September 27, 2022 • 46 mins
Black Feathers’ hosts Crystal and Shauna discuss the importance of mental health with Johnna James, citizen of Chickasaw Nation, who will talk about her family’s journey with disability, mental health and suicide. If you are having a mental health crisis please visit 988 Crisis Lifeline or call 988. For additional resources visit blackfeathers.org
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Episode Transcript
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Crystal Hernandez (00:00):
Welcome to Black Feathers podcast, a true
(00:02):
and honest conversation aboutdisabilities for all. I'm your
host, Dr. Crystal Hernandez fromthe Cherokee Nation,
Shauna Humphreys (00:09):
and I am Shawna Humphreys from Choctaw
Nation.
Crystal Hernandez (00:12):
Today we will discuss the importance of mental
health at the intersections ofdisability within our tribal
nations. We will hear fromJohnna James and her personal
journey with mental health,suicide, as well as disabilities
within her family.
(00:59):
Johnna, I know you have anincredible story. And we are so
thrilled to have you here, beingable to share this with our
listeners, as well as Shauna andmyself.
Joanna James (01:10):
Thank you guys for having me. So I do have a lot of
stories that narrate my life.
And one of the reasons I'mexcited to share is because to
me, it's a roadmap that I'vebeen given. So I'm going to
start with my name is JonnaJames, Chickasa Saya, I am a
citizen of the Chickasaw Nation.
And I do a lot of things Iworked in behavioral health,
(01:31):
I've worked in suicideprevention. I've been an Indian
Child Welfare caseworker.
Currently, I work at a tribalserving institution where I do
student recruitment serve on theexecutive team for the college,
as well as teach in AmericanIndian Studies course. So again,
lots of work in Indian country.
But my most favorite purposesare being and Ishki and Iposi,
(01:54):
see, so I get to be a mom and Iget to be a grandma. I am a mom
to six children, five I gavebirth to and one that I adopted.
So my five children by birth areChickasaw, my adopted child is a
Choctaw member. And that's whatI really want to talk about
today. Because, like so manythat work in the behavioral
health field, you know, there'sa story for my family and, and
(02:17):
the path that we have been onand, and how that has played out
for us. And I want to startwith, I was married to my high
school sweetheart. We gotmarried when we were 20 years
old, I did go to college, and Ihad planned the perfect college
plan and and we had this roadmapthat we created, we started
having children younger thanwe'd expected due to some health
(02:40):
problems. And that I didn't wantto miss my chance of being a
mom. So we made the decision togo ahead start having children
when I was 21 years old. Andthen from there, we had three
children in the following. Ourchildren were all two years
apart. So I noticed with mythird child, there was some
developmental delays. And I wasthinking there cannot possibly
(03:03):
be something wrong with all ofmy children, we've all they all
had some sort of struggles. Themiddle child at the time had a
speech impediment. And so I gottheir doctor's records. And I
went through all of them. And Iwent to their pediatrician, I
said, explain all of this. Andso he ran some tests and found
out that my children had leadpoisoning. And we had built a
(03:27):
brand new home. So we couldn'treally figure out where the lead
poisoning came from. Thegovernment got involved at that
point, of course, because that'swhat they do when when lead
poisoned children happened inthe state of Oklahoma. And
through that investigation, wefound that my husband's employee
at the time, there was a leadbase coolant that he was working
(03:50):
with. And we did not know thatand then our home had become
contaminated. There were a lotof people involved in our life
from there. And in that journey,we found out that the lead
poisoning had led to ourchildren's developmental delays.
They were seen at a young ChildStudy Center, and all three of
them received autism diagnosis.
So at that time, it was calledpervasive development disorder,
(04:13):
not others, but not otherwisespecified. And our third child,
the one that was struggling somuch, how to IQ that made her
borderline. And so she was goingto have lifelong struggles. We
were devastated, of course, butwe got intervention. We got
therapists, we did pet parentchild interaction therapy, we
did everything that wasavailable that child's at now.
(04:36):
They just turned 18 ActuallyAugust 2 And so, um, but we got
all the interventions andservices that was available, you
know, 15 years ago to help thesekids and, and help us and I want
to say right off the bat, withthe children receiving their
diagnosis early on. My thoughtprocess was not that these
diagnosis were about what waswrong with my children. I Um, it
(04:59):
was for me an explanation of howmy children navigate this world
and my job going forward astheir mom was going to be to
learn their navigation maps,they just see the world in a
different and what I havelearned beautiful way than I,
and most people do. So went onto have we adopted a child and
then had two more children, wejust went on as the normal
(05:22):
family trying to navigate lifeas you do. But then in 2013, we
lost my mother to suicide. Andso again, we sought out
behavioral health services wehad were members of the
Chickasaw Nation, who did anamazing job coming in and
helping our family. We hadcoordinated services for the
children to help them navigateall things school. Because you
(05:43):
know, when when a trauma likethat, it really rocks every area
of your life is what we learned.
I noticed that my youngest childcontinued to have struggles
continue to have outburstscontinue to have behavioral
health struggles, continue tohave at school struggles. And
(06:03):
the more they struggle, the morebehavioral health services read,
we reached out for one of thethings about this, this, my
youngest is, they were alwayssuper smart. And and so to me, I
didn't understand. You know,everything that we were trying,
nothing seemed to be working.
And then last December, we wentto a psychologist, and I was
(06:27):
devastated. When my 14 year old,she's 14, at the time, was
diagnosed with Level Two autism.
What had happened was because Iwas a mom to three other
autistic children. I had justintervened in my youngest
(06:48):
child's every time I saw themstruggle, I would, you know,
adjust and do the things that Ilearned early on. And what
happened is between my childmasking and my own personal
interventions, we just wentundiagnosed. One of the things
that that they had, that wasreally a struggle was they would
(07:09):
always tell me, they would getupset and overwhelmed, and they
couldn't tell me what's goingon. And they would say, Mom, I
want to tell you, I just can'ttalk. They said that so many
times. And what I was hearingwas, I don't know how to share
my emotions. Or maybe I'm anintrovert. That's what I thought
for the longest time that thissixth child out of this family
of extroverts was an introvert.
These were the things I wasthinking all of this time and,
(07:30):
and what we found out duringtheir diagnosis is when they are
in overwhelm, they go nonverbal,they literally are not able to
talk. This explains so much itexplained why in therapy, when
we would get to the heartthings, they would not be able
to talk and what we were sayingwas, well, they're shutting
(07:54):
down, they're shutting downtheir emotions, they're not able
to share with us, we didn'trealize that they in that
moment, were nonverbal andunable to communicate with us.
And this is the story I want toshare, I want to share because I
feel like especially in myinteractions with Crystal, we
have talked about or Dr.
Hernandez My apologies. Whatwe've talked about is the
(08:17):
intersection of autism andbehavioral health services. And
what does that mean. And thatwas one of the things a
psychologist helped us navigatein December was to find a
therapist that knows how tonavigate autism, because people
with autism need differentapproaches sometimes, so that
their therapy will work.
Sometimes regular talk Therapyor CBT therapy is not what's
(08:41):
appropriate for for them. Andthat's another thing I learned
with all of my children, eventhough they have these, these
autism diagnosis, they eachstill operate and navigate life
differently. Like just becausethere's five children with
autism diagnosis does not mean Ihave five children that all act
the same way. They each havedifferent behaviors, and and
(09:04):
again, different roadmaps andhow they learn and how they
communicate.
And so that's that's just wherewe're at today. And, you know, I
had to work through a lot ofguilt as a mom not recognizing
what was going on with myyoungest child until they were
(09:24):
14 years old. And now I've hadothers also share their
experience of not beingdiagnosed with autism until
later in life. And I'm not thereyet. I will be in October. But
what I learned through mychildren also is some of the
things that I do are also traitsof autism. And so I do have that
(09:46):
evaluation in October and thathas taken a year to get to that
because there's just not enoughservices out there. And and even
for adults, those services wereout set out for a year a year.
and a half. And so learning ifif some of these things are also
kind of what's going on or ormaybe there were some things
(10:09):
that made more sense in mychildhood, that that didn't make
sense then. And so we'reexploring that path as well,
but, but I've had to reconcilewith myself as a mom. What I
didn't know. And I have a friendthat Choctaw that works in
behavioral health, and she hadtold me many years ago, when I
(10:29):
was working, first working assuicide prevention grant, I met
her. And there were some thingsI was going to be learning that
I did not know. And I hadalready lost my mom to suicide,
and she shared with me, you'regonna hear some things that you
did not know when you lost yourmom. And it may make you feel
some kind of way, like, Oh, whydidn't I see that like, one of
(10:50):
the things was, maybe thatpeople that are struggling with
suicidal ideation may startgiving their belongings away.
And that was the case with mymom, she had given away some of
her jewelry. But the advice myfriend had given me at the time
was, as you're learning thesethings, there's a Maya Angelou
quote, she wanted me to rememberand it was we do the best we can
(11:10):
until we know better. And thenwhen we know better, we just do
better. And I hang on to that,quote, I have through this
journey of the last 10 years,working with my family, as we
have tried to find balance andhealing. We can't go back to the
past and change some things thatwe can. As we learn to do
(11:32):
better, we can do better. And,and that is also what has
inspired me to share our storybecause I learned better by
those that were willing to sharewith me, and, and so if it can
help somebody else that'sstruggling with autism and
struggling with healing,however, you're seeking those
(11:53):
services, to just know not togive up, we just have to find
the roadmap to how we navigateand how our children navigate
things. Until we find whatworks.
Crystal Hernandez (12:05):
Thank you for sharing that Gianna. It was it
was very insightful and brave.
And I know we've shared you andI together a lot of pieces of
our children's stories. And andwe have worked in those cross
sections of mental health, aswell as intellectual
developmental disability spaces,you know, so I do have a
question for you. So you talkedabout how you navigated those
(12:25):
those interventions early on?
Did you find any gaps or anyopportunities within your tribe
that really understooddevelopmental disabilities or
screenings? Or any of thosethings? Or, or do you think that
we've evolved and grown over thethe two decades,
Joanna James (12:45):
we have certainly grown and unfortunately, it was
not on my I didn't think toreach out to my tribe at that
time. So we went through localservices, and I feel like the
local services were great, butback then it was very, it was
mostly parent child interactiontherapy. And and I think that,
(13:08):
that that's important, becausethe difference in those from my
experience in difference inthose is, when we did parent
child interaction therapy, itwas we would all sit in a room
and I would sit in there with mychildren, and they would behave
a certain way. And then theywould teach me how to react to
them, or interact with thembased on their different
behaviors. And, for example, thethe child that had the speech
(13:30):
impediment, so she has autism,but also has a diagnosis of
apraxia. And so, you know,navigating how to communicate
with that child, teaching themsome sign languages. And so
those were some of the things Iwas taught then, what I see now
it's more of a person centeredapproach where they're working
with the person with autism. AndI think that that's more
(13:53):
appropriate, because you can'tgo through life with my
children, like I can't always bethere to hold my hold their hand
and navigate for them. Theydeserve to know how to navigate
situations themselves more,working directly with the
autistic person, and teachingthem social interactions, how to
cope. We're doing that with my14 year old right now. You know,
(14:18):
when they go into overwhelm, andboth how they're interacting
with the people around them whenthey're in overwhelm, and how
they are interacting insidethemselves, because their
narrative in the past towardsthemselves when they couldn't
interact. Was there somethingwrong with me and I must be
worthless, and now they'relearning. I'm in overwhelm right
now. And I deserve to be calm,and I deserve to take my time
(14:41):
and do whatever it takes to becalm. I can remove myself from
the situation, all of the thingsthey're learning to be to be
easier on themselves. And so Ifeel like we've come a long ways
I feel like the approach doesneed to be aimed at helping the
autistic person I take care ofthemselves, and also not to
(15:03):
change them, my children willalways be autistic, there's not
a cure for autism. And so toteach them to be successful in
this world, as they are, I thinkis just one of the best things
that has changed and could havehappened.
Crystal Hernandez (15:19):
Absolutely.
So you said two things I justwant to circle back on, you
talked about being becomingnonverbal. And so we look at a
lot of the the research and thedata, specifically related to
the autistic population, andthat 50% On average, are
nonverbal. And, and really nonspeaking, right. And then during
times of distress or stress,they an additional portion of
(15:42):
them lose that ability toverbalize. And so when I say
that, it doesn't take away allthe other methods of
communication that they do haveat their disposal, and that they
do often use. And so what I'mtalking about is traditional
expected verbal ability. And,and so we do know that, and you
mentioned that, and so I justwanted to kind of, you know,
(16:03):
chime in on that. And the otherthing that we, that you
mentioned was the intersectionof mental illness, and autism.
And so again, looking at a lotof that statistic, in that
research, it talks about thepresence of 78% co occurring
rate among those twopopulations. And so a lot of our
traditional mental healthsystems do not account for
(16:26):
autistic individuals, meaningthat they don't understand they
lack the training, they lack thesophistication and policy to
really have equity, and tounderstand that they should
could and, and it's imperativethat they serve this population
Joanna James (16:48):
Absolutely in and we have dealt with a wide range
of behavioral health issuesamong all of the children. So I
don't want to talk about any ofthem specifically, that's their
own story. But for some of thethings that we have seen are
include depression, they haveincluded self harm, they have
included anxiety. And I feellike there is a direct
(17:11):
correlation between thetraumatic experience of being
autistic in a world that doesn'tmake space for autistic people.
The dialogue that they haveshared with me, based on
interactions like they've had atschool, and even how maybe some
of their own educators havetalked to them, or treated them,
(17:34):
or use the wrong word in frontof them. And then they've
internalized that story. Andthat is one thing about children
is they they will make up anarrative if we're if we're not
helping them. And sometimes thatcan be a very negative
narrative, and that that'straumatic it. You know, when you
go through life thinking, I'mworthless, or I'm weird, or I'm
(17:56):
not accepted, or I don't haveany friends, or one of my
children really struggled withmaking friends. And they, they
say, Mom, I just want onefriend. And that broke my heart.
So yes, I feel like so many oftheir struggles, on the
behavioral health side andmental illness. They're locked
(18:20):
in, in their own world trying tonavigate. And we just have to do
better, I think, to help them.
So it's not so traumatic forthem. That's something we can do
is take some of that on forthem.
Crystal Hernandez (18:33):
Absolutely, absolutely. And you mentioned a
few times some of the work thatyou've done in the field of
suicide in the area of suicide,and also some personal
experience with that. And so ourautistic community as a as at a
massively higher rate ofsuicidal ideation and
contemplation, as well ascompleted suicides. And again,
(18:54):
oftentimes, they're left out ofprevention efforts, they're left
out of any kind of marketingcampaign, any sort of, you know,
place within the suicideprevention world. And so that's
another area we can definitelydo better and should do better.
So I just want to bring it backto real quick the the tribal
(19:17):
systems because I know, youdidn't use them with your
kiddos. But moving forward, youdefinitely work among tribal
nations routinely. And so do yousee, what do you see in terms of
the behavioral health space andthe mental health space? Even
the artistic space within thetribal nations that you're,
(19:38):
you're have, you know, work withand have knowledge of?
Joanna James (19:42):
So I will say in the last 10 years, we have
accessed our behavioral healthresources through our tribe and
they have been amazing. They'rethe ones that stepped in to help
the kids after my mom's suicideloss and and what I see with all
of our tribes, I see that Um,well, I'll say on a federal
(20:02):
level starting with there's wehave these Native Connections
grants I was I was in that fieldworking with the tribe, when the
Native Connections grants werecreated back in, I want to say
that would probably have been2015 or 16. And we have more
funding services and sources,and our tribes are really able
(20:22):
to reach their communitymembers, especially through the
Native Connections grant, whichis a really hot community center
grant. And so I, I see ourtribes being innovative. I, I
brag on them all of the time,especially in Oklahoma, because
those are the ones that I do seetheir stories. I there's one
(20:46):
tribe that is using stick ballsprevention. And in the way that
they explain that to me isthey're teaching their children
how to be part of theirindigenous community, by playing
stickball with them. They'reteaching them what a leader
looks like what a team playerlooks like. So they're using a
game, but at the same time,being intentional to teach that
child how to be included incommunity and how to include
(21:08):
others. And I think that's justbeautiful. We know that our
culture is prevention. You know,I, I have heard, I was told
that, you know, culture is likea fish in water. You don't the
fish doesn't realize it lives inwater until you take it out. And
(21:28):
I feel like culture is that wayfor our people, you know, you
don't realize how important itis until you're not in it. And
so that's what I, what I mostlyappreciate with the tribes and
how they are reacting to, to allthings behavioral health right
now is that focus on communityand belonging and taking part in
your indigenous ways. So I'mgrateful to both all our tribes
(21:50):
that were at thoseconsultations, as well as the
agencies within the state ofOklahoma that that made that
possible so that our autisticchildren have access to
services. So I see our tribesout there, constantly trying to
make it better.
Crystal Hernandez (22:03):
Perfect. So I know Shauna does a tremendous
amount of work within hertribal, mental health systems.
And so I'm just curious, Shauna,what are your thoughts about the
stories that we just heard? Andkind of, you know, how we've
evolved as tribal nations andthe focus and emphasis that we
have now moving forward on onwellness and how we perceive
(22:26):
mental health and thoseintersections?
Shauna Humphreys (22:29):
Yeah, so a couple of things come to mind.
First of all, Johnna, it's, it'sa pleasure to have you and I
know we've done work together insuicide prevention in the past.
And that's kind of where part ofmy journey started with suicide
prevention was working alongsideJohnna and at that time, I
believe it was the Wichitaaffiliated tribes that Johnna
(22:49):
was working for. And we wereboth doing the SAMSA GLS, the
Garrett Lee Smith, suicideinitiative. But one thing that,
to me, culturally, culture isprevention. I love how you said
that Johnna in Choctaw Nation isone of those that is using
stickball as prevention, to givethat sense of belonging, but
also the storytelling. So whatyou just did right now, you
(23:11):
know, culturally, this is how welearn. This is how we spread
awareness. And this is how wecarry our traditions is by
storytelling. I feel like thetribes have really come a long
way, just like John has said, inas our work both in mental
health and with autism, we'restill a long way to go. But I
(23:32):
feel like when I first startedback with behavioral health, I
guess it's been about eightyears ago, always been in the
mental health field. But backwith the actual department, you
know, behavioral with ChoctawNation, we didn't really have a
whole lot of, we had someprograms going out into the
community kind of helping spreadawareness. But really, with the
tomorrow's wholegrain is where Inoticed some systems change,
(23:55):
like occurring, like we startedscreening people that come into
the clinic, using PHQ9 in theColumbia, because we knew that
not everyone would set foot atthe behavioral health buildings.
And so it's like, how do wetruly, you know, help people and
meet them where they are. And soit's like, well, let's just
let's go to them and providethat holistic care. And so now
(24:18):
we've seen integrated startingto occur, then that kind of
happened through part of theNative Connections grant that
John was talking about. And wejust, I just continue to see the
vision for our tribes grow andgrow and tap into that culture
as prevention. Because like Ijust said, whenever you're an
integrated, you're treating notjust the physical piece, but now
(24:40):
that we're screening for suicideand for depression, you're
treating the mental healthpiece. And so you know, Mind
Body Soul, we're kind of gettingthat that connection and, and
truly meeting people wherethey're at. creating harmony is
also kind of what I say. Butyeah, but that's kind of it what
(25:00):
I've been noticing and what I'veencountered over the years, and
I just hope to see it continueto grow.
Crystal Hernandez (25:07):
So you both have mentioned connectedness and
kind of that connectivity. Andyou know, as we embrace a
connected view, as people, youknow, we draw on our ancestors,
our community, our stories, ourcustoms, our history, you know,
in, in all of this can and doesshape our world, right, our
perceptions and our people as awhole. And it's these very
(25:30):
elements that often serve asprotective factors. And that's
what people oftentimes don'ttalk about, you know, among
among our tribes, is that wehave a tremendous amount of
protective factors, whichexplain and highlight our
resiliency as people in ourstrength. And this really does
shine the light on theincredible strides we have seen
(25:50):
among our tribal nations. As wehave grown and placed a strong
emphasis on mental health, yousee tribal nation stepping
forward, saying we are going toallocate we are going to build,
we want to be at the table, andwe want our people to thrive and
be healthy. And that'sfantastic.
Joanna James (26:08):
So I want to tell another story, and I should have
invited her with me, she's nothere today, but my 20 year old,
she was 13 at the time, she losther grandmother, so a real
significant age and she wasclose to my mother and Chickasaw
Nation helped her through herbehavioral health journey. And
they did a commercial with her,you know, after I mean, she
(26:30):
worked hard at her healing andshe also has an autism diagnosis
and, and then she went on tobecome a mentor for we are
native, which is a nationalorganization for Native youth
and she was an ambassador, sothey choose 30 ambassadors in
the United States, and she waschosen to be one of them. And,
(26:50):
and then she went on to collegelast year. It was her first year
in college. And you know, sheknows she's autistic she she's
always done whatever help hasbeen provided she she takes it
for, for all it's worth and doeseverything she can to implement
those coping skills in. So goingthrough the Chickasaw Nation
behavioral health she was taughta lot she was taught about
(27:13):
beading, she was she was doingher therapy and she was taught
the connection to our ancestorsand and just real connected to
her culture. And so she remainsconnected to her culture today
and and still now she's outspeaking to others about
generational trauma and so superproud of her journey. But last
year, she was struggling atcollege and she called me and
(27:35):
she said, Mom, I went outsideand I saw the Te Ata statue. So
Te Ata Fisher was a storytellerfor the Chickasaw Nation. And
you can watch the movie over TeAta, she was an amazing role
model. And she went to USAO,when it was Oklahoma College for
Women, and that was, that is thecollege my daughter goes to and
she said, Mom, it was hard. AndI just was ready to quit. And I
(27:58):
walked outside, and I saw takeout a statue today. And I
remember that if she can dothis, so can I. And I said,
Alyssa, this is exactly why wedo why we get to do what we do.
And and I'm like I said, I'm soproud of her. She, she does the
children's conference every yearfor the Oklahoma Department of
Mental Health, she hasdefinitely gone on to share her
story in so many spaces, but Ijust want to share that. Because
(28:24):
it goes to talk about thatconnection and how empowering
and healing it can be when it'sjust give it to them. I mean,
somebody took the time to giveall of this to her. And she has
just run with it. And now she'sgetting to impact others. And so
yeah, there's definitely aconnection there. And the more
connected we are, I feel likethe better chance our children
(28:47):
have at succeeding.
Crystal Hernandez (28:50):
That's beautiful. Thank you for sharing
that she sounds like such atremendously strong woman. And I
bet you're so happy as a mom tosee that in her.
Joanna James (29:01):
I am and in not just as a mom, but I think one
of my favorite things aboutbeing a mom is learning. Like
the journey of being a parent isto watch your children find who
they are. And so I have somekids that, you know, their
native identity is not right atthe top. They all know they're
Chickasaw, but that's not butfor this one it is but I see
(29:22):
that, you know, especially withautistic children, helping them
each find their own thing onceinto astronomy. One has become a
is a stagehand on a dramaticdrama production at school,
helping them each plug intotheir thing and watching them
just bloom and I've seen thatwith her and I'm excited and
honored to get to watch the restof them grow up and and I think
(29:46):
that's just also been key totheir successes is finding where
their passion is at and justencouraging that
I was thinking after Crystal hadsaid about the high suicide
(30:16):
rates with autistic people. Sovery gently, I want to say about
autism. And my experience withworking with youth with autism
is the literal nature of howthey process. And so also having
that suicide preventionbackground. And so having I've
(30:37):
had a youth tell me when we werehaving a conversation about
suicide, them saying, I cansuicide if I want to, it's my
body. And I think that that'ssomething we have to take into
consideration with our youththat are autistic. And I think
this is why the cams model is soimportant, we have to understand
(31:01):
that, yes, suicide can happen.
And when you are a person thatprocesses everything literal.
Crystal Hernandez (31:08):
So what we see a lot of times is is you
know, individuals who areartistic, yes, they're all very
different from one another, butsome of the commonalities that
we see is the way that they thatthey do process, the literal
nature of the world. And and,you know, I talk about this
quite often that we have a worldthat was created by people with
so many vast differences,including individuals who, who
(31:31):
were autistic, that that reallyshaped our sciences, or arts or
music or philosophies. But yetour world doesn't embrace them,
and doesn't include them. And sothere's a lot of pressure on on
folks. And you know, so you havedifferences. So you have some
people who have the anxiety havethe depression, who have you
(31:51):
know, that exhaustion frommasking constantly of trying to
be what the world wants. Andthen you have the other that you
just mentioned about, you know,that literal nature of process
that I, I make these decisionsbecause I can, and, you know, I
was at a meeting for autism atthe state capitol. And it was
(32:12):
really about raising action andawareness and inclusion. And it
was a virtual one due to COVID.
That year, and we had atremendous amount of
representation of autisticadults on that virtual meeting.
And the topic of suicide wasbrought up. And it was one of
those moments where they werereferencing having an autistic
adult meeting with variousmembers from various places. And
(32:33):
that overwhelmingly, the numberof hands that went up, when they
were asked, How many of youcontemplated taking your life
was overwhelming andfrightening. But again, it goes
back to, we are not learning andwe are not growing, and we are
not evolving the way that we dosuicide prevention. And we have
to,
Joanna James (32:57):
I think that you said that, so very well and
completely, we have to look athow others process things, and
make sure that we're developinggoals and initiatives that are
adjusted to their way of life.
Because they my experience withmy autistic children is they
(33:19):
have beautiful navigationsystems, but they're different.
And so therefore, they theyrequire some different services
and different approaches. Andthey deserve that. And so I'm
with you on that, I think thatwe have a long way to go. And it
starts with this awareness thatwe need more services that are
appropriate to those that justnavigate life differently than
(33:40):
the rest of us.
Crystal Hernandez (33:42):
And imagine all of that what we just
discussed with those differentroadmaps, those different
systems, those differentnavigation systems, and throw in
the fact that some of us arewithin tribal nations navigating
trying through that system, whenwe're getting roadblocked in
addition to those roadblocks.
And so it's it's a double it's adouble walk, you know,
Joanna James (34:06):
I agree and I think on the other side of that
is for those that are indigenousthat maybe don't have access to
their tribal behavior health ornot close by are those services
aren't available. So there havenot operate within systems where
they're not getting the mostculturally appropriate services
that that can recognizehistorical trauma. So yeah,
there's lots of layers to that.
And I think it's just time tostart becoming aware of some of
(34:26):
those so we can address them.
Crystal Hernandez (34:29):
Fantastic.
Well, thank you Johnna, forsharing all of your stories and
for having an open and honestconversation with us, about your
family and yourself really. AndI think that everything that you
do, personally andprofessionally just shapes and
helps so many people. So thankyou so much for everything that
you do.
(35:00):
I am who I was created to be, ifI was meant to be someone or
something else, the GreatCreator would have made me such.
He put within me certain giftssuch as my heart, my mind, my
senses, and my soul. I am who Iwas created to be. This is an
unknown native chief.
(35:27):
We talked a lot about mentalhealth and navigating some some
systems today. And I want totalk about some barriers. And
again, when we talk about tribalnation, some are very different
from others. And some havedifferent geographical barriers,
some have funding barriers, somehave more opportunities. And so
we're just going to talk aboutsome generalized kind of
(35:48):
barriers, you know, that areoften mentioned in any
publication, any sort ofpresentation. And it talks
about, you know, thoseinadequate funding and coverage
issues, as well as a traditionalmistrust related to that
historical trauma. And the bigone I want to talk about is the
lack of cultural respect andtrue inclusion, sometimes you'll
(36:11):
hear them talk about culturalcompetency. But really, what it
boils down to is a lack of, ofinclusion and a lack of
representation. And so we don'thave a lot of mental health
providers who are representingour tribal nations as people and
then subsequently asprofessionals. And we do see
(36:33):
that oftentimes mentioned as asubstantial barrier that kind of
lends to all the things the lackof understanding the mistrust,
and kind of that dismissivesometimes nature. What do you
Shauna Humphreys (36:45):
So you're spot on there, like just thinking
think about that,about behavioral health, with my
tribe, which is Choctaw Nation,you know, there's some of us
that are tribal, proud Choctawtribal members that did go to
school to become, you know,counselors and be in the
profession, but we still havequite a few that are not. The
beautiful thing I've noticed,with my tribe, though, is that
(37:06):
they're all willing to learn.
And so it starts kind of withproviding that education to
them. The you know, how ahistorical trauma is still in
play today. And those kinds ofthings. To me, one of the
biggest barriers, besides makingsure we provide that education
is the roll nature of theChoctaw Nation. So we're the
(37:28):
southeastern, you know, didn'thave counties of Oklahoma, very
rural often joke, like where Ilive, it's an hour in either
direction, just to your nearestWalmart. And so, like, being
able to get to your nearestclinic isn't always just right
down the road, like a lot ofpeople picture. And so that role
area definitely plays a factor,both with getting to care. And
(37:53):
then, you know, being rural,there's also limited Wi Fi
service, and those kinds ofthings in our area. I go to my
grandma's this day. And shelives in Smithville, Oklahoma,
which most people may not evenheard of, but there is no cell
phone service, like I get to herhouse, and I just don't expect
to get a call or text until I'mback in their range of, of cell
(38:14):
service. So there's just a lotof different factors that come
into play with living in a ruralarea. And that, to me, is
probably one of the biggestthings.
Crystal Hernandez (38:24):
Absolutely. I know, a lot of colleagues
throughout the different tribalnations, and they talk about
that, you know, rural nature, orthe lack of transportation or
connectivity, you know, a lot ofus take for granted, picking up
a smartphone or jumping on ourcomputers or tablets. And that's
not what everybody you know,wakes up to, a lot of folks
(38:46):
don't have that capability, youknow, especially during the
COVID, 19. You know, when theworld really went to telehealth
when we went to tele evaluationsand teletherapy. And we seem to
forget that not everybody hasthat opportunity. And what we
see is a huge gap and divide andyou know, in that accessibility
and that service level, and, youknow, we know what COVID did to
(39:10):
the world, you know, theisolation, the cut off the
trauma, the collective trauma,the anxiety and depression, the
suicidal rates that we've, youknow, witnessed, and in just
some of the domestic violenceand abuse and in all sorts of
things and then factor in beingcut off from, you know,
traditional therapeutic, youknow, services that some folks
(39:31):
might have relied on or, or evenmedications. And, and then we
wonder why, why we're why tribalnations have stepped forward and
said, No one's going to help uswe're going to help ourselves.
And so we've seen a tremendousamount of initiatives going
forward, not just withimplementing, you know, their
own behavioral health and mentalhealth services, but also trying
(39:51):
to figure out how to connect arefolks that live out in areas
that don't have connectivitywith Wi Fi and so you see a lot
of infrastructure emphasis onboth sides of that equation.
Shauna Humphreys (40:03):
Absolutely.
And, yeah, COVID really didhighlight that. And, you know,
as tribes, we're very collectiveculture. So, you know, we get
together as families, any chancewe get, and it's not just close,
immediate family, like, youknow, extended family, you know,
we all get together at greatgrandma's house, you know, for
instance, and it a lot of itcentered around food and
(40:24):
laughter. And during COVID, youknow, nobody could meet with
their families, but for, fortribes, we're, we're collective,
and we're always used to havingseveral people around us, it
definitely highlighted that.
And, you know, one thing I wasgoing to add on the piece about,
about food, you know, in myexperience with grants, you
(40:47):
know, and everything, that's onething that always is kind of
hard for me to wrap my mindaround, like, I understand
federal funding, and, and thingslike that. But when you're
provide federal funding for atribe, like one, one way that we
show love and respect to eachother is by feeding one another,
or at least my family does that.
But most grants do not allow thepurchase of food, and things
(41:08):
like that. And so I'm not onceagain, not necessarily
complaining about that, and I dounderstand how federal funds
work. But at the same time, it'slike, if we're wanting to be a
little more culturallyappropriate with different
things, and, and have thatawareness, you know, food is a
big part of who we are as well.
Crystal Hernandez (41:30):
You know, that's, it's interesting that
you mentioned that shadow,because that's a constant area
of concern that is raised when Italk to to various tribal
nations, is that the funding isavailable, but there's so many
gaps in their understanding ofhow our culture actually works.
And the things that wouldactually work to get to the
heart of the information neededto build systems for folks to
(41:54):
use appropriately, you know, andso it kind of goes back to the
things that are built, and thenthey get mad or expect us to
use, but they're not built withus for us in mind, you know, and
so there's barriers, automaticbarriers that kind of go up
instead of realizing that ourpeople are uniquely different
sometimes, and, and what mightwork for one group might not
(42:17):
work for the other. And so thatflexibility in that
understanding that youmentioned, is so important, and
I'm hoping that we are movingtowards shifting that
understanding, and reallycreating meaningful systems that
work. So I do want to talk,Shawn, if we can about stigma,
you know, because we know, whenpeople are going to access
(42:39):
services, specifically relatedto mental health, a lot of times
we still have that stigma of ofgoing through those doors, and I
know that you were, you werementioning that earlier, you
know, they might not want to goto behavioral health, they might
not want to be seen andbehavioral buildings and those
types of things. And so stigma,you know, has been a heavy focus
(42:59):
for everyone. And kind ofcombating that and really moving
us towards a place where we cansee mental health, the same way
that we see physical health, youknow, we go to doctors for
checkups, when we have a cold oror flu, we go to the doctor,
when we need vaccination, we goto the doctor, whatever. And so
that is still not the same formental health service, we still
(43:21):
have that stigma of I'm going tobe seen, I'm going to be judged
they won't understand or thatembarrassment or fear, or
whatever, you know, tacked on tothat historical trauma that, you
know, gap in service that, youknow, transportation issue, the
lack of representation, orwhatever. And so that
compounding stigma for ourpeople, among tribal nations
(43:44):
that are seeking mental healthservices is real. And it's
really large and deep
Shauna Humphreys (43:49):
it is it's very real. And sometimes I think
some of the thinking behind itis to is that, oh, I'm having to
reach out for help. You know,because our culture is kind of
based on strength and like yousaid, taking care of things
ourself. And so I think forsome, it's also just the fact
that they're having to reach outfor help. They don't, they don't
(44:09):
want to have to do that, eventhough it's so necessary, you
know, sometimes in life. Butyes, the stigma is, is is very
real. And one thing that I willsay that seems to be helping
break that stigma is thatintegrated care service that I
talked about earlier, it's wherea counselor comes into the visit
with you when you go to thedoctor. You know, we have a lot
(44:31):
more people open about that andtalking to a counselor while
they're at the doctor kind oftreating, you know, all three in
one place. But it still doesn'ttake you know, make up for the
fact of like going to thebehavioral health clinic for
other services. You know, thereyou're being screened, kind of
giving some really briefsolution focused coping skills
and tools, but really that longterm care and treatment still
(44:54):
occurs in the behavioral healthbuilding, but reaching out for
help is never a sign forweakness. Yes, but for so many
especially for our culture, insome ways it is seen that way
(45:15):
If you or someone you know isexperiencing a mental health
crisis call the 988 suicide andcrisis lifeline, which provides
confidential 24/7 support bydialing 988.
Crystal Hernandez (45:28):
Join us next time for a discussion of
developmental disabilities andhear stories from our wonderful
guest. So Black Feathers podcastis a podcast that will occur on
a monthly basis. We hope thatyou will listen subscribe and
follow us on social media. Thankyou to Cherokee National
Treasure Tommy Wildcat for theuse of your flute music on this
(45:49):
podcast.
Shauna Humphreys (45:51):
I want to thank Lukas Fraser and tha Boys
for letting us use theirdrumming music. Please subscribe
to black feathers podcast. Youcan find us wherever podcasts
are found.
Crystal Hernandez (46:00):
We would love to hear from you and invite you
to submit your stories andquestions. Until next time.
Shauna Humphreys (46:06):
Thank you for joining us on this month's
journey. Remember none of uswalk this alone. Together. We
are stronger and it is the rootsthat bind us. Follow us on black
feathers.org
Welcome to Black Feathers podcast, a true
(00:02):
and honest conversation aboutdisabilities for all. I'm your
host, Dr. Crystal Hernandez fromthe Cherokee Nation,
Shauna Humphreys (00:09):
and I am Shawna Humphreys from Choctaw
Nation.
Crystal Hernandez (00:12):
Today we will discuss the importance of mental
health at the intersections ofdisability within our tribal
nations. We will hear fromJohnna James and her personal
journey with mental health,suicide, as well as disabilities
within her family.
(00:59):
Johnna, I know you have anincredible story. And we are so
thrilled to have you here, beingable to share this with our
listeners, as well as Shauna andmyself.
Joanna James (01:10):
Thank you guys for having me. So I do have a lot of
stories that narrate my life.
And one of the reasons I'mexcited to share is because to
me, it's a roadmap that I'vebeen given. So I'm going to
start with my name is JonnaJames, Chickasa Saya, I am a
citizen of the Chickasaw Nation.
And I do a lot of things Iworked in behavioral health,
(01:31):
I've worked in suicideprevention. I've been an Indian
Child Welfare caseworker.
Currently, I work at a tribalserving institution where I do
student recruitment serve on theexecutive team for the college,
as well as teach in AmericanIndian Studies course. So again,
lots of work in Indian country.
But my most favorite purposesare being and Ishki and Iposi,
(01:54):
see, so I get to be a mom and Iget to be a grandma. I am a mom
to six children, five I gavebirth to and one that I adopted.
So my five children by birth areChickasaw, my adopted child is a
Choctaw member. And that's whatI really want to talk about
today. Because, like so manythat work in the behavioral
health field, you know, there'sa story for my family and, and
(02:17):
the path that we have been onand, and how that has played out
for us. And I want to startwith, I was married to my high
school sweetheart. We gotmarried when we were 20 years
old, I did go to college, and Ihad planned the perfect college
plan and and we had this roadmapthat we created, we started
having children younger thanwe'd expected due to some health
(02:40):
problems. And that I didn't wantto miss my chance of being a
mom. So we made the decision togo ahead start having children
when I was 21 years old. Andthen from there, we had three
children in the following. Ourchildren were all two years
apart. So I noticed with mythird child, there was some
developmental delays. And I wasthinking there cannot possibly
(03:03):
be something wrong with all ofmy children, we've all they all
had some sort of struggles. Themiddle child at the time had a
speech impediment. And so I gottheir doctor's records. And I
went through all of them. And Iwent to their pediatrician, I
said, explain all of this. Andso he ran some tests and found
out that my children had leadpoisoning. And we had built a
(03:27):
brand new home. So we couldn'treally figure out where the lead
poisoning came from. Thegovernment got involved at that
point, of course, because that'swhat they do when when lead
poisoned children happened inthe state of Oklahoma. And
through that investigation, wefound that my husband's employee
at the time, there was a leadbase coolant that he was working
(03:50):
with. And we did not know thatand then our home had become
contaminated. There were a lotof people involved in our life
from there. And in that journey,we found out that the lead
poisoning had led to ourchildren's developmental delays.
They were seen at a young ChildStudy Center, and all three of
them received autism diagnosis.
So at that time, it was calledpervasive development disorder,
(04:13):
not others, but not otherwisespecified. And our third child,
the one that was struggling somuch, how to IQ that made her
borderline. And so she was goingto have lifelong struggles. We
were devastated, of course, butwe got intervention. We got
therapists, we did pet parentchild interaction therapy, we
did everything that wasavailable that child's at now.
(04:36):
They just turned 18 ActuallyAugust 2 And so, um, but we got
all the interventions andservices that was available, you
know, 15 years ago to help thesekids and, and help us and I want
to say right off the bat, withthe children receiving their
diagnosis early on. My thoughtprocess was not that these
diagnosis were about what waswrong with my children. I Um, it
(04:59):
was for me an explanation of howmy children navigate this world
and my job going forward astheir mom was going to be to
learn their navigation maps,they just see the world in a
different and what I havelearned beautiful way than I,
and most people do. So went onto have we adopted a child and
then had two more children, wejust went on as the normal
(05:22):
family trying to navigate lifeas you do. But then in 2013, we
lost my mother to suicide. Andso again, we sought out
behavioral health services wehad were members of the
Chickasaw Nation, who did anamazing job coming in and
helping our family. We hadcoordinated services for the
children to help them navigateall things school. Because you
(05:43):
know, when when a trauma likethat, it really rocks every area
of your life is what we learned.
I noticed that my youngest childcontinued to have struggles
continue to have outburstscontinue to have behavioral
health struggles, continue tohave at school struggles. And
(06:03):
the more they struggle, the morebehavioral health services read,
we reached out for one of thethings about this, this, my
youngest is, they were alwayssuper smart. And and so to me, I
didn't understand. You know,everything that we were trying,
nothing seemed to be working.
And then last December, we wentto a psychologist, and I was
(06:27):
devastated. When my 14 year old,she's 14, at the time, was
diagnosed with Level Two autism.
What had happened was because Iwas a mom to three other
autistic children. I had justintervened in my youngest
(06:48):
child's every time I saw themstruggle, I would, you know,
adjust and do the things that Ilearned early on. And what
happened is between my childmasking and my own personal
interventions, we just wentundiagnosed. One of the things
that that they had, that wasreally a struggle was they would
(07:09):
always tell me, they would getupset and overwhelmed, and they
couldn't tell me what's goingon. And they would say, Mom, I
want to tell you, I just can'ttalk. They said that so many
times. And what I was hearingwas, I don't know how to share
my emotions. Or maybe I'm anintrovert. That's what I thought
for the longest time that thissixth child out of this family
of extroverts was an introvert.
These were the things I wasthinking all of this time and,
(07:30):
and what we found out duringtheir diagnosis is when they are
in overwhelm, they go nonverbal,they literally are not able to
talk. This explains so much itexplained why in therapy, when
we would get to the heartthings, they would not be able
to talk and what we were sayingwas, well, they're shutting
(07:54):
down, they're shutting downtheir emotions, they're not able
to share with us, we didn'trealize that they in that
moment, were nonverbal andunable to communicate with us.
And this is the story I want toshare, I want to share because I
feel like especially in myinteractions with Crystal, we
have talked about or Dr.
Hernandez My apologies. Whatwe've talked about is the
(08:17):
intersection of autism andbehavioral health services. And
what does that mean. And thatwas one of the things a
psychologist helped us navigatein December was to find a
therapist that knows how tonavigate autism, because people
with autism need differentapproaches sometimes, so that
their therapy will work.
Sometimes regular talk Therapyor CBT therapy is not what's
(08:41):
appropriate for for them. Andthat's another thing I learned
with all of my children, eventhough they have these, these
autism diagnosis, they eachstill operate and navigate life
differently. Like just becausethere's five children with
autism diagnosis does not mean Ihave five children that all act
the same way. They each havedifferent behaviors, and and
(09:04):
again, different roadmaps andhow they learn and how they
communicate.
And so that's that's just wherewe're at today. And, you know, I
had to work through a lot ofguilt as a mom not recognizing
what was going on with myyoungest child until they were
(09:24):
14 years old. And now I've hadothers also share their
experience of not beingdiagnosed with autism until
later in life. And I'm not thereyet. I will be in October. But
what I learned through mychildren also is some of the
things that I do are also traitsof autism. And so I do have that
(09:46):
evaluation in October and thathas taken a year to get to that
because there's just not enoughservices out there. And and even
for adults, those services wereout set out for a year a year.
and a half. And so learning ifif some of these things are also
kind of what's going on or ormaybe there were some things
(10:09):
that made more sense in mychildhood, that that didn't make
sense then. And so we'reexploring that path as well,
but, but I've had to reconcilewith myself as a mom. What I
didn't know. And I have a friendthat Choctaw that works in
behavioral health, and she hadtold me many years ago, when I
(10:29):
was working, first working assuicide prevention grant, I met
her. And there were some thingsI was going to be learning that
I did not know. And I hadalready lost my mom to suicide,
and she shared with me, you'regonna hear some things that you
did not know when you lost yourmom. And it may make you feel
some kind of way, like, Oh, whydidn't I see that like, one of
(10:50):
the things was, maybe thatpeople that are struggling with
suicidal ideation may startgiving their belongings away.
And that was the case with mymom, she had given away some of
her jewelry. But the advice myfriend had given me at the time
was, as you're learning thesethings, there's a Maya Angelou
quote, she wanted me to rememberand it was we do the best we can
(11:10):
until we know better. And thenwhen we know better, we just do
better. And I hang on to that,quote, I have through this
journey of the last 10 years,working with my family, as we
have tried to find balance andhealing. We can't go back to the
past and change some things thatwe can. As we learn to do
(11:32):
better, we can do better. And,and that is also what has
inspired me to share our storybecause I learned better by
those that were willing to sharewith me, and, and so if it can
help somebody else that'sstruggling with autism and
struggling with healing,however, you're seeking those
(11:53):
services, to just know not togive up, we just have to find
the roadmap to how we navigateand how our children navigate
things. Until we find whatworks.
Crystal Hernandez (12:05):
Thank you for sharing that Gianna. It was it
was very insightful and brave.
And I know we've shared you andI together a lot of pieces of
our children's stories. And andwe have worked in those cross
sections of mental health, aswell as intellectual
developmental disability spaces,you know, so I do have a
question for you. So you talkedabout how you navigated those
(12:25):
those interventions early on?
Did you find any gaps or anyopportunities within your tribe
that really understooddevelopmental disabilities or
screenings? Or any of thosethings? Or, or do you think that
we've evolved and grown over thethe two decades,
Joanna James (12:45):
we have certainly grown and unfortunately, it was
not on my I didn't think toreach out to my tribe at that
time. So we went through localservices, and I feel like the
local services were great, butback then it was very, it was
mostly parent child interactiontherapy. And and I think that,
(13:08):
that that's important, becausethe difference in those from my
experience in difference inthose is, when we did parent
child interaction therapy, itwas we would all sit in a room
and I would sit in there with mychildren, and they would behave
a certain way. And then theywould teach me how to react to
them, or interact with thembased on their different
behaviors. And, for example, thethe child that had the speech
(13:30):
impediment, so she has autism,but also has a diagnosis of
apraxia. And so, you know,navigating how to communicate
with that child, teaching themsome sign languages. And so
those were some of the things Iwas taught then, what I see now
it's more of a person centeredapproach where they're working
with the person with autism. AndI think that that's more
(13:53):
appropriate, because you can'tgo through life with my
children, like I can't always bethere to hold my hold their hand
and navigate for them. Theydeserve to know how to navigate
situations themselves more,working directly with the
autistic person, and teachingthem social interactions, how to
cope. We're doing that with my14 year old right now. You know,
(14:18):
when they go into overwhelm, andboth how they're interacting
with the people around them whenthey're in overwhelm, and how
they are interacting insidethemselves, because their
narrative in the past towardsthemselves when they couldn't
interact. Was there somethingwrong with me and I must be
worthless, and now they'relearning. I'm in overwhelm right
now. And I deserve to be calm,and I deserve to take my time
(14:41):
and do whatever it takes to becalm. I can remove myself from
the situation, all of the thingsthey're learning to be to be
easier on themselves. And so Ifeel like we've come a long ways
I feel like the approach doesneed to be aimed at helping the
autistic person I take care ofthemselves, and also not to
(15:03):
change them, my children willalways be autistic, there's not
a cure for autism. And so toteach them to be successful in
this world, as they are, I thinkis just one of the best things
that has changed and could havehappened.
Crystal Hernandez (15:19):
Absolutely.
So you said two things I justwant to circle back on, you
talked about being becomingnonverbal. And so we look at a
lot of the the research and thedata, specifically related to
the autistic population, andthat 50% On average, are
nonverbal. And, and really nonspeaking, right. And then during
times of distress or stress,they an additional portion of
(15:42):
them lose that ability toverbalize. And so when I say
that, it doesn't take away allthe other methods of
communication that they do haveat their disposal, and that they
do often use. And so what I'mtalking about is traditional
expected verbal ability. And,and so we do know that, and you
mentioned that, and so I justwanted to kind of, you know,
(16:03):
chime in on that. And the otherthing that we, that you
mentioned was the intersectionof mental illness, and autism.
And so again, looking at a lotof that statistic, in that
research, it talks about thepresence of 78% co occurring
rate among those twopopulations. And so a lot of our
traditional mental healthsystems do not account for
(16:26):
autistic individuals, meaningthat they don't understand they
lack the training, they lack thesophistication and policy to
really have equity, and tounderstand that they should
could and, and it's imperativethat they serve this population
Joanna James (16:48):
Absolutely in and we have dealt with a wide range
of behavioral health issuesamong all of the children. So I
don't want to talk about any ofthem specifically, that's their
own story. But for some of thethings that we have seen are
include depression, they haveincluded self harm, they have
included anxiety. And I feellike there is a direct
(17:11):
correlation between thetraumatic experience of being
autistic in a world that doesn'tmake space for autistic people.
The dialogue that they haveshared with me, based on
interactions like they've had atschool, and even how maybe some
of their own educators havetalked to them, or treated them,
(17:34):
or use the wrong word in frontof them. And then they've
internalized that story. Andthat is one thing about children
is they they will make up anarrative if we're if we're not
helping them. And sometimes thatcan be a very negative
narrative, and that that'straumatic it. You know, when you
go through life thinking, I'mworthless, or I'm weird, or I'm
(17:56):
not accepted, or I don't haveany friends, or one of my
children really struggled withmaking friends. And they, they
say, Mom, I just want onefriend. And that broke my heart.
So yes, I feel like so many oftheir struggles, on the
behavioral health side andmental illness. They're locked
(18:20):
in, in their own world trying tonavigate. And we just have to do
better, I think, to help them.
So it's not so traumatic forthem. That's something we can do
is take some of that on forthem.
Crystal Hernandez (18:33):
Absolutely, absolutely. And you mentioned a
few times some of the work thatyou've done in the field of
suicide in the area of suicide,and also some personal
experience with that. And so ourautistic community as a as at a
massively higher rate ofsuicidal ideation and
contemplation, as well ascompleted suicides. And again,
(18:54):
oftentimes, they're left out ofprevention efforts, they're left
out of any kind of marketingcampaign, any sort of, you know,
place within the suicideprevention world. And so that's
another area we can definitelydo better and should do better.
So I just want to bring it backto real quick the the tribal
(19:17):
systems because I know, youdidn't use them with your
kiddos. But moving forward, youdefinitely work among tribal
nations routinely. And so do yousee, what do you see in terms of
the behavioral health space andthe mental health space? Even
the artistic space within thetribal nations that you're,
(19:38):
you're have, you know, work withand have knowledge of?
Joanna James (19:42):
So I will say in the last 10 years, we have
accessed our behavioral healthresources through our tribe and
they have been amazing. They'rethe ones that stepped in to help
the kids after my mom's suicideloss and and what I see with all
of our tribes, I see that Um,well, I'll say on a federal
(20:02):
level starting with there's wehave these Native Connections
grants I was I was in that fieldworking with the tribe, when the
Native Connections grants werecreated back in, I want to say
that would probably have been2015 or 16. And we have more
funding services and sources,and our tribes are really able
(20:22):
to reach their communitymembers, especially through the
Native Connections grant, whichis a really hot community center
grant. And so I, I see ourtribes being innovative. I, I
brag on them all of the time,especially in Oklahoma, because
those are the ones that I do seetheir stories. I there's one
(20:46):
tribe that is using stick ballsprevention. And in the way that
they explain that to me isthey're teaching their children
how to be part of theirindigenous community, by playing
stickball with them. They'reteaching them what a leader
looks like what a team playerlooks like. So they're using a
game, but at the same time,being intentional to teach that
child how to be included incommunity and how to include
(21:08):
others. And I think that's justbeautiful. We know that our
culture is prevention. You know,I, I have heard, I was told
that, you know, culture is likea fish in water. You don't the
fish doesn't realize it lives inwater until you take it out. And
(21:28):
I feel like culture is that wayfor our people, you know, you
don't realize how important itis until you're not in it. And
so that's what I, what I mostlyappreciate with the tribes and
how they are reacting to, to allthings behavioral health right
now is that focus on communityand belonging and taking part in
your indigenous ways. So I'mgrateful to both all our tribes
(21:50):
that were at thoseconsultations, as well as the
agencies within the state ofOklahoma that that made that
possible so that our autisticchildren have access to
services. So I see our tribesout there, constantly trying to
make it better.
Crystal Hernandez (22:03):
Perfect. So I know Shauna does a tremendous
amount of work within hertribal, mental health systems.
And so I'm just curious, Shauna,what are your thoughts about the
stories that we just heard? Andkind of, you know, how we've
evolved as tribal nations andthe focus and emphasis that we
have now moving forward on onwellness and how we perceive
(22:26):
mental health and thoseintersections?
Shauna Humphreys (22:29):
Yeah, so a couple of things come to mind.
First of all, Johnna, it's, it'sa pleasure to have you and I
know we've done work together insuicide prevention in the past.
And that's kind of where part ofmy journey started with suicide
prevention was working alongsideJohnna and at that time, I
believe it was the Wichitaaffiliated tribes that Johnna
(22:49):
was working for. And we wereboth doing the SAMSA GLS, the
Garrett Lee Smith, suicideinitiative. But one thing that,
to me, culturally, culture isprevention. I love how you said
that Johnna in Choctaw Nation isone of those that is using
stickball as prevention, to givethat sense of belonging, but
also the storytelling. So whatyou just did right now, you
(23:11):
know, culturally, this is how welearn. This is how we spread
awareness. And this is how wecarry our traditions is by
storytelling. I feel like thetribes have really come a long
way, just like John has said, inas our work both in mental
health and with autism, we'restill a long way to go. But I
(23:32):
feel like when I first startedback with behavioral health, I
guess it's been about eightyears ago, always been in the
mental health field. But backwith the actual department, you
know, behavioral with ChoctawNation, we didn't really have a
whole lot of, we had someprograms going out into the
community kind of helping spreadawareness. But really, with the
tomorrow's wholegrain is where Inoticed some systems change,
(23:55):
like occurring, like we startedscreening people that come into
the clinic, using PHQ9 in theColumbia, because we knew that
not everyone would set foot atthe behavioral health buildings.
And so it's like, how do wetruly, you know, help people and
meet them where they are. And soit's like, well, let's just
let's go to them and providethat holistic care. And so now
(24:18):
we've seen integrated startingto occur, then that kind of
happened through part of theNative Connections grant that
John was talking about. And wejust, I just continue to see the
vision for our tribes grow andgrow and tap into that culture
as prevention. Because like Ijust said, whenever you're an
integrated, you're treating notjust the physical piece, but now
(24:40):
that we're screening for suicideand for depression, you're
treating the mental healthpiece. And so you know, Mind
Body Soul, we're kind of gettingthat that connection and, and
truly meeting people wherethey're at. creating harmony is
also kind of what I say. Butyeah, but that's kind of it what
(25:00):
I've been noticing and what I'veencountered over the years, and
I just hope to see it continueto grow.
Crystal Hernandez (25:07):
So you both have mentioned connectedness and
kind of that connectivity. Andyou know, as we embrace a
connected view, as people, youknow, we draw on our ancestors,
our community, our stories, ourcustoms, our history, you know,
in, in all of this can and doesshape our world, right, our
perceptions and our people as awhole. And it's these very
(25:30):
elements that often serve asprotective factors. And that's
what people oftentimes don'ttalk about, you know, among
among our tribes, is that wehave a tremendous amount of
protective factors, whichexplain and highlight our
resiliency as people in ourstrength. And this really does
shine the light on theincredible strides we have seen
(25:50):
among our tribal nations. As wehave grown and placed a strong
emphasis on mental health, yousee tribal nation stepping
forward, saying we are going toallocate we are going to build,
we want to be at the table, andwe want our people to thrive and
be healthy. And that'sfantastic.
Joanna James (26:08):
So I want to tell another story, and I should have
invited her with me, she's nothere today, but my 20 year old,
she was 13 at the time, she losther grandmother, so a real
significant age and she wasclose to my mother and Chickasaw
Nation helped her through herbehavioral health journey. And
they did a commercial with her,you know, after I mean, she
(26:30):
worked hard at her healing andshe also has an autism diagnosis
and, and then she went on tobecome a mentor for we are
native, which is a nationalorganization for Native youth
and she was an ambassador, sothey choose 30 ambassadors in
the United States, and she waschosen to be one of them. And,
(26:50):
and then she went on to collegelast year. It was her first year
in college. And you know, sheknows she's autistic she she's
always done whatever help hasbeen provided she she takes it
for, for all it's worth and doeseverything she can to implement
those coping skills in. So goingthrough the Chickasaw Nation
behavioral health she was taughta lot she was taught about
(27:13):
beading, she was she was doingher therapy and she was taught
the connection to our ancestorsand and just real connected to
her culture. And so she remainsconnected to her culture today
and and still now she's outspeaking to others about
generational trauma and so superproud of her journey. But last
year, she was struggling atcollege and she called me and
(27:35):
she said, Mom, I went outsideand I saw the Te Ata statue. So
Te Ata Fisher was a storytellerfor the Chickasaw Nation. And
you can watch the movie over TeAta, she was an amazing role
model. And she went to USAO,when it was Oklahoma College for
Women, and that was, that is thecollege my daughter goes to and
she said, Mom, it was hard. AndI just was ready to quit. And I
(27:58):
walked outside, and I saw takeout a statue today. And I
remember that if she can dothis, so can I. And I said,
Alyssa, this is exactly why wedo why we get to do what we do.
And and I'm like I said, I'm soproud of her. She, she does the
children's conference every yearfor the Oklahoma Department of
Mental Health, she hasdefinitely gone on to share her
story in so many spaces, but Ijust want to share that. Because
(28:24):
it goes to talk about thatconnection and how empowering
and healing it can be when it'sjust give it to them. I mean,
somebody took the time to giveall of this to her. And she has
just run with it. And now she'sgetting to impact others. And so
yeah, there's definitely aconnection there. And the more
connected we are, I feel likethe better chance our children
(28:47):
have at succeeding.
Crystal Hernandez (28:50):
That's beautiful. Thank you for sharing
that she sounds like such atremendously strong woman. And I
bet you're so happy as a mom tosee that in her.
Joanna James (29:01):
I am and in not just as a mom, but I think one
of my favorite things aboutbeing a mom is learning. Like
the journey of being a parent isto watch your children find who
they are. And so I have somekids that, you know, their
native identity is not right atthe top. They all know they're
Chickasaw, but that's not butfor this one it is but I see
(29:22):
that, you know, especially withautistic children, helping them
each find their own thing onceinto astronomy. One has become a
is a stagehand on a dramaticdrama production at school,
helping them each plug intotheir thing and watching them
just bloom and I've seen thatwith her and I'm excited and
honored to get to watch the restof them grow up and and I think
(29:46):
that's just also been key totheir successes is finding where
their passion is at and justencouraging that
I was thinking after Crystal hadsaid about the high suicide
(30:16):
rates with autistic people. Sovery gently, I want to say about
autism. And my experience withworking with youth with autism
is the literal nature of howthey process. And so also having
that suicide preventionbackground. And so having I've
(30:37):
had a youth tell me when we werehaving a conversation about
suicide, them saying, I cansuicide if I want to, it's my
body. And I think that that'ssomething we have to take into
consideration with our youththat are autistic. And I think
this is why the cams model is soimportant, we have to understand
(31:01):
that, yes, suicide can happen.
And when you are a person thatprocesses everything literal.
Crystal Hernandez (31:08):
So what we see a lot of times is is you
know, individuals who areartistic, yes, they're all very
different from one another, butsome of the commonalities that
we see is the way that they thatthey do process, the literal
nature of the world. And and,you know, I talk about this
quite often that we have a worldthat was created by people with
so many vast differences,including individuals who, who
(31:31):
were autistic, that that reallyshaped our sciences, or arts or
music or philosophies. But yetour world doesn't embrace them,
and doesn't include them. And sothere's a lot of pressure on on
folks. And you know, so you havedifferences. So you have some
people who have the anxiety havethe depression, who have you
(31:51):
know, that exhaustion frommasking constantly of trying to
be what the world wants. Andthen you have the other that you
just mentioned about, you know,that literal nature of process
that I, I make these decisionsbecause I can, and, you know, I
was at a meeting for autism atthe state capitol. And it was
(32:12):
really about raising action andawareness and inclusion. And it
was a virtual one due to COVID.
That year, and we had atremendous amount of
representation of autisticadults on that virtual meeting.
And the topic of suicide wasbrought up. And it was one of
those moments where they werereferencing having an autistic
adult meeting with variousmembers from various places. And
(32:33):
that overwhelmingly, the numberof hands that went up, when they
were asked, How many of youcontemplated taking your life
was overwhelming andfrightening. But again, it goes
back to, we are not learning andwe are not growing, and we are
not evolving the way that we dosuicide prevention. And we have
to,
Joanna James (32:57):
I think that you said that, so very well and
completely, we have to look athow others process things, and
make sure that we're developinggoals and initiatives that are
adjusted to their way of life.
Because they my experience withmy autistic children is they
(33:19):
have beautiful navigationsystems, but they're different.
And so therefore, they theyrequire some different services
and different approaches. Andthey deserve that. And so I'm
with you on that, I think thatwe have a long way to go. And it
starts with this awareness thatwe need more services that are
appropriate to those that justnavigate life differently than
(33:40):
the rest of us.
Crystal Hernandez (33:42):
And imagine all of that what we just
discussed with those differentroadmaps, those different
systems, those differentnavigation systems, and throw in
the fact that some of us arewithin tribal nations navigating
trying through that system, whenwe're getting roadblocked in
addition to those roadblocks.
And so it's it's a double it's adouble walk, you know,
Joanna James (34:06):
I agree and I think on the other side of that
is for those that are indigenousthat maybe don't have access to
their tribal behavior health ornot close by are those services
aren't available. So there havenot operate within systems where
they're not getting the mostculturally appropriate services
that that can recognizehistorical trauma. So yeah,
there's lots of layers to that.
And I think it's just time tostart becoming aware of some of
(34:26):
those so we can address them.
Crystal Hernandez (34:29):
Fantastic.
Well, thank you Johnna, forsharing all of your stories and
for having an open and honestconversation with us, about your
family and yourself really. AndI think that everything that you
do, personally andprofessionally just shapes and
helps so many people. So thankyou so much for everything that
you do.
(35:00):
I am who I was created to be, ifI was meant to be someone or
something else, the GreatCreator would have made me such.
He put within me certain giftssuch as my heart, my mind, my
senses, and my soul. I am who Iwas created to be. This is an
unknown native chief.
(35:27):
We talked a lot about mentalhealth and navigating some some
systems today. And I want totalk about some barriers. And
again, when we talk about tribalnation, some are very different
from others. And some havedifferent geographical barriers,
some have funding barriers, somehave more opportunities. And so
we're just going to talk aboutsome generalized kind of
(35:48):
barriers, you know, that areoften mentioned in any
publication, any sort ofpresentation. And it talks
about, you know, thoseinadequate funding and coverage
issues, as well as a traditionalmistrust related to that
historical trauma. And the bigone I want to talk about is the
lack of cultural respect andtrue inclusion, sometimes you'll
(36:11):
hear them talk about culturalcompetency. But really, what it
boils down to is a lack of, ofinclusion and a lack of
representation. And so we don'thave a lot of mental health
providers who are representingour tribal nations as people and
then subsequently asprofessionals. And we do see
(36:33):
that oftentimes mentioned as asubstantial barrier that kind of
lends to all the things the lackof understanding the mistrust,
and kind of that dismissivesometimes nature. What do you
Shauna Humphreys (36:45):
So you're spot on there, like just thinking
think about that,about behavioral health, with my
tribe, which is Choctaw Nation,you know, there's some of us
that are tribal, proud Choctawtribal members that did go to
school to become, you know,counselors and be in the
profession, but we still havequite a few that are not. The
beautiful thing I've noticed,with my tribe, though, is that
(37:06):
they're all willing to learn.
And so it starts kind of withproviding that education to
them. The you know, how ahistorical trauma is still in
play today. And those kinds ofthings. To me, one of the
biggest barriers, besides makingsure we provide that education
is the roll nature of theChoctaw Nation. So we're the
(37:28):
southeastern, you know, didn'thave counties of Oklahoma, very
rural often joke, like where Ilive, it's an hour in either
direction, just to your nearestWalmart. And so, like, being
able to get to your nearestclinic isn't always just right
down the road, like a lot ofpeople picture. And so that role
area definitely plays a factor,both with getting to care. And
(37:53):
then, you know, being rural,there's also limited Wi Fi
service, and those kinds ofthings in our area. I go to my
grandma's this day. And shelives in Smithville, Oklahoma,
which most people may not evenheard of, but there is no cell
phone service, like I get to herhouse, and I just don't expect
to get a call or text until I'mback in their range of, of cell
(38:14):
service. So there's just a lotof different factors that come
into play with living in a ruralarea. And that, to me, is
probably one of the biggestthings.
Crystal Hernandez (38:24):
Absolutely. I know, a lot of colleagues
throughout the different tribalnations, and they talk about
that, you know, rural nature, orthe lack of transportation or
connectivity, you know, a lot ofus take for granted, picking up
a smartphone or jumping on ourcomputers or tablets. And that's
not what everybody you know,wakes up to, a lot of folks
(38:46):
don't have that capability, youknow, especially during the
COVID, 19. You know, when theworld really went to telehealth
when we went to tele evaluationsand teletherapy. And we seem to
forget that not everybody hasthat opportunity. And what we
see is a huge gap and divide andyou know, in that accessibility
and that service level, and, youknow, we know what COVID did to
(39:10):
the world, you know, theisolation, the cut off the
trauma, the collective trauma,the anxiety and depression, the
suicidal rates that we've, youknow, witnessed, and in just
some of the domestic violenceand abuse and in all sorts of
things and then factor in beingcut off from, you know,
traditional therapeutic, youknow, services that some folks
(39:31):
might have relied on or, or evenmedications. And, and then we
wonder why, why we're why tribalnations have stepped forward and
said, No one's going to help uswe're going to help ourselves.
And so we've seen a tremendousamount of initiatives going
forward, not just withimplementing, you know, their
own behavioral health and mentalhealth services, but also trying
(39:51):
to figure out how to connect arefolks that live out in areas
that don't have connectivitywith Wi Fi and so you see a lot
of infrastructure emphasis onboth sides of that equation.
Shauna Humphreys (40:03):
Absolutely.
And, yeah, COVID really didhighlight that. And, you know,
as tribes, we're very collectiveculture. So, you know, we get
together as families, any chancewe get, and it's not just close,
immediate family, like, youknow, extended family, you know,
we all get together at greatgrandma's house, you know, for
instance, and it a lot of itcentered around food and
(40:24):
laughter. And during COVID, youknow, nobody could meet with
their families, but for, fortribes, we're, we're collective,
and we're always used to havingseveral people around us, it
definitely highlighted that.
And, you know, one thing I wasgoing to add on the piece about,
about food, you know, in myexperience with grants, you
(40:47):
know, and everything, that's onething that always is kind of
hard for me to wrap my mindaround, like, I understand
federal funding, and, and thingslike that. But when you're
provide federal funding for atribe, like one, one way that we
show love and respect to eachother is by feeding one another,
or at least my family does that.
But most grants do not allow thepurchase of food, and things
(41:08):
like that. And so I'm not onceagain, not necessarily
complaining about that, and I dounderstand how federal funds
work. But at the same time, it'slike, if we're wanting to be a
little more culturallyappropriate with different
things, and, and have thatawareness, you know, food is a
big part of who we are as well.
Crystal Hernandez (41:30):
You know, that's, it's interesting that
you mentioned that shadow,because that's a constant area
of concern that is raised when Italk to to various tribal
nations, is that the funding isavailable, but there's so many
gaps in their understanding ofhow our culture actually works.
And the things that wouldactually work to get to the
heart of the information neededto build systems for folks to
(41:54):
use appropriately, you know, andso it kind of goes back to the
things that are built, and thenthey get mad or expect us to
use, but they're not built withus for us in mind, you know, and
so there's barriers, automaticbarriers that kind of go up
instead of realizing that ourpeople are uniquely different
sometimes, and, and what mightwork for one group might not
(42:17):
work for the other. And so thatflexibility in that
understanding that youmentioned, is so important, and
I'm hoping that we are movingtowards shifting that
understanding, and reallycreating meaningful systems that
work. So I do want to talk,Shawn, if we can about stigma,
you know, because we know, whenpeople are going to access
(42:39):
services, specifically relatedto mental health, a lot of times
we still have that stigma of ofgoing through those doors, and I
know that you were, you werementioning that earlier, you
know, they might not want to goto behavioral health, they might
not want to be seen andbehavioral buildings and those
types of things. And so stigma,you know, has been a heavy focus
(42:59):
for everyone. And kind ofcombating that and really moving
us towards a place where we cansee mental health, the same way
that we see physical health, youknow, we go to doctors for
checkups, when we have a cold oror flu, we go to the doctor,
when we need vaccination, we goto the doctor, whatever. And so
that is still not the same formental health service, we still
(43:21):
have that stigma of I'm going tobe seen, I'm going to be judged
they won't understand or thatembarrassment or fear, or
whatever, you know, tacked on tothat historical trauma that, you
know, gap in service that, youknow, transportation issue, the
lack of representation, orwhatever. And so that
compounding stigma for ourpeople, among tribal nations
(43:44):
that are seeking mental healthservices is real. And it's
really large and deep
Shauna Humphreys (43:49):
it is it's very real. And sometimes I think
some of the thinking behind itis to is that, oh, I'm having to
reach out for help. You know,because our culture is kind of
based on strength and like yousaid, taking care of things
ourself. And so I think forsome, it's also just the fact
that they're having to reach outfor help. They don't, they don't
(44:09):
want to have to do that, eventhough it's so necessary, you
know, sometimes in life. Butyes, the stigma is, is is very
real. And one thing that I willsay that seems to be helping
break that stigma is thatintegrated care service that I
talked about earlier, it's wherea counselor comes into the visit
with you when you go to thedoctor. You know, we have a lot
(44:31):
more people open about that andtalking to a counselor while
they're at the doctor kind oftreating, you know, all three in
one place. But it still doesn'ttake you know, make up for the
fact of like going to thebehavioral health clinic for
other services. You know, thereyou're being screened, kind of
giving some really briefsolution focused coping skills
and tools, but really that longterm care and treatment still
(44:54):
occurs in the behavioral healthbuilding, but reaching out for
help is never a sign forweakness. Yes, but for so many
especially for our culture, insome ways it is seen that way
(45:15):
If you or someone you know isexperiencing a mental health
crisis call the 988 suicide andcrisis lifeline, which provides
confidential 24/7 support bydialing 988.
Crystal Hernandez (45:28):
Join us next time for a discussion of
developmental disabilities andhear stories from our wonderful
guest. So Black Feathers podcastis a podcast that will occur on
a monthly basis. We hope thatyou will listen subscribe and
follow us on social media. Thankyou to Cherokee National
Treasure Tommy Wildcat for theuse of your flute music on this
(45:49):
podcast.
Shauna Humphreys (45:51):
I want to thank Lukas Fraser and tha Boys
for letting us use theirdrumming music. Please subscribe
to black feathers podcast. Youcan find us wherever podcasts
are found.
Crystal Hernandez (46:00):
We would love to hear from you and invite you
to submit your stories andquestions. Until next time.
Shauna Humphreys (46:06):
Thank you for joining us on this month's
journey. Remember none of uswalk this alone. Together. We
are stronger and it is the rootsthat bind us. Follow us on black
feathers.org
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