes not exist?
(46:48):
These are the views andopinions of people that are very
much so trying to causedivisiveness, and we don't need
to look much further than that.
The government of Canada andthe Catholic Church have both
referred to these instances asversions of genocide that we
(47:15):
have some people who want tofocus in on specific facts,
twist other facts and tomisinform people by claiming
they're misinformed.
I don't actually care whattheir view is on whether they
(47:36):
say it's genocide or not.
Their opinion on the matter isnot relevant to me.
When the government of Canadaclaims it, when the Catholic
Church claims it and when theAssembly of First Nations claims
it, I'm sated.
Aaron Pete (47:55):
What were your feelings?
I know you've read a majorityof this book and are just
finishing it.
What were your feelings readingit throughout?
I was surprised.
I felt like I was going to beable to sit down and read this
book and I had a feeling I wasgoing to know some of the
positions and understand.
(48:16):
But the big the taste in mymouth that I'm left with is just
like a lack of care, like alack of like feeling that
people's lives actually matteredand that, like we, we have
these stories.
Like it also clearly tells methey don't know very many
(48:37):
Indigenous people who have gonethrough these things.
Because, like I can't go intomy community and not hear some
of these stories come upthroughout my day.
Like I just can't not interactwith some of the very real
experiences people had in theseplaces.
And I mean, one of the numbersthat they put out is $4.7
(48:58):
trillion over the past 150 yearsthat have been given to
Indigenous people.
Like, does it look like we'vegot some sort of $4.7 trillion
sitting around somewhere?
Like if you added up all of andagain this is where you speak
of like misleading information,if you added up all the money
the federal government has spentand all the money the
provincial governments havespent over the past 150 years.
(49:20):
It would be some absurd numberlike 400 trillion dollars spent
over, like it would be an unrulynumber that you wouldn't be
able to put into context.
So I don't find 4.7 trilliondollars to indigenous
communities over 150 years veryenlightening as to what that
actually looks like now.
Do I think that there'scorruption within First Nation
(49:41):
communities and band councilsnot always acting in the best
interest of the people?
Absolutely.
I wrote an article on that.
I think that needs to be calledout.
That doesn't mean it's everycommunity and even the people
who I think are mismanagingtheir money.
They're not millionaires.
They're not managing like aninsane amount of money.
It's still not enough to managethe schools and the systems
(50:04):
that we have to operate withinFirst Nation communities, and I
say that as somebody who does alot of this work and looks at
the budgets that we're dealingwith.
So what was your general senseof the book?
Grave Error?
Michael Moses (50:16):
Yeah, I'm almost complete the book and, like
yourself, I thought that I wasgoing to be able to sit down
read it in one sitting, becauseit's not a very big book and
it's not very hard to understand.
It's pretty plain language,very to the point, very populist
(50:37):
.
The book is a hard read andit's caused me some loss of
sleep.
It's caused me some stressthrough my days.
My mother has also tried toread the book and I'll take a
(51:00):
moment to give a quick backstoryon that.
Both my mother and my fatherattended the Kamloops Indian
Residential School and as littleas two generations ago from
myself, from my mother's family,we've had people who died at
the Kamloops Indian ResidentialSchool and did not return home
(51:21):
to our families.
I just recently said that inpublic for the first time at a
city council meeting.
It's generally not somethingthat I talk about in public.
When my mom tried to read thebook it it made her cry, it
(51:42):
caused her a lot of anguish andI asked her to to just let me
finish it and let me shouldershoulder this, and I think it's
(52:10):
something that I'm hopeful thatour Indigenous leaders, cultural
, political knowledge keepersthat, if they feel up to the
task, that they ought tounderstand the points of view
that are out there and againstus.
The book is causing a lot ofdivisiveness and hatred to
(52:32):
become allowable, and I thinkthat's one of the points of the
book is to give people an outletto be able to feel allowed to
share these views and allowed toshare these emotions and
allowed to point fingers atpeople.
Um, if, if, our, if our leaderscan take this on our shoulders,
(52:56):
I would hope that ourresidential school survivors,
our elders, our ancestors won'thave to.
I don't feel like this issomething that we of us would,
(53:17):
and I would ask that Indigenouspeople who read this book or who
choose not to, that they choosenot to partake in the hatred
that this book is causing,hatred that this book is causing
(53:39):
, whether it's in response tohatred pointed towards us or
hatred pointed towards theschools or whoever they deem
responsible for them.
I don't want us to be set backdecades in our healing, and it
(54:05):
feels like that that thepotential of this book could
cause that.
My, my hope is that we can leanon each other in this time, to
to lean on our, our culturalleaders, our political leaders
and our knowledge knowledgekeepers, to support each other,
to let each other know that whatwe've gone through has been
(54:28):
traumatic and it has been wrongand it has caused us so much
pain, but that we can stillsupport each other, we can still
be thriving members of society,we can still give and receive
love, and we don't need to bebaited into the hatred.
Because that feels like whatthis book is trying to do.
(54:51):
It's trying to undermine UNDRIP, trying to undermine TRC,
trying to undermine anyindividuals or governments
trying to undermine TRC, tryingto undermine any individuals or
governments who want to holdthose up.
It's trying to slam ourgreatest leaders, such as Leah
Ghazan, roseanne, casimir Murray, sinclair and so on forth.
(55:15):
We need to continue to viewthese leaders as exactly what
they are, and those are the mostexperienced and the strongest
of us that are standing up forus on a day-to-day basis, doing
some of the hardest jobs that wecan imagine and sacrificing all
(55:35):
the time in their lives toensure that the rest of us can
live a little bit easier.
And I really hope that thisbook does not achieve, in
lessening any of their impactand any of their hard work that
(55:56):
we've been so fortunate to getto witness over this generation
their hard work that we've beenso fortunate to get to witness
over this generation.
Aaron Pete (56:06):
What would you say to the authors of this book if
you were able to sit down withthem and have a conversation
with them?
Because I think it's importantthat we remember that we're all
just people.
We all want love and affectionand care, and we might disagree
on very important issues, butwe're all still just people.
We want to come home to aloving family.
We want to be financiallycomfortable.
This is all just a humanendeavor.
(56:27):
What would you say to theauthors?
Michael Moses (56:33):
I'm so torn and in one vein I don't want to
speak to them at all.
In another, I would love totell them stories of my family,
to tell them experiences of myparents, my uncles and aunties,
(56:57):
my grandparents, my uncles andaunties, my grandparents.
To tell them names of people inour family that were loved and
adored and cherished and did notcome back home, show them the
(57:18):
difficulties just from myfamily's experience not a
pan-Indian experience, but justour personal experiences and
unfortunately recognize that itwill probably fall on deaf ears
and that they'll write anotherarticle about it After that
(57:39):
conversation.
They would probably write anarticle about me and my family
and downplay the results,downplay the pain, the trauma.
This leads me back to the firstvein where I'm not sure that
the conversation can happen.
(58:03):
Me back to the first vein whereI'm not sure that the
conversation can happen.
But I recognize theconversations like that need to
happen so that we can moveforward together, so that we can
heal together, so that we canlearn together, we can educate
each other.
Because I see some of the logicin the book, I see some of the
brilliance from the authors andI think that together so much
(58:31):
healing could be done and somany years can be saved from the
need of more healing, becausethat's what this book is going
to cause is the need for morehealing, more time, more
reconciliation and I'm not sureI'm up to that conversation
(58:53):
personally, but I know theconversations need to happen and
maybe some of the people thatthey're so targeted in the book
are the people they should behaving those conversations with.
Aaron Pete (59:07):
One of my big takeaways from the book is the
importance of theseconversations, because I can so
clearly see that they feel likethey're being silenced, like
they're not being listened to,that there isn't.
There's no discussion of theother side of the story or other
perspectives in it, and so itfeels like they picked up a bat
(59:29):
and they came out swingingbecause they want their
perspectives to be heard, and Ithink they leaned very heavily
on pushing the politics of itall in order to to get that
message across.
So I don't think that this bookwas unbiased, but I also don't
think that the media coverage ofthis was unbiased either.
I think they have a point inthat, and the part I hope they
(59:52):
could take away is we didn't dothat.
That wasn't driven by FirstNations people.
It's the same thing I get whenpeople go what am I supposed to
call you?
Is it Indigenous?
Is it Indian?
Is it Aboriginal?
Is it First Nation?
What am I supposed to call you?
And I always try and remindpeople when I get those type of
questions.
There's no First Nationcommunity sitting around there
(01:00:13):
saying what should we change thename to?
This week, we've got biggerfish to fry than that.
That is usually the provincialor federal government going.
How can we be more politicallycorrect?
How can we be more respectful?
I know community members whosay I'm still an indian.
It says it on my status card.
I don't care what you call melike, I still have those family
members and they have a point tomake.
The last question I have onthis point is what advice do you
(01:00:38):
have for people who are goingto be picking up the book Grave
Error after our conversation andwanting to understand these
issues further?
What recommendations do youhave?
Michael Moses (01:00:48):
All right, I love this question For people who
are going to pick up this book.
I feel like there's a fewthings that you're going to need
to do.
You're going to have to alsopick up other books.
Make sure you make sure youpick up books from Bev sellers.
Make sure you pick up booksfrom Phyllis Webstead, from Bob
(01:01:11):
Joseph, from JodyWilson-Raybould.
Make sure that you're you'regoing to ground yourself in, in
knowledge and in caring fromauthors who have actually
experienced these topics, whohave either attended the schools
, had parents who attended theschools, who have worked with
(01:01:33):
organizations like the TRC orIRSS, who have been part of the
governments, who have beentrying to move forward from this
, and also be ready to deal withthe emotions that are going to
(01:01:55):
result from reading this book.
Make sure that you have peoplethat you care about, that care
about you, that you have familymembers around, that you're
ready to take care of yourselfafterwards, because some of the
topics in this book are verypainful.
Some of the views are verypointed and they're sharp and
(01:02:17):
they're pointed at you.
So make sure you're ready tocontinue healing after in a very
intentional way.
That would be my advice Educateyourself more and take care of
yourself.
Aaron Pete (01:02:34):
Michael, I find you to be so thoughtful, patient.
I feel that energy of wisdomcoming from you.
How can people follow the workthat you're doing and the impact
you're having within yourregion and the messages you're
trying to get?
Michael Moses (01:02:51):
out.
Thank you so much, aaron.
Some ways that you can followme are on.
It feels so petty to shout outmy social medias after this
conversation.
These topics that we're talkingabout are so important and
they're so, so overwhelming thatasking people to follow me on
(01:03:15):
LinkedIn feels so ridiculousright now.
But you can find me on all themajor social medias.
My website is michaelmosesca.
I have a newsletter there.
I post every few weeks on thenewsletter about positive
Indigenous culture and currentevents.
I try to bring some brightnessinto the world through education
(01:03:42):
and on Indigenous topics,through positivity, and I think
I need some of that.
I need some more of that rightnow, and I think that the people
who will pick up this book alsowill as well.
So come share this journey withme.
We can support each other.
Aaron Pete (01:04:01):
Michael, it was a pleasure to sit down with you.
I'm sure this is the first ofmany very deep, thoughtful
conversations.
Again, I find that when a booklike this comes out, the
reaction is burn it, get rid ofit, let's not talk about it,
let's hide it under the bed orsomething.
And your willingness to talkabout it and try and deconstruct
some of these ideas and respond, I just find that incredibly
(01:04:23):
admirable.
So I'm very proud to call you afriend and I hope you have a
better day, but thank you forcoming on and being willing to
discuss these difficult topics.
Thank you.
Michael Moses (01:04:34):
Aaron.
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
The Nikki Glaser Podcast
Every week comedian and infamous roaster Nikki Glaser provides a fun, fast-paced, and brutally honest look into current pop-culture and her own personal life.