In this season we’re talking about books and discussing insights relating to business and business leadership.
There is a Wonder-Drug that makes you live longer, enhances your memory and creativity, It makes you look more attractive, slimmer and lowers food cravings. It also protects you from cancer and dementia, wards off colds and flu, and lowers your risk of strokes and heart disease. On top of that, it makes you happier, less depressed, and less anxious.
Want some?
So what is it?
The answer is: Sleep.
And in this first episode we took a look at “Why We Sleep”, by Matthew Walker.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Why-We-Sleep-Science-Dreams-ebook/dp/B06Y649387/
Ever wondered how the traditional 9-5 work schedule could be hindering productivity and overall well-being? Matthew Walker's fascinating book, "Why We Sleep," showcases key research on sleep, and the conclusions are life-changing.
Throughout the episode, we discuss how human-centered design in the workplace can optimize efficiency, support creativity, and protect mental health.
We explore the detrimental effects of poor sleep habits on businesses and the importance of sleep for consolidating learning. Learn from leaders' mistakes, like Margaret Thatcher and Ronald Reagan, and find out how you can create a work environment that promotes well-being and success.
This insightful conversation could revolutionize the way you approach work and sleep!
We'll see you on the inside...
If you'd like to contact us about this episode, please reach out! We'd be very happy to hear from you!
In Series 2 we'll be doing interviews - get in touch if you'd like to be on the show!
bizandcoffeepodcast@gmail.com
Twitter: @bizandcoffee
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Christopher (00:00):
So welcome to season three.
In this season we're talkingabout books, we're going to be
discussing insights relating tobusiness and business leadership
, and in this first episodewe're taking a look at Why We
Sleep by Matthew Walker.
So wish we start.
Ayo (00:16):
No, I mean welcome to season three as well.
I mean, and I think the onething that you haven't mentioned
is the fact that we are, forthe first time, going to be
streaming this live on YouTube.
So it's also season three isalso a bit of an experiment for
us.
Christopher (00:31):
You know anyways I mean Chris you.
Ayo (00:33):
I mean you got me onto this book and you had a lot to say
about it when you got me onto it, and so so in this episode, i'm
going to be asking you a lot ofquestions and I'll also be
sharing some of my thoughtsabout a lot of questions coming
your way.
So get ready.
I know I did tell you thisbefore we started, but you know
I thought I'd measure that Okay.
Christopher (00:52):
Brace myself.
Ayo (00:53):
Yep.
So, and my first question isyou know, if you, if you were
going to pitch this to anyone,how would you pitch it?
Christopher (01:00):
One of the key things for me was how.
The fact that, from a businessperspective, was how, by forcing
people into very specific timeslots, you decrease the
efficiency of the people whowork for you, and that decrease
could be somewhere between 40 to60%.
You know, if you've got peoplewho are morning people and they
(01:22):
come in early and they work Imean that tends to be the norm
in business people arecelebrated for showing up early.
But there are other people whowork better later in the day and
they're just not that effectiveearly in the morning.
So you just lose all thisefficiency.
So, if you can, where you cangive more flexibility and I
think the pandemic has helped inthat respect, in the lockdowns
(01:45):
helped to introduce moreflexibility into the working
environment has possibly meantthat you get more efficiency
from people choosing their owntimes to work.
It doesn't work in everysituation or in every industry.
You know, if you've got crisiscenters 24 seven operations that
have to be staffed around theclock, then you do need people
(02:05):
in those, you know to coverevery time slot.
But if you can allow people toperhaps self select into some
time slots that work best forthem and then don't keep
rotating those shifts out ofsome notion of fairness, you
know, is it fair to take someonewho's a night owl and force
them to work early in themorning?
Doesn't seem fair to me.
If there are other people whoprefer to work in the morning,
(02:28):
give them those.
The give them the morning slots, give the night elves the
evening slots and, you know, tryand even it out that way and
you'll get better effect.
You'll get more efficiency outof your workforce.
Ayo (02:37):
Yeah, no, i imagine, you know.
Yeah, that could.
That could become a bit of achallenge, you know, especially
for a business that doesn't lenditself to, maybe, shift type
work, but I did, you know.
I mean, i remember one job thatI had where there were some
folks who came in later in theday, but the reason that was
done was more for to help withlogistics and traffic, just
(03:00):
because, you know, moving duringpeak hours for some people was
a little bit difficult And thatwas why that was done.
You know, by you suggesting,for instance, as a business
leader, we know, we should maybeconsider separating our
workforce based on their I don'tknow their sleep profile.
Christopher (03:21):
Workforce?
perhaps not, but I think it's aquestion designing the business
, isn't it?
Design the business aroundhumans rather than force the
humans to fit in around thebusiness side?
You can't.
it's not an absolute, is it?
If you, if you design thebusiness and design the your
business model around humans,you will have higher engagement
(03:45):
from your staff.
you will have higher stickiness.
they're less like to leave youfor a company that doesn't offer
that human centered design Andyou'll have probably better
mental health and better mental,you know, better mental well
being, or just health and wellbeing generally for people who
can work more to their ownrhythms.
You know we can improve societyin a sense.
Ayo (04:09):
No, i mean I look at you see how that potentially works.
And you know, my brain isrunning quickly And I'm trying
to figure out.
okay, look, i've got a coupleof clients and I'm probably
going to see how you know,suggest, how you know how this
could help their business.
And so I mean, if I'm trying tofigure this out, so if I'm
trying to figure out, okay, look, who's who's an early person,
(04:31):
who's a late person, are theretests that we could do?
Or is this the kind of stuffwhere you just send out a survey
, you know, tell us your profileOr when, or do we ask questions
like when do you prefer to work?
Christopher (04:43):
I suspect that there are.
So questionnaires or surveysone could do, or even design for
that.
There's quite an interestingthought create something like
that.
But I think generally, you knowI mean I know I'm not a morning
person, i'm an evening person Iget my creative spurt at about
eight o'clock in the evening.
(05:04):
That probably helps that.
You know, in the eveningsyou're probably not in the work
environment, you haven't gotlots of interruptions, and
that's where the human-centereddesign thinking maybe comes into
.
This is how much of theefficiency loss that you get in
a business is due to peopleworking in their ideal times and
(05:24):
how much of it is actually justthe practices people have of
getting each other's way that,creating interference in the job
.
So it's difficult perhaps tospot that without a bit more
analysis.
I think There may be some a bitof applied neuroscience that
(05:46):
one could fit into this and havea conversation with someone
around that.
That would be interesting tothink of one or two.
Ayo (05:51):
You know, I mean, it sounds interesting because I'm a
morning person and I know once,you know, once it starts to get
dark six, seven, you knoweverything kind of slows down.
If I have to work late, I do,but it's definitely not my
preference.
And if at night, when itbecomes quiet, I fall asleep,
just like that, you know.
So I know, if I push anythingto late at the day, I'll
(06:12):
probably have to do it again inthe morning.
If it makes sense you know, soit's okay.
Christopher (06:18):
No, i like that I think there's a lot to be if we
think of us humans a bit like asmartphone, almost, you know you
start off in the morning if youremember to stick it on charge
overnight.
You start off with the fullbattery.
You know full capability, andthen if you're trying to operate
(06:39):
when your battery is drained,there will be mistakes, there
will be errors.
You know you introduce extrarisk.
So I think that's yeah.
I mean the western world ischronically sleep deprived.
I mean this is something whichis discussed quite often in the
media, but people don't, i think, realize quite how damaging and
(07:01):
dangerous that could be.
Driving jobs are one of theworst cases.
I'm sort of heading off on atangent here.
Well, it's a related tangent.
One of the experiments notexperiments that one of the
research pieces they did thatare reported in the book, is
where they tested the effect ofsleep deprivation.
(07:22):
Now why?
let me just cycle back slight.
Take a step back here.
If you force people to work inparticular times, let's say they
have to get them up early, butthey're night people, so they
just don't go to sleep earlyenough to get a full night's
sleep, to show up at seven inthe morning in a banking job or
something, then they're going tobecome chronically sleep
(07:43):
deprived And one of the effectsof that is people who are
chronically getting enough sleep.
It has a biochemical andphysical effect on the brain.
What does this mean?
Well, the experiment they did.
They took four groups of people.
One group full eight hours ofsleep.
Second group only four hours ofsleep.
(08:04):
Third group they took them tothe legal limit of inebriation,
so 80 milligrams per liter,whatever it is in the UK, but
other measures in othercountries exist, i'm sure, but
it's an experiment.
So, third group at the legallimit, so not over the legal, at
the legal limit.
And the fourth group sleepdeprived and illegal limit.
(08:26):
So four hours of sleep and, asI said, that alcohol
concentration.
They then tested them drivingfor what they call off road
deviations.
So that's where the driver isnot driving.
Well, they're going off road.
It's done on a simulator, it'snot done on a real road.
Okay, important to note.
(08:49):
The first group had a negligiblenumber of off road deviations.
The second group, the sleepdeprived group, four hours on
that night was six times morelikely to go off off road.
The inebriated group, alsoabout the same six six times
more likely to go off road.
The group that were bothinebriated and sleep deprived,
with 30 times more likely to gooff road.
(09:11):
Now, when you think about that,so you can see it obviously
compounds when you have the two.
But when are people most likelyto have a drink late in the
evening if they're chronicallysleep deprived and it's late, is
it any surprise that thehighest number of road traffic
accidents that are due towhatever either case are
(09:32):
happening on Friday nights,saturday nights.
Statistically, that's when mostof them happen.
It's no real surprise, is it?
And the two factors thatoperate with the two of the
factors that are going on atthat time.
One is if you're mildlyinebriated, your reaction times
are slow.
So you know there's a situationdeveloping.
(09:53):
When you're driving yourreactions won't be as quick as
they would be if you were.
You know, completely clear ofalcohol in your system.
When you're sleep deprived youget these things called
microsleeps.
So that's when you justmomentarily sleep, your brain
switches off, so there's nobodythere.
So with inebriation, reactionsare slow, it takes you time to
(10:17):
respond With a microsleepthere's nobody there, there's no
one in charge of the vehicle.
So when you come back, as itwere, you wake up again your
position has moved.
Because if you're driving, yourposition has moved, you've got
to recalibrate, you've got tore-work out.
Your brain has to re-work outthe trajectories of direction
(10:39):
and what's happening in front ofyou And it's got to catch up
and it's tired, so it's going tobe slower.
And if you've got both of thosefactors going at the same time,
is it any wonder that theconsequences can be rather
dramatic?
So how does that affectbusiness?
Well, there's a lot ofbusinesses that have drivers
It's worth thinking about.
What's the effect?
What effect is that having onyour the safety, health and
(11:03):
safety of your people, on thepeople around them?
you know, if you're driving youcould be driving on roads.
It affects others.
So there's the well-beingaspect.
There's your insurance.
What would it do to yourinsurance if you could eliminate
the accidents that happen inyour fleet?
And I knew a guy who was a newdad, right, and he worked in the
(11:25):
banking industry.
He was a trader.
He was chronically sleepdeprived because he had a new
baby at home Common experience.
But as a result of his impacton his cognition, he traded the
wrong side of a trade a coupleof times for the business, for
(11:47):
the bank he worked for, with theresulting losses in the
millions.
So really this is reallyimportant stuff for the.
You know the bottom line ofyour business.
Ayo (11:58):
You know.
I mean, i like that examplebecause what I was going to ask
you I was going to go to wasokay, look, i could see the
impact on drivers.
but a lot of businesses don'tyou know, don't have you know
drivers, or that's not a bigcomponent of their, of their
business.
So I wanted to test a couple ofthings, the first one being you
(12:18):
know, on performance, how doesyou know, from you know, when
you think of things likestrategic decision making, how,
what kind of impact does lack ofsleep have on the business.
Christopher (12:29):
Well, apart from the the well-being things we
were talking about, perhaps, ithink that the more tired your
brain is, the more difficult itbecomes to take that abstraction
from multiple sources ofinformation.
You know, when you're relaxedand refreshed you're able to
(12:51):
synthesize information better.
You're able to take manydifferent sources and integrate
them together to come to adecision about something.
Ayo (12:59):
So am I?
so?
I mean, am I able to?
is it, is it that I'm not ableto make decisions or my options
are limited?
I mean, i'm trying to kind ofI'm thinking, you know, putting
my shoes in someone listeningwho's running a business, who's
someone who's, you know, maybepride themselves on?
oh yeah, i only go on fourhours of sleep, i get my coffee
on and I'm, and I'm golden.
(13:19):
I mean, what impact, whatpotential impact is, what kind
of damage potentially ishappening to the business when
you have that kind ofcombination?
Christopher (13:27):
I think one of them is likely to be missed
opportunities, because I think,the more compromised your, your
processing is if you think of ayou know, think in terms of a
computing system running on lowpower, because you've, you've,
you've got, you know, lowstorage of energy.
If you haven't had your sleep,caffeine's effect waking up
(13:51):
effect doesn't increase yourcognition, it just completely
increases your alertnesstemporarily, chemically.
So, if anything, it's narrowingyour focus, which has its uses.
You know, if you're, if you'redoing a single, very precise
activity of some kind, then yeah, it might, it might be
beneficial, but in business,it's creativity that, generally
(14:14):
speaking, is at certain levelsof business, it's, it's the,
it's what makes the differenceto your success in as a, as an
enterprise, is creativity, is iscrucial to your success.
I don't know why it pops intomy mind, but Google has 20%,
this thing called 20% time,where its engineers are allowed
(14:36):
to work on anything you know,creatively, work on anything,
anything they'd like to,anything that's interesting to
them, and to be able to.
You'll be at your most creativewhen you've got all of your,
all of your assets available toyou.
All of your, your capabilitiesare fully, as it were, charged
up.
Gmail, google AdWords.
(14:58):
These came out of thosecreative 20% times, not out of
some kind of strategic thing.
Well, what we need to do nextis invent an email system.
No, it was someone in the inthe environment at Google who
said I don't like these otheremail systems, how about we make
our own one?
And they started building theirfirst examples, their MVPs, and
they built it up And it's thebiggest mail platform in the
(15:18):
world today.
So I think the impact of poorsleep habits reduces creativity
overall, amongst many otherthings, but creativity, i think
in the business context, is oneof the most important.
Ayo (15:34):
Okay, okay Now, thanks for that.
The other thing I picked upfrom the book, as was written,
it was the impact on you know,your ability to learn and your
memory and all of that stuff.
What do you think about that,or do you want to say more about
that with respect to business?
Christopher (15:50):
Yeah, business, but yes, of course, it affects
everywhere.
In business we're constantlylearning.
You know, if you're new to abusiness, you're just joining it
.
You need to learn the cultureof that business and you need to
get under its skin.
You need to learn what isactually in this new job.
You need to learn yourenvironment, your stakeholders,
all of that.
That's all learning.
What they discovered in theresearch is how sleep
(16:14):
consolidates your learning.
If you're learning a musicalinstrument and you're practicing
and you're going at it againand again and again, you're
trying to learn a passage andyou just aren't getting it.
The best thing you can do issleep on it And then next day
you come back to it and youdiscover that suddenly it's
easier.
Now, everyone's had thisexperience.
They don't always know it waspresent to it, but they've had
that experience when they triedto.
(16:35):
It could be a technical thing,maybe it's your golf swing or
you know, whatever it might be,something that has.
There's a learning aspect to itthat you work at it with
repetition.
But repetition alone isn'tenough.
You need your brain, needs timeto unravel the bits that didn't
work.
Keep the bits that did and theybecome this.
(16:55):
The effect of that is the nexttime you try it, you suddenly
notice the difference, thatsuddenly this was, there was a
step change, and all you did wassleep.
The only difference was youslept.
So there is an effect on that.
It takes a full cycle of sleepto do it.
Though If you're one of thesefour hours, six hour night
people, you're not going to getthe full benefit of that,
because you're not.
(17:15):
Your brain isn't going throughall of the cycles it needs to do
the different functions thatthe brain does.
The whole circadian rhythm bitis incredibly important.
I mean, if we think about howthat works, genetically, as it
were, evolutionarily, we'vegrown up through a rhythm.
Up until the last couple ofhundred years, in the Industrial
(17:36):
Revolution, we grew up withrhythms which were determined by
daylight.
It was bright during the day,it was dark at night.
You know, if you're lucky, youhad candles, you had a fire or
whatever.
If you're in a cave, you had afire, and the difference in
light intensity between firelight and daylight daylight's
20,000 lumens-ish 10 to 20,000lumens.
Fire light is about six to 900lumens.
(17:58):
So it's massive, massivethousands of percent different
here.
Don't take my maths.
But now, in the modern day,what do we do now?
Well, we work in dimly litoffices and bright, and we at
night we're in brightly lithomes.
I mean, some officers are verybrightly lit as well now.
So that has a big impact andevolution hasn't had a chance to
(18:22):
necessarily catch up with allof that.
It's only given a couple ofhundred years since we've had
electric light.
So that's a major difference inhow the body reads what it
needs to do, when You may haveheard of experiments done where
people were prevented fromsleeping at all and the body
(18:42):
just starts to break down aftera few weeks It just everything
shuts down and breaks because ithasn't had a chance to do the
repair cycles.
And your brain's the same.
Your brain needs to clean outevery day, ideally every night,
and that cleaning cycle, thatbrainwashing that should happen
every night that you've chosenthe wash cycle, but that
brainwash only starts to happenafter six, six and a half hours
(19:05):
of sleep.
So if you never get to that six, six and a half hours, your
brain never gets a chance to dothe clean out, to wash out all
the byproducts of respiration inthe brain, which is the process
of turning sugars into energyand that leaves.
That's a combustion processchemically, it leaves residue
That's got to be cleaned out.
There's a strong correlationthat suggests that if you can't
(19:27):
do that, the brain doesn't getthe opportunity to do that.
That what you're probablylooking at is Alzheimer's and
dementia, because that's whereyou find this buildup of the
myeloid and amyloid plaque, andthis is what gets left over if
the brain can't clean it out.
Ayo (19:43):
That's very interesting.
So, basically, sleep cleansyour brain.
Well, no, no enough sleep,that's it, your brain.
So you got to get enough goodnight rest, which is anything
between seven to eight hours.
I mean one of the lessons Imean I wouldn't say from the
book, but one of the lessonsI've observed from my career has
been around the impact of sleepon productivity.
(20:04):
Because what used to happen youknow, it's really when I was in
banking, i was a consultant iswhen you walk late into the
night, one of the things Idiscovered was the rate of
mistakes in the documentincreases significantly And then
you end up.
When you wake up, when you getback to the document, you have
to do rework.
And if you're familiar, youknow, if you're in a
(20:26):
manufacturing environment,rework is what everybody frowns
against because that's veryexpensive.
But obviously in a you know, ina people business, no one is
specifically measuring rework solong as it doesn't get to the
clients, right?
Because if it doesn't get tothe client, well then it's fine.
But what I found was I startedto.
(20:47):
You know, when I start to feeltired when I'm working, i just
stop, you know, and I go tosleep, and then as soon as I
wake up, i go back to what I wasdoing, and I did it much faster
than the rate at which I wasgoing when I was getting tired,
and I used to put that down toOh yeah, i'm getting tired and
stuff.
But I also see how, you know,look, the body recognizes it's
(21:10):
time to sleep.
Go to sleep right Now.
The body expects you to give ita certain amount of sleep.
If you don't give it that amountof sleep, it's almost as if you
didn't go to sleep.
You know, and I've noticed thaton days where I don't get
enough sleep, i mean throughoutthe entire day, i'm having to
rely on, you know, coffee orsome other stuff.
(21:33):
I'm not falling sleepy, i'm notfeeling sleepy, i'm just just
to stay awake, like you know,stay switched on.
So so, yeah, look, i mean Ithink for me, you know, i get
all the benefits and all thelessons that that are in there.
I guess the real question isfirst, as a business leader, how
(21:54):
do I start to think about?
you know, because it's okay, ifyou, as a business leader, if
you sleep well, why do you startto get a culture of you know
well rested people in yourbusiness?
What are practical ways ofstarting to think about that and
get into the business?
Because it's not when I'm goodto know all of the benefits, but
if we, if you can't implementit, you know probably, if you
(22:16):
can't do it, then it's kind ofuseless to you.
Christopher (22:19):
Yeah, i think there's a very strong culture,
business cultural element ofthis.
I mean, as you say, in bankingthere was this, this, this
culture, i suppose you know,macho kind of culture where you
know, we, we party late into thenight but we're still, you know
, up early in the morning Andthat, bizarrely, when you
understand what, what the damageit does, it has been celebrated
(22:41):
for years, hasn't it?
So I think there's work to bedone to break down that idea as
a positive.
It's not a positive thing to berunning on empty.
Margaret Thatcher and RonaldReagan were famous for their
boasts about minimum sleep andwhat happened to them.
(23:02):
They both had very seriousdementia at the end of their
lives and that's no fun for them, it's no fun for anyone around
them.
The cost of society is huge.
So I think education is theanswer.
It was usually the answer andit certainly the answer in this
case.
Education so that people areaware of the need for proper
rest, proper sleep, and you leadfrom the top.
(23:24):
You know you lead from the topand you, you encourage an
environment in which people canquestion those practices in your
business and if you find thatyour business really needs
people at certain times, sothink about how can you design
around that, how can you either,maybe, if it's a time, so if
it's a shift time, shift thing,could you staff that proportion
(23:47):
of your business from adifferent time set.
You know we live in aninternational, always on world
with you know, connected by theinternet.
If you need someone who's goingto be working, you know, from
five o'clock in the evening tillmidnight London time, do they
have to be in the UK or couldyou pick some could you work
with work with you know someonein in the Americas, because
(24:10):
they'll be.
That's their normal naturaldaytime in America's connect
connectivity is not really thatmuch of an issue now, really
Okay now I mean it's interesting, so I mean.
Ayo (24:19):
So the lessons I'm kind of taking away, first of all, is,
as a business leader, you knowyou've got to promote, you know,
this idea of you know, gettingenough rest and refreshing your
bearing as a way, as a lifestyle.
First and foremost, you know,because if you, if you're not
doing it, there's no pointtalking about it.
The second bit is theneducation.
(24:40):
You've got to just educatepeople on the importance of
sleep in terms of, you know, theability to perform better work
and to you know to do, you knowto do things better.
Oh, the one thing I also say asa business leader is you can't
be asking people to sleep andthen be promoting the I guess a
damaging environment of, yeah,we get things done in, you know,
(25:02):
in there's this idea of, or wecan get things done irrespective
of the cost, so we walk tillwhenever to get whatever you
need to get to you.
So you know, i mean you get thepoint I'm making.
Christopher (25:14):
Yeah, i do, and I think we can it.
Culturally, i think it.
Why not ask your own people,you know, ask the people who are
doing the job to come up withbetter ways of fitting it into
into that model of awell-designed work environment
that's not going to bephysically and mentally damaging
(25:35):
?
I think there are companies whoare going to really worry that
if they admit to this being anissue that they could be leaving
themselves open to to to legalchallenges on well-being.
Ayo (25:46):
But you know, i'd say sort this out now, don't leave it,
don't leave it till later and Ithink I mean there are ways to
deal with it, withoutnecessarily saying it's an issue
which you know.
We're learning new ways andwe're saying, okay, look, you
know, i think we think it'simportant for people to start to
get more sleep and you know youcan implement that culture
change yeah, can you imagine?
Christopher (26:07):
you yourself to liabilities can you imagine how,
how sticky that makes your workenvironment for your staff?
if you're doing that, you knowyour staff will never want to
leave because they where arethey going to get this elsewhere
?
you know, at least for the nextseveral, who knows how long and
and when you think that.
You know if you've got anemployee that's earning around,
(26:28):
you know 40k to replace thatemployee is going to cost you as
a business.
According to the calculationnumber one of the the HR groups
and I'd have to find the linkfor you that the real cost of
that isn't just Okay.
We've got twenty five percentof their salary for recruiter to
(26:49):
find a new one.
There's the cost of the hiringmanager, the leaders in that
organization.
You have to redefine the role,interview people, make offers,
train them when they arrive andall the distraction time.
The real cost is about ahundred and thirty thousand to
replace one person who salariesaround forty came up.
So every time you keep someone,it's protecting a hundred and
(27:12):
thirty plus grand of your bottomline as a business.
So how can you afford not toconsider things like this that
are gonna make your businessmore attractive to keep people,
to keep you good people?
Ayo (27:25):
No, i mean no, i completely agree with you.
And then you know, for anyonelistening, i mean they got it.
The power of sleep is that youknow it's an exciting book for
you to read, you know, andthere's so much to learn from
that book.
So I mean, we've beendiscussing, we've been going for
a while now.
So, chris, i mean I will giveyou, i'll give you the final one
, and this is your, the experton sleep.
What would you?
(27:46):
I'll give you the final right.
Christopher (27:48):
So I think for me the biggest takeaway on this is
the is is how getting that sevenhalf to eight and a half hours
of sleep opportunities it'scalled how important that is to
your own health and well beingand, as a consequence, how
important it is to yourPerformance and, ultimately,
(28:08):
your opportunities, thecreativity it's.
You could say it's a no brainerIf you don't get the sleep,
you're gonna end up, you know,having no brain.
Ayo (28:23):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, i guess the book gets some sleep.
And then, you know, i guess Idon't know, chris, you know
folks not subscribe to our, toour podcast.
I guess we could put the linkin the show notes.
Christopher (28:39):
Where they're in all the usual pod grabbers.
Just search for biz and coffeeand you'll find us, nice red
tail with a microphone on it,and the book will put link for
the book in the, in the chat,and there's lots of resources
around that you can Google.
For I think the key thing isRealize the importance of it and
make sure that you're nearestand dearest.
(29:01):
Get this to, because it's it'stoo important to just let it.
Let it go by, do like andsubscribe.
If you get the, if you have theopportunity to do a review,
that's great.
Please do apple podcast, do itspotify, you can do reviews.
That really helps us get knownand get out there.
Yeah, so without, i guess it'sa.
That's a wrap for today andwe'll see you next time.
Ayo (29:22):
Alright, bye for now.
So welcome to season three.
In this season we're talkingabout books, we're going to be
discussing insights relating tobusiness and business leadership
, and in this first episodewe're taking a look at Why We
Sleep by Matthew Walker.
So wish we start.
Ayo (00:16):
No, I mean welcome to season three as well.
I mean, and I think the onething that you haven't mentioned
is the fact that we are, forthe first time, going to be
streaming this live on YouTube.
So it's also season three isalso a bit of an experiment for
us.
Christopher (00:31):
You know anyways I mean Chris you.
Ayo (00:33):
I mean you got me onto this book and you had a lot to say
about it when you got me onto it, and so so in this episode, i'm
going to be asking you a lot ofquestions and I'll also be
sharing some of my thoughtsabout a lot of questions coming
your way.
So get ready.
I know I did tell you thisbefore we started, but you know
I thought I'd measure that Okay.
Christopher (00:52):
Brace myself.
Ayo (00:53):
Yep.
So, and my first question isyou know, if you, if you were
going to pitch this to anyone,how would you pitch it?
Christopher (01:00):
One of the key things for me was how.
The fact that, from a businessperspective, was how, by forcing
people into very specific timeslots, you decrease the
efficiency of the people whowork for you, and that decrease
could be somewhere between 40 to60%.
You know, if you've got peoplewho are morning people and they
(01:22):
come in early and they work Imean that tends to be the norm
in business people arecelebrated for showing up early.
But there are other people whowork better later in the day and
they're just not that effectiveearly in the morning.
So you just lose all thisefficiency.
So, if you can, where you cangive more flexibility and I
think the pandemic has helped inthat respect, in the lockdowns
(01:45):
helped to introduce moreflexibility into the working
environment has possibly meantthat you get more efficiency
from people choosing their owntimes to work.
It doesn't work in everysituation or in every industry.
You know, if you've got crisiscenters 24 seven operations that
have to be staffed around theclock, then you do need people
(02:05):
in those, you know to coverevery time slot.
But if you can allow people toperhaps self select into some
time slots that work best forthem and then don't keep
rotating those shifts out ofsome notion of fairness, you
know, is it fair to take someonewho's a night owl and force
them to work early in themorning?
Doesn't seem fair to me.
If there are other people whoprefer to work in the morning,
(02:28):
give them those.
The give them the morning slots, give the night elves the
evening slots and, you know, tryand even it out that way and
you'll get better effect.
You'll get more efficiency outof your workforce.
Ayo (02:37):
Yeah, no, i imagine, you know.
Yeah, that could.
That could become a bit of achallenge, you know, especially
for a business that doesn't lenditself to, maybe, shift type
work, but I did, you know.
I mean, i remember one job thatI had where there were some
folks who came in later in theday, but the reason that was
done was more for to help withlogistics and traffic, just
(03:00):
because, you know, moving duringpeak hours for some people was
a little bit difficult And thatwas why that was done.
You know, by you suggesting,for instance, as a business
leader, we know, we should maybeconsider separating our
workforce based on their I don'tknow their sleep profile.
Christopher (03:21):
Workforce?
perhaps not, but I think it's aquestion designing the business
, isn't it?
Design the business aroundhumans rather than force the
humans to fit in around thebusiness side?
You can't.
it's not an absolute, is it?
If you, if you design thebusiness and design the your
business model around humans,you will have higher engagement
(03:45):
from your staff.
you will have higher stickiness.
they're less like to leave youfor a company that doesn't offer
that human centered design Andyou'll have probably better
mental health and better mental,you know, better mental well
being, or just health and wellbeing generally for people who
can work more to their ownrhythms.
You know we can improve societyin a sense.
Ayo (04:09):
No, i mean I look at you see how that potentially works.
And you know, my brain isrunning quickly And I'm trying
to figure out.
okay, look, i've got a coupleof clients and I'm probably
going to see how you know,suggest, how you know how this
could help their business.
And so I mean, if I'm trying tofigure this out, so if I'm
trying to figure out, okay, look, who's who's an early person,
(04:31):
who's a late person, are theretests that we could do?
Or is this the kind of stuffwhere you just send out a survey
, you know, tell us your profileOr when, or do we ask questions
like when do you prefer to work?
Christopher (04:43):
I suspect that there are.
So questionnaires or surveysone could do, or even design for
that.
There's quite an interestingthought create something like
that.
But I think generally, you knowI mean I know I'm not a morning
person, i'm an evening person Iget my creative spurt at about
eight o'clock in the evening.
(05:04):
That probably helps that.
You know, in the eveningsyou're probably not in the work
environment, you haven't gotlots of interruptions, and
that's where the human-centereddesign thinking maybe comes into
.
This is how much of theefficiency loss that you get in
a business is due to peopleworking in their ideal times and
(05:24):
how much of it is actually justthe practices people have of
getting each other's way that,creating interference in the job
.
So it's difficult perhaps tospot that without a bit more
analysis.
I think There may be some a bitof applied neuroscience that
(05:46):
one could fit into this and havea conversation with someone
around that.
That would be interesting tothink of one or two.
Ayo (05:51):
You know, I mean, it sounds interesting because I'm a
morning person and I know once,you know, once it starts to get
dark six, seven, you knoweverything kind of slows down.
If I have to work late, I do,but it's definitely not my
preference.
And if at night, when itbecomes quiet, I fall asleep,
just like that, you know.
So I know, if I push anythingto late at the day, I'll
(06:12):
probably have to do it again inthe morning.
If it makes sense you know, soit's okay.
Christopher (06:18):
No, i like that I think there's a lot to be if we
think of us humans a bit like asmartphone, almost, you know you
start off in the morning if youremember to stick it on charge
overnight.
You start off with the fullbattery.
You know full capability, andthen if you're trying to operate
(06:39):
when your battery is drained,there will be mistakes, there
will be errors.
You know you introduce extrarisk.
So I think that's yeah.
I mean the western world ischronically sleep deprived.
I mean this is something whichis discussed quite often in the
media, but people don't, i think, realize quite how damaging and
(07:01):
dangerous that could be.
Driving jobs are one of theworst cases.
I'm sort of heading off on atangent here.
Well, it's a related tangent.
One of the experiments notexperiments that one of the
research pieces they did thatare reported in the book, is
where they tested the effect ofsleep deprivation.
(07:22):
Now why?
let me just cycle back slight.
Take a step back here.
If you force people to work inparticular times, let's say they
have to get them up early, butthey're night people, so they
just don't go to sleep earlyenough to get a full night's
sleep, to show up at seven inthe morning in a banking job or
something, then they're going tobecome chronically sleep
(07:43):
deprived And one of the effectsof that is people who are
chronically getting enough sleep.
It has a biochemical andphysical effect on the brain.
What does this mean?
Well, the experiment they did.
They took four groups of people.
One group full eight hours ofsleep.
Second group only four hours ofsleep.
(08:04):
Third group they took them tothe legal limit of inebriation,
so 80 milligrams per liter,whatever it is in the UK, but
other measures in othercountries exist, i'm sure, but
it's an experiment.
So, third group at the legallimit, so not over the legal, at
the legal limit.
And the fourth group sleepdeprived and illegal limit.
(08:26):
So four hours of sleep and, asI said, that alcohol
concentration.
They then tested them drivingfor what they call off road
deviations.
So that's where the driver isnot driving.
Well, they're going off road.
It's done on a simulator, it'snot done on a real road.
Okay, important to note.
(08:49):
The first group had a negligiblenumber of off road deviations.
The second group, the sleepdeprived group, four hours on
that night was six times morelikely to go off off road.
The inebriated group, alsoabout the same six six times
more likely to go off road.
The group that were bothinebriated and sleep deprived,
with 30 times more likely to gooff road.
(09:11):
Now, when you think about that,so you can see it obviously
compounds when you have the two.
But when are people most likelyto have a drink late in the
evening if they're chronicallysleep deprived and it's late, is
it any surprise that thehighest number of road traffic
accidents that are due towhatever either case are
(09:32):
happening on Friday nights,saturday nights.
Statistically, that's when mostof them happen.
It's no real surprise, is it?
And the two factors thatoperate with the two of the
factors that are going on atthat time.
One is if you're mildlyinebriated, your reaction times
are slow.
So you know there's a situationdeveloping.
(09:53):
When you're driving yourreactions won't be as quick as
they would be if you were.
You know, completely clear ofalcohol in your system.
When you're sleep deprived youget these things called
microsleeps.
So that's when you justmomentarily sleep, your brain
switches off, so there's nobodythere.
So with inebriation, reactionsare slow, it takes you time to
(10:17):
respond With a microsleepthere's nobody there, there's no
one in charge of the vehicle.
So when you come back, as itwere, you wake up again your
position has moved.
Because if you're driving, yourposition has moved, you've got
to recalibrate, you've got tore-work out.
Your brain has to re-work outthe trajectories of direction
(10:39):
and what's happening in front ofyou And it's got to catch up
and it's tired, so it's going tobe slower.
And if you've got both of thosefactors going at the same time,
is it any wonder that theconsequences can be rather
dramatic?
So how does that affectbusiness?
Well, there's a lot ofbusinesses that have drivers
It's worth thinking about.
What's the effect?
What effect is that having onyour the safety, health and
(11:03):
safety of your people, on thepeople around them?
you know, if you're driving youcould be driving on roads.
It affects others.
So there's the well-beingaspect.
There's your insurance.
What would it do to yourinsurance if you could eliminate
the accidents that happen inyour fleet?
And I knew a guy who was a newdad, right, and he worked in the
(11:25):
banking industry.
He was a trader.
He was chronically sleepdeprived because he had a new
baby at home Common experience.
But as a result of his impacton his cognition, he traded the
wrong side of a trade a coupleof times for the business, for
(11:47):
the bank he worked for, with theresulting losses in the
millions.
So really this is reallyimportant stuff for the.
You know the bottom line ofyour business.
Ayo (11:58):
You know.
I mean, i like that examplebecause what I was going to ask
you I was going to go to wasokay, look, i could see the
impact on drivers.
but a lot of businesses don'tyou know, don't have you know
drivers, or that's not a bigcomponent of their, of their
business.
So I wanted to test a couple ofthings, the first one being you
(12:18):
know, on performance, how doesyou know, from you know, when
you think of things likestrategic decision making, how,
what kind of impact does lack ofsleep have on the business.
Christopher (12:29):
Well, apart from the the well-being things we
were talking about, perhaps, ithink that the more tired your
brain is, the more difficult itbecomes to take that abstraction
from multiple sources ofinformation.
You know, when you're relaxedand refreshed you're able to
(12:51):
synthesize information better.
You're able to take manydifferent sources and integrate
them together to come to adecision about something.
Ayo (12:59):
So am I?
so?
I mean, am I able to?
is it, is it that I'm not ableto make decisions or my options
are limited?
I mean, i'm trying to kind ofI'm thinking, you know, putting
my shoes in someone listeningwho's running a business, who's
someone who's, you know, maybepride themselves on?
oh yeah, i only go on fourhours of sleep, i get my coffee
on and I'm, and I'm golden.
(13:19):
I mean, what impact, whatpotential impact is, what kind
of damage potentially ishappening to the business when
you have that kind ofcombination?
Christopher (13:27):
I think one of them is likely to be missed
opportunities, because I think,the more compromised your, your
processing is if you think of ayou know, think in terms of a
computing system running on lowpower, because you've, you've,
you've got, you know, lowstorage of energy.
If you haven't had your sleep,caffeine's effect waking up
(13:51):
effect doesn't increase yourcognition, it just completely
increases your alertnesstemporarily, chemically.
So, if anything, it's narrowingyour focus, which has its uses.
You know, if you're, if you'redoing a single, very precise
activity of some kind, then yeah, it might, it might be
beneficial, but in business,it's creativity that, generally
(14:14):
speaking, is at certain levelsof business, it's, it's the,
it's what makes the differenceto your success in as a, as an
enterprise, is creativity, is iscrucial to your success.
I don't know why it pops intomy mind, but Google has 20%,
this thing called 20% time,where its engineers are allowed
(14:36):
to work on anything you know,creatively, work on anything,
anything they'd like to,anything that's interesting to
them, and to be able to.
You'll be at your most creativewhen you've got all of your,
all of your assets available toyou.
All of your, your capabilitiesare fully, as it were, charged
up.
Gmail, google AdWords.
(14:58):
These came out of thosecreative 20% times, not out of
some kind of strategic thing.
Well, what we need to do nextis invent an email system.
No, it was someone in the inthe environment at Google who
said I don't like these otheremail systems, how about we make
our own one?
And they started building theirfirst examples, their MVPs, and
they built it up And it's thebiggest mail platform in the
(15:18):
world today.
So I think the impact of poorsleep habits reduces creativity
overall, amongst many otherthings, but creativity, i think
in the business context, is oneof the most important.
Ayo (15:34):
Okay, okay Now, thanks for that.
The other thing I picked upfrom the book, as was written,
it was the impact on you know,your ability to learn and your
memory and all of that stuff.
What do you think about that,or do you want to say more about
that with respect to business?
Christopher (15:50):
Yeah, business, but yes, of course, it affects
everywhere.
In business we're constantlylearning.
You know, if you're new to abusiness, you're just joining it
.
You need to learn the cultureof that business and you need to
get under its skin.
You need to learn what isactually in this new job.
You need to learn yourenvironment, your stakeholders,
all of that.
That's all learning.
What they discovered in theresearch is how sleep
(16:14):
consolidates your learning.
If you're learning a musicalinstrument and you're practicing
and you're going at it againand again and again, you're
trying to learn a passage andyou just aren't getting it.
The best thing you can do issleep on it And then next day
you come back to it and youdiscover that suddenly it's
easier.
Now, everyone's had thisexperience.
They don't always know it waspresent to it, but they've had
that experience when they triedto.
(16:35):
It could be a technical thing,maybe it's your golf swing or
you know, whatever it might be,something that has.
There's a learning aspect to itthat you work at it with
repetition.
But repetition alone isn'tenough.
You need your brain, needs timeto unravel the bits that didn't
work.
Keep the bits that did and theybecome this.
(16:55):
The effect of that is the nexttime you try it, you suddenly
notice the difference, thatsuddenly this was, there was a
step change, and all you did wassleep.
The only difference was youslept.
So there is an effect on that.
It takes a full cycle of sleepto do it.
Though If you're one of thesefour hours, six hour night
people, you're not going to getthe full benefit of that,
because you're not.
(17:15):
Your brain isn't going throughall of the cycles it needs to do
the different functions thatthe brain does.
The whole circadian rhythm bitis incredibly important.
I mean, if we think about howthat works, genetically, as it
were, evolutionarily, we'vegrown up through a rhythm.
Up until the last couple ofhundred years, in the Industrial
(17:36):
Revolution, we grew up withrhythms which were determined by
daylight.
It was bright during the day,it was dark at night.
You know, if you're lucky, youhad candles, you had a fire or
whatever.
If you're in a cave, you had afire, and the difference in
light intensity between firelight and daylight daylight's
20,000 lumens-ish 10 to 20,000lumens.
Fire light is about six to 900lumens.
(17:58):
So it's massive, massivethousands of percent different
here.
Don't take my maths.
But now, in the modern day,what do we do now?
Well, we work in dimly litoffices and bright, and we at
night we're in brightly lithomes.
I mean, some officers are verybrightly lit as well now.
So that has a big impact andevolution hasn't had a chance to
(18:22):
necessarily catch up with allof that.
It's only given a couple ofhundred years since we've had
electric light.
So that's a major difference inhow the body reads what it
needs to do, when You may haveheard of experiments done where
people were prevented fromsleeping at all and the body
(18:42):
just starts to break down aftera few weeks It just everything
shuts down and breaks because ithasn't had a chance to do the
repair cycles.
And your brain's the same.
Your brain needs to clean outevery day, ideally every night,
and that cleaning cycle, thatbrainwashing that should happen
every night that you've chosenthe wash cycle, but that
brainwash only starts to happenafter six, six and a half hours
(19:05):
of sleep.
So if you never get to that six, six and a half hours, your
brain never gets a chance to dothe clean out, to wash out all
the byproducts of respiration inthe brain, which is the process
of turning sugars into energyand that leaves.
That's a combustion processchemically, it leaves residue
That's got to be cleaned out.
There's a strong correlationthat suggests that if you can't
(19:27):
do that, the brain doesn't getthe opportunity to do that.
That what you're probablylooking at is Alzheimer's and
dementia, because that's whereyou find this buildup of the
myeloid and amyloid plaque, andthis is what gets left over if
the brain can't clean it out.
Ayo (19:43):
That's very interesting.
So, basically, sleep cleansyour brain.
Well, no, no enough sleep,that's it, your brain.
So you got to get enough goodnight rest, which is anything
between seven to eight hours.
I mean one of the lessons Imean I wouldn't say from the
book, but one of the lessonsI've observed from my career has
been around the impact of sleepon productivity.
(20:04):
Because what used to happen youknow, it's really when I was in
banking, i was a consultant iswhen you walk late into the
night, one of the things Idiscovered was the rate of
mistakes in the documentincreases significantly And then
you end up.
When you wake up, when you getback to the document, you have
to do rework.
And if you're familiar, youknow, if you're in a
(20:26):
manufacturing environment,rework is what everybody frowns
against because that's veryexpensive.
But obviously in a you know, ina people business, no one is
specifically measuring rework solong as it doesn't get to the
clients, right?
Because if it doesn't get tothe client, well then it's fine.
But what I found was I startedto.
(20:47):
You know, when I start to feeltired when I'm working, i just
stop, you know, and I go tosleep, and then as soon as I
wake up, i go back to what I wasdoing, and I did it much faster
than the rate at which I wasgoing when I was getting tired,
and I used to put that down toOh yeah, i'm getting tired and
stuff.
But I also see how, you know,look, the body recognizes it's
(21:10):
time to sleep.
Go to sleep right Now.
The body expects you to give ita certain amount of sleep.
If you don't give it that amountof sleep, it's almost as if you
didn't go to sleep.
You know, and I've noticed thaton days where I don't get
enough sleep, i mean throughoutthe entire day, i'm having to
rely on, you know, coffee orsome other stuff.
(21:33):
I'm not falling sleepy, i'm notfeeling sleepy, i'm just just
to stay awake, like you know,stay switched on.
So so, yeah, look, i mean Ithink for me, you know, i get
all the benefits and all thelessons that that are in there.
I guess the real question isfirst, as a business leader, how
(21:54):
do I start to think about?
you know, because it's okay, ifyou, as a business leader, if
you sleep well, why do you startto get a culture of you know
well rested people in yourbusiness?
What are practical ways ofstarting to think about that and
get into the business?
Because it's not when I'm goodto know all of the benefits, but
if we, if you can't implementit, you know probably, if you
(22:16):
can't do it, then it's kind ofuseless to you.
Christopher (22:19):
Yeah, i think there's a very strong culture,
business cultural element ofthis.
I mean, as you say, in bankingthere was this, this, this
culture, i suppose you know,macho kind of culture where you
know, we, we party late into thenight but we're still, you know
, up early in the morning Andthat, bizarrely, when you
understand what, what the damageit does, it has been celebrated
(22:41):
for years, hasn't it?
So I think there's work to bedone to break down that idea as
a positive.
It's not a positive thing to berunning on empty.
Margaret Thatcher and RonaldReagan were famous for their
boasts about minimum sleep andwhat happened to them.
(23:02):
They both had very seriousdementia at the end of their
lives and that's no fun for them, it's no fun for anyone around
them.
The cost of society is huge.
So I think education is theanswer.
It was usually the answer andit certainly the answer in this
case.
Education so that people areaware of the need for proper
rest, proper sleep, and you leadfrom the top.
(23:24):
You know you lead from the topand you, you encourage an
environment in which people canquestion those practices in your
business and if you find thatyour business really needs
people at certain times, sothink about how can you design
around that, how can you either,maybe, if it's a time, so if
it's a shift time, shift thing,could you staff that proportion
(23:47):
of your business from adifferent time set.
You know we live in aninternational, always on world
with you know, connected by theinternet.
If you need someone who's goingto be working, you know, from
five o'clock in the evening tillmidnight London time, do they
have to be in the UK or couldyou pick some could you work
with work with you know someonein in the Americas, because
(24:10):
they'll be.
That's their normal naturaldaytime in America's connect
connectivity is not really thatmuch of an issue now, really
Okay now I mean it's interesting, so I mean.
Ayo (24:19):
So the lessons I'm kind of taking away, first of all, is,
as a business leader, you knowyou've got to promote, you know,
this idea of you know, gettingenough rest and refreshing your
bearing as a way, as a lifestyle.
First and foremost, you know,because if you, if you're not
doing it, there's no pointtalking about it.
The second bit is theneducation.
(24:40):
You've got to just educatepeople on the importance of
sleep in terms of, you know, theability to perform better work
and to you know to do, you knowto do things better.
Oh, the one thing I also say asa business leader is you can't
be asking people to sleep andthen be promoting the I guess a
damaging environment of, yeah,we get things done in, you know,
(25:02):
in there's this idea of, or wecan get things done irrespective
of the cost, so we walk tillwhenever to get whatever you
need to get to you.
So you know, i mean you get thepoint I'm making.
Christopher (25:14):
Yeah, i do, and I think we can it.
Culturally, i think it.
Why not ask your own people,you know, ask the people who are
doing the job to come up withbetter ways of fitting it into
into that model of awell-designed work environment
that's not going to bephysically and mentally damaging
(25:35):
?
I think there are companies whoare going to really worry that
if they admit to this being anissue that they could be leaving
themselves open to to to legalchallenges on well-being.
Ayo (25:46):
But you know, i'd say sort this out now, don't leave it,
don't leave it till later and Ithink I mean there are ways to
deal with it, withoutnecessarily saying it's an issue
which you know.
We're learning new ways andwe're saying, okay, look, you
know, i think we think it'simportant for people to start to
get more sleep and you know youcan implement that culture
change yeah, can you imagine?
Christopher (26:07):
you yourself to liabilities can you imagine how,
how sticky that makes your workenvironment for your staff?
if you're doing that, you knowyour staff will never want to
leave because they where arethey going to get this elsewhere
?
you know, at least for the nextseveral, who knows how long and
and when you think that.
You know if you've got anemployee that's earning around,
(26:28):
you know 40k to replace thatemployee is going to cost you as
a business.
According to the calculationnumber one of the the HR groups
and I'd have to find the linkfor you that the real cost of
that isn't just Okay.
We've got twenty five percentof their salary for recruiter to
(26:49):
find a new one.
There's the cost of the hiringmanager, the leaders in that
organization.
You have to redefine the role,interview people, make offers,
train them when they arrive andall the distraction time.
The real cost is about ahundred and thirty thousand to
replace one person who salariesaround forty came up.
So every time you keep someone,it's protecting a hundred and
(27:12):
thirty plus grand of your bottomline as a business.
So how can you afford not toconsider things like this that
are gonna make your businessmore attractive to keep people,
to keep you good people?
Ayo (27:25):
No, i mean no, i completely agree with you.
And then you know, for anyonelistening, i mean they got it.
The power of sleep is that youknow it's an exciting book for
you to read, you know, andthere's so much to learn from
that book.
So I mean, we've beendiscussing, we've been going for
a while now.
So, chris, i mean I will giveyou, i'll give you the final one
, and this is your, the experton sleep.
What would you?
(27:46):
I'll give you the final right.
Christopher (27:48):
So I think for me the biggest takeaway on this is
the is is how getting that sevenhalf to eight and a half hours
of sleep opportunities it'scalled how important that is to
your own health and well beingand, as a consequence, how
important it is to yourPerformance and, ultimately,
(28:08):
your opportunities, thecreativity it's.
You could say it's a no brainerIf you don't get the sleep,
you're gonna end up, you know,having no brain.
Ayo (28:23):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, i guess the book gets some sleep.
And then, you know, i guess Idon't know, chris, you know
folks not subscribe to our, toour podcast.
I guess we could put the linkin the show notes.
Christopher (28:39):
Where they're in all the usual pod grabbers.
Just search for biz and coffeeand you'll find us, nice red
tail with a microphone on it,and the book will put link for
the book in the, in the chat,and there's lots of resources
around that you can Google.
For I think the key thing isRealize the importance of it and
make sure that you're nearestand dearest.
(29:01):
Get this to, because it's it'stoo important to just let it.
Let it go by, do like andsubscribe.
If you get the, if you have theopportunity to do a review,
that's great.
Please do apple podcast, do itspotify, you can do reviews.
That really helps us get knownand get out there.
Yeah, so without, i guess it'sa.
That's a wrap for today andwe'll see you next time.
Ayo (29:22):
Alright, bye for now.
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