August 9, 2024 • 51 mins
Ever felt the sting of disappointment when your adult children don't quite live up to your dreams for them? Join us in a special rewind episode where we sit down with the insightful Jane Adams, PhD, author of "When Our Grown Kids Disappoint Us." Jane unpacks the emotional rollercoaster that many parents experience, offering her personal story and expert advice for letting go and allowing children to grow into their unique identities. Her years as a social psychologist and parent coach shine through, providing listeners with practical strategies to foster authentic and loving relationships with their adult kids.
We also tackle the heavy burden of parental guilt, especially in extreme situations like incarceration or drug addiction. We delve into the difference between guilt and regret, encouraging parents to support their children healthily without being consumed by unwarranted guilt. Setting boundaries and providing structured support are key themes as we also touch on the complexities of financial support and sibling rivalry. We wrap up by engaging our listeners for feedback and suggestions, stressing the importance of open communication within families. Tune in for a comforting and enlightening episode that promises to reshape your perspective on parenting adult children.
Huge thank you to Connie Gorant Fisher, our audio engineer.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hey everyone, this is Denise.
Before we start today's episode, I just want you to know for
the next few episodes we'regoing to do some episode rewinds
, meaning playing episodes thatwe've done earlier that we think
are really terrific and deservea second listen.
The first one is with JaneAdams, who's a PhD and author of
the book when Our Growing KidsDisappoint Us, letting go of
(00:23):
their problems, loving themanyway and getting of the book.
When Our Growing KidsDisappoint Us, letting Go of
their Problems, loving themAnyway and Getting On With Our
Lives.
Give them a chance to grow up.
Jane says, before you makejudgments and you know, we all
know our dreams for our childrenbegin as soon as they're placed
in our arms.
How can we let go and let thembe who they are as they grow up?
(00:45):
I hope you enjoy this episode.
Let's get going.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
Well, some of it is a bit of narcissism.
You know we still think of ourchildren as belonging to us, as
an extension of us.
You know, when they're notfirst in their class graduating
from Harvard, or they don't havethe great job with whomever,
it's like we've suffered anarcissistic injury.
But in most cases it's not thatas much as the fact that, you
(01:11):
know, we haven't been able tolet our dreams for them go.
And the dreams begin the momentthe doctor puts them in our
arms.
It starts so early.
I mean, give your kids a chanceto grow up before you make a
judgment about who they are.
Speaker 1 (01:38):
Welcome to the Bite your Tongue podcast.
I'm Denise and I'm joined by mygood friend, dr Ellen Broughton
.
We've been through many yearsof parenting together and now
we're ready to talk about theins and outs of parenting adult
children.
Your diapering days are over.
Now it's time to consider whento bite your tongue.
So let's get started.
Hello everyone, it's abeautiful fall morning in Denver
(02:05):
and I'm so happy to welcome allof you to another episode of
Bite your Tongue.
Today we're talking aboutdisappointment in our adult
children.
What happens when you've givenit your all, you've raised your
kids and now you find yourself abit disappointed in things like
the lifestyle they've chosen,the partner they've chosen, or
(02:27):
something worse?
Today we're welcoming JaneAdams, phd.
Jane is the author of the bookwhen Our Grown Kids Disappoint
Us Letting Go of their Problems,loving them Anyways and Getting
On With Our Lives.
This is a tough and we'rethrilled that Jane has agreed to
speak with us.
She's also a parent coach, soactually she's the coach the
(02:51):
parenting coach for all of ourlisteners, listeners of adult
children.
Her website says being a parentdoesn't end.
It lasts as long as you do.
She is a social psychologistwho studies how we handle our
kids' transitions from youth toadulthood on time, late, or
(03:12):
maybe they just haven't evengotten there.
She's been interviewing,researching and coaching parents
who want their grown kids to behappy and successful in life,
but also want a mutual, lovingand authentic relationship with
them even more.
You know, ellen.
(03:35):
When we had our babies wethought you know we'd raise them
and that would be it.
But parenting never seems toend.
What do you think?
Speaker 3 (03:43):
Oh, that is so true.
And when we had those babies wethought there was nothing they
could ever do that woulddisappoint us.
Nothing we couldn't evenimagine there were things that
would happen that would make usanxious, other than maybe ear
infections.
We couldn't imagine there wereways that they could really make
us very unhappy and veryworried that lasted until they
(04:06):
were two right.
Speaker 1 (04:10):
Maybe more, maybe more.
Speaker 3 (04:14):
So welcome, jane, and I would love for you to tell us
a little bit more aboutyourself and why you decided to
study this time in parenting,since we are all in desperate
need of it at one time oranother.
Speaker 2 (04:26):
Well, because I was in desperate need of it too.
My kids are now grown and flown, and on their own, and a
delight to me.
But it took a lot of yearsafter they were grown and flown
before we got to that point.
I'm a life stage psychologist.
I'm always interested in thepsychosocial aspects of each
(04:51):
stage of our life and I've alsofound that if I don't know what
I'm doing, the best thing to dois to get paid to go out and
find out.
And so I've written books aboutmost stages of parenting,
beginning when they were eightor nine, with a book called Sex
and the Single Parent, because Iwas a single parent and I
(05:14):
didn't know how to be a sexualperson after all those years and
not screw up my kids' futureforever.
So I went out and I talked tothe experts and I talked to a
lot of people who were dealingwith it and figured it out and
wrote that book.
And since then, at every kindof key stage of my life where
I've had an issue, I've beenlucky enough to find a publisher
(05:36):
who thought other people wouldbe going through that too.
And when I came up with the bookwe're talking about today, when
Our Grown Kids Disappoint Us.
It was really the follow-up toa book I had written some years
before called I'm Still yourMother, when my kids were very
young adults they were incollege and what I heard from
(05:59):
people whenever I spoke andwrote or did a lecture about
that subject, people wouldalways line up afterward and say
can I talk to you privately?
And they always wanted to talkabout their kids who were
problems.
I had one kid who was gettingto be a problem at that point
and she was 25.
And I decided to do the samething I'd always done go out and
(06:23):
find out how other people dealtwith it, talk to the experts
and write about it, although bythis time I had gotten a PhD in
social psychology and I was theexpert.
So it helped, but not as muchas common sense helped.
Speaker 1 (06:43):
You know this might give some hope to some of our
listeners because you saidsomething in that introduction
of yourself that your kids noware grown and flown and on their
own, but it took some time.
What do you think, thoseemerging stages, those ages in
those emerging years that causethe most anxiety for parents,
and are we rushing our kids tobecome adults, or what's changed
(07:06):
that we get so anxious?
Speaker 2 (07:08):
I think we start, unless they have significant
issues addiction, dependence,depression when they're in
college.
We start getting worried when,after they're finished with
school, they don't seem to begetting a grip, they don't seem
to be launching, and we begin toworry about whether grip they
don't seem to be launching andwe begin to worry about whether
(07:30):
they'll be latched on to usforever, whether they'll ever be
independent.
And that's one of the thingsthat troubles a lot of parents
whose kids say they'reindependent and think they're
independent, and the parents arestill, you know, they're still
on our phone plan.
We're still the first resortrather than the last one when
they need money or bailing outof some problem.
And so the overwhelming feelingthat many of these parents have
(07:54):
is something we don't like toadmit, which is that we're
disappointed in our kids andwe're disappointed in how they
turned out if they're not doingeverything on schedule without
any major problems.
And we feel guilty about beingdisappointed because this isn't
supposed to be about us.
It's supposed to be about them,but our feelings range from
(08:18):
anger to frustration, to worry,to, ultimately, disappointment.
I went out to talk to peoplewhose kids had not turned out
quite as well as they'd expected.
I was one of them at that pointbecause my 26-year-old married,
happy daughter had developed adrug problem, and most of us
also, when our kids get to be 21or 22, are in no position to
(08:43):
impose our will on them.
If they really needhospitalization for something we
can't do, that we have aboutthe same influence as
ex-presidents.
The book is really more aboutcoming to terms with who your
kids are, loving them anyway,learning whose problems there
(09:05):
are, letting go of the problemsthat are not ours and very few
of the problems they have asadults are ours.
In fact, I can't think of anyunless they're really physically
disabled and we need to takecare of them any problems that
are ours and getting on with ourown lives.
And we get stuck in this cycleof anger, disappointment,
(09:27):
unhappiness, worry, and it keepsus from getting on with our own
lives because there's still somuch a part of it and because
our relationship with them isnot mutual or interdependent,
but they're dependent and we'rethe ones they depend on and
we're also not feeling greatabout it.
Speaker 3 (09:47):
Let me start by asking you about one of the
easiest things from that listthat you just gave us, about why
this is so hard?
And I think the easiest one butmaybe this isn't, maybe this is
just me the easiest one is toget on with our own lives.
Do you think that's true?
Speaker 2 (10:04):
Oh, it's absolutely true, because A there's very
little we can do for them rightnow.
We can immerse ourselves intheir problems, but we can't
solve their problems.
I remember when I went to adrug program with my daughter
and she said Mom, stay out of myprogram.
Well, she was doing well bythen and I learned I stayed out
(10:26):
of her program.
I didn't ask her about what shewas doing.
We didn't talk about it.
There's so little that we cando except to be there to pick
them up when they fall and standthem back on their own two feet
rather than cradling them inour arms for the rest of their
lives.
So it's essential that we learnto let go of their problems and
(10:49):
get on with their own lives andput our energy there and our
resources.
You know, so many of us havespent so much of the money we
counted on living on inretirement for our grown kids
for bailing them out of troublenot just bailing them out of
financial trouble, but bailingthem out of all kinds of things
that cost money.
Speaker 1 (11:09):
You know, ellen, I'm going to sort of differ with you
.
I think that whole step ofgetting on with your own life
can be very difficult.
And one of the things youaddressed in your book, jane, is
there are some parents thathave nothing more, like they've
put everything into theirparenting and they can't seem to
let go.
So I think it's very difficultif your child is in drug rehab
(11:30):
and your daughter says get outof my program.
Mom, I applaud you for then notfollowing up with questions.
You know, three weeks later,how are you doing?
How are you doing?
And I think somewhere in yourbook you said something about we
can't separate.
I mean you need to, but it's areally hard job to separate them
from us.
It's important, but how does aparent do that if they can't
(11:52):
make that step?
Speaker 2 (11:53):
Well, I think we find ways to stay in touch with them
that don't deal with theirproblem.
When my daughter was at theheight of her problem, it was
difficult, but occasionally wewent to a movie, we went out for
dinner and I didn't sayanything, because being with her
and letting her know I lovedher, even though I couldn't help
(12:14):
her, was important to both ofus.
I wasn't letting go of her, Iwas just letting go of her
problem.
Speaker 3 (12:21):
But I think part of it also is that so many parents
don't have a life outside theirown children.
They don't have an identity.
Their identity is I am a mother.
That's true, I am a father andso they need to find their own
identity, and I do find thatit's helpful for adult children
(12:42):
and children of all ages reallyto have parents who have an
identity.
Speaker 2 (12:46):
It's very important, but it isn't.
You know, it was never ourkids' role, once they left home,
to provide us with an alternateidentity or another role.
That's our problem.
That's our role is to findanother one.
And the other thing that manyparents don't know when their
kids are in their 20s is thatonce they are finally ultimately
(13:08):
fully engaged in their adultlives, when they have a career
rather than a job, when theyhave a family rather than an
assortment of come and go lovers, they don't want to be in our
lives.
They don't want to spend thatmuch time with us.
They've got really busy livesof their own, regardless of
whether they have problems.
Speaker 1 (13:27):
Right and when we look back to our own lives, we
were just like that and I thinkwhat you said, Alan, is exactly
right.
But there's a lot of parentsthat gave 150% to raising their
children.
The children leave and theyhave no idea how to pick up.
And that might just be a wholenother episode, because I think
I remember when I had mydaughter and all of my attention
(13:49):
192% was on her and I think itwas damaging.
When I had my son, I thoughtthe best gift I gave her was
having my son, because then sheonly got 50% or 70%.
And you know, I feel likethat's the exact same thing.
When they become young adults,the best gift we can give them
is for us to have richindividual lives.
(14:11):
That's true.
Speaker 2 (14:13):
One of the things we find out when our kids leave
home, when we have devoted allof our time and attention to
them, is that we have nothing tosay to our spouses if they're
still with us.
And not only have we beentotally wrapped up in our mother
role, but we've also begun tosee them only as a partner in
parenting, not as friend, lover,spout, not as those other
(14:37):
things.
And they've begun to see usonly as a mother, not a lover, a
partner, a friend.
We've talked around them, we'vetalked over them, but we
haven't talked to each otherdirectly.
I've found that for many of theclients that I deal with, the
idea that they only see theother person as a partner in
(15:00):
child rearing is a big surpriseto them, and some of them you
know one of them did a marriageenrichment weekend, which she
said was better than theirhoneymoon.
They had really beginning todiscover each other again.
Some couples look at each otherand say you know well, we've
done that and there's reallynothing else holding us together
and separate them.
(15:21):
It's a really critical time.
Speaker 1 (15:22):
It's a very critical time.
You see a lot of divorceshappening around that time.
Speaker 2 (15:26):
Well, and you see just as many happening in a
child's first year of college,which is, for your child's sake,
the most dangerous time todivorce.
Speaker 1 (15:35):
Why do you say that Well?
Speaker 2 (15:36):
because many of them think that if they come home
from college they can make mommyand daddy together again, or
that their parents will beunable the parent who's
remaining the mother usuallywill be unable to manage without
them.
It's a major reason that kidsdrop out of college in their
first semester.
(15:57):
The living arrangements and themarital arrangements until the
end of their first year ofcollege.
You're going to do less damageto them In fact you probably
won't do any, because they willbe in their own lives now that
makes sense Makes sense On theother hand too.
Speaker 3 (16:16):
I think that that time of transition can also be
the other way, very hard onmarriages, to the point where a
lot of marriages don't survivethrough the 20s and the college
years, when the child can'treally make it.
Sometimes it brings themtogether, but it also is a hard
time for couples to manage.
Speaker 2 (16:38):
One of the interesting things to me I found
when I talked to parents abouttheir kids coming back home.
It's usually the mother thatdoesn't want them back home.
She's done her child.
This is assuming their kiddoesn't have many problems
except no job or dropping out ofcollege.
And the mother says, you know,I've been there, done that.
(16:58):
It's the father who says, oh,now that they're old enough to
be decent company, let them comehome.
You know, why should she payfor an apartment when we've got
a perfectly nice room here?
And it's the fathers, much morethan the mothers, who want
their kids back when theyboomerang back home.
Speaker 1 (17:15):
Well, I'm going to say something very sexist here.
It could be because the mom didmost of the housekeeping and
all of that while they weregrowing up and the dad thinks,
oh, they're home.
That doesn't mean more food,more cooking, more laundry.
It just means I get to enjoythem where the mother's thinking
, oh my gosh.
Speaker 2 (17:30):
No, it's actually.
It's a very gender-relatedissue.
It's not sexist, it's just.
That's the difference betweenfathers and mothers.
You know, and many of thefathers, by the time their kids
are in their twenties, many ofthe fathers are close to
retirement, they've got lots oftime on their hands and their
wives are busy either taking upa career they put away or
starting something new.
(17:50):
You know, they've invested intheir lives as adults without
children, as adults who are notcaretakers and they don't want
to be waiting up until you know,to hear the car come in or
picking up after their.
You know they don't want to dothose things anymore.
They've done them.
Speaker 1 (18:07):
So I want to talk a little bit about this whole idea
of disappointment, because yousay something in your book about
where your expectationsoverblown Are.
You, you know?
Is it narcissism?
Is it our problem or theirproblem?
You know you can have a reallytough situation your child's in
jail, your child's having drugissues, but your child didn't go
(18:27):
to medical school like youexpected or law school like you
expected and you're harboringdisappointment.
Where does disappointment lieand why do some parents feel
very disappointed, even when thechild might be living a pretty
happy life?
Speaker 2 (18:40):
Well, some of it is a bit of narcissism.
You know we still think of ourchildren as belonging to us, as
an extension of us.
You know, when they're notfirst in their class graduating
from Harvard, or they don't havethe great job with whomever,
it's like we've suffered anarcissistic injury, but in most
cases it's not that as much asthe fact that, you know, we
(19:02):
haven't been able to let ourdreams for them go.
And the dreams begin the momentthe doctor puts them in our
arms.
So true, you know, we thinkabout names in terms of how
they'll look on a politicalposter or, in my case, a book
jacket.
You know it starts so early.
We may raise a child who isn'tthe least bit interested in math
(19:24):
and science but is a greatreader and writer, and we can't
let go of our dreams that hebecome a doctor or she become a
doc, and maybe they've got a jobat Target while they're writing
a book in their spare time andwe still are thinking that
they're not fulfilling theirpotential.
Well, they are, but it's theirdreams and they may have a
(19:47):
different dream for themselves.
One of the hard things to do isto separate your dreams for
your child with his or herdreams for themselves.
Sometimes it's nice to ask youknow, where do you see yourself
in five years or in 10 years?
If you could design the perfectlife, what would it look like?
And you need to ask thosequestions in order to say, okay,
(20:08):
I guess I better put that dreamaway.
But our expectation iscertainly that they be the happy
, productive, generous,civic-minded, educated adults
that we raise them to be and wedid.
We were the first generation andwe invested much more in it at
(20:32):
a psychic as well as a financiallevel and time level, than the
parents of the greatestgeneration did Then.
You know, parents in the 50sand 60s did?
I mean, as far as they wereconcerned, if they raised us
reasonably and could educate usand get us out the door, they'd
(20:52):
done their job.
They didn't really think aboutbeing a.
They knew what a bad parent was.
You know.
A bad parent was intentionallyneglectful or abusive.
They weren't that.
They did the best they couldand while they had dreams for us
, mostly they were dreams thatwe'd be able to support
ourselves.
Because they were the childrenof the depression we wanted our
(21:14):
kids to be much able to do muchmore than support themselves.
We wanted them to be happy andyou know, happy is not.
It's not that our parent, myown parents, wanted me to be
unhappy.
They just didn't think beinghappy was the most important
takeaway in adulthood.
Speaker 3 (21:29):
Well, it's also delusional.
Like happy is an emotion.
Happy is not an aspiration.
You know and I hear this.
It's also delusional.
Like happy is an emotion.
Happy is not an aspiration.
You know and I hear this.
It is the number one thing.
Almost every single patientthat I have, every parent that
comes in with their child, thenumber one thing they will put
on the sheet on the questionwhere it says what are your
dreams and hopes for your child.
(21:51):
It is to be happy, and it's animpossible thing and also we
don't generally like people whoare happy all the time, and we
also forget that happiness, likeintimacy, is not a solid state,
it's a dynamic state.
And it comes and it goes.
Speaker 2 (22:06):
I mean my father used to say happy.
Speaker 3 (22:09):
Who said you were supposed to be happy and I
thought who did you know, andalso, yeah, that they were
supposed to be sort of the, youknow, move mountains.
Everyone is a leader, everyone.
You know, our child is going tobe extraordinary Well, and they
got trophies just for showingup.
Speaker 2 (22:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:26):
But you know that goes to the point.
Okay, a couple of things.
You say we created the wordparenting and our generation put
more into parenting thanprobably any other generation.
Very true.
Which also causes ourgeneration, then, possibly to
feel the most disappointmentwhen the child doesn't go in the
direction that we had hopedthey were going to go in.
That's right.
We need to sort of give somethoughts to our listeners, or
(22:48):
advice.
How do we let go of thosedreams number one and number two
when it's really bad, how do wenot blame ourselves?
I mean, there isn't a parentthat doesn't say, oh, I should
have done this, I should havedone that.
Speaker 2 (23:01):
Yeah, the shoulda woulda couldas the shoulda,
woulda, couldas.
Speaker 1 (23:04):
So, how does a parent go on when they see their child
and this would be an extremesituation in jail or long-term
addiction to drugs or reallytough situations how does that
parent move on?
Speaker 2 (23:24):
Well, first of all, let's go to blame and guilt.
We are not to blame, we havenothing to be guilty about.
First of all, as all the datapoints out, our kids, from the
time they start going to school,are much more influenced by
their peers and their peerculture than they are by us.
That's not to say we don't havesome influence on them.
I mean, if we want them to beeducated, we provide them with
education and we make sure thatthey get their homework done and
(23:45):
that they go to school and thatthey work as much as we're able
to instill in them up to theirlevel of ability.
On the other hand, if theydon't do that, if they do their
hardest and then they flunk outof school or they don't get into
the college that we want themto go to, it's not our fault.
It's so rarely our fault Unless, as I say, we have
(24:07):
intentionally abused thememotionally, physically, other
ways, neglected them, thememotionally, physically, other
ways, neglected them, abandonedthem.
Then there's some fault andthen there's a reason to feel
guilt.
But in most cases, as a parent,guilt is a neurotic response to
having your kids not be perfect.
And if there are things thatyou can point to.
(24:29):
All you can say is that youregret having done them.
There are things I regret thatI wish I'd done differently with
my kids, but regret is guiltwithout the neuroses.
I can regret that I didn't put,say, more emphasis or more of
my energy or time into, say,having a religious education,
(24:50):
which I didn't.
They blew it off.
You know I want to sleep in onSundays, so I won't take them.
Now I kind of regret it becauseI think faith, especially in
troubled times, is important tohave and if you don't have a
religious background it's harderto get it.
But I don't feel guilty that Ididn't, I just regret it.
You know there are other thingsthat I regret but I don't feel
(25:12):
guilty about and all I can sayis that guilt is an entirely
wasted emotion.
If you can get rid of thatguilt and remind yourself that
this isn't your problem and thattheir problem was not caused by
you, it was caused by them.
They are adults.
Their depression, theiraddiction, their dependence was
(25:35):
caused by themselves and how yourespond to it.
Responding out of guilt isnever a good idea, because
responding out of guilt justmakes it worse.
Responding out of regret and asincere desire to support what
you can is a much more usefulapproach, but we talk about
separating.
What you can is a much moreuseful approach, but we talk
about separating.
I'm not saying, you know, tellyour kids to leave and lock the
(25:58):
door or leave no boardingaddress, right right.
I'm saying that you get to drawsome boundaries.
For instance, if you have adrug-addicted child who is still
using, despite your firstefforts to help, which probably
included paying for rehab ormaybe your second or third ones,
all you can say is I don't wantyou home when you're using.
(26:21):
I'll be glad to go for a walkwith you or to see you, but you
don't get to come into the house.
You can draw boundaries, andyou can draw boundaries around
money.
You can say somebody lost hisjob and can't make the payments
on his car, and you can say I'llpay your rent for three months
and if you haven't found work bythen, maybe you need to give up
your job and move in withsomebody else.
(26:42):
You can offer help on a limitedbasis so that the end of it is
in sight.
Speaker 1 (26:48):
Interesting.
I want to say something to that.
But I also want to saysomething to what you said
earlier about guilt and regret.
Do you sometimes wonder whetherthe guilt is more embarrassment
and we sort of talked aboutthis before when we talked
earlier the dirty little secretthat you're embarrassed because
your child is not doing as wellas you had hoped or thought.
Speaker 2 (27:09):
We are, and when we're with people whose kids
apparently have turned outwonderfully, it's even more
difficult.
I tell a story in my book aboutmy friend Lila, whose kid,
peter, has never been anythingother than a perfect child.
And there are times and she'sone of my oldest friends and
there are times that I hate herbecause Peter is so perfect.
He's never done one thing tomake his parents anything but
(27:33):
proud and happy, but he's heronly child.
I have just as many friends whohave two or three kids and only
talk about the one who's doingfine, and they either lie or
brag, and sometimes both aboutthe others.
We're all embarrassed as if wehad much more to do with it than
we had.
There's somebody I quoted inthat book who wrote a book about
(27:55):
her problems with her daughterand she says if a factory turns
out a bad product, we blame thefactory.
I turned out a bad product.
Is there something this I'mblaming?
Everybody else is blaming thefactory, I'm the factory.
We're not the people that areto blame if our kids don't turn
out well, you know, especiallyif we know that we have done
(28:17):
everything we were supposed todo and probably more.
So I'm saying that getting ridof the guilt is a really
important psychological tool tohelp you change your
relationship with your grownchild.
You know it's the same way aswhen grown kids are on the couch
they blame us first and as longas they can blame us, they
(28:39):
never had to take theresponsibility themselves.
So not allowing your child toblame you is as important for
them as it is for us.
Speaker 1 (28:48):
Say that one more time, because I think that's a
really good line.
Speaker 2 (28:51):
When you allow your child to blame you for their
problems which so many kids dothen, as long as you accept the
blame, they never have to takethe responsibility for solving
their own problems.
So when your kids blame you fortheir depression or their
anxiety or their inability tohold a job or to stay in a
(29:12):
relationship, if you let themblame you without saying, you
know, as long as you blame me,you don't have to do a thing
about it yourself.
As long as you let them blameyou, they will never take
responsibility for themselves.
My favorite example is thewoman and I have been one of
those women and still amsometimes who blames her extra
pounds on the fact that hermother used to give her candy or
(29:37):
cookies to calm her down.
Well, I've been putting solidfood in my own mouth for a
number of years.
Now.
It's no longer my mother'sfault if in fact it ever was and
I remember that every time Ilook at my daughter and want to
say something, I just shut mymouth.
Speaker 1 (29:55):
You know, with adult children, with parents of
divorce, sometimes each of thoseparents let's say the kid's
struggling, then each of thoseparents are blaming the other
parent for what happened.
Well, it's because your motherwasn't home, it was because your
dad did this, it was becauseand they're just, you know,
fueling the fire.
Speaker 2 (30:12):
And they're just fueling the fire.
Exactly, I was divorced when mykids were very small and there
was a time when my son blamed mefor that a lot and I said you
know, if your father hadn't left, we'd probably still be married
and you wouldn't be any happier.
And then, years later, when hewas living with his father, I
went down to visit him and themand his father and I got along
(30:36):
very nicely that weekend and Isaid to Cam afterward you must
wonder why your dad and I got adivorce.
We were so nice to each other.
And he said no, as soon as youstarted talking politics, I knew
he was right.
Again, all you can say to achild who blames you is one out
(30:57):
of every two or three kids youknow has a divorce in their
family.
Provide our children with atwo-parent happy family.
But it's not our fault if wecouldn't, and letting them blame
(31:19):
that for their problems is acop-out we can't let them get
away with.
We can just say you know Iregret it.
I wish I had been able to giveyou a two-parent family and a
white picket fence, but itdidn't happen.
Speaker 3 (31:32):
So how do you help parents find more joy in their
life?
I mean, we talked about howimportant it is to have your own
life and to separate.
Speaker 2 (31:41):
Well, one of the things I do is I give them some
tools and techniques forchanging the relationship with
their child.
A lot of the tools arecognitive behavioral tools,
which have to do with thingslike putting a rubber band
around your wrist and snappingit every time you hear yourself
about to nag your kid or aboutto say something you know you
(32:04):
shouldn't, or your frustratedfeelings or your disappointed
feelings again in a sort ofcognitive behavioral way, by
finding something that you canput those feelings into that
represents them.
A mortar and a pestle is myfavorite tool.
There's nothing to work out afeeling than grinding a nut to
(32:27):
bits with a mortar and pestleand then flushing what's left
down the garbage disposal.
That's not the same asrepressing your feelings.
It's literally destroying them,feeling them, allowing yourself
to feel that anger, to feelthat frustration, to feel that
disappointment, and destroyingit.
It's kind of like Jews, duringthe time between Rosh Hashanah
(32:51):
and Yom Kippur, put their sinsmetaphorically in cubes of bread
and drop them in the river andlet them dissolve.
There needs to be, I alwaysthink, to make those tools work.
There needs to be a kinestheticaction that goes with the
metaphorical action.
You need to grind those nuts inthe mortar and pestle.
(33:12):
You need to squeeze that breadand throw it in the water.
You need to do somethingphysically that reinforces what
you're doing psychologically,which is ridding yourself of
those feelings, not suppressingthem, ridding yourself of them.
So that's a very useful tool.
I'm sure I'm responsible forselling lots of mortar and
(33:33):
pestles.
You know, bed, bath and nowhere, or whatever it is.
There are other techniques likethat that work.
Sometimes.
The best technique is I findthat one of the things that
suffers most from problem-grownkids is a relationship between
the parents, for those parentswho are still married.
(33:54):
So I give them the homework ofallowing themselves 15 minutes a
day out of the house to talkabout their problem kid Out of
the house, because when youclean up crap in a room it
always smells like a crappy roomand to time themselves.
They get 15 minutes to talkabout the problem and that's it,
and they have to do somethingelse without the rest of their
(34:15):
time.
Like you know how, about havingsex?
How long has it been sinceyou've done that?
It's amazing how many parentsdon't even think about that
Because they're so wrapped up intheir child.
Their relationship has withered, so they need to do things to
get their child out of theirrelationship.
Speaker 1 (34:32):
That's a very interesting point.
Yeah, one of the things I alsowanted to mention when we talked
about sort of our generation ofparenting.
Sometimes the kid says, yes,I'm independent, I don't want
your advice, I don't want toknow anything, but you're still
kind of supporting them.
And I had a situation someonetold me about.
Their son got a DWI.
(34:54):
It was $10,000 to pay theattorney to clear this kid's
record.
When do you stop?
Or how do you stop?
What support do you give themwhen troubles come?
Speaker 2 (35:06):
Well, again, I think you have to consider two things.
One is the pattern of how manytimes you've bailed them out
before.
Is this the first time?
Another is your resources.
And you know, one of the thingswe forget when we talk about
our resources is that they aremarital resources.
They're not just ours, and thatincludes when a child comes
back home to live.
(35:26):
We don't usually ask ourhusbands if it's okay and that's
a marital resource.
We need to talk to them beforewe make any offers about help,
because it's not just our moneywe're spending.
So that's an important thing.
Again, you know, a $10,000lawyer for DWI is probably going
to end up, if it was the firstoffense, with the same thing.
(35:48):
A public defender or a regularlawyer would you know?
I think that's way out of line.
But if your son is determinedto have the $10,000 lawyer, then
I think all you can do is tosay we'll give you $1,000 toward
it.
If you want this lawyer, you'regoing to have to figure out a
way to pay the rest of ityourself.
Speaker 1 (36:08):
And there's the embarrassment versus the guilt.
The parent wants it off theirrecord as much as the kids does
for their own embarrassment, sothey're almost willing to put
more so that the kid does havethis great lawyer to make sure
it really happens.
Speaker 2 (36:20):
I think the only time it pays to bankrupt yourself
for your child is if they have amedical condition and they
don't have insurance.
And I mean a medical condition,I don't mean the kind of thing
that they can set up a paymentplan to pay with.
But if they have a significantmedical problem and you have
exhausted every otherpossibility of help from the
(36:42):
government, from the hospital,that's probably a place where I
would bankrupt myself, butthat's the only thing and that's
not something that they willprobably need my help with for
as long as they live.
And you know, in the same wayfor my spouse.
I think that the amount of helpthat you give your child say
they graduate from college hasto be limited and it has to be
(37:06):
conditional.
I mean, you know it doesn'tcost anything else or only a few
dollars extra to keep them onyour cell phone plan, but it
also doesn't cost them that muchto get one of their own, and
it's a move toward independence.
I think that, again, if theydon't have medical insurance, if
they don't have catastropheinsurance at 21 or 22, and they
(37:29):
don't have a job that gives itto them, I would march them to
the nearest state affordablecare plan and if they needed
help with that, I would probablygive that.
I'm not sure that I would payfor car insurance In most states
you can't drive without it andlet them figure out how to deal
with that.
I would probably, if I had theresources, help them with a down
(37:51):
payment on their first house.
If they had been financiallyresponsible and wanted to buy a
car, I might co-sign a loan forthem, but I wouldn't buy it for
them.
Again, it depends on what kindof child you have.
Speaker 1 (38:06):
Yeah, a lot depends on that and how responsible
they've been about repaying you.
Speaker 2 (38:11):
When it's a loan, I'd also look at the difference
between a loan and a gift.
You might want to give yourchild a gift rather than a loan,
and that's fine, but a loan isa good way for them to get used
to establishing credit andpaying you back.
Speaker 3 (38:25):
Yeah, I do think this makes it hard, though in a
different way, when you havemore than one child, because
what happens is you're willingto give more to the child who
has done well, who has finishedcollege or going on to medical
school or has a successful job,who needs your help less than
(38:45):
the child who didn't do thosethings, the child who is
struggling, and then you've gotthe sibling rivalry to contend
with.
Speaker 2 (38:52):
Well, I know a number .
I have a number of clientswhose sibling that's doing fine
says to them you know, it's notfair that you're giving Greg all
this help and all this moneyand he's 27 and you're still
paying his rent and I'm livingon my own and I'm paying mine
and it's not fair that you'regiving it to them.
And, first of all, I thinkthere's a problem if you're
(39:12):
paying a 27 year old's rent.
Speaker 1 (39:14):
You don't know how often that happens.
Let me just tell you oh, ithappens a lot it happens a lot.
Speaker 2 (39:19):
And you know, I say to them, to these clients well,
if your kids are concerned, thatyou are favoring them rather
than you ask them what you thinkyou should do, and if they say
I think you should stop helpingthem because they're perfectly
capable of helping themselvesand you know that too I think
(39:40):
that's another reason to getyour kid off the dole, another
thing you can do.
I grew up with a sister who wasmentally ill and was in and out
of mental hospitals for 15years, and I knew how much money
it was costing my mother andfather.
And at one point my parentssaid to me we'll even this out
(40:00):
when we die, don't worry, we'releaving money in trust for her,
but we'll even this out.
And I wasn't even aware that Iwas thinking that far ahead, but
it made me feel better, becauseoccasionally I would have those
thoughts about she's costingthem all this much money.
What if I need it someday?
Speaker 1 (40:18):
But I think when it's a health issue like that, a
mental health issue, youunderstand a little bit more.
What I tend to see is it'salmost like you're rewarding the
child who is?
Messing up.
That's exactly right.
So the son or daughter, that'ssucceeding.
I don't want to say forgottenyou're proud of them Is
penalized for succeeding.
Speaker 2 (40:38):
yeah, and again.
I think that goes back to theissue of why are you continuing
to support a 25-year-old?
Speaker 1 (40:45):
You know a situation that I heard of their parent was
supporting them way into I mean40s, 50s, and it was because
they had had grandchildren.
They were more concerned aboutthe grandchildren being homeless
.
We have to continue to supporthim because he has these three
children now.
Speaker 2 (41:02):
Well, I do hear a lot of grandparents more concerned
about their grandchildren thanthe child, but in most cases a
non-working parent of threechildren has access to some kind
of other aid and helping thechildren is not the same as
helping the parent, but it'shard not to.
(41:24):
You know, a parent who ishomeless and has children
usually has some recourse tosome other help and I understand
helping that child with a homefor him or her and the children.
But again, it needs to be alimited time and a limited
amount.
Speaker 1 (41:44):
I really agree with that, and that's certainly true
of babysitting also.
Speaker 2 (41:49):
You know, the young woman who, with children, who
takes a job assuming that hermother or mother and father are
going to care for her kids,needs to have a real talk.
The parents need to have a realtalk when the daughter says, oh
, I've got this wonderful job.
And you say, what are you goingto do for child care?
And she says, well, I figuredyou'd take care of them.
And that's when you get to saythat's not my plan.
(42:12):
I'll be a backup in case yourchild care provider can't do it
once or twice, but I am notgoing to be your child care
provider, Unless, of course, youwant to be Right right In that
case, why not?
Speaker 1 (42:25):
Right.
Speaker 2 (42:26):
But I would still draw some boundaries around it.
I would still say I will do itthree days a week or whatever.
Speaker 1 (42:33):
This leads into somewhere in your book you say
the parent who gives too much.
What does this mean and howdoes it help or harm?
Is that in what we were justtalking about or is it something
different?
Speaker 2 (42:43):
I think it's in what we were just talking about.
The parent who gives too muchis not helping a child to be
more independent unless there isan interdependence, unless that
child is also giving the parentsomething, whether it's help of
some sort.
I think interdependence iswhere, ultimately, we want to be
(43:07):
with our kids, which is thebest chance for a mutual
relationship.
Speaker 1 (43:11):
What do you mean by that?
Explain what you mean byinterdependence.
Speaker 2 (43:14):
I mean being able to call on your kids for help when
you need it.
Okay, for instance, I'm aboutto have my hip replaced.
I'm going to need my daughter,who lives in a different town,
to be here for a week.
And she said to me when wetalked about it well, of course
I'll be there, mom, but whatabout Cam, her brother?
And she said you know, justbecause he's a guy, he's just as
(43:36):
capable.
And I thought you know you'reright.
So I called my son and he saidI can be available from, you
know, five o'clock after work tonine o'clock.
Fine, good, okay, I have to ask.
They don't usually offer unlessI ask, but when I ask I feel
(43:58):
okay because they ask me whenthey need something and I ask
them when they need something.
And I think, as I get older,that interdependence is going to
be an even bigger part of ourrelationship.
Speaker 1 (44:04):
Yeah, I worry a lot about that.
Speaker 3 (44:06):
Yeah set the stage.
Speaker 2 (44:07):
I mean, none of us has kids, so there'll be
somebody to take care of us whenwe're old.
That's usually not the reason,but it's really nice to know you
can count on them to do it ifyou need to, and that comes from
having a mutually successfulrelationship when they're
younger.
So we're getting towards the endof this conversation
(44:52):
no-transcript other parents whoare going through the same
things, who are not embarrassed.
That's number one.
Number two is you probably willhear stories that will make
your problems seem much smaller.
And the other thing, I think,is to tell your closest friends.
(45:15):
I think the way to banishdisappointment and embarrassment
is to tell people.
And again, unless you feelguilty about it, and if you feel
guilty about it, the firstthing you need to do is to work
on transforming that guilt intoregret.
And when you say to a friend,you know, my kid is not doing
very well, she's got a drugproblem, he's unable to hold a
(45:38):
job, you're going to find a lotof.
You're going to hear a lot ofme too, that you didn't expect.
You're going to get empathy,not judgment, and I think for
most parents you're not going toget judgment.
You're going to get empathy.
And it's very hard to open upand it may be that all you can
open up to is, you know, yourrunning partner or one friend,
(45:59):
which is where a support group,I think, can be really, really
helpful.
Speaker 1 (46:03):
I think that's a really good idea.
A support group would be a goodidea.
Speaker 2 (46:06):
Sharing the burden is lifting it.
Speaker 1 (46:07):
Say that again the burden is lifting it.
Speaker 2 (46:10):
Yes, it lightens it, it really does.
Yeah, you know, when our kidswere young, we oftentimes raised
them in communities with othermoms especially women, yeah, so
we knew that, if he was stillwetting the bed at four, that
very few kids graduate from highschool in diapers.
(46:31):
We learned that kids developdifferently at different stages
throughout their childhood, andthat's true about adult children
too.
I mean.
There's a lot of research thatsays their brains are not fully
formed until they're 25.
Kids grow up in different waysat different times.
Your kid may be a straight-Astudent at college and unable to
(46:53):
keep his finances straight.
Your daughter may be a giftedathlete but completely unable to
deal with relationship angst,and probably in a couple of
years she won't be such a greatathlete, but she'll have had
enough bad relationships to showher what a good one is.
I mean, give your kids a chanceto grow up before you make a
(47:14):
judgment about who they are.
Speaker 3 (47:16):
I think Denise might have already asked it, but I'm
going to ask it again what arethe last two or three pieces of
advice that you would have?
And I'm going to add one, whichis kind of what you just said,
which is start talking to otherparents, about your kids, in
ways that are supportive to youand them, just like you used to
(47:37):
do when they were one.
And I think this goes awrysometime around when kids are
applying to colleges andeverybody gets so competitive,
yes, and then we never kind ofpull it back together as parents
.
Speaker 2 (48:00):
Exactly.
You know.
One good way might be, whenyour kids are out of school,
just to have a summer party andinvite all those parents that
used to parent in thecommunities and say bring your
kids who don't Brag or lie, wedon't care, just come and let's
get together again.
Speaker 1 (48:13):
The brag or lie party , if you say brag or lie
everybody will be very open.
Yeah, no, what I wanted to sayis, Jane, we end every episode
with our guests giving us two orthree takeaways, even if it's
been mentioned before that wereally hope that our listeners
will take away from this.
What are the two or threepoints you want our listeners to
take from this?
Speaker 2 (48:32):
Who they are now is different from the child you
raised.
Life has taught them lessons ortaken blows that haven't
happened to you, so you reallydon't know who they are now.
Take a few minutes and find out.
Ask some questions like whatare your dreams?
What are your expectations?
Where do you want to be in afew years?
(48:53):
Ask them, they really do wantto talk.
Often they're just waiting foran opening.
And the other thing is when youwant to give them, loan them,
support them in some way.
Really consider whether whatyou're giving or offering is
going to further theirindependence or further their
(49:13):
dependence on you.
Speaker 1 (49:15):
That's wonderful.
I think those are great closingpoints.
Jane.
We really appreciate yourjoining us today.
This has been so interesting,and it's just interesting to me
that this whole area of emergingadulthood has become such a big
deal lately.
Speaker 2 (49:29):
Well, you know, it's a relatively new phenomenon
historically speaking, because,you know, kids grew up, went to
high school and went right intothe labor market.
They didn't really have a youngadulthood.
They went from late adolescenceto adulthood without any place
in between Kids.
Today, 30 is the new 21.
Now they're taking a lot longerthan we did, it seems like, and
(49:55):
that's a cultural as well aspersonal choice.
And it's also economic andsocial.
The same guiding posts that wehad that marked adulthood,
graduation, real job, child,family or family child those
don't come in the same order anylonger.
Yeah, yeah, and some of themdon't come at all.
Speaker 1 (50:15):
Yeah Well, thank you again and good luck with your
hip replacement.
I hope it all goes reallyreally well.
Speaker 2 (50:20):
Well, I'm sure glad I have grown kids who are able to
help and willing.
Speaker 1 (50:24):
Yeah, that's right, thank you, Thank you, thank you,
okay, take care.
Thank you, listeners, forjoining us again today.
A bit of a difficult topic, butI think Jane encourages us to
get rid of any guilt we may have.
We can have regret, we all haveregrets, but guilt is what
really brings us down.
(50:45):
I remember when my kids werelittle ones, I read the book the
Good Enough Parent by childpsychologist Bruno Bettelheim.
The part I remember most isthat he said parents must not
indulge their impulse to cry tocreate the children they would
like to have, but should insteadhelp each child fully develop
(51:05):
into the person he or she wouldlike to be.
It gave me a ray of hope.
I did not have to be perfect, Ijust had to be present.
I hope you enjoyed this episodeand, as we head to the end of
our first season, I'm going toask our listeners again to send
us ideas and topics you'd likeus to discuss.
(51:25):
This is really helpful.
Also, make sure you share thisepisode or one of your favorites
with a friend so we can growand keep on producing.
Follow us on social media andgive us a review.
We appreciate that too, andremember you can visit our
website at any time for all theepisodes
biteyourtonguepodcastcom.
(51:47):
You can also email us at anytime at biteyourtonguepodcast at
gmailcom.
We'd love to hear from you.
Thanks again, thanks forlistening and remember,
sometimes you just might have tobite your tongue.
Hey everyone, this is Denise.
Before we start today's episode, I just want you to know for
the next few episodes we'regoing to do some episode rewinds
, meaning playing episodes thatwe've done earlier that we think
are really terrific and deservea second listen.
The first one is with JaneAdams, who's a PhD and author of
the book when Our Growing KidsDisappoint Us, letting go of
(00:23):
their problems, loving themanyway and getting of the book.
When Our Growing KidsDisappoint Us, letting Go of
their Problems, loving themAnyway and Getting On With Our
Lives.
Give them a chance to grow up.
Jane says, before you makejudgments and you know, we all
know our dreams for our childrenbegin as soon as they're placed
in our arms.
How can we let go and let thembe who they are as they grow up?
(00:45):
I hope you enjoy this episode.
Let's get going.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
Well, some of it is a bit of narcissism.
You know we still think of ourchildren as belonging to us, as
an extension of us.
You know, when they're notfirst in their class graduating
from Harvard, or they don't havethe great job with whomever,
it's like we've suffered anarcissistic injury.
But in most cases it's not thatas much as the fact that, you
(01:11):
know, we haven't been able tolet our dreams for them go.
And the dreams begin the momentthe doctor puts them in our
arms.
It starts so early.
I mean, give your kids a chanceto grow up before you make a
judgment about who they are.
Speaker 1 (01:38):
Welcome to the Bite your Tongue podcast.
I'm Denise and I'm joined by mygood friend, dr Ellen Broughton
.
We've been through many yearsof parenting together and now
we're ready to talk about theins and outs of parenting adult
children.
Your diapering days are over.
Now it's time to consider whento bite your tongue.
So let's get started.
Hello everyone, it's abeautiful fall morning in Denver
(02:05):
and I'm so happy to welcome allof you to another episode of
Bite your Tongue.
Today we're talking aboutdisappointment in our adult
children.
What happens when you've givenit your all, you've raised your
kids and now you find yourself abit disappointed in things like
the lifestyle they've chosen,the partner they've chosen, or
(02:27):
something worse?
Today we're welcoming JaneAdams, phd.
Jane is the author of the bookwhen Our Grown Kids Disappoint
Us Letting Go of their Problems,loving them Anyways and Getting
On With Our Lives.
This is a tough and we'rethrilled that Jane has agreed to
speak with us.
She's also a parent coach, soactually she's the coach the
(02:51):
parenting coach for all of ourlisteners, listeners of adult
children.
Her website says being a parentdoesn't end.
It lasts as long as you do.
She is a social psychologistwho studies how we handle our
kids' transitions from youth toadulthood on time, late, or
(03:12):
maybe they just haven't evengotten there.
She's been interviewing,researching and coaching parents
who want their grown kids to behappy and successful in life,
but also want a mutual, lovingand authentic relationship with
them even more.
You know, ellen.
(03:35):
When we had our babies wethought you know we'd raise them
and that would be it.
But parenting never seems toend.
What do you think?
Speaker 3 (03:43):
Oh, that is so true.
And when we had those babies wethought there was nothing they
could ever do that woulddisappoint us.
Nothing we couldn't evenimagine there were things that
would happen that would make usanxious, other than maybe ear
infections.
We couldn't imagine there wereways that they could really make
us very unhappy and veryworried that lasted until they
(04:06):
were two right.
Speaker 1 (04:10):
Maybe more, maybe more.
Speaker 3 (04:14):
So welcome, jane, and I would love for you to tell us
a little bit more aboutyourself and why you decided to
study this time in parenting,since we are all in desperate
need of it at one time oranother.
Speaker 2 (04:26):
Well, because I was in desperate need of it too.
My kids are now grown and flown, and on their own, and a
delight to me.
But it took a lot of yearsafter they were grown and flown
before we got to that point.
I'm a life stage psychologist.
I'm always interested in thepsychosocial aspects of each
(04:51):
stage of our life and I've alsofound that if I don't know what
I'm doing, the best thing to dois to get paid to go out and
find out.
And so I've written books aboutmost stages of parenting,
beginning when they were eightor nine, with a book called Sex
and the Single Parent, because Iwas a single parent and I
(05:14):
didn't know how to be a sexualperson after all those years and
not screw up my kids' futureforever.
So I went out and I talked tothe experts and I talked to a
lot of people who were dealingwith it and figured it out and
wrote that book.
And since then, at every kindof key stage of my life where
I've had an issue, I've beenlucky enough to find a publisher
(05:36):
who thought other people wouldbe going through that too.
And when I came up with the bookwe're talking about today, when
Our Grown Kids Disappoint Us.
It was really the follow-up toa book I had written some years
before called I'm Still yourMother, when my kids were very
young adults they were incollege and what I heard from
(05:59):
people whenever I spoke andwrote or did a lecture about
that subject, people wouldalways line up afterward and say
can I talk to you privately?
And they always wanted to talkabout their kids who were
problems.
I had one kid who was gettingto be a problem at that point
and she was 25.
And I decided to do the samething I'd always done go out and
(06:23):
find out how other people dealtwith it, talk to the experts
and write about it, although bythis time I had gotten a PhD in
social psychology and I was theexpert.
So it helped, but not as muchas common sense helped.
Speaker 1 (06:43):
You know this might give some hope to some of our
listeners because you saidsomething in that introduction
of yourself that your kids noware grown and flown and on their
own, but it took some time.
What do you think, thoseemerging stages, those ages in
those emerging years that causethe most anxiety for parents,
and are we rushing our kids tobecome adults, or what's changed
(07:06):
that we get so anxious?
Speaker 2 (07:08):
I think we start, unless they have significant
issues addiction, dependence,depression when they're in
college.
We start getting worried when,after they're finished with
school, they don't seem to begetting a grip, they don't seem
to be launching, and we begin toworry about whether grip they
don't seem to be launching andwe begin to worry about whether
(07:30):
they'll be latched on to usforever, whether they'll ever be
independent.
And that's one of the thingsthat troubles a lot of parents
whose kids say they'reindependent and think they're
independent, and the parents arestill, you know, they're still
on our phone plan.
We're still the first resortrather than the last one when
they need money or bailing outof some problem.
And so the overwhelming feelingthat many of these parents have
(07:54):
is something we don't like toadmit, which is that we're
disappointed in our kids andwe're disappointed in how they
turned out if they're not doingeverything on schedule without
any major problems.
And we feel guilty about beingdisappointed because this isn't
supposed to be about us.
It's supposed to be about them,but our feelings range from
(08:18):
anger to frustration, to worry,to, ultimately, disappointment.
I went out to talk to peoplewhose kids had not turned out
quite as well as they'd expected.
I was one of them at that pointbecause my 26-year-old married,
happy daughter had developed adrug problem, and most of us
also, when our kids get to be 21or 22, are in no position to
(08:43):
impose our will on them.
If they really needhospitalization for something we
can't do, that we have aboutthe same influence as
ex-presidents.
The book is really more aboutcoming to terms with who your
kids are, loving them anyway,learning whose problems there
(09:05):
are, letting go of the problemsthat are not ours and very few
of the problems they have asadults are ours.
In fact, I can't think of anyunless they're really physically
disabled and we need to takecare of them any problems that
are ours and getting on with ourown lives.
And we get stuck in this cycleof anger, disappointment,
(09:27):
unhappiness, worry, and it keepsus from getting on with our own
lives because there's still somuch a part of it and because
our relationship with them isnot mutual or interdependent,
but they're dependent and we'rethe ones they depend on and
we're also not feeling greatabout it.
Speaker 3 (09:47):
Let me start by asking you about one of the
easiest things from that listthat you just gave us, about why
this is so hard?
And I think the easiest one butmaybe this isn't, maybe this is
just me the easiest one is toget on with our own lives.
Do you think that's true?
Speaker 2 (10:04):
Oh, it's absolutely true, because A there's very
little we can do for them rightnow.
We can immerse ourselves intheir problems, but we can't
solve their problems.
I remember when I went to adrug program with my daughter
and she said Mom, stay out of myprogram.
Well, she was doing well bythen and I learned I stayed out
(10:26):
of her program.
I didn't ask her about what shewas doing.
We didn't talk about it.
There's so little that we cando except to be there to pick
them up when they fall and standthem back on their own two feet
rather than cradling them inour arms for the rest of their
lives.
So it's essential that we learnto let go of their problems and
(10:49):
get on with their own lives andput our energy there and our
resources.
You know, so many of us havespent so much of the money we
counted on living on inretirement for our grown kids
for bailing them out of troublenot just bailing them out of
financial trouble, but bailingthem out of all kinds of things
that cost money.
Speaker 1 (11:09):
You know, ellen, I'm going to sort of differ with you
.
I think that whole step ofgetting on with your own life
can be very difficult.
And one of the things youaddressed in your book, jane, is
there are some parents thathave nothing more, like they've
put everything into theirparenting and they can't seem to
let go.
So I think it's very difficultif your child is in drug rehab
(11:30):
and your daughter says get outof my program.
Mom, I applaud you for then notfollowing up with questions.
You know, three weeks later,how are you doing?
How are you doing?
And I think somewhere in yourbook you said something about we
can't separate.
I mean you need to, but it's areally hard job to separate them
from us.
It's important, but how does aparent do that if they can't
(11:52):
make that step?
Speaker 2 (11:53):
Well, I think we find ways to stay in touch with them
that don't deal with theirproblem.
When my daughter was at theheight of her problem, it was
difficult, but occasionally wewent to a movie, we went out for
dinner and I didn't sayanything, because being with her
and letting her know I lovedher, even though I couldn't help
(12:14):
her, was important to both ofus.
I wasn't letting go of her, Iwas just letting go of her
problem.
Speaker 3 (12:21):
But I think part of it also is that so many parents
don't have a life outside theirown children.
They don't have an identity.
Their identity is I am a mother.
That's true, I am a father andso they need to find their own
identity, and I do find thatit's helpful for adult children
(12:42):
and children of all ages reallyto have parents who have an
identity.
Speaker 2 (12:46):
It's very important, but it isn't.
You know, it was never ourkids' role, once they left home,
to provide us with an alternateidentity or another role.
That's our problem.
That's our role is to findanother one.
And the other thing that manyparents don't know when their
kids are in their 20s is thatonce they are finally ultimately
(13:08):
fully engaged in their adultlives, when they have a career
rather than a job, when theyhave a family rather than an
assortment of come and go lovers, they don't want to be in our
lives.
They don't want to spend thatmuch time with us.
They've got really busy livesof their own, regardless of
whether they have problems.
Speaker 1 (13:27):
Right and when we look back to our own lives, we
were just like that and I thinkwhat you said, Alan, is exactly
right.
But there's a lot of parentsthat gave 150% to raising their
children.
The children leave and theyhave no idea how to pick up.
And that might just be a wholenother episode, because I think
I remember when I had mydaughter and all of my attention
(13:49):
192% was on her and I think itwas damaging.
When I had my son, I thoughtthe best gift I gave her was
having my son, because then sheonly got 50% or 70%.
And you know, I feel likethat's the exact same thing.
When they become young adults,the best gift we can give them
is for us to have richindividual lives.
(14:11):
That's true.
Speaker 2 (14:13):
One of the things we find out when our kids leave
home, when we have devoted allof our time and attention to
them, is that we have nothing tosay to our spouses if they're
still with us.
And not only have we beentotally wrapped up in our mother
role, but we've also begun tosee them only as a partner in
parenting, not as friend, lover,spout, not as those other
(14:37):
things.
And they've begun to see usonly as a mother, not a lover, a
partner, a friend.
We've talked around them, we'vetalked over them, but we
haven't talked to each otherdirectly.
I've found that for many of theclients that I deal with, the
idea that they only see theother person as a partner in
(15:00):
child rearing is a big surpriseto them, and some of them you
know one of them did a marriageenrichment weekend, which she
said was better than theirhoneymoon.
They had really beginning todiscover each other again.
Some couples look at each otherand say you know well, we've
done that and there's reallynothing else holding us together
and separate them.
(15:21):
It's a really critical time.
Speaker 1 (15:22):
It's a very critical time.
You see a lot of divorceshappening around that time.
Speaker 2 (15:26):
Well, and you see just as many happening in a
child's first year of college,which is, for your child's sake,
the most dangerous time todivorce.
Speaker 1 (15:35):
Why do you say that Well?
Speaker 2 (15:36):
because many of them think that if they come home
from college they can make mommyand daddy together again, or
that their parents will beunable the parent who's
remaining the mother usuallywill be unable to manage without
them.
It's a major reason that kidsdrop out of college in their
first semester.
(15:57):
The living arrangements and themarital arrangements until the
end of their first year ofcollege.
You're going to do less damageto them In fact you probably
won't do any, because they willbe in their own lives now that
makes sense Makes sense On theother hand too.
Speaker 3 (16:16):
I think that that time of transition can also be
the other way, very hard onmarriages, to the point where a
lot of marriages don't survivethrough the 20s and the college
years, when the child can'treally make it.
Sometimes it brings themtogether, but it also is a hard
time for couples to manage.
Speaker 2 (16:38):
One of the interesting things to me I found
when I talked to parents abouttheir kids coming back home.
It's usually the mother thatdoesn't want them back home.
She's done her child.
This is assuming their kiddoesn't have many problems
except no job or dropping out ofcollege.
And the mother says, you know,I've been there, done that.
(16:58):
It's the father who says, oh,now that they're old enough to
be decent company, let them comehome.
You know, why should she payfor an apartment when we've got
a perfectly nice room here?
And it's the fathers, much morethan the mothers, who want
their kids back when theyboomerang back home.
Speaker 1 (17:15):
Well, I'm going to say something very sexist here.
It could be because the mom didmost of the housekeeping and
all of that while they weregrowing up and the dad thinks,
oh, they're home.
That doesn't mean more food,more cooking, more laundry.
It just means I get to enjoythem where the mother's thinking
, oh my gosh.
Speaker 2 (17:30):
No, it's actually.
It's a very gender-relatedissue.
It's not sexist, it's just.
That's the difference betweenfathers and mothers.
You know, and many of thefathers, by the time their kids
are in their twenties, many ofthe fathers are close to
retirement, they've got lots oftime on their hands and their
wives are busy either taking upa career they put away or
starting something new.
(17:50):
You know, they've invested intheir lives as adults without
children, as adults who are notcaretakers and they don't want
to be waiting up until you know,to hear the car come in or
picking up after their.
You know they don't want to dothose things anymore.
They've done them.
Speaker 1 (18:07):
So I want to talk a little bit about this whole idea
of disappointment, because yousay something in your book about
where your expectationsoverblown Are.
You, you know?
Is it narcissism?
Is it our problem or theirproblem?
You know you can have a reallytough situation your child's in
jail, your child's having drugissues, but your child didn't go
(18:27):
to medical school like youexpected or law school like you
expected and you're harboringdisappointment.
Where does disappointment lieand why do some parents feel
very disappointed, even when thechild might be living a pretty
happy life?
Speaker 2 (18:40):
Well, some of it is a bit of narcissism.
You know we still think of ourchildren as belonging to us, as
an extension of us.
You know, when they're notfirst in their class graduating
from Harvard, or they don't havethe great job with whomever,
it's like we've suffered anarcissistic injury, but in most
cases it's not that as much asthe fact that, you know, we
(19:02):
haven't been able to let ourdreams for them go.
And the dreams begin the momentthe doctor puts them in our
arms.
So true, you know, we thinkabout names in terms of how
they'll look on a politicalposter or, in my case, a book
jacket.
You know it starts so early.
We may raise a child who isn'tthe least bit interested in math
(19:24):
and science but is a greatreader and writer, and we can't
let go of our dreams that hebecome a doctor or she become a
doc, and maybe they've got a jobat Target while they're writing
a book in their spare time andwe still are thinking that
they're not fulfilling theirpotential.
Well, they are, but it's theirdreams and they may have a
(19:47):
different dream for themselves.
One of the hard things to do isto separate your dreams for
your child with his or herdreams for themselves.
Sometimes it's nice to ask youknow, where do you see yourself
in five years or in 10 years?
If you could design the perfectlife, what would it look like?
And you need to ask thosequestions in order to say, okay,
(20:08):
I guess I better put that dreamaway.
But our expectation iscertainly that they be the happy
, productive, generous,civic-minded, educated adults
that we raise them to be and wedid.
We were the first generation andwe invested much more in it at
(20:32):
a psychic as well as a financiallevel and time level, than the
parents of the greatestgeneration did Then.
You know, parents in the 50sand 60s did?
I mean, as far as they wereconcerned, if they raised us
reasonably and could educate usand get us out the door, they'd
(20:52):
done their job.
They didn't really think aboutbeing a.
They knew what a bad parent was.
You know.
A bad parent was intentionallyneglectful or abusive.
They weren't that.
They did the best they couldand while they had dreams for us
, mostly they were dreams thatwe'd be able to support
ourselves.
Because they were the childrenof the depression we wanted our
(21:14):
kids to be much able to do muchmore than support themselves.
We wanted them to be happy andyou know, happy is not.
It's not that our parent, myown parents, wanted me to be
unhappy.
They just didn't think beinghappy was the most important
takeaway in adulthood.
Speaker 3 (21:29):
Well, it's also delusional.
Like happy is an emotion.
Happy is not an aspiration.
You know and I hear this.
It's also delusional.
Like happy is an emotion.
Happy is not an aspiration.
You know and I hear this.
It is the number one thing.
Almost every single patientthat I have, every parent that
comes in with their child, thenumber one thing they will put
on the sheet on the questionwhere it says what are your
dreams and hopes for your child.
(21:51):
It is to be happy, and it's animpossible thing and also we
don't generally like people whoare happy all the time, and we
also forget that happiness, likeintimacy, is not a solid state,
it's a dynamic state.
And it comes and it goes.
Speaker 2 (22:06):
I mean my father used to say happy.
Speaker 3 (22:09):
Who said you were supposed to be happy and I
thought who did you know, andalso, yeah, that they were
supposed to be sort of the, youknow, move mountains.
Everyone is a leader, everyone.
You know, our child is going tobe extraordinary Well, and they
got trophies just for showingup.
Speaker 2 (22:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:26):
But you know that goes to the point.
Okay, a couple of things.
You say we created the wordparenting and our generation put
more into parenting thanprobably any other generation.
Very true.
Which also causes ourgeneration, then, possibly to
feel the most disappointmentwhen the child doesn't go in the
direction that we had hopedthey were going to go in.
That's right.
We need to sort of give somethoughts to our listeners, or
(22:48):
advice.
How do we let go of thosedreams number one and number two
when it's really bad, how do wenot blame ourselves?
I mean, there isn't a parentthat doesn't say, oh, I should
have done this, I should havedone that.
Speaker 2 (23:01):
Yeah, the shoulda woulda couldas the shoulda,
woulda, couldas.
Speaker 1 (23:04):
So, how does a parent go on when they see their child
and this would be an extremesituation in jail or long-term
addiction to drugs or reallytough situations how does that
parent move on?
Speaker 2 (23:24):
Well, first of all, let's go to blame and guilt.
We are not to blame, we havenothing to be guilty about.
First of all, as all the datapoints out, our kids, from the
time they start going to school,are much more influenced by
their peers and their peerculture than they are by us.
That's not to say we don't havesome influence on them.
I mean, if we want them to beeducated, we provide them with
education and we make sure thatthey get their homework done and
(23:45):
that they go to school and thatthey work as much as we're able
to instill in them up to theirlevel of ability.
On the other hand, if theydon't do that, if they do their
hardest and then they flunk outof school or they don't get into
the college that we want themto go to, it's not our fault.
It's so rarely our fault Unless, as I say, we have
(24:07):
intentionally abused thememotionally, physically, other
ways, neglected them, thememotionally, physically, other
ways, neglected them, abandonedthem.
Then there's some fault andthen there's a reason to feel
guilt.
But in most cases, as a parent,guilt is a neurotic response to
having your kids not be perfect.
And if there are things thatyou can point to.
(24:29):
All you can say is that youregret having done them.
There are things I regret thatI wish I'd done differently with
my kids, but regret is guiltwithout the neuroses.
I can regret that I didn't put,say, more emphasis or more of
my energy or time into, say,having a religious education,
(24:50):
which I didn't.
They blew it off.
You know I want to sleep in onSundays, so I won't take them.
Now I kind of regret it becauseI think faith, especially in
troubled times, is important tohave and if you don't have a
religious background it's harderto get it.
But I don't feel guilty that Ididn't, I just regret it.
You know there are other thingsthat I regret but I don't feel
(25:12):
guilty about and all I can sayis that guilt is an entirely
wasted emotion.
If you can get rid of thatguilt and remind yourself that
this isn't your problem and thattheir problem was not caused by
you, it was caused by them.
They are adults.
Their depression, theiraddiction, their dependence was
(25:35):
caused by themselves and how yourespond to it.
Responding out of guilt isnever a good idea, because
responding out of guilt justmakes it worse.
Responding out of regret and asincere desire to support what
you can is a much more usefulapproach, but we talk about
separating.
What you can is a much moreuseful approach, but we talk
about separating.
I'm not saying, you know, tellyour kids to leave and lock the
(25:58):
door or leave no boardingaddress, right right.
I'm saying that you get to drawsome boundaries.
For instance, if you have adrug-addicted child who is still
using, despite your firstefforts to help, which probably
included paying for rehab ormaybe your second or third ones,
all you can say is I don't wantyou home when you're using.
(26:21):
I'll be glad to go for a walkwith you or to see you, but you
don't get to come into the house.
You can draw boundaries, andyou can draw boundaries around
money.
You can say somebody lost hisjob and can't make the payments
on his car, and you can say I'llpay your rent for three months
and if you haven't found work bythen, maybe you need to give up
your job and move in withsomebody else.
(26:42):
You can offer help on a limitedbasis so that the end of it is
in sight.
Speaker 1 (26:48):
Interesting.
I want to say something to that.
But I also want to saysomething to what you said
earlier about guilt and regret.
Do you sometimes wonder whetherthe guilt is more embarrassment
and we sort of talked aboutthis before when we talked
earlier the dirty little secretthat you're embarrassed because
your child is not doing as wellas you had hoped or thought.
Speaker 2 (27:09):
We are, and when we're with people whose kids
apparently have turned outwonderfully, it's even more
difficult.
I tell a story in my book aboutmy friend Lila, whose kid,
peter, has never been anythingother than a perfect child.
And there are times and she'sone of my oldest friends and
there are times that I hate herbecause Peter is so perfect.
He's never done one thing tomake his parents anything but
(27:33):
proud and happy, but he's heronly child.
I have just as many friends whohave two or three kids and only
talk about the one who's doingfine, and they either lie or
brag, and sometimes both aboutthe others.
We're all embarrassed as if wehad much more to do with it than
we had.
There's somebody I quoted inthat book who wrote a book about
(27:55):
her problems with her daughterand she says if a factory turns
out a bad product, we blame thefactory.
I turned out a bad product.
Is there something this I'mblaming?
Everybody else is blaming thefactory, I'm the factory.
We're not the people that areto blame if our kids don't turn
out well, you know, especiallyif we know that we have done
(28:17):
everything we were supposed todo and probably more.
So I'm saying that getting ridof the guilt is a really
important psychological tool tohelp you change your
relationship with your grownchild.
You know it's the same way aswhen grown kids are on the couch
they blame us first and as longas they can blame us, they
(28:39):
never had to take theresponsibility themselves.
So not allowing your child toblame you is as important for
them as it is for us.
Speaker 1 (28:48):
Say that one more time, because I think that's a
really good line.
Speaker 2 (28:51):
When you allow your child to blame you for their
problems which so many kids dothen, as long as you accept the
blame, they never have to takethe responsibility for solving
their own problems.
So when your kids blame you fortheir depression or their
anxiety or their inability tohold a job or to stay in a
(29:12):
relationship, if you let themblame you without saying, you
know, as long as you blame me,you don't have to do a thing
about it yourself.
As long as you let them blameyou, they will never take
responsibility for themselves.
My favorite example is thewoman and I have been one of
those women and still amsometimes who blames her extra
pounds on the fact that hermother used to give her candy or
(29:37):
cookies to calm her down.
Well, I've been putting solidfood in my own mouth for a
number of years.
Now.
It's no longer my mother'sfault if in fact it ever was and
I remember that every time Ilook at my daughter and want to
say something, I just shut mymouth.
Speaker 1 (29:55):
You know, with adult children, with parents of
divorce, sometimes each of thoseparents let's say the kid's
struggling, then each of thoseparents are blaming the other
parent for what happened.
Well, it's because your motherwasn't home, it was because your
dad did this, it was becauseand they're just, you know,
fueling the fire.
Speaker 2 (30:12):
And they're just fueling the fire.
Exactly, I was divorced when mykids were very small and there
was a time when my son blamed mefor that a lot and I said you
know, if your father hadn't left, we'd probably still be married
and you wouldn't be any happier.
And then, years later, when hewas living with his father, I
went down to visit him and themand his father and I got along
(30:36):
very nicely that weekend and Isaid to Cam afterward you must
wonder why your dad and I got adivorce.
We were so nice to each other.
And he said no, as soon as youstarted talking politics, I knew
he was right.
Again, all you can say to achild who blames you is one out
(30:57):
of every two or three kids youknow has a divorce in their
family.
Provide our children with atwo-parent happy family.
But it's not our fault if wecouldn't, and letting them blame
(31:19):
that for their problems is acop-out we can't let them get
away with.
We can just say you know Iregret it.
I wish I had been able to giveyou a two-parent family and a
white picket fence, but itdidn't happen.
Speaker 3 (31:32):
So how do you help parents find more joy in their
life?
I mean, we talked about howimportant it is to have your own
life and to separate.
Speaker 2 (31:41):
Well, one of the things I do is I give them some
tools and techniques forchanging the relationship with
their child.
A lot of the tools arecognitive behavioral tools,
which have to do with thingslike putting a rubber band
around your wrist and snappingit every time you hear yourself
about to nag your kid or aboutto say something you know you
(32:04):
shouldn't, or your frustratedfeelings or your disappointed
feelings again in a sort ofcognitive behavioral way, by
finding something that you canput those feelings into that
represents them.
A mortar and a pestle is myfavorite tool.
There's nothing to work out afeeling than grinding a nut to
(32:27):
bits with a mortar and pestleand then flushing what's left
down the garbage disposal.
That's not the same asrepressing your feelings.
It's literally destroying them,feeling them, allowing yourself
to feel that anger, to feelthat frustration, to feel that
disappointment, and destroyingit.
It's kind of like Jews, duringthe time between Rosh Hashanah
(32:51):
and Yom Kippur, put their sinsmetaphorically in cubes of bread
and drop them in the river andlet them dissolve.
There needs to be, I alwaysthink, to make those tools work.
There needs to be a kinestheticaction that goes with the
metaphorical action.
You need to grind those nuts inthe mortar and pestle.
(33:12):
You need to squeeze that breadand throw it in the water.
You need to do somethingphysically that reinforces what
you're doing psychologically,which is ridding yourself of
those feelings, not suppressingthem, ridding yourself of them.
So that's a very useful tool.
I'm sure I'm responsible forselling lots of mortar and
(33:33):
pestles.
You know, bed, bath and nowhere, or whatever it is.
There are other techniques likethat that work.
Sometimes.
The best technique is I findthat one of the things that
suffers most from problem-grownkids is a relationship between
the parents, for those parentswho are still married.
(33:54):
So I give them the homework ofallowing themselves 15 minutes a
day out of the house to talkabout their problem kid Out of
the house, because when youclean up crap in a room it
always smells like a crappy roomand to time themselves.
They get 15 minutes to talkabout the problem and that's it,
and they have to do somethingelse without the rest of their
(34:15):
time.
Like you know how, about havingsex?
How long has it been sinceyou've done that?
It's amazing how many parentsdon't even think about that
Because they're so wrapped up intheir child.
Their relationship has withered, so they need to do things to
get their child out of theirrelationship.
Speaker 1 (34:32):
That's a very interesting point.
Yeah, one of the things I alsowanted to mention when we talked
about sort of our generation ofparenting.
Sometimes the kid says, yes,I'm independent, I don't want
your advice, I don't want toknow anything, but you're still
kind of supporting them.
And I had a situation someonetold me about.
Their son got a DWI.
(34:54):
It was $10,000 to pay theattorney to clear this kid's
record.
When do you stop?
Or how do you stop?
What support do you give themwhen troubles come?
Speaker 2 (35:06):
Well, again, I think you have to consider two things.
One is the pattern of how manytimes you've bailed them out
before.
Is this the first time?
Another is your resources.
And you know, one of the thingswe forget when we talk about
our resources is that they aremarital resources.
They're not just ours, and thatincludes when a child comes
back home to live.
(35:26):
We don't usually ask ourhusbands if it's okay and that's
a marital resource.
We need to talk to them beforewe make any offers about help,
because it's not just our moneywe're spending.
So that's an important thing.
Again, you know, a $10,000lawyer for DWI is probably going
to end up, if it was the firstoffense, with the same thing.
(35:48):
A public defender or a regularlawyer would you know?
I think that's way out of line.
But if your son is determinedto have the $10,000 lawyer, then
I think all you can do is tosay we'll give you $1,000 toward
it.
If you want this lawyer, you'regoing to have to figure out a
way to pay the rest of ityourself.
Speaker 1 (36:08):
And there's the embarrassment versus the guilt.
The parent wants it off theirrecord as much as the kids does
for their own embarrassment, sothey're almost willing to put
more so that the kid does havethis great lawyer to make sure
it really happens.
Speaker 2 (36:20):
I think the only time it pays to bankrupt yourself
for your child is if they have amedical condition and they
don't have insurance.
And I mean a medical condition,I don't mean the kind of thing
that they can set up a paymentplan to pay with.
But if they have a significantmedical problem and you have
exhausted every otherpossibility of help from the
(36:42):
government, from the hospital,that's probably a place where I
would bankrupt myself, butthat's the only thing and that's
not something that they willprobably need my help with for
as long as they live.
And you know, in the same wayfor my spouse.
I think that the amount of helpthat you give your child say
they graduate from college hasto be limited and it has to be
(37:06):
conditional.
I mean, you know it doesn'tcost anything else or only a few
dollars extra to keep them onyour cell phone plan, but it
also doesn't cost them that muchto get one of their own, and
it's a move toward independence.
I think that, again, if theydon't have medical insurance, if
they don't have catastropheinsurance at 21 or 22, and they
(37:29):
don't have a job that gives itto them, I would march them to
the nearest state affordablecare plan and if they needed
help with that, I would probablygive that.
I'm not sure that I would payfor car insurance In most states
you can't drive without it andlet them figure out how to deal
with that.
I would probably, if I had theresources, help them with a down
(37:51):
payment on their first house.
If they had been financiallyresponsible and wanted to buy a
car, I might co-sign a loan forthem, but I wouldn't buy it for
them.
Again, it depends on what kindof child you have.
Speaker 1 (38:06):
Yeah, a lot depends on that and how responsible
they've been about repaying you.
Speaker 2 (38:11):
When it's a loan, I'd also look at the difference
between a loan and a gift.
You might want to give yourchild a gift rather than a loan,
and that's fine, but a loan isa good way for them to get used
to establishing credit andpaying you back.
Speaker 3 (38:25):
Yeah, I do think this makes it hard, though in a
different way, when you havemore than one child, because
what happens is you're willingto give more to the child who
has done well, who has finishedcollege or going on to medical
school or has a successful job,who needs your help less than
(38:45):
the child who didn't do thosethings, the child who is
struggling, and then you've gotthe sibling rivalry to contend
with.
Speaker 2 (38:52):
Well, I know a number .
I have a number of clientswhose sibling that's doing fine
says to them you know, it's notfair that you're giving Greg all
this help and all this moneyand he's 27 and you're still
paying his rent and I'm livingon my own and I'm paying mine
and it's not fair that you'regiving it to them.
And, first of all, I thinkthere's a problem if you're
(39:12):
paying a 27 year old's rent.
Speaker 1 (39:14):
You don't know how often that happens.
Let me just tell you oh, ithappens a lot it happens a lot.
Speaker 2 (39:19):
And you know, I say to them, to these clients well,
if your kids are concerned, thatyou are favoring them rather
than you ask them what you thinkyou should do, and if they say
I think you should stop helpingthem because they're perfectly
capable of helping themselvesand you know that too I think
(39:40):
that's another reason to getyour kid off the dole, another
thing you can do.
I grew up with a sister who wasmentally ill and was in and out
of mental hospitals for 15years, and I knew how much money
it was costing my mother andfather.
And at one point my parentssaid to me we'll even this out
(40:00):
when we die, don't worry, we'releaving money in trust for her,
but we'll even this out.
And I wasn't even aware that Iwas thinking that far ahead, but
it made me feel better, becauseoccasionally I would have those
thoughts about she's costingthem all this much money.
What if I need it someday?
Speaker 1 (40:18):
But I think when it's a health issue like that, a
mental health issue, youunderstand a little bit more.
What I tend to see is it'salmost like you're rewarding the
child who is?
Messing up.
That's exactly right.
So the son or daughter, that'ssucceeding.
I don't want to say forgottenyou're proud of them Is
penalized for succeeding.
Speaker 2 (40:38):
yeah, and again.
I think that goes back to theissue of why are you continuing
to support a 25-year-old?
Speaker 1 (40:45):
You know a situation that I heard of their parent was
supporting them way into I mean40s, 50s, and it was because
they had had grandchildren.
They were more concerned aboutthe grandchildren being homeless
.
We have to continue to supporthim because he has these three
children now.
Speaker 2 (41:02):
Well, I do hear a lot of grandparents more concerned
about their grandchildren thanthe child, but in most cases a
non-working parent of threechildren has access to some kind
of other aid and helping thechildren is not the same as
helping the parent, but it'shard not to.
(41:24):
You know, a parent who ishomeless and has children
usually has some recourse tosome other help and I understand
helping that child with a homefor him or her and the children.
But again, it needs to be alimited time and a limited
amount.
Speaker 1 (41:44):
I really agree with that, and that's certainly true
of babysitting also.
Speaker 2 (41:49):
You know, the young woman who, with children, who
takes a job assuming that hermother or mother and father are
going to care for her kids,needs to have a real talk.
The parents need to have a realtalk when the daughter says, oh
, I've got this wonderful job.
And you say, what are you goingto do for child care?
And she says, well, I figuredyou'd take care of them.
And that's when you get to saythat's not my plan.
(42:12):
I'll be a backup in case yourchild care provider can't do it
once or twice, but I am notgoing to be your child care
provider, Unless, of course, youwant to be Right right In that
case, why not?
Speaker 1 (42:25):
Right.
Speaker 2 (42:26):
But I would still draw some boundaries around it.
I would still say I will do itthree days a week or whatever.
Speaker 1 (42:33):
This leads into somewhere in your book you say
the parent who gives too much.
What does this mean and howdoes it help or harm?
Is that in what we were justtalking about or is it something
different?
Speaker 2 (42:43):
I think it's in what we were just talking about.
The parent who gives too muchis not helping a child to be
more independent unless there isan interdependence, unless that
child is also giving the parentsomething, whether it's help of
some sort.
I think interdependence iswhere, ultimately, we want to be
(43:07):
with our kids, which is thebest chance for a mutual
relationship.
Speaker 1 (43:11):
What do you mean by that?
Explain what you mean byinterdependence.
Speaker 2 (43:14):
I mean being able to call on your kids for help when
you need it.
Okay, for instance, I'm aboutto have my hip replaced.
I'm going to need my daughter,who lives in a different town,
to be here for a week.
And she said to me when wetalked about it well, of course
I'll be there, mom, but whatabout Cam, her brother?
And she said you know, justbecause he's a guy, he's just as
(43:36):
capable.
And I thought you know you'reright.
So I called my son and he saidI can be available from, you
know, five o'clock after work tonine o'clock.
Fine, good, okay, I have to ask.
They don't usually offer unlessI ask, but when I ask I feel
(43:58):
okay because they ask me whenthey need something and I ask
them when they need something.
And I think, as I get older,that interdependence is going to
be an even bigger part of ourrelationship.
Speaker 1 (44:04):
Yeah, I worry a lot about that.
Speaker 3 (44:06):
Yeah set the stage.
Speaker 2 (44:07):
I mean, none of us has kids, so there'll be
somebody to take care of us whenwe're old.
That's usually not the reason,but it's really nice to know you
can count on them to do it ifyou need to, and that comes from
having a mutually successfulrelationship when they're
younger.
So we're getting towards the endof this conversation
(44:52):
no-transcript other parents whoare going through the same
things, who are not embarrassed.
That's number one.
Number two is you probably willhear stories that will make
your problems seem much smaller.
And the other thing, I think,is to tell your closest friends.
(45:15):
I think the way to banishdisappointment and embarrassment
is to tell people.
And again, unless you feelguilty about it, and if you feel
guilty about it, the firstthing you need to do is to work
on transforming that guilt intoregret.
And when you say to a friend,you know, my kid is not doing
very well, she's got a drugproblem, he's unable to hold a
(45:38):
job, you're going to find a lotof.
You're going to hear a lot ofme too, that you didn't expect.
You're going to get empathy,not judgment, and I think for
most parents you're not going toget judgment.
You're going to get empathy.
And it's very hard to open upand it may be that all you can
open up to is, you know, yourrunning partner or one friend,
(45:59):
which is where a support group,I think, can be really, really
helpful.
Speaker 1 (46:03):
I think that's a really good idea.
A support group would be a goodidea.
Speaker 2 (46:06):
Sharing the burden is lifting it.
Speaker 1 (46:07):
Say that again the burden is lifting it.
Speaker 2 (46:10):
Yes, it lightens it, it really does.
Yeah, you know, when our kidswere young, we oftentimes raised
them in communities with othermoms especially women, yeah, so
we knew that, if he was stillwetting the bed at four, that
very few kids graduate from highschool in diapers.
(46:31):
We learned that kids developdifferently at different stages
throughout their childhood, andthat's true about adult children
too.
I mean.
There's a lot of research thatsays their brains are not fully
formed until they're 25.
Kids grow up in different waysat different times.
Your kid may be a straight-Astudent at college and unable to
(46:53):
keep his finances straight.
Your daughter may be a giftedathlete but completely unable to
deal with relationship angst,and probably in a couple of
years she won't be such a greatathlete, but she'll have had
enough bad relationships to showher what a good one is.
I mean, give your kids a chanceto grow up before you make a
(47:14):
judgment about who they are.
Speaker 3 (47:16):
I think Denise might have already asked it, but I'm
going to ask it again what arethe last two or three pieces of
advice that you would have?
And I'm going to add one, whichis kind of what you just said,
which is start talking to otherparents, about your kids, in
ways that are supportive to youand them, just like you used to
(47:37):
do when they were one.
And I think this goes awrysometime around when kids are
applying to colleges andeverybody gets so competitive,
yes, and then we never kind ofpull it back together as parents
.
Speaker 2 (48:00):
Exactly.
You know.
One good way might be, whenyour kids are out of school,
just to have a summer party andinvite all those parents that
used to parent in thecommunities and say bring your
kids who don't Brag or lie, wedon't care, just come and let's
get together again.
Speaker 1 (48:13):
The brag or lie party , if you say brag or lie
everybody will be very open.
Yeah, no, what I wanted to sayis, Jane, we end every episode
with our guests giving us two orthree takeaways, even if it's
been mentioned before that wereally hope that our listeners
will take away from this.
What are the two or threepoints you want our listeners to
take from this?
Speaker 2 (48:32):
Who they are now is different from the child you
raised.
Life has taught them lessons ortaken blows that haven't
happened to you, so you reallydon't know who they are now.
Take a few minutes and find out.
Ask some questions like whatare your dreams?
What are your expectations?
Where do you want to be in afew years?
(48:53):
Ask them, they really do wantto talk.
Often they're just waiting foran opening.
And the other thing is when youwant to give them, loan them,
support them in some way.
Really consider whether whatyou're giving or offering is
going to further theirindependence or further their
(49:13):
dependence on you.
Speaker 1 (49:15):
That's wonderful.
I think those are great closingpoints.
Jane.
We really appreciate yourjoining us today.
This has been so interesting,and it's just interesting to me
that this whole area of emergingadulthood has become such a big
deal lately.
Speaker 2 (49:29):
Well, you know, it's a relatively new phenomenon
historically speaking, because,you know, kids grew up, went to
high school and went right intothe labor market.
They didn't really have a youngadulthood.
They went from late adolescenceto adulthood without any place
in between Kids.
Today, 30 is the new 21.
Now they're taking a lot longerthan we did, it seems like, and
(49:55):
that's a cultural as well aspersonal choice.
And it's also economic andsocial.
The same guiding posts that wehad that marked adulthood,
graduation, real job, child,family or family child those
don't come in the same order anylonger.
Yeah, yeah, and some of themdon't come at all.
Speaker 1 (50:15):
Yeah Well, thank you again and good luck with your
hip replacement.
I hope it all goes reallyreally well.
Speaker 2 (50:20):
Well, I'm sure glad I have grown kids who are able to
help and willing.
Speaker 1 (50:24):
Yeah, that's right, thank you, Thank you, thank you,
okay, take care.
Thank you, listeners, forjoining us again today.
A bit of a difficult topic, butI think Jane encourages us to
get rid of any guilt we may have.
We can have regret, we all haveregrets, but guilt is what
really brings us down.
(50:45):
I remember when my kids werelittle ones, I read the book the
Good Enough Parent by childpsychologist Bruno Bettelheim.
The part I remember most isthat he said parents must not
indulge their impulse to cry tocreate the children they would
like to have, but should insteadhelp each child fully develop
(51:05):
into the person he or she wouldlike to be.
It gave me a ray of hope.
I did not have to be perfect, Ijust had to be present.
I hope you enjoyed this episodeand, as we head to the end of
our first season, I'm going toask our listeners again to send
us ideas and topics you'd likeus to discuss.
(51:25):
This is really helpful.
Also, make sure you share thisepisode or one of your favorites
with a friend so we can growand keep on producing.
Follow us on social media andgive us a review.
We appreciate that too, andremember you can visit our
website at any time for all theepisodes
biteyourtonguepodcastcom.
(51:47):
You can also email us at anytime at biteyourtonguepodcast at
gmailcom.
We'd love to hear from you.
Thanks again, thanks forlistening and remember,
sometimes you just might have tobite your tongue.
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