October 18, 2024 • 61 mins
Should you be involved in your adult child's dating life? Listen and find out.
Discover the art of balancing parental involvement in your adult children's dating lives as we bring you insights from the esteemed matchmaker, Rachel Greenwald.
Our conversation takes a deep dive into the ever-evolving dating landscape, where technology and social media have turned dating into a skill that requires finesse and caution. Hear how the priorities of marriage and career are shifting among young adults, as highlighted by a compelling New York Times article.
The pandemic has left an indelible mark on dating behaviors, encouraging a shift towards meaningful connections over superficial interactions. We explore how family dynamics play a pivotal role in shaping romantic relationships and the importance of having open, constructive conversations about your child's partner choices. From the influence of family backgrounds to the art of effective communication, this episode is a treasure trove of insights for anyone navigating the complex world of modern dating.
Huge thank you to Connie Gorant Fisher, our audio engineer.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey everyone.
It's Denise.
This is one of our last rewinds.
I think there's just one moreafter this, but how could we go
on and not play this one again?
This is from Season 3, shouldParents Medal in their Adult
Child's Dating Life?
We talked to Rachel Greenwald,a renowned matchmaker, and she
shares if, when and how tonavigate this tricky issue.
(00:21):
She shares if, when and how tonavigate this tricky issue.
At first I thought who wouldever meddle in their children's
dating life?
But take a listen and see whatyou think.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
So let's get started.
As young adults, I think wehave to know that we can't tell
them who to love.
As much as we wish we couldchoose their partner, you have
to understand that there'sprobably a window of time when
you can indicate some kind ofconcern about your child's
choice in a boyfriend orgirlfriend, and that window of
(00:59):
time is early on in theirrelationship.
If you bite your tongue for ayear or two while they're dating
somebody and then it getsserious and suddenly you express
your disapproval after they'vefallen in love or they're about
to get engaged, you're risking alifetime of alienation from
your child.
Frankly, at that point theirallegiance is going to be to
(01:21):
their partner and they're goingto tell their partner everything
you said about them.
And that partner will neverforget it.
Speaker 1 (01:29):
Before we start, I just want to say, Kirsten, I'm
so glad you're with me.
I think we're moving along andwe're finally clicking a few
episodes in.
Thanks so much for joining me.
Speaker 3 (01:39):
Thank you so much, denise.
This has really been a funexperience and I'm excited to be
a part of this very importantconversation.
And with that, it's almostValentine's day.
Hard to believe, hard tobelieve, all right.
So we thought we would talkabout dating and love lives,
specifically our adultchildren's love lives.
Should parents be talking aboutthis?
(02:00):
Very weird, very weird, I know.
And so, because we're not sosure, we thought that we would
welcome celebrity matchmaker anddating coach Rachel Greenwald
today.
Speaker 1 (02:12):
Valentine's Day, Rachel Greenwald.
I've known Rachel for a while.
She's from Denver, but she'sreally hit it big with this
matchmaking, so it should be aninteresting conversation.
Yeah, For me Valentine's Day.
I don't know how you feel and Iwonder what our listeners feel.
I hate Valentine's Day.
I hate Valentine's Day and Ihate Mother's Day.
There's so much pressure tosend Valentine's cards, Tell
(02:34):
your mother you love her.
Do you guys do this?
How do you?
I always wonder what otherpeople feel about these holidays
.
Speaker 3 (02:40):
Now we're in agreement on this.
We stopped celebratingValentine's Day years ago, and
when the kids were little I usedto buy them chocolate, until
the day that the dog got intothe chocolate, and then that was
the end of that as well.
Speaker 1 (02:52):
Oh, that's so funny.
I grew up in a candy store.
Family Easter, valentine's andChristmas were the biggest
holidays, so it's weird for menow not to be buying chocolates
and Valentine hearts, but itjust seems so contrived, no to
be buying chocolates andValentine hearts, but it just
seems so contrived.
Speaker 3 (03:06):
No, I agree, I said this to my whole family you have
to love and appreciate me allyear long, every day.
Speaker 1 (03:11):
Yeah Well, good luck with that, but you're sure
you're ahead of me on that one.
But you're absolutely right.
All right, we need to getstarted here.
Many parents of adult kids doworry Is my son or daughter
going to meet their life partner?
And I have to say, just havingmy daughter she's been in this
relationship for 16 years butshe just got married.
I do feel good when my kids arein a relationship and it's
(03:34):
someone I like, although, again,we don't really have a choice,
but I feel like someone that'sgoing to love them and hopefully
care for them.
I feel a little bit like theyhave their soulmate and that, I
don't want to say, leaves me offthe hook.
But I am off the hook a littlebit and for many young people it
is getting harder and harderand harder.
I think we're going to learn alot today.
(03:54):
I think we're going to learnabout what the dating seems like
for them, what she does as amatchmaker, and explore how we
might get involved.
Speaker 3 (04:03):
Yeah, I also along those lines.
I recently read an article thatsaid that, while just over half
of all American adults in theUnited States are single, a
recent survey by the PewResearch Center found that 61%
of never marrieds still hope tofind a spouse one day.
Which ends up to me being a lotof unhappily single people
(04:24):
under the age of 40 and a lot ofanxious boomer parents like us,
I suspect.
Speaker 1 (04:29):
You're exactly right.
Why don't you go ahead andintroduce Rachel and let's get
this party started?
Speaker 3 (04:35):
I would love to.
Rachel Greenwald has clientsacross the United States of all
ages.
She's a New York Timesbestselling author and
relationship expert and hasappeared on hundreds of
television, radio and podcastshows, including the Today Show,
abc Nightline, cbs Morning, nprand many others.
She's been featured inpublications such as the New
(04:56):
York Times, fortune, the HarvardBusiness Review, the New Yorker
, the Atlantic and oh, the OprahMagazine.
She was responsible for 908marriages and counting that's
pretty amazing, I know right,it's a crazy number and is the
author of two dating books.
Have Him at Hello, which isconfessions from a thousand guys
(05:16):
about what makes them fall inlove or never call back and Find
a Husband After 35, using whatI learned at Harvard Business
School.
So welcome, rachel.
Is there anything that wemissed that you would like to
share with our audience beforewe get started?
Speaker 2 (05:32):
No, thank you so much .
I'm really excited to be heretoday.
Speaker 1 (05:36):
We're glad to have you Tell us how you got into
this.
This whole I mean matchmakingis something that's been around
for a long time.
We've all watched Fiddler onthe Roof, but how did you get
into this?
Speaker 2 (05:48):
Well, actually it was pretty accidental.
It was about 22 years ago.
I was pregnant with my thirdchild and I was really just
looking for flexible work fromhome.
I did a bunch of research andeventually decided that writing
a book would be really flexibleand I could pick it up and put
(06:08):
it down whenever I wanted.
So I got this idea to write abook that eventually was called
Find a Husband After 35, usingwhat I learned at Harvard
Business School.
It was actually the publicityfrom the book that led to
inquiries on my website frompotential matchmaking clients.
I didn't even know it was abusiness, but that's how it got
(06:31):
started.
It's funny because back thenthe business of matchmaking was
in its infancy.
There were maybe I don't knowlike 25 matchmakers in the US
back then and now there'sprobably 6,000.
So there has been this massivegrowth.
I even teach a training coursenow for matchmakers, because
(06:54):
there's so many getting into thebusiness.
I call it the Love MBA and it'sa three-day retreat where I
teach matchmakers sort of theethics and the strategy and all
the tips and techniques to helpsingles find love.
Speaker 1 (07:12):
Gosh, I had no idea.
I used to watch that show onreality TV the Matchmaker, that
woman with the long dark hair,do you remember?
Did you ever watch that, rachel, I forget what it was even
called, but every often when youwant to just relax, you tune
into something like that.
Speaker 2 (07:27):
It was Patty Stanger and the Millionaire Matchmaker.
Speaker 1 (07:30):
That's what it was, oh I should clarify that.
Speaker 2 (07:32):
that is nothing like what I do.
Okay, she was built for realityTV.
She's very entertaining, butthe actual substance of what a
quality matchmaker does is verydifferent.
Speaker 1 (07:46):
Well, we're going to learn about it, right, Kirsten?
Speaker 3 (07:48):
Yeah, that's great, that's fun.
Speaker 1 (07:51):
You know the premise of our podcast Bite your Tongue.
So how can parents be helpfulin this without really being
intrusive?
It seems like something thatmaybe we shouldn't be involved
in.
Yet articles we've read.
Things you've said seem like wemight be a bit of a help, or a
matchmaker could be a bit of ahelp.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
Yeah, I think that's an interesting question because
it really depends how you'redefining help.
So the key part of yourquestion was how can parents be
helpful?
A lot of parents tell me thatthey feel like they're meddling,
even if they ask a simplequestion like so are you dating
anyone these days?
So I think there are many waysthat parents can be helpful in
(08:33):
the dating arena, but there areusually two scenarios.
There's adult kids who speakopenly with their parents about
their love lives, and thenthere's adult kids who hate
talking about dating with theirparents and want to avoid it at
all costs.
So the latter group I guess I'dcall the avoiders.
They're more challenging tohelp.
(08:54):
Of course, it can be atriggering topic for adults for
many reasons.
So I guess the key is to figureout the unique set of reasons
why your child wants to avoidthe topic.
You need to kind of pick a timewhen you know they're
relatively relaxed not whenthey're hungry or tired or
stressed about work but try tohave an open dialogue with them
(09:18):
to find out why they bristleabout this topic before you can
even try to help them.
So you want to clarify withthem that you don't want to talk
about their dating life rightnow, but you're simply asking
why it's a sore subject with youand you want to approach that
conversation, like allconversations you have with your
kids, with curiosity and usingphrases like tell me more about
(09:42):
that or help me understandphrases that are not judgmental.
I think that there are a lot ofways that you can help.
First, by understanding why thedynamics are occurring that may
be concerning you, or even justthat you're curious about.
If they're choosing the wrongpartners again and again.
(10:05):
You know, maybe they couldbenefit from a great therapist
to talk about their childhoodissues or issues around
self-esteem before they can evenstart to develop a healthy
relationship.
You can help simply having thisconversation to learn if they
feel like your questions implythat they've disappointed you or
(10:27):
there's something wrong withthem and you should address that
first, because you can't reallyhelp if they are resistant.
Remember that young adultsbenefit much more from your
questions than your advice.
So if you're trying to helpthem, it's not really about
advising or doing.
(10:47):
It's really just probing andasking them what they think they
should do in the situationbefore you jump in with any
advice.
That applies to anything thatwe do as parents.
Share stories about your owndating situations.
Our brains are wired to retainstories, and that's part of
(11:09):
having an open dialogue withthem, so just basic open
conversation can be the firsthelpful situation for avoiders.
There's, of course, anothergroup of adult kids who talk
openly about their dating liveswith you, and maybe the best way
to help them is simply to offerfinancial assistance if you can
(11:31):
afford it, like gifting themservices for matchmaking or
dating coaching may even be notjust lifting a financial burden
off of them, but maybe liftingan important psychological
burden from them.
A lot of young adults couldeven afford dating services, but
by paying money for somethingthat that age group
(11:54):
fundamentally thinks shouldhappen organically or
serendipitously, it can makethem feel like there's something
wrong with them, which, ofcourse, there's not.
Dating is just reallycomplicated today.
Speaker 3 (12:05):
Along that note of how complicated dating is today.
It seems to me and my childrenare obviously older, but it
seems to me that things havechanged a lot.
The meaning of what dating ishas changed quite a bit, and I
don't know how much of that isthis remote working pandemic,
the situation with their phonesand other technology, instagram.
(12:25):
You know how much of that isthis remote working pandemic,
the situation with their phonesand other technology, instagram,
social media, plus all thedating sites.
It's just a lot going on.
So how do you see all of thissort of affecting what's
happening in the dating worldtoday?
Speaker 2 (12:39):
Well, first and foremost, you're right that
dating has completely changedfrom when all of us were the
ages of our adult kids now,first of all, it's super common
to have dating apps and to getto know somebody electronically
before you even meet them inperson, and that's just the way
(13:00):
it is.
I think that parents need tounderstand the pressure and the
way that dating is so timeconsuming.
Now there's a lot ofgamification of dating with
these apps, where people areconstantly swiping and they're
making quick judgments based onsomeone's photo or a certain
(13:21):
line that they wrote in theirprofile.
Some people say that dating has, and therefore dating apps have
become all about who's the bestcomedian, because there's so
much pressure to be clever inyour dating texts on online.
So people are, first of all,turning this into a game.
(13:42):
They're making quick andsuperficial judgments about
things that probably aren't eventrue in person if they met in
real life, and then it can bevery demoralizing because it
takes so much time.
There's a really bad epidemicof ghosting people, meaning
someone that just disappearsafter expressing some interest.
(14:03):
Today, more than anything else,is a learned skill, and that's
something that wasn't true forus.
Speaker 1 (14:09):
What do you mean?
A learned skill?
I don't get that.
I was never a great dater.
Ever, praise the Lord, I metsomeone that understood who I
was.
Speaker 2 (14:17):
but why is it different now than it was before
, other than these dating apps,first of all, the skill that
your kids have to learn is kindof like marketing, because
dating is mostly online, it isnot as organic and natural as it
used to be before dating apps.
So the skill involved is, firstof all, learning that it's an
(14:41):
entirely visual medium to beginwith, and so knowing the kinds
of photos that you need toselect for yourself is the first
skill.
And the way that it's different, because people are taking two
seconds to look at your photoand then swiping left or right
and making all sorts ofassumptions about whether
(15:04):
they're attracted to you,whether you're their type.
Maybe they'll look at your joband then make all sorts of
assumptions about your job titleor anything that you write in
your profile.
That you may think is just acasual throwaway line or you're
trying to be funny, but somebodyelse takes the wrong way.
The coaching that's involved inhelping these young adults be
(15:24):
more successful in datingrevolves around helping them
select photos that representauthentically who they are, but
also putting their best footforward, and professional photos
, for example, is the firstthing that I advise young adults
.
I mean not just young adults,but singles at any age.
(15:45):
It kind of goes against thegrain of what you think in your
brain should be happening infinding love.
You know we're all victims ofromantic comedies and Hollywood
versions that you just meetsomebody serendipitously and
love will just spark.
But with this intermediarytoday, that is the online dating
(16:07):
app, this digital medium,there's a whole different
sequence and process that has tohappen.
It involves more of a marketingtechnique upfront, so that
people want to lean in and getto know you better and hopefully
meet you offline, and that'snot something that we had as
(16:28):
dinner conversation around thetable when our kids were growing
up.
Right, they don't learn this incollege or high school.
This is actually a skill, inthe way that learning a foreign
language is a skill.
Speaker 1 (16:40):
This is interesting to me.
We need to know what amatchmaker does.
I had no idea that you wouldhelp them with online kinds of
things too, because I have tosay, every wedding I've gone to
probably the last five years, ifyou ask the bride and groom, or
bride and bride or whoever itmight be they met online.
And I remember back when Ithought, oh, you met someone on
(17:00):
the computer.
That's terrible.
Now it seems like the best wayto meet people, so a matchmaker
might help with that.
Let's start with what amatchmaker does.
Speaker 2 (17:15):
Okay, well, so I should really start with saying
that matchmakers can't alwayshelp.
Let me clarify that, becauseit's not always the solution.
Matchmakers aren't like asilver bullet for everything
that could be going on with youradult child and their dating
life.
There could be emotional issues, maybe they're depressed or
they're having some kind ofself-destructive behavior, or
there could even be somethingmore subtle happening, like if
they have I don't knowmisaligned goals.
(17:37):
They say they want to date, butthen their actions aren't
consistent with that desire, sothey're working too much or
traveling too much.
Maybe they meet someone great,but then it takes two or three
weeks to schedule the next datebecause they've made themselves
so busy and then they'reunwilling to cancel their plan.
So by the time they're evenavailable to pursue someone, the
(17:58):
initial connection is fizzled.
There could be all sorts ofthings like that that a
matchmaker can't fix.
Those are maybe things that youcan point out, but it's not
going to solve the problem forevery situation.
But if an adult child isgenuinely interested and
committed to finding love,whether it's even just to
(18:19):
practice dating or to have aserious relationship, then a
matchmaker can help in a lot ofways.
I guess a big way would besimply as a sounding board, like
a thought partner, sort of anindependent, objective person in
their life who wants them to behappy without the biased agenda
that their family has.
The family says are they goingto fit into our family culture?
(18:43):
Which isn't the same as anindependent observer like a
matchmaker who says are theygoing to fit into our family
culture?
Which isn't the same as anindependent observer.
Like a matchmaker who says willthis person make you happy?
Matchmakers can offer advicethat isn't laden with judgment
or even childhood triggers.
Also, I think a really importantthing that I always try to
insert into every matchmakerrelationship I have with clients
(19:06):
is that I try to see the gapbetween what someone says they
want versus what they actuallyneed to be happy.
So I try to pose questions thatsomeone thinking deeper and
challenging their assumptionsabout what they're looking for.
I'm not afraid to call out thetruth.
I might say that hairstyleisn't working for you.
(19:28):
You know that's something I cansay and you can't.
As a parent or I can tell them.
They have a habit ofinterrupting people.
They should talk less andlisten more.
These are things that you canhear from an outside person, but
not your parent.
You know I obviously try to doit in a sensitive but helpful
way so it's not triggering.
But also, matchmakers getfeedback from dates that the
(19:50):
adult child goes on.
Oh, I didn't know that.
Yeah, absolutely.
So I always call both theclient and their date after they
meet and I get really candidfeedback to help them fine
tunetune their behaviors orthings they're saying that
didn't land well so they canadjust it next time in the
(20:10):
future.
We never get feedback.
We don't have access tofeedback.
We just know that somebodydidn't call us back and want a
second date, but we have no ideawhy a matchmaker can be that
intermediary.
But I guess what most peoplesay is the most helpful thing,
just from a process standpointor logistics, is that a
(20:33):
matchmaker or dating coach canjust help make the process
easier and less time consumingand less volatile, because
there's a lot of ups and downsin this dating app process where
you swipe right on somebodythat you like but they don't
swipe right back and that'sdemoralizing.
Or somebody is just flat outdishonest and when you meet them
(20:55):
in person they're nothing likewhat they said on their profile.
The dates through a matchmakerare vetted and they're handed to
you instead of making you gothrough all the rejections and
the time consuming back andforth that may end up turning
into nothing and wasting yourtime.
(21:16):
Very interesting.
Speaker 3 (21:18):
You've had.
A number of successfulmarriages have occurred from
your matchmaking.
How important is marriage toyoung adults today?
Has there been a shift in that?
There was a recent article byopinion columnist David Brooks
in the New York Times whoadvises young adults to
prioritize marriage over theircareers.
It received some intensepushback.
(21:41):
Have you seen this book and doyou have any thoughts about this
and marriage and where our kidsare today?
Speaker 2 (21:48):
Yeah, actually, I'm so glad you brought that up.
I love David Brooks.
He's one of my favoritecolumnists.
I love him too yeah, he's great.
So, if I remember correctly, hispoint was simply that young
people aren't so much againstmarriage, it's just not their
top priority.
So they feel like their careeris at the core of their life and
(22:09):
marriage is something thatwould be nice to have sometime
down the road.
I agree with his premise.
I really love that piece thathe wrote that you should use
your youth to prioritizeromantic relationships to get
some practice so that when itcomes time to seek marriage and
you're ready to start datingmaybe the last person you're
(22:30):
ever going to date that you haveknowledge of what works for you
and what doesn't, even if thattime that you're going to get
serious is a long time off.
So again, dating and selectinga life partner is a learned
skill, it's not a naturalinstinct, even though that
doesn't sound romantic.
As parents, I think it's moreimportant to invest in dating
(22:51):
resources for your child than itwas, say, to invest in an SAT
tutor when they were applying tocollege.
Where they went to college isfar less important in their
overall life happiness than whothey choose in a mate.
We're often really badpredictors of that, not just
young adults, but regular adultstoo.
(23:12):
There's actually this funnyphrase that we use behind closed
doors as matchmakers.
We say that buyers are liars.
It's termed from real estatewhere people go into a real
estate agent and they say I wantthis style architecture, I want
to buy a house in thisneighborhood, this is my budget,
(23:32):
oh, and it has to have a pool.
And the realtor runs around andshows them everything that fits
exactly what theirspecifications are, and the home
buyer just says no, no, no, no,doesn't feel right.
And then, maybe a little later,the realtor says can I show you
something different?
Can I show you this house thatI think you might like?
(23:54):
It's a different architecture,different budget, different
neighborhood and it doesn't havea pool.
And the buyer walks in and saysit's perfect, I love it.
It's just exactly the same thingin dating, where buyers are
liars.
They come into my office andthey tell me exactly what they
want.
They want a certain height, acertain hair color, a certain
(24:15):
career description or whateverit is, and it's usually
superficial or external markers.
They often say I love to ski,so the person has to ski.
Ultimately, those just aren'tthe things that end up making
them happy in a long-termrelationship.
A matchmaker usually tries todiscern the difference between
(24:39):
what someone says they wantversus what they actually need
to be happy.
I think that's a process thatDavid Brooks was getting at when
he said focus on dating andprioritizing relationships when
you're younger, so you get thatpractice and you learn about
yourself.
Speaker 1 (24:55):
That's so interesting .
I have about a thousandquestions going through my mind,
but I'm going to start with oneand get to the well, the one I
want down the road is thedifference between a matchmaker
and a dating coach, because youseem to be using those
interchangeably.
But first I want to ask this.
I thought of this question whenyou said professional photos
and stuff.
I guess I just feel like andagain maybe I can't wrap my head
around completely how timeshave changed.
(25:17):
I worry I don't want to changemyself too much when I'm meeting
someone.
I want someone to like me forwho I am, not for what I created
through my profile or throughhow.
The dating coach is asking meto not interrupt.
I interrupt all the time.
Whoever's going to marry mebetter be ready for that,
because that's my personality.
(25:37):
How do I give my whole self ofwho I am but still work within
your parameters that you'retalking about?
Does that?
Speaker 2 (25:46):
make any sense.
It totally does, denise.
I'm so glad you asked thatbecause it is something that is
on everyone's mind.
I think the first thing youhave to realize it goes back to
something I said earlier aboutthe skill of dating.
Today is marketing.
But I want to really clarifythis because it's about sequence
(26:07):
.
Because dating has moved online,there is inherently a process
of somebody looking at a photoand deciding whether or not they
want to learn more about you,and so the game then becomes
getting offline and meeting inperson so that two people can
(26:28):
really get to know each other.
If you don't have good photosnot misleading photos I want to
be really clear but just goodphotos.
Photos in outside natural light, photos where you're smiling,
not where you're wearingsunglasses.
Photos where you're wearingclothing that actually is
flattering and not rumpledclothing or baggy clothing where
(26:50):
somebody just doesn't even geta sense of whether you're fit
and healthy or whatever it isthat could be misleading about
the photo.
Some people, by the way, putphotos with their dog covering
their body.
It almost looks like the dog isa human shield.
There are just all sorts ofpsychology reasons why photos
(27:10):
aren't working for them, just toget in person.
It's not about pretending to besomebody you're not or putting
up misleading photos.
It's just trying to get thatfirst meeting In the job world.
If you were looking for a job,you put together a resume that
is your best foot forward.
(27:31):
It's talking about youraccomplishments and trying to
show off the best version ofyourself just to get the
interview.
And then, once you're in theinterview, then it becomes a
question of mutual fit.
So the sequence here is reallyimportant.
Of course no one should changeto catch a husband or catch a
(27:51):
wife.
The nuance of dating adviceisn't about trickery.
It's about making a great firstimpression so the other person
sees you at their best and seesthe traditionally desirable
parts first, so that theydevelop an attraction and an
emotion for you, so that thenthey can slowly start to see the
(28:14):
whole person that you are andevaluate the whole package.
So maybe I can give you anexample you mentioned you
interrupt all the time, but yourhusband loves you, I assume,
and so he takes the interruptionwith all the other good parts.
I'm really bossy, for example,but my husband still loves me,
so he deals with it.
(28:35):
But if I acted really bossy inour first date I don't know that
he would have had the patienceto get to know all of me so that
he could then take the goodwith the bad.
If that makes any sense, thatmakes a lot more sense.
Yeah, you want to be flexibleenough to say this part is
(29:01):
something that I'm going to haveto live with, or we have
developed good communicationskills so we can talk about
something that is bothering me.
Those are skills and behaviorsand a maturity that comes
through deepening a relationship.
That comes through deepening arelationship and it's not going
(29:24):
to be visible in the superficialdimension that is an online
dating profile on a dating app.
So, again, the game is justabout getting the first date
where someone can get to knowyou better.
Speaker 1 (29:37):
So we're going to take a quick break because many
of you know, I went to thispodcast conference in Denver a
few weeks ago and I met so manypeople with so many great
podcasts.
I've shared a few of them and Iwant to share one more.
That's so much fun, especiallyfor Valentine's day.
It's called Behind the Swipeand it's a podcast that takes
you inside the world of onlinedating in the second half of
(30:01):
life.
A lot of us always wonder youknow, if something happened to
our spouse or if we got divorced, would we date again?
It features real, unfilteredstories and perspectives from
men and women in their 40s, 50sand beyond as they navigate the
often confusing and sometimesthrilling experience of dating
(30:22):
with a swipe.
It sounds so scary to me.
Each week, hoyt the host and anexpert guest host explore
topics ranging fromlong-distance relationships,
profile fails to sex after 60,all through the lens of men and
women who have taken the plungeand are seeking partners online,
(30:43):
especially with this wholegolden bachelor thing or silver
bachelor, whatever it's called.
This is quite an interestinglook into dating later in life
behind the swipe.
I hope you'll listen In theworld of Tinder.
Speaker 3 (30:58):
Have you seen that changing how people date?
Because it doesn't seem to methat Tinder is a dating site
necessarily more of the hookupreputation and especially for
younger people.
But it's been around a longtime.
Speaker 2 (31:14):
I know a lot of people who meet on Tinder as
well as every other dating applike Hinge or Bumble.
It's just this entity out there, whether it's Tinder or another
(31:36):
app.
All dating apps or dating siteshave losers, jerks, weirdos and
creeps, but they also havewonderful human beings who would
make a great husband or wife.
These are mass mediums.
There's just so much volumethat you either have to invest
the time to do it yourself andstart swiping and texting and
(32:01):
then going on a lot of firstdates to weed through the ones
who are bad to find the ones whoare good, or you can have a
dating coach do that on yourbehalf.
Denise, you asked earlier aboutthe difference between a
matchmaker and a dating coach,actually a third category, which
is an online dating concierge.
(32:23):
So I can tell you the differencebetween all three.
Okay, go for it.
So an online dating conciergeis someone that logs into your
dating profile for you andswipes and messages on your
behalf, almost impersonating youand this is a very popular and
(32:46):
common thing now, and their jobis to try to get you as fast as
possible to a phone call orvideo date or in-person coffee
date.
They just try to take away thattop filter that is so time
consuming and annoying.
It's just full of superficialchatter, the swiping and then
(33:08):
the initial conversation likewhere are you from and what do
you do?
Your online dating concierge isanswering all those annoying
first demographic data questionsthat are really superficial and
then trying to convert it, ifthe guy or the girl sounds good,
into a phone call for you.
That's an online datingconcierge.
(33:30):
They also write your profilefor you.
They help you get good photos,but it's all focused on making
the dating app process lesspainful.
Then a dating coach is someonewho is giving you advice,
similar to, I don't know, like apersonal trainer at a gym.
You're doing the work of dating, but they're on the sidelines
(33:52):
telling you.
Here are some ways that you cando something different that
might have a different outcome,or I've noticed you tend to do
this.
Maybe if you tried it anotherway, it might work better.
Also, just being anaccountability partner and a
cheerleader in the process,because it really is a process
(34:12):
and it can get very discouraging.
A dating coach is really advicegiving and being an objective
partner in your dating journey.
And then, finally, a matchmakerdoes a lot of the work of a
dating coach but also adds inone-on-one introductions.
So a matchmaker has a privateRolodex of people that they know
(34:37):
or who have they've met, andjoined their Rolodex through
their website.
I mentioned earlier that thereare almost 6,000 matchmakers now
in the US.
Many of us are part of internalprivate groups, either on
Facebook or WhatsApp, and wehave access to each other's
clients and resources.
(34:58):
So we collaborate all the timewith each other and we do a lot
of things.
We reach out to our privatealumni networks from our
colleges or our grad schools.
We hire recruiters to go toevents or experiences and try to
look for single people thatmight be appropriate fits for
(35:19):
our clients.
Whether it's going to asynagogue event or a TEDx
conference or I don't know afundraiser for a good cause.
We hire recruiters to go outand look for matches that fit
what we're looking for for ourclient.
So there are a lot of ways thatwe find people and we then
(35:43):
think about what our clientreally needs to be happy and try
to make vetted and high qualityintroductions, one-on-one, to
set them up on a date.
Speaker 1 (35:54):
What's the median?
Speaker 2 (35:55):
age.
I don't know about the medianage, because the range is
probably anywhere from 23 to 80.
Oh my gosh.
But I'll tell you.
What's really interesting isthat the biggest growth segment
in my business and many of mycolleagues is the surge of
parents hiring dating coachesand matchmakers for their young
(36:19):
adults, hiring dating coachesand matchmakers for their young
adults.
And this is when I say youngadults, I mean early twenties to
early forties.
I had a dad recently call meabout his 42 year old daughter,
who he really just genuinelywanted to help, and he said is
there anything I can do in thosecases?
I say look, if I work with youryoung adult child, let me be
(36:41):
clear that your role is just topay the bill.
It can't be involved.
And so the client is your youngadult child.
And so if I'm going to workwith them, I need them to be
interested in this and we canhave an initial conversation,
but then it's likedoctor-patient confidentiality.
My role is to help them and Iwill send you the bill.
Speaker 1 (37:05):
This is making so much more sense to me.
I think about something I'vealways said that the most
important decision our childrenwill make in their lives is who
they select.
As a spouse, especially, youwant it to last.
I love a lot of what you offerand I think parents, whether
they pay for it or suggest it, Ithink it's a great.
Last, I love a lot of what youoffer and I think parents,
(37:25):
whether they pay for it orsuggest it, I think it's a great
idea.
I know the whole social mediaand all that, but I'm most
concerned about kids who areworking remotely.
They graduate college andthey're sitting in their
apartments all day.
I met all of my best friends inmy early work years and
continue to have those friends,so I worry a lot about that.
But what I really want to askis in them selecting their
partners on their own, do youthink that they choose their
(37:48):
romantic partners based on theirfamily environment they were
raised in?
How they grow up influence whothey're looking for?
Do they generally look forsomeone that's like their
parents?
What do you see going on here?
Speaker 2 (38:00):
Yeah, such a good question.
There are a lot of dynamicsthat are at play and I think
from the parent's perspectiveit's not always obvious.
It's usually not obvious whykids choose a particular partner
and what looks like someonewho's similar or opposite of
their mom or dad on the surfaceit's usually not indicative of
(38:21):
what's underneath in theirsubconscious.
Maybe it's something reallysimple and obvious on the
surface, Like I don't know, likemy mom worked full-time while
we were growing up, so I want tofind a woman who's passionate
about her career.
Or my dad had a great sense ofhumor, so I want a guy who makes
me laugh.
Sometimes it can be simple likethat and it's visible on the
(38:44):
surface, but usually it's notthat straightforward.
I don't know if you've heard ofthis well-known therapist and
author named Lori Gottlieb.
Speaker 1 (38:52):
Oh yeah, read her books yeah.
Speaker 2 (38:54):
Yeah, she's great.
She says this line that I'llnever forget, which is that we
marry our unfinished business.
Our young adults might say I'mgoing to subconsciously, by the
way that they might marrysomeone who's the opposite of
whatever hurt they had when theywere growing up.
Unfortunately, we have a radarfor what feels comfortable, what
(39:15):
feels like home.
We go after people who feelcomfortable.
Our subconscious mind might sayoh, you look familiar, come
closer.
Your inner child is saying I'mgoing to pick a partner who
gives me all the things I didn'tget when I was growing up but I
wish I had.
Their conscious mind mightthink this person doesn't look
(39:37):
anything like my parents on thesurface, but then, when they get
into that relationship thatthey're having with their
boyfriend or girlfriend, they'resurprised how familiar it feels
.
This kind of dynamic happens ifthey have a childhood hurt, and
again, it doesn't have to be adeep and serious hurt.
It could be something that isjust perceived as a pain or a
(40:00):
loss when they were growing up.
You may not have ever knownabout it, but if they don't work
out that unfinished business asan adult, either through
therapy or some deepintrospection or maybe even
trial and error in otherrelationships, then that's going
to play out in unhealthydynamics in their choice of a
(40:21):
partner.
I guess my advice to parents isthat if they're perplexed by
the choices that their adultkids are making, they need to
get curious and not judgmentalabout those choices.
When the moment is right, maybeyou could ask your child to
share what they love most abouttheir boyfriend or girlfriend
and really listen and respond byjust saying oh, that's
(40:41):
interesting, tell me more aboutthat, instead of trying to
convey some sort of judgmentlike oh, I don't know why you
think that's important.
That never mattered to me whenI was dating your father.
It's just this game oflistening to try to understand
how childhood dynamics areplaying out as adults.
Speaker 1 (41:00):
I want to piggyback on this question.
Kirsten asked about the hookupculture.
It seems to me that thisgeneration does hook up more
quickly than past generations.
How does that impact finding aspouse?
Do they waste time because thissexual excitement makes them
feel like they found the partnerand they realize when they
really get to know them it's notthe right partner.
(41:21):
How do you advise your clientson that?
Speaker 2 (41:24):
Well, it is a very real dynamic.
It is happening and we asparents are not going to have
much to say about it.
We can pretty much just tellthem to be safe and use
protection and get tested,because you may or may not know
that 50% of all adults over 18have an STD 50%, did you say.
(41:47):
Yes, 50% some kind of STD and itdoesn't mean they're having
symptoms.
It's not that it's always known, but I do always advise people
to get tested before being witha new partner.
I like to focus on the things Ican influence, and young adults
having sex more quickly than weused to when we were their age
(42:09):
is not something I can influence.
I can certainly tell somebodyto spend more time getting to
know a person before jumpinginto bed with them, but I think
what has been really interestingin my business since the
pandemic is that this may soundstrange, because the pandemic
was terrible in a million ways,but it was great for dating.
Speaker 1 (42:33):
Yeah, I've heard that , I know I just well.
Our friend, our mutual friend'sson, met his wife that he
recently married during COVID,and they sat on a park bench six
feet apart from each other forseveral months and talked.
Speaker 2 (42:47):
And that's a direct outcome of this hookup culture.
During the pandemic, you got toknow someone better, either
virtually or six feet apartbefore you took off your mask.
It helped young adults focus ondeeper and more important
qualities that predict long-termhappiness, without a lot of
other distraction.
(43:08):
I think those behaviors havemaybe lingered.
I don't know for sure.
I don't have any statistics,but I think that the video
dating component of meetingsomebody has grown out of the
pandemic.
When you have a FaceTime dateor a Zoom date before meeting in
(43:29):
person, which became reallynormal during COVID, you do get
to know somebody better beforeyou have a physical interaction
with them.
I do think that was one goodoutcome.
Also, by the way, the pandemicreally helped people prioritize
dating.
The loneliness and isolationthat came from quarantining
(43:50):
really lit a fire under singlesto realize that finding a
long-term partner and findinglove is maybe more important
than their jobs.
Speaker 3 (44:01):
That's a really interesting shift, I think.
I mean it's certainly apositive, I guess, of the
pandemic, if there can be one.
Speaker 1 (44:09):
Absolutely.
I want to get to the point thatthe role the family plays.
When someone has met thesignificant other or let's say,
your kid brings home someone andthey've been dating a while,
they're finally ready tointroduce them to the family the
family's going to be reallyimportant how they react to that
person, how they welcome thatperson.
We have a group text with ourwhole family.
(44:30):
How soon do you include thatperson in the group text?
Do you wait till they'reengaged, when they're married,
or never?
Or you know the family caneither make it or break it
possibly.
So how do you deal with that?
Or do you deal with the familyat all?
Speaker 2 (44:45):
Of course, the family is a big presence in a lot of
ways, both a literal presenceand an emotional presence.
I think there are a lot ofissues here.
First of all, there's the issueof whether or not the parents
approve of the partner andwhether or not they should say
anything.
Speaker 1 (45:03):
I was going to ask that Go ahead.
Speaker 2 (45:04):
It's really tough because as parents we're used to
giving our kids advice, havingthem listen and helping them
make decisions when they'reyounger, to know that we can't
tell them who to love, as muchas we wish we could choose their
partner and make that partnersomebody that we're excited
(45:26):
about as an entire family.
That's going to fit right intoour family culture.
I don't think we really havethat right anymore.
I think you have to understandthat there's probably a window
of time when you can indicatesome kind of concern about your
child's choice in a boyfriend orgirlfriend, and that window of
(45:48):
time is early on in theirrelationship.
If you bite your tongue for ayear or two while they're dating
somebody and then it getsserious and suddenly you express
your disapproval after they'vefallen in love or they're about
to get engaged, you're risking alifetime of alienation from
your child.
Frankly, at that point theirallegiance is going to be to
(46:09):
their partner and they're goingto tell their partner everything
you said about them.
And that partner will neverforget it.
That partner will be married toyour child for 20 or 30 years
and they will always rememberthat you weren't on their side
or you had a concern.
So, practically speaking, ifthere is a concern, you need to
(46:30):
bring it up sooner than later,and I wouldn't really convey
disapproval, but you have to doit in terms of asking questions.
Yeah, and so you also have todiscern between what's important
to you but maybe not to yourchild, because they have their
own tastes and values andemotional needs.
(46:52):
You can ask them validquestions, but not questions
about like that reflect your ownpreferences.
For example, I don't know ifyou have a concern that their
boyfriend or girlfriend hasanger issues or they have
fundamental different valuesabout honesty or integrity or
(47:14):
loyalty, then formulate somequestions with a third party.
Don't go directly to your childwith your knee-jerk questions.
Pause and try to find a neutralthird party, like a wise family
friend, or maybe if you'reseeing a therapist and say
here's my concern, can you helpme formulate the right questions
(47:37):
for my child that aren't ladenwith disapproval or judgment?
I guess that's like the firststep and I don't know.
I think that you have to reallyask this question or this
prompt tell me more.
Because you're trying touncover what they really get
(48:02):
emotionally from a partner thatyou may not see or understand.
But if you bring up the topicof their partner and ask
questions like I'm so curious,you know what's one of your
favorite things about thisperson you just start using this
phrase tell me more, tell memore.
You're going to get to thething behind the thing behind
(48:24):
the thing.
Ultimately, the headline ofwhat they initially tell you is
never really going to be what'sgoing on underneath.
If you can go deeper in theseconversations and understand
something that may be happeningbehind closed doors that you
don't see, you never understoodabout what your child needs you
(48:45):
may actually come to love andappreciate their partner more
than ever.
Speaker 1 (48:50):
I absolutely agree with that.
Speaker 3 (48:52):
And it's very interesting.
I was just thinking.
You know most of our audienceare probably 50 plus.
Does your advice change forthis age group?
Speaker 2 (49:04):
Not at all.
You know it's funny, it's it'sreally timeless.
I mean for older singles or youknow, I guess 50 plus I don't
even like to call that older,but you know online dating is
essential at any age, even ifyou don't like it and nobody
does.
By the way, there's 50 millionpeople dating online and there's
not one single person who likesit.
It's a means to an end.
(49:24):
You can use an online datingconcierge, but you need
professional photos and it worksif you do it right.
So, just like for our kids,dating is a skill.
You can't get stuck in thenotion that it's going to be as
easy as it was in your 20s andit'll just happen when it's
(49:45):
right.
You should be proactive andit'll just happen when it's
right.
You should be proactive andwhether it's hiring a matchmaker
or dating coach, if you canafford it or there's so many
free resources or inexpensiveresources like reading books or
listening to podcasts or justeven asking your friends for
feedback about things like yourwardrobe or your hairstyle or
(50:06):
your conversation skills but youneed an objective opinion
before you go out into thedating world, because if you
invest the time upfront to dodating right, especially later
in life, it's just going tohappen so much faster.
I guess the only other thingthat comes to mind about older
singles is that they often havean excuse for why they're going
(50:32):
to do it later.
They're going to put off datingwhen they lose 10 pounds, or
when their kids go to college orwhen they're not so busy with
this project.
I just want to say to them thatlife is short and there is
absolutely someone out there foryou at any age, any city, any
(50:52):
body type, any religion.
It's just.
The wonderful world of onlinedating is that it gives you so
much more access to people thatyou would never have met if you
were back on a college campus orback in a work environment
(51:13):
where the number of people inyour circles was just so much
smaller.
The world is big and there's alot of amazing people out there,
but you have to learn the skillof doing it right.
Speaker 1 (51:24):
Very interesting.
I have to ask you about yourfee schedule.
How does it work?
How much do people pay, or doyou have a range?
What would our listeners needto know if they wanted someone
like you to work with theirfamily or their adult child?
Speaker 2 (51:37):
Well, most matchmakers and dating coaches
don't have fees that are like aone size fits all.
It's not like a set pricebecause it's a function of how
much time I would spend helpingsomeone.
It's not like a set pricebecause it's a function of how
much time I would spend helpingsomeone.
It's more like being anexecutive recruiter.
Some searches are faster andeasier than others.
Sometimes all a person needs,honestly, is like a one hour
(51:59):
coaching session to tell themthe key things to do and then,
if they're smart and proactive,they might be able to take it
from there.
They might not even need me orsomebody on an ongoing basis.
So fees you asked about thestructure.
They're usually structuredeither hourly for coaching or
sometimes like monthly coachingpackages, and then matchmaking
(52:22):
fees are typically a monthlyretainer with like a three-month
minimum, and then there'susually a success fee attached.
Success is always definedindividually.
It doesn't always mean marriage.
Often it means marriage, butsometimes it just means having a
committed relationship for ayear, or it could mean something
intangible like, I don't know,feeling energized or
(52:45):
self-confident about yourselfand just getting experience with
dating If you don't have a lotof experience in the past.
I always co-create the meaningof success with each client.
It's really expensive to hire amatchmaker or a dating coach.
It's a very bespoke conciergeservice but you don't have to
(53:07):
pay a lot of money for advice.
You know there's a lot of greatresources out there for your
young adult kids.
You could gift them books.
Do you want to hear some of myfavorite books?
Speaker 1 (53:18):
Sure, sure, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (53:20):
Go ahead, you've been so great.
Speaker 1 (53:22):
I've loved every minute of it.
Go ahead.
Speaker 2 (53:24):
There are.
Some of my favorite datingbooks are Attached by Amir
Levine.
I also like how to Not DieAlone by Logan Urie oh, I've
heard of that one, okay.
And Lori Gottlieb's book MarryHim is really good.
There's a lot of great datingpodcasts out there.
Those are all free.
There's one called let's TalkLove.
(53:45):
There's another one I likecalled Dear Matchmaker, another
one called the Asian DatingPodcast.
There's one called the Yentasthere are just so many and
there's also inexpensive onlinedating boot camps that are out
there.
So, instead of a one-on-oneservice with a private
matchmaker or dating concierge,there are these really
(54:08):
inexpensive online resourcesLike.
There's an online course calledSmart Dating Bootcamp by
Michelle Jacoby, which isexcellent.
There's another online datingclass called Propel with Logan
Urie, so you can just Google it.
Speaker 1 (54:26):
And I'll put links.
We'll put links to all of thatin our episode notes.
How different is it for youngpeople who come from a family
where their parents had adifficult marriage, whether it
be divorce or whether it was nota happy home to be in?
How is that for them lookingfor a spouse?
I mean I've heard some say Inever want to get married.
(54:47):
I haven't seen an example of ahappy marriage.
How is that for them lookingfor a spouse?
I mean I've heard some say Inever want to get married.
Speaker 2 (54:52):
I haven't seen an example of a happy marriage.
How is that for them?
Oh, it's such a powerfulquestion because I think there's
an assumption out there thatchildren who come from divorced
families might have a hardertime making a commitment and
finding the right partnerbecause they grew up in an
environment where they knew thatmarriage may be temporary or
(55:15):
that there was a lot of frictionbetween two parents that caused
unhappiness or whatever.
There are a million ways thatit's impacted them.
But I'll tell you somethingcounterintuitive I have actually
seen that it is the youngadults whose parents were
happily married for 25 or 50years that have the harder time
(55:38):
finding the right spouse.
And let me explain why becausethey feel sort of almost a
unrealistic belief that marriageis perfect and that what they
saw as a child is that myparents didn't fight, my parents
were always happy, my mom isperfect, my dad is perfect, had
(56:03):
such a happy marriage ultimatelymay not have shown some of the
not so great parts in front oftheir children, who then get
into real relationships as youngadults that could be very good
and strong and lovingrelationships, but not perfect.
No one's relationship isperfect, and so when they hit a
(56:24):
speed bump in that relationship,they automatically think that
that's not going to be the rightperson for them because it
doesn't mirror their illusion ofwhat they grew up thinking
about their parents' marriage,whereas young adults who grew up
in a divorced home they mayoften have trust issues or a lot
(56:47):
of doubts about certain thingsand fears about marriage.
But they also probably have seenthat even if a divorce happens,
even if they pick a partnerthat doesn't end up working out
in the long run, they've seen,hopefully, that their mom and
their dad went on to still behappy that they got divorced.
They went on to meet somebodyelse and hopefully they were
(57:11):
happier and it wasn't the end ofthe world.
And even if you're a youngadult whose parents got divorced
and is maybe still single orisn't super happy after that
divorce, they still have a greatlife probably.
And just knowing that divorceisn't the end of the world
(57:32):
actually helps them choosepartners that know how to have
healthy and productive conflictand partners that aren't perfect
but make them happy.
And those choices are oftenstronger than the inaction that
I see a lot of kids make becausethey can't commit to something
(57:53):
that's not perfect.
Speaker 3 (57:55):
Wow, that's powerful.
Speaker 1 (57:57):
Very powerful.
Kirsten, I've talked a lot.
You asked for the takeaways.
Speaker 3 (58:02):
Okay, absolutely Before we say goodbye and this
has really been amazing.
You've answered a ton of ourquestions and helped explain
some of what we're certainlyseeing with our kids and their
dating habits or not datinghabits, depending on the day.
I always like to ask for two tothree takeaways that you want
our listeners to really thinkabout and remember.
(58:24):
Can you share those with us?
Speaker 2 (58:25):
Sure, it's hard to just boil it down to two or
three, but I guess thefundamental takeaway I would
want parents to understand andto convey to their young adult
kids is simply that dating is alearned skill, like learning a
foreign language, and it'ssomething your adult child can
(58:46):
get better at.
It's not a fixed situation,because dating is more
complicated today with onlinedating apps and everything else
that we've talked about.
It's just really important forparents to offer help in any way
that makes sense for them,whether it's just listening and
having open conversations,whether it's helping them
(59:08):
financially with some datingresources.
It's very normal and, I think,very positive today, of course,
you have to let your adult childchoose their own partner.
You can't tell them who to love, but you can support them in so
many ways by initiating openconversation ways.
(59:32):
By initiating open conversation.
Remember that phrase Imentioned tell me more, and just
keep saying it.
Tell me more, tell me moreuntil they tell you the thing
behind the thing behind thething, what's really going on,
and understanding that, as aparent, is ultimately going to
direct you toward the best wayyou can help them.
Speaker 1 (59:50):
That was wonderful, Rachel.
Thank you so much.
This certainly changed my mindabout matchmaking and dating
resources.
I've learned so much about thedating world that I had no idea.
Speaker 2 (01:00:01):
I'm so glad I got a chance to talk to you.
I am such a big fan of the Biteyour Tongue podcast.
I've been telling all myfriends that they have to listen
to this, so it was really anhonor to have this conversation
with both of you today.
Speaker 3 (01:00:15):
Thank you, rachel.
This was really really special.
I appreciate it.
There are some things I'm goingto be sharing with my children.
Speaker 1 (01:00:21):
Ditto, ditto, ditto.
Thanks a lot, so that's a wrap.
I hope all of you enjoyeddipping into this world of
dating and our young adultchildren as much as I did.
I think I didn't realize howlittle I understood about this
new world of dating, and I hopeyou will listen to the podcast
(01:00:41):
we mentioned during the episodethat was about dating at our age
, behind the Swipe.
I think you'll find itinteresting and fun.
Kirsten, what was your takeawaytoday?
It was quite an episode.
Speaker 3 (01:00:53):
Wow, it was great.
I think the most importantthing I heard for me is just
this really is a skillset, andis there a way we can teach our
kids what those skills are atsome point before they are
adults?
Speaker 1 (01:01:07):
And I guess her what was her phrase?
She always wanted to say tellme more, tell me more.
I took that away as well.
Thanks again to all ourlisteners.
Remember to support our work.
By going to our website andclicking the support us tab.
You'll find a way to buy us avirtual cup of coffee.
It's just five bucks.
Also, follow us on social media.
Send us your ideas andquestions to
(01:01:28):
biteyourtonguepodcastcom.
Speaker 3 (01:01:31):
And thank you again to Connie Gordon Fisher, our
audio engineer.
Speaker 2 (01:01:41):
Have a great Valentine's Day everybody, but
remember, sometimes you justhave to bite your tongue.
Hey everyone.
It's Denise.
This is one of our last rewinds.
I think there's just one moreafter this, but how could we go
on and not play this one again?
This is from Season 3, shouldParents Medal in their Adult
Child's Dating Life?
We talked to Rachel Greenwald,a renowned matchmaker, and she
shares if, when and how tonavigate this tricky issue.
(00:21):
She shares if, when and how tonavigate this tricky issue.
At first I thought who wouldever meddle in their children's
dating life?
But take a listen and see whatyou think.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
So let's get started.
As young adults, I think wehave to know that we can't tell
them who to love.
As much as we wish we couldchoose their partner, you have
to understand that there'sprobably a window of time when
you can indicate some kind ofconcern about your child's
choice in a boyfriend orgirlfriend, and that window of
(00:59):
time is early on in theirrelationship.
If you bite your tongue for ayear or two while they're dating
somebody and then it getsserious and suddenly you express
your disapproval after they'vefallen in love or they're about
to get engaged, you're risking alifetime of alienation from
your child.
Frankly, at that point theirallegiance is going to be to
(01:21):
their partner and they're goingto tell their partner everything
you said about them.
And that partner will neverforget it.
Speaker 1 (01:29):
Before we start, I just want to say, Kirsten, I'm
so glad you're with me.
I think we're moving along andwe're finally clicking a few
episodes in.
Thanks so much for joining me.
Speaker 3 (01:39):
Thank you so much, denise.
This has really been a funexperience and I'm excited to be
a part of this very importantconversation.
And with that, it's almostValentine's day.
Hard to believe, hard tobelieve, all right.
So we thought we would talkabout dating and love lives,
specifically our adultchildren's love lives.
Should parents be talking aboutthis?
(02:00):
Very weird, very weird, I know.
And so, because we're not sosure, we thought that we would
welcome celebrity matchmaker anddating coach Rachel Greenwald
today.
Speaker 1 (02:12):
Valentine's Day, Rachel Greenwald.
I've known Rachel for a while.
She's from Denver, but she'sreally hit it big with this
matchmaking, so it should be aninteresting conversation.
Yeah, For me Valentine's Day.
I don't know how you feel and Iwonder what our listeners feel.
I hate Valentine's Day.
I hate Valentine's Day and Ihate Mother's Day.
There's so much pressure tosend Valentine's cards, Tell
(02:34):
your mother you love her.
Do you guys do this?
How do you?
I always wonder what otherpeople feel about these holidays
.
Speaker 3 (02:40):
Now we're in agreement on this.
We stopped celebratingValentine's Day years ago, and
when the kids were little I usedto buy them chocolate, until
the day that the dog got intothe chocolate, and then that was
the end of that as well.
Speaker 1 (02:52):
Oh, that's so funny.
I grew up in a candy store.
Family Easter, valentine's andChristmas were the biggest
holidays, so it's weird for menow not to be buying chocolates
and Valentine hearts, but itjust seems so contrived, no to
be buying chocolates andValentine hearts, but it just
seems so contrived.
Speaker 3 (03:06):
No, I agree, I said this to my whole family you have
to love and appreciate me allyear long, every day.
Speaker 1 (03:11):
Yeah Well, good luck with that, but you're sure
you're ahead of me on that one.
But you're absolutely right.
All right, we need to getstarted here.
Many parents of adult kids doworry Is my son or daughter
going to meet their life partner?
And I have to say, just havingmy daughter she's been in this
relationship for 16 years butshe just got married.
I do feel good when my kids arein a relationship and it's
(03:34):
someone I like, although, again,we don't really have a choice,
but I feel like someone that'sgoing to love them and hopefully
care for them.
I feel a little bit like theyhave their soulmate and that, I
don't want to say, leaves me offthe hook.
But I am off the hook a littlebit and for many young people it
is getting harder and harderand harder.
I think we're going to learn alot today.
(03:54):
I think we're going to learnabout what the dating seems like
for them, what she does as amatchmaker, and explore how we
might get involved.
Speaker 3 (04:03):
Yeah, I also along those lines.
I recently read an article thatsaid that, while just over half
of all American adults in theUnited States are single, a
recent survey by the PewResearch Center found that 61%
of never marrieds still hope tofind a spouse one day.
Which ends up to me being a lotof unhappily single people
(04:24):
under the age of 40 and a lot ofanxious boomer parents like us,
I suspect.
Speaker 1 (04:29):
You're exactly right.
Why don't you go ahead andintroduce Rachel and let's get
this party started?
Speaker 3 (04:35):
I would love to.
Rachel Greenwald has clientsacross the United States of all
ages.
She's a New York Timesbestselling author and
relationship expert and hasappeared on hundreds of
television, radio and podcastshows, including the Today Show,
abc Nightline, cbs Morning, nprand many others.
She's been featured inpublications such as the New
(04:56):
York Times, fortune, the HarvardBusiness Review, the New Yorker
, the Atlantic and oh, the OprahMagazine.
She was responsible for 908marriages and counting that's
pretty amazing, I know right,it's a crazy number and is the
author of two dating books.
Have Him at Hello, which isconfessions from a thousand guys
(05:16):
about what makes them fall inlove or never call back and Find
a Husband After 35, using whatI learned at Harvard Business
School.
So welcome, rachel.
Is there anything that wemissed that you would like to
share with our audience beforewe get started?
Speaker 2 (05:32):
No, thank you so much .
I'm really excited to be heretoday.
Speaker 1 (05:36):
We're glad to have you Tell us how you got into
this.
This whole I mean matchmakingis something that's been around
for a long time.
We've all watched Fiddler onthe Roof, but how did you get
into this?
Speaker 2 (05:48):
Well, actually it was pretty accidental.
It was about 22 years ago.
I was pregnant with my thirdchild and I was really just
looking for flexible work fromhome.
I did a bunch of research andeventually decided that writing
a book would be really flexibleand I could pick it up and put
(06:08):
it down whenever I wanted.
So I got this idea to write abook that eventually was called
Find a Husband After 35, usingwhat I learned at Harvard
Business School.
It was actually the publicityfrom the book that led to
inquiries on my website frompotential matchmaking clients.
I didn't even know it was abusiness, but that's how it got
(06:31):
started.
It's funny because back thenthe business of matchmaking was
in its infancy.
There were maybe I don't knowlike 25 matchmakers in the US
back then and now there'sprobably 6,000.
So there has been this massivegrowth.
I even teach a training coursenow for matchmakers, because
(06:54):
there's so many getting into thebusiness.
I call it the Love MBA and it'sa three-day retreat where I
teach matchmakers sort of theethics and the strategy and all
the tips and techniques to helpsingles find love.
Speaker 1 (07:12):
Gosh, I had no idea.
I used to watch that show onreality TV the Matchmaker, that
woman with the long dark hair,do you remember?
Did you ever watch that, rachel, I forget what it was even
called, but every often when youwant to just relax, you tune
into something like that.
Speaker 2 (07:27):
It was Patty Stanger and the Millionaire Matchmaker.
Speaker 1 (07:30):
That's what it was, oh I should clarify that.
Speaker 2 (07:32):
that is nothing like what I do.
Okay, she was built for realityTV.
She's very entertaining, butthe actual substance of what a
quality matchmaker does is verydifferent.
Speaker 1 (07:46):
Well, we're going to learn about it, right, Kirsten?
Speaker 3 (07:48):
Yeah, that's great, that's fun.
Speaker 1 (07:51):
You know the premise of our podcast Bite your Tongue.
So how can parents be helpfulin this without really being
intrusive?
It seems like something thatmaybe we shouldn't be involved
in.
Yet articles we've read.
Things you've said seem like wemight be a bit of a help, or a
matchmaker could be a bit of ahelp.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
Yeah, I think that's an interesting question because
it really depends how you'redefining help.
So the key part of yourquestion was how can parents be
helpful?
A lot of parents tell me thatthey feel like they're meddling,
even if they ask a simplequestion like so are you dating
anyone these days?
So I think there are many waysthat parents can be helpful in
(08:33):
the dating arena, but there areusually two scenarios.
There's adult kids who speakopenly with their parents about
their love lives, and thenthere's adult kids who hate
talking about dating with theirparents and want to avoid it at
all costs.
So the latter group I guess I'dcall the avoiders.
They're more challenging tohelp.
(08:54):
Of course, it can be atriggering topic for adults for
many reasons.
So I guess the key is to figureout the unique set of reasons
why your child wants to avoidthe topic.
You need to kind of pick a timewhen you know they're
relatively relaxed not whenthey're hungry or tired or
stressed about work but try tohave an open dialogue with them
(09:18):
to find out why they bristleabout this topic before you can
even try to help them.
So you want to clarify withthem that you don't want to talk
about their dating life rightnow, but you're simply asking
why it's a sore subject with youand you want to approach that
conversation, like allconversations you have with your
kids, with curiosity and usingphrases like tell me more about
(09:42):
that or help me understandphrases that are not judgmental.
I think that there are a lot ofways that you can help.
First, by understanding why thedynamics are occurring that may
be concerning you, or even justthat you're curious about.
If they're choosing the wrongpartners again and again.
(10:05):
You know, maybe they couldbenefit from a great therapist
to talk about their childhoodissues or issues around
self-esteem before they can evenstart to develop a healthy
relationship.
You can help simply having thisconversation to learn if they
feel like your questions implythat they've disappointed you or
(10:27):
there's something wrong withthem and you should address that
first, because you can't reallyhelp if they are resistant.
Remember that young adultsbenefit much more from your
questions than your advice.
So if you're trying to helpthem, it's not really about
advising or doing.
(10:47):
It's really just probing andasking them what they think they
should do in the situationbefore you jump in with any
advice.
That applies to anything thatwe do as parents.
Share stories about your owndating situations.
Our brains are wired to retainstories, and that's part of
(11:09):
having an open dialogue withthem, so just basic open
conversation can be the firsthelpful situation for avoiders.
There's, of course, anothergroup of adult kids who talk
openly about their dating liveswith you, and maybe the best way
to help them is simply to offerfinancial assistance if you can
(11:31):
afford it, like gifting themservices for matchmaking or
dating coaching may even be notjust lifting a financial burden
off of them, but maybe liftingan important psychological
burden from them.
A lot of young adults couldeven afford dating services, but
by paying money for somethingthat that age group
(11:54):
fundamentally thinks shouldhappen organically or
serendipitously, it can makethem feel like there's something
wrong with them, which, ofcourse, there's not.
Dating is just reallycomplicated today.
Speaker 3 (12:05):
Along that note of how complicated dating is today.
It seems to me and my childrenare obviously older, but it
seems to me that things havechanged a lot.
The meaning of what dating ishas changed quite a bit, and I
don't know how much of that isthis remote working pandemic,
the situation with their phonesand other technology, instagram.
(12:25):
You know how much of that isthis remote working pandemic,
the situation with their phonesand other technology, instagram,
social media, plus all thedating sites.
It's just a lot going on.
So how do you see all of thissort of affecting what's
happening in the dating worldtoday?
Speaker 2 (12:39):
Well, first and foremost, you're right that
dating has completely changedfrom when all of us were the
ages of our adult kids now,first of all, it's super common
to have dating apps and to getto know somebody electronically
before you even meet them inperson, and that's just the way
(13:00):
it is.
I think that parents need tounderstand the pressure and the
way that dating is so timeconsuming.
Now there's a lot ofgamification of dating with
these apps, where people areconstantly swiping and they're
making quick judgments based onsomeone's photo or a certain
(13:21):
line that they wrote in theirprofile.
Some people say that dating has, and therefore dating apps have
become all about who's the bestcomedian, because there's so
much pressure to be clever inyour dating texts on online.
So people are, first of all,turning this into a game.
(13:42):
They're making quick andsuperficial judgments about
things that probably aren't eventrue in person if they met in
real life, and then it can bevery demoralizing because it
takes so much time.
There's a really bad epidemicof ghosting people, meaning
someone that just disappearsafter expressing some interest.
(14:03):
Today, more than anything else,is a learned skill, and that's
something that wasn't true forus.
Speaker 1 (14:09):
What do you mean?
A learned skill?
I don't get that.
I was never a great dater.
Ever, praise the Lord, I metsomeone that understood who I
was.
Speaker 2 (14:17):
but why is it different now than it was before
, other than these dating apps,first of all, the skill that
your kids have to learn is kindof like marketing, because
dating is mostly online, it isnot as organic and natural as it
used to be before dating apps.
So the skill involved is, firstof all, learning that it's an
(14:41):
entirely visual medium to beginwith, and so knowing the kinds
of photos that you need toselect for yourself is the first
skill.
And the way that it's different, because people are taking two
seconds to look at your photoand then swiping left or right
and making all sorts ofassumptions about whether
(15:04):
they're attracted to you,whether you're their type.
Maybe they'll look at your joband then make all sorts of
assumptions about your job titleor anything that you write in
your profile.
That you may think is just acasual throwaway line or you're
trying to be funny, but somebodyelse takes the wrong way.
The coaching that's involved inhelping these young adults be
(15:24):
more successful in datingrevolves around helping them
select photos that representauthentically who they are, but
also putting their best footforward, and professional photos
, for example, is the firstthing that I advise young adults
.
I mean not just young adults,but singles at any age.
(15:45):
It kind of goes against thegrain of what you think in your
brain should be happening infinding love.
You know we're all victims ofromantic comedies and Hollywood
versions that you just meetsomebody serendipitously and
love will just spark.
But with this intermediarytoday, that is the online dating
(16:07):
app, this digital medium,there's a whole different
sequence and process that has tohappen.
It involves more of a marketingtechnique upfront, so that
people want to lean in and getto know you better and hopefully
meet you offline, and that'snot something that we had as
(16:28):
dinner conversation around thetable when our kids were growing
up.
Right, they don't learn this incollege or high school.
This is actually a skill, inthe way that learning a foreign
language is a skill.
Speaker 1 (16:40):
This is interesting to me.
We need to know what amatchmaker does.
I had no idea that you wouldhelp them with online kinds of
things too, because I have tosay, every wedding I've gone to
probably the last five years, ifyou ask the bride and groom, or
bride and bride or whoever itmight be they met online.
And I remember back when Ithought, oh, you met someone on
(17:00):
the computer.
That's terrible.
Now it seems like the best wayto meet people, so a matchmaker
might help with that.
Let's start with what amatchmaker does.
Speaker 2 (17:15):
Okay, well, so I should really start with saying
that matchmakers can't alwayshelp.
Let me clarify that, becauseit's not always the solution.
Matchmakers aren't like asilver bullet for everything
that could be going on with youradult child and their dating
life.
There could be emotional issues, maybe they're depressed or
they're having some kind ofself-destructive behavior, or
there could even be somethingmore subtle happening, like if
they have I don't knowmisaligned goals.
(17:37):
They say they want to date, butthen their actions aren't
consistent with that desire, sothey're working too much or
traveling too much.
Maybe they meet someone great,but then it takes two or three
weeks to schedule the next datebecause they've made themselves
so busy and then they'reunwilling to cancel their plan.
So by the time they're evenavailable to pursue someone, the
(17:58):
initial connection is fizzled.
There could be all sorts ofthings like that that a
matchmaker can't fix.
Those are maybe things that youcan point out, but it's not
going to solve the problem forevery situation.
But if an adult child isgenuinely interested and
committed to finding love,whether it's even just to
(18:19):
practice dating or to have aserious relationship, then a
matchmaker can help in a lot ofways.
I guess a big way would besimply as a sounding board, like
a thought partner, sort of anindependent, objective person in
their life who wants them to behappy without the biased agenda
that their family has.
The family says are they goingto fit into our family culture?
(18:43):
Which isn't the same as anindependent observer like a
matchmaker who says are theygoing to fit into our family
culture?
Which isn't the same as anindependent observer.
Like a matchmaker who says willthis person make you happy?
Matchmakers can offer advicethat isn't laden with judgment
or even childhood triggers.
Also, I think a really importantthing that I always try to
insert into every matchmakerrelationship I have with clients
(19:06):
is that I try to see the gapbetween what someone says they
want versus what they actuallyneed to be happy.
So I try to pose questions thatsomeone thinking deeper and
challenging their assumptionsabout what they're looking for.
I'm not afraid to call out thetruth.
I might say that hairstyleisn't working for you.
(19:28):
You know that's something I cansay and you can't.
As a parent or I can tell them.
They have a habit ofinterrupting people.
They should talk less andlisten more.
These are things that you canhear from an outside person, but
not your parent.
You know I obviously try to doit in a sensitive but helpful
way so it's not triggering.
But also, matchmakers getfeedback from dates that the
(19:50):
adult child goes on.
Oh, I didn't know that.
Yeah, absolutely.
So I always call both theclient and their date after they
meet and I get really candidfeedback to help them fine
tunetune their behaviors orthings they're saying that
didn't land well so they canadjust it next time in the
(20:10):
future.
We never get feedback.
We don't have access tofeedback.
We just know that somebodydidn't call us back and want a
second date, but we have no ideawhy a matchmaker can be that
intermediary.
But I guess what most peoplesay is the most helpful thing,
just from a process standpointor logistics, is that a
(20:33):
matchmaker or dating coach canjust help make the process
easier and less time consumingand less volatile, because
there's a lot of ups and downsin this dating app process where
you swipe right on somebodythat you like but they don't
swipe right back and that'sdemoralizing.
Or somebody is just flat outdishonest and when you meet them
(20:55):
in person they're nothing likewhat they said on their profile.
The dates through a matchmakerare vetted and they're handed to
you instead of making you gothrough all the rejections and
the time consuming back andforth that may end up turning
into nothing and wasting yourtime.
(21:16):
Very interesting.
Speaker 3 (21:18):
You've had.
A number of successfulmarriages have occurred from
your matchmaking.
How important is marriage toyoung adults today?
Has there been a shift in that?
There was a recent article byopinion columnist David Brooks
in the New York Times whoadvises young adults to
prioritize marriage over theircareers.
It received some intensepushback.
(21:41):
Have you seen this book and doyou have any thoughts about this
and marriage and where our kidsare today?
Speaker 2 (21:48):
Yeah, actually, I'm so glad you brought that up.
I love David Brooks.
He's one of my favoritecolumnists.
I love him too yeah, he's great.
So, if I remember correctly, hispoint was simply that young
people aren't so much againstmarriage, it's just not their
top priority.
So they feel like their careeris at the core of their life and
(22:09):
marriage is something thatwould be nice to have sometime
down the road.
I agree with his premise.
I really love that piece thathe wrote that you should use
your youth to prioritizeromantic relationships to get
some practice so that when itcomes time to seek marriage and
you're ready to start datingmaybe the last person you're
(22:30):
ever going to date that you haveknowledge of what works for you
and what doesn't, even if thattime that you're going to get
serious is a long time off.
So again, dating and selectinga life partner is a learned
skill, it's not a naturalinstinct, even though that
doesn't sound romantic.
As parents, I think it's moreimportant to invest in dating
(22:51):
resources for your child than itwas, say, to invest in an SAT
tutor when they were applying tocollege.
Where they went to college isfar less important in their
overall life happiness than whothey choose in a mate.
We're often really badpredictors of that, not just
young adults, but regular adultstoo.
(23:12):
There's actually this funnyphrase that we use behind closed
doors as matchmakers.
We say that buyers are liars.
It's termed from real estatewhere people go into a real
estate agent and they say I wantthis style architecture, I want
to buy a house in thisneighborhood, this is my budget,
(23:32):
oh, and it has to have a pool.
And the realtor runs around andshows them everything that fits
exactly what theirspecifications are, and the home
buyer just says no, no, no, no,doesn't feel right.
And then, maybe a little later,the realtor says can I show you
something different?
Can I show you this house thatI think you might like?
(23:54):
It's a different architecture,different budget, different
neighborhood and it doesn't havea pool.
And the buyer walks in and saysit's perfect, I love it.
It's just exactly the same thingin dating, where buyers are
liars.
They come into my office andthey tell me exactly what they
want.
They want a certain height, acertain hair color, a certain
(24:15):
career description or whateverit is, and it's usually
superficial or external markers.
They often say I love to ski,so the person has to ski.
Ultimately, those just aren'tthe things that end up making
them happy in a long-termrelationship.
A matchmaker usually tries todiscern the difference between
(24:39):
what someone says they wantversus what they actually need
to be happy.
I think that's a process thatDavid Brooks was getting at when
he said focus on dating andprioritizing relationships when
you're younger, so you get thatpractice and you learn about
yourself.
Speaker 1 (24:55):
That's so interesting .
I have about a thousandquestions going through my mind,
but I'm going to start with oneand get to the well, the one I
want down the road is thedifference between a matchmaker
and a dating coach, because youseem to be using those
interchangeably.
But first I want to ask this.
I thought of this question whenyou said professional photos
and stuff.
I guess I just feel like andagain maybe I can't wrap my head
around completely how timeshave changed.
(25:17):
I worry I don't want to changemyself too much when I'm meeting
someone.
I want someone to like me forwho I am, not for what I created
through my profile or throughhow.
The dating coach is asking meto not interrupt.
I interrupt all the time.
Whoever's going to marry mebetter be ready for that,
because that's my personality.
(25:37):
How do I give my whole self ofwho I am but still work within
your parameters that you'retalking about?
Does that?
Speaker 2 (25:46):
make any sense.
It totally does, denise.
I'm so glad you asked thatbecause it is something that is
on everyone's mind.
I think the first thing youhave to realize it goes back to
something I said earlier aboutthe skill of dating.
Today is marketing.
But I want to really clarifythis because it's about sequence
(26:07):
.
Because dating has moved online,there is inherently a process
of somebody looking at a photoand deciding whether or not they
want to learn more about you,and so the game then becomes
getting offline and meeting inperson so that two people can
(26:28):
really get to know each other.
If you don't have good photosnot misleading photos I want to
be really clear but just goodphotos.
Photos in outside natural light, photos where you're smiling,
not where you're wearingsunglasses.
Photos where you're wearingclothing that actually is
flattering and not rumpledclothing or baggy clothing where
(26:50):
somebody just doesn't even geta sense of whether you're fit
and healthy or whatever it isthat could be misleading about
the photo.
Some people, by the way, putphotos with their dog covering
their body.
It almost looks like the dog isa human shield.
There are just all sorts ofpsychology reasons why photos
(27:10):
aren't working for them, just toget in person.
It's not about pretending to besomebody you're not or putting
up misleading photos.
It's just trying to get thatfirst meeting In the job world.
If you were looking for a job,you put together a resume that
is your best foot forward.
(27:31):
It's talking about youraccomplishments and trying to
show off the best version ofyourself just to get the
interview.
And then, once you're in theinterview, then it becomes a
question of mutual fit.
So the sequence here is reallyimportant.
Of course no one should changeto catch a husband or catch a
(27:51):
wife.
The nuance of dating adviceisn't about trickery.
It's about making a great firstimpression so the other person
sees you at their best and seesthe traditionally desirable
parts first, so that theydevelop an attraction and an
emotion for you, so that thenthey can slowly start to see the
(28:14):
whole person that you are andevaluate the whole package.
So maybe I can give you anexample you mentioned you
interrupt all the time, but yourhusband loves you, I assume,
and so he takes the interruptionwith all the other good parts.
I'm really bossy, for example,but my husband still loves me,
so he deals with it.
(28:35):
But if I acted really bossy inour first date I don't know that
he would have had the patienceto get to know all of me so that
he could then take the goodwith the bad.
If that makes any sense, thatmakes a lot more sense.
Yeah, you want to be flexibleenough to say this part is
(29:01):
something that I'm going to haveto live with, or we have
developed good communicationskills so we can talk about
something that is bothering me.
Those are skills and behaviorsand a maturity that comes
through deepening a relationship.
That comes through deepening arelationship and it's not going
(29:24):
to be visible in the superficialdimension that is an online
dating profile on a dating app.
So, again, the game is justabout getting the first date
where someone can get to knowyou better.
Speaker 1 (29:37):
So we're going to take a quick break because many
of you know, I went to thispodcast conference in Denver a
few weeks ago and I met so manypeople with so many great
podcasts.
I've shared a few of them and Iwant to share one more.
That's so much fun, especiallyfor Valentine's day.
It's called Behind the Swipeand it's a podcast that takes
you inside the world of onlinedating in the second half of
(30:01):
life.
A lot of us always wonder youknow, if something happened to
our spouse or if we got divorced, would we date again?
It features real, unfilteredstories and perspectives from
men and women in their 40s, 50sand beyond as they navigate the
often confusing and sometimesthrilling experience of dating
(30:22):
with a swipe.
It sounds so scary to me.
Each week, hoyt the host and anexpert guest host explore
topics ranging fromlong-distance relationships,
profile fails to sex after 60,all through the lens of men and
women who have taken the plungeand are seeking partners online,
(30:43):
especially with this wholegolden bachelor thing or silver
bachelor, whatever it's called.
This is quite an interestinglook into dating later in life
behind the swipe.
I hope you'll listen In theworld of Tinder.
Speaker 3 (30:58):
Have you seen that changing how people date?
Because it doesn't seem to methat Tinder is a dating site
necessarily more of the hookupreputation and especially for
younger people.
But it's been around a longtime.
Speaker 2 (31:14):
I know a lot of people who meet on Tinder as
well as every other dating applike Hinge or Bumble.
It's just this entity out there, whether it's Tinder or another
(31:36):
app.
All dating apps or dating siteshave losers, jerks, weirdos and
creeps, but they also havewonderful human beings who would
make a great husband or wife.
These are mass mediums.
There's just so much volumethat you either have to invest
the time to do it yourself andstart swiping and texting and
(32:01):
then going on a lot of firstdates to weed through the ones
who are bad to find the ones whoare good, or you can have a
dating coach do that on yourbehalf.
Denise, you asked earlier aboutthe difference between a
matchmaker and a dating coach,actually a third category, which
is an online dating concierge.
(32:23):
So I can tell you the differencebetween all three.
Okay, go for it.
So an online dating conciergeis someone that logs into your
dating profile for you andswipes and messages on your
behalf, almost impersonating youand this is a very popular and
(32:46):
common thing now, and their jobis to try to get you as fast as
possible to a phone call orvideo date or in-person coffee
date.
They just try to take away thattop filter that is so time
consuming and annoying.
It's just full of superficialchatter, the swiping and then
(33:08):
the initial conversation likewhere are you from and what do
you do?
Your online dating concierge isanswering all those annoying
first demographic data questionsthat are really superficial and
then trying to convert it, ifthe guy or the girl sounds good,
into a phone call for you.
That's an online datingconcierge.
(33:30):
They also write your profilefor you.
They help you get good photos,but it's all focused on making
the dating app process lesspainful.
Then a dating coach is someonewho is giving you advice,
similar to, I don't know, like apersonal trainer at a gym.
You're doing the work of dating, but they're on the sidelines
(33:52):
telling you.
Here are some ways that you cando something different that
might have a different outcome,or I've noticed you tend to do
this.
Maybe if you tried it anotherway, it might work better.
Also, just being anaccountability partner and a
cheerleader in the process,because it really is a process
(34:12):
and it can get very discouraging.
A dating coach is really advicegiving and being an objective
partner in your dating journey.
And then, finally, a matchmakerdoes a lot of the work of a
dating coach but also adds inone-on-one introductions.
So a matchmaker has a privateRolodex of people that they know
(34:37):
or who have they've met, andjoined their Rolodex through
their website.
I mentioned earlier that thereare almost 6,000 matchmakers now
in the US.
Many of us are part of internalprivate groups, either on
Facebook or WhatsApp, and wehave access to each other's
clients and resources.
(34:58):
So we collaborate all the timewith each other and we do a lot
of things.
We reach out to our privatealumni networks from our
colleges or our grad schools.
We hire recruiters to go toevents or experiences and try to
look for single people thatmight be appropriate fits for
(35:19):
our clients.
Whether it's going to asynagogue event or a TEDx
conference or I don't know afundraiser for a good cause.
We hire recruiters to go outand look for matches that fit
what we're looking for for ourclient.
So there are a lot of ways thatwe find people and we then
(35:43):
think about what our clientreally needs to be happy and try
to make vetted and high qualityintroductions, one-on-one, to
set them up on a date.
Speaker 1 (35:54):
What's the median?
Speaker 2 (35:55):
age.
I don't know about the medianage, because the range is
probably anywhere from 23 to 80.
Oh my gosh.
But I'll tell you.
What's really interesting isthat the biggest growth segment
in my business and many of mycolleagues is the surge of
parents hiring dating coachesand matchmakers for their young
(36:19):
adults, hiring dating coachesand matchmakers for their young
adults.
And this is when I say youngadults, I mean early twenties to
early forties.
I had a dad recently call meabout his 42 year old daughter,
who he really just genuinelywanted to help, and he said is
there anything I can do in thosecases?
I say look, if I work with youryoung adult child, let me be
(36:41):
clear that your role is just topay the bill.
It can't be involved.
And so the client is your youngadult child.
And so if I'm going to workwith them, I need them to be
interested in this and we canhave an initial conversation,
but then it's likedoctor-patient confidentiality.
My role is to help them and Iwill send you the bill.
Speaker 1 (37:05):
This is making so much more sense to me.
I think about something I'vealways said that the most
important decision our childrenwill make in their lives is who
they select.
As a spouse, especially, youwant it to last.
I love a lot of what you offerand I think parents, whether
they pay for it or suggest it, Ithink it's a great.
Last, I love a lot of what youoffer and I think parents,
(37:25):
whether they pay for it orsuggest it, I think it's a great
idea.
I know the whole social mediaand all that, but I'm most
concerned about kids who areworking remotely.
They graduate college andthey're sitting in their
apartments all day.
I met all of my best friends inmy early work years and
continue to have those friends,so I worry a lot about that.
But what I really want to askis in them selecting their
partners on their own, do youthink that they choose their
(37:48):
romantic partners based on theirfamily environment they were
raised in?
How they grow up influence whothey're looking for?
Do they generally look forsomeone that's like their
parents?
What do you see going on here?
Speaker 2 (38:00):
Yeah, such a good question.
There are a lot of dynamicsthat are at play and I think
from the parent's perspectiveit's not always obvious.
It's usually not obvious whykids choose a particular partner
and what looks like someonewho's similar or opposite of
their mom or dad on the surfaceit's usually not indicative of
(38:21):
what's underneath in theirsubconscious.
Maybe it's something reallysimple and obvious on the
surface, Like I don't know, likemy mom worked full-time while
we were growing up, so I want tofind a woman who's passionate
about her career.
Or my dad had a great sense ofhumor, so I want a guy who makes
me laugh.
Sometimes it can be simple likethat and it's visible on the
(38:44):
surface, but usually it's notthat straightforward.
I don't know if you've heard ofthis well-known therapist and
author named Lori Gottlieb.
Speaker 1 (38:52):
Oh yeah, read her books yeah.
Speaker 2 (38:54):
Yeah, she's great.
She says this line that I'llnever forget, which is that we
marry our unfinished business.
Our young adults might say I'mgoing to subconsciously, by the
way that they might marrysomeone who's the opposite of
whatever hurt they had when theywere growing up.
Unfortunately, we have a radarfor what feels comfortable, what
(39:15):
feels like home.
We go after people who feelcomfortable.
Our subconscious mind might sayoh, you look familiar, come
closer.
Your inner child is saying I'mgoing to pick a partner who
gives me all the things I didn'tget when I was growing up but I
wish I had.
Their conscious mind mightthink this person doesn't look
(39:37):
anything like my parents on thesurface, but then, when they get
into that relationship thatthey're having with their
boyfriend or girlfriend, they'resurprised how familiar it feels
.
This kind of dynamic happens ifthey have a childhood hurt, and
again, it doesn't have to be adeep and serious hurt.
It could be something that isjust perceived as a pain or a
(40:00):
loss when they were growing up.
You may not have ever knownabout it, but if they don't work
out that unfinished business asan adult, either through
therapy or some deepintrospection or maybe even
trial and error in otherrelationships, then that's going
to play out in unhealthydynamics in their choice of a
(40:21):
partner.
I guess my advice to parents isthat if they're perplexed by
the choices that their adultkids are making, they need to
get curious and not judgmentalabout those choices.
When the moment is right, maybeyou could ask your child to
share what they love most abouttheir boyfriend or girlfriend
and really listen and respond byjust saying oh, that's
(40:41):
interesting, tell me more aboutthat, instead of trying to
convey some sort of judgmentlike oh, I don't know why you
think that's important.
That never mattered to me whenI was dating your father.
It's just this game oflistening to try to understand
how childhood dynamics areplaying out as adults.
Speaker 1 (41:00):
I want to piggyback on this question.
Kirsten asked about the hookupculture.
It seems to me that thisgeneration does hook up more
quickly than past generations.
How does that impact finding aspouse?
Do they waste time because thissexual excitement makes them
feel like they found the partnerand they realize when they
really get to know them it's notthe right partner.
(41:21):
How do you advise your clientson that?
Speaker 2 (41:24):
Well, it is a very real dynamic.
It is happening and we asparents are not going to have
much to say about it.
We can pretty much just tellthem to be safe and use
protection and get tested,because you may or may not know
that 50% of all adults over 18have an STD 50%, did you say.
(41:47):
Yes, 50% some kind of STD and itdoesn't mean they're having
symptoms.
It's not that it's always known, but I do always advise people
to get tested before being witha new partner.
I like to focus on the things Ican influence, and young adults
having sex more quickly than weused to when we were their age
(42:09):
is not something I can influence.
I can certainly tell somebodyto spend more time getting to
know a person before jumpinginto bed with them, but I think
what has been really interestingin my business since the
pandemic is that this may soundstrange, because the pandemic
was terrible in a million ways,but it was great for dating.
Speaker 1 (42:33):
Yeah, I've heard that , I know I just well.
Our friend, our mutual friend'sson, met his wife that he
recently married during COVID,and they sat on a park bench six
feet apart from each other forseveral months and talked.
Speaker 2 (42:47):
And that's a direct outcome of this hookup culture.
During the pandemic, you got toknow someone better, either
virtually or six feet apartbefore you took off your mask.
It helped young adults focus ondeeper and more important
qualities that predict long-termhappiness, without a lot of
other distraction.
(43:08):
I think those behaviors havemaybe lingered.
I don't know for sure.
I don't have any statistics,but I think that the video
dating component of meetingsomebody has grown out of the
pandemic.
When you have a FaceTime dateor a Zoom date before meeting in
(43:29):
person, which became reallynormal during COVID, you do get
to know somebody better beforeyou have a physical interaction
with them.
I do think that was one goodoutcome.
Also, by the way, the pandemicreally helped people prioritize
dating.
The loneliness and isolationthat came from quarantining
(43:50):
really lit a fire under singlesto realize that finding a
long-term partner and findinglove is maybe more important
than their jobs.
Speaker 3 (44:01):
That's a really interesting shift, I think.
I mean it's certainly apositive, I guess, of the
pandemic, if there can be one.
Speaker 1 (44:09):
Absolutely.
I want to get to the point thatthe role the family plays.
When someone has met thesignificant other or let's say,
your kid brings home someone andthey've been dating a while,
they're finally ready tointroduce them to the family the
family's going to be reallyimportant how they react to that
person, how they welcome thatperson.
We have a group text with ourwhole family.
(44:30):
How soon do you include thatperson in the group text?
Do you wait till they'reengaged, when they're married,
or never?
Or you know the family caneither make it or break it
possibly.
So how do you deal with that?
Or do you deal with the familyat all?
Speaker 2 (44:45):
Of course, the family is a big presence in a lot of
ways, both a literal presenceand an emotional presence.
I think there are a lot ofissues here.
First of all, there's the issueof whether or not the parents
approve of the partner andwhether or not they should say
anything.
Speaker 1 (45:03):
I was going to ask that Go ahead.
Speaker 2 (45:04):
It's really tough because as parents we're used to
giving our kids advice, havingthem listen and helping them
make decisions when they'reyounger, to know that we can't
tell them who to love, as muchas we wish we could choose their
partner and make that partnersomebody that we're excited
(45:26):
about as an entire family.
That's going to fit right intoour family culture.
I don't think we really havethat right anymore.
I think you have to understandthat there's probably a window
of time when you can indicatesome kind of concern about your
child's choice in a boyfriend orgirlfriend, and that window of
(45:48):
time is early on in theirrelationship.
If you bite your tongue for ayear or two while they're dating
somebody and then it getsserious and suddenly you express
your disapproval after they'vefallen in love or they're about
to get engaged, you're risking alifetime of alienation from
your child.
Frankly, at that point theirallegiance is going to be to
(46:09):
their partner and they're goingto tell their partner everything
you said about them.
And that partner will neverforget it.
That partner will be married toyour child for 20 or 30 years
and they will always rememberthat you weren't on their side
or you had a concern.
So, practically speaking, ifthere is a concern, you need to
(46:30):
bring it up sooner than later,and I wouldn't really convey
disapproval, but you have to doit in terms of asking questions.
Yeah, and so you also have todiscern between what's important
to you but maybe not to yourchild, because they have their
own tastes and values andemotional needs.
(46:52):
You can ask them validquestions, but not questions
about like that reflect your ownpreferences.
For example, I don't know ifyou have a concern that their
boyfriend or girlfriend hasanger issues or they have
fundamental different valuesabout honesty or integrity or
(47:14):
loyalty, then formulate somequestions with a third party.
Don't go directly to your childwith your knee-jerk questions.
Pause and try to find a neutralthird party, like a wise family
friend, or maybe if you'reseeing a therapist and say
here's my concern, can you helpme formulate the right questions
(47:37):
for my child that aren't ladenwith disapproval or judgment?
I guess that's like the firststep and I don't know.
I think that you have to reallyask this question or this
prompt tell me more.
Because you're trying touncover what they really get
(48:02):
emotionally from a partner thatyou may not see or understand.
But if you bring up the topicof their partner and ask
questions like I'm so curious,you know what's one of your
favorite things about thisperson you just start using this
phrase tell me more, tell memore.
You're going to get to thething behind the thing behind
(48:24):
the thing.
Ultimately, the headline ofwhat they initially tell you is
never really going to be what'sgoing on underneath.
If you can go deeper in theseconversations and understand
something that may be happeningbehind closed doors that you
don't see, you never understoodabout what your child needs you
(48:45):
may actually come to love andappreciate their partner more
than ever.
Speaker 1 (48:50):
I absolutely agree with that.
Speaker 3 (48:52):
And it's very interesting.
I was just thinking.
You know most of our audienceare probably 50 plus.
Does your advice change forthis age group?
Speaker 2 (49:04):
Not at all.
You know it's funny, it's it'sreally timeless.
I mean for older singles or youknow, I guess 50 plus I don't
even like to call that older,but you know online dating is
essential at any age, even ifyou don't like it and nobody
does.
By the way, there's 50 millionpeople dating online and there's
not one single person who likesit.
It's a means to an end.
(49:24):
You can use an online datingconcierge, but you need
professional photos and it worksif you do it right.
So, just like for our kids,dating is a skill.
You can't get stuck in thenotion that it's going to be as
easy as it was in your 20s andit'll just happen when it's
(49:45):
right.
You should be proactive andit'll just happen when it's
right.
You should be proactive andwhether it's hiring a matchmaker
or dating coach, if you canafford it or there's so many
free resources or inexpensiveresources like reading books or
listening to podcasts or justeven asking your friends for
feedback about things like yourwardrobe or your hairstyle or
(50:06):
your conversation skills but youneed an objective opinion
before you go out into thedating world, because if you
invest the time upfront to dodating right, especially later
in life, it's just going tohappen so much faster.
I guess the only other thingthat comes to mind about older
singles is that they often havean excuse for why they're going
(50:32):
to do it later.
They're going to put off datingwhen they lose 10 pounds, or
when their kids go to college orwhen they're not so busy with
this project.
I just want to say to them thatlife is short and there is
absolutely someone out there foryou at any age, any city, any
(50:52):
body type, any religion.
It's just.
The wonderful world of onlinedating is that it gives you so
much more access to people thatyou would never have met if you
were back on a college campus orback in a work environment
(51:13):
where the number of people inyour circles was just so much
smaller.
The world is big and there's alot of amazing people out there,
but you have to learn the skillof doing it right.
Speaker 1 (51:24):
Very interesting.
I have to ask you about yourfee schedule.
How does it work?
How much do people pay, or doyou have a range?
What would our listeners needto know if they wanted someone
like you to work with theirfamily or their adult child?
Speaker 2 (51:37):
Well, most matchmakers and dating coaches
don't have fees that are like aone size fits all.
It's not like a set pricebecause it's a function of how
much time I would spend helpingsomeone.
It's not like a set pricebecause it's a function of how
much time I would spend helpingsomeone.
It's more like being anexecutive recruiter.
Some searches are faster andeasier than others.
Sometimes all a person needs,honestly, is like a one hour
(51:59):
coaching session to tell themthe key things to do and then,
if they're smart and proactive,they might be able to take it
from there.
They might not even need me orsomebody on an ongoing basis.
So fees you asked about thestructure.
They're usually structuredeither hourly for coaching or
sometimes like monthly coachingpackages, and then matchmaking
(52:22):
fees are typically a monthlyretainer with like a three-month
minimum, and then there'susually a success fee attached.
Success is always definedindividually.
It doesn't always mean marriage.
Often it means marriage, butsometimes it just means having a
committed relationship for ayear, or it could mean something
intangible like, I don't know,feeling energized or
(52:45):
self-confident about yourselfand just getting experience with
dating If you don't have a lotof experience in the past.
I always co-create the meaningof success with each client.
It's really expensive to hire amatchmaker or a dating coach.
It's a very bespoke conciergeservice but you don't have to
(53:07):
pay a lot of money for advice.
You know there's a lot of greatresources out there for your
young adult kids.
You could gift them books.
Do you want to hear some of myfavorite books?
Speaker 1 (53:18):
Sure, sure, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (53:20):
Go ahead, you've been so great.
Speaker 1 (53:22):
I've loved every minute of it.
Go ahead.
Speaker 2 (53:24):
There are.
Some of my favorite datingbooks are Attached by Amir
Levine.
I also like how to Not DieAlone by Logan Urie oh, I've
heard of that one, okay.
And Lori Gottlieb's book MarryHim is really good.
There's a lot of great datingpodcasts out there.
Those are all free.
There's one called let's TalkLove.
(53:45):
There's another one I likecalled Dear Matchmaker, another
one called the Asian DatingPodcast.
There's one called the Yentasthere are just so many and
there's also inexpensive onlinedating boot camps that are out
there.
So, instead of a one-on-oneservice with a private
matchmaker or dating concierge,there are these really
(54:08):
inexpensive online resourcesLike.
There's an online course calledSmart Dating Bootcamp by
Michelle Jacoby, which isexcellent.
There's another online datingclass called Propel with Logan
Urie, so you can just Google it.
Speaker 1 (54:26):
And I'll put links.
We'll put links to all of thatin our episode notes.
How different is it for youngpeople who come from a family
where their parents had adifficult marriage, whether it
be divorce or whether it was nota happy home to be in?
How is that for them lookingfor a spouse?
I mean I've heard some say Inever want to get married.
(54:47):
I haven't seen an example of ahappy marriage.
How is that for them lookingfor a spouse?
I mean I've heard some say Inever want to get married.
Speaker 2 (54:52):
I haven't seen an example of a happy marriage.
How is that for them?
Oh, it's such a powerfulquestion because I think there's
an assumption out there thatchildren who come from divorced
families might have a hardertime making a commitment and
finding the right partnerbecause they grew up in an
environment where they knew thatmarriage may be temporary or
(55:15):
that there was a lot of frictionbetween two parents that caused
unhappiness or whatever.
There are a million ways thatit's impacted them.
But I'll tell you somethingcounterintuitive I have actually
seen that it is the youngadults whose parents were
happily married for 25 or 50years that have the harder time
(55:38):
finding the right spouse.
And let me explain why becausethey feel sort of almost a
unrealistic belief that marriageis perfect and that what they
saw as a child is that myparents didn't fight, my parents
were always happy, my mom isperfect, my dad is perfect, had
(56:03):
such a happy marriage ultimatelymay not have shown some of the
not so great parts in front oftheir children, who then get
into real relationships as youngadults that could be very good
and strong and lovingrelationships, but not perfect.
No one's relationship isperfect, and so when they hit a
(56:24):
speed bump in that relationship,they automatically think that
that's not going to be the rightperson for them because it
doesn't mirror their illusion ofwhat they grew up thinking
about their parents' marriage,whereas young adults who grew up
in a divorced home they mayoften have trust issues or a lot
(56:47):
of doubts about certain thingsand fears about marriage.
But they also probably have seenthat even if a divorce happens,
even if they pick a partnerthat doesn't end up working out
in the long run, they've seen,hopefully, that their mom and
their dad went on to still behappy that they got divorced.
They went on to meet somebodyelse and hopefully they were
(57:11):
happier and it wasn't the end ofthe world.
And even if you're a youngadult whose parents got divorced
and is maybe still single orisn't super happy after that
divorce, they still have a greatlife probably.
And just knowing that divorceisn't the end of the world
(57:32):
actually helps them choosepartners that know how to have
healthy and productive conflictand partners that aren't perfect
but make them happy.
And those choices are oftenstronger than the inaction that
I see a lot of kids make becausethey can't commit to something
(57:53):
that's not perfect.
Speaker 3 (57:55):
Wow, that's powerful.
Speaker 1 (57:57):
Very powerful.
Kirsten, I've talked a lot.
You asked for the takeaways.
Speaker 3 (58:02):
Okay, absolutely Before we say goodbye and this
has really been amazing.
You've answered a ton of ourquestions and helped explain
some of what we're certainlyseeing with our kids and their
dating habits or not datinghabits, depending on the day.
I always like to ask for two tothree takeaways that you want
our listeners to really thinkabout and remember.
(58:24):
Can you share those with us?
Speaker 2 (58:25):
Sure, it's hard to just boil it down to two or
three, but I guess thefundamental takeaway I would
want parents to understand andto convey to their young adult
kids is simply that dating is alearned skill, like learning a
foreign language, and it'ssomething your adult child can
(58:46):
get better at.
It's not a fixed situation,because dating is more
complicated today with onlinedating apps and everything else
that we've talked about.
It's just really important forparents to offer help in any way
that makes sense for them,whether it's just listening and
having open conversations,whether it's helping them
(59:08):
financially with some datingresources.
It's very normal and, I think,very positive today, of course,
you have to let your adult childchoose their own partner.
You can't tell them who to love, but you can support them in so
many ways by initiating openconversation ways.
(59:32):
By initiating open conversation.
Remember that phrase Imentioned tell me more, and just
keep saying it.
Tell me more, tell me moreuntil they tell you the thing
behind the thing behind thething, what's really going on,
and understanding that, as aparent, is ultimately going to
direct you toward the best wayyou can help them.
Speaker 1 (59:50):
That was wonderful, Rachel.
Thank you so much.
This certainly changed my mindabout matchmaking and dating
resources.
I've learned so much about thedating world that I had no idea.
Speaker 2 (01:00:01):
I'm so glad I got a chance to talk to you.
I am such a big fan of the Biteyour Tongue podcast.
I've been telling all myfriends that they have to listen
to this, so it was really anhonor to have this conversation
with both of you today.
Speaker 3 (01:00:15):
Thank you, rachel.
This was really really special.
I appreciate it.
There are some things I'm goingto be sharing with my children.
Speaker 1 (01:00:21):
Ditto, ditto, ditto.
Thanks a lot, so that's a wrap.
I hope all of you enjoyeddipping into this world of
dating and our young adultchildren as much as I did.
I think I didn't realize howlittle I understood about this
new world of dating, and I hopeyou will listen to the podcast
(01:00:41):
we mentioned during the episodethat was about dating at our age
, behind the Swipe.
I think you'll find itinteresting and fun.
Kirsten, what was your takeawaytoday?
It was quite an episode.
Speaker 3 (01:00:53):
Wow, it was great.
I think the most importantthing I heard for me is just
this really is a skillset, andis there a way we can teach our
kids what those skills are atsome point before they are
adults?
Speaker 1 (01:01:07):
And I guess her what was her phrase?
She always wanted to say tellme more, tell me more.
I took that away as well.
Thanks again to all ourlisteners.
Remember to support our work.
By going to our website andclicking the support us tab.
You'll find a way to buy us avirtual cup of coffee.
It's just five bucks.
Also, follow us on social media.
Send us your ideas andquestions to
(01:01:28):
biteyourtonguepodcastcom.
Speaker 3 (01:01:31):
And thank you again to Connie Gordon Fisher, our
audio engineer.
Speaker 2 (01:01:41):
Have a great Valentine's Day everybody, but
remember, sometimes you justhave to bite your tongue.
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