Thriving with Cannabis: The Ultimate Guide to Mindful Consumption with Amanda Reiman

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Start with a kitchen timer and an open mind. We’re digging into how a long, loving relationship with cannabis changes as life changes—and how a mindful reset can make every milligram count again. With public health researcher and cannabis educator Amanda Reiman, we connect the dots from early Bay Area dispensary lounges born out of the HIV/AIDS movement to today’s crowded shelves, where choice is abundant but guidance is rare.

We talk about the real reasons tolerance can drop as we age, especially for women, through the lens of the endocannabinoid system and hormones. Amanda walks through a practical 28‑day tolerance break, what those manageable withdrawal‑like blips mean, and a simple framework for re‑entry: define your goal, start low, go slow, and notice. We unpack mindful consumption as awareness without judgment, choosing non‑smoked methods when they serve you better, and finding your minimum effective dose so you feel more with less. That middle voice matters: between activism that denies risk and prohibition that denies benefit, the future lives in honest, harm‑reduction‑focused habits.

We also explore effect‑based edibles that pair cannabinoids, terpenes, and botanicals—think valerian for sleep, green tea and yerba mate for energy, CBN or THCV for targeted outcomes. It’s the entourage effect, leveled up. Along the way, we address why social consumption spaces support safety for naive users, how to shop smarter for CBD (hint: dispensary testing beats gas‑station labels), and why state‑funded research is finally unlocking studies the federal system stalled. Whether you’re recalibrating after years of daily use or starting fresh, this conversation offers practical tools to rebuild joy, reduce risk, and keep your relationship with the plant evolving with you.

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Episode Transcript

SPEAKER_00 (00:05):
What happens when you take a love of food, a
passion for culture, and a deepknowledge of cannabis and you
toss them all into one bowl?
You get bite me, the podcastthat explores the intersection
of food, culture, and cannabisand helps cooks make great
edibles at home.
I'm your host, Margaret, acertified gangier, a TCI
certified cannabis educator, andI believe your kitchen is the
best dispensary you'll everhave.

(00:26):
Together we'll explore thestories, the science, and the
sheer joy of making safe,effective, and unforgettable
edibles at home.
So preheat your oven and getready for a great episode.
Let's dive in.
Today I am joined by pastpodcast guest Amanda Ryman.
Amanda appeared on the show in2021 on an episode called Callie

(00:48):
Sober, where we talked aboutusing cannabis for harm
reduction.
Today we touch on that topic,but also dive into our changing
relationship with cannabis,effectively using tolerance
breaks, finding your minimumeffective dose, mindful
consumption, and a whole lotmore.
Amanda has been involved inresearch around cannabis, social
justice as it relates toprohibition and public health

(01:11):
for a long time.
And it was tough to put a timelimit on this conversation.
So without making you wait anylonger, please enjoy this
conversation with Amanda Ryman.
All right, and we're live.
Amanda, I am so happy that youdecided to join me today on Bite
Me the Show about Adibles.
And for those who have been alittle bit newer to the show,

(01:34):
you were a past podcast guestsome years ago now.
We'll touch on that a little bitlater.
But for those who are unfamiliarwith you and your work, can you
just tell the listeners ofByteMe a little bit about
yourself and your cannabisjourney?

SPEAKER_01 (01:47):
Sure.
Um, so I've been involved incannabis since 1998 as an
activist and since 2002 as aresearcher.
I'm originally from the Midwestand I moved to Oakland,
California in 2002 to start thePhD program at Berkeley and
Social Welfare.
I was already a medical cannabispatient uh back then, even

(02:07):
though we didn't have medicalcannabis in Chicago.
I uh had been using cannabistherapeutically for quite some
time and really wasn't aware ofwhat was going on in California,
especially the Bay Area aroundmedical cannabis.
Remember, these are very earlyinternet days, which I know it's
hard for some folks to imagine,but we didn't have information
at our fingertips at any giventime.

(02:29):
So understanding what wasactually happening out in
California, I was pretty farremoved from that.
I was very interested in thesocial justice aspects of drug
prohibition, being a socialworker and understanding the
racial disparities and arrestsand in sentencing and the impact
that criminal justiceinvolvement can have on
somebody's life.
I really went to Berkeley tostudy the drug war and to

(02:52):
understand more about how socialwork intersected with drug
prohibition.
Moving out to the Bay Area, Isaw this medical cannabis
revolution happening.
There were dispensaries, uh,there were products available
that I'd never seen before.
And I felt like the earlydispensaries were a really
amazing model of communityhealth service provision.

(03:13):
Of course, being born out of theHIV AIDS movement, a lot of
early dispensaries really weretalking about and facilitating
alternative health options fortheir customers more than just
selling cannabis.
So I felt, you know what, asthis becomes more of an
industry, we might lose some ofthat.
Uh, we might lose some of thatactivism, lose some of that

(03:36):
community-mindedness.
I know what healthcare lookslike.
I go to Walgreens to pick up aprescription.
They're not offering me open micand free, fresh food and uh
chiropractic care.
They're having me stand in aline, they're giving me my
medicine, and I'm leaving.
So I decided to do a researchstudy on the way that these
early dispensaries wereoperating as health service

(03:57):
providers.
And that really kicked off mycareer in cannabis.
Uh, so I did that study for mydissertation in 2005, 2006.
And one of the things Idiscovered doing that research
was that a lot of cannabispatients were using cannabis in
harm reduction.
They were using it as asubstitute for prescription
drugs, they were using it as asubstitute for alcohol and other

(04:18):
illicit substances.
And so I really started to divedeep into the public health
aspects of using cannabis.
And, you know, being a cannabisconsumer myself and somebody
that was always a very heavyconsumer, I was very interested
in people like me.
I was interested in folks thatwere using cannabis multiple
times a day, that were stillholding a job and taking care of

(04:39):
families and being goodcitizens, and really were not
representing the stigma that weso often saw associated with
cannabis use.
And then as I got older and gotinto my 40s, I noticed that my
relationship with cannabis waschanging and that my tolerance
wasn't what it used to be, andthat I couldn't just use as much
as I wanted without any negativeeffects.

(05:01):
And that really awakened in me aneed to really think about what
does healthy, balanced cannabisuse look like?
And I was doing that mostly formy own purposes, but also
starting to hear from more andmore folks, colleagues of mine
in the industry, peers of minein research who were saying, you
know, that's me too.
Like I used to consume a lot ofcannabis.

(05:21):
It's not giving me the samething it used to, and I want to
reevaluate what thatrelationship looks like.
And so what I really took awayfrom all of that is that, you
know, on one side we haveactivism, which is very
important, but for reasons wecan get into or not, uh
activists feel very defensiveabout talking about potential
harms and risks associated withcannabis use for good reason.

(05:45):
And then on the other side, wehave the prohibitionists and a
lot of the public healthresearchers who are saying, you
know, it's full of risk andthere is no healthy use and it
isn't a medicine.
And I found what was reallylacking was that middle voice
that talks about moderation,that talks about risk and
benefits, that talks about waysto have relationships with
cannabis that is mindful andthat is healthy.

(06:09):
And so that's really where I'vekind of come out of this 25
years of working in this fieldas thinking about as we move
forward with legalization, withunprecedented access to a
variety of cannabis products, itmakes sense for us to have that
mindful relationship from theget-go because we see what

(06:30):
happens when we don't.
And I look at things like foodand the food industry and what
that's done to our health,having access to every food we
could ever want at ourfingertips at a reasonable price
without teaching people abouthealthy, moderate consumption
has not dust any done us anyfavors in terms of public
health.
So that's a been a bit about myarc in the industry and in the

(06:53):
cannabis space.
And I would say at the heart ofit, I'm a public health
researcher, I'm a social worker,and my job is to really connect
the dots.

SPEAKER_00 (07:01):
Right.
I love all of that.
And it sounds like obviously youbring so much experience to this
conversation, which is which iswhy I wanted to have you back
on.
Now, the dispensaries you'retalking about that you first
studied back in the day, thosedispensaries are almost more
like lounges, if I recallcorrectly.
Were they a little more like aplace where you could go and
spend some time instead of thedispensaries that I know of,

(07:22):
where I am right here, is likeyou walk in, you buy your stuff,
and then you leave.

SPEAKER_01 (07:26):
Yeah, well, there was on-site consumption, it was
a huge part of earlydispensaries.
And this really goes into beforethey were dispensaries.
So the first dispensaries werereally people's houses in San
Francisco where mostly AIDS uhpatients would gather uh to use
cannabis.
And it was partially becausethey couldn't use where they

(07:46):
lived.
Cannabis was illegal, and it waspartially because of the social
and community isolation thathappened when somebody had HIV
AIDS.
Um, you know, for folks that arenot alive during that time,
there was a lot ofmisunderstanding about how HIV
was spread.
And there was a belief that itwas spread kind of like COVID,
that you could get it from beingnear someone, from breathing on

(08:07):
someone, from coughing onsomeone.
And so, because of that, peoplethat had HIV or AIDS were very
socially isolated.
They were isolated from theirfamilies, they were isolated
from their employment, they wereisolated from their greater
community, and they foundcommunity in cannabis.
So giving people a space notonly to use cannabis as a
medicine, but to come togetheras a community was very crucial

(08:30):
in those early dispensaries.
And so we saw a lot of thathappening.
Um, Berkeley Patients Group wasone dispensary that was part of
my early research.
I ended up then working there astheir director of research and
patient services.
And their lounge was kind oflike an adult daycare, you know,
not to be condescending in thatway, but a place where people

(08:51):
that really didn't have anywhereelse to go during the day, they
were disabled, they weren'tworking, they lived in group
housing, or they lived in publichousing, um, or even just in
apartment buildings, didn'treally have a place where they
could spend time, where theycould learn about cannabis,
where they could medicate.
And so a lot of earlydispensaries played this role.
Now, as we started formalizingwhat cannabis looked like

(09:14):
through legalization, a lot ofpeople who are not cannabis
consumers did not like on-siteconsumption.
They didn't like the idea of thesmoke.
Um, they didn't like the idea ofpeople using cannabis and then
having to go back or drive backor walk back to the places where
they lived.
They had these really weirdideas that kids would walk by on

(09:36):
the sidewalk and somehow a handwould come out of the dispensary
and snatch them up and take theminside.
They had all these really weirdideas about what happened when
you had on-site consumption.
And yet we see alcohol barseverywhere.
And nobody seems to have aproblem with somebody walking
into a bar and having one drinkor two drinks and then going on
their merry way.

(09:56):
And in fact, alcohol bars weredeveloped because they didn't
want people drinking on thestreets.
They wanted to have them in acontained spot where you could
keep an eye on them, where youcould call for help if there was
a medical need or a publicsafety need.
And so the fact that publicconsumption for can or uh safe
consumption spaces for cannabiswere so immediately discarded by

(10:20):
the public was really strange tome.
So a lot of early dispensariesdid not have that option to have
social consumption.
Now in California, if you have adispensary and your locality
allows it, you can apply for alicense to have on-site
consumption.
But there's all kinds of rulesabout it, right?
Where smoking can happen, whattype of consumption can happen

(10:41):
there.
So I think they're slowlystarting to come back, but it
was something that earlydispensaries were able to do
because there were no rules.
There were no rules saying youcould do it, and there were no
rules saying you couldn't do it.
And so, out of necessity andneed of the community, a lot of
them, the early ones did allowthat.

SPEAKER_00 (10:58):
Right.
And it's interesting you mentionall that because it sounds like
the dispensaries almost servethe function of a third space
for a lot of people.
And I do feel like thoseconsumption spaces are really
lacking because it does give youthat opportunity to build
community around the plant.
And you just don't really seethat.
I don't see that where I ampersonally.
Um, so it's kind of a shame thatit's gone the direction it has,

(11:20):
maybe a little bit.
But also when you're talkingabout the bars and their
function, how similar it is insome respects, like where I am
too, you can like a child can bein a bar as long as before like
9 p.m.
or something like that.
And then I guess that's whenpeople get too rowdy for the
children.
But like when you talk aboutsomebody worrying about somebody
grabbing a kid off the street tohave them sit around all these

(11:42):
people smoking cannabis, and yetyou can bring a kid into a bar.
It's just uh it's odd that theway that they treat one versus
the other.

SPEAKER_01 (11:51):
Oh, absolutely.
And I mean, you know, that'ssimply the result of decades of
propaganda.
I mean, you know, propaganda isdefined as changing people's
opinions or establishing anopinion through emotion, and
it's very hard to change.
When somebody just feels intheir gut that something is
wrong, it's much harder tochange than when somebody just
feels in their brain thatsomething is wrong.

(12:12):
And cannabis is really ingrainedinto propaganda.
And I think, you know, besidesthe community piece, there's a
really big public safety piecearound using cannabis for the
first time and wanting to bearound people that are gonna be
able to give you support.
You know, we do not suggest tonaive consumers that they just
consume an edible sitting bythemselves in their house

(12:32):
because if they have a badreaction or they have questions,
who are they gonna ask?
You know, when you are at asocial consumption lounge,
you're able to get advice abouthow to consume properly.
If you have a negative effect,you have people there that can
help walk you through it.
You have access to water, youhave access to healthcare,
should you need it?

(12:52):
And I think that this is reallyimportant, especially as we have
more naive consumers,canacurious folks coming in, and
they're not smoking.
So they are choosing methods ofingestion that could carry
higher risk because of setonset, because of potency.
So I think, you know, inaddition to giving people a
place to consume, it's a publicsafety issue as well to allow

(13:16):
for social consumption spaces.

SPEAKER_00 (13:18):
Yeah, I totally agree.
And something else you touchedon too, which I'm very curious
about, is you mentioned how yourconsumption has changed over the
years.
And I personally find I feellike my tolerance has been going
down and not increasing, despitethe fact that I'm still
consuming pretty much every day.
So is that a thing?

SPEAKER_01 (13:37):
It's totally a thing.
And I, you know, and I, and thisis not, I don't know if there's
research to back this upbecause, you know, our research
on cannabis and human beings isso limited, especially women.
But, you know, cannabis and ourendocannabinoid system work
together to maintain homeostasisin our bodies.
And over time, our bodieschange, and what is needed to

(13:58):
maintain that homeostasischanges.
And for women, it especiallychanges because we have hormones
and all of that going on aswell.
So, you know, as we get older,our tolerance to intoxicating
substances in general tends toshift.
Uh, we become more sensitive toprescription drugs, we become
more sensitive to alcohol.

(14:19):
So it stands to reason we'd bemore sensitive to cannabis.
But I always like to think of italso as my ECS may need
something different as amiddle-aged woman, as it did
when I was a younger woman.
And that could be reflected inhow it tolerates cannabis.
So, you know, when you'reintroducing cannabinoids from
the plant, it is taking up someof the space of cannabinoids

(14:40):
that are being produced by thebody.
So it's possible as I get older,maybe my ECS is producing more
cannabinoids to make up for thefact that my hormones are out of
balance.
If as women, we start toexperience hormone imbalance
when we reach our 40s, our ECSmay be through the years of
evolution designed to ramp upproduction of certain

(15:04):
endocannabinoids to meet thatchallenge.
And it could be that that, plusintroducing phytocannabinoids
from the plant, could overloadour system in a way that it
doesn't do when we're younger.
Um, so I find a lot of womenreporting that, that as they get
older, their tolerance forcannabis has actually gone down,
that not only do they need lesscannabis in order to achieve the

(15:27):
same effect, but they have moreadverse effects from cannabis
when they did when they wereyounger.
So they're more prone toanxiety, they're more prone to
dizziness, they're more prone torapid heartbeat, which are kind
of the three main adverseeffects that people report from
cannabis.
And it really could be becausethe way that our endocannabinoid
systems are reacting to ouraging and the imbalance that may

(15:49):
be happening in our bodies.

SPEAKER_00 (15:51):
I'm glad to hear that it's not just me.
I'm not alone.

SPEAKER_01 (15:54):
It's not just you.
And if you're listening orwatching this and you're like,
oh my gosh, that's me, it's notjust you.
And, you know, thankfully, thereare companies out there that are
introducing lower dose products,that are introducing products
that have a balance ofcannabinoids and other
beneficial herbs, realizing thatyou get to a certain age and

(16:14):
maybe you don't want a 50milligram edible that's just
THC.
You know, maybe you needsomething that's gentler, maybe
you need something that'soffered in combination with
other herbs that are alsomedicinal in order to give you
the effect you want and not justrelying strictly on that THC.

SPEAKER_00 (16:31):
Yeah, I would find I find too that using a lot more
CBD these days really helps tosort of level out that THC.
And my tolerance for edibles hasdefinitely gone down and not up.
Like I've noticed it quite a lotrecently.
So I find it surprising, but italso makes sense.
Now, this is this a phenomenonthat would apply to most people
as they age, or do you find itmore pronounced in women because

(16:54):
of the shift that you gothrough, like the hormonal shift
of menopause?

SPEAKER_01 (16:58):
So, you know, again, anecdotally, I have found it
more in women.
Um, I've heard it more fromwomen uh that they are noticing
that their tolerance ischanging.
Um, you know, my I'm I'm 49, mypartner's 54.
He smokes cannabis all everyday, you know, multiple times a
day.
And his tolerance has notchanged at all.

(17:18):
Um, you know, my tolerance hasgone, you know, when I was in my
30s, I was a, you know, 100milligram THC edible
go-to-the-gym type of gal.
Um, you know, I never reallythought, oh, this is gonna be
too much, or I should make sureI don't consume too much.
You know, now 10 milligrams iskind of at the limit of where I

(17:38):
can be, and five milligrams ismost comfortable for me.
Um, you know, this did happenafter taking a three-month break
completely from cannabis, but itstarted before then.
The reason I took the break wasbecause I was like, you know, I
got to figure out what the nextphase of my relationship with
cannabis is, because it isn'tjust highly functioning on very

(18:00):
high doses.
That's not who I am anymore.
And so who am I in relation tocannabis?
And so I, you know, took athree-month break completely.
And then when I came back to it,I was like, all right, let's
figure out what makes me feelgood.
You know, let's not hold myselfto some kind of standard of my
what my consumption used to be.
I stopped smoking completely.

(18:21):
Uh, I didn't want to smokeanymore.
You know, I was noticing likeimpacts on my skin from being a
smoker for so long.
And maybe you don't notice thosethings when you're younger, but
when you get older, you startnoticing.
I was noticing impacts on mygums and my teeth.
And I was like, you know, maybesmoking just isn't the right
method for me anymore.
Um, I love edibles, I lovetinctures, I love beverages.

(18:45):
So it was really figuring outwhat is that right dose for me
now and kind of throwing out myhistory as this very high
tolerance, high-level consumer.

SPEAKER_00 (18:57):
So when you said after that tolerance break, then
what was your strategy forreintroducing some of these
things?
Did you just start at a reallylow dose and work your way up to
see?
Because 100 milligrams for mostpeople would knock them on their
ass.
It would knock me on my ass atmy highest tolerance whenever,
you know, it's gone down, likeyou said, as well.
But I've never been able toconsume 100 milligrams.

SPEAKER_01 (19:19):
So well, no, it definitely is, you know, the
adage of start low, go slow.
I mean, you know, that's greatfor anybody, especially newer
people or people who are comingback to it.
So I think that I did start with10 milligram edible.
And I actually think it was 420with my mom who's visiting me.

(19:39):
And I was like, wow, I'm reallyhigh off of this 10 milligrams.
And it was pleasurable, but itwas also kind of like, well, I'm
kind of at the limit.
Like I wouldn't want any more ofthis.
And the other thing I noticedwas that I didn't feel compelled
to consume every day.
I when I took my break, it waspartially because I felt like I

(20:05):
was having a relationship withcannabis that needed
reevaluating, but it wasactually also because I realized
I wasn't enjoying it as muchanymore.
I mean, at this point, I hadbeen a multiple times a day
consumer for over 20 years.
And I was like, you know, I feellike I'm doing it just because I
do it and not because it'sintentional.

(20:27):
And almost like scrolling onyour phone.
It's like you're not doing itbecause you're like, oh, I got
to see what's on there.
You're doing it because yourbrain is like, I need a
distraction, I need something tolook at.
And I almost felt like mycannabis consumption had become
very habitual, where it was likeI was sitting in front of the TV
and watching something, and likeI had realized that I had smoked

(20:50):
like three bowls and I hadn'teven really thought about it.
And I was like, you know, I'mjust not, I'm not enjoying it.
I don't feel really high.
Um, you know, I get a littleburst of euphoria right after I
consume, but it's gone prettyquick.
And so I said, you know, I justfeel like my body needs a reset.
You know, when we reallyinundate our systems with

(21:12):
phytocannabinoids, withcannabinoids from the plant, our
ECS kind of takes a vacation.
You know, I mean, why would itneed to produce anandamide and
other endocannabinoids whenyou're supplementing that from
the plant?
And so I was like, you know, Ithink my ECS needs a chance to
route rub up again and to do itsthing.

(21:36):
And so I felt like taking thatbreak was not only to reduce my
tolerance, but it was torediscover my enjoyment of the
plant and not have it be aregular thing that I felt like I
had to do multiple times a day.
You know, the travel, it waslike I would, you know, I travel
a lot for work and it would belike, all right, what am I gonna

(21:58):
bring with me and where am Igonna consume it?
And, you know, it was a job tomake sure that I had candles,
just like it's a job to makesure I have coffee in the
morning.
Right.
Um, so not having that andfeeling like, oh, you know, I'm
going out of town for a week andI don't even need to bring
cannabis with me, or maybe Ijust need to throw a few gummies
in my bag, uh, was actually veryfreeing.

(22:20):
And it continues to be veryfreeing.

SPEAKER_00 (22:23):
Right.
And I think that that approachof having a more balanced
relationship with cannabis, nomatter what stage of your
cannabis journey you're in, isreally important.
And for those who might beinterested in exploring this a
bit more, what how would yousuggest that they start to put
this into practice themselves?

SPEAKER_01 (22:41):
Well, first I say take a break.
Right.
So, you know, I mean, reallyyour tolerance drops pretty
quickly.
So if you're a regular consumeror you're somebody that uses
cannabis as medicine, so I dowant to make a differentiation.
If you're somebody that has adisease or symptoms where you
are using cannabis as amedicine, so whether that's

(23:03):
PTSD, whether that's Crohn'sdisease, whether that's symptoms
related to a treatment for chemowith chemotherapy or some other
treatment, you may not be ableto stop using cannabis.
Just like if you're diabetic,you're not going to stop using
your insulin.
Um, there are some folks wherecannabis is a necessary part of

(23:24):
their day in order to keepsymptoms at bay, in order to
treat their disease, and theymay not be interested in getting
high.
They are there because thecannabinoids are feeding their
system in a way that ispreventing their symptoms from
happening.
For those folks, stick withwhat's working for you.
If using cannabis every day isworking for you at a certain

(23:45):
dose to keep your seizures atbay, keep doing that, right?
That is not most of us.
Most of us are using cannabisfor relaxation, for wellness, to
help with sleep, but we don'thave insomnia.
But you know, when you getolder, you have trouble
sleeping, uh, for minor achesand pains, uh, for boredom,

(24:07):
instead of alcohol.
This is why a lot of us areusing cannabis.
So if that is you, I suggesttaking a break and not just a
weekend break, but like a goodbreak.
I mean, like I said, I tookthree months.
I recommend at minimum 28 days.
You know, we know from theliterature on drug use that 28
days is kind of the length oftime to change a habit.

(24:30):
So taking 28 days off completelyfrom cannabis and then
reintroducing it as a mindfulactivity.
And what I mean when I say thatis before you consume, think
about why you're consuming inthat moment.
So, why am I consuming rightnow?
Uh, is it because I'm about togo watch this movie and I want

(24:53):
to have, you know, some cannabison board for this movie?
Is it because I have had troublesleeping these last couple
nights and I really need to geta good night's sleep tonight?
Is it because I've had a reallystressful day at work and I
don't want to reach for a beerand I'd rather have cannabis?
So, whatever that reason is,there's no right or wrong
reason, right?
So, mindful consumption isawareness without judgment.

(25:16):
So don't think I want to usecannabis because I've had a
really hard day at work, andthen think that's not a good
enough reason.
Whatever your reason is, it'sgood enough, but just think
about it.
So think about why you want toconsume it.
Think about what your goals arefor consuming it.
Find what we call your minimumeffective dose, which is the

(25:37):
smallest amount you can consumeand still get the effect you
want.
So if you're looking at anedible, start with five
milligrams.
If you can find something nanoemulsified and fast acting, all
the better, because you're gonnaknow sooner if you need to take
more.
Take that dose and then payattention to how it makes you

(25:57):
feel.
Like really tune in.
How am I feeling?
Am I getting do I feel the way Iwant to feel?
Do I feel too much?
Do I not feel enough?
And then adjust that dose basedon whether you achieved what you
wanted to achieve.
Now, folks may be listeningsaying that sounds like a whole
lot of work.

(26:17):
And it will come faster than youthink.
Um, but I think that that'sreally how you get back to
having that good relationshipwith the cannabis plant, where
you are thinking about what do Iwant it to do for me?
How much should I take in orderto achieve that?
Have I achieved that?

(26:39):
And then feeling the effect.
And it's not that you're gonnaneed it every day.
And it's not that you're gonnaneed it multiple times a day.
But when you do want it, haveit.
But just think about it and bemindful of it.

SPEAKER_00 (26:56):
Yeah, I'm glad you brought up the the concept of
mindful consumption because Ithink we hear this a lot these
days, and people might not betoo aware of what that means.
And I think just the that ideaof awareness of paying attention
is something that we overlook alot, just collectively.
I'm guilty of it.
I'm sure you are too.
Everybody I know, we just gothrough these phases we're so, I

(27:18):
guess, in our heads about theworld and what we have to do for
work and like our personal livesand all this stuff that we just
don't pay attention to thoselittle things like, why am I
consuming this edible or smokingthis joint right now or whatever
the case is?
But you're saying that mindfulconsumption is that awareness
without judgment, which I thinkis also really important that

(27:39):
you touched on because we'realso very good at judging
ourselves.

SPEAKER_01 (27:42):
We are, and and and and you know, on that about
judging yourself, it's not allour fault that we are consuming
things mindlessly.
Our culture of marketing andcapitalism and buying things is
designed for us to make mindlessdecisions.
That is what it's counting on,right?

(28:03):
It's counting on us going intoAmazon and putting a bunch of
things in the cart and notthinking about it too much.
It's counting on us reaching forDoorDash and ordering things
that maybe we're not even hungryfor, but they sound really good.
It's counting on us turning onNetflix and planning on watching
one show and then it's fivehours later and you're still

(28:25):
watching it.
Like that is the mindset thatour culture relies on to make
money from us.
So it's not our fault.
We are conditioned to do that.
And I find that if I can applymindfulness in one area, it
definitely bleeds into otherareas of my life.

(28:47):
So, you know, cannabis issomething that thankfully the
industry has not gotten to thepoint where it is really
encouraging mindlessconsumption.
So, and we don't havecommercials for it all over the
place, and we don't have thesame kind of marketing that we
have for other commodities.
So, it is a great opportunity topractice mindful consumption and

(29:09):
then let it expand into otherareas of your life of eating, of
watching TV, of looking on yourphone, of online shopping.
Like it can impact these otherareas if we kind of start with
thinking about what mindfulconsumption means in relation to
cannabis.

SPEAKER_00 (29:25):
Yeah, and I'm glad you bring that up too, because I
mean the consumption is alsoamplified when you just pair it
with all the things you talkedabout because it's so
convenient.
Like you can order somethingwith Amazon one click and have
it shipped to your door in likea day.
And so, yeah, you don't reallythink about it.
So that consumption plus theconvenience just makes it even
more difficult to overcome.
So yeah, and also you mentionedthat like we have the

(29:48):
opportunity because we justdon't have the same marketing in
cannabis like we do with everyother industry, especially
alcohol.
And maybe despite some of thecomplaints that we hear from
perhaps.
Some LPs and the rest of them,that maybe that's not
necessarily a bad thing to havepublic safety first.

SPEAKER_01 (30:07):
And people know about cannabis.
Yeah.
So, like when you, you know,when you have alcohol ads, a lot
of it is to say buy our brandversus somebody else's brand.
And I think that there are waysto introduce that with cannabis
without having it be justflashed on your screen and on
your computer and on your phonefor brands to differentiate

(30:30):
themselves.
We are in a time ofunprecedented access to
cannabis.
You know, cannabis has beenaround for thousands of years.
We have never had access like wehave now to a variety of
products, including very highpotency products.
And I understand that theindustry needs to survive.
And in order to survive, theyneed to sell products.

(30:53):
Every industry is like that.
And so you hear the alcoholindustry and the fast food
industry and even the cannabisindustry to tell you to eat,
drink, consume responsibly, butyou don't hear them say eat,
drink, consume less.

SPEAKER_00 (31:10):
No, because they have stuff to sell.

SPEAKER_01 (31:12):
Sorry.
We're gonna go with alcohol,it's still good.
Um yeah, they have stuff tosell.
And I get that.
Like I totally understand that.
And so what that means is thatit's up to us as the consumer to
say, I'm gonna consumemoderately, right?
I'm gonna order a smaller meal.
Um, you know, I'm only gonna buyone thing because they're not

(31:36):
gonna do it.
Right.
So it's it's gonna be on us todo that.

SPEAKER_00 (31:40):
Yeah, and that is challenging too, just because we
don't, I mean, it's hard tostand up as an individual
against an entire industry who'ssaying mindful consumption, not
mindful consumption, but whatyou mentioned earlier or just a
second ago about you know,consume responsibly, but not
necessarily consume less becausethey're never gonna say that to
you.
So yeah.

(32:01):
Now you also have a platformcalled Personal Plants, which
you talk about a lot of theseissues on that platform.
And I don't, I'm trying tothink, I don't think you had
started that platform maybe bythe last time that we talked on
this show.
Can you share some of theexperiences that you've had
through personal plants thathave shaped your helped shaped
your journey so far?

SPEAKER_01 (32:21):
Yeah, so I founded personal plants.
I think it was probably prettynew the last time I came on the
show.
It's been through a couple ofiterations.
You know, I have been a homecultivator for over 20 years.
I love growing my own cannabis.
I think it's a great way todevelop that mindful
relationship with the plant,just like growing your own food,
right?
There's something about thatconnection that I think is

(32:43):
really important.
So I started Personal Plantsreally to figure out how do I
encourage these healthyconnections and relationships to
the plant so that cannabisdoesn't become just another
commodity that we just buy inbulk at the store and consume
without thinking about it.
Because I think cannabis isbetter than that.
I think it deserves more respectthan that.

(33:04):
Uh, so I started Personal Plantsto really think about how do we
develop these plant humanrelationships in ways that
encourage healthy consumption.
And over the years, what Irealized was that there was a
real need for a platform thatbrings in that middle voice that
I talked about earlier.
That, you know, I am a hugeadvocate for removing criminal

(33:27):
penalties around cannabis useand sales.
I do not think anybody should beengaged or involved in the
criminal justice system aroundcannabis.
And I, whatever that looks like,depending on the country or the
state that you're in, we don'thave a lot of control on that
because that's really going toreflect how states and countries
decide to regulate intoxicatingproducts.

(33:47):
But we should, it should not bein the criminal justice system.
And I fully believe that.
So it's like, okay, so now wehave access to it, we have legal
access to it.
What does that mean in terms ofreally helping people understand
not only the benefits, but thepotential risks of using
cannabis and developing thathealthy relationship?
And as I mentioned, we have hadthis real black and white

(34:10):
thinking around it.
We've had cannabis cureseverything, there's no such
thing as dependence, there's nosuch thing as overdose, you
know, everybody should use it,grow it like tomatoes, right?
We have that plant that camp.
And then we have the cannabis isa gateway drug, it's highly
addictive, it's a terriblenarcotic, nobody should ever use
it.

(34:30):
You should go to jail if you useit.
We have that camp.
And for a long time, those arethe only two camps that existed.
And like I said, I don't reallyblame the activist camp for
downplaying the risk becausewhen they came forward and we
came forward as activists andsaid, well, yes, you can become
dependent on cannabis.
This other side would be like,see, see, even the activists say

(34:54):
that it's addictive.
And it was really hard to movepolicy forward.
So I get why these two campsemerged, but I feel like in a
post-legalization world, we needto bring reality.
And the reality is that bothcamps are right about some
things and both camps are wrongabout some things.

(35:15):
So I wanted to use personalplants as a place to not only
help people understand kind ofhow we got where we are and why
these opinions exist and whymisinformation is still really
common, but also a space to hearthe truth, right?
To hear that, yes, cannabis isfor anybody, but not for

(35:38):
everybody.
That certain people shouldn'tuse cannabis, that there are
certain risks to using cannabis,but there's also a lot of
benefits.
That there is way, there areways to uh ingest cannabis
mindfully and healthfully, butnot every way we ingest cannabis
is mindful and healthy.
Um, so I wanted to use personalplans as a place where people

(36:00):
could go and kind of wadethrough the noise and just get
the information that they needto have a good relationship with
cannabis.
That's really what this isabout.
And if we want to seelegalization continue forever,
and we want to see access tocannabis continue forever and
not go back the other direction,we have a responsibility to

(36:23):
educate ourselves and to use theplant in a healthy way.

SPEAKER_00 (36:27):
Yeah, and I love that approach too, because
you're totally right that youknow, there's there are the
people out there who thinkcannabis is a panacea for all
things that ails you and all therest of the things that you
mentioned.
And having that research-backedmiddle ground, I think is really
important.
And I was gonna ask you a littlebit, be even though I know you
mentioned before we did thisshow that you're not producing

(36:48):
new episodes anymore, but on thePersonal Plants website, you
have a show that you co-hostcalled The Truth About the
Plant.
And I've listened to someepisodes, it's fantastic.
They're 20-minute episodes, soreally easy to slip into that
podcasting rotation, or it's onroot YouTube as well.
And you cover a huge range oftopics that would be of interest
to a lot of people who arelooking to explore that, you

(37:11):
know, mindful consumption andchanging their relationship with
the plant.
One episode that did catch myeye was things I wish I'd known
about cannabis before I guess Istarted using it.
Can was there anything that yourecall that that stood out to
you, things that you wish youknew about cannabis before you
started consuming?

SPEAKER_01 (37:31):
Well, I think, you know, back when I started
consuming cannabis, it wasillegal.
Um, you know, it was very hardto get.
So you had to call, you know, II like to used to tell my
students, you know, it's kind oflike the walking uphill in the
snow to school both ways story.
We didn't have cell phones.
Yeah, we had house phones, wehad pagers, maybe.

(37:56):
Um, and you had to call someoneand they called someone, and
then you had to wait by thephone until they called you back
and said whether they hadsomething for you or not.
And whatever they had, that'swhat you got.
There was no choice.
There definitely was no ediblesor vape pens or any of the
beverages or any of these otherproducts.
So I didn't really know a lotabout cannabis when I started

(38:19):
consuming it.
You know, I grew up in the Daregeneration.
We were not taught any valuableinformation about cannabis in
school.
Uh, we were taught that it wasdangerous, that it was on par
with heroin, that it would youbecome addicted, that it was a
gateway drug and just don't doit.
So I didn't really know a lotabout cannabis before I started
consuming it.
So if there were some things Iwish I had known, um, you know,

(38:43):
one is that smoking cannabis isnot risk-free.
There's a lot of rhetoric thatjust because smoking cannabis
doesn't cause lung cancer, thatit's completely safe.
And that's not true.
Um, you know, it's not asdangerous as smoking cigarettes
or smoking cigars or smoking atobacco product, but you're

(39:03):
still inhaling hot plant matterinto your lungs.
So there are risks associatedwith it.
And I think if I had thoughtmore about that at the
beginning, I would havediversified my consumption early
on.
I was always a smoker because itwas fast onset, it was
convenient.
So I think really understandingthe risk and benefit of that

(39:24):
method of consumption would havebeen important.
Um, and I wish I also understoodthe relationship between using
cannabis and the endocannabinoidsystem a little bit better.
You know, as I mentioned before,your endocannabinoid system
isn't going to keep producingendocannabinoids as long as it's
getting what it needs from theplant.
And so for those of you outthere that might decide to take

(39:46):
a break, you might experiencewhat is kind of in a meta sense
known as withdrawals.
It's not the same as withdrawalson alcohol or opiates or other
things, but you may experiencetrouble sleeping, loss of
appetite, moodiness.
And this is because when youstop bringing cannabinoids in

(40:08):
from the plant, yourendocannabinoid system doesn't
just start up again, right?
It's like starting a cold car.
It's like and so it takes yourendocannabinoid system,
sometimes a week, sometimes twoweeks, to say, oh, that the word
happened to all thecannabinoids.
I better start, you know,ramping up production again, and

(40:28):
then it will, and then thosesymptoms will go away.
But I didn't really understandthat when I spent all those
years getting my cannabinoidsfrom the plant, that I may have
been stifling the function of myown endocannabinoid system.
And one of the things I loveabout where I'm at with cannabis

(40:49):
now is that even though I stilluse cannabis, I know that my ECS
is running smoothly.
Now, something else that wecould touch on, or I'll just
throw it out as a footnote.
Um, there is some research tosuggest that not everybody's
endocannabinoid system works thesame way.
And we know that, but that somepeople's endocannabinoid systems

(41:11):
may be deficient, meaning thatwhether they use cannabis or not
from the plant, their ECS isnever going to produce
cannabinoids at the level theyneed in order to maintain
balance, or that theirendocannabinoid receptors, for
whatever reason, are not fittingwell with their
endocannabinoids.
So it's not producing the effectthat it needs in order to

(41:34):
maintain that balance.
And we refer to this asendocannabinoid deficiency
syndrome.
Uh, so there it should be moreresearch done.
There will be more researchdone, but it's possible that for
some folks, cannabis from theplant is a necessary supplement
in order to keep their ECSrunning smoothly.

(41:55):
So there's all kinds of nuancesbetween how the ECS functions
and how you function when yousupplement from the plant, but
we shouldn't just consume abunch of phytocannabinoids and
not think that there's going tobe an impact on how our ECS
functions.

SPEAKER_00 (42:10):
Yeah, I love that you also mentioned the
withdrawal because a lot ofpeople think that there is no
withdrawal from cannabis.
But as you said, it's verydifferent than other types of
withdrawal.
I've quit smoking cigarettes,and that withdrawal was really
shitty.
It was not great.
Uh, and so yeah, the withdrawalfrom cannabis is, I mean, for
me, maybe I haven't been a superheavy consumer, but I have taken

(42:32):
long enough tolerance breaks toknow that it's manageable.
And maybe the first few days,it's not a lot of fun.
But I'm curious if the ECStesting, because I mean, it was
prohibited for so long.
So we just don't have thatmedical research behind it yet.
But the the can you test fordeficiencies through like your
local doctor?
Like if I went to my my MD andsaid I'm feeling deficient and

(42:56):
something, like, is there a testfor that for somebody?

SPEAKER_01 (43:00):
No, there is not.
There is not.
Um, you know, really the closestwe get is looking at kind of
mapping of the ECS and the rolethat the ECS plays and certain
diseases and symptoms that seemto be really helped by cannabis.
So, one example is Crohn'sdisease.

(43:22):
Uh, we know that we have a lotof endocannabinoid receptors in
our gut.
And for a very long time, Imean, even back to like early
Chinese medicine, thousands ofyears ago, digestive disorders
are one of the most commonreasons why people used
cannabis.
So, you know, there's kind ofthis thought of well, if
somebody's ECS, which regulatesappetite and digestion, is not

(43:47):
functioning properly, it wouldstand to reason that they would
develop symptoms like gutinflammation and other things
that we see in some of thesedigestive disorders, Crohn's,
ulcerative colitis, uh, IBS,that cannabis seems to help.
And could it be that thatdisease is being caused by

(44:09):
dysregulation in the bodyrelated to a malfunctioning ECS,
to where when you supplementwith cannabinoids, it seems to
balance it.
And so this is really kind ofwhere we're at.
Now, there are some tests outthere that say that they
measure, they do like DNA andkind of measure the functioning

(44:30):
of your ECS and look for certainmarkers, but the ability to take
that information and then say,therefore, you need to
supplement with this tincturethat has this amount of CBD and
this amount of THC and thisamount of CBC and this terpene
in order to balance out yourspecific issue, we're not really

(44:52):
there yet.
You know, we might be able tosay you're more likely to
develop this condition becauseof the way your ECS is
functioning, but we're reallyjust right now seeing it as like
snapshots versus the wholestory.
Um, if this is something thatyou're interested in as a
listener, um, Dr.
Ethan Russo has really pioneeredthe field of endocannabinoid

(45:15):
deficiency syndrome and has somereally lovely articles out there
about kind of what we know andwhat we don't around this
condition.

SPEAKER_00 (45:22):
Yeah, that's super interesting, especially when you
say, could it possibly be someof these, you know, things like
Crohn's could be linked directlyto a deficiency?
That would be that's reallyinteresting because that would
totally change a lot in themedical field, just period.
But and probably some morewidespread acceptance of
cannabis as well, if that was tohappen.

(45:42):
So let's uh if anybody's outthere listening that's doing
research in that area, keep itup because we need more of that.
Now, you are a guest on Bite Mein 2021, and that in that
episode, I called it Cali Sober.
It could be because we talkedabout your research on using
cannabis as a harm reductiontool, which you've already
touched on today, um, as asubstitute for drugs and

(46:03):
alcohol.
Has your perspective changed atall since 2021 on cannabis and
its role in a balancedlifestyle?

SPEAKER_01 (46:10):
Or as a couple tool?
Right.
Not at all.
I think, you know, more so I'mnow seeing cannabis and harm
reduction as a two-sided coin.
So you can definitely usecannabis as a harm reduction
tool, meaning as a substitutefor alcohol, which we're seeing
more and more, especially withthese amazing hemp beverages and
THC beverages on the market thatare fast acting, uh, that are

(46:33):
available in grocery stores instates like Minnesota, uh, and
the fact that Gen Z's are not asinterested in alcohol anymore.
We're seeing more and morepeople using cannabis beverages,
especially as a substitute foralcohol.
So I absolutely still believethat that is a good way to go.
Um, I also believe that it is agood substitute for some
prescription drugs.

(46:54):
Now, I'm not a cannabis orprescription drugs kind of a
person.
I'm a cannabis and prescriptiondrugs kind of a person.
Um, I think that cannabis canhelp people use fewer
prescription drugs and less doseof a prescription drug.
But for many people, it's notgoing to be a complete
one-to-one substitute because alot of prescription drugs fill

(47:15):
very specific functions uh interms of treating symptoms and
disease.
But I do think it can helppeople use fewer opiates.
Um, I do think it can helppeople use no ambien or maybe
less ambion.
Um, so I do think that that is agood harm reduction tool.
And for people that are tryingto move off of harder
substances.

(47:35):
Now, look, I've never doneheroin, so I'm not going to be
able to speak to this as anexperienced person.
But my guess is that people whohave done heroin will say it's
not the same thing as smoking ajoint.
It's a it's not the sameexperience.
I think it's quite different,actually.
But if you're trying to stopusing heroin or cocaine or

(47:57):
cannabis can be something thathelps quell withdrawals.
Uh, it can be something that isused as a psychoactive
substitute, even though it's nota one-to-one.
So I still very much believe incannabis is a harm reduction
tool.
The other side of that coin iswhat we've been talking about on
this episode, which is harmreduction within the context of
using cannabis.

(48:18):
So I think that there are harmreduction techniques like
finding your minimum effectivedose, choosing methods of
ingestion besides smoking,taking regular tolerance breaks,
using mindful consumption.
These are all ways that we canbring harm reduction into our
cannabis use because again,cannabis has fewer risks than a

(48:41):
lot of other substances, but itis not risk-free, just like
nothing is free.
So I think it's both.
I think cannabis can be used asa harm reduction tool when it
comes to the world of alcoholand prescription drugs and other
substances.
I also think that there arethings we can do within our own
cannabis use to maximize benefitand reduce risk.

SPEAKER_00 (49:00):
Right.
And I like that you mentionedthat it's a tool, which suggests
it's a tool in a toolbox with awhole bunch of other tools that
you're using to sort of achievethat aim.
So I'm glad that you pointedthat out.
Now, you mentioned at the top ofthe show that you're doing some
consulting for a company thatmakes cannabinoids, some
consulting generally, but youare doing consulting for a
company that makes cannabinoidterpen and botanical infused

(49:23):
gummies.
Is there anything in particularthat excites you about this type
of product innovation that'sbringing in cannabinoids with
other compounds?

SPEAKER_01 (49:32):
Like oh, absolutely.
100%.
So um, so the the company iscalled FK Plus.
Um, they do, like you said, um,botanical and cannabinoid and
terpene-infused gummies.
They also do pre-rolls.
Um, but you know, for so long,cannabis has been ostracized

(49:53):
from botanical medicine, right?
And it didn't used to be thatway.
Cannabis used to be just one ofmany tools to go back to that
analogy in the toolbox ofbotanical medicine.
And just like we talk about theentourage effect with
cannabinoids and terpenes,there's also an entourage effect
with cannabinoids, terpenes, andother botanicals.

(50:14):
And the fact that we reallyweren't allowed to combine them
was unfortunate.
And, you know, when you look ata lot of the state cannabis
laws, there are rules about yourcannabis product can only have
cannabis in it.
It can't have cannabis and otherthings.
And I think that this has been adetriment because what we're
hearing from consumers is thatthey're looking for

(50:35):
effects-based products.
They want to consume a productbecause they want to feel a
certain way.
And yes, you have folks that arelike, oh, I really like this
cultivar, or you know, they kindof get more into the weeds, no
pun intended, on what theproduct is.
But your average consumer islike, I want this for sleep, I

(50:55):
want this for daytime, I want tofeel a mild effect, I want to
feel a highly euphoric effect.
Like they're looking for somekind of outcome.
And it's been really hard toachieve that with terpenes and
cannabinoids alone.
I mean, yes, you can say, well,this is a more potent THC
product, so you're gonna feel amore potent effect.

(51:16):
Use this at nighttime.
Uh, this has liminine in it,which is an uplifting terpene.
So use this during the day, butit's only been a piece of the
puzzle.
And there are so many otherbotanicals out there that help
contribute to effect.
So this product is aneffects-based product.
There's focus, there's energy,there's relax, and there's

(51:37):
sleep.
And it's a low-dose cannabinoidproduct.
So it's two gummies per package,and each gummy has five
milligrams of THC.
And actually, the focus only has2.5 milligrams of THC per gummy.
It also has terpenes that arethere to enhance the effect.
So the sleep gummy is gonna havelinolul in it, the focus and

(51:58):
away uh energy gummies are gonnahave um are gonna have limanine
in them, the relaxed gummy isgonna have Mersine in it.
But then, in addition to that,it has other botanicals that are
used to achieve those sameeffects.
So the energy one also has greentea and yourba mate in it, and
the sleep one also has valerianroot and passion flower.

(52:21):
And so it's like you're gettingto take advantage of the whole
bounty of botanical medicineinstead of it just being limited
to well, what can we do with THCand CBD?
It also has minor cannabinoids.
So the focus one also has THCV,and the sleep one also has CBN.

(52:42):
So it's really, I feel, kind oflike the next generation of
cannabinoid products, where it'slike, okay, great.
We know THC and CBD andterpenes, they're fantastic.
They have all these therapeuticbenefits.
But what if we also add passionflour?
And what if we also add greentea?

(53:02):
And what if we also add CBN andCBG?
And I feel like if you'resomebody that's that's looking
to go beyond just intoxicationand really looking at
functionality and how do I bringcannabinoids and botanical
medicines into my life to helpwith certain functions that I'm

(53:23):
trying to do, this is such agreat product for that.
And I love like I take theenergy one before I work out.
Uh, it gives me a great boost.
I take the relaxed one at theend of the day.
And I'm never laying in bed likejittery because I ended up
taking a product that had aterpene in it or a cannabinoid

(53:44):
ratio that wasn't fitting what Iwas trying to accomplish.
So going back to that mindfulconsumption, it really helps
with that.
Because I'm like, all right,what am I trying to achieve?
Well, I've had a really longday.
I really want to relax.
This product is gonna help me dothat, not just because of the
cannabinoids, but because of theother botanicals that are in

(54:04):
there.
And I'm gonna consume itmindfully, and then I'm gonna be
like, okay, it gave me what Iwanted.
And I think for so many people,it's like they pick a
cannabinoid product from adispensary and it's like, yeah,
it gave me like 60% of what Iwanted.
And like that's good enough,unless that 40% is really

(54:24):
destructive to me.
But this product I feel is likea bullseye.
It really helps you hone in onwhat your goals are.

SPEAKER_00 (54:32):
Yeah, I really love the idea of the marriage of
these two things.
Do you think we're gonna beseeing more of this as time goes
on?

SPEAKER_01 (54:40):
I hope so.
I mean, I I am starting to seeit more.
So I definitely like out here inWashington, we don't have the
rules about it can only becannabis.
So, like, I can go to thedispensary and I can get a
cannabis gummy that also haslion's mane mushroom in it, and
um, ashwaganda and otherbotanicals.

(55:02):
So I think that people arestarting to catch on to that and
say, you know, there, and Ithink it's being driven by the
fact that people wanteffects-based things.
So I think um companies arestarting to think, all right, we
know THC or CBD or this terpenecauses this effect, but what
else can we put in here that'sjust gonna seal the deal that

(55:24):
this is the effect they're gonnaget from this product?
So I am seeing it more, and Ihope that where it's allowed, we
will start to see it more.
Um, and in states that currentlydon't allow it, that they'll
start to loosen theirregulations or change their
regulations to allow for more ofthese kind of multi-ingredient
products.

SPEAKER_00 (55:43):
Yeah, because that's super interesting too, because
cannabis is so regulated and alot in the natural products
category is like reallyunre-regulated.
So it's kind of interesting thatit's not easier to sort of blend
the two things together in somerespects.

SPEAKER_01 (55:57):
Right.
Well, it's coming under thecannabis rules.
Yeah.
Right.
So it's like you're not seeing,you're not going to a health
food store and seeing likeashwagandha powder now with CBD
or now with THC.
You're going to a dispensary andyou're seeing here's a highly
rec, you know, regulated uh THCproduct that now has ashwagandha

(56:18):
in it.
So that product is going to haveto say exactly how much is in
that of each thing becausethat's what's required under the
regulations.
In terms of effect, we're stillunder the kind of really vague,
this has not been evaluated bythe FDA kind of a thing, which
we are with all naturalsupplements, right?

(56:39):
So there are organizations outthere that establish standard
operating procedures andstandards for the creation of
natural products, um, theAmerican Herbal Products
Association.
So they're basically saying,hey, if you're gonna use
Ashwagandha, you have to makesure it's prepared this way.
You can't say this or that aboutit.
This is how to make sure thatit's safe for consumption.

(57:01):
But they're not gonna say it'sgonna cure your anxiety.
Uh because they can't say that.
And they can't put that on thepackaging.
So that will stay, regardless ofwhether it's in the natural
product space or in the cannabisspace.

SPEAKER_00 (57:13):
It's it's interesting though, because it
sounds like almost the can'tlike uh melding the two together
with cannabis almost makes itthat the natural food side of
things is has to come up to thesame standard as cannabis, which
is probably just better forconsumers at the end of the day.

SPEAKER_01 (57:28):
It is, and you know, the the American Herbal Products
Association actually createdstandards for cannabis.
Um, way back in the day, I wason that committee, um, and that
must have been like 2008, 2009,maybe, um, because they were
like, hey, cannabis is a naturalproduct.
We should have the same testingstandards and production

(57:50):
standards that we do for allother natural products.
So that definitely exists.
It's just a question of where iscannabis going to be available
and who regulates that.
You know, uh the FDA here in theUS kind of took a hands-off
approach with CBD and said,we're not gonna regulate that.
That's not our job.
And there's kind of some buckpassing back and forth.

(58:12):
So, you know, what's the moralof that story?
Well, when you see a CBD producton the shelf, you really don't
have a lot of confidence that itis what it says it is if you're
finding it in the drugstore.
Now, if you find that in adispensary, you know that there
are rules that say you have tomeasure the amount of CBD that's
in there, you have to make surethere aren't other contaminants
in there.
You still can't make any healthclaims.

(58:34):
But I tell folks, if they'relike, I want to buy a CBD
product, I'm like, go to adispensary because at least then
you're gonna be assured that theproduct you're buying actually
has CBD in it.
Whereas if you buy it off theshelf at a grocery store, you
really don't have thatassurance.

SPEAKER_00 (58:48):
Yeah, that's that's great.
And that's something that peoplecan look for in their
dispensaries right now.
I'm gonna be checking myself.
I don't go to dispensaries toooften, but when I do, it's
always cool to see the newproducts coming out.
But and I know for a long timecannabis here.
I remember when they firstwanted to bring out somebody was
making like a cannabis infusedcoffee, like one of those cure
egg things or something.

(59:08):
And initially I don't think theycould make it because you
couldn't combine cannabis withcaffeine.
That's one of those things.
But I think things have changedsince.
But yeah, that's kind of anexciting thing to look for, to
watch for in the cannabis spacecoming up.
So um, one last question I justwant to ask you because I want
to be mindful of your timetoday.
I feel like I could pick yourbrain for hours, but what are

(59:31):
you most excited about right nowfor yourself?

SPEAKER_01 (59:35):
Oh gosh, that's a good question.
Well, it's Friday, so I'm prettyexcited about that.
Um, you know, I'm really excitedabout research.
You know, that that's where Istarted.
You know, I started in thisfield as a researcher.
And at the time, there were sofew of us.
It was such a small community.
And over the years, it's beenreally difficult to be a

(59:56):
researcher in cannabis becausethe federal funding just isn't.
There, the Schedule One natureof cannabis, um, doing research
with human beings is almostimpossible with actual plants.
It's really impossible.
So it's been really tough to bea researcher in cannabis.
I do feel like, and I'm gonna acaveat, not at the federal

(01:00:17):
level, at the federal level,it's becoming even harder
because the research money isdrying up even more, especially
for things like harm reductionand the therapeutic use of
cannabis at the federal level.
But one thing that I am excitedabout is state-sponsored
research.
You know, several states,including California, have it
written into their legalizationinitiatives that part of the tax

(01:00:39):
revenue goes to fund research.
And this is something we'venever had before.
It was like the federalgovernment or nothing.
Maybe you could get a privateorganization to fund your
research, but as soon as youdid, there were all kinds of
accusations about it beingbiased and all of that.
So California has initiatedseveral rounds of funding for

(01:01:00):
millions of dollars to go topublic universities in
California to do research oncannabis.
And this is reallyunprecedented.
And given the restrictions atthe federal level, I am so glad
that these programs existbecause otherwise, research
would really come to a halt.
Now, Canada is a differentstory.
They do fund research in Canada.

(01:01:21):
And actually, I have a grantproposal out right now to the
state of California that is apartnership with the University
of Waterloo to continue someresearch that they're doing.
So that's what really excites meright now is the fact that we
don't have to rely on thefederal government anymore to
fund our research, that we arestarting to see research
institutes pop up atuniversities like Berkeley, um,

(01:01:46):
you know, like Harvard, um, youknow, even my alma mater
University of Illinois, Chicago,has a cannabis research center.
So for me, like being able tosee the progress in research
regardless of the federal stanceis really exciting.

SPEAKER_00 (01:02:02):
Yeah, that's awesome.
And as we all know, research iswhat keeps pushing things
forward, and there's so muchmore to learn.
Like we know a lot, but there'sso much more to learn.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So, Amanda, I just want to saythank you for your time today.
You are obviously incrediblyinformative, and I really
appreciate the work that you'redoing out there in the world and
for sharing some of thatknowledge with the listeners
that bite me.

SPEAKER_01 (01:02:23):
Oh, my pleasure.
And you know, me, um, I'm happyto come on again, and maybe we
don't need to wait four years.
Yeah, that would be great.

SPEAKER_00 (01:02:31):
Thanks.
I trust that you enjoyed thisconversation as much as I did,
friends.
I will include the links ofwhere to find Amanda and
personal plants along with ourprevious conversation in the
show notes.
Please share this episode withsomeone as curious about
cannabis as you are.
Join us at the Bite Me CannabisClub.
And until next time, my friends,stay curious and stay high.