September 6, 2024 • 51 mins
Would you like to unlock the secrets to building deeper, more rewarding relationships with your adult children?
Join us in this BONUS episode rewind for a compelling conversation with Dr. Ruth Nemzoff, author of "Don't Bite Your Tongue: How to Foster Rewarding Relationships with Your Adult Family."
Ruth shares her invaluable insights on transitioning from a central role in your children's lives to finding a new way to connect as they gain independence. We explore the delicate balance of offering advice without alienating your adult children and the nuances of maintaining a loving and supportive relationship through thoughtful and timely communication.
We tackle the practicalities and emotional challenges of redefining relationships when adult children return home or continue living at home. Learn essential strategies for setting clear expectations, negotiating roles, and offering the right kind of support. We delve into real-life scenarios to provide actionable advice on balancing household responsibilities, encouraging independence, and fostering mutual respect. Gain a deeper understanding of evolving social norms around intergenerational living and the importance of self-awareness in navigating these new dynamics.
Finally, we venture into the realm of communication and boundaries, offering insights on how to navigate relationships with in-laws and manage family dynamics. Discover the power of open communication, humor, and positivity in diffusing tension and enhancing connections. Ruth's wisdom reminds us that while relationships are inherently imperfect, thoughtful communication and a willingness to understand different family cultures can transform friction into closeness. Tune in for personal anecdotes, practical advice, and a heartfelt discussion on maintaining harmony and intimacy within your family.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:06):
Hey everyone, it's Denise.
Today's episode is also anepisode rewind.
I hope you're enjoying some ofthese.
This one is with author RuthNesvoff.
She wrote a book Don't Biteyour Tongue how to Foster
Rewarding Relationships withyour Adult Family.
So she claims it's better notto bite your tongue.
(00:28):
She says bringing up importanttopics builds intimacy, but
there's a right and wrong way todo it.
So I hope you'll listen, evenif you've listened before, and
learn something today from Root.
Thanks everyone.
Let's get started and learnsomething today from Ruth.
Thanks everyone.
Let's get started.
(00:49):
And you've been hearing aboutletting go since you know you
sent your kid to nursery schooland they tell you to let go.
But the truth is, why would wewant to let go of our children?
We have spent more hoursworking with our kids, more
money lost, more sleep than anyjob.
Anything we've done, it'sreally taken it out of us.
(01:10):
What we really want to do istransform the relationship, and
transforming that relationshipalso involves giving them some
credit for having grown up.
So welcome to another episodeof Bite your Tongue, the podcast
.
I apologize, my voice is not sogreat today.
I've been sick not COVID, mindyou without a voice for nearly
(01:32):
three weeks.
So I'm very, very happy Ellen'swith me today.
Ellen, it's episode 40.
And last night I was thinking,okay, we're heading into episode
40, and it's taken me so longto figure something out, and I
think it was our guest's bookthat helped me figure this out.
I'm not sure the task at hand istruly building healthy
(01:53):
relationships with our adultchildren, but instead figuring
out our relevancy.
Where we sit in.
For so long we've been sorelevant, in fact actually sort
of in charge, and suddenly, asour kids become young adults,
we're no longer in charge.
They are, and we need to figureout what our role is, or maybe
(02:15):
what they want our role to be.
Do you agree with me?
What do you think about that?
Oh, completely.
I mean, I think we have tofigure out what our role is to
them.
We also have to figure out andI've said this from, I think,
our very first podcast we haveto figure out what our role is
for us.
(02:39):
Right, for maybe 18 years andanother four to six years, we
were semi-relevant a lot oftimes just because we were a
resource, either a financialresource or sometimes a resource
for a place to live for a while, but then starts to fade, and
even that part of the journey ispretty difficult too.
(03:01):
So it's particularly true whenour adult children are doing
what they're supposed to do,when they're becoming
independent, when they're doingall the things that we've wanted
them to do.
So, yeah, I think relevance isan important topic, well, and I
think our ego gets involved alittle bit.
We feel bad, we're not sorelevant.
And when you don't have a lotgoing on in the rest of the
(03:21):
other part of your life, whichyou said, developing our own
journey through older adulthoodthen you get even more anxious.
And it makes me think ofepisode 34, when we interviewed
Dr Carl Bellmer from Cornell andhe pointed out that
psychological term I'd neverheard of intergenerational state
, and it really basically meansthat the parent's investment in
(03:43):
the relationship with theiradult children is so much
greater than the children'sinvestment in that relationship.
It doesn't mean they don't loveus any less, but they're busy
building their own lives.
We've built ours, we've had ourchildren.
So, yeah, they love us, butthey don't need to talk to us
every day, they don't need toknow what we made for dinner.
You know that sort of thing,and there may be some struggle
(04:05):
and lots of ups and downs, butit doesn't mean it's not a
loving relationship.
It's just different from theone we had before.
Well, that gets us right totoday's podcast.
We named our podcast Bite yourTongue because all along, most
believe the adage bite yourtongue, loosen your purse
strings and wear beige.
Today's guest will counter allof that.
(04:26):
In fact, she believes thatbiting your tongue or silence,
doesn't build intimacy.
She says that giving advice isnot at all bad.
We just must learn to do itright so we don't alienate our
children, or that they just stoplistening to us because we're
talking too much.
So I'm excited to introduce her, because I've always wondered
how you build authenticrelationships if you're biting
(04:48):
your tongue all the time.
And even though it's a loteasier to build relationships
with friends, it's almostimpossible to know day to day
how to do this in a way that'sreally helpful to our kids.
And so today we're welcoming DrRuth Nemzoff, the author of a
book that completely contradictsthe title of our podcast not
(05:09):
the podcast itself, just thetitle.
Her book is called Don't Biteyour Tongue how to Foster
Rewarding Relationships withyour Adult Children, and it's
garnering lots of attention.
As one reviewer said, it offersparents of adult children a way
to take the bite out of whatcan be complex relationships.
Ruth is also the author ofDon't Roll your Eyes Making
(05:32):
In-Laws Into Family and is aresident scholar at Brandeis
Women's Studies Research Center.
She's also a parent of fouradult children.
Gives her a lot of credibilitywith us.
Welcome, ruth, we're gladyou're with us Well, thanks.
I like to first contradict youwhen you talk about the title of
the book.
The title of the book wasactually picked by the marketing
(05:54):
department.
As a first time author, youdon't have any choice, of course
, so I was very upset, but itturned out it sold well, so I'm
very happy.
But the truth is, the messageof the book is think about how
to say it, what to say it, whento say it.
And if I were writing it today,I'd have a whole chapter on
(06:15):
what medium to say it, becausewe have so many choices of
different ways of saying thingsand part of that meeting is
non-verb, in other words, themedium of texting, of course,
but also you can sometimescommunicate with people by as
I'm sure your friends have donefor you with chicken soup,
flowers, with chocolates, withjust actions, by just going for
(06:38):
a walk.
So actually I had to straightenthat out.
I'd also like to just relate toa couple of other things you
said, which is when I talk aboutgiving advice to children.
I think it's perfectly okay togive advice.
It's just not okay to expectthem to follow it, and you need
to make that clear to them thatthis is one idea, and I hope
(06:59):
you'll gather other ideas.
This is not only one idea.
I want you to tell you why Ithink what I think, because you
may be completely out of date,you may be completely off base
and you help them have a frameof reference how to judge your
advice.
Well, you kind of started usoff because we had a list of
questions, but now I'm going toask you this because this is top
(07:20):
of mind to me.
Sure, so you say that and Ithink with my own adult children
, I try and do that.
I might give advice and I'd saybut you know, I'm out of the
loop these days.
I don't know what the work, Ireally don't know the work
environment.
Socially, things are much morecasual.
You know all that sort of thing.
However, one of our guests saidand you might know she's from
(07:41):
New York, jane Isay, who wroteoh, I know Jane, you know, jane,
yeah, and I loved interviewingher.
And she said and I reallybelieve this when a parent
speaks, it's like a giantmegaphone, right?
So what they take, they take totheir heart.
So, even if they don't agreewith what you're saying, I'm
worried what I say they mighttake too seriously when I'm
(08:04):
completely wrong.
So I worry about giving theadvice where, even if they
disagree with me and sometimesthey'll come back with that
makes, doesn't make any sense.
Mom, blah, blah, blah, and thesame was my parents.
Yet it still stayed with me andI don't want something that I
say that's totally off the trackto stay with them.
Yeah, I have the sameexperience too, denise, that
(08:26):
it's just like sometimes I justsay something that's a joke or
something that you know oh,you're doing that.
Now I don't really care thatthey're doing that, it's just a
clog, you don't, but it soundsjudgmental.
Yeah, yeah, how do you get thatjudgmental part out of it?
Okay, well, first I want to sayyou know, we think we're more
powerful than we are and we'revery frightened of using that
(08:49):
power because we used to be allpowerful.
But it might not be a secret toyou that your kids have figured
out.
You're not all powerful, eventhough at the same time they
hear your words in high fidelity, or I guess now we'd call it
Dolby surround sound.
But at any rate they hear us.
At moments of real stress, likea wedding or a birth of a child
(09:14):
or anything like that, thatsound is so loud and is so big.
So we need, in our thinking, totake that into consideration.
Timing is always a big thing,you know.
We need to realize that thereare certain moments when things
are really loud.
Now we also have to give ourchildren some credit, for while
(09:36):
in fact they do reactemotionally, they may 10 years
later, 20 years later, 30 yearslater, see it very differently.
Years later, 20 years later, 30years later, see it very
differently.
And I'm sure all of you both ofyou and our audience out there
have things that our parentssaid to us that we thought were
horrible at the time and noweither we think they're funny or
(09:57):
very age, kind of like anantique curtain or something.
But it also might haveresonance, and I think in Don't
Bite your Tongue, I use theexample of my mother, you know,
telling me to write thank younotes, and the faster you write
your thank you note, the lessgood it has to be.
And I was, oh, mother, you know, mother.
And now I think of that all thetime.
(10:19):
I'm going to send that emailimmediately, because it doesn't
have to be as good if I waitthree months and finally have to
say something brilliant.
What do you think about thankyou notes?
Yes, I still say don't forgetto send them a thank you note.
Should I never say that?
Well, I think by now yourchildren have probably figured
out how to block it out andthey've internalized it enough.
(10:40):
So I think that the society, oneof the things we talk about, is
letting go, and you've beenhearing about letting go since
you know you sent your kid tonursery school and they tell you
to let go.
But the truth is, why would wewant to let go of our children?
We have spent more hoursworking with our kids, more
money lost, more sleep, than anyjob, anything we've done.
(11:04):
It's really taken it out of us.
What we really want to do istransform the relationship, and
transforming that relationshipalso involves giving them some
credit for having grown up andrealizing that we don't control
everything.
So I understand when you say itfeels like a loss that we aren't
(11:27):
all powerful.
It was great, you know, when wecould kiss and make that
boo-boo go away.
It was wonderful, you know howpowerful can you be, but the
truth is it gives us somefreedom also A freedom, as you
said here, to build your ownlife.
A freedom to not be responsiblefor everything they do, because
(11:48):
in fact, we aren't responsible.
There are many other forcesaffecting them than just us With
that.
So that brings me to a part ofyour book, this paragraph I
really like, where you actuallytalk about what you're talking
about now, where you know we'rea time, you're in charge and
that we need to let go.
You say letting go is not asolution.
(12:11):
It is better to craft new waysof connecting, ways that
recognize our mutual needs,including our own feelings about
being interrupted or being in aneed to develop ways of
relating to our grown-upchildren at each stage of their
maturation.
If we are not thoughtful andcareful, we can unwittingly and
gradually phase our children outof our lives, first with
(12:34):
sleepovers, eventually leavingthem at college and finally by
creating completely separatelives.
The result can be disconnectedfamilies.
Rather than letting go, let'sdevelop new ways of relating.
That's beautiful, yeah.
So here's what I want to know,though.
We get a lot of questions aboutfailure to launch.
(12:55):
You're right, we are givingyour kids credit for building
their own lives.
You came to us via Judith Smith, right, you know, judith?
She recommended you to us viaJudith Smith, right, you know,
judith?
She recommended you to us andshe wrote that wonderful book on
parenting difficult adults.
Where do you stand with that?
I mean, it's such a burden whenyour children aren't launching,
(13:15):
and how do you face that?
Do you have any advice for that?
Well, first of all, failure tolaunch it has changed
dramatically in the last threeyears.
Well, failure to launch it haschanged dramatically in the last
three years.
So up until then, if your childmoved back home in many
echelons of society or anystratus of society or various
(13:35):
groups, that was considered afailure.
Now it's considered a wiseeconomic decision because the
economy has changed.
So I think I try to give in thebook a recipe for how you go
about changing theserelationships.
And when I say a recipe, it'snot a recipe like from Gourmet
Magazine, it's a recipe from thepeasants, our forebearers.
(13:59):
In other words, you work withwhat you've got.
It's like going into the fridge, seeing what you have and
conjuring up a meal, as opposedto following you know three cups
of this and two cups of that.
So the first thing is knowingourselves, because we want to
make sure that when our kids sayto us, oh you're just doing
that so you can brag to people,they might be right and we need
(14:22):
to own that.
But secondly, we need to knowthe environment, and what is
failure to launch for one personmay not be failure to launch
for another.
So in many societies kids livewith their parents until they
marry, and it could be age 40,age 34, whatever.
That hasn't been the norm here,it may become the norm.
(14:44):
Now we began to see some of thebenefits of intergenerational
living.
Those with grandchildren becamemore involved.
Parents needed help, so I wouldsay that is in flux right now.
Another thing is trainingperiods are much longer, so your
children might, for example,have life and death
(15:04):
responsibility as, let's say, asurgical intern or a surgical
resident.
They're almost 40 years old bythe time that happens and so
they're in some ways veryindependent, but in others they
may need a little assistancefrom you financially.
So that's one kind.
Now Judith is talking aboutcases where the children are
(15:26):
truly having problems beyond thenormal storm and drama of life.
Right, but I guess how do youfigure that out when your child
even though it's the norm andthe kids in your basement living
are in their bedroom?
How do you divvy up roles andresponsibility?
They're no longer the teenagergoing to school every day.
What are your expectations andhow do you set them?
(15:48):
Oh, you are so right,absolutely.
When the kids come home, whetherfor short or long visits, but
particularly for long visits,sit down, make the deal clear.
Do you have to pay rent?
What do you have to do in termsof the minutiae of household
chores?
Right?
So can you leave the laundry inthe laundry room?
(16:11):
Do you have to take it out ofthe dryer and bring it into your
own room?
Can you leave the coffee cupsin the living room?
Whatever, you need to negotiatein advance.
What is the deal?
Are we paying in money?
Are we paying kind?
Are you expected to cook once aweek?
Are you expected to tell me ifyou're going to be home after
midnight, which very often thekids will say Mom, I'm, you know
(16:35):
, 30 years old.
I don't really care whereyou're going, I just need to
know whether I should leave thelight on or not, and I think
they can laugh with you aboutthat.
But really making the minutiaeclear is very important, and not
only that, but having a methodto look back and see is this
working, is it not?
Can you have guests in thehouse?
(16:57):
Can they be overnight guests,et cetera.
That's hard.
(17:25):
So I'm going to give you areal-life situation for my young
best, because he's sort of inbetween these two poles and I am
in a situation had madedifferent choices when he was
younger, like finishing doingall the things that I would have
suggested.
I did suggest to him that hedidn't.
So now he's in a situationwhere, you know, he's in his
late 20s, he doesn't have thejob that he wants, and it's hard
because I want to give himdirection and maybe even support
.
This is where it gets tricky,and I think I see a lot of other
(17:52):
parents in this situation wherethey have a child who's who's
launch-ish, like he's sort oflaunched, but he's not quite
successful in his eyes, not inmine.
For me, success is do I not payyour phone bill at age 30?
And that's good enough for me.
You know, if you're, if you'rereasonably happy living on your
own, but it's that sort of like.
(18:12):
How much advice do we give atthat age?
It's almost like the advice youwould give to an 18 year old in
some ways.
What would you suggest?
Oh well, first of all, I'dcongratulate him and really be
positive about he has what hehas accomplished, which is
supporting himself.
That is not a small deal thatyou can support yourself and
really let him know how proudyou are of that.
(18:34):
And if you just say, look, Iwant to talk about this, I know
you seem unhappy and if I can beof any help, I would be happy
to do it.
And then you can outline, say Ijust want to talk about it.
We don't have to talk about itmany times.
But, for example, if you want togo back to college, I want you
(18:58):
to know I will pay, I won't pay,what percentage you would pay,
or whatever.
Or you could move back home soyou could save money and you
could pay.
There are many options.
I think that's the thing withwe're so limited in yes or no.
There are many options youcould present to him and say,
look, you don't have to tell menow, we don't have to discuss it
(19:18):
again.
I just want you to know thekind of support I'm willing to
be if you decide to do that Now,one of the ways.
Also, he has many optionsbecause, you know, we think of
college, that those four years,you know, and it has to be after
high school.
In fact, we're living knowingthe environment.
We're living at a time wheremany, many options are open.
(19:39):
There are weekend colleges,there are online colleges, there
are still evening classes, youknow, and so he doesn't
necessarily have to give upbooks and just open up the
discussion in terms of themyriad of possibilities and what
your role could be if he wantsit to be, and if he doesn't,
that's OK too.
(20:00):
You know, you gave some greatadvice out here that I didn't
really think of, and I thinkthis is really good for parents.
You need to be prepared forthese conversations.
Absolutely, do your homework,like you said, like present him
with options.
Well, I've got to do somethinking about that on my own,
like what is OK for me Again,sort of like that whole idea
about we've got to figure out usand what we can tolerate, what
(20:22):
we want, you know, as well aslistening to them.
It really is a two-way street,right?
That's exactly what the pointof the whole book is that
relationships are between peopleand there are two people
involved and you can't diss oneor the other.
The idea of silencing the parentdoesn't make sense, nor
silencing the child.
The idea of silencing theparent doesn't make sense, nor
(20:43):
silencing the child.
Yeah, exactly so, ruth.
That brings me to another pointin your book and I want to
bring something up afterwards.
But you talk about parentssilencing their voices and how
we want to reclaim them.
I pulled a little section outand you write Parents have lost
their own voices and need toreclaim them, as words are an
(21:07):
important element in buildingmore equal and adult
relationships with our kids.
Unsaid often puts more pressureon loved ones than what is
spoken, because the receiver ofthe silence makes his own
(21:29):
interpretation and has littlechance to correct the
misunderstanding.
Asking questions or offeringopinions that encourage
interaction, rather than makingpronouncements or remaining
silent, can be supportive of achild's independence.
Sometimes, however, if we waituntil our anger has passed,
until a moment when we can seethe other's perspective, we can
(21:52):
select words that are moreloving and calm rather than
angry or insulted.
We do this in our work livesAfter all, we do not confront
every situation at the moment itoccurs, but wait until we've
calmed down.
Every situation at the momentit occurs, but wait until we've
calmed down.
So that's about self-control.
It's about really realizingthat.
(22:12):
I know that when my daughterwalks into the room before I've
even formed the thought, she'llsay you don't like this outfit,
do you?
And she's right?
She's right, she's absolutelyright.
So our children know us.
They are brilliantpsychologists.
They recognize that raise ofthe eyebrow, that slight look,
that harm.
So instead of having themmisinterpret it there was a
(22:37):
great show on the NPR about themind and how people misinterpret
others' actions all the time.
But if you talk about it, youget a chance to see.
Maybe it has a differentmeaning.
And I want to go to what Ellensaid.
You said as long as they'repaying their phone bill, you
know you're okay, I'm not thatperson.
(22:59):
I, way down the road, is thejob going to sustain them for
the rest of their lives?
But you write a whole section onacknowledging your dreams for
yourself and for your child.
All parents have dreams fortheir children.
You know you say goodbye tofantasy and hello to reality.
Can you talk about that Ifwe're all facing that reality?
(23:21):
They were going to be presidentin second grade.
Don't you know that they weregoing to be president in second
grade?
Don't you know that?
And not to mention a terrificballet dancer and the adventure
from the next grade?
Right, exactly.
So the first thing isrecognizing our conflicting
dreams, and certainly in our ownlives we lived that.
We thought we could be thegreatest worker on earth and
(23:45):
have a fabulous career and afabulous mother, and it was
going to be easy peasy.
Well, we know how hard it wasright.
So I think it's the reality,facing the reality.
You have a child who'ssupporting themselves or not,
but living happily, maybe takingthe scenic road to adulthood,
(24:05):
but this is what you have.
And so, one of the good thingsof this, we have our
personalities.
Some of us are classful, someof us are empty, but we can work
on that.
We can say, okay, I know me,I'm thinking, oh, this guy's
going to be living on the streetbecause he lost his job
yesterday, and that may be true,but probably it's not.
(24:30):
And maybe thinking about howyou yourself first always look
to yourself, can maybe beginlooking on the positive.
I think reframing things in apositive way is one of the
greatest tools we have, and ifyour child is a good person and
be kind to others and kind toyou.
It's a pretty good thing.
(24:51):
You know, it's really hard toraise children and we have
learned a lot from that.
Yeah, yeah, it is hard to saygoodbye to those dreams, because
our children in some ways are.
We always think of them as ourgreatest creation.
This is the best thing I'veever done raising my children.
Many of us say that and then tothink that, well, this is the
(25:12):
age where we're like, they'renot going to be president, they
might not even be a CEO and theymight not want that.
In fact, you know, they startto tell us especially this
generation, I'd rather not havethat CEO job, I'd rather just
live a little bit and not dowhat you did.
So a lot of the things that wedream for them aren't happening
(25:35):
because they don't want themAbsolutely and it's a loss for
us in some way.
Well, I think you've brought upa really important thing.
So we as parents, our ego, isvery much involved with our
children.
It's like our report card.
You know, did we get an A?
But the fact of the matter iswe don't control that number one
(25:57):
and number two.
We rarely take credit for theirsuccesses.
We mostly take credit for theirfailures.
It's because of me that theydidn't get an A in exam,
forgetting that they went outall night drinking and forgot to
study.
They have some part in this,and I always find that
(26:17):
fascinating.
If I asked a group of parents,what did you do wrong with your
kids, the discussion could go onfor days.
If I asked tell me one thingyou did right, the silence is
deafening.
Why don't we beat ourselves uplike that?
I think that's absolutely true,so true, and I think and we've
discussed this in a couple otherpodcasts in a different way
(26:38):
that parents of adult childrendon't want to share their
struggles and the ego, becausethe ego's in the way.
They don't want to say you know, sammy's really struggling
because he lost his job.
The parent won't say that.
They'll say I'm so proud andit's now been promoted to X, y
or Z.
They won't ask for advice fromfriends on how to help their
adult kid because they'reembarrassed.
Okay, so let me say that's oneof the reasons we're quiet.
(27:01):
The other reason is because outof respect for our children.
So it's true too.
That's when, when the kids werelittle and we were in my day we
had the coffee clutch, I thinkyour people, yeah.
And we had play groups.
Okay, play you.
You're in the play group andyou say you know I'm having
trouble, johnny won't let go ofhis bottle.
We talk about that and partlybecause that whole struggle of
(27:24):
whether drinking the with thebottle or the cup is universal
and also we're trying to figureit out.
But now we have to respect ourchildren's privacy, so that
makes it a little bit morecomplicated.
That's true, it isn't just thatwe're trying to portray to the
world an image, but why is thereso much dragging?
(27:46):
I feel like I go to a dinner andthe first thing people say is
how's Katie and Charlie, orhow's their living Wonderful?
What you know?
They're great, but I try not togo into too many specifics.
When they're still living here,are they still doing this?
No, I don't know where to gofrom there.
And then the question is areyou nervous because of them or
because of you, because you areafraid you'll be judged?
(28:07):
That is a very interestingquestion.
We always have to look atourselves first.
What is it that troubles usabout our friends asking?
Some people are asking out ofgenuine love for your kids, and
you would probably have adifferent reaction than with
some casual person who was, youknow, you met in a football game
in sixth grade.
(28:28):
Definitely, again, it's therelationship of the conversation
, and perhaps it's appropriate,with that person who you're not
close with when they're askingabout your kids, to be a little
bit.
Oh, they're doing great.
Yeah, you're absolutely right.
With people that are close tome, I don't mind Right as much.
Their lives are down as flow.
No one's getting married, noone's having a baby, no one's
(28:48):
changing jobs.
It's not about me or them, Ijust don't have much to offer.
Well, first of all, that's trueand perhaps that's appropriate.
But it's also true that, on theone hand, you are right no
one's getting married unless youmiss the invitation.
So what?
And don't laugh about that,because we are no longer always
(29:11):
invited to the wedding You'reright and anyway.
So when a lot is happening intheir lives, because life is
made up of lots of littleeveryday things, and one of the
things I say to parents is don'tmake every conversation a big
conversation.
The way we relate to people isthrough the dailiness of life.
(29:31):
You know, when life didn't turn, I was so frustrated, I was
late.
You know, it's the little teenythings, and that's a wonderful
way to relate to your kids, tostart relating to kids.
Just don't think you enjoydoing.
And I think, if you look on yourrelationships, we've had a lot
of experience.
We've changed our relationshipfrom the baby to the toddler,
(29:54):
right, we no longer carry kidsaround, we let them walk all the
way to the other side of theroom and eventually cross the
street and so forth.
So we've learned how to takethe relationship and build it
and then gradually, we let them,you know, cross the main
streets and go off on their own.
We also have had experiences inour volunteer life, working
(30:15):
with other people in thecommunity, some of whom we liked
, some of whom we didn't like.
And how about at work?
We've worked with a lot ofpeople.
So, whether it's paid or unpaid, we have learned some lessons
in building relationships andalso with friends.
How do you build a newfriendship?
Okay, you meet a person, youstart talking, you find things
(30:35):
in common, right?
Oh, you've been to Philly.
I was in Philly once, right?
Did you go to the Barnes Museum?
Oh, you went down toRittenhouse Square.
I was once there.
Tell me about it, right?
So that's how you begin tobuild a relationship on little
nothings.
So we're almost starting fromscratch.
Go ahead, ellen.
What's interesting is that asadults, we approach other adults
(30:59):
with children first with askingabout their children.
Do you know what I mean Like inthat conversation?
Why do we do that?
Why don't I ask you what'sgoing on for you?
Not what's going on with yourchildren, but what's going on?
I just feel like we need to putour own sort of self out there
and be asking questions of eachother about our own lives, even
(31:22):
if we're not doing anything.
What about our inner lives?
This is a really interestingtime of life to grow old, and
that's a great way to shift thediscussion.
You know my kids are great.
You know all's going well there, and I will tell you what I'm
doing.
I'm really excited about thispodcast I'm running and so forth
, but I would say some of thatis quite gendered and ageist in
(31:45):
that you know they'll ask themen how's work going?
How's your golf game Exactly?
How's retirement if they're notworking?
One of the things I notice nowthat my hair has turned gray, I
say to young people you know Igot this for free, that you have
to pay for.
You know now that gray is thefashion that's for young people.
(32:05):
I notice people are afraid tosay to me what are you doing
these days, because they don'tknow if I retire, if I don't.
I think it's looking atpeople's effort to communicate
rather than the words they say,and just taking it as I'm trying
to just connect with you andhelp them connect.
(32:26):
You know we can help by tellingthem something about ourselves
and asking about them.
Yeah, absolutely yeah.
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(34:10):
Let's get back to today'sepisode.
The thing I wanted to bring upwas and I love this part of your
book.
I'm sure you can talk a lotabout it intimacy and irritation
go hand in hand.
Oh, my favorite.
I have been a strong proponentof this.
Sometimes my daughter and Iwill argue about something, to
(34:32):
the point that both of us willbe in tears and we hug each
other at the end and I say thisis what brings us closer,
absolutely.
I mean, I think anyone who hashad a relationship knows how
intimacy and irritation go handin hand.
I mean the famous example ofthe toothpaste cap.
You know being on or off, doyou leave the dishes in the sink
(34:54):
, do you not?
It's all the small things youknow, we get to know each other.
To say, do you not?
It's all the small things youknow, we get to know each other.
But it's also talking about thedifficult things and I think
that's don't bite your tonguewhere sometimes and I want you
to talk about this you say it'svery important for the parent.
I know you have to pick theright time and have the tools
and all of that, but don't siton it.
(35:15):
Talk about it.
Yes, sometimes, if you're really, really hurting, you can say to
the child I need to talk aboutthis because it's bothering me
and be clear on that.
And sometimes you can say tothe child I'm going to say it
once, I need you to know thatyou have heard this and then I'm
not going to bring it up again.
So this is often true withvarious habits, whether it's
(35:38):
smoking, eating, you know,whatever.
If you think you're the firstperson to say to your child
you're overweight, and, ofcourse, what is overweight.
But you can say I worry aboutyour health, I want you to know
that, and then you really haveto not say it again.
That's my biggest problem.
Yes, for all of us.
And your body language willcome into account, right,
(36:00):
because even if you don't say it, are you sure you want that
second mindset, right?
Exactly, that's saying it in adifferent way.
Yes, so I have a question thatgoes to this intimacy and
irritation, which I love as well.
You have some thoughts aboutvisits, long and short visits,
and I'm really interestedbecause that sort of gets into
(36:21):
that area as well.
I'm also trying to figure outwhat's the perfect length of
time for me to visit a child wholives out of town, what I have
Denise to stay with when I visitmy son who lives in Denver.
But if I didn't have that, whatwould be?
And even if you do like, whatkind of guidelines do you have?
Well, first of all, there is noperfect.
(36:42):
I mean relationships areimperfect.
Right, I love my children, Ilove my husband, but that
doesn't mean that it's alwaysperfect.
So let's forget perfect, andthen let's also talk about
different stages of life.
Let's also talk about differentstages of life, so it's not
just what's perfect for them,but what's perfect for you and
(37:04):
what's perfect at the moment intheir lives.
Very good advice.
Yes, I want to talk about cominghome for short visits.
So very often it's aroundholidays.
Well, holidays are fraught withexpectations.
One of the ways we relate is byrecalling old times, and at
first it's wonderful and yourkids will come back and they'll
begin teasing each other likethey used to, and then suddenly
(37:28):
that teasing is no longerappropriate and they feel put
upon the baby, for example.
You know, the baby may now bevery successful or very not
successful, but either way, andwhatever success means, but
either way, they don't want tobe frozen in that time.
So when your kids come home, onthe one hand they're guests, On
(37:50):
the other hand they're residents.
This is their home, and so it'sa confusing role, and we also
do.
We treat them as guests.
No, many of us expect help andwe can ask for it.
Can you set the table?
You know that sort of thing.
So for coming home for shortterms is very different than
(38:11):
coming home for long periods,where you really need to
negotiate all the small detailsof living.
And what about when we visitthem?
How do we negotiate that andnot be that overbearing, mother
Right?
There are many ways, but onething I can say that's helpful
is the rule my rules, my house,your rules, your house.
(38:32):
But even in that they may throwtheir dirty laundry on the
floor.
You don't have to do that.
Even in that you know they maythrow their dirty laundry on the
floor, you don't have to dothat.
You can do what you want withyour dirty laundry, in the sense
of just putting it in yoursuitcase or whatever you do.
So I was having dinner lastnight with a friend and this
actually came up, and theirdaughter lives in a different
town and he said she's just aterrible housekeeper.
(38:55):
I go and I just clean the housefrom top to bottom.
And when she picked me up atthe airport, the car was just
packed with junk and I said Ihave time to get the car washed.
If I came into my kid's houseand started cleaning because
they know I need everythingcleaned too I think they would
be upset.
I'm not sure I would do that?
Well, I want to say it Adepends on the relationship, but
(39:17):
it also depends on stage oflife.
And in Dope, I want to say it Adepends on the relationship,
but it also depends on stage oflife.
And in Don't Bind your Time.
I talk about that.
When I was young, when I wasfirst married, my mother-in-law
would feel my freezer and I wasdeeply insulted this was before
the women's movement and I waslike you don't think I could
take care of your son, theprince, I might say Right.
(39:38):
Then, many years later, well,law had changed.
I was in graduate school, I hadthree kids, I was working.
Also, the society has changed.
It was no longer theexpectation that the way I take
care of my husband was by makingbrownies for him, right, and
then she would feel my freezerand she didn't change her
(39:59):
behavior at all.
What changed was me and thesociety.
And I was like thank you somuch, thank you so much, you
know.
So, understanding the timing ofit all and also asking I mean,
if you want to come in my houseand clean, you are welcome.
I mean, I really feel aboutthat.
I've gone to Ellen's house andcleaned and my house and clean,
you are welcome.
(40:19):
I mean I nearly fail about.
I've gone to Ellen's house andclean and my house is clean, by
the way, but that just I mean itdoes sort of well.
No, no, no, no.
But when you were in your bighouse, I cleaned the kids staff.
I don't like clutter and I loveto clean.
I know, and I grew and mydaughter actually went, wrote a
um essay about me cleaning thebathroom.
It didn't bother me at all, butI was the sort of mother.
That's the kid's bathroom.
(40:40):
You can do what you want withit.
We'll clean the tub and thetoilet once or twice a month,
but otherwise you can dowhatever you want with all your
stuff in there.
And it would be actually nicer.
When Denise came, they evenappreciated it.
No, they did, it was great,yeah.
What I think this points out isthey're both very good lessons
(41:02):
in mothering.
One lesson is to clean.
I wish I had been able to teachmy children that it's a
wonderful thing to be organized.
Thank God my sister could teachthem that, because I couldn't.
But the other is the idea thisis your nest and you are
responsible for it in any wayyou want.
(41:23):
They're both different ways ofparenting and they're very good
ways both of them, and we allknow that no matter which one
you use, the kids may turn outdifferently.
I mean, they're going to dowhat they want to do.
You know they're like here'sthe best I can offer, now go
figure it out for yourself, andthey do.
In either case, there's not areal danger.
(41:44):
I mean, we can catastrophizethat they're going to die in
some great bacterial infectionor whatever, but most of us
don't because we left a ringaround the top.
So, really thinking about, dothese things matter in the great
scheme of lives?
But, by the way, denise, pleasecome tomorrow.
Yeah, you have a closet, I loveclosets.
(42:08):
Okay, this is something thatresonated with me in your book,
a story that you shared, and Iwant to tell our listeners.
The book is so wonderful andshe shares lots of stories that
I think all of you will resonatewith and say, oh my gosh, this
is me.
And then she helps youunderstand typically and correct
me if I'm wrong it's about ourbehavior, changing our behavior,
(42:29):
because we can't change theirs.
Well, it's changing ourbehavior.
It's working to know theenvironment, to really
understand how things arechanging, and you do that, could
do it by reading.
You could do it by observing,you can do it by talking with
people, and the way you knowyourself is, in part, by playing
(42:51):
audience to your performance inlife.
In other words, notice whatthings were on your kids.
Sometimes we need a trustedadvisor, like maybe one of you,
you know.
You'd say, I had thisinteraction with my child that
just didn't go well.
And you can ask a trustedfriend.
Sometimes it's your spouse,sometimes it's your significant
(43:12):
other and sometimes it's not.
It's a friend who candispassionately help you see
your behavior.
And then, finally, this idea ofdealing with what you've got
instead of fantasizing thatyou're dealing with Einstein and
President Dix-O.
So this story was your adultchild moves into a new place
yeah, and you can't wait to seeit.
(43:32):
And in your story, when the momarrived and she was an interior
designer, the first thing shesaid and she didn't designer,
the first thing she said and shedidn't mean it by anything she
said the living room's a bitsmall.
The child went into.
Can you say that about blah,blah, blah, blah, blah?
I'm going to tell you a story.
My daughter rented a place, herfirst home, together with her
(43:53):
fiance, and it was lovely.
I loved the way it was separate.
I loved everything about it, itwas wonderful.
But it had one of those sinksthe older sinks that had a lip.
You know, nowadays you can takeyour crumbs and put it right in
.
So I was washing dishes and Isaid, oh, this is one of the
older sinks I love.
Now they make them.
That you can.
She got so upset that I wasinsulting her kitchen, and it
(44:17):
was just a statement.
So so upset that I wasinsulting her kitchen and it was
just a statement.
So do I never say anything?
Do I bite my tongue?
What's the situation For amother who just said oh, your
living room's a little small?
Well, first of all, we have tobe sure that we would say that
to a friend too.
I would have said that to afriend.
She would, denise wouldAbsolutely Okay.
And then the other thing is,when she does get upset, you can
(44:40):
make a joke out of it.
Okay, that's one option.
Another was to say oh, honey, Ilove this place.
So I think there were just manyways to handle it and say honey
, I really did not mean to hurtyour feelings.
Well, and in your situation, themother spoke and the daughter
said why do you always voiceyour opinion Right.
And the mother said I see thesituation, I verbalize it.
(45:02):
And they both started laughingbecause they realized that this
mother, just that was what shedid and she did it with everyone
.
And the daughter had at thatmoment the insight that oh yeah,
my mother does that and itdoesn't matter.
And it became a joke betweenthem and it was like a signal
(45:23):
this is not important, I'm justtalking Verbal.
I say it right.
I'm either talking to my, Ijust think I'm talking to myself
.
We just often have many moreoptions of how we say things.
You know, we have Shula, wehave avoidance, we have do it
later, we have talk about it nowdifferent options that we can
(45:44):
use and we always forget that wehave so many options.
And the nice thing about yourold children is you have been
arguing with these kids from dayone.
Right, should I put on theright shoe or the left shoe?
Eat your peas, whatever.
You're able to develop arelationship because of that
Over the years, you know youwill survive.
What makes it tricky with in-lawchildren is that you haven't
(46:06):
had years of arguing and makingup.
Do you agree that you need tobite your tongue more with the
in-law children.
I think you need to be aware ofhow every family has its own
culture and that what happens inone family may be viewed as,
and that what happens in onefamily may be viewed as a no-no
in another.
For example, in some familiesthe family always assumed that
(46:27):
the whole extended family wouldget together at Christmas or go
on a vacation together.
In other families that's nottrue.
In some families you walk inand you hug everyone.
In other families you don't.
But in a situation where youwalk in and you hug everyone In
other families, you don't.
But in a situation where youhave an issue with your
son-in-law or daughter-in-law,would you say it's better to
bite your tongue with them andtalk to your own child about it,
(46:47):
or do you still thinkirritation enables intimacy?
I think intimacy and irritationgo hand in hand and you think
about it and you think about howshould I say it, what should I
say it?
Hand in hand and you thinkabout it and you think about how
should I say it, what should Isay it?
I have a description in Don'tBite your Tongue of how my
mother-in-law confronted it withme.
She just asked me outright Ruth, I don't think our relationship
(47:09):
is as close as I'd like it tobe.
How could I change?
And I was so impressed with hercourage to ask me that I
answered.
What did you say?
I said well, I have manytalents and housekeeping is not
one of my talents and I don'tenjoy being criticized about it.
(47:30):
And she never criticized meagain.
That's wonderful.
So I mean, that was just.
I just was stunned by hercoverage.
So, before we close, ruth, isthere anything that we haven't
asked, that you want to tell usabout and that we can tell our
listeners?
Well, I'd like to read the lastsentence of the book.
Okay, because to me it's reallythe gold of relationships.
(47:51):
All human relationships areambivalent.
The only complete relations arethose in which hostility can be
expressed and the relationshipmaintained.
It's beautiful, and I think ifyou think of your best friend
from first grade, if you thinkof your significant others,
that's probably true, you know.
(48:12):
So that's what our goal is.
Our goal is not sugar and spiceand everything nice.
That's a fantasy.
Before we close although youkind of did this, but I don't
want to leave it out you alwaysask our guests to tell us two
things.
You want to leave with ourlisteners.
What would those two pieces ofadvice be for our listeners?
(48:35):
Okay, I actually would say thatwe have many more tools than we
know we have.
So I want you to reframe, putthings in the positive.
So if you are always, or evensometime, thinking of the worst,
try to put it in the positive,because most things have a good
side to it.
I would also advise you tothink good thoughts, not bad.
(48:58):
In other words, interpretthings in a good way.
For example, let's say you're atthe house and your child clears
the coffee cup.
They may be wanting to run thedishwasher, not be trying to
kick you out of the house.
So don't always put a bad spinon things.
Just bring all the wonderfulthings you've learned in life to
this relationship.
(49:19):
Such great advice, terrific,really great advice.
Just bring all the wonderfulthings you've learned in life to
this relationship.
Such great advice, terrific,really great advice, and I'm
going to take the piece that I'mgoing to take.
That you didn't say is work withwhat you have.
Oh, yes, that is so important Ilove that metaphor that it's a
recipe made out of what'salready in the refrigerator.
Right, our favorite things inthe cabinet, and we've got to
(49:41):
work with that Right?
Well, in many respects.
I hope that some of the adultchildren listen to this podcast
because it sums up our role andtheir role in some ways,
realizing that they have to dealwith what we have.
Oh true, I love it when adultchildren come to my talks,
because we all hear someoneelse's children better than our
own Absolutely, and they hearsomeone else's mother better
(50:03):
than their own.
Yes, it's terrific.
So, Ruth, thank you so much forjoining us today.
This was terrific.
We loved it.
I enjoyed it too.
I learned so much.
Thank you so much.
Great, and I've got to figureout.
We can't change the name of ourpodcast.
We so much Great, and I've gotto figure out.
We can't change the name of ourpodcast.
(50:24):
We just have to realize thatyou don't have to bite your
tongue.
You just have to work with whatyou have.
Yes, and maybe you need to chewon it a little.
Yeah, chew on it, perfect, allright.
Thank you so much.
So that's a wrap.
What an insightful woman.
Thank you so much, ruth, thoughEllen and I talked a bit.
Should we change the name ofour podcast?
I think not.
What Ruth is really saying isyes, we should bite our tongues
(50:47):
Initially, that is, but thinkthrough things, change our
approaches and maybe try againwhen the time is right.
I agree with her it's notalways a good idea to avoid
important subjects.
Remember, as she says, and Icertainly agree, silence does
not build intimacy.
Thanks to all of you forlistening.
(51:07):
Please check out our website,follow us on your favorite
podcast platforms and follow uson all our social media
platforms.
We really, really appreciate it.
A huge thank you to ConnieGord-Fisher, our audio engineer.
And remember, there are manycases you may need to bite your
tongue, at least for a while.
Hey everyone, it's Denise.
Today's episode is also anepisode rewind.
I hope you're enjoying some ofthese.
This one is with author RuthNesvoff.
She wrote a book Don't Biteyour Tongue how to Foster
Rewarding Relationships withyour Adult Family.
So she claims it's better notto bite your tongue.
(00:28):
She says bringing up importanttopics builds intimacy, but
there's a right and wrong way todo it.
So I hope you'll listen, evenif you've listened before, and
learn something today from Root.
Thanks everyone.
Let's get started and learnsomething today from Ruth.
Thanks everyone.
Let's get started.
(00:49):
And you've been hearing aboutletting go since you know you
sent your kid to nursery schooland they tell you to let go.
But the truth is, why would wewant to let go of our children?
We have spent more hoursworking with our kids, more
money lost, more sleep than anyjob.
Anything we've done, it'sreally taken it out of us.
(01:10):
What we really want to do istransform the relationship, and
transforming that relationshipalso involves giving them some
credit for having grown up.
So welcome to another episodeof Bite your Tongue, the podcast
.
I apologize, my voice is not sogreat today.
I've been sick not COVID, mindyou without a voice for nearly
(01:32):
three weeks.
So I'm very, very happy Ellen'swith me today.
Ellen, it's episode 40.
And last night I was thinking,okay, we're heading into episode
40, and it's taken me so longto figure something out, and I
think it was our guest's bookthat helped me figure this out.
I'm not sure the task at hand istruly building healthy
(01:53):
relationships with our adultchildren, but instead figuring
out our relevancy.
Where we sit in.
For so long we've been sorelevant, in fact actually sort
of in charge, and suddenly, asour kids become young adults,
we're no longer in charge.
They are, and we need to figureout what our role is, or maybe
(02:15):
what they want our role to be.
Do you agree with me?
What do you think about that?
Oh, completely.
I mean, I think we have tofigure out what our role is to
them.
We also have to figure out andI've said this from, I think,
our very first podcast we haveto figure out what our role is
for us.
(02:39):
Right, for maybe 18 years andanother four to six years, we
were semi-relevant a lot oftimes just because we were a
resource, either a financialresource or sometimes a resource
for a place to live for a while, but then starts to fade, and
even that part of the journey ispretty difficult too.
(03:01):
So it's particularly true whenour adult children are doing
what they're supposed to do,when they're becoming
independent, when they're doingall the things that we've wanted
them to do.
So, yeah, I think relevance isan important topic, well, and I
think our ego gets involved alittle bit.
We feel bad, we're not sorelevant.
And when you don't have a lotgoing on in the rest of the
(03:21):
other part of your life, whichyou said, developing our own
journey through older adulthoodthen you get even more anxious.
And it makes me think ofepisode 34, when we interviewed
Dr Carl Bellmer from Cornell andhe pointed out that
psychological term I'd neverheard of intergenerational state
, and it really basically meansthat the parent's investment in
(03:43):
the relationship with theiradult children is so much
greater than the children'sinvestment in that relationship.
It doesn't mean they don't loveus any less, but they're busy
building their own lives.
We've built ours, we've had ourchildren.
So, yeah, they love us, butthey don't need to talk to us
every day, they don't need toknow what we made for dinner.
You know that sort of thing,and there may be some struggle
(04:05):
and lots of ups and downs, butit doesn't mean it's not a
loving relationship.
It's just different from theone we had before.
Well, that gets us right totoday's podcast.
We named our podcast Bite yourTongue because all along, most
believe the adage bite yourtongue, loosen your purse
strings and wear beige.
Today's guest will counter allof that.
(04:26):
In fact, she believes thatbiting your tongue or silence,
doesn't build intimacy.
She says that giving advice isnot at all bad.
We just must learn to do itright so we don't alienate our
children, or that they just stoplistening to us because we're
talking too much.
So I'm excited to introduce her, because I've always wondered
how you build authenticrelationships if you're biting
(04:48):
your tongue all the time.
And even though it's a loteasier to build relationships
with friends, it's almostimpossible to know day to day
how to do this in a way that'sreally helpful to our kids.
And so today we're welcoming DrRuth Nemzoff, the author of a
book that completely contradictsthe title of our podcast not
(05:09):
the podcast itself, just thetitle.
Her book is called Don't Biteyour Tongue how to Foster
Rewarding Relationships withyour Adult Children, and it's
garnering lots of attention.
As one reviewer said, it offersparents of adult children a way
to take the bite out of whatcan be complex relationships.
Ruth is also the author ofDon't Roll your Eyes Making
(05:32):
In-Laws Into Family and is aresident scholar at Brandeis
Women's Studies Research Center.
She's also a parent of fouradult children.
Gives her a lot of credibilitywith us.
Welcome, ruth, we're gladyou're with us Well, thanks.
I like to first contradict youwhen you talk about the title of
the book.
The title of the book wasactually picked by the marketing
(05:54):
department.
As a first time author, youdon't have any choice, of course
, so I was very upset, but itturned out it sold well, so I'm
very happy.
But the truth is, the messageof the book is think about how
to say it, what to say it, whento say it.
And if I were writing it today,I'd have a whole chapter on
(06:15):
what medium to say it, becausewe have so many choices of
different ways of saying thingsand part of that meeting is
non-verb, in other words, themedium of texting, of course,
but also you can sometimescommunicate with people by as
I'm sure your friends have donefor you with chicken soup,
flowers, with chocolates, withjust actions, by just going for
(06:38):
a walk.
So actually I had to straightenthat out.
I'd also like to just relate toa couple of other things you
said, which is when I talk aboutgiving advice to children.
I think it's perfectly okay togive advice.
It's just not okay to expectthem to follow it, and you need
to make that clear to them thatthis is one idea, and I hope
(06:59):
you'll gather other ideas.
This is not only one idea.
I want you to tell you why Ithink what I think, because you
may be completely out of date,you may be completely off base
and you help them have a frameof reference how to judge your
advice.
Well, you kind of started usoff because we had a list of
questions, but now I'm going toask you this because this is top
(07:20):
of mind to me.
Sure, so you say that and Ithink with my own adult children
, I try and do that.
I might give advice and I'd saybut you know, I'm out of the
loop these days.
I don't know what the work, Ireally don't know the work
environment.
Socially, things are much morecasual.
You know all that sort of thing.
However, one of our guests saidand you might know she's from
(07:41):
New York, jane Isay, who wroteoh, I know Jane, you know, jane,
yeah, and I loved interviewingher.
And she said and I reallybelieve this when a parent
speaks, it's like a giantmegaphone, right?
So what they take, they take totheir heart.
So, even if they don't agreewith what you're saying, I'm
worried what I say they mighttake too seriously when I'm
(08:04):
completely wrong.
So I worry about giving theadvice where, even if they
disagree with me and sometimesthey'll come back with that
makes, doesn't make any sense.
Mom, blah, blah, blah, and thesame was my parents.
Yet it still stayed with me andI don't want something that I
say that's totally off the trackto stay with them.
Yeah, I have the sameexperience too, denise, that
(08:26):
it's just like sometimes I justsay something that's a joke or
something that you know oh,you're doing that.
Now I don't really care thatthey're doing that, it's just a
clog, you don't, but it soundsjudgmental.
Yeah, yeah, how do you get thatjudgmental part out of it?
Okay, well, first I want to sayyou know, we think we're more
powerful than we are and we'revery frightened of using that
(08:49):
power because we used to be allpowerful.
But it might not be a secret toyou that your kids have figured
out.
You're not all powerful, eventhough at the same time they
hear your words in high fidelity, or I guess now we'd call it
Dolby surround sound.
But at any rate they hear us.
At moments of real stress, likea wedding or a birth of a child
(09:14):
or anything like that, thatsound is so loud and is so big.
So we need, in our thinking, totake that into consideration.
Timing is always a big thing,you know.
We need to realize that thereare certain moments when things
are really loud.
Now we also have to give ourchildren some credit, for while
(09:36):
in fact they do reactemotionally, they may 10 years
later, 20 years later, 30 yearslater, see it very differently.
Years later, 20 years later, 30years later, see it very
differently.
And I'm sure all of you both ofyou and our audience out there
have things that our parentssaid to us that we thought were
horrible at the time and noweither we think they're funny or
(09:57):
very age, kind of like anantique curtain or something.
But it also might haveresonance, and I think in Don't
Bite your Tongue, I use theexample of my mother, you know,
telling me to write thank younotes, and the faster you write
your thank you note, the lessgood it has to be.
And I was, oh, mother, you know, mother.
And now I think of that all thetime.
(10:19):
I'm going to send that emailimmediately, because it doesn't
have to be as good if I waitthree months and finally have to
say something brilliant.
What do you think about thankyou notes?
Yes, I still say don't forgetto send them a thank you note.
Should I never say that?
Well, I think by now yourchildren have probably figured
out how to block it out andthey've internalized it enough.
(10:40):
So I think that the society, oneof the things we talk about, is
letting go, and you've beenhearing about letting go since
you know you sent your kid tonursery school and they tell you
to let go.
But the truth is, why would wewant to let go of our children?
We have spent more hoursworking with our kids, more
money lost, more sleep, than anyjob, anything we've done.
(11:04):
It's really taken it out of us.
What we really want to do istransform the relationship, and
transforming that relationshipalso involves giving them some
credit for having grown up andrealizing that we don't control
everything.
So I understand when you say itfeels like a loss that we aren't
(11:27):
all powerful.
It was great, you know, when wecould kiss and make that
boo-boo go away.
It was wonderful, you know howpowerful can you be, but the
truth is it gives us somefreedom also A freedom, as you
said here, to build your ownlife.
A freedom to not be responsiblefor everything they do, because
(11:48):
in fact, we aren't responsible.
There are many other forcesaffecting them than just us With
that.
So that brings me to a part ofyour book, this paragraph I
really like, where you actuallytalk about what you're talking
about now, where you know we'rea time, you're in charge and
that we need to let go.
You say letting go is not asolution.
(12:11):
It is better to craft new waysof connecting, ways that
recognize our mutual needs,including our own feelings about
being interrupted or being in aneed to develop ways of
relating to our grown-upchildren at each stage of their
maturation.
If we are not thoughtful andcareful, we can unwittingly and
gradually phase our children outof our lives, first with
(12:34):
sleepovers, eventually leavingthem at college and finally by
creating completely separatelives.
The result can be disconnectedfamilies.
Rather than letting go, let'sdevelop new ways of relating.
That's beautiful, yeah.
So here's what I want to know,though.
We get a lot of questions aboutfailure to launch.
(12:55):
You're right, we are givingyour kids credit for building
their own lives.
You came to us via Judith Smith, right, you know, judith?
She recommended you to us viaJudith Smith, right, you know,
judith?
She recommended you to us andshe wrote that wonderful book on
parenting difficult adults.
Where do you stand with that?
I mean, it's such a burden whenyour children aren't launching,
(13:15):
and how do you face that?
Do you have any advice for that?
Well, first of all, failure tolaunch it has changed
dramatically in the last threeyears.
Well, failure to launch it haschanged dramatically in the last
three years.
So up until then, if your childmoved back home in many
echelons of society or anystratus of society or various
(13:35):
groups, that was considered afailure.
Now it's considered a wiseeconomic decision because the
economy has changed.
So I think I try to give in thebook a recipe for how you go
about changing theserelationships.
And when I say a recipe, it'snot a recipe like from Gourmet
Magazine, it's a recipe from thepeasants, our forebearers.
(13:59):
In other words, you work withwhat you've got.
It's like going into the fridge, seeing what you have and
conjuring up a meal, as opposedto following you know three cups
of this and two cups of that.
So the first thing is knowingourselves, because we want to
make sure that when our kids sayto us, oh you're just doing
that so you can brag to people,they might be right and we need
(14:22):
to own that.
But secondly, we need to knowthe environment, and what is
failure to launch for one personmay not be failure to launch
for another.
So in many societies kids livewith their parents until they
marry, and it could be age 40,age 34, whatever.
That hasn't been the norm here,it may become the norm.
(14:44):
Now we began to see some of thebenefits of intergenerational
living.
Those with grandchildren becamemore involved.
Parents needed help, so I wouldsay that is in flux right now.
Another thing is trainingperiods are much longer, so your
children might, for example,have life and death
(15:04):
responsibility as, let's say, asurgical intern or a surgical
resident.
They're almost 40 years old bythe time that happens and so
they're in some ways veryindependent, but in others they
may need a little assistancefrom you financially.
So that's one kind.
Now Judith is talking aboutcases where the children are
(15:26):
truly having problems beyond thenormal storm and drama of life.
Right, but I guess how do youfigure that out when your child
even though it's the norm andthe kids in your basement living
are in their bedroom?
How do you divvy up roles andresponsibility?
They're no longer the teenagergoing to school every day.
What are your expectations andhow do you set them?
(15:48):
Oh, you are so right,absolutely.
When the kids come home, whetherfor short or long visits, but
particularly for long visits,sit down, make the deal clear.
Do you have to pay rent?
What do you have to do in termsof the minutiae of household
chores?
Right?
So can you leave the laundry inthe laundry room?
(16:11):
Do you have to take it out ofthe dryer and bring it into your
own room?
Can you leave the coffee cupsin the living room?
Whatever, you need to negotiatein advance.
What is the deal?
Are we paying in money?
Are we paying kind?
Are you expected to cook once aweek?
Are you expected to tell me ifyou're going to be home after
midnight, which very often thekids will say Mom, I'm, you know
(16:35):
, 30 years old.
I don't really care whereyou're going, I just need to
know whether I should leave thelight on or not, and I think
they can laugh with you aboutthat.
But really making the minutiaeclear is very important, and not
only that, but having a methodto look back and see is this
working, is it not?
Can you have guests in thehouse?
(16:57):
Can they be overnight guests,et cetera.
That's hard.
(17:25):
So I'm going to give you areal-life situation for my young
best, because he's sort of inbetween these two poles and I am
in a situation had madedifferent choices when he was
younger, like finishing doingall the things that I would have
suggested.
I did suggest to him that hedidn't.
So now he's in a situationwhere, you know, he's in his
late 20s, he doesn't have thejob that he wants, and it's hard
because I want to give himdirection and maybe even support
.
This is where it gets tricky,and I think I see a lot of other
(17:52):
parents in this situation wherethey have a child who's who's
launch-ish, like he's sort oflaunched, but he's not quite
successful in his eyes, not inmine.
For me, success is do I not payyour phone bill at age 30?
And that's good enough for me.
You know, if you're, if you'rereasonably happy living on your
own, but it's that sort of like.
(18:12):
How much advice do we give atthat age?
It's almost like the advice youwould give to an 18 year old in
some ways.
What would you suggest?
Oh well, first of all, I'dcongratulate him and really be
positive about he has what hehas accomplished, which is
supporting himself.
That is not a small deal thatyou can support yourself and
really let him know how proudyou are of that.
(18:34):
And if you just say, look, Iwant to talk about this, I know
you seem unhappy and if I can beof any help, I would be happy
to do it.
And then you can outline, say Ijust want to talk about it.
We don't have to talk about itmany times.
But, for example, if you want togo back to college, I want you
(18:58):
to know I will pay, I won't pay,what percentage you would pay,
or whatever.
Or you could move back home soyou could save money and you
could pay.
There are many options.
I think that's the thing withwe're so limited in yes or no.
There are many options youcould present to him and say,
look, you don't have to tell menow, we don't have to discuss it
(19:18):
again.
I just want you to know thekind of support I'm willing to
be if you decide to do that Now,one of the ways.
Also, he has many optionsbecause, you know, we think of
college, that those four years,you know, and it has to be after
high school.
In fact, we're living knowingthe environment.
We're living at a time wheremany, many options are open.
(19:39):
There are weekend colleges,there are online colleges, there
are still evening classes, youknow, and so he doesn't
necessarily have to give upbooks and just open up the
discussion in terms of themyriad of possibilities and what
your role could be if he wantsit to be, and if he doesn't,
that's OK too.
(20:00):
You know, you gave some greatadvice out here that I didn't
really think of, and I thinkthis is really good for parents.
You need to be prepared forthese conversations.
Absolutely, do your homework,like you said, like present him
with options.
Well, I've got to do somethinking about that on my own,
like what is OK for me Again,sort of like that whole idea
about we've got to figure out usand what we can tolerate, what
(20:22):
we want, you know, as well aslistening to them.
It really is a two-way street,right?
That's exactly what the pointof the whole book is that
relationships are between peopleand there are two people
involved and you can't diss oneor the other.
The idea of silencing the parentdoesn't make sense, nor
silencing the child.
The idea of silencing theparent doesn't make sense, nor
(20:43):
silencing the child.
Yeah, exactly so, ruth.
That brings me to another pointin your book and I want to
bring something up afterwards.
But you talk about parentssilencing their voices and how
we want to reclaim them.
I pulled a little section outand you write Parents have lost
their own voices and need toreclaim them, as words are an
(21:07):
important element in buildingmore equal and adult
relationships with our kids.
Unsaid often puts more pressureon loved ones than what is
spoken, because the receiver ofthe silence makes his own
(21:29):
interpretation and has littlechance to correct the
misunderstanding.
Asking questions or offeringopinions that encourage
interaction, rather than makingpronouncements or remaining
silent, can be supportive of achild's independence.
Sometimes, however, if we waituntil our anger has passed,
until a moment when we can seethe other's perspective, we can
(21:52):
select words that are moreloving and calm rather than
angry or insulted.
We do this in our work livesAfter all, we do not confront
every situation at the moment itoccurs, but wait until we've
calmed down.
Every situation at the momentit occurs, but wait until we've
calmed down.
So that's about self-control.
It's about really realizingthat.
(22:12):
I know that when my daughterwalks into the room before I've
even formed the thought, she'llsay you don't like this outfit,
do you?
And she's right?
She's right, she's absolutelyright.
So our children know us.
They are brilliantpsychologists.
They recognize that raise ofthe eyebrow, that slight look,
that harm.
So instead of having themmisinterpret it there was a
(22:37):
great show on the NPR about themind and how people misinterpret
others' actions all the time.
But if you talk about it, youget a chance to see.
Maybe it has a differentmeaning.
And I want to go to what Ellensaid.
You said as long as they'repaying their phone bill, you
know you're okay, I'm not thatperson.
(22:59):
I, way down the road, is thejob going to sustain them for
the rest of their lives?
But you write a whole section onacknowledging your dreams for
yourself and for your child.
All parents have dreams fortheir children.
You know you say goodbye tofantasy and hello to reality.
Can you talk about that Ifwe're all facing that reality?
(23:21):
They were going to be presidentin second grade.
Don't you know that they weregoing to be president in second
grade?
Don't you know that?
And not to mention a terrificballet dancer and the adventure
from the next grade?
Right, exactly.
So the first thing isrecognizing our conflicting
dreams, and certainly in our ownlives we lived that.
We thought we could be thegreatest worker on earth and
(23:45):
have a fabulous career and afabulous mother, and it was
going to be easy peasy.
Well, we know how hard it wasright.
So I think it's the reality,facing the reality.
You have a child who'ssupporting themselves or not,
but living happily, maybe takingthe scenic road to adulthood,
(24:05):
but this is what you have.
And so, one of the good thingsof this, we have our
personalities.
Some of us are classful, someof us are empty, but we can work
on that.
We can say, okay, I know me,I'm thinking, oh, this guy's
going to be living on the streetbecause he lost his job
yesterday, and that may be true,but probably it's not.
(24:30):
And maybe thinking about howyou yourself first always look
to yourself, can maybe beginlooking on the positive.
I think reframing things in apositive way is one of the
greatest tools we have, and ifyour child is a good person and
be kind to others and kind toyou.
It's a pretty good thing.
(24:51):
You know, it's really hard toraise children and we have
learned a lot from that.
Yeah, yeah, it is hard to saygoodbye to those dreams, because
our children in some ways are.
We always think of them as ourgreatest creation.
This is the best thing I'veever done raising my children.
Many of us say that and then tothink that, well, this is the
(25:12):
age where we're like, they'renot going to be president, they
might not even be a CEO and theymight not want that.
In fact, you know, they startto tell us especially this
generation, I'd rather not havethat CEO job, I'd rather just
live a little bit and not dowhat you did.
So a lot of the things that wedream for them aren't happening
(25:35):
because they don't want themAbsolutely and it's a loss for
us in some way.
Well, I think you've brought upa really important thing.
So we as parents, our ego, isvery much involved with our
children.
It's like our report card.
You know, did we get an A?
But the fact of the matter iswe don't control that number one
(25:57):
and number two.
We rarely take credit for theirsuccesses.
We mostly take credit for theirfailures.
It's because of me that theydidn't get an A in exam,
forgetting that they went outall night drinking and forgot to
study.
They have some part in this,and I always find that
(26:17):
fascinating.
If I asked a group of parents,what did you do wrong with your
kids, the discussion could go onfor days.
If I asked tell me one thingyou did right, the silence is
deafening.
Why don't we beat ourselves uplike that?
I think that's absolutely true,so true, and I think and we've
discussed this in a couple otherpodcasts in a different way
(26:38):
that parents of adult childrendon't want to share their
struggles and the ego, becausethe ego's in the way.
They don't want to say you know, sammy's really struggling
because he lost his job.
The parent won't say that.
They'll say I'm so proud andit's now been promoted to X, y
or Z.
They won't ask for advice fromfriends on how to help their
adult kid because they'reembarrassed.
Okay, so let me say that's oneof the reasons we're quiet.
(27:01):
The other reason is because outof respect for our children.
So it's true too.
That's when, when the kids werelittle and we were in my day we
had the coffee clutch, I thinkyour people, yeah.
And we had play groups.
Okay, play you.
You're in the play group andyou say you know I'm having
trouble, johnny won't let go ofhis bottle.
We talk about that and partlybecause that whole struggle of
(27:24):
whether drinking the with thebottle or the cup is universal
and also we're trying to figureit out.
But now we have to respect ourchildren's privacy, so that
makes it a little bit morecomplicated.
That's true, it isn't just thatwe're trying to portray to the
world an image, but why is thereso much dragging?
(27:46):
I feel like I go to a dinner andthe first thing people say is
how's Katie and Charlie, orhow's their living Wonderful?
What you know?
They're great, but I try not togo into too many specifics.
When they're still living here,are they still doing this?
No, I don't know where to gofrom there.
And then the question is areyou nervous because of them or
because of you, because you areafraid you'll be judged?
(28:07):
That is a very interestingquestion.
We always have to look atourselves first.
What is it that troubles usabout our friends asking?
Some people are asking out ofgenuine love for your kids, and
you would probably have adifferent reaction than with
some casual person who was, youknow, you met in a football game
in sixth grade.
(28:28):
Definitely, again, it's therelationship of the conversation
, and perhaps it's appropriate,with that person who you're not
close with when they're askingabout your kids, to be a little
bit.
Oh, they're doing great.
Yeah, you're absolutely right.
With people that are close tome, I don't mind Right as much.
Their lives are down as flow.
No one's getting married, noone's having a baby, no one's
(28:48):
changing jobs.
It's not about me or them, Ijust don't have much to offer.
Well, first of all, that's trueand perhaps that's appropriate.
But it's also true that, on theone hand, you are right no
one's getting married unless youmiss the invitation.
So what?
And don't laugh about that,because we are no longer always
(29:11):
invited to the wedding You'reright and anyway.
So when a lot is happening intheir lives, because life is
made up of lots of littleeveryday things, and one of the
things I say to parents is don'tmake every conversation a big
conversation.
The way we relate to people isthrough the dailiness of life.
(29:31):
You know, when life didn't turn, I was so frustrated, I was
late.
You know, it's the little teenythings, and that's a wonderful
way to relate to your kids, tostart relating to kids.
Just don't think you enjoydoing.
And I think, if you look on yourrelationships, we've had a lot
of experience.
We've changed our relationshipfrom the baby to the toddler,
(29:54):
right, we no longer carry kidsaround, we let them walk all the
way to the other side of theroom and eventually cross the
street and so forth.
So we've learned how to takethe relationship and build it
and then gradually, we let them,you know, cross the main
streets and go off on their own.
We also have had experiences inour volunteer life, working
(30:15):
with other people in thecommunity, some of whom we liked
, some of whom we didn't like.
And how about at work?
We've worked with a lot ofpeople.
So, whether it's paid or unpaid, we have learned some lessons
in building relationships andalso with friends.
How do you build a newfriendship?
Okay, you meet a person, youstart talking, you find things
(30:35):
in common, right?
Oh, you've been to Philly.
I was in Philly once, right?
Did you go to the Barnes Museum?
Oh, you went down toRittenhouse Square.
I was once there.
Tell me about it, right?
So that's how you begin tobuild a relationship on little
nothings.
So we're almost starting fromscratch.
Go ahead, ellen.
What's interesting is that asadults, we approach other adults
(30:59):
with children first with askingabout their children.
Do you know what I mean Like inthat conversation?
Why do we do that?
Why don't I ask you what'sgoing on for you?
Not what's going on with yourchildren, but what's going on?
I just feel like we need to putour own sort of self out there
and be asking questions of eachother about our own lives, even
(31:22):
if we're not doing anything.
What about our inner lives?
This is a really interestingtime of life to grow old, and
that's a great way to shift thediscussion.
You know my kids are great.
You know all's going well there, and I will tell you what I'm
doing.
I'm really excited about thispodcast I'm running and so forth
, but I would say some of thatis quite gendered and ageist in
(31:45):
that you know they'll ask themen how's work going?
How's your golf game Exactly?
How's retirement if they're notworking?
One of the things I notice nowthat my hair has turned gray, I
say to young people you know Igot this for free, that you have
to pay for.
You know now that gray is thefashion that's for young people.
(32:05):
I notice people are afraid tosay to me what are you doing
these days, because they don'tknow if I retire, if I don't.
I think it's looking atpeople's effort to communicate
rather than the words they say,and just taking it as I'm trying
to just connect with you andhelp them connect.
(32:26):
You know we can help by tellingthem something about ourselves
and asking about them.
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All right, everyone.
(34:10):
Let's get back to today'sepisode.
The thing I wanted to bring upwas and I love this part of your
book.
I'm sure you can talk a lotabout it intimacy and irritation
go hand in hand.
Oh, my favorite.
I have been a strong proponentof this.
Sometimes my daughter and Iwill argue about something, to
(34:32):
the point that both of us willbe in tears and we hug each
other at the end and I say thisis what brings us closer,
absolutely.
I mean, I think anyone who hashad a relationship knows how
intimacy and irritation go handin hand.
I mean the famous example ofthe toothpaste cap.
You know being on or off, doyou leave the dishes in the sink
(34:54):
, do you not?
It's all the small things youknow, we get to know each other.
To say, do you not?
It's all the small things youknow, we get to know each other.
But it's also talking about thedifficult things and I think
that's don't bite your tonguewhere sometimes and I want you
to talk about this you say it'svery important for the parent.
I know you have to pick theright time and have the tools
and all of that, but don't siton it.
(35:15):
Talk about it.
Yes, sometimes, if you're really, really hurting, you can say to
the child I need to talk aboutthis because it's bothering me
and be clear on that.
And sometimes you can say tothe child I'm going to say it
once, I need you to know thatyou have heard this and then I'm
not going to bring it up again.
So this is often true withvarious habits, whether it's
(35:38):
smoking, eating, you know,whatever.
If you think you're the firstperson to say to your child
you're overweight, and, ofcourse, what is overweight.
But you can say I worry aboutyour health, I want you to know
that, and then you really haveto not say it again.
That's my biggest problem.
Yes, for all of us.
And your body language willcome into account, right,
(36:00):
because even if you don't say it, are you sure you want that
second mindset, right?
Exactly, that's saying it in adifferent way.
Yes, so I have a question thatgoes to this intimacy and
irritation, which I love as well.
You have some thoughts aboutvisits, long and short visits,
and I'm really interestedbecause that sort of gets into
(36:21):
that area as well.
I'm also trying to figure outwhat's the perfect length of
time for me to visit a child wholives out of town, what I have
Denise to stay with when I visitmy son who lives in Denver.
But if I didn't have that, whatwould be?
And even if you do like, whatkind of guidelines do you have?
Well, first of all, there is noperfect.
(36:42):
I mean relationships areimperfect.
Right, I love my children, Ilove my husband, but that
doesn't mean that it's alwaysperfect.
So let's forget perfect, andthen let's also talk about
different stages of life.
Let's also talk about differentstages of life, so it's not
just what's perfect for them,but what's perfect for you and
(37:04):
what's perfect at the moment intheir lives.
Very good advice.
Yes, I want to talk about cominghome for short visits.
So very often it's aroundholidays.
Well, holidays are fraught withexpectations.
One of the ways we relate is byrecalling old times, and at
first it's wonderful and yourkids will come back and they'll
begin teasing each other likethey used to, and then suddenly
(37:28):
that teasing is no longerappropriate and they feel put
upon the baby, for example.
You know, the baby may now bevery successful or very not
successful, but either way, andwhatever success means, but
either way, they don't want tobe frozen in that time.
So when your kids come home, onthe one hand they're guests, On
(37:50):
the other hand they're residents.
This is their home, and so it'sa confusing role, and we also
do.
We treat them as guests.
No, many of us expect help andwe can ask for it.
Can you set the table?
You know that sort of thing.
So for coming home for shortterms is very different than
(38:11):
coming home for long periods,where you really need to
negotiate all the small detailsof living.
And what about when we visitthem?
How do we negotiate that andnot be that overbearing, mother
Right?
There are many ways, but onething I can say that's helpful
is the rule my rules, my house,your rules, your house.
(38:32):
But even in that they may throwtheir dirty laundry on the
floor.
You don't have to do that.
Even in that you know they maythrow their dirty laundry on the
floor, you don't have to dothat.
You can do what you want withyour dirty laundry, in the sense
of just putting it in yoursuitcase or whatever you do.
So I was having dinner lastnight with a friend and this
actually came up, and theirdaughter lives in a different
town and he said she's just aterrible housekeeper.
(38:55):
I go and I just clean the housefrom top to bottom.
And when she picked me up atthe airport, the car was just
packed with junk and I said Ihave time to get the car washed.
If I came into my kid's houseand started cleaning because
they know I need everythingcleaned too I think they would
be upset.
I'm not sure I would do that?
Well, I want to say it Adepends on the relationship, but
(39:17):
it also depends on stage oflife.
And in Dope, I want to say it Adepends on the relationship,
but it also depends on stage oflife.
And in Don't Bind your Time.
I talk about that.
When I was young, when I wasfirst married, my mother-in-law
would feel my freezer and I wasdeeply insulted this was before
the women's movement and I waslike you don't think I could
take care of your son, theprince, I might say Right.
(39:38):
Then, many years later, well,law had changed.
I was in graduate school, I hadthree kids, I was working.
Also, the society has changed.
It was no longer theexpectation that the way I take
care of my husband was by makingbrownies for him, right, and
then she would feel my freezerand she didn't change her
(39:59):
behavior at all.
What changed was me and thesociety.
And I was like thank you somuch, thank you so much, you
know.
So, understanding the timing ofit all and also asking I mean,
if you want to come in my houseand clean, you are welcome.
I mean, I really feel aboutthat.
I've gone to Ellen's house andcleaned and my house and clean,
you are welcome.
(40:19):
I mean I nearly fail about.
I've gone to Ellen's house andclean and my house is clean, by
the way, but that just I mean itdoes sort of well.
No, no, no, no.
But when you were in your bighouse, I cleaned the kids staff.
I don't like clutter and I loveto clean.
I know, and I grew and mydaughter actually went, wrote a
um essay about me cleaning thebathroom.
It didn't bother me at all, butI was the sort of mother.
That's the kid's bathroom.
(40:40):
You can do what you want withit.
We'll clean the tub and thetoilet once or twice a month,
but otherwise you can dowhatever you want with all your
stuff in there.
And it would be actually nicer.
When Denise came, they evenappreciated it.
No, they did, it was great,yeah.
What I think this points out isthey're both very good lessons
(41:02):
in mothering.
One lesson is to clean.
I wish I had been able to teachmy children that it's a
wonderful thing to be organized.
Thank God my sister could teachthem that, because I couldn't.
But the other is the idea thisis your nest and you are
responsible for it in any wayyou want.
(41:23):
They're both different ways ofparenting and they're very good
ways both of them, and we allknow that no matter which one
you use, the kids may turn outdifferently.
I mean, they're going to dowhat they want to do.
You know they're like here'sthe best I can offer, now go
figure it out for yourself, andthey do.
In either case, there's not areal danger.
(41:44):
I mean, we can catastrophizethat they're going to die in
some great bacterial infectionor whatever, but most of us
don't because we left a ringaround the top.
So, really thinking about, dothese things matter in the great
scheme of lives?
But, by the way, denise, pleasecome tomorrow.
Yeah, you have a closet, I loveclosets.
(42:08):
Okay, this is something thatresonated with me in your book,
a story that you shared, and Iwant to tell our listeners.
The book is so wonderful andshe shares lots of stories that
I think all of you will resonatewith and say, oh my gosh, this
is me.
And then she helps youunderstand typically and correct
me if I'm wrong it's about ourbehavior, changing our behavior,
(42:29):
because we can't change theirs.
Well, it's changing ourbehavior.
It's working to know theenvironment, to really
understand how things arechanging, and you do that, could
do it by reading.
You could do it by observing,you can do it by talking with
people, and the way you knowyourself is, in part, by playing
(42:51):
audience to your performance inlife.
In other words, notice whatthings were on your kids.
Sometimes we need a trustedadvisor, like maybe one of you,
you know.
You'd say, I had thisinteraction with my child that
just didn't go well.
And you can ask a trustedfriend.
Sometimes it's your spouse,sometimes it's your significant
(43:12):
other and sometimes it's not.
It's a friend who candispassionately help you see
your behavior.
And then, finally, this idea ofdealing with what you've got
instead of fantasizing thatyou're dealing with Einstein and
President Dix-O.
So this story was your adultchild moves into a new place
yeah, and you can't wait to seeit.
(43:32):
And in your story, when the momarrived and she was an interior
designer, the first thing shesaid and she didn't designer,
the first thing she said and shedidn't mean it by anything she
said the living room's a bitsmall.
The child went into.
Can you say that about blah,blah, blah, blah, blah?
I'm going to tell you a story.
My daughter rented a place, herfirst home, together with her
(43:53):
fiance, and it was lovely.
I loved the way it was separate.
I loved everything about it, itwas wonderful.
But it had one of those sinksthe older sinks that had a lip.
You know, nowadays you can takeyour crumbs and put it right in
.
So I was washing dishes and Isaid, oh, this is one of the
older sinks I love.
Now they make them.
That you can.
She got so upset that I wasinsulting her kitchen, and it
(44:17):
was just a statement.
So so upset that I wasinsulting her kitchen and it was
just a statement.
So do I never say anything?
Do I bite my tongue?
What's the situation For amother who just said oh, your
living room's a little small?
Well, first of all, we have tobe sure that we would say that
to a friend too.
I would have said that to afriend.
She would, denise wouldAbsolutely Okay.
And then the other thing is,when she does get upset, you can
(44:40):
make a joke out of it.
Okay, that's one option.
Another was to say oh, honey, Ilove this place.
So I think there were just manyways to handle it and say honey
, I really did not mean to hurtyour feelings.
Well, and in your situation, themother spoke and the daughter
said why do you always voiceyour opinion Right.
And the mother said I see thesituation, I verbalize it.
(45:02):
And they both started laughingbecause they realized that this
mother, just that was what shedid and she did it with everyone
.
And the daughter had at thatmoment the insight that oh yeah,
my mother does that and itdoesn't matter.
And it became a joke betweenthem and it was like a signal
(45:23):
this is not important, I'm justtalking Verbal.
I say it right.
I'm either talking to my, Ijust think I'm talking to myself
.
We just often have many moreoptions of how we say things.
You know, we have Shula, wehave avoidance, we have do it
later, we have talk about it nowdifferent options that we can
(45:44):
use and we always forget that wehave so many options.
And the nice thing about yourold children is you have been
arguing with these kids from dayone.
Right, should I put on theright shoe or the left shoe?
Eat your peas, whatever.
You're able to develop arelationship because of that
Over the years, you know youwill survive.
What makes it tricky with in-lawchildren is that you haven't
(46:06):
had years of arguing and makingup.
Do you agree that you need tobite your tongue more with the
in-law children.
I think you need to be aware ofhow every family has its own
culture and that what happens inone family may be viewed as,
and that what happens in onefamily may be viewed as a no-no
in another.
For example, in some familiesthe family always assumed that
(46:27):
the whole extended family wouldget together at Christmas or go
on a vacation together.
In other families that's nottrue.
In some families you walk inand you hug everyone.
In other families you don't.
But in a situation where youwalk in and you hug everyone In
other families, you don't.
But in a situation where youhave an issue with your
son-in-law or daughter-in-law,would you say it's better to
bite your tongue with them andtalk to your own child about it,
(46:47):
or do you still thinkirritation enables intimacy?
I think intimacy and irritationgo hand in hand and you think
about it and you think about howshould I say it, what should I
say it?
Hand in hand and you thinkabout it and you think about how
should I say it, what should Isay it?
I have a description in Don'tBite your Tongue of how my
mother-in-law confronted it withme.
She just asked me outright Ruth, I don't think our relationship
(47:09):
is as close as I'd like it tobe.
How could I change?
And I was so impressed with hercourage to ask me that I
answered.
What did you say?
I said well, I have manytalents and housekeeping is not
one of my talents and I don'tenjoy being criticized about it.
(47:30):
And she never criticized meagain.
That's wonderful.
So I mean, that was just.
I just was stunned by hercoverage.
So, before we close, ruth, isthere anything that we haven't
asked, that you want to tell usabout and that we can tell our
listeners?
Well, I'd like to read the lastsentence of the book.
Okay, because to me it's reallythe gold of relationships.
(47:51):
All human relationships areambivalent.
The only complete relations arethose in which hostility can be
expressed and the relationshipmaintained.
It's beautiful, and I think ifyou think of your best friend
from first grade, if you thinkof your significant others,
that's probably true, you know.
(48:12):
So that's what our goal is.
Our goal is not sugar and spiceand everything nice.
That's a fantasy.
Before we close although youkind of did this, but I don't
want to leave it out you alwaysask our guests to tell us two
things.
You want to leave with ourlisteners.
What would those two pieces ofadvice be for our listeners?
(48:35):
Okay, I actually would say thatwe have many more tools than we
know we have.
So I want you to reframe, putthings in the positive.
So if you are always, or evensometime, thinking of the worst,
try to put it in the positive,because most things have a good
side to it.
I would also advise you tothink good thoughts, not bad.
(48:58):
In other words, interpretthings in a good way.
For example, let's say you're atthe house and your child clears
the coffee cup.
They may be wanting to run thedishwasher, not be trying to
kick you out of the house.
So don't always put a bad spinon things.
Just bring all the wonderfulthings you've learned in life to
this relationship.
(49:19):
Such great advice, terrific,really great advice.
Just bring all the wonderfulthings you've learned in life to
this relationship.
Such great advice, terrific,really great advice, and I'm
going to take the piece that I'mgoing to take.
That you didn't say is work withwhat you have.
Oh, yes, that is so important Ilove that metaphor that it's a
recipe made out of what'salready in the refrigerator.
Right, our favorite things inthe cabinet, and we've got to
(49:41):
work with that Right?
Well, in many respects.
I hope that some of the adultchildren listen to this podcast
because it sums up our role andtheir role in some ways,
realizing that they have to dealwith what we have.
Oh true, I love it when adultchildren come to my talks,
because we all hear someoneelse's children better than our
own Absolutely, and they hearsomeone else's mother better
(50:03):
than their own.
Yes, it's terrific.
So, Ruth, thank you so much forjoining us today.
This was terrific.
We loved it.
I enjoyed it too.
I learned so much.
Thank you so much.
Great, and I've got to figureout.
We can't change the name of ourpodcast.
We so much Great, and I've gotto figure out.
We can't change the name of ourpodcast.
(50:24):
We just have to realize thatyou don't have to bite your
tongue.
You just have to work with whatyou have.
Yes, and maybe you need to chewon it a little.
Yeah, chew on it, perfect, allright.
Thank you so much.
So that's a wrap.
What an insightful woman.
Thank you so much, ruth, thoughEllen and I talked a bit.
Should we change the name ofour podcast?
I think not.
What Ruth is really saying isyes, we should bite our tongues
(50:47):
Initially, that is, but thinkthrough things, change our
approaches and maybe try againwhen the time is right.
I agree with her it's notalways a good idea to avoid
important subjects.
Remember, as she says, and Icertainly agree, silence does
not build intimacy.
Thanks to all of you forlistening.
(51:07):
Please check out our website,follow us on your favorite
podcast platforms and follow uson all our social media
platforms.
We really, really appreciate it.
A huge thank you to ConnieGord-Fisher, our audio engineer.
And remember, there are manycases you may need to bite your
tongue, at least for a while.
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